How's that new model working out?

House of wolves arrived a year ago today.

Just take a look at the amount and quality of content dropped after each year's respective large releases. What did we get post launch in year one? What did we get post TTK in year two? Compare.

How are those microtransactions working out again? Oh, they didn't do shit? I'm so surprised.

locked

1838 views

- No text -

locked

1655 views

Lol. I typed up this post around when the change was announced, and have been waiting until today to post it :-p

locked

1726 views

- No text -

locked

1616 views

- No text -

locked

1610 views

House of wolves arrived a year ago today.

Just take a look at the amount and quality of content dropped after each year's respective large releases. What did we get post launch in year one? What did we get post TTK in year two? Compare.

How are those microtransactions working out again? Oh, they didn't do shit? I'm so surprised.

Destiny Year 1: $100
Nine total strikes, Two Raids, PoE, seven new Crucible maps.

Destiny Year 2: $40
Nine total Strikes, One Raid, PoE 2, Three free events (Festival, Sparrow Racing, Crimson Doubles). Nine new Crucible maps.

I'd say content-wise, we're doing pretty well in Year 2, thanks to the Microtransacrtions.

=================

(Let's Break it down piece by piece)

Destiny: $60

-Six Strikes, Raid. Not much else.

Dark Below: $20

-Two Strikes, Raid, public event, not much else.

House of Wolves: $20

-One Strike, PoE, Trials of Osiris, Public Event, not much else.

Total: $100
Nine Strikes total, Two Raids. two public events, Trials, Not much else.

The Taken King: $40

-Seven Strikes total (Four new Strikes, Three remixed Strikes), Raid, decent campaign.

-Enter Microtransactions- $0

Two Strikes total (One new Strike, one remixed strike), Festival of the Lost, Sparrow Racing League, Crimson Doubles event, Prison of Elders 2.0.

Total:$40
Nine Strikes total (Five new Strikes, Four remixed Strikes), Raid, Three special events, revamped Prison of Elders.

Checkmate, Cody. ;)

locked

1736 views

- No text -

locked

1629 views

Destiny Year 1: $100
Nine total strikes, Two Raids, PoE, seven new Crucible maps.

Destiny Year 2: $40
Nine total Strikes, One Raid, PoE 2, Three free events (Festival, Sparrow Racing, Crimson Doubles). Nine new Crucible maps.

I'd say content-wise, we're doing pretty well in Year 2, thanks to the Microtransacrtions.

Why are you counting the launch and TTK? Launch was the game paid in full, and TTK was the paid expansion. Microtransactions had nothing to do with either. We are looking post large release here. We are talking about additional content in the form of DLC.

In year two we got one new strike, an addon to the worst PvE endgame mode, zero new crucible maps, a racing game that you can't even play anymore, and two tower skins.

That doesn't stack up at all to what Dark Below and HoW gave us. Sure we paid more, but you get what you pay for.

locked

1724 views

...comparing it to Bungie's Halos gives us a much clearer picture of what we did or didn't get. With Destiny:

- We got drastically more ongoing support which included feature additions, bug fixes, multiplayer networking changes, and (I believe) at least six free multiplayer maps.

- Destiny currently has as many multiplayer maps as Halo 3 ended up with and three more than Reach ended up with. If you bought each Destiny expansion at full price you'd end up paying a bit more for Destiny (roughly $140 vs $100 for Halo 3)

- That said, that extra $40 also brought along a pair of new Raids, several new single player missions, several new pieces of exotic armor and several new exotic weapons, each with their own unique models and special powers, a handful of new Strikes, a new location packed with fun to discover secrets, two fun racing maps along with the Sparrow racing mode, a trio of holiday themed events, some downright brilliant writing and storylines in the Grimoire, and whatever else I'm forgetting.

Yes, Destiny has its problems, but straight up content and post launch support is not one of them. With Halo 2, 3, and Reach, I played through the single player in one to two days then had to wait three years for more content. With Destiny, I've gotten additional chunks of content multiple times now. For me, at least, Destiny has been this fun, ongoing, evolving journey that I know isn't over yet since there's the large Fall release still to come.

I guess I just find it a bit hard to complain about the last two years of periodic content drops, lore expansions, and new explorations with friends compared to Halo's one and done approach even though it did cost me a little more. That we know another game is not too far over the horizon as well leaves me with... Thankfulness for the past and Hope for the Future. :)

locked

1660 views

- No text -

locked

1587 views

I think you're absolutely right when it comes to the amount of content Destiny has compared to bungie's previous games. I've always found it a bit silly when I hear people say "Destiny doesn't have enough content", or anything along those lines.

However, I do think Destiny has a content problem. It's not the amount of content, as much as it is the quality and diversity of the content. Vanilla Destiny has a decently long campaign. Way more missions than any Halo game, plus all the patrol stuff. But most of those missions were highly repetitive. Too many of them felt the same... In our minds, things that are too similar start to blend together or be forgotten. So a game with 20 missions ends up feeling like it only has 4 or 5. The year 1 DLC only put a brighter spotlight on this problem. Each expansion added 3 or 4 new story missions, but they were so similar to the other missions that they were almost instantly forgotten. Bungie added all this content to their game, yet a week after playing it I felt like they'd hardly added anything.

TTK did show lots of improvements in this regard. I found the story missions more memorable and distinct from each other. To me, TTK feels like a larger campaign than vanilla, even though it is actually far shorter. Hopefully we'll see things continue to improve :)

locked

1626 views

I think you're absolutely right when it comes to the amount of content Destiny has compared to bungie's previous games. I've always found it a bit silly when I hear people say "Destiny doesn't have enough content", or anything along those lines.

It doesn't have enough content for an MMO. This is the difference. Bungie has never made a game in that genre before. Comparisons to their past FPS games aren't really relevant.

locked

1614 views

This is pretty much what I was going to say. Destiny's a game that expects players to come back much more frequently than something like Halo.

locked

1591 views

There are a few legitimately good mission in Destiny.

The very first one, of course.
"We've Awoken the Hive!"
The Sword of Crota
the first Vex mission (complete with no time to explain!)
the assault on the House of Winter's Kell
The long Cabal mission where you travel most of Mars to activate the Spire.

All of those have decent length or challenges... Far too many of the rest of Vanilla Destiny's missions were very quick things that immediately ended with a countdown and not near enough story progression. Compare that to...

Pillar of Autumn
Halo
Truth and Reconciliation
Silent Cartrographer
Assault on the Control Room
343 Guilty Spark
The Library
Two Betrayals
Keyes
The MAW

...and Vanilla suddenly doesn't look all that great at all. :(

If I could trade two or three Destiny missions in for Strikes I'd do it in a heartbeat. I wouldn't object to the occasional Cayde's Stash or similarly fun and interesting mini-missions, but I think Destiny would benefit greatly by having longer, Halo-like levels instead of all the bite sized content we got in year 1.

locked

1589 views

Forge Mode

locked

1623 views

I get that a lot of people loved Forge maps, but I was not one of them. To me, their inclusion in Matchmaking was annoying and frustrating. It was a constant rotation of ugly maps (compared to fully rendered Bungie maps, at the very least) that I did not know but seemingly all my enemies did. Where's the Battle Rifles?? Who knows, because I'm already being killed by one! Where's the flag? Who knows?? Except, you know, my enemies...

That, and I played Halo to play Halo. Strange obstacle courses and party modes and whatnot was never my thing.

Besides, if things continue like they have been, by fall Destiny will have more multiplayer maps than any Halo ever did. To me, that's pretty cool! :)

locked

1596 views

I get that a lot of people loved Forge maps, but I was not one of them. To me, their inclusion in Matchmaking was annoying and frustrating. It was a constant rotation of ugly maps (compared to fully rendered Bungie maps, at the very least) that I did not know but seemingly all my enemies did. Where's the Battle Rifles?? Who knows, because I'm already being killed by one! Where's the flag? Who knows?? Except, you know, my enemies...

1) That's true even for developer maps the first few times you play...
2) None of that would be a problem in Destiny, give or take a few Carney Holes.

That, and I played Halo to play Halo. Strange obstacle courses and party modes and whatnot was never my thing.

You're strange and party!

Besides, if things continue like they have been, by fall Destiny will have more multiplayer maps than any Halo ever did. To me, that's pretty cool! :)

locked

1594 views

I get that a lot of people loved Forge maps, but I was not one of them. To me, their inclusion in Matchmaking was annoying and frustrating. It was a constant rotation of ugly maps (compared to fully rendered Bungie maps, at the very least) that I did not know but seemingly all my enemies did. Where's the Battle Rifles?? Who knows, because I'm already being killed by one! Where's the flag? Who knows?? Except, you know, my enemies...

1) That's true even for developer maps the first few times you play...

Yes, but not a constant rotation of new frustration... Too many fully rendered maps would be bad too, I suppose, but at least they'd be pretty. :p

locked

1599 views

their inclusion in Matchmaking

I found your problem.

[image]

locked

1593 views

House of wolves arrived a year ago today.

Just take a look at the amount and quality of content dropped after each year's respective large releases. What did we get post launch in year one? What did we get post TTK in year two? Compare.

How are those microtransactions working out again? Oh, they didn't do shit? I'm so surprised.

I'll bet the studio teams are less burnt out! That pays off in quality of future content.

locked

1695 views

I'll bet the studio teams are less burnt out! That pays off in quality of future content.

I hope that is true, but I might not be around to see it :-/

I think I'd prefer one giant mega package once per year actually.

locked

1693 views

I'll bet the studio teams are less burnt out! That pays off in quality of future content.

