So I leveled my alts for the giggles... Let's talk supers.

But holy god does golden gun ever need a PvE damage buff and at least a longer duration in PvP if not additional shots.

Have you used year 2 Arachnid? Golden Gun feels much better in PvP with it on. Not that I wouldn't appreciate a buff in duration still, but it helps, especially for game modes like Trials.

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Don't nerf the others to balance (except Stormcaller, although it's better than it was); Supers SHOULD be "Super", and the Hunter's just ....aren't.

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Don't nerf the others to balance (except Stormcaller, although it's better than it was); Supers SHOULD be "Super", and the Hunter's just ....aren't.

Really? Whenever a blade dancer goes off in trials and I don't have a super, I pretty much say to myself "well there goes that round" Because blade dancers just don't die.

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Don't nerf the others to balance (except Stormcaller, although it's better than it was); Supers SHOULD be "Super", and the Hunter's just ....aren't.

Really? Whenever a blade dancer goes off in trials and I don't have a super, I pretty much say to myself "well there goes that round" Because blade dancers just don't die.

You're in Trials...without a Super...and you fear someone WITH a Super...?...Sounds reasonable and not out of place.

That's not really a fair comparison situation. Maybe I should've been clearer: my argument isn't that Hunters don't feel super "at all", but that they don't feel super relative to how other supers do. If you don't have a Super, you should fear someone with one. And I fear everyone in Trials. :P

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Don't nerf the others to balance (except Stormcaller, although it's better than it was); Supers SHOULD be "Super", and the Hunter's just ....aren't.

Really? Whenever a blade dancer goes off in trials and I don't have a super, I pretty much say to myself "well there goes that round" Because blade dancers just don't die.

You're in Trials...without a Super...and you fear someone WITH a Super...?...Sounds reasonable and not out of place.

That's not really a fair comparison situation. Maybe I should've been clearer: my argument isn't that Hunters don't feel super "at all", but that they don't feel super relative to how other supers do. If you don't have a Super, you should fear someone with one. And I fear everyone in Trials. :P

I guess I should have been more specific as well. What I'm saying is that when a super is popped (any of the multiple use supers) I basically don't feel like trying when it's a blade dancer. Other supers I can tell myself that I have a chance. That also kinda goes for Golden guns. The exception is if I have a shotgun and they round a corner, and then I feel like it's 50-50.

If a hammer is popped I still feel like I can duck behind something when a hammer is thrown or run away. If a StormCaller is popped I feel like I can at least gun him down before he gets to me. This is not the case with a blade dancer, even with help, unless you have 3-5 people helping you.

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Play as blade dancer a bit and you'll realize that you die without a kill far more often than you get more than 1 kill.

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and at least a longer duration in PvP if not additional shots.

No.

If anything, they need to cut the duration in half.

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and at least a longer duration in PvP if not additional shots.

No.

If anything, they need to cut the duration in half.

I assume you think Sunbreaker needs to be nerfed as well then? Most Hunters get 2 kills before everyone runs for cover and you can't find a third target, and if you're really unlucky you only get one target before everyone runs. I've only rarely gotten less than 3 kills with a Sunbreaker because it lasts so dang long. The extra zoom is also appreciated in Trials where so many people snipe.

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and at least a longer duration in PvP if not additional shots.

No.

If anything, they need to cut the duration in half.

I assume you think Sunbreaker needs to be nerfed as well then? Most Hunters get 2 kills before everyone runs for cover and you can't find a third target, and if you're really unlucky you only get one target before everyone runs. I've only rarely gotten less than 3 kills with a Sunbreaker because it lasts so dang long. The extra zoom is also appreciated in Trials where so many people snipe.

Yes. There's an huge disparity between "roaming" supers and the one-time-use ones. Either give every subclass one of each, or do something to better bring them in line with each other.

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and at least a longer duration in PvP if not additional shots.

No.

If anything, they need to cut the duration in half.

I assume you think Sunbreaker needs to be nerfed as well then? Most Hunters get 2 kills before everyone runs for cover and you can't find a third target, and if you're really unlucky you only get one target before everyone runs. I've only rarely gotten less than 3 kills with a Sunbreaker because it lasts so dang long. The extra zoom is also appreciated in Trials where so many people snipe.

I really need to try the hunter out because I've never seen a problem with them getting kills. I say this a lot, but whatever, I probably suck at sunbreaker but I rarely ever see 3 people to even shoot at let alone kill with my ultimate. And the people I do see are either ace snipers who one shot me or a firing line.

Personally I think supers are meant to get around 2-3 kills. Any more than that and you just got lucky.

Yes. There's an huge disparity between "roaming" supers and the one-time-use ones. Either give every subclass one of each, or do something to better bring them in line with each other.

Are you saying this against or for Hunters? Because technically Hunters have 3 duration supers. I'm kinda fudging void hunter because it only counts when it's the 3 shot bow. But regardless, when it comes to duration ults it goes:

Hunters: 3 (all three)
Warlocks: 2 (Solar, Arc)
Titans: 1 (Solar)

I guess you could also argue that the bubble is also a duration ultimate, but it's also stationary so... Yeah.

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I really need to try the hunter out because I've never seen a problem with them getting kills. I say this a lot, but whatever, I probably suck at sunbreaker but I rarely ever see 3 people to even shoot at let alone kill with my ultimate. And the people I do see are either ace snipers who one shot me or a firing line.

Personally I think supers are meant to get around 2-3 kills. Any more than that and you just got lucky.

If You don't kill at least 3 players with your super as a Bladedancer/Gunslinger, you're incompetent, or very unlucky.

