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Ghost in the Shell (Off-Topic)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, March 31, 2017, 14:38 (2581 days ago)

If you are curious about the film that inspired Bungie's Oni…… well just go watch the 1995 original instead. In a world where I hoped Arrival would usher in a new age of intelligent Sci-Fi, I guess we aren't there yet.

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Ghost in the Shell

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Friday, March 31, 2017, 14:54 (2581 days ago) @ Cody Miller

If you are curious about the film that inspired Bungie's Oni…… well just go watch the 1995 original instead. In a world where I hoped Arrival would usher in a new age of intelligent Sci-Fi, I guess we aren't there yet.

To be fair, Arrival has just come out. I already bought the tickets for GitS, though, so while I thank you for the input, I'm still going to see it. :p

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Ghost in the Shell

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Friday, March 31, 2017, 15:00 (2581 days ago) @ ZackDark

If you are curious about the film that inspired Bungie's Oni…… well just go watch the 1995 original instead. In a world where I hoped Arrival would usher in a new age of intelligent Sci-Fi, I guess we aren't there yet.


To be fair, Arrival has just come out. I already bought the tickets for GitS, though, so while I thank you for the input, I'm still going to see it. :p


I've yet to see Logan, since we don't go to the theater too often, and Power Rangers was higher on my to-watch list (it was great!), but after that I might go watch GoitS. Let me know if it's a matinee film or worth the full price!

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Ghost in the Shell

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Friday, March 31, 2017, 15:44 (2581 days ago) @ Korny

Will do.

Power Rangers was a fucking blast. Especially because I expected the absolute worst of it before a friend of mine convinced it was amazing enough to watch.

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Logan was good. Wolverine deserves R rated movies.

by Kahzgul, Friday, March 31, 2017, 16:12 (2581 days ago) @ Korny

There was a lot of ret-conning (LOTS of it) vs the comics, but I enjoyed the film a lot. It was a complete story with good acting and amazing action.

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How is it for people who don't care about X-Men?

by cheapLEY @, Friday, March 31, 2017, 16:19 (2581 days ago) @ Kahzgul

I never enjoyed the X-Men movies all that much, but always appreciated Hugh Jackman as Wolverine.

I couldn't really tell you a damn thing that happens in any of the movies or much about X-Men in general. Can I enjoy Logan as a standalone experience with basically no knowledge of the franchise?

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How is it for people who don't care about X-Men?

by Kahzgul, Friday, March 31, 2017, 16:22 (2581 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I never enjoyed the X-Men movies all that much, but always appreciated Hugh Jackman as Wolverine.

I couldn't really tell you a damn thing that happens in any of the movies or much about X-Men in general. Can I enjoy Logan as a standalone experience with basically no knowledge of the franchise?

I think you'll love it then.

There's a few weird moments where if you didn't see an earlier movie, you won't know who a character is or know exactly what they're referencing, but those are few and far between, and mostly explained via the course of the film so you'll get it later on (I missed a few films, and that's how I felt watching this, anyway).

Again, the only thing that bothered me was the stuff that was different from the comics. If you don't go in with that knowledge, you'll be able to enjoy the film fully for what it is. A great action film with an interesting coming of age story about an extremely late bloomer.

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Thanks!

by cheapLEY @, Friday, March 31, 2017, 16:27 (2581 days ago) @ Kahzgul

I thought the trailers looked good, but I wasn't sure how much it needed knowledge of the previous X-Men movies. I'm not much for going to the theaters, but I'll definitely keep this one on my rent list when it gets there.

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How is it for people who don't care about X-Men?

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Friday, March 31, 2017, 17:02 (2581 days ago) @ Kahzgul

I'm totally with Kahzgul here. If anything, you'll probably like Logan MORE as a result of not caring about the other films. But if you appreciate Wolverine as a character on his own, and especially Hugh Jackman's version, you MUST see it. Nowhere else in film has the truly tragic nature of his existence ever been depicted so well, nor has his animal rage.

IMO, Logan is one of the best films I've seen in recent memory, comic book characters or not.

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My one big reservation with Logan...

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Friday, March 31, 2017, 18:12 (2581 days ago) @ stabbim
edited by Korny, Friday, March 31, 2017, 18:15

I'm totally with Kahzgul here. If anything, you'll probably like Logan MORE as a result of not caring about the other films. But if you appreciate Wolverine as a character on his own, and especially Hugh Jackman's version, you MUST see it. Nowhere else in film has the truly tragic nature of his existence ever been depicted so well, nor has his animal rage.

IMO, Logan is one of the best films I've seen in recent memory, comic book characters or not.

Is that all the previews have made it look like a wholesale "The Last of Us" ripoff...

Jaded (but dangerous) old man who has lost pretty much everything reluctantly agrees to smuggle a special young girl across the country (at the behest of his only close companion) to reach a safe group that can help her, starting off with an initially-shaky relationship before bonding with her and becoming willing to risk everything for her.

Heck, even the marketing wasn't subtle...

[image]

The fact that they're actually making a Last of Us movie really just makes everything a bit weirder, I think...

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My one big reservation with Logan...

by cheapLEY @, Friday, March 31, 2017, 18:28 (2581 days ago) @ Korny

Jaded (but dangerous) old man who has lost pretty much everything reluctantly agrees to smuggle a special young girl across the country (at the behest of his only close companion) to reach a safe group that can help her, starting off with an initially-shaky relationship before bonding with her and becoming willing to risk everything for her.

That's not exactly an original concept, so I guess I don't really see the direct comparison. The Last of Us is just The Road with zombies, which is just one of countless stories and parent/child relationships.

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My one big reservation with Logan...

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Friday, March 31, 2017, 18:36 (2581 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Jaded (but dangerous) old man who has lost pretty much everything reluctantly agrees to smuggle a special young girl across the country (at the behest of his only close companion) to reach a safe group that can help her, starting off with an initially-shaky relationship before bonding with her and becoming willing to risk everything for her.


That's not exactly an original concept, so I guess I don't really see the direct comparison. The Last of Us is just The Road with zombies, which is just one of countless stories and parent/child relationships.

