Double Des2ny Reviews

Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen such contrasting reviews--it's kinda silly.

First, read this review from TrueAchievements. It's almost glowing.

Next, watch this one from Yahtzee--Notice he's making some damn good points! Then again, he goes on a tear about graphics--and holy crap, he makes a compliment. :-D

So what causes such massive polar opposition? Is it fanservice? Dedication? Skepticism? Annoyance?

Most times when a game comes out, the overall rating may be different, but in most circumstances, they have the same or similar discussion points. But if I never played the original Destiny, I would've had no idea what to think of it!

So do you guys agree with what TA and ZP have to say? Let me know!

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I do love me some zero punctuation.

Also that first reviewer... spelling and grammar are not his Matt Forte (that's a football joke you heathens).

Anyway, Zero has some good points and his review is pretty on point, excepting that Destiny 2's "going to a place and shooting some lads" is actually really fun, and also that it now includes a few things which cannot strictly be characterized as "going to a place and shooting some lads" because occasionally you have to shoot some vents or a spaceship or a weird cubish thing that somehow keeps the glimmer drill alive, but only the fourth time you kill it. My point is that D2 is fun, and zero skips right over that bit. The bits he does touch on, however, he's totally right about, and also he makes me laugh.

Back to review one: This is the weirdest milktoast review I've read about D2. He kinda likes all of it, doesn't really have any issues, thinks it's all in all an improvement, and then gives it a rating of 4.5/5, which is - in case you're keeping score, 90% or an A-, and in the realm of video game ratings, that puts it squarely in the MUST BUY BEST GAME OF THE YEAR EVAR category, which is, frankly, a little ridiculous given the very ho-hum "this is all marginally improved" nature of the review.

I would absolutely not describe a phrase like "They've increasing the number of activities there are for players, although the grind does eventually set in. That said, it doesn't quite feel like a sequel. There isn't much in the way of brand new content — a lot of what has been added is the same as before but just repackaged in some way." as "glowing." It's certainly not the way that I would describe a game that I thought was a 4.5/5.

Let's see: Horizon Zero Dawn. This game is fantastic! Is it perfect? Very nearly so. It lacks only New Game+ (which it now has, but at the time of the original review, it didn't) and some sort of multiplayer competitive mode (I'd love to see a Tomb Raider 2 style MP mode). That aside, it's a gorgeous, original game with great acting, an interesting plot, plenty to do, compelling combat, and pretty much everything I've always wanted from a video game where you are a vaguely native american-esque irish girl hunting robotic dinosaurs. Move over, Turok, there's a new lord of the sci-fi dino jungle! 4.5/5.

Destiny 2: Milktoast. Slightly above mediocre. Much room for growth and not much new past D1 which needed a lot of help. 4.5/5.

WHAT???

I want to point out that I don't agree with the milktoasty review of the first reviewer, and I don't agree with it about as strongly as I don't agree with his ridiculous points to adjectives correlations within the review itself.

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I am surprised game reviewers agree as much as the do quite frankly. There are many arguments to be made that Bioshock Infinite is a bad game (it is), yet it has 94 on metacritic and very few outlier reviews.

One can only conclude that either all game reviewers have the same tastes and there is not enough diversity of opinion, or the intelligence level is not high enough to give us diverging reviews.

For all the praise Blade Runner 2049 has gotten for example, there are numerous critiques regarding things like technomisogyny, the tone deaf treatment of race and slavery, the pacing, etc. There is a huge critical divide.

Most of the analogous critiques of Bioshock Infinite were from non gaming publications.

There is nothing wrong with polar opposite reviews.

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Is that because of the younger nature of the video game industry?

Most game reviews are more product review than art critique.

So while Bioshock Infinite is bad, it's still a competently executed, gorgeous FPS that tells a neat surface level story. That equates to a 9 or 10 in video game reviews, mostly across the board.

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Is that because of the younger nature of the video game industry?

Most game reviews are more product review than art critique.

So while Bioshock Infinite is bad, it's still a competently executed, gorgeous FPS that tells a neat surface level story. That equates to a 9 or 10 in video game reviews, mostly across the board.

I wouldn't call the FPS mechanics in Bioshock Infinite (or Bioshock for that matter) competently executed. But hey, what do I know.

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Is that because of the younger nature of the video game industry?

Most game reviews are more product review than art critique.

So while Bioshock Infinite is bad, it's still a competently executed, gorgeous FPS that tells a neat surface level story. That equates to a 9 or 10 in video game reviews, mostly across the board.

I wouldn't call the FPS mechanics in Bioshock Infinite (or Bioshock for that matter) competently executed. But hey, what do I know.