I hope that is true, but I might not be around to see it :-/

I think I'd prefer one giant mega package once per year actually.

Is that not what we're all waiting for in year 3? Bungie said there would be no big DLCs in year two, only bits of content trickled. Everything big comes after year two is over.

locked

1537 views

House of wolves arrived a year ago today.

Just take a look at the amount and quality of content dropped after each year's respective large releases. What did we get post launch in year one? What did we get post TTK in year two? Compare.

How are those microtransactions working out again? Oh, they didn't do shit? I'm so surprised.

I'll bet the studio teams are less burnt out! That pays off in quality of future content.

This would make me so happy. I'm really hoping for a gaming industry where people are able to live normal lives and still make competitive products they can be proud of.

locked

1646 views

I'll bet the studio teams are less burnt out! That pays off in quality of future content.

This would make me so happy. I'm really hoping for a gaming industry where people are able to live normal lives and still make competitive products they can be proud of.

^^^THIS^^^

I think about this a lot. Ubisoft seems to be on to something in that regard, thanks to their "Hollywood-ish" model. Multiple teams and departments within each studio, with multiple studios working on each game so that everyone is busy all the time. "The concept artist's in Montreal just finished work on their latest game? No problem, get them started on concepts for Ubi Toronto's next game."

It is leading to some interesting problems with the games themselves, in that they are all pulling from each other in a way that makes them all feel very "samey". "We need a 3rd-person cover system for Watch Dogs, so we'll just rip the code straight out of the last Splinter Cell game and use that... speaking of which, we need better shooting in Splinter Cell, so let's pull the weapon mechanics from Ghost Recon..." etc. Still, if it means people keep their jobs without working 80-100 hours per, I'm all for it.

locked

1630 views

Climb the tall thing. Collect the feathers. Follow the man from a distance. Clear the outpost. Etc.

locked

1612 views

- No text -

locked

1553 views

- No text -

locked

1565 views

Chaos Theory was the last Splinter Cell game that I loved. I played Doubled Agent on the original Xbox and found it to be decent, but I never played the 360 version, which was apparently pretty significantly different.

I thought Conviction was actually a really good and fun game, just not a great Splinter Cell game. I skipped Blacklist entirely. Was that a mistake?

I want a proper Chaos Theory style SC so bad. I played the crap out of that game when it finally made it's way onto the 360 backwards compatible list. I'd play through it again tomorrow if they starting making original Xbox games work on the One.

locked

1570 views

Haven't played its co-op yet, though, so I can't really compare it to my favorite Chaos Theory moments. :p

locked

1548 views

I thought Conviction was actually a really good and fun game, just not a great Splinter Cell game. I skipped Blacklist entirely. Was that a mistake?

In a word, Yes.

locked

1537 views

... and like most SC fans, I LOVED Chaos Theory, so that's saying a lot.
It's also one of the most impressive games I've ever played from a "total package" point of view.

The campaign didn't have quite as many iconic moments as Chaos Theory, but it fixed one of the biggest problems I've always had with the SC gameplay: it's the first time I felt like I could truly improvise, even when things went wrong. They hit a great sweet-spot with the shooting mechanics: they feel tight and responsive (a first for the series), but you don't feel so overpowered that you can easily tank your way through missions. The impact this has on the game is huge. If you're going for a stealthy approach and something goes wrong, the gunplay is responsive enough that you feel like you can still maintain control of the situation if you play your cards right. In the previous SC games, I'd have to load my previous save pretty much any time the bullets started flying, but in Blacklist you feel equipped to deal with any situation multiple ways.

There's also a really cool points/upgrade system where you earn points in different style categories based on how you complete each mission. Sneaking past enemies and using silent, non-lethal takedowns earns you "ghost" points, silent lethal takedowns earn "Panther" points, and full-aggro kills earn "assault" points. All these points are used as currency to buy upgrades for your suit and gear, and the upgrades are actually meaningful. You can build load outs taylored to specific play styles. So if you're trying to earn a high "Ghost" score, you might buy upgrades that increase your climbing speed and improve your stealth abilities, for example. These style points also tap into a cool leaderboard system where you'll get players competing to see who can earn the highest "Panther" or "assault" score on a given level, or challenge themselves to complete a mission with nothing but ghost points.

Then there's the co-op. There are 3 types of co-op missions, all given out through the NPC crew members on your ship. One member of your squad gives you wave-based survival missions. Another gives you classic "stealth only" missions where a single detection is mission-failure. And the 3rd crew member gives you long, campaign-style co-op missions that string together into their own mini campaign. Of course, the scoring system is all in place for these modes too.

Finally, there's Spies vs Mercs. SvM in Blacklist is right up there with Trials in terms of my all-time favourite multiplayer modes. There's the classic 2v2 mode that gives pre-set load outs to each team. Levels are dark and intricate, and the matches are INTENSE. It might be the scariest game I've played, in the best possible way. There's also a new 4v4 mode with customizable load outs, a wider range of weapons and gadgets, and slightly brighter lighting. It's faster paced and a bit more chaotic, but also a bit more strategic thanks to all the gear and abilities at play. They did a masterful job of designing abilities that all feel powerful and useful, yet all have a counter. It's the ultimate Rock/Paper/Scissors design, and it's a freaking blast.

So yes, you should play this game :D

locked

1570 views

Finally, there's Spies vs Mercs. SvM in Blacklist is right up there with Trials in terms of my all-time favourite multiplayer modes. There's the classic 2v2 mode that gives pre-set load outs to each team. Levels are dark and intricate, and the matches are INTENSE. It might be the scariest game I've played, in the best possible way. There's also a new 4v4 mode with customizable load outs, a wider range of weapons and gadgets, and slightly brighter lighting. It's faster paced and a bit more chaotic, but also a bit more strategic thanks to all the gear and abilities at play. They did a masterful job of designing abilities that all feel powerful and useful, yet all have a counter. It's the ultimate Rock/Paper/Scissors design, and it's a freaking blast.

Man, I loved Spies vs. Mercs in the Pandora Tomorrow days when I was in middle school. We used to do LAN parties, playing primarily the first Halo, but plenty of Spies vs. Mercs and whatever Rainbow Six was out at the time. We played Xbox all night and ran around playing paintball in the wood's at my friends house during the days. Really fun weekends for a group of nerdy kids.

So yes, you should play this game :D

Well, if it ever makes it's way onto the backwards compatible list, I will. I'm honestly not sure why I missed it when it was new.

locked

1557 views

Well, if it ever makes it's way onto the backwards compatible list, I will. I'm honestly not sure why I missed it when it was new.

My reason was the lack of Michael Ironside. Michael Ironside is Sam Fisher. No Michael Ironside, no Sam Fisher.

I was sad and bitter over that change. Still am a bit.

locked

1509 views

Well, if it ever makes it's way onto the backwards compatible list, I will. I'm honestly not sure why I missed it when it was new.

My reason was the lack of Michael Ironside. Michael Ironside is Sam Fisher. No Michael Ironside, no Sam Fisher.

I was sad and bitter over that change. Still am a bit.

I was sad about that too, but I quickly forgot about it after an hour or two with the game. It felt like watching a new Bond movie with a new actor playing 007... I still love Ironside, but the new guy is great in his own way too.

locked

1531 views

Okay, bought it because you said so.

locked

1391 views

I'll bet the studio teams are less burnt out! That pays off in quality of future content.

This would make me so happy. I'm really hoping for a gaming industry where people are able to live normal lives and still make competitive products they can be proud of.

This is a major reason I have not pursued a career as a coder in game development. Some software development companies have earned a reputation of life sucking, burn you out, death marches. Game development also has that same reputation. Put the two together? No thank you.

I would love love love to work in the games industry, but not at the cost of my family and personal well being.

locked

1630 views

This would make me so happy. I'm really hoping for a gaming industry where people are able to live normal lives and still make competitive products they can be proud of.

Would you pay 100 dollars for a game to make that happen? I would, but a lot of people might not.

locked

1606 views

Yes, I would because they would be better games. The best AAA games are a bargain at $60.

locked

1502 views

I think I'm somewhere between you and Korny on this one. On the one hand, I would say that microtransactions have absolutely not helped add anything worthwhile or substantial to the game so far in year 2. But then I think back to year 1 and remember how hugely disappointed I was by TDB and HoW... I'm not sure I could argue that either model has worked out well for the game or the community.

It's strange... I've been playing a lot less Destiny lately, and I'm finding my feelings about the game are shifting a bit. I still love the parts of it that I've always loved. It is a visual masterpiece. I love the way it feels to move, jump, and fly through the environments. The shooting mechanics are second to none.

What has changed for me is how I feel about some of the negative aspects of the game (negative IMO of course). I've gone from "tolerating" or "not worrying" about them to actively resenting them. The investment system in this game would make me furious if I let myself care about it at all. I tried for a year and a half to find that sweet spot between engaging with the loot/level grind and trying to enjoy building my characters the way I wanted to while chasing the gear that appealed to me, without slipping into crazy-obsessive rage-filled territory, but I've now given up. Too much of this game is stacked squarely against the player. The game shows too little respect for the player's time. For every step in the right direction (specific activities that lead directly to specific rewards) the game takes 2 steps backwards:

We can finally do something to personalize our guardian's appearance with this new Chroma system! Cool!!! But... I can only use Chroma by burning a consumable... and that consumable can only be earned through RNG based rewards packages... and I can only apply the color of Chroma that the armor lets me... and if I want a different color, I need to spend glimmer on a reroll that often results in getting the exact same color I just scrapped... and when I finally do get the color I want and activate it, I can't change it without scrapping the consumable I just used and going through the whole process again? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?!