I really don't see how one could really call The Road a similar concept. The Road was a simple father-and-son survival film. The child wasn't particularly special, the dad didn't change as a character, and they weren't really going anywhere in particular besides trying to find a warmer region to stay.

The plot points and characters are completely different other than "an adult and child travel after a cataclysmic event".

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My one big reservation with Logan...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Friday, March 31, 2017, 18:43 (2581 days ago) @ Korny

I'm totally with Kahzgul here. If anything, you'll probably like Logan MORE as a result of not caring about the other films. But if you appreciate Wolverine as a character on his own, and especially Hugh Jackman's version, you MUST see it. Nowhere else in film has the truly tragic nature of his existence ever been depicted so well, nor has his animal rage.

IMO, Logan is one of the best films I've seen in recent memory, comic book characters or not.


Is that all the previews have made it look like a wholesale "The Last of Us" ripoff...

Jaded (but dangerous) old man who has lost pretty much everything reluctantly agrees to smuggle a special young girl across the country (at the behest of his only close companion) to reach a safe group that can help her, starting off with an initially-shaky relationship before bonding with her and becoming willing to risk everything for her.

Heck, even the marketing wasn't subtle...

[image]

The fact that they're actually making a Last of Us movie really just makes everything a bit weirder, I think...

It reminded me quite a bit of The Last of Us, but I didn't mind because it was so damn good. It killed any interest I had in watching a TLoU movie, because they already nailed it.

On top of that, they also managed to make a movie that is simultaneously the least "comic book-like" of all the X-movies, while also being the most true to what X-Men has always been about out of any of the movies. Quite the balancing act, really.

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ripoffs

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Friday, March 31, 2017, 18:54 (2581 days ago) @ Korny

Cayde is a ripoff of Deadpool, Logan is a ripoff of The Last of Us.

Maybe we're drawing comparisons from a limited menu?

I've read that LOGAN is basically a remake of SHANE, which sounds awesome.

I'm basically where CheapLey is regarding X-Men movies, but I'm really looking forward to seeing LOGAN this weekend.

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ripoffs

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Friday, March 31, 2017, 19:58 (2581 days ago) @ Kermit

I've read that LOGAN is basically a remake of SHANE, which sounds awesome.

LOL, I was actually getting ready to write this before I read all the way down. They've said it's heavily inspired by that film, Unforgiven, and a couple of road movies I haven't heard of.

I'm basically where CheapLey is regarding X-Men movies, but I'm really looking forward to seeing LOGAN this weekend.

I'll be interested to hear what you think. Logan is really not very much like the other X-Men movies, that much is certain. Whether that necessarily translates to you enjoying it as much as I did... who knows?

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Lol. Read the Wikipedia article.

by Funkmon @, Saturday, April 01, 2017, 06:50 (2581 days ago) @ Kermit

I liked Shane a lot. Top 5 Western of all time IMO. I googled it to see when it came out (53), and read the Wikipedia article. It "spoils" Logan. Ofc, it doesn't really, but I bet everyone would be pissed off if I said what the article said.

Anyway, saying it's like Shane has convinced me it's worth seeing.

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Movies, Movies everywhere

by Durandal, Monday, April 10, 2017, 15:53 (2571 days ago) @ Kermit

Cayde is a ripoff of Firefly's Mal, and Dr. Horrible's Captain Hammer, all played by Nathan Fillion.

Just because a guy makes a lot of jokes doesn't make him an R rated Bugs Bunny like Deadpool.

Anyway,

High concept Sci Fi, like Intersteller, Arrival, etc. all suffer because it's difficult to translate that concept into something a majority of the audience can understand. So you back fill the boring technical stuff with artificial, and slow, "character development".

The Martin was a good movie, but mostly because the technical aspects were painstakingly presented with humor or drama as a challenge to the main character. The weakest parts of that film were the other astronauts.

Interstellar threw in the whole time dilation point, and then the betrayal, for a nonsensical ending that might have well as been "a wizard did it". What should have been an opportunity to explore other worlds was distilled down to a few shots. And the whole "man hasn't been in to space, so go farm" was insultingly stupid.

I haven't seen GTS the movie yet, but I watched a bunch of the anime, and again you are trying to discuss pretty deep concepts about the mind, in 120 minutes. It's going to be tough to pull off. You could probably pick one thing, one aspect of it, and make it the focus of the movie and back fill with action or detective work and you might pull it off.

But I really think that the higher the concept, the better off you are trying to work it as a series on Netflix or something.

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Movies, Movies everywhere

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, April 10, 2017, 16:02 (2571 days ago) @ Durandal

Cayde is a ripoff of Firefly's Mal, and Dr. Horrible's Captain Hammer, all played by Nathan Fillion.

Just because a guy makes a lot of jokes doesn't make him an R rated Bugs Bunny like Deadpool.

Anyway,

High concept Sci Fi, like Intersteller, Arrival, etc. all suffer because it's difficult to translate that concept into something a majority of the audience can understand. So you back fill the boring technical stuff with artificial, and slow, "character development".

The Martin was a good movie, but mostly because the technical aspects were painstakingly presented with humor or drama as a challenge to the main character. The weakest parts of that film were the other astronauts.

Interstellar threw in the whole time dilation point, and then the betrayal, for a nonsensical ending that might have well as been "a wizard did it". What should have been an opportunity to explore other worlds was distilled down to a few shots. And the whole "man hasn't been in to space, so go farm" was insultingly stupid.

I haven't seen GTS the movie yet, but I watched a bunch of the anime, and again you are trying to discuss pretty deep concepts about the mind, in 120 minutes. It's going to be tough to pull off. You could probably pick one thing, one aspect of it, and make it the focus of the movie and back fill with action or detective work and you might pull it off.

But I really think that the higher the concept, the better off you are trying to work it as a series on Netflix or something.

Good points all. One reason I thought Moon was a better movie than the other two is that its story was better suited for a film.

BTW, saw Logan. It's the first superhero movie I've really enjoyed in a long time, in part because no one is knocking down large buildings in Act III [Yawn]. It had the potential to be even better than it was (it's no Dark Knight), but it was well done.