Yes. There's an huge disparity between "roaming" supers and the one-time-use ones. Either give every subclass one of each, or do something to better bring them in line with each other.

Are you saying this against or for Hunters? Because technically Hunters have 3 duration supers. I'm kinda fudging void hunter because it only counts when it's the 3 shot bow.

Against. Duration supers are infinitely better then the others. No one can tell me with a straight face that they would pick Fist of Havok over Hammer of Sol, or Nova Bomb over Stormtrance.

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I really need to try the hunter out because I've never seen a problem with them getting kills. I say this a lot, but whatever, I probably suck at sunbreaker but I rarely ever see 3 people to even shoot at let alone kill with my ultimate. And the people I do see are either ace snipers who one shot me or a firing line.

Personally I think supers are meant to get around 2-3 kills. Any more than that and you just got lucky.

If You don't kill at least 3 players with your super as a Bladedancer/Gunslinger, you're incompetent, or very unlucky.

That says a lot about how good those supers are.

Yes. There's an huge disparity between "roaming" supers and the one-time-use ones. Either give every subclass one of each, or do something to better bring them in line with each other.

Are you saying this against or for Hunters? Because technically Hunters have 3 duration supers. I'm kinda fudging void hunter because it only counts when it's the 3 shot bow.

Against. Duration supers are infinitely better then the others. No one can tell me with a straight face that they would pick Fist of Havok over Hammer of Sol, or Nova Bomb over Stormtrance.

I actually prefer Fist of Havok over Hammer of Sol in Trials. Because FoH is a counter-super.

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I actually prefer Fist of Havok over Hammer of Sol in Trials. Because Fist of Panic is a counter-super.

FTFY.

Edit: At least, I end up using it as a Fist of Panic....

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I really need to try the hunter out because I've never seen a problem with them getting kills. I say this a lot, but whatever, I probably suck at sunbreaker but I rarely ever see 3 people to even shoot at let alone kill with my ultimate. And the people I do see are either ace snipers who one shot me or a firing line.

Personally I think supers are meant to get around 2-3 kills. Any more than that and you just got lucky.

If You don't kill at least 3 players with your super as a Bladedancer/Gunslinger, you're incompetent, or very unlucky.

Then I'm completely incompetent. I almost never kill 3 people with gunslinger, I rarely kill 2 people with it, and I often get killed while still in the activation animation (which, unlike titans and warlocks, still uses up my super). Also... Unless you use the acolyphage symbiote or your enemies are hugging and you use the perk to make your kills explode, it's impossible to get more than 3 kills with gg.

As a bladedancer more than 3 kills is possible (especially in control), but again - if you get killed during the activation animation you lose your super, and the number of times I get more than 2 kills is miniscule. Running away from blade dance is a viable strategy, as is just shooting him. Shotgun + melee kills a blade dancer.

Meanwhile, I've seen nova bombs and havok slams that killed all 6 players on the enemy team, which is physically impossible for bladedancer or golden gun to do. I've seen stormcallers clear the entire map and then kill those same players again as they respawned. And all of these supers are not used up if the player is killed during the activation animation. That's even nuttier. If you actually counter it, you still get supered as soon as they respawn.

Furthermore, if I want to golden gun or blade dance someone, I have to plan ahead and activate around a corner or something. If I see "hey, there's 4 dudes there!" I have to back off, activate, and then come back to have any chance at all of killing even one of them, or I have to guess that there will be more than one target just based on my radar. With a fist or nova, you just press the button and get your kills. It's really, really great.

Yes. There's an huge disparity between "roaming" supers and the one-time-use ones. Either give every subclass one of each, or do something to better bring them in line with each other.

Are you saying this against or for Hunters? Because technically Hunters have 3 duration supers. I'm kinda fudging void hunter because it only counts when it's the 3 shot bow.

Against. Duration supers are infinitely better then the others. No one can tell me with a straight face that they would pick Fist of Havok over Hammer of Sol, or Nova Bomb over Stormtrance.

You're wrong wrong wrong about hunter supers. I agree that hammer of sol is awesome and stormtrance is overpowered, but golden gun especially and blade dance to a lesser degree are both severely underpowered in comparison.

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At least you have the courage to admit it.

I deleted my hunter. I had an avg. K/D of 2.4, but the Hunter is so PvP-oriented that it's actually not very much fun at all in PvE (this was before nightstalkers were a thing), where I spent the majority of my play-time.

When I popped my super as a Bladedancer in the crucible, I was an unstoppable killing machine. Blink + Regenerating health on kills + an absurd melee lock-on meant all you had to do was find enemies and spam Left bumper. It was unfair. It's still unfair. I feel way more confident facing down a stormlock then I do a Bladedancer, since they have so much less maneuverability.

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At least you have the courage to admit it.

I deleted my hunter. I had an avg. K/D of 2.4, but the Hunter is so PvP-oriented that it's actually not very much fun at all in PvE (this was before nightstalkers were a thing), where I spent the majority of my play-time.

When I popped my super as a Bladedancer in the crucible, I was an unstoppable killing machine. Blink + Regenerating health on kills + an absurd melee lock-on meant all you had to do was find enemies and spam Left bumper. It was unfair. It's still unfair. I feel way more confident facing down a stormlock then I do a Bladedancer, since they have so much less maneuverability.

How long ago did you use them? When the game launched it was much more likely that I would get 3 kills with golden gun and that everyone would panic against a Bladedancer. Lately people turn and shoot at me or just run and hide when I pop golden gun because it's become second nature when they hear the activation sound. Similar with Bladedancer, I kill a lot more now then I did at launch (though with Hungering Blade it's still a crapshoot). The supers are still good, but players' experience has made them less useful.