These (^^^) are the kinds of design decisions that I now have absolutely zero patience for. And Destiny is FULL of them. Everywhere I look, I see arbitrary systems that have been added to the game for no reason other than to make things take longer than they should. I see light levels and stats that offer nothing other than a greater chance of being disappointed by the gear that drops at the end of an activity. I see weapon perks that are so useless, they only serve to increase the rarity of drops that are actually fun and usable.

Despite all of this, Destiny continues to be loads of fun for me... just in fewer ways than it ever has before. My weekly Trials runs are something I always look forward to. And jumping into strikes or PoE or a raid with friends is still great. I'm just acutely aware, now more than ever, of how much of this game I need to ignore in order to enjoy the good parts. That's not something I typically do with any game, and I never thought I'd need to ignore so much of a Bungie game to be able to have fun with it. I hope Des2ny turns that around a bit :)

locked

1642 views

What has changed for me is how I feel about some of the negative aspects of the game (negative IMO of course). I've gone from "tolerating" or "not worrying" about them to actively resenting them.

The less you play, the more you can step outside and see this. Since stopping, I've gone from remembering the good aspects, to flat out being repulsed by everything about Destiny. When I thought about the game before, I could at least justify parts of it. Now I simply can't defend it at all.

locked

1638 views

What has changed for me is how I feel about some of the negative aspects of the game (negative IMO of course). I've gone from "tolerating" or "not worrying" about them to actively resenting them.

The less you play, the more you can step outside and see this. Since stopping, I've gone from remembering the good aspects, to flat out being repulsed by everything about Destiny. When I thought about the game before, I could at least justify parts of it. Now I simply can't defend it at all.

I find that the pvp game still has a ton of depth. The new light system is a vast improvement and it means I'm not hamstrung by not playing the raid very often. What surprises me is that Bungie doesn't seem to be designing to the strengths of the game. The core gunplay and movement of Destiny is a joy, but the vast majority of actual gameplay is staid, repetitive, and grindy as hell.

That being said, now that I have generally close to "top tier" weapons and armor, I feel much more free to spend my time as I wish, and learn how the PvP game is played at the master level.

The bottom line is that microtransactions do not seem to be translating into new or interesting content for players. Bungie is still figuring out how to properly balance their weapons and design some of their fundamental systems. The latest patch is really solid, but there's no guarantee that anything will improve further before D2 launches, and - frankly - all of this should have been figured out well before vanilla destiny launched. SRL was amazing, and bungie has inexplicably removed it from the game never to be seen again, so it doesn't really feel like those microtransactions bought the community *anything* there. Rented, maybe. PoE2 is interesting, but they could go so much farther. The points mechanic is GREAT and I really would love to see it applied to all strikes and raids, if only for bragging rights. RNG loot remains the achilles heel of Destiny. Bungie could quadruple the drop rates and it still wouldn't fix the issue. They need a way to custom craft your dream weapons. If only there were some sort of... weapon... machinist... in the game, that would be great.

At this point I don't know if I'll even buy Destiny 2. I certainly won't be pre-ordering it.

locked

1606 views

What surprises me is that Bungie doesn't seem to be designing to the strengths of the game. The core gunplay and movement of Destiny is a joy, but the vast majority of actual gameplay is staid, repetitive, and grindy as hell.

I've been trying to get the point across that such a failing is inherent to the genre itself. Bungie DID design Destiny to its strengths. That's why it's an MMO that is actually somewhat bearable to play, which is a testament to their abilities. But it's working as a genre in which stale, repetitive grinding is not only prevalent but necessary. Hence my trashing the entire genre of MMOs.

Cruel's description of how Chroma works is absolutely insane. Nobody who actually loves games and is trying to make the best experience possible would ever sign off on something so utterly stupid and exploitative.

I fear they are on the MMO train, and there ain't no getting off till the stop. If they redesigned Destiny as an RPG, then it would not be at an inherent disadvantage, and could possibly rise to greatness without caveats.

locked

1613 views

What surprises me is that Bungie doesn't seem to be designing to the strengths of the game. The core gunplay and movement of Destiny is a joy, but the vast majority of actual gameplay is staid, repetitive, and grindy as hell.

I've been trying to get the point across that such a failing is inherent to the genre itself. Bungie DID design Destiny to its strengths. That's why it's an MMO that is actually somewhat bearable to play, which is a testament to their abilities. But it's working as a genre in which stale, repetitive grinding is not only prevalent but necessary. Hence my trashing the entire genre of MMOs.

Cruel's description of how Chroma works is absolutely insane. Nobody who actually loves games and is trying to make the best experience possible would ever sign off on something so utterly stupid and exploitative.

I fear they are on the MMO train, and there ain't no getting off till the stop. If they redesigned Destiny as an RPG, then it would not be at an inherent disadvantage, and could possibly rise to greatness without caveats.

First, I think Cruel's description of Chroma is off a little. It costs 100 glimmer to reroll your slot and there are only four options: White, yellow, blue, and red. You only lose a chroma rerolling if you already socketed a chroma in the slot before you rerolled. You also get a bunch of chroma for free from each of the free weekly packages. At 3 free packages per week (one that just shows up in your mailbox, one from pvp, and one from PoE), I'm currently sitting on 10 of each color just chillin' in my vault. And you get chroma from scrapping chroma-related gear. It's not hard to come by at all, so much so that it would make more sense to just let you apply it for free without there being some weird resource associated with it.

Second, Destiny is already an RPG. You play the role of a guardian in this game. It also has RPG tropes: character levels, progression, items, inventory, skills, magic, enemies, enemy levels, dungeons, etc... It's all there.

The fact that it's not ringing true isn't because it isn't an RPG, it's because the RPG elements kind of suck. The FPS elements are mostly great. Amazing movement, amazing feeling guns, generally good gunplay. But the level design is pretty bad. It's all stolen from WoW and is linear, boring, and restrictive. There are no missions where you choose which way to go, how to approach the fight, or are given the ability to be creative with your powers or gunplay. Every fight is either "shoot it til it dies" or "do the very specific thing that we designed this fight for you to do." Minor exceptions like Golgoroth are really just optimization issues rather than emergent gameplay.

There also isn't anything close to a compelling narrative, especially where the player character comes in. Not only do the other characters never tell you what the hell is going on, but there's no hook to make you feel like your actions are important in any way. Wow, I did all that for one mote of light? Gee, thanks Mr. Speaker. Sure was worth it. Until TTK, none of your actions had an impact on the game world, either. TTK at least you get to drop the patrol beacons and set up patrol mode on the Dreadnaught - that was super cool to do! But then you finish the few story missions and you're back in pointless endgame.

Now, I happen to find the pvp really compelling (except when there's lag), but the endless strikes and raids really bug me. Why aren't there more long term goals? Why aren't there weekly community goals? Why are the rewards so fucking RNG-awful? Well, we know why. It's because they built the game intentionally to be addictive with all sorts of meters to fill and levels to level at the direction of someone who designs slot machines for a living. They intentionally made the game to abuse dopamine responses in their players, not so the players would *enjoy* the game, but so they would keep playing even when they did not enjoy it.

It's pretty fucked up.

And yet TTK was good. Going back to play my alts through the new subclass missions a few weeks ago was great. It was like, "oh, wow, this is what this game can be." But for some inscrutable reason, TTK didn't add that polish and glow to the endgame experience. I cannot fathom why not. For most of us, our primary memories of Destiny are the lackluster and grindy endgame, rather than the warm glow of TTK's cutscenes, humor, decent plot, and engaging characters.

We can only hope that they take their design philosophies from TTK and expand them to every activity of Des2ny. Especially the endgame.

locked

1503 views

What has changed for me is how I feel about some of the negative aspects of the game (negative IMO of course). I've gone from "tolerating" or "not worrying" about them to actively resenting them.

The less you play, the more you can step outside and see this. Since stopping, I've gone from remembering the good aspects, to flat out being repulsed by everything about Destiny. When I thought about the game before, I could at least justify parts of it. Now I simply can't defend it at all.

If I had to make a guess, I feel like this says more about your memory than the game.

locked

1569 views

We can finally do something to personalize our guardian's appearance with this new Chroma system! Cool!!! But... I can only use Chroma by burning a consumable... and that consumable can only be earned through RNG based rewards packages... and I can only apply the color of Chroma that the armor lets me... and if I want a different color, I need to spend glimmer on a reroll that often results in getting the exact same color I just scrapped... and when I finally do get the color I want and activate it, I can't change it without scrapping the consumable I just used and going through the whole process again? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?!

These (^^^) are the kinds of design decisions that I now have absolutely zero patience for. And Destiny is FULL of them. Everywhere I look, I see arbitrary systems that have been added to the game for no reason other than to make things take longer than they should. I see light levels and stats that offer nothing other than a greater chance of being disappointed by the gear that drops at the end of an activity. I see weapon perks that are so useless, they only serve to increase the rarity of drops that are actually fun and usable.

I'm right there with you. It's almost disgraceful, honestly. Say what you will, but adding RNG and microtransaction elements to how I color my armor is just stupid and about as anti-player as you can get. And to make it burn up a consumable to change the color of something? Seriously? It damn near makes me angry. It's like the game is begging me not to play it, and it's getting exactly what it wants until the fall expansion, probably.

I enjoyed playing with you finally a few weeks ago. I anticipated finally playing a lot more with the PS4 folks. But the thought of playing grinding through more Destiny just turns me off so much right now.