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Logan was good. Wolverine deserves R rated movies.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, March 31, 2017, 18:19 (2581 days ago) @ Kahzgul

There was a lot of ret-conning (LOTS of it) vs the comics, but I enjoyed the film a lot. It was a complete story with good acting and amazing action.

I'm not super knowledgeable about Comics, but I was under the impression that Days of Future past changed the timeline. So it's not so much a retcon as an alternate universe, similar to the Abrams Star Trek films.

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Logan was good. Wolverine deserves R rated movies.

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Friday, March 31, 2017, 18:22 (2581 days ago) @ Cody Miller

There was a lot of ret-conning (LOTS of it) vs the comics, but I enjoyed the film a lot. It was a complete story with good acting and amazing action.


I'm not super knowledgeable about Comics, but I was under the impression that Days of Future past changed the timeline. So it's not so much a retcon as an alternate universe, similar to the Abrams Star Trek films.

That's usually how comics achieve what fans call retconning honestly. It's almost always either time travel or an alternate universe or even a combination of the two. Rather than restart a universe from scratch they pretty much always have some cataclysmic event cause changes to the timeline.

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Logan was good. Wolverine deserves R rated movies.

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, April 01, 2017, 14:38 (2580 days ago) @ Cody Miller

It kind of completely ignores the previous events anyway. It really focus on the "now" of the movie and on some events between it and the previous titles, so even if it hadn't had a timeline reboot, you would still be able to follow it without any troubles.

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Ghost in the Shell

by Speedracer513 @, Dallas, Texas, Friday, March 31, 2017, 14:56 (2581 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I'm just curious (and I actually don't really know anything about GitS nor care whether it's good or not) -- did you see it already, or are you saying this after reading reviews?

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Ghost in the Shell

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, March 31, 2017, 17:52 (2581 days ago) @ Speedracer513

I'm just curious (and I actually don't really know anything about GitS nor care whether it's good or not) -- did you see it already, or are you saying this after reading reviews?

Saw it. To be fair I thought the original was interesting, but more so academically than in terms of entertainment. I was hoping it'd gain that in this adaptation.

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Ghost in the Shell

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Friday, March 31, 2017, 15:57 (2581 days ago) @ Cody Miller

A bunch of GitS stuff is up on Starz right now. If you want to watch it the original or some of the other video stuff, see if you accidentally subscribe to Starz (I know I'm often surprised to remember I do…)

(also COmixology has the manga on sale right now)

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Also on Hulu

by slycrel ⌂, Friday, March 31, 2017, 16:17 (2581 days ago) @ Vortech

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I liked it. Better than expected.

by slycrel ⌂, Friday, March 31, 2017, 16:16 (2581 days ago) @ Cody Miller

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Ghost in the Shell

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Friday, March 31, 2017, 18:58 (2581 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Not too surprised.

Controversial opinion incoming: INTERSTELLER < ARRIVAL < MOON

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Whoa

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Friday, March 31, 2017, 19:03 (2581 days ago) @ Kermit

Not too surprised.

Controversial opinion incoming: INTERSTELLER < ARRIVAL < MOON

Not sure I can compare MOON and ARRIVAL, but I love them, I also love Interstellar, but can get down with this list.

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Ghost in the Shell

by Chewbaccawakka @, The Great Green Pacific Northwest!, Friday, March 31, 2017, 19:18 (2581 days ago) @ Kermit

Not too surprised.

Controversial opinion incoming: INTERSTELLER < ARRIVAL < MOON

Let me fix that for you: MOON < INTERSTELLAR = ARRIVAL

I loved all three, but Moon was too predictable. That's something that drives me nuts in stories. :P

I only figured out Arrival about half way through and I loved it. Interstellar surprised me more than a couple times. I truly love that film, even if I still think it should have ended with **SPOILERS** Coop descending into Gargantua.

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Ghost in the Shell +1

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Friday, March 31, 2017, 19:44 (2581 days ago) @ Chewbaccawakka

Not too surprised.

Controversial opinion incoming: INTERSTELLER < ARRIVAL < MOON


Let me fix that for you: MOON < INTERSTELLAR = ARRIVAL

I loved all three, but Moon was too predictable. That's something that drives me nuts in stories. :P

I only figured out Arrival about half way through and I loved it. Interstellar surprised me more than a couple times. I truly love that film, even if I still think it should have ended with **SPOILERS** Coop descending into Gargantua.

The ending was to cutesy happy happy joy joy for me. Would have been more impactful the other way.

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Ghost in the Shell

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, March 31, 2017, 19:31 (2581 days ago) @ Kermit

Not too surprised.

Controversial opinion incoming: INTERSTELLER < ARRIVAL < MOON

Moon was the worst.

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Ghost in the Shell

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Friday, March 31, 2017, 19:40 (2581 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Not too surprised.

Controversial opinion incoming: INTERSTELLER < ARRIVAL < MOON


Moon was the worst.

Nah. On a different day I might argue that ARRIVAL was better, but INTERSTELLAR was a hot mess.

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Ghost in the Shell

by cheapLEY @, Friday, March 31, 2017, 20:07 (2581 days ago) @ Kermit

Nah. On a different day I might argue that ARRIVAL was better, but INTERSTELLAR was a hot mess.

I think Arrival is the best of the three. Interstellar is definitely a mess, but I still think I like it more than the others. I just like the concept, and I liked the journey it took me on. The music during the docking scene alone is worth the price of admission for me. Amazing sound design and gorgeous visuals will win me over just about every time, whereas, as good as they are, I don't necessarily need a compelling story. Or I guess more accurately, good execution of a compelling story. I think Interstellar was definitely compelling, it just wasn't necessarily told well.

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Ghost in the Shell

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, March 31, 2017, 20:11 (2581 days ago) @ Kermit

I much prefer a hot mess to a polished turd.