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I really need to try the hunter out because I've never seen a problem with them getting kills. I say this a lot, but whatever, I probably suck at sunbreaker but I rarely ever see 3 people to even shoot at let alone kill with my ultimate. And the people I do see are either ace snipers who one shot me or a firing line.

Personally I think supers are meant to get around 2-3 kills. Any more than that and you just got lucky.

If You don't kill at least 3 players with your super as a Bladedancer/Gunslinger, you're incompetent, or very unlucky.

Then I'm completely incompetent. I almost never kill 3 people with gunslinger, I rarely kill 2 people with it, and I often get killed while still in the activation animation (which, unlike titans and warlocks, still uses up my super). Also... Unless you use the acolyphage symbiote or your enemies are hugging and you use the perk to make your kills explode, it's impossible to get more than 3 kills with gg.

As a bladedancer more than 3 kills is possible (especially in control), but again - if you get killed during the activation animation you lose your super, and the number of times I get more than 2 kills is miniscule.

Running away from blade dance is a viable strategy, as is just shooting him. Shotgun + melee kills a blade dancer.

I've died so many times trying either of these methods.

Meanwhile, I've seen nova bombs and havok slams that killed all 6 players on the enemy team, which is physically impossible for bladedancer or golden gun to do.

That team was REALLY REALLY stupid. Nova bomb I can kinda see cause it's ranged. But 6 players are totally unaware or just plain stupid if they 1. can't gun down a titan running at them and 2. aren't smart enough to realize that a lone titan running at 6 bunched players doesn't mean they should just stand there.

I've seen stormcallers clear the entire map and then kill those same players again as they respawned.

Totally doable.

And all of these supers are not used up if the player is killed during the activation animation. That's even nuttier. If you actually counter it, you still get supered as soon as they respawn.

That is true for Nova Bomb and FoH.

Furthermore, if I want to golden gun or blade dance someone, I have to plan ahead and activate around a corner or something. If I see "hey, there's 4 dudes there!" I have to back off, activate, and then come back to have any chance at all of killing even one of them, or I have to guess that there will be more than one target just based on my radar. With a fist or nova, you just press the button and get your kills. It's really, really great.

HAHAHAHAH. I'm sorry, but that' called Fist of Panic, not Fist of Havoc. There is a CLEAR distinction between those two (I don't know what the nova Bomb version would be called).

1. Fist of Panic is when you, go figure, panic. This happens when something (not things) are thrown at you at close range and you have to mash buttons.

2. Fist of Havoc is when you have to run, dodge, jump and try not to become a bullet ridden corpse before you get within range of multiple enemies to actually use your super.

Also, Sun Breaker has to do the same thing. It's suicide to pop your super next to people.

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I get it, you think hunters are OP because you played bladedancer once. But I think you're missing the entire point of my argument.

I just ran around with sunbreaker and stormcaller and their supers are grossly more powerful than their hunter counterparts. My argument isn't that golden gun can't kill people. My argument is that golden gun sucks balls compared to hammer of sol. My argument isn't that blade dancers can't kill people. My argument is that stormcaller is better in every conceivable way than bladedancer.

Are you disagreeing with those statements? Do you think 7 hammers which explode and track is less powerful than 3 golden gun shots? Do you think a mini fist of havok aoe blast followed by ranged attacks that chain automatically and a character that moves faster than the fastest running character is less powerful than melee range, single target attacks from a character that moves at his normal speed?

PvP aside, do you think a golden gun shot should be unable to kill a red health wizard? Do you think three golden gun blasts (the entire super) should not be able to kill a single yellow health bar phalanx while dealing zero damage to any other enemy? Do you think successfully landing the shots should generate zero orbs for your team because no enemies died?

For the record: I think sunbreaker should be considered the gold standard for super balance. It feels super but it doesn't feel cheap. I think nova bomb and fist of havok are fine. I think defender bubble, sunsinger self-res, and shadowshot are all fine as well. But I really think stormcaller needs to be nerfed and I think golden gun *at least* needs a PvE buff (and I'd like it if the duration lasted longer or you could fire more shots during that duration) and I think bladedancer needs a PvE buff as well. If they ever figure out how to fix melee hit detection on blade dancer, it will be fine for PvP, but the hit detection has been broken since 2.0 and the latest fix made it different, but not better.

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I get it, you think hunters are OP because you played bladedancer once. But I think you're missing the entire point of my argument.

I've actually never played a hunter in PvP before :-) I just have played against them. A Lot. And I never said they were OP.

I'm also going to take stormcallers out the the equation for the rest of this debate because I totally agree that stormcallers are pretty much amazing at everything.

I just ran around with sunbreaker and stormcaller and their supers are grossly more powerful than their hunter counterparts. My argument isn't that golden gun can't kill people. My argument is that golden gun sucks balls compared to hammer of sol.

I agree that Sunbreakers have the potential to get more kills. But I would argue, at least in every time I've played them, that sunbreakers don't actually get that many kills. For several reasons:
1. Their super cue is much more noticeable
2. It's easier to run from/dodge a hammer throw than a golden gun shot
3. against other supers, it takes two hammers that fire really slow to kill

My argument isn't that blade dancers can't kill people. My argument is that stormcaller is better in every conceivable way than bladedancer.

I completely agree with you on this, with the exception that bladedancers have a little more tankiness.

Are you disagreeing with those statements?

Some, yes.

Do you think 7 hammers which explode and track is less powerful than 3 golden gun shots?