There's too many other games right now anyway, so it's fine, but if Destiny 2 follows the same formula as Destiny, I'm not sure how invested I'll be. Time will tell.

locked

1588 views

Great point as usual Cody.

Microtransactions are a cash grab & have been a disappointment.

locked

1622 views

Or attention.

locked

1589 views

- No text -

locked

1539 views

House of wolves arrived a year ago today.

Just take a look at the amount and quality of content dropped after each year's respective large releases. What did we get post launch in year one? What did we get post TTK in year two? Compare.

I think that's grouping them wrong. The vanilla launch is separate.

Then the question is, what expansion did we get in Year 1? DB and HoW, a small and medium sized expansion.

What did we get in Year 2? TTK, something similar in size, if not larger, to DB and HoW combined.

End of Year 2 / beginning of Year 3 is apparently bringing another expansion, yet to be fully described.

They are not necessarily sticking to the original contract, but that was from years ago and things change. I cannot say at this point, nor do I think any reasonable person can, that Destiny does not have "enough content". They can say that they would consume content faster if it came faster, but that's a different thing.

How are those microtransactions working out again? Oh, they didn't do shit? I'm so surprised.

What were they supposed to do? Ruin the game? Is it ruined?

I agree that they set up the wrong kind of incentives, and I voluntarily avoid them. But I've yet to see evidence that they're ruining the game, mostly because we haven't yet seen content developed after they were introduced.

locked

1608 views

. . . mostly because we haven't yet seen content developed after they were introduced.

I think you're making his point for him there. We've seen Festival of the Lost, SRL, and Crimson Doubles, and that's it. Oh, and a thirty second mission and half-assed quarter strike.

locked

1586 views

- No text -

locked

1537 views

https://www.bungie.net/en/Stats/2/4611686018458818996/2305843009370707839?mode=all

I've played 10 hours on PS4 since the end of March. About 4 hours of that was doing Refer-A-Friend stuff with CruelLEGACEY. The rest was before that, getting a character through some of the vanilla story and most of the TTK main story to get to level 40. I haven't played more than thirty minutes on Xbox One since SRL.

locked

1543 views

You shouldn't judge it. The strike is perfectly fine.

locked

1508 views

. . . mostly because we haven't yet seen content developed after they were introduced.

I think you're making his point for him there. We've seen Festival of the Lost, SRL, and Crimson Doubles, and that's it. Oh, and a thirty second mission and half-assed quarter strike.

If so, then he's basing his point on the nonsense interpretation the gaming press made, which was that Eververse purchases were supposed to fund "free DLC" which was a nonsense idea anyway.

That Malok stuff was weak, though, but if that's what free is, then that's what it is. I don't necessarily think it got paid for by microtransactions, I don't think it made the game worse, it just didn't improve it as much as a bigger expansion would have, but neither do I think that we didn't get an expansion we would have gotten because Eververse exists. I think a big release, two small DLCs (DB and HoW) plus two big ones (TTK and whatever the next one is) before the next major release is probably reasonable, and beats the heck out of waiting three years for ten levels.

So Malok was lackluster. So what. I got his head as a helmet.

locked

1560 views

So Malok was lackluster. So what. I got his head as a helmet.

Plus the rest of the update was much needed improvements, plus a much needed revamp of PoE that I'm still enjoying.

locked

1532 views

So Malok was lackluster. So what. I got his head as a helmet.

Plus the rest of the update was much needed improvements, plus a much needed revamp of PoE that I'm still enjoying.

I have mixed feelings about a lot of what was added with this update. On the one hand, yes they improvements to infusion and rep gain are very welcome. On the other hand, those issues really should have been fixed a week or two after the launch of TTK. I know it sounds a bit childish to say "I want free stuff sooner!", but Bungie's slow response time with these sort of fixes is an ongoing issue, IMO. The loot cave was gone in a week, but it took 6 months to nerf Thorn. Pushing the Templar off the ledge was fixed within a month, but it took a year and a half to fix IB drop rates.

I don't want to make it sound like a bigger deal that it is. It's just that Bungie's tendency to hold back needed changes in order to pad-out minor content updates feels disingenuous to me. If something about the live game needs fixing, I think it should be fixed asap rather than waiting for the next content drop just to make it seem like a bigger update than it really is.

locked

1622 views

Part of your point though is confirmation bias. Bungie fixes a rather large amount of issues within a week or two of them being discovered, we just forget about them because they are gone so fast (and because, as all people do, when making a point we more easily remember the ones that support our claim).

A few examples:
* Sterling Treasure Box fix (which basically fixed a ONE time event)
* Crimson Days Ghosts (this wasn't even a bug, it was just to make us happy)
* Exotic Leg engrams not decrypting, SRL Record Book issue (same patch I believe)
* Unlimited Shadowshot
* Mythoclast unnerf

These are just off the top of my head. If you go browse the patch notes section on Bungie.net you'll find a lot more. Yes some issues take a long time to fix, but the fact that they DO fix so many so fast means those issues must be more difficult than we think to fix, or with balance issues they just can't agree on a balance change.

locked

1505 views

Part of your point though is confirmation bias. Bungie fixes a rather large amount of issues within a week or two of them being discovered, we just forget about them because they are gone so fast (and because, as all people do, when making a point we more easily remember the ones that support our claim).

A few examples:
* Sterling Treasure Box fix (which basically fixed a ONE time event)
* Crimson Days Ghosts (this wasn't even a bug, it was just to make us happy)
* Exotic Leg engrams not decrypting, SRL Record Book issue (same patch I believe)
* Unlimited Shadowshot
* Mythoclast unnerf

These are just off the top of my head. If you go browse the patch notes section on Bungie.net you'll find a lot more. Yes some issues take a long time to fix, but the fact that they DO fix so many so fast means those issues must be more difficult than we think to fix.

Totally valid point. I have my own theories about why certain changes take so much longer than others, but that's all they are: theories. This is totally just my own gut feeling, but I find that many of the tweaks that take a long time to deliver are design-changes rather than bugs or broken systems (IB drops being one of the exceptions). I've been reading a bit lately about the balance of instinct-driven design vs data-driven design, and the read I get from Bungie is that a lot of the changes we see are very data driven. They'll hear the community scream "ZOMG NERF EXOTIC HAND CANNONS" and so they'll spend months gathering data on how those weapons perform in the crucible before they decide to make a change or not. Which can sometimes be tough for some players to understand, because some of us feel like "why all the research? we could tell it was overpowered after using the thing for 10 minutes!" Some studios/designers base these kinds of decisions more on instinct. They focus more on the perceived experience of the individual player "Does it feel overpowered? Than it is, regardless of what the data says". For better or for worse, I get the sense that Bungie prefers taking their time to analyze all the data before making such changes. And that takes time.

locked

1511 views

I know it sounds a bit childish to say "I want free stuff sooner!"

I don't think it's that unreasonable to feel that way in this particular case. Destiny is a game that takes, takes, takes from you. It demands much from you and it does't really give back.

Like, if you had a partner who didn't work but asked you to always buy them shit, didn't drive so you always had to go out of your way to take them places, and expected you to put yourself second and help them out all the time, are you really wrong if you ask them to do the dishes tonight?

locked

1538 views

I know it sounds a bit childish to say "I want free stuff sooner!"

I don't think it's that unreasonable to feel that way in this particular case. Destiny is a game that takes, takes, takes from you. It demands much from you and it does't really give back.

Like, if you had a partner who didn't work but asked you to always buy them shit, didn't drive so you always had to go out of your way to take them places, and expected you to put yourself second and help them out all the time, are you really wrong if you ask them to do the dishes tonight?

I'm really trying to understand this post, but I can't parse it.

I honestly don't understand what you mean when you say that Destiny takes, takes, takes from me - I can't name a single thing it's taken (I don't count time, because I give that freely). And it gives me enjoyment, nearly every time I play it.

It's not enough to say "we see this from different perspectives." I don't think we're even looking at the same thing. :(

locked

1523 views

I know it sounds a bit childish to say "I want free stuff sooner!"

I don't think it's that unreasonable to feel that way in this particular case. Destiny is a game that takes, takes, takes from you. It demands much from you and it does't really give back.

Like, if you had a partner who didn't work but asked you to always buy them shit, didn't drive so you always had to go out of your way to take them places, and expected you to put yourself second and help them out all the time, are you really wrong if you ask them to do the dishes tonight?

I'm really trying to understand this post, but I can't parse it.

I honestly don't understand what you mean when you say that Destiny takes, takes, takes from me - I can't name a single thing it's taken (I don't count time, because I give that freely). And it gives me enjoyment, nearly every time I play it.

It's not enough to say "we see this from different perspectives." I don't think we're even looking at the same thing. :(

Personally, I wouldn't voice my feelings quite as drastically as Cody did, but I do have somewhat similar feelings. "Taking" is the wrong word, I think (for me at least). I've always found Destiny to be a game that contains these incredibly fun little nuggets, but I need to get through a bunch of other stuff that I don't enjoy just to reach those nuggets. When Vanilla launched, I adored VoG and the nightfalls. But I had to sink loads of time into content that I didn't really enjoy to reach those points. I have a blast using certain weapons, but the process of acquiring those weapons was often long and frustrating. Bungie has certainly made improvements in some areas. Upgrading gear and aquiring materials isn't the grindy slog that it used to be. But then they go and add the Chroma system as it is. It's strange to me that this far after launch they are still adding features or systems that are so flagrantly unfriendly to the player. I KNOW they are going to adjust it down the road... It's so obviously frustrating the moment you do it the very first time. But Bungie's approach seems to be "make everything take a really long time and we'll change it once the community complains enough." (I know that's not their literal train of thought, I'm just pointing out the pattern I see with how they handle their "investment" systems),

locked

1522 views

I know it sounds a bit childish to say "I want free stuff sooner!"