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Agree.

by Funkmon @, Saturday, April 01, 2017, 06:42 (2581 days ago) @ Kermit

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GITS: Standalone I/II > OG GITS > ... > Americanised GITS

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Friday, March 31, 2017, 20:37 (2581 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by INSANEdrive, Friday, March 31, 2017, 20:42

If anyone was expecting this movie to be any good, it's because they haven't seen (or just don't enjoy the cerebral nature of) the Original or it's Early 2000's Televised ilk (that is technically in it's own story arc reality).

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GITS: Standalone I/II > OG GITS > ... > Americanised GITS

by Harmanimus @, Friday, March 31, 2017, 21:49 (2581 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Personally, I think Innocence is the best of the series. So underloved.

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Innocence is pretty heavy. It ain't a kick back movie.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Friday, March 31, 2017, 21:52 (2581 days ago) @ Harmanimus

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GITS: Standalone I/II > OG GITS > ... > Americanised GITS

by cheapLEY @, Friday, March 31, 2017, 23:07 (2581 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I have never experienced any former version of GitS. Honestly, when I see the new one at some point, I will go into it expecting a decent Hollywood action movie. I honestly couldn't care less if it's a faithful adaption or not. I think faithful adaptions are overrated. If I wanted faithful, I'd just watch/read the original product. I like seeing new takes on things.

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GITS: Standalone I/II > OG GITS > ... > Americanised GITS

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Saturday, April 01, 2017, 01:17 (2581 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I have never experienced any former version of GitS. Honestly, when I see the new one at some point, I will go into it expecting a decent Hollywood action movie. I honestly couldn't care less if it's a faithful adaption or not.

Supposedly the film takes elements of all of the GitS versions, which sounds neat, and should make for a solid standalone story if done well.

I think faithful adaptions are overrated. If I wanted faithful, I'd just watch/read the original product. I like seeing new takes on things.

Totally. I'd hate to be the total neckbeard who says stuff like "it ruined my childhood" or "the book/original is so much better". It's that kind of cynical perspective that causes you to go in with a mental checklist of reasons to hate something rather than trying to see what the studio is trying to do with the property, or simply going in and letting yourself be entertained. Sure, I'll pick a movie apart after I watch it, but for the most part, I try to enjoy things all the way through before I do that.

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Rebuttle: Ghostbusters (2016).

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Saturday, April 01, 2017, 12:59 (2580 days ago) @ Korny

INSANEdrive If anyone was expecting this movie to be any good, it's because they haven't seen (or just don't enjoy the cerebral nature of) the Original or it's Early 2000's Televised ilk (that is technically in it's own story arc reality).

----

cheapLEY I have never experienced any former version of GitS. Honestly, when I see the new one at some point, I will go into it expecting a decent Hollywood action movie. I honestly couldn't care less if it's a faithful adaption or not.


Korny Supposedly the film takes elements of all of the GitS versions, which sounds neat, and should make for a solid standalone story if done well.

cheapLEY I think faithful adaptions are overrated. If I wanted faithful, I'd just watch/read the original product. I like seeing new takes on things.


Korny Totally. I'd hate to be the total neckbeard who says stuff like "it ruined my childhood" or "the book/original is so much better". It's that kind of cynical perspective that causes you to go in with a mental checklist of reasons to hate something rather than trying to see what the studio is trying to do with the property, or simply going in and letting yourself be entertained. Sure, I'll pick a movie apart after I watch it, but for the most part, I try to enjoy things all the way through before I do that.

----

I'd say these are fair points, but with reservations. These movies don't seem to me like a re-imagining of an IP, but instead a blatant money grab with the help of name power. If they were a re-imaging, then why so many frame for frame call backs? That isn't for people who haven't seen the original, but those who have! Who WILL be making comparisons! Also by calling it purely GHOST IN THE SHELL, instead of GHOST IN THE SHELL: CYBORG CONSPIRACY or whatever, denotes a comparison automatically as without an original you would not have the copy/remake/re-imagining... unless you've seen the TV show that is. (Did you see what I did there?)

The TV show is a complete re-imagining of Ghost in the shell (through they do use some stories from the manga). The TV show and The 1995 Movie are two different universes of the same thing. Shoot! They recently made a third version called Arise - THAT is a ANOTHER re-imagining. Same backbone, but NEW stuff. New Foes. New story-lines. New philosophies and questions. Even some political intrigue to boot!

This 2017 Ghost in the Shell smashes a bunch of stuff from those three re-imaginings, then re-imagines all of that. I have to say, I find such suspect. It's very... Call of Duty-esk.

Meh. :(

by Claude Errera @, Saturday, April 01, 2017, 03:07 (2581 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

The original (in Japanese, with subtitles) came to our local art theater a month or two ago. I went (with SchoolyD, and Tarehart, and Nico).

I fell asleep.

That's only the second time in my life I've fallen asleep in a movie theater. (The first was 2001.)

Meh. No interest in seeing the modern version. Pretty unimpressed with the original.

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A lot of people have that reaction.

by Funkmon @, Saturday, April 01, 2017, 06:05 (2581 days ago) @ Claude Errera

It spoiled anime to a lot of Western people. It's probably important as a time/place thing, with the hyper philosophical cyberpunk paving the way for things like The Matrix, but you're right. The movie is relatively dull. Even the action is fairly lame.

My dad fell asleep during The Passion of the Christ at the theater.

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Not surprised honestly.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Saturday, April 01, 2017, 12:06 (2580 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Much like it's 2nd movie (Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence), but to a FAR lesser degree, the 1995 (so...21 years ago) Ghost in the Shell is not a sit down/brain off movie. So if someone was to go in and not know what to expect, or base their expectations off of modern sci-fi/action cinema, it would defensibly come across as a slow, plodding movie. If I had to guess I would have to say you weren't expecting the far more eastern style of pacing. Expecting a movie that went comma, comma, comma, not period then breath. Period then breath. Period then breath. I'm guessing you probably fell asleep during the 2 or 3 minute scene of just life in the city, which is a very slow-almost-still scene. I should note, that Destiny also has these moments (even if it is a pace we ourselves make), as I commented recently about the mood of Destiny.