For one, 7 hammer shots is if you start throwing upon activating the ultimate and never stopping. I don't know how long a hunter has to wait before he loses a GG shot, but I would say a titan loses a hammer every 2-3 seconds (it's hard to say in the heat of battle, I haven't checked). But to answer you original question, that hard to say what is more "powerful" that is purely dependent on the situation. Hammers are more powerful if you have guys clustered, if guys aren't running away from you, if it's a smaller map or if there aren't many sniping lanes. There are lots of cases where hammers are just plain terrible at. One of those cases is Hammer vs GG.

Do you think a mini fist of havok aoe blast followed by ranged attacks that chain automatically and a character that moves faster than the fastest running character is less powerful than melee range, single target attacks from a character that moves at his normal speed?

I'm assuming you are talking about Stormcaller vs a Bladedancer. If so, I totally agree with you.

PvP aside, do you think a golden gun shot should be unable to kill a red health wizard?

Nope.

Do you think three golden gun blasts (the entire super) should not be able to kill a single yellow health bar phalanx while dealing zero damage to any other enemy?

No, but there are also few supers that can actually do that.

Do you think successfully landing the shots should generate zero orbs for your team because no enemies died?

Yes, because to change that would seriously brake the orb generating mechanic. I really wish SunBreakers would generate more orbs, but it's actually not easy to generate orbs with a Sunbreaker.

For the record: I think sunbreaker should be considered the gold standard for super balance. It feels super but it doesn't feel cheap. I think nova bomb and fist of havok are fine. I think defender bubble, sunsinger self-res, and shadowshot are all fine as well. But I really think stormcaller needs to be nerfed

I agree.

and I think golden gun *at least* needs a PvE buff

But how would you do that? I mean giving it more damage would put it as one of the few supers that can kill armored guys in an ult as it's basic attribute. Which personally if there is a super that could do that it would make sense that the GG could.

(and I'd like it if the duration lasted longer or you could fire more shots during that duration)

See, I'm on the fence with this. I think GG is not great compared to Stormcaller and SunBreakers in terms of mass killing. However, like FoH, I think it's a great counter super for duration supers. In fact, I think it's the best super for that. Fist of Panic is great, but it's only really good for killing bladedancers or stopping a revive in trials. GG has it's place and it's REALLY good at it. I've finally come to terms with the bubble. It's really good at what it does and really sub par at other things.

and I think bladedancer needs a PvE buff as well. If they ever figure out how to fix melee hit detection on blade dancer, it will be fine for PvP, but the hit detection has been broken since 2.0 and the latest fix made it different, but not better.

I can't speak for Bladedancers in PvE but I will say, bladedancers have NEVER had a problem killing me in PvP. And I've tried everything to get away from them. Running, jumping, even twilight garrisoning. But again, I will say, I've never played a bladedancer in PvP so I really don't know what it's like to be on the other side.

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I get it, you think hunters are OP because you played bladedancer once. But I think you're missing the entire point of my argument.

I've actually never played a hunter in PvP before :-) I just have played against them. A Lot. And I never said they were OP.

I'm also going to take stormcallers out the the equation for the rest of this debate because I totally agree that stormcallers are pretty much amazing at everything.

I just ran around with sunbreaker and stormcaller and their supers are grossly more powerful than their hunter counterparts. My argument isn't that golden gun can't kill people. My argument is that golden gun sucks balls compared to hammer of sol.

I agree that Sunbreakers have the potential to get more kills. But I would argue, at least in every time I've played them, that sunbreakers don't actually get that many kills. For several reasons:
1. Their super cue is much more noticeable
2. It's easier to run from/dodge a hammer throw than a golden gun shot
3. against other supers, it takes two hammers that fire really slow to kill

My argument isn't that blade dancers can't kill people. My argument is that stormcaller is better in every conceivable way than bladedancer.

I completely agree with you on this, with the exception that bladedancers have a little more tankiness.

Are you disagreeing with those statements?

Some, yes.

Do you think 7 hammers which explode and track is less powerful than 3 golden gun shots?

For one, 7 hammer shots is if you start throwing upon activating the ultimate and never stopping. I don't know how long a hunter has to wait before he loses a GG shot, but I would say a titan loses a hammer every 2-3 seconds (it's hard to say in the heat of battle, I haven't checked). But to answer you original question, that hard to say what is more "powerful" that is purely dependent on the situation. Hammers are more powerful if you have guys clustered, if guys aren't running away from you, if it's a smaller map or if there aren't many sniping lanes. There are lots of cases where hammers are just plain terrible at. One of those cases is Hammer vs GG.

Do you think a mini fist of havok aoe blast followed by ranged attacks that chain automatically and a character that moves faster than the fastest running character is less powerful than melee range, single target attacks from a character that moves at his normal speed?

I'm assuming you are talking about Stormcaller vs a Bladedancer. If so, I totally agree with you.

PvP aside, do you think a golden gun shot should be unable to kill a red health wizard?

Nope.

Do you think three golden gun blasts (the entire super) should not be able to kill a single yellow health bar phalanx while dealing zero damage to any other enemy?

No, but there are also few supers that can actually do that.

Do you think successfully landing the shots should generate zero orbs for your team because no enemies died?

Yes, because to change that would seriously brake the orb generating mechanic. I really wish SunBreakers would generate more orbs, but it's actually not easy to generate orbs with a Sunbreaker.

For the record: I think sunbreaker should be considered the gold standard for super balance. It feels super but it doesn't feel cheap. I think nova bomb and fist of havok are fine. I think defender bubble, sunsinger self-res, and shadowshot are all fine as well. But I really think stormcaller needs to be nerfed

I agree.

and I think golden gun *at least* needs a PvE buff

But how would you do that? I mean giving it more damage would put it as one of the few supers that can kill armored guys in an ult as it's basic attribute. Which personally if there is a super that could do that it would make sense that the GG could.