I don't think it's that unreasonable to feel that way in this particular case. Destiny is a game that takes, takes, takes from you. It demands much from you and it does't really give back.

Like, if you had a partner who didn't work but asked you to always buy them shit, didn't drive so you always had to go out of your way to take them places, and expected you to put yourself second and help them out all the time, are you really wrong if you ask them to do the dishes tonight?

I'm really trying to understand this post, but I can't parse it.

I honestly don't understand what you mean when you say that Destiny takes, takes, takes from me - I can't name a single thing it's taken (I don't count time, because I give that freely). And it gives me enjoyment, nearly every time I play it.

It's not enough to say "we see this from different perspectives." I don't think we're even looking at the same thing. :(

Personally, I wouldn't voice my feelings quite as drastically as Cody did, but I do have somewhat similar feelings. "Taking" is the wrong word, I think (for me at least). I've always found Destiny to be a game that contains these incredibly fun little nuggets, but I need to get through a bunch of other stuff that I don't enjoy just to reach those nuggets. When Vanilla launched, I adored VoG and the nightfalls. But I had to sink loads of time into content that I didn't really enjoy to reach those points. I have a blast using certain weapons, but the process of acquiring those weapons was often long and frustrating. Bungie has certainly made improvements in some areas. Upgrading gear and aquiring materials isn't the grindy slog that it used to be. But then they go and add the Chroma system as it is. It's strange to me that this far after launch they are still adding features or systems that are so flagrantly unfriendly to the player. I KNOW they are going to adjust it down the road... It's so obviously frustrating the moment you do it the very first time. But Bungie's approach seems to be "make everything take a really long time and we'll change it once the community complains enough." (I know that's not their literal train of thought, I'm just pointing out the pattern I see with how they handle their "investment" systems),

We just play this game so, so very differently that communication about its problems is difficult. :(

I got a Chaperone after SRL - because when I first received the Jolly Holliday quest, I tried it out, decided I wasn't interested in playing Crucible a way I didn't enjoy, and forgot about it. SRL came along, and suddenly there was a trivial way to finish this quest, so I did, and got the gun. And yeah, it's fun to play with (though I'm so crappy with shotguns in general that I didn't do much more than try it out before putting it into my vault). But not having it for a year didn't bug me in the slightest.

I didn't get a Thorn for well over a year; it was too much of a pain in the ass to try and figure out how to make Fusion Rifles work well enough to earn the points needed (a Void FR was the only void weapon I had at the start), so I just ignored it. Eventually, I had a Word of Crota, a Void LDR, and a Truth - and suddenly the requirements were pretty simple, so I completed them. It's a nice gun - but I'm not very good with it (I was a Last Word fanatic at the time I got it, and it just fired too slowly for my taste), so it's mostly in my vault. I never once felt like I was missing something.

I sort of hate flashy armor. Most of my characters are clad in black. So Chroma was irrelevant to me. I tried it out (and I've colored a couple of weapons just to make the stupid yellow outline on their boxes in my inventory)... but I really couldn't care less about it. Which means I have a vault full of all colors of Chroma. If, at some point, I change my mind and decide I like the concept of glowy armor... I can have as much as I want, in whatever color I want. Zero grinding, because it falls frequently enough that if you don't actually use it you build up a mountain.

I have dozens of weapons I haven't even had a chance to try out yet, because they're dropping faster than I can handle. I have only once felt as though I've had to do stuff I didn't want to do in order to earn a weapon I didn't have. (I've certainly done things I haven't really enjoyed - but it wasn't until the Exotic Sword quest that I realized I was grinding in a way I'd never done before, and I didn't like it.) I finished that quest - but I ignored the other two. I only have the Arc exotic sword - and I'm totally okay with the idea that I'll probably never have the other two.

Again: you and I play completely differently. I do not, and (almost) never have, felt that Bungie has pushed me to do things I don't want to do in order to get to things I DO want to do. I have always, since Day 1 (since BEFORE Day 1, if you wanna count the Beta, or the Alpha), found so many activities that I CAN do that the ones I CAN'T are fine to push down the road.

I get that this is not true for you. (Or for Cody. Or for probably millions of other players.) But it's true for me, and even some degree of empathy leaves me deficient in fully understanding your plight (at least from an internalized standpoint).

Sorry. I wish I were better at this. :(

locked

1509 views

I know it sounds a bit childish to say "I want free stuff sooner!"

I don't think it's that unreasonable to feel that way in this particular case. Destiny is a game that takes, takes, takes from you. It demands much from you and it does't really give back.

Like, if you had a partner who didn't work but asked you to always buy them shit, didn't drive so you always had to go out of your way to take them places, and expected you to put yourself second and help them out all the time, are you really wrong if you ask them to do the dishes tonight?

I'm really trying to understand this post, but I can't parse it.

I honestly don't understand what you mean when you say that Destiny takes, takes, takes from me - I can't name a single thing it's taken (I don't count time, because I give that freely). And it gives me enjoyment, nearly every time I play it.

It's not enough to say "we see this from different perspectives." I don't think we're even looking at the same thing. :(

Personally, I wouldn't voice my feelings quite as drastically as Cody did, but I do have somewhat similar feelings. "Taking" is the wrong word, I think (for me at least). I've always found Destiny to be a game that contains these incredibly fun little nuggets, but I need to get through a bunch of other stuff that I don't enjoy just to reach those nuggets. When Vanilla launched, I adored VoG and the nightfalls. But I had to sink loads of time into content that I didn't really enjoy to reach those points. I have a blast using certain weapons, but the process of acquiring those weapons was often long and frustrating. Bungie has certainly made improvements in some areas. Upgrading gear and aquiring materials isn't the grindy slog that it used to be. But then they go and add the Chroma system as it is. It's strange to me that this far after launch they are still adding features or systems that are so flagrantly unfriendly to the player. I KNOW they are going to adjust it down the road... It's so obviously frustrating the moment you do it the very first time. But Bungie's approach seems to be "make everything take a really long time and we'll change it once the community complains enough." (I know that's not their literal train of thought, I'm just pointing out the pattern I see with how they handle their "investment" systems),

We just play this game so, so very differently that communication about its problems is difficult. :(

I got a Chaperone after SRL - because when I first received the Jolly Holliday quest, I tried it out, decided I wasn't interested in playing Crucible a way I didn't enjoy, and forgot about it. SRL came along, and suddenly there was a trivial way to finish this quest, so I did, and got the gun. And yeah, it's fun to play with (though I'm so crappy with shotguns in general that I didn't do much more than try it out before putting it into my vault). But not having it for a year didn't bug me in the slightest.

I didn't get a Thorn for well over a year; it was too much of a pain in the ass to try and figure out how to make Fusion Rifles work well enough to earn the points needed (a Void FR was the only void weapon I had at the start), so I just ignored it. Eventually, I had a Word of Crota, a Void LDR, and a Truth - and suddenly the requirements were pretty simple, so I completed them. It's a nice gun - but I'm not very good with it (I was a Last Word fanatic at the time I got it, and it just fired too slowly for my taste), so it's mostly in my vault. I never once felt like I was missing something.

I sort of hate flashy armor. Most of my characters are clad in black. So Chroma was irrelevant to me. I tried it out (and I've colored a couple of weapons just to make the stupid yellow outline on their boxes in my inventory)... but I really couldn't care less about it. Which means I have a vault full of all colors of Chroma. If, at some point, I change my mind and decide I like the concept of glowy armor... I can have as much as I want, in whatever color I want. Zero grinding, because it falls frequently enough that if you don't actually use it you build up a mountain.

I have dozens of weapons I haven't even had a chance to try out yet, because they're dropping faster than I can handle. I have only once felt as though I've had to do stuff I didn't want to do in order to earn a weapon I didn't have. (I've certainly done things I haven't really enjoyed - but it wasn't until the Exotic Sword quest that I realized I was grinding in a way I'd never done before, and I didn't like it.) I finished that quest - but I ignored the other two. I only have the Arc exotic sword - and I'm totally okay with the idea that I'll probably never have the other two.

Again: you and I play completely differently. I do not, and (almost) never have, felt that Bungie has pushed me to do things I don't want to do in order to get to things I DO want to do. I have always, since Day 1 (since BEFORE Day 1, if you wanna count the Beta, or the Alpha), found so many activities that I CAN do that the ones I CAN'T are fine to push down the road.

I get that this is not true for you. (Or for Cody. Or for probably millions of other players.) But it's true for me, and even some degree of empathy leaves me deficient in fully understanding your plight (at least from an internalized standpoint).

Sorry. I wish I were better at this. :(

Don't worry, remember I'm one of the hardcore the Destiny players, and I still don't have an exotic sword, Touch of Malice (on Xbox), or a Jade Rabbit/Zen Meteor, and I'm perfectly okay with all of that. Heck, I got The Chaperone in three consecutive Crucible matches on PS4, but haven't bothered to start the quest on Xbox. All because I simply don't feel like doing the requirements for any, and I've never had an issue with the game making me feel like I was missing anything (I've only recently started wanting an exotic sword because of how neat the Raze-Lighter is, but not enough to try to get one, even though it's easy to cheese).

I've never felt like the game required me to do anything that I didn't want to, and I have well over 1500 hours playing it. Heck, I've flat-out stopped playing the game for over a month on two occasions (shortly after major content drops), and didn't feel like I was falling behind anyone...