Here is another example of what I mean: If someone watched the movie Pacific Rim with an expectation of a story for WHO KNOWS whatever reason; then they would likely leave the movie thinking two or three stars. Yet if someone went in to the movie with the expectation of giant FREEK'N robots smashing fists, swords, ion cannons, or whatever else into acid spewing bio-luminescent behemoths in a death battle to shatter the lands around them... then yes. Five stars.

Not surprised honestly.

by Claude Errera @, Saturday, April 01, 2017, 14:45 (2580 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I'm guessing you probably fell asleep during the 2 or 3 minute scene of just life in the city, which is a very slow-almost-still scene.

Nope. I fell asleep during the final fight scene.

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Maybe there's some HBO / DBO Meme To Explain This?

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, April 01, 2017, 15:00 (2580 days ago) @ Claude Errera

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What front page?

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Saturday, April 01, 2017, 15:12 (2580 days ago) @ Ragashingo

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Exactly!

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, April 01, 2017, 15:22 (2580 days ago) @ Xenos
edited by Ragashingo, Saturday, April 01, 2017, 15:57

Well... to be more precise, exactly wrong. There's another one that only long time Bungie.org members might be able to recall.

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From a linguistics perspective, Arrival's groan inducing.

by Funkmon @, Saturday, April 01, 2017, 06:19 (2581 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by Funkmon, Saturday, April 01, 2017, 06:27

It completely misrepresents not only the nigh debunked Sapir-Whorf hypothesis as correct, but what linguists actually do, using writing as a substitute for the language in the movie, when they are very different things (among some milder facepalms).

Imagine a sci-fi movie that has a plot hinging on someone linking the electroweak force to the strong force, and he solves this problem by studying planetary motion and ballistics based on the principles of the classical elements.

As for GITS, probably won't be able to see it until Monday.

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From a linguistics perspective, Arrival's groan inducing.

by Kahzgul, Sunday, April 02, 2017, 05:45 (2580 days ago) @ Funkmon

It completely misrepresents not only the nigh debunked Sapir-Whorf hypothesis as correct, but what linguists actually do, using writing as a substitute for the language in the movie, when they are very different things (among some milder facepalms).

Imagine a sci-fi movie that has a plot hinging on someone linking the electroweak force to the strong force, and he solves this problem by studying planetary motion and ballistics based on the principles of the classical elements.

As for GITS, probably won't be able to see it until Monday.

Interesting. So the Sapir-Whorf is debunked? Was it the tail wagging the dog, then, and language comes from culture rather than shapes it? That would make sense. Something else? I know precious little about the subject, but have always found it intriguing.

With regards to the actual movie: Remember when a fisherman in Africa caught a Coelacanth? A fish people had previously believed to have been extinct for millions of years? Given the other suppositions in the film (gravity control, ships disappearing in mist, time-memory-travel), could the linguistic elements be akin to catching a Coelacanth or is it something that just could not ever be considered plausible no matter what? I ask because I didn't understand your physics example. Please pardon my plebeian mind.

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From a linguistics perspective, Arrival's groan inducing.

by Funkmon @, Sunday, April 02, 2017, 21:38 (2579 days ago) @ Kahzgul

It completely misrepresents not only the nigh debunked Sapir-Whorf hypothesis as correct, but what linguists actually do, using writing as a substitute for the language in the movie, when they are very different things (among some milder facepalms).

Imagine a sci-fi movie that has a plot hinging on someone linking the electroweak force to the strong force, and he solves this problem by studying planetary motion and ballistics based on the principles of the classical elements.

As for GITS, probably won't be able to see it until Monday.


Interesting. So the Sapir-Whorf is debunked? Was it the tail wagging the dog, then, and language comes from culture rather than shapes it? That would make sense. Something else? I know precious little about the subject, but have always found it intriguing.

You know, I just saw Noam Chomsky (the Einstein of linguistics; he essentially single handedly invented modern linguistics) give a lecture about this very thing on Saturday.

Here's the consensus hypothesis, though there are others: language itself was initially developed internally, and we think people basically talked to themselves in their heads. This leads to many advantages, such as record keeping.

For example, if you develop a counting system, you can count. Those people whose languages don't have words for individual numbers cannot count in that language, and can't track the difference between 14 and 18 for example. This appears to lend credence to Whorfianism, right? No. The studies were flawed and did not answer the question posed. If you were told to not sit and count, and some guy threw 40 rocks in a bucket and 30 in another, you wouldn't be able to tell reliably how many rocks are in each bucket. You couldn't count, you had no record keeping. Therefore you are unable to count, right? No. Dump the buckets out and see the rocks, and you can do it. In the same way, these people without a counting system in their language can count, but they like to see the things they are counting. They work fine in market economies, it's just hard for them to remember things for which they don't have names.

Another example: you meet 20 people at a party and remember their names. Your wife asks who you met. You say Rachel, Steve, and so on. You can probably get 20. If you don't remember their names, you could try to describe them or what they do, but you're not going to be able to conjure up every single one. If reminded, you'll remember them all, but out of your ass, without the aid of names, you can't list them all off. So, again, you remember them all, but your language prohibits you from actually expressing this and keeping track.

As people lived together and they realized they had this capability, communicating their record keeping to others became an option. We see this happen fairly quickly on an archaeological scale, conflating culture with language. Language enables culture.

Because it appears so quickly, and all languages to which we have access follow the exact same rules, it's a very simple evolution.

Now I know what you're thinking. Languages don't follow the same rules. Not at the surface, no. But with x-bar theory, a parsimonious model of the deep structure syntax of human speech is possible, and all languages follow its rules. It's actually a complicated idea. If you want, I can explain it, but it requires a lot of information. In short, each lexical item can have adjuncts, specifiers, and complements, and each connection is treated as a slightly larger element in the final phrase. Each language follows this principle.

Hence, all languages are governed by the same simple rules, which can provide an infinite amount of variety in sentences, but not their structure.

Lexicon, that is the words of a language, are variable, and come from the origin point's culture. They also don't change how we think.

Famously, blue wasn't a color in Ancient Greek. The sea was wine dark and the sky was copper colored. However, they painted statues with blue. They used blue reliably and consistently. They knew blue, just didn't have a word.