(and I'd like it if the duration lasted longer or you could fire more shots during that duration)

See, I'm on the fence with this. I think GG is not great compared to Stormcaller and SunBreakers in terms of mass killing. However, like FoH, I think it's a great counter super for duration supers. In fact, I think it's the best super for that. Fist of Panic is great, but it's only really good for killing bladedancers or stopping a revive in trials. GG has it's place and it's REALLY good at it. I've finally come to terms with the bubble. It's really good at what it does and really sub par at other things.

and I think bladedancer needs a PvE buff as well. If they ever figure out how to fix melee hit detection on blade dancer, it will be fine for PvP, but the hit detection has been broken since 2.0 and the latest fix made it different, but not better.

I can't speak for Bladedancers in PvE but I will say, bladedancers have NEVER had a problem killing me in PvP. And I've tried everything to get away from them. Running, jumping, even twilight garrisoning. But again, I will say, I've never played a bladedancer in PvP so I really don't know what it's like to be on the other side.

Please go play as a hunter for a bit. It will really help you to get perspective on these supers. My initial post was in reaction to having finally leveled up and played my titan and warlock, and it's much easier to get a sense of the abilities when you walk a mile in those shoes.

Also, a bit more info:

So golden gun lasts for 3 shots or 10 seconds, whichever happens first.

Also, golden gun will not kill a titan who has a juggernaut shield up.

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Recently started leveling my Gunslinger up (two IBs ago, IIRC). It has given me a whole new perspective on Golden Gun. It used to feel cheap and OP in PvP, somewhat useless in PvE.

I can now see it is a very skill-oriented Super in PvP (give or take a few lag-induced hit-detection shenanigans) and that spitting on the TV is more useful than it in PvE.

PS: I love these knives more than Bloom on my Voidwalker. And that's saying something.

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Recently started leveling my Gunslinger up (two IBs ago, IIRC). It has given me a whole new perspective on Golden Gun. It used to feel cheap and OP in PvP, somewhat useless in PvE.

I can now see it is a very skill-oriented Super in PvP (give or take a few lag-induced hit-detection shenanigans) and that spitting on the TV is more useful than it in PvE.

PS: I love these knives more than Bloom on my Voidwalker. And that's saying something.

So I finally started leveling up my Baby Hunter yesterday. And I have found out two things already:

1. Knives are a lot of fun. And they are both really easy to precision kill with and hard. Also it's impossible to freaking hit a vex juice box with them!

2. Golden gun does indeed do precision damage, it just doesn't show a yellow number. I recorded two examples :-)

My only two examples are on unarmored knights, but. It's pretty obvious I hit a precision shot with the GG.

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Recently started leveling my Gunslinger up (two IBs ago, IIRC). It has given me a whole new perspective on Golden Gun. It used to feel cheap and OP in PvP, somewhat useless in PvE.

I can now see it is a very skill-oriented Super in PvP (give or take a few lag-induced hit-detection shenanigans) and that spitting on the TV is more useful than it in PvE.

PS: I love these knives more than Bloom on my Voidwalker. And that's saying something.

So I finally started leveling up my Baby Hunter yesterday. And I have found out two things already:

1. Knives are a lot of fun. And they are both really easy to precision kill with and hard. Also it's impossible to freaking hit a vex juice box with them!

2. Golden gun does indeed do precision damage, it just doesn't show a yellow number. I recorded two examples :-)

My only two examples are on unarmored knights, but. It's pretty obvious I hit a precision shot with the GG.

Crazy. That second clip is certainly clear. 680 on the first two shots, 1360 on the last one, so 2x damage with the precision hit. Good research!

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Crazy. That second clip is certainly clear. 680 on the first two shots, 1360 on the last one, so 2x damage with the precision hit. Good research!

It's funny cause I was just playing and I noticed that I one shotted the knights. And I was like... that's not supposed to happen! I HAVE PROOF!! record record record!

I'm going to keep leveling up my Hunter and see what kind of a bonus I get for yellow guys. Also, I wonder if you can get precision shots through a Phalanx shield? Talk about good aiming :-)

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and I think golden gun *at least* needs a PvE buff

But how would you do that? I mean giving it more damage would put it as one of the few supers that can kill armored guys in an ult as it's basic attribute. Which personally if there is a super that could do that it would make sense that the GG could.

Maybe this?

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and I think golden gun *at least* needs a PvE buff

But how would you do that? I mean giving it more damage would put it as one of the few supers that can kill armored guys in an ult as it's basic attribute. Which personally if there is a super that could do that it would make sense that the GG could.

Maybe this?

Yeah, but then you would have to make that PvE specific because that would be way to OP in PvP and I highly doubt Bungie would do that :-)

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and I think golden gun *at least* needs a PvE buff

But how would you do that? I mean giving it more damage would put it as one of the few supers that can kill armored guys in an ult as it's basic attribute. Which personally if there is a super that could do that it would make sense that the GG could.

Maybe this?

Yeah, but then you would have to make that PvE specific because that would be way to OP in PvP and I highly doubt Bungie would do that :-)

They already have perks, albeit on armor (weapons?), that trigger when killing minions of darkness, why not the same for a super's perk? (or maybe that could be the perk for an exotic).

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Nova Bomb over Stormtrance.

Ohai, did you call me?

Seriously, though, while I know Stormtrance is more OP, I'd rather have a long-range Super. By a long shot. Pun somewhat intended.

The high point of my PvP career was Raga incredulously asking me how the hell I made that shallow-angle-into-B Nova shot on Black Shield.

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Nova Bomb over Stormtrance.