So yeah, I too have never felt like Destiny was "taking" anything from me.

locked

1503 views

Maybe the best way to understand is to go play games that DONT take. You'll see the difference like night and day. If all you play is Destiny you might not see it, but plenty of games give you a great time without pushing any agenda or manipulative design practices. You don't have to wait down the road for any activities. You can just have fun immediately.

locked

1471 views

Maybe the best way to understand is to go play games that DONT take. You'll see the difference like night and day. If all you play is Destiny you might not see it, but plenty of games give you a great time without pushing any agenda or manipulative design practices. You don't have to wait down the road for any activities. You can just have fun immediately.

You're suggesting I didn't have fun immediately with Destiny? That would be an incorrect suggestion.

I've played plenty of games in my life. I don't think I've ever played a game where you start out with all the skills you need to play the end game. I don't think I'd actually enjoy playing a game like that. (Or all the gear, if you want to leave skill out of it. I wouldn't enjoy that either.)

Clearly, I don't understand what you're suggesting. Maybe specific examples? (A game that allows me to have fun immediately, and then an explanation of what Destiny does that violates that particular example?) That way, I can see if you even understand how far apart we are in how we see this game. (I don't think you do.)

locked

1476 views

Maybe the best way to understand is to go play games that DONT take. You'll see the difference like night and day. If all you play is Destiny you might not see it, but plenty of games give you a great time without pushing any agenda or manipulative design practices. You don't have to wait down the road for any activities. You can just have fun immediately.

You're suggesting I didn't have fun immediately with Destiny? That would be an incorrect suggestion.

You said yourself some activities you had to put off till later down the line.

locked

1511 views

Maybe the best way to understand is to go play games that DONT take. You'll see the difference like night and day. If all you play is Destiny you might not see it, but plenty of games give you a great time without pushing any agenda or manipulative design practices. You don't have to wait down the road for any activities. You can just have fun immediately.

You're suggesting I didn't have fun immediately with Destiny? That would be an incorrect suggestion.

You said yourself some activities you had to put off till later down the line.

Yep. How does that mean I didn't have fun immediately?

I loved my childhood. I wasn't allowed to drive until I was 16, but that didn't stop me from having fun as an 8 year old. It has undeniably made parts of my life better now that I AM allowed to drive.

Are you suggesting that if 100% of a game isn't playable in minute 1, it's broken? Because that's the stupidest thing I've ever thought you said. :) (Maybe you didn't say it, which is why I phrased it that way.)

Even IF I could have done those things I pushed down the road right from the start, I couldn't have - BECAUSE THERE ARE A LIMITED NUMBER OF HOURS IN THE DAY. So I can do A, B, and C, but not D - but that's okay, because really I only have time for A. So I have to push B and C down the road ANYWAY, just because there isn't time.

If I found myself with a gap between when I found things that I COULD do fun, and when I was ABLE to do things I COULDN'T do, you'd have a point. But in the 2 years since I first played Destiny, that has never, ever, ever happened.

locked

1479 views

Yep. How does that mean I didn't have fun immediately?

I loved my childhood. I wasn't allowed to drive until I was 16, but that didn't stop me from having fun as an 8 year old. It has undeniably made parts of my life better now that I AM allowed to drive.

You can't reach the pedals or see over the wheel when you are 8. Those are fundamental limitations, not limitations that are self imposed.

Are you suggesting that if 100% of a game isn't playable in minute 1, it's broken? Because that's the stupidest thing I've ever thought you said. :) (Maybe you didn't say it, which is why I phrased it that way.)

In some sense. I think having the option to instantly unlock say, all tracks in Guitar Hero, would be a great addition to the game. But I would't take it to the extreme. There's a reason even story based games let you do chapter selects after you finish them.

Even IF I could have done those things I pushed down the road right from the start, I couldn't have - BECAUSE THERE ARE A LIMITED NUMBER OF HOURS IN THE DAY. So I can do A, B, and C, but not D - but that's okay, because really I only have time for A. So I have to push B and C down the road ANYWAY, just because there isn't time.

That's not the complaint. That's a fundamental limitation, not one imposed by the software.

If I found myself with a gap between when I found things that I COULD do fun, and when I was ABLE to do things I COULDN'T do, you'd have a point. But in the 2 years since I first played Destiny, that has never, ever, ever happened.

You also never experienced VoG or Crota blind. Great experiences (VoG more so), but to do that you most certainly would have had to do things you didn't find fun. I know you've come around to blind raiding.

locked

1487 views

That's not the complaint. That's a fundamental limitation, not one imposed by the software.

If the end result is indistinguishable to me, why should I care?

Why should YOU care?

You also never experienced VoG or Crota blind. Great experiences (VoG more so), but to do that you most certainly would have had to do things you didn't find fun. I know you've come around to blind raiding.

I enjoyed blind-raiding on KF, yes. I don't, even after experiencing that, feel regret that I never blind-raided the two that came before. This, I understand, is a fundamental difference between the way you see the world and the way I see the world. And I am ABSOLUTELY GOOD with the fact that I can look back on things I did in my life and understand that I left things on the table, for whatever reason... and not be sad about it. :)

locked

1484 views

I think part of the problem with misunderstanding is actually the other way as well. Cody has been so interested in the Raids that for every expansion that's included one he's hurried to max his level out to make sure he can play the raid on day one. Rushing through content A-Y to get to specific content Z is always going to make you resent the A-Y. I believe you and I both enjoyed all the content along the way because while we were looking forward to the Raid, we also were looking forward to the missions and the strikes and Crucible maps.

locked

1531 views

- No text -

locked

1489 views

I think part of the problem with misunderstanding is actually the other way as well. Cody has been so interested in the Raids that for every expansion that's included one he's hurried to max his level out to make sure he can play the raid on day one. Rushing through content A-Y to get to specific content Z is always going to make you resent the A-Y. I believe you and I both enjoyed all the content along the way because while we were looking forward to the Raid, we also were looking forward to the missions and the strikes and Crucible maps.

I know that I personally don't enjoy Destiny's story content that much, but back when TTK first launched, a lot of our regular PS4 group seemed to be experiencing a sort of "pressure" to get ready to raid ASAP. I'm sure that feeling lead several people in our group to try and race through the content faster than they may have wanted to. I expect it would effect their enjoyment of it as well.

locked

1511 views

I know that I personally don't enjoy Destiny's story content that much, but back when TTK first launched, a lot of our regular PS4 group seemed to be experiencing a sort of "pressure" to get ready to raid ASAP. I'm sure that feeling lead several people in our group to try and race through the content faster than they may have wanted to. I expect it would effect their enjoyment of it as well.

Either:

1. Bungie deploys the raid later to give people time to get to level (ok).
2. The PS4 crew makes a pact to stay spoiler free and tackle it when ready (better).
3. Bungie doesn't set outrageously high requirements for the raid given the time frame to begin with (best).

locked

1529 views

- No text -

locked

1461 views

- No text -

locked

1480 views

- No text -

locked

1398 views

We just play this game so, so very differently that communication about its problems is difficult. :(

If we all thought the same way about everything, the world would be a very boring place :)

I got a Chaperone after SRL - because when I first received the Jolly Holliday quest, I tried it out, decided I wasn't interested in playing Crucible a way I didn't enjoy, and forgot about it. SRL came along, and suddenly there was a trivial way to finish this quest, so I did, and got the gun. And yeah, it's fun to play with (though I'm so crappy with shotguns in general that I didn't do much more than try it out before putting it into my vault). But not having it for a year didn't bug me in the slightest.

I didn't get a Thorn for well over a year; it was too much of a pain in the ass to try and figure out how to make Fusion Rifles work well enough to earn the points needed (a Void FR was the only void weapon I had at the start), so I just ignored it. Eventually, I had a Word of Crota, a Void LDR, and a Truth - and suddenly the requirements were pretty simple, so I completed them. It's a nice gun - but I'm not very good with it (I was a Last Word fanatic at the time I got it, and it just fired too slowly for my taste), so it's mostly in my vault. I never once felt like I was missing something.

In my head, I have no problem with any of what you described because it was all completely up to you. You didn't feel like completing the requirements, and you could come back to them at any time because Bungie created concrete ways to earn those weapons.

When I talk about feeling like I need to do a bunch of stuff I don't like just to reach the stuff I do like, I'm talking about a few different things at once. Some of it comes down to my enjoyment of the content itself. Using Vanilla Destiny as an example, I absolutely loved a couple of the end game activities, but really didn't enjoy most of the game leading up to those activities. The story missions, the 1-26 grind... it was a total drag for me. So that created a dilemma for me. I really wanted to have multiple characters so I could experience the end game activities using multiple classes. But to do so, I would need to invest a massive amount of my time into playing parts of the game that I didn't want to play, so that I could reach the stuff I enjoyed. Ultimately, I went ahead and brought multiple characters up to raid level. And I'm glad I did, because of all the fun I've had with those characters since, but it was only barely worth it for me. Plus it is a recurring problem. To this day, I haven't loved any of the story content that Bungie has introduced into Destiny. I enjoyed the TTK campaign more than the rest of the story missions, but not enough to want to play it multiple times. And yet that's exactly what I have to do if I want to continue having fun with my alts in the end game.

So that's the loop that Destiny creates for me. The parts I love, the parts that all my friends love doing together, are always at the very end of a long and often tedious (for me) process. So that's why I'm so hyper sensitive to every little design choice which I feel is less player-friendly (ie needlessly time consuming) than it should be. That's why it bothers me so much when Bungie adds content like the new quest in the April update: it's so mediocre, so half baked, adds nothing in terms of truly new or unique experiences... it's just filler in a game that already has to much filler IMO.