We can determine genetic relationships between languages using words, and from this we can see that native Sri Lankan languages are cousins to the languages of Iceland and England and Spain. By the same method, we can see that Hungary has a completely different language than its neighbors, and is closely related to Finnish.

Armenia and Georgia have wholly unrelated languages, but a similar culture. The Estonians and the other Baltic countries are similar in culture...but the Estonians speak a different language family than the other ones. Compare the Sami, the fur wearing reindeer herders of Lapland, and the Hungarians. Language is highly similar, yet dissimilar cultures. The Irish and the people of Ceylon. Can we say their shared language heritage resulted in a shared culture? I don't think we can.

Again, our simple language structure, common to all the world's languages, was a biological evolution that resulted in being able to develop cultures, but the cultures are not a product of the language.

With regards to the actual movie: Remember when a fisherman in Africa caught a Coelacanth? A fish people had previously believed to have been extinct for millions of years? Given the other suppositions in the film (gravity control, ships disappearing in mist, time-memory-travel), could the linguistic elements be akin to catching a Coelacanth or is it something that just could not ever be considered plausible no matter what? I ask because I didn't understand your physics example.

The Coelacanth is a lobe finned fish, and was known to fossils, which had ended at the K-T boundary (the Cretaceous period). As we globalized, scientists discovered people in the west Indian ocean and Indonesia had been catching these fish for a long time, and they hadn't become extinct. This is surprising, but had zero effect on any models of evolution by natural selection or geology. It's exactly the same as if we found a Tasmanian tiger somewhere or an ivory billed woodpecker.

The assumptions of the movie are similar to us finding a live animal that breathes quartz and has no DNA, and we found it by studying ice cores and inferring its existence. It's possible for those two things to happen, that some aliens don't have DNA or DO breathe quartz, but this doesn't mean that humans can. Deep language structure is essentially programmed into us. All humans have the same programming.

When made up languages follow the rules of deep structure, people can use them like languages. When they do not follow these rules, peoples' brains treat them as puzzles. Idiot savants who are linguistically gifted but have zero puzzle skills cannot do artificial languages that do not have a deep structure.

Hence, we could probably translate an alien language that doesn't work like human language. We could never learn it as babies or dream in it, or have it exist in our language processing centers.

Furthermore, the language not having a time distinction isn't actually that weird. Greenlandic doesn't. Burmese doesn't. It's not like those guys are time travelers. Also, inferring this from their orthography, or writing system, is absurd.

We have had many writing systems on Earth and zero of them have had such a connection to the language whence they originated that they couldn't be adapted. For example, the alphabet was developed once. Punic, Hebrew, Latin, Greek; these were the same alphabet, adapted from disparate languages to others with zero effect on the language. Greek used to be written right to left, just like Punic. Then it switched from right to left to left to right on alternating lines. Then it moved to left to right. Is there a change in their thinking? Or their language? No. Ancient Egyptian had tons of writing systems. Hieratic, hieroglyphs, cursive hieroglyphs, all reading in different ways, some of which could be read in any direction. Did they have 3 languages? No. Did they have time travel powers being able to read in any direction with no obvious indicator (except signs were flipped L/R, but not U/D or other directions)? No.

This is because language is innate, writing is taught. Children just pick up language. They have to be taught writing. Writing was not in use for most of human culture, and was likely developed as an accountancy system, a way of externalizing and making physical language. It's as different to language as Ansel Adams photos are to Yosemite.

In the same way you couldn't hike Yosemite by watching a series of photos, you can't speak a language by deciphering a writing system.

So, we meet some aliens who breathe quartz and have no DNA (have language that humans literally cannot process as language) and we infer their existence through ice cores (we understand their language through writing). Now that we know it's possible, a really smart scientist learns to, with zero biological manipulation, breathe quartz and have no DNA by looking at ice cores (modify her brain's structure to see through time, breaking all rules of causality and biology).

That's the level of dumb it is.

However, it's just a sci fi movie. Sci Fi movies have conceits, usually FTL or something, and this one has a few big conceits relating to physics, as you mentioned, and linguistics. It's​ not what I would consider smart science fiction. Just science fiction.

PS. Minor facepalms include needing an academic as a Farsi interpreter, attaching significance to translations of a Sanskrit word, and a few other throw away references to language study.

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From a linguistics perspective, Arrival's groan inducing.

by Kahzgul, Monday, April 03, 2017, 05:16 (2579 days ago) @ Funkmon

Thank you! That was fantastically enlightening.

Your quartz-breathing metaphor is great, and I'm still laughing thinking about it. That makes perfect sense now.

For the purposes of the film, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief when it comes to the time traveling thing, since that's the conceit of the entire film (not actually time traveling, but having memories that are, as Vonnegut would put it, unstuck in time), but I now understand what you're saying about the linguistics being laughable. It's a shame. I loved that film, and - from my standpoint of linguistic ignorance - it was flawless. Design, direction, editing, acting, and story were all executed to a T without being overwrought.

Follow up questions: How does language and it's cultural use relate to thought? Since Japanese linguistic culture values creative metaphor, the kids growing up who are good at metaphors tend to view those who aren't as dumb. The language hasn't created that in their heads, but the culture has placed emphasis on developing a language that is well suited to that purpose, correct? Or like how Germans disdain use of the irregular words in their language (my professor in college told me to memorize all of the irregular words so that I might never accidentally use them), and value efficient speech (despite their language often being inefficient purely in terms of how long the words are). Is that a modern reaction to, shall we say, historically poor choices when it came time to making new words?

I've also read that people think Americans are inventive because we have a language that easily accepts the creation of new words, but it seems you're saying it's more likely that we have a culture that easily accepts invention and thus we feel liberated to invent new words on our own, and that would be the same no matter which language we spoke?

This is really neat to me, as it's a thing I've often heard people who know nothing about it discuss, so I really appreciate your expertise here. If this is all beneath you and bothersome, I understand. Frankly, I'm really impressed with the explanation you already gave me; it was far more than I'd hoped for!

Thanks again!