Ohai, did you call me?

Seriously, though, while I know Stormtrance is more OP, I'd rather have a long-range Super. By a long shot. Pun somewhat intended.

The high point of my PvP career was Raga incredulously asking me how the hell I made that shallow-angle-into-B Nova shot on Black Shield.

I wish there was an ability for Hammers that allows you to throw them with no arc like the nova bomb ability. Then I can snipe with hammers. There are have been sooooo many times I've wanted to throw a hammer and there is a stupid door frame in the way. Long hallways and low ceilings are curses to Sunbreakers.

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Nova Bomb over Stormtrance.

Ohai, did you call me?

Seriously, though, while I know Stormtrance is more OP, I'd rather have a long-range Super. By a long shot. Pun somewhat intended.

The high point of my PvP career was Raga incredulously asking me how the hell I made that shallow-angle-into-B Nova shot on Black Shield.

I wish there was an ability for Hammers that allows you to throw them with no arc like the nova bomb ability. Then I can snipe with hammers. There are have been sooooo many times I've wanted to throw a hammer and there is a stupid door frame in the way. Long hallways and low ceilings are curses to Sunbreakers.

I am the worst with shadowshot. I stand in a doorway, see three guys on the other side, fire shadowshot, and hit the stupid doorway because my hunter inexplicably jumps 3 feet into the air. Stoopid huntards.

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Luckily (is it?), I've had a full year of practice on my Warlock. It definitely paid off, given I have yet to hit the ceiling with the Nightstalker.

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I've nova'd my own face soooo many times.

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The high point of my PvP career was Raga incredulously asking me how the hell I made that shallow-angle-into-B Nova shot on Black Shield.

Heh. I seem to be the high point of several people's Destiny experience... :p

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A few thoughts:

Shadowshot is absolutely fantastic. It may not do much on its own, but that's a minor detail. You should have seen what Shadowshot + Dark-Drinker did to the Hall of Majors on Undying Mind last night. :)

I... might agree on Arcblade. I'd argue it is pretty capable against mobs with encore turned on. But only with encore. And it's not particularly good against a single hard target. For example a major Captain, which plenty of other supers would wipe out easily. I say "might agree" because I wonder if maybe not all supers need to be good in the same way. Maybe it's ok for some to be good against big targets and some to be good against mobs.

I do think Golden Gun could use a bit of a buff in PvE. Because as you said, right now the only enemies that will die from 1 shot are enemies that could probably be dealt with just as quickly with a hand cannon. It typically won't even 1-shot a minor Wizard, which it should IMO (and am I crazy, or did that actually work once upon a time?). And unlike Arcblade, Golden Gun is not good against mobs. BTW, this is why I almost always run Celestial Nighthawk. It essentially doubles your potential damage output. OK, it's limited to one target, barring a bit of Keyhole luck, but that one target is definitely going to have a bad time. There's not many enemies that will survive a Nighthawk shot, matching shield types or not. And it'll put a big dent in boss characters' health bars. Achlyophage Symbiote can also provide a bit of extra damage if you don't have Nighthawk.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Fist of Havok, which seems fairly useless in PvE lately, to me. Often it won't kill a single major Captain, unless the shockwave (which is an optional perk) hits them JUST right. I dunno, but I feel like it should be able to do that. Luckily the Striker has some great tactical options so i still have fun playing it, but I usually won't FoH into a group unless they've been softened up a LOT first.

Don't you dare nerf my damn Stormcaller! If some of the other supers need a buff so they don't feel useless, that's fine. But The Emperor feels exactly like he should, thank you very much.

As always, my opinions are solely PvE-based.

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I do think Golden Gun could use a bit of a buff in PvE. Because as you said, right now the only enemies that will die from 1 shot are enemies that could probably be dealt with just as quickly with a hand cannon. It typically won't even 1-shot a minor Wizard, which it should IMO (and am I crazy, or did that actually work once upon a time?). And unlike Arcblade, Golden Gun is not good against mobs. BTW, this is why I almost always run Celestial Nighthawk. It essentially doubles your potential damage output. OK, it's limited to one target, barring a bit of Keyhole luck, but that one target is definitely going to have a bad time. There's not many enemies that will survive a Nighthawk shot, matching shield types or not. And it'll put a big dent in boss characters' health bars. Achlyophage Symbiote can also provide a bit of extra damage if you don't have Nighthawk.

What about adding a triple-tap like perk or maybe double-tap? Although it would have to be limited to minions of darkness.

Edit: I realize this won't really help with the minor wizards (which I feel should drop to a super).

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I do think Golden Gun could use a bit of a buff in PvE. Because as you said, right now the only enemies that will die from 1 shot are enemies that could probably be dealt with just as quickly with a hand cannon. It typically won't even 1-shot a minor Wizard, which it should IMO (and am I crazy, or did that actually work once upon a time?). And unlike Arcblade, Golden Gun is not good against mobs. BTW, this is why I almost always run Celestial Nighthawk. It essentially doubles your potential damage output. OK, it's limited to one target, barring a bit of Keyhole luck, but that one target is definitely going to have a bad time. There's not many enemies that will survive a Nighthawk shot, matching shield types or not. And it'll put a big dent in boss characters' health bars. Achlyophage Symbiote can also provide a bit of extra damage if you don't have Nighthawk.

When I think of golden gun in PvE I think of it as being the best super for taking out strong armored enemies. Isn't it the super that does the most damage to them? I know for a fact that nova bomb and FoH can't one shot yellows. Even Sunbreaker with all hammers barely kills one.