There have been many times over the past year that I've considered scrapping 2 of my characters and just playing as a single guardian. Yes, I would miss playing as my alts, but it would mean I'd need to spend so much less time with the parts of the game I don't want to replay. But then RNG comes into the mix. Going back to the examples you brought up, Bungie has gotten better when it comes to adding more clear, direct paths to some of the loot in the game. But a lot of it, most of it, is still RNG dependent. And to this day, Bungie stacks the RNG odds so far against the player that without 3 characters, I'd probably never get to use 90% of the gear I want to play with. Much as they've streamlined some of the process, it is still a major time commitment to get the gear I want to use, bring it up to Trials level, upgrade all the nodes... If I were limited to 1 set of activity drops per week, I would be missing out on huge amounts of the fun that I currently have with the end game. I love coming up with specialized builds and unique combos of perks, weapons, and armor. If I only enjoyed playing story missions or patrol, that would be easy. But again, the activities I enjoy are so dependent on light level that creating those options for myself takes A LOT of time. And I really don't feel like it should. Not to the extreme that it does.

I sort of hate flashy armor. Most of my characters are clad in black. So Chroma was irrelevant to me. I tried it out (and I've colored a couple of weapons just to make the stupid yellow outline on their boxes in my inventory)... but I really couldn't care less about it. Which means I have a vault full of all colors of Chroma. If, at some point, I change my mind and decide I like the concept of glowy armor... I can have as much as I want, in whatever color I want. Zero grinding, because it falls frequently enough that if you don't actually use it you build up a mountain.

So that's pretty much how I approach it as well, with a couple exceptions. Even so, it quickly becomes a pain in the ass. I have more pieces of Chroma than I'll probably ever use. That's not the problem.

I really like the new Titan Spektar armor. I finally got a full set, and I thought it would all look badass with blue chroma. But none of my pieces came with a blue slot, so I had to re-roll each piece many times before I finally landed on blue slots in each of them (seriously, I rerolled my chest piece 5 times in a row, landing back on yellow every single time, before the 6th roll finally came up blue).

Finally, I got my armor all re-rolled and ready for blue Chroma. I fired it all in... and I didn't like the way it looked. Didn't turn out the way I thought it would. So I decided to try red. I went through the whole process again, spending a bunch more time and glimmer. This time I was happy with it. I LOVE it. It looks totally awesome. But doesn't that seem like a completely insane process to need to go through for a silly cosmetic tweak? Doesn't every other game that offers any kind of armor color selection just let you choose the color and detail lines that you want from a menu? Why would anyone at Bungie think this is a good experience for the player? I don't care if it only took 10 minutes, it should take 30 seconds. Bungie puts so much work into making certain aspects of the game as smooth, efficient, and user-friendly as possible (UI, for example). Why add SO MANY HOOPS for me to jump through just to add some red lines to my armor? #FlipsTable #EndRant

Anyway, hopefully that all makes sense :) Just sharing my own perspective on this. I know I play the game differently than many others, and I'll run into different situations or issues. Just enjoy talking about this stuff with you and everyone else here :)

locked

1486 views

Personally, I wouldn't voice my feelings quite as drastically as Cody did, but I do have somewhat similar feelings. "Taking" is the wrong word, I think (for me at least). I've always found Destiny to be a game that contains these incredibly fun little nuggets, but I need to get through a bunch of other stuff that I don't enjoy just to reach those nuggets.

Right, hence my partner metaphor. Pretend you're dating a hot girl whom you love to bang. You don't get to bang her unless you do all this shit for her, and she never really does anything for you. Destiny is like Scarlett Johansson in Don Jon. She gives him just enough so that he will be willing to put up with her shit, but she expects him to make most of the sacrifices. So her giving is really selfish, rather than giving to give.

locked

1518 views

Right, hence my partner metaphor. Pretend you're dating a hot girl whom you love to bang.

Boy, you and I see video games very differently. Does explain a whole lot though. I heard that VR is making great strides in your.. uh, particular gaming desires/interactions...

locked

1509 views

Search for my essay "Casual Sex is killing video games". I'm very much a romantic here.

locked

1514 views

If so, then he's basing his point on the nonsense interpretation the gaming press made, which was that Eververse purchases were supposed to fund "free DLC" which was a nonsense idea anyway.

So where did it go? Ostensibly the whole point in compromising your game by adding micro transactions is that the money can be used to fund things that benefit the game. If the money does't get reinvested, then there is no tradeoff, and you're basically just making your game worse for nothing.

locked

1513 views

you're basically just making your game worse for nothing.

The microtransactions don't make Destiny any worse. I've never bought a single thing through the microtransaction system and my experience hasn't suffered.

locked

1517 views

. . . mostly because we haven't yet seen content developed after they were introduced.

I think you're making his point for him there. We've seen Festival of the Lost, SRL, and Crimson Doubles, and that's it. Oh, and a thirty second mission and half-assed quarter strike.

If so, then he's basing his point on the nonsense interpretation the gaming press made, which was that Eververse purchases were supposed to fund "free DLC" which was a nonsense idea anyway.

Didn't Bungie themselves say that the Eververse was added as a way to fund the Live team? I'll need to double check, but I'm pretty sure Luke Smith made statements along those lines on the Planet Destiny podcast back in October.

locked

1492 views

If so, then he's basing his point on the nonsense interpretation the gaming press made, which was that Eververse purchases were supposed to fund "free DLC" which was a nonsense idea anyway.

"Our plan is to use these new items to bolster the service provided by our live team for another full year, as they grow and create more robust and engaging events that we’ll announce later this year. It has been, and continues to be, our goal to deliver updates to the game. Going forward, our live team is also looking to grow beyond vital updates and improvements to focus on world events, experiences, and feature requests."
source: article on bungie.net

locked

1527 views

If so, then he's basing his point on the nonsense interpretation the gaming press made, which was that Eververse purchases were supposed to fund "free DLC" which was a nonsense idea anyway.

"Our plan is to use these new items to bolster the service provided by our live team for another full year, as they grow and create more robust and engaging events that we’ll announce later this year. It has been, and continues to be, our goal to deliver updates to the game. Going forward, our live team is also looking to grow beyond vital updates and improvements to focus on world events, experiences, and feature requests."
source: article on bungie.net

And they did deliver. People forget that stuff like the April Update included a lot of quality-of-life changes and a significant overhaul to the leveling/infusion systems. The recent Rocket bug is a reminder of how difficult it can be to make any small tweak without breaking something else, so for a small Live Team to deliver everything post-TTK, that the game wasn't destroyed on the scale of "The Division" by a major patch is pretty dang impressive. More so knowing how difficult it is to mess with Destiny's code.

Without Microtransaction budget, we would possibly still be on the previous system, whining about being burnt out on King's Fall (with Challenge Mode possibly being the only update that the budget would allow).

locked

1518 views

If so, then he's basing his point on the nonsense interpretation the gaming press made, which was that Eververse purchases were supposed to fund "free DLC" which was a nonsense idea anyway.

"Our plan is to use these new items to bolster the service provided by our live team for another full year, as they grow and create more robust and engaging events that we’ll announce later this year. It has been, and continues to be, our goal to deliver updates to the game. Going forward, our live team is also looking to grow beyond vital updates and improvements to focus on world events, experiences, and feature requests."
source: article on bungie.net

And they did deliver. People forget that stuff like the April Update included a lot of quality-of-life changes and a significant overhaul to the leveling/infusion systems. The recent Rocket bug is a reminder of how difficult it can be to make any small tweak without breaking something else, so for a small Live Team to deliver everything post-TTK, that the game wasn't destroyed on the scale of "The Division" by a major patch is pretty dang impressive. More so knowing how difficult it is to mess with Destiny's code.

Without Microtransaction budget, we would possibly still be on the previous system, whining about being burnt out on King's Fall (with Challenge Mode possibly being the only update that the budget would allow).

my response to Xenos up above covers a lot of my feelings on this, but my main point was to refute Narcogen's claim that the press made up the idea that the eververse was supposed to fund new content.

locked

1528 views

And they did deliver. People forget that stuff like the April Update included a lot of quality-of-life changes and a significant overhaul to the leveling/infusion systems.

Which would have happened anyway, because 1. people complained constantly, and 2. changing number values is in no way comparable to building interactive immersive worlds.

locked

1519 views

That Malok stuff was weak, though, but if that's what free is, then that's what it is. I don't necessarily think it got paid for by microtransactions, I don't think it made the game worse, it just didn't improve it as much as a bigger expansion would have . . .

I think it did make the game worse, by nature of being so weak and lazy that I have to wonder why they even bothered making it. If that's what our microtransactions are funding, I want the $10 I spent on the SRL record book back. While they never came out and said anything specific, they certainly let people believe we'd be getting something in return for microtransactions.

locked

1527 views

That Malok stuff was weak, though, but if that's what free is, then that's what it is. I don't necessarily think it got paid for by microtransactions, I don't think it made the game worse, it just didn't improve it as much as a bigger expansion would have . . .

I think it did make the game worse, by nature of being so weak and lazy that I have to wonder why they even bothered making it. If that's what our microtransactions are funding, I want the $10 I spent on the SRL record book back. While they never came out and said anything specific, they certainly let people believe we'd be getting something in return for microtransactions.