I don't think they're particularly good or engaging, but I'd say they're competent, especially for what the game was. I mean, I put the game down after a few hours because I was so bored. I honestly get the distinct impression that the game really should have been a walking simulator, but they knew they wouldn't get away with making that, so they made it a FPS instead.

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Is that because of the younger nature of the video game industry?

Most game reviews are more product review than art critique.

So while Bioshock Infinite is bad, it's still a competently executed, gorgeous FPS that tells a neat surface level story. That equates to a 9 or 10 in video game reviews, mostly across the board.

I wouldn't call the FPS mechanics in Bioshock Infinite (or Bioshock for that matter) competently executed. But hey, what do I know.

I don't think they're particularly good or engaging, but I'd say they're competent, especially for what the game was. I mean, I put the game down after a few hours because I was so bored. I honestly get the distinct impression that the game really should have been a walking simulator, but they knew they wouldn't get away with making that, so they made it a FPS instead.

Exactly my point. It could not even hold your interest.

And it's true. It could have been better as perhaps an adventure game.

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I am surprised game reviewers agree as much as the do quite frankly. There are many arguments to be made that Bioshock Infinite is a bad game (it is), yet it has 94 on metacritic and very few outlier reviews.

One can only conclude that either all game reviewers have the same tastes and there is not enough diversity of opinion, or the intelligence level is not high enough to give us diverging reviews.

No.

One can also conclude it was a good game. Or that its flaws were perceived to now significantly overcome its shortcomings. Remember, not everyone agrees with you, and those that don’t aren’t either part of a group thing or stupid. What you said up there is pretty dang insulting. I wish someone would wash your mouth out with soap or something...

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For all the praise Blade Runner 2049 has gotten for example, there are numerous critiques regarding things like technomisogyny, the tone deaf treatment of race and slavery, the pacing, etc. There is a huge critical divide.

Funny, one could say almost the exact same thing about Bioshock infinite. It was certainly criticized for things like treatment of race, slavery, sexism, time travel, and a whole host of other things. Hell we had some of those debates right here on our very forum!

Feels to me it’s just another case of “whatever Cody Miller doesn’t like is proclaimed to be inherently and universally bad.”

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For all the praise Blade Runner 2049 has gotten for example, there are numerous critiques regarding things like technomisogyny, the tone deaf treatment of race and slavery, the pacing, etc. There is a huge critical divide.

Funny, one could say almost the exact same thing about Bioshock infinite. It was certainly criticized for things like treatment of race, slavery, sexism, time travel, and a whole host of other things. Hell we had some of those debates right here on our very forum!

Feels to me it’s just another case of “whatever Cody Miller doesn’t like is proclaimed to be inherently and universally bad.”

Yes, because the DBO forum is full of professional video game reviewers. The debate was such precisely because we AREN'T writing for a pro magazine or website.

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For all the praise Blade Runner 2049 has gotten for example, there are numerous critiques regarding things like technomisogyny, the tone deaf treatment of race and slavery, the pacing, etc. There is a huge critical divide.

Funny, one could say almost the exact same thing about Bioshock infinite. It was certainly criticized for things like treatment of race, slavery, sexism, time travel, and a whole host of other things. Hell we had some of those debates right here on our very forum!

Feels to me it’s just another case of “whatever Cody Miller doesn’t like is proclaimed to be inherently and universally bad.”

Yes, because the DBO forum is full of professional video game reviewers. The debate was such precisely because we AREN'T writing for a pro magazine or website.

If you’ll remember, a large part of the discussion was spurred by an article on a website.

Do you really think that was the only site on the entire internet raising those points?

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If you’ll remember, a large part of the discussion was spurred by an article on a website.

Do you really think that was the only site on the entire internet raising those points?

I'm not talking about the entire internet. I'm talking about major gaming websites that do reviews. Bioshock Infinite was shredded by many hobbyist and non gaming sites when critically examined. But not by professional game reviewers.

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Feels to me it’s just another case of “whatever Cody Miller doesn’t like is proclaimed to be inherently and universally bad.”

Pokes head out from lurking.

You know what's worse than that? That Ragashingo guy who insists on crapping all over Cody's posts at nearly every opportunity. Seriously, get a new act.

Goes back to lurking.

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You want to maybe also address my argument? I certainly made an effort to address Cody’s. If not, then stick to lurking. At least you’re good at that.

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Oh, oh, is it time for me to enact my long-awaited vengeance?

(This is where I yell ad hominem and then we, I assume, parrot 'fallacy fallacy' back and forth in an infinite regress of logic and reason.)

Okay this is kind of a lot of effort for a dumb joke I should probably clarify that I don't mean any harm by it, nor was I actually holding some ludicrously petty grudge; I just have a good memory for dumb stuff like this and felt like making use of it.