Not to mention, a super doesn't have to be good at everything. I mean look at the bubble titan. Or the sunsinger. Supers can have niche areas. I mean, I thought one of the reason they added the void hunter was to help out in PvE.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Fist of Havok, which seems fairly useless in PvE lately, to me. Often it won't kill a single major Captain, unless the shockwave (which is an optional perk) hits them JUST right. I dunno, but I feel like it should be able to do that. Luckily the Striker has some great tactical options so i still have fun playing it, but I usually won't FoH into a group unless they've been softened up a LOT first.

Yeah, FoH in PvE is made for mob killing. The sad thing is, sunbreaker is just a lot better all around in PvE for both mob killing and using against stronger enemies.

I feel like they could change this by making it do a ton of damage right at the point of impact and have the damage fall of pretty fast. This way you can still do damage to a single target (or a ton of guys massed in a really small area) as well as be able to kill lesser mobs in a small area. It also kind fits with how it works and feels.

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When I think of golden gun in PvE I think of it as being the best super for taking out strong armored enemies. Isn't it the super that does the most damage to them?

Uh, no? Ran a Vanguard Heroic SABER strike last Friday as 330 Hunter and a red-bar Servitor wouldn't die to a full Golden Gun. Hell, Phalanxes on this week's Challenge of Elder didn't die to a single shot.

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When I think of golden gun in PvE I think of it as being the best super for taking out strong armored enemies. Isn't it the super that does the most damage to them?

Uh, no? Ran a Vanguard Heroic SABER strike last Friday as 330 Hunter and a red-bar Servitor wouldn't die to a full Golden Gun. Hell, Phalanxes on this week's Challenge of Elder didn't die to a single shot.

Is that even with a precision shot? Also, I don't think servitors die to a FoH either though. They might die to 3-4 hammers. As for the the Phalanxes, it takes like 3-4 hammers for them too, which is only helpful because the hammer has splash which can kill 3 phalanxes with a super. However, I'm betting that 3 precision gold gun shots does more damage than hitting a boss with 5-6 hammers. I haven't done the numbers, or even used the golden gun before... but just my guesstimation :-)

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When I think of golden gun in PvE I think of it as being the best super for taking out strong armored enemies. Isn't it the super that does the most damage to them?

Uh, no? Ran a Vanguard Heroic SABER strike last Friday as 330 Hunter and a red-bar Servitor wouldn't die to a full Golden Gun. Hell, Phalanxes on this week's Challenge of Elder didn't die to a single shot.

Is that even with a precision shot? Also, I don't think servitors die to a FoH either though. They might die to 3-4 hammers. As for the the Phalanxes, it takes like 3-4 hammers for them too, which is only helpful because the hammer has splash which can kill 3 phalanxes with a super. However, I'm betting that 3 precision gold gun shots does more damage than hitting a boss with 5-6 hammers. I haven't done the numbers, or even used the golden gun before... but just my guesstimation :-)

There is no precision damage boost to golden gun. It does less damage than a sniper rifle, and that's really all you need to know about it.

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When I think of golden gun in PvE I think of it as being the best super for taking out strong armored enemies. Isn't it the super that does the most damage to them?

Uh, no? Ran a Vanguard Heroic SABER strike last Friday as 330 Hunter and a red-bar Servitor wouldn't die to a full Golden Gun. Hell, Phalanxes on this week's Challenge of Elder didn't die to a single shot.

Is that even with a precision shot? Also, I don't think servitors die to a FoH either though. They might die to 3-4 hammers. As for the the Phalanxes, it takes like 3-4 hammers for them too, which is only helpful because the hammer has splash which can kill 3 phalanxes with a super. However, I'm betting that 3 precision gold gun shots does more damage than hitting a boss with 5-6 hammers. I haven't done the numbers, or even used the golden gun before... but just my guesstimation :-)

There is no precision damage boost to golden gun. It does less damage than a sniper rifle, and that's really all you need to know about it.

O really? I thought it was the only super that could get precision damage.

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When I think of golden gun in PvE I think of it as being the best super for taking out strong armored enemies. Isn't it the super that does the most damage to them?

Uh, no? Ran a Vanguard Heroic SABER strike last Friday as 330 Hunter and a red-bar Servitor wouldn't die to a full Golden Gun. Hell, Phalanxes on this week's Challenge of Elder didn't die to a single shot.

Is that even with a precision shot? Also, I don't think servitors die to a FoH either though. They might die to 3-4 hammers. As for the the Phalanxes, it takes like 3-4 hammers for them too, which is only helpful because the hammer has splash which can kill 3 phalanxes with a super. However, I'm betting that 3 precision gold gun shots does more damage than hitting a boss with 5-6 hammers. I haven't done the numbers, or even used the golden gun before... but just my guesstimation :-)

There is no precision damage boost to golden gun. It does less damage than a sniper rifle, and that's really all you need to know about it.

O really? I thought it was the only super that could get precision damage.

I am sorry to say that you were misinformed.

I did think of one nice thing, which is golden gun hurts phalanxes through their shields. That's something, I guess.

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When I think of golden gun in PvE I think of it as being the best super for taking out strong armored enemies. Isn't it the super that does the most damage to them?

Uh, no? Ran a Vanguard Heroic SABER strike last Friday as 330 Hunter and a red-bar Servitor wouldn't die to a full Golden Gun. Hell, Phalanxes on this week's Challenge of Elder didn't die to a single shot.

Is that even with a precision shot? Also, I don't think servitors die to a FoH either though. They might die to 3-4 hammers. As for the the Phalanxes, it takes like 3-4 hammers for them too, which is only helpful because the hammer has splash which can kill 3 phalanxes with a super. However, I'm betting that 3 precision gold gun shots does more damage than hitting a boss with 5-6 hammers. I haven't done the numbers, or even used the golden gun before... but just my guesstimation :-)

There is no precision damage boost to golden gun. It does less damage than a sniper rifle, and that's really all you need to know about it.