The "they did give us something!" argument will never hold water for me, if the stuff they give us isn't any good. Just adding junk to the game for the sake of "more content" doesn't cut it. And I'm sorry, but a lot of what was added in the april update is junk.

locked

1518 views

If everybody listened to you, there would be no micro transaction revenue to fuel new content. :p

locked

1606 views

If everybody listened to you, there would be no micro transaction revenue to fuel new content. :p

What was wrong with the old system, where you simply paid for new content directly in the form of a sequel or expansion pack?

locked

1516 views

Nothing. But you've got one heck of a conflict on interest decrying the presence of any micro transactions and then posting a topic talking about how we got nothing from micro transactions. :)

locked

1526 views

Nothing. But you've got one heck of a conflict on interest decrying the presence of any micro transactions and then posting a topic talking about how we got nothing from micro transactions. :)

Because I'm refuting the idea that you actually CAN get something worthwhile from them? I'm not sure why you think I'm confused. I don't actually want microtransactions to fund quality DLC / expansions, since I know that's impossible. That's like wanting a car that runs on water and being disappointed when you don't get one because of physics.

Just reminding people of my seemingly amazing powers to predict the future.

locked

1502 views

If everybody listened to you, there would be no micro transaction revenue to fuel new content. :p

What was wrong with the old system, where you simply paid for new content directly in the form of a sequel or expansion pack?

Divided playerbase.

Microtransactions = everyone having access to new content, whatever that may be. What if the price of admission to SRL was buying the $10 Record book when TTK launched? SRL would likely have failed as a result. Might have only been a single, unpolished map with a small playerbase.

Look at Halo 5. No Season pass, all content after launch is free. The result is a decent stream of almost-monthly updates, and nobody is left behind. All thanks to Microtransactions.

Uncharted 4. Cosmetic-only Microtransactions, all multiplayer content (including an upcoming co-op mode) is free.

A unified playerbase is way better than the old system, where access to the paid content was limited (often to a single playlist).

locked

1526 views

If everybody listened to you, there would be no micro transaction revenue to fuel new content. :p

What was wrong with the old system, where you simply paid for new content directly in the form of a sequel or expansion pack?

Divided playerbase.

Microtransactions = everyone having access to new content, whatever that may be. What if the price of admission to SRL was buying the $10 Record book when TTK launched? SRL would likely have failed as a result. Might have only been a single, unpolished map with a small playerbase.

Look at Halo 5. No Season pass, all content after launch is free. The result is a decent stream of almost-monthly updates, and nobody is left behind. All thanks to Microtransactions.

Uncharted 4. Cosmetic-only Microtransactions, all multiplayer content (including an upcoming co-op mode) is free.

A unified playerbase is way better than the old system, where access to the paid content was limited (often to a single playlist).

The DLC-Divided-playerbase is a logical fallacy. It assumes there are people who continue playing your game, but for some reason have decided not to pick up the DLC.

As a developer, your priority should be deducing that reason and figuring out how to avoid it in the future.

locked

1496 views

If everybody listened to you, there would be no micro transaction revenue to fuel new content. :p

What was wrong with the old system, where you simply paid for new content directly in the form of a sequel or expansion pack?

Divided playerbase.

Microtransactions = everyone having access to new content, whatever that may be. What if the price of admission to SRL was buying the $10 Record book when TTK launched? SRL would likely have failed as a result. Might have only been a single, unpolished map with a small playerbase.

Look at Halo 5. No Season pass, all content after launch is free. The result is a decent stream of almost-monthly updates, and nobody is left behind. All thanks to Microtransactions.

Uncharted 4. Cosmetic-only Microtransactions, all multiplayer content (including an upcoming co-op mode) is free.

A unified playerbase is way better than the old system, where access to the paid content was limited (often to a single playlist).

The DLC-Divided-playerbase is a logical fallacy. It assumes there are people who continue playing your game, but for some reason have decided not to pick up the DLC.

As a developer, your priority should be deducing that reason and figuring out how to avoid it in the future.

Wait, what?

It doesn't make that assumption at all - THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS. It's what has happened to every single game that has ever offered paid DLC, EVER.

And the reason is really, really simple: games are fun, but they cost money, and if you can play without paying, some people will, even if their experience is not 100% of what other people get. So some kid gets the vanilla game for Christmas, but doesn't have the money for map packs 6 months later. Or some guy buys the vanilla game, enjoys it, but on principle says "I'm not paying $15 for 3 more maps - I'll just play the existing 10." Or whatever.

Are you really suggesting that the divided playerbase doesn't happen, or that the reason for its existence is a mystery?

locked

1481 views

And the reason is really, really simple: games are fun, but they cost money, and if you can play without paying, some people will, even if their experience is not 100% of what other people get. So some kid gets the vanilla game for Christmas, but doesn't have the money for map packs 6 months later. Or some guy buys the vanilla game, enjoys it, but on principle says "I'm not paying $15 for 3 more maps - I'll just play the existing 10." Or whatever.

This isn't Halo, though, when map packs caused a divide that made basically everyone unhappy.

I'd be really interested to see how many people continued to play Destiny post-TTK without actually purchasing TTK. I have no way to know, obviously, but I can't imagine that's a large number.

locked

1488 views

If everybody listened to you, there would be no micro transaction revenue to fuel new content. :p

What was wrong with the old system, where you simply paid for new content directly in the form of a sequel or expansion pack?

Divided playerbase.

Microtransactions = everyone having access to new content, whatever that may be. What if the price of admission to SRL was buying the $10 Record book when TTK launched? SRL would likely have failed as a result. Might have only been a single, unpolished map with a small playerbase.

Look at Halo 5. No Season pass, all content after launch is free. The result is a decent stream of almost-monthly updates, and nobody is left behind. All thanks to Microtransactions.

Uncharted 4. Cosmetic-only Microtransactions, all multiplayer content (including an upcoming co-op mode) is free.

A unified playerbase is way better than the old system, where access to the paid content was limited (often to a single playlist).

The DLC-Divided-playerbase is a logical fallacy. It assumes there are people who continue playing your game, but for some reason have decided not to pick up the DLC.

As a developer, your priority should be deducing that reason and figuring out how to avoid it in the future.

Wait, what?

It doesn't make that assumption at all - THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS. It's what has happened to every single game that has ever offered paid DLC, EVER.

And the reason is really, really simple: games are fun, but they cost money, and if you can play without paying, some people will, even if their experience is not 100% of what other people get. So some kid gets the vanilla game for Christmas, but doesn't have the money for map packs 6 months later. Or some guy buys the vanilla game, enjoys it, but on principle says "I'm not paying $15 for 3 more maps - I'll just play the existing 10." Or whatever.

Are you really suggesting that the divided playerbase doesn't happen, or that the reason for its existence is a mystery?

Sorry, I probably should have worded that better.

DLC Divided playerbases do happen, but they're not really a big issue unless you as a developer are doing something wrong:

- Quality: People who buy your DLC aren't satisfied, as a result of reviews and word-of mouth, you sell less.

- Marketing: People who buy your DLC are satisfied, but people have a hard time learning about it or why it's a good value.

-Price: People who buy your DLC are satisfied, but it's too expensive for a significant portion of your market.

There are ways to fix all these issues, and Microtransactions is one of them. I just happen to think that the end doesn't justify the means, in that case.

locked

1487 views

The DLC-Divided-playerbase is a logical fallacy. It assumes there are people who continue playing your game, but for some reason have decided not to pick up the DLC.

The key word is DLC. True expansion packs do not have this problem.

locked

1486 views

- No text -

locked

1433 views

- No text -

locked

1396 views

I wouldn't put it that way. Just by something being downloadable does't make it DLC. Otherwise, any full game offered on the store is DLC.

Expansion packs are about cohesiveness and interconnectedness of the content, whereas DLC is about interchangeable content. Expansion packs deliver an experience where the content is related and builds upon itself, creating something that almost resembles a new game. It is sold in large chunks because the content is woven together, and to remove anything would be to unravel the experience.

DLC is about mixing and matching, and creating standalone experiences that can be skipped and have little impact on the experience (or else they'd be included). This is why they can be sold individually.

locked

1399 views

A unified playerbase is way better than the old system, where access to the paid content was limited (often to a single playlist).

The DLC-Divided-playerbase is a logical fallacy. It assumes there are people who continue playing your game, but for some reason have decided not to pick up the DLC.

...No. I have played plenty of games where I didn't pick up the DLC. Resident Evil 5 immediately comes to mind, because I put hundreds of hours into that game, and I never bought half of the DLC for it.
My brother regularly plays Halo 4 on the 360, and hasn't gotten any DLC, so... ya know...

As a developer, your priority should be deducing that reason and figuring out how to avoid it in the future.

Hence the cosmetic microtransactions. Win/win.

locked

1498 views

A unified playerbase is way better than the old system, where access to the paid content was limited (often to a single playlist).

You do expansion packs, not DLC. Fragmentation is less of a problem if your content drops are huge and few, and practically a new game altogether. The old players play the old game, and the new ones the new. Fragmentation is a problem when your DLC is 'mix and match', rather than 'must have'.

locked

1509 views

- No text -

locked

1385 views

Does this forum have an ignore feature?

locked

1543 views

Back to the forum index

RSS Feed of thread

DBO Forums

How's that new model working out? (Destiny)

Wow, you're more bitter than us and you're not even playing!

Wow, you're more bitter than us and you're not even playing!

Not wrong though, sadly

Meh, I mostly agree with Korny, Y2 has not disappointed me

Working out just fine.

Cody only plays raids anyway

Working out just fine.

Comparing Destiny to itself is fine, but...

::beer toast::

Comparing Destiny to itself is fine, but...

Comparing Destiny to itself is fine, but...

Comparing Destiny to itself is fine, but...

Yep. Totally fair point.

Two Words

Disagree.

Disagree.

Disagree.

Disagree.