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*LONG* Hist of English, etymology, why Brit English is newer

by Funkmon @, Monday, April 03, 2017, 09:54 (2578 days ago) @ Kahzgul
edited by Funkmon, Monday, April 03, 2017, 10:09

This is long, like a full poop read, so I put in headings so it's easier to find your place.

Thank you! That was fantastically enlightening.

Your quartz-breathing metaphor is great, and I'm still laughing thinking about it. That makes perfect sense now.

For the purposes of the film, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief when it comes to the time traveling thing, since that's the conceit of the entire film (not actually time traveling, but having memories that are, as Vonnegut would put it, unstuck in time), but I now understand what you're saying about the linguistics being laughable. It's a shame. I loved that film, and - from my standpoint of linguistic ignorance - it was flawless. Design, direction, editing, acting, and story were all executed to a T without being overwrought.

Follow up questions: How does language and it's cultural use relate to thought? Since Japanese linguistic culture values creative metaphor, the kids growing up who are good at metaphors tend to view those who aren't as dumb. The language hasn't created that in their heads, but the culture has placed emphasis on developing a language that is well suited to that purpose, correct? Or like how Germans disdain use of the irregular words in their language (my professor in college told me to memorize all of the irregular words so that I might never accidentally use them), and value efficient speech (despite their language often being inefficient purely in terms of how long the words are). Is that a modern reaction to, shall we say, historically poor choices when it came time to making new words?

I know nothing about Japanese, but I don't find it implausible that people think that those who lack ability in a particular aspect of language are considered dumb. Speakers of ebonics are considered dumb by their apparent bad use of standard English grammar, despite the dialect having established and systematic rules.

Strong verbs

As for German, I find what he said not only untrue in experience, but also in prior plausibility. The Germanic strong verbs have their origin in Proto-Indo European ablaut, where aspect of the verb was marked with a vowel change, eg. give gave/geben gab. These maintain their old distinctions from 3000 years ago because the words are so common that they have resisted standardization into the -t of the modern preterite.

The less a word is used, the more likely it is to be supplanted by a new word or have its form changed. For example, if we look at English's hundred most used words, https://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/common-words-100.htm, they're almost all Germanic. These are original words from English (some exceptions are Old Norse derived words; I'll get to those later). Indeed, English's strong verbs show this. Many of our least used strong verbs are losing distinction, like bide, which is now mostly bide, bided, bided, as opposed to bide, bode, bidden.

So, again, I call bullshit.

Long words in German

Also, in terms of long words, it's just a compounding, and is no different than in English, except we put spaces in in our orthography. Think about something like a washing machine, or die Waschmaschine auf Deutsch, or vollautomatisch, fully automatic, or süßsauer, sweet and sour. This is no more inefficient than English. Indeed, it's exactly the same. We don't say "the washing the machine" or "the sweet and the sour sauce." We treat these multiple words as one, just with a space.

About valuing efficiency in German, I can't really speak to that. I haven't noticed it, but I know some Germans proclaim it, as do some English speakers.

I've also read that people think Americans are inventive because we have a language that easily accepts the creation of new words, but it seems you're saying it's more likely that we have a culture that easily accepts invention and thus we feel liberated to invent new words on our own, and that would be the same no matter which language we spoke?

Maybe, but it's probably more of a product of English and what happens when there is an accepted standard. In languages with a governing body, like German, Greek, Finnish, French, et cetera, there is often little language innovation, and you get a period of diglossia. That is, the spoken language and the written language diverge so they are hardly intelligible, until the standards either catch up with the speakers, like what happened in English's history, or until a new standard is made, like what happened in Greece.

A basic history of English, its influences from other languages, and word histories I enjoy

The English moved into England from Jutland, Anglia, and Saxony, and also probably from Frisia. They conquered the Celtic Britons, and pushed them to Wales and into Scotland. Incidentally, Wales comes from an Old English word for foreigner. The English started writing stuff down, not only in the futhorc runic alphabet, but in Latin script. This early period shows some loan words in from Latin, like monk, abbot, pope, and priest (guess who was spreading the Latin). Once the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms were unified in the late 9th century, in Wessex a writing standard was developed, the West Saxon dialect. Virtually all Old English was written in this dialect, and there was nigh zero language innovation in the areas of England for which we have writing.

The Normans invaded in 1066, and almost overnight English changed. Lots of the old grammar rules died, and many of the words were replaced with Scandinavian words and Norman French words.

Regarding the Scandinavian words, they came in from the north. Indeed, when the Danelaw, the area ruled over by the Swedes and Danes in England, was established, there's very good evidence that the English spoken there became a creole, a mix of the two languages. They were mutually intelligible, but had some different rules. The rules got dropped, and we ended up losing a lot of our grammar rules this way.

Tons and tons of basic Norse words were borrowed into English, like knife, egg, kid, race, raft, same. The fact that these words are so basic indicates an extreme mixing of the languages. For example, pronouns she and they are from Norse. One of our most basic verb forms, are, is from Norse. It's unheard of to borrow pronouns. I'll show you how close the languages were.

Some words of Norse origin are still extant with their English counterparts. While we lost English ei, and gained egg, we kept English ditch and Norse dike. We kept bench and bank, shirt and skirt, ship and skip, bleach and bleak. Do you notice any trends there?

English had this tendency to soften words, where Old Norse kept some of the hard sounds. We also inherited a lot of violent words from the Vikings. They gave us die, thrust, slaughter, gun, scathe, hit, and so on.

The French gave us almost all of our high class Latin lexicon from the period between 1066-1500, the Middle English period. England was ruled by the Norman French, and English was a low class language. Indeed, there are more words directly from French origin than there are from Germanic languages in modern English. As a prestige language, French was seen as better than English. We can famously still see this in some words. Cow vs beef, lamb vs mutton, that kind of crap.

By the late middle ages and Renaissance, Latin and Greek words started coming in plus some normal French words, some even reborrowed. For example, we have capital, meaning money or head, and we have chattle, meaning money, and cattle, meaning cows. Those are all the same Latin word, but separated at different times. Norman French had cattle, and money was associated with owning livestock. Then we got chattel, which was applied to money only, then later we got capital, which also referred to money.