Significantly less. I was playing CoE last night, and my 1kys did 12k/shot, while the golden gun did less than 8k (on the boss).

I ended up using it on redbar taken, because at least I generated a few orbs for my teammates.

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I do think Golden Gun could use a bit of a buff in PvE. Because as you said, right now the only enemies that will die from 1 shot are enemies that could probably be dealt with just as quickly with a hand cannon. It typically won't even 1-shot a minor Wizard, which it should IMO (and am I crazy, or did that actually work once upon a time?). And unlike Arcblade, Golden Gun is not good against mobs. BTW, this is why I almost always run Celestial Nighthawk. It essentially doubles your potential damage output. OK, it's limited to one target, barring a bit of Keyhole luck, but that one target is definitely going to have a bad time. There's not many enemies that will survive a Nighthawk shot, matching shield types or not. And it'll put a big dent in boss characters' health bars. Achlyophage Symbiote can also provide a bit of extra damage if you don't have Nighthawk.

When I think of golden gun in PvE I think of it as being the best super for taking out strong armored enemies. Isn't it the super that does the most damage to them? I know for a fact that nova bomb and FoH can't one shot yellows. Even Sunbreaker with all hammers barely kills one.

Golden gun does less damage than sniper criticals. The only situations where golden gun is useful in pve are for popping solar shields or for very specific fights where you want to use the Celestial Nighthawk. In both of those scenarios, you're not killing your target, just doing a small burst of damage to it, which means no orbs for your teammates.

For golden gun to kill a yellow enemy, you have to fire all three shots into it, and even then the higher HP yellow enemies will still be alive, if only barely. Again, it generates no orbs if the shots don't kill.

Not to mention, a super doesn't have to be good at everything. I mean look at the bubble titan. Or the sunsinger. Supers can have niche areas. I mean, I thought one of the reason they added the void hunter was to help out in PvE.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Fist of Havok, which seems fairly useless in PvE lately, to me. Often it won't kill a single major Captain, unless the shockwave (which is an optional perk) hits them JUST right. I dunno, but I feel like it should be able to do that. Luckily the Striker has some great tactical options so i still have fun playing it, but I usually won't FoH into a group unless they've been softened up a LOT first.

I use aftermath, so if you slam a captain the pulse gets him. FoH is great when you're getting swarmed by enemies and it provides a solid respite, but you're right that it's not as useful as hammer of sol.

Yeah, FoH in PvE is made for mob killing. The sad thing is, sunbreaker is just a lot better all around in PvE for both mob killing and using against stronger enemies.

I feel like they could change this by making it do a ton of damage right at the point of impact and have the damage fall of pretty fast. This way you can still do damage to a single target (or a ton of guys massed in a really small area) as well as be able to kill lesser mobs in a small area. It also kind fits with how it works and feels.

I think that would be a good change too.

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But holy god does golden gun ever need a PvE damage buff and at least a longer duration in PvP if not additional shots.

Have you used year 2 Arachnid? Golden Gun feels much better in PvP with it on. Not that I wouldn't appreciate a buff in duration still, but it helps, especially for game modes like Trials.

Why did you edit my original post instead of just replying? Now I can't even see what I wrote.

Also, WHY DID YOU TURN ON EMAIL NOTIFICATIONS YOU HORRIBLE PERSON?

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But holy god does golden gun ever need a PvE damage buff and at least a longer duration in PvP if not additional shots.

Have you used year 2 Arachnid? Golden Gun feels much better in PvP with it on. Not that I wouldn't appreciate a buff in duration still, but it helps, especially for game modes like Trials.

Why did you edit my original post instead of just replying? Now I can't even see what I wrote.

Also, WHY DID YOU TURN ON EMAIL NOTIFICATIONS YOU HORRIBLE PERSON?

Because I'm dumb, and when I did it on my phone I apparently hit the wrong button... sorry. I turned off notifications, and I'm seeing if I can get the original post back.

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But holy god does golden gun ever need a PvE damage buff and at least a longer duration in PvP if not additional shots.

Have you used year 2 Arachnid? Golden Gun feels much better in PvP with it on. Not that I wouldn't appreciate a buff in duration still, but it helps, especially for game modes like Trials.

Why did you edit my original post instead of just replying? Now I can't even see what I wrote.

Also, WHY DID YOU TURN ON EMAIL NOTIFICATIONS YOU HORRIBLE PERSON?

Because I'm dumb, and when I did it on my phone I apparently hit the wrong button... sorry. I turned off notifications, and I'm seeing if I can get the original post back.

Thanks :)

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But holy god does golden gun ever need a PvE damage buff and at least a longer duration in PvP if not additional shots.

Have you used year 2 Arachnid? Golden Gun feels much better in PvP with it on. Not that I wouldn't appreciate a buff in duration still, but it helps, especially for game modes like Trials.

Why did you edit my original post instead of just replying? Now I can't even see what I wrote.

Also, WHY DID YOU TURN ON EMAIL NOTIFICATIONS YOU HORRIBLE PERSON?

Because I'm dumb, and when I did it on my phone I apparently hit the wrong button... sorry. I turned off notifications, and I'm seeing if I can get the original post back.

Thanks :)

I'm actually confused about this one, because I quoted your original post... I never manually add quotes, so I have no idea how it happened this time...

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So I leveled my alts for the giggles... Let's talk supers. (Destiny)

Yep.

Ditto, except I love Shadowshot

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