Amusingly, because capital comes from caput, Latin for head, we have a redundancy in an idiom. So now, when we say "head of cattle", it's like we're saying "head of head," but in two different languages. Even more amusing is this, though: caput and head are the same word. Germanic languages underwent some sound changes that are highly regularized from proto Indo European, the language that gave us both Latin and English. One is that Cs turn to Hs. Card in Latin is heart in English, or canis to hound. One is that ps turn into fs. Pisces turns to fishes. Pod turns to foot. Let's apply these transformations.

caput -> hefut.

The Old English word for head is heafod.

This type of thing also happened from French itself. We have ward from Norman French, as in Robin being Batman's ward, and we have guard, which came in from standard French, later. Norman French had a W where standard had Gu, which is why William went to War with the English, as opposed to GUillome going to GUerre with the English.

Eventually, French was no longer the language of the nobility, and English returned to its previous state as the language of government, but changed so much by French that it was almost more French than English.

Before English could catch its breath, the renaissance and elightenment happened. English imported so many Greek and Latin words, the words direct from Latin in modern English began to outnumber the words from our Germanic base language. These had prestige, and a new hierarchy in English words formed.

In Ancient Rome, Greek was thought to be a high class language, and so it still is in Modern English. Consider the following words.

Smell, scent, aroma. Sweet, sugary, saccharine.

These are two sets of synonyms, but they seem to get progressively fancier. The first is a Germanic word, the middle is a French/Latin word, and the last is a Greek word. There's even a subtle distinction between Latin words and French words from Latin. Consider the following.

Odd, strange, peculiar, anomalous.

Same fanciness progression. A Germanic word, a French word, a Latin word, and a Greek word. We still perceive there to be some kind of hierarchy of words there, and it's not just due to infrequency of use.

For example, were I to say I'm going through the wood in the dale by uncouth ways, you'd think "why the fuck is he talking all old and shit?" They're Germanic words. However, were I to say "I traverse across the forest in the ravine via obscure passages," you'd think "why is he talking all fancy?" They're loanwords.

Anyway, by the 1700s English finally got a bit of a rest and efforts were made to standardize it and to start avoiding using loan words, though still more and more came in from the empire. They all failed, maybe because of this. England was the world's greatest power, and its language contact was unparallelled. It largely maintained the greatest empire the world had ever seen until basically the 1950s. By then, as England fell, America rose, and global commerce continued to affect English. We still have no actual English standard.

Other languages' linguistic purism

So if global commerce affected English, why are so many other languages averse to loan words? Well, from the 18-19th centuries in Europe, linguistic purism became a fad. This continued on the traditions of the insular languages in their standards by making loan words improper as the age of exploration and empire building continued. Some countries thought these standards and linguistic purism things were so important, they began outlawing words entirely and replacing them with native calques. Icelandic has a government body that does this (example: rafmagn is a calque, or literal translation, of electricity, meaning "amber power"). French has a government body that does this. Quebec has one. These aren't suggestions, either. They literally legislate what words can be in the languages. Other government bodies running things like German have been more lenient recently, but traditions die hard. English hasn't had a real standard in a thousand years, and some European countries make it illegal to use nonstandard speech in some situations.

tldr

To conclude, English is a bit special because most languages have been stable. German has been stable. Icelandic has been stable. French has been stable. English moved to an island, and just as they were getting standardized and not accepting new loanwords, the French and Danes took over, forcing in their languages to English. Once English started to get settled again, it became hip to start bringing stuff in from Latin and Greek. Once it started to get settled there, well, English had the empire. Empire's gone? Now we have the world market and internet.

While nobody knows exactly why English loves new words, that's my hypothesis, and it's broadly similar to hypotheses put forth by many actual experts. It has nothing to do with America, but exclusively to do with England.

American English is older than English English

In fact, America is far more conservative than England. America pronounces its Rs. Much of England developed a non-R pronouncing dialect after us, and indeed, this development is still happening in England. R pronouncing dialects are slowly losing their Rs. America retains old spellings like tire versus tyre, and even old words. For example, gotten is the past participle of get, a strong verb, as discussed before. England has eliminated that. They just say get and got. They're evolving out of that. Grammaticaly, they're also innovating, indicating the present subjunctive. "I suggested that he go shower," is a great sentence usable in America and in England circa 1850. However, in England now, that would be "I suggested that he should go and shower." The should indicated the present subjunctive, which is otherwise hard to hear in American English. They also put "and" in between "go" and the thing being done.

tldr tldr

So, in conclusion, Americans aren't the reason English has tons of loan words. The English are the reason. We take them now because we always have.

This is really neat to me, as it's a thing I've often heard people who know nothing about it discuss, so I really appreciate your expertise here. If this is all beneath you and bothersome, I understand. Frankly, I'm really impressed with the explanation you already gave me; it was far more than I'd hoped for!

I'm no expert. I'm just a guy who has always been interested in languages who decided to add on an English Linguistics degree while he is being forced to go to a college for teaching certifications in some sciences. I'll say that I'm more knowledgeable than most linguists regarding the history of English just due to the fact that most linguists don't care about that anymore, looking more into the social aspects or theoretical syntax, whereas I've actually done some (limited) historical language research, but I'm no expert.

Thanks again!

NP. I'll talk about language all day.

See also: http://anglish.wikia.com/wiki/Main_leaf

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*LONG* Hist of English, etymology, why Brit English is newer

by Kahzgul, Saturday, April 08, 2017, 09:16 (2573 days ago) @ Funkmon

You're the best, dude. Fascinating.

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Ok, saw it

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, April 01, 2017, 14:47 (2580 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I really liked it, but I'm ok with opinions that call it weak.

After about midway through, once the plot gets to it's crux point, it simply stops dead for some reason and drags on for a while. People who saw the original argued that it was akin to the city-shots from it, but the first half of the movie did that so much better I find it hard to concede it was a good thing.

Despite all those things, I really enjoyed the plot, photography and overarching philosophic discussion. I'll concede there is room to improve the execution.

Now on to watch the original. :)

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