But seriously, can people stop with all the being mildly dickish to each other? It's getting a bit... dumb.

Has there actually been some kind of uptick in this lately or have I just noticed a few of these incidents in a row now?

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But seriously, can people stop with all the being mildly dickish to each other? It's getting a bit... dumb.

Has there actually been some kind of uptick in this lately or have I just noticed a few of these incidents in a row now?

I wouldn't say it's an epidemic, but there does seem to be an uptick, and it's sad to see.

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Ragashingo been hating on Cody and exclusively targeting him for years. No uptick if you ask me. Unless you mean other things in general beyond Cody and Ragashingo. I can't speak to that one. :P

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Ragashingo been hating on Cody and exclusively targeting him for years. No uptick if you ask me. Unless you mean other things in general beyond Cody and Ragashingo. I can't speak to that one. :P

I’m not really sure what you mean by exclusively targeting Cody? That I only go after him? If that’s what you think, then cheapLEY, CruelLEGACY, Kahzgul, yourself (certainly!), narcogen, INSANEdrive, BeardFade, and even Kermit, Mig and multiple others might like to have a word with you. I have had strong words for all of thsese people and more over the years. Because I strongly disagreed with them.

Long story short, it’s exactly the same with Cody. I don’t hate on Cody, I reply in opposition to him because I disagree with his ideas and the way he sometimes expresses them. Any implication that I only go after him is petty, insulting, and just plain wrong. I will oppose and question anyone here equally if I feel they have their facts wrong or are being disrespectful to someone.

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Ragashingo been hating on Cody and exclusively targeting him for years. No uptick if you ask me. Unless you mean other things in general beyond Cody and Ragashingo. I can't speak to that one. :P

I’m not really sure what you mean by exclusively targeting Cody? That I only go after him? If that’s what you think, then cheapLEY, CruelLEGACY, Kahzgul, yourself (certainly!), narcogen, INSANEdrive, BeardFade, and even Kermit, Mig and multiple others might like to have a word with you. I have had strong words for all of thsese people and more over the years. Because I strongly disagreed with them.

Long story short, it’s exactly the same with Cody. I don’t hate on Cody, I reply in opposition to him because I disagree with his ideas and the way he sometimes expresses them. Any implication that I only go after him is petty, insulting, and just plain wrong. I will oppose and question anyone here equally if I feel they have their facts wrong or are being disrespectful to someone.

I only wish that when you disagreed, you didn't also insult.

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Ragashingo been hating on Cody and exclusively targeting him for years. No uptick if you ask me. Unless you mean other things in general beyond Cody and Ragashingo. I can't speak to that one. :P

I’m not really sure what you mean by exclusively targeting Cody? That I only go after him? If that’s what you think, then cheapLEY, CruelLEGACY, Kahzgul, yourself (certainly!), narcogen, INSANEdrive, BeardFade, and even Kermit, Mig and multiple others might like to have a word with you. I have had strong words for all of thsese people and more over the years. Because I strongly disagreed with them.

Long story short, it’s exactly the same with Cody. I don’t hate on Cody, I reply in opposition to him because I disagree with his ideas and the way he sometimes expresses them. Any implication that I only go after him is petty, insulting, and just plain wrong. I will oppose and question anyone here equally if I feel they have their facts wrong or are being disrespectful to someone.

I only wish that when you disagreed, you didn't also insult.

Or didn't bookmark and/or search for nine different instances of you disagreeing with other people just to show you don't dogpile one guy? That's just freakin' weird, man. :D

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He also dogpiles Cody more than others and more than his examples imply, but hey. Maybe he'll go and link to every post he's ever made this time to prove his point. :P

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Right, because if I had replied with “nuh uh” you would have backed down from your claim. My point was:

Any implication that I only go after him is petty, insulting, and just plain wrong. I will oppose and question anyone here equally if I feel they have their facts wrong or are being disrespectful to someone.

If you want to see me “dog piling” on Cody less then you should talk to Cody about the content of his posts.

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If you want to see me “dog piling” on Cody less then you should talk to Cody about the content of his posts.

Yeah. You're right. I saw what he was wearing. Totally asking for it.

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If you want to see me “dog piling” on Cody less then you should talk to Cody about the content of his posts.

It seems to me like they've been trying to talk you about the content of your posts, but you're possibly even more stubborn than Cody is.

You're free to disagree, and I happen to enjoy most of the discussion you bring to the table. I like that you encourage folks to back things up with evidence, I like that you call folks on their bullshit. I'd encourage you to be more accepting when folks call you on yours.

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If you want to see me “dog piling” on Cody less then you should talk to Cody about the content of his posts.

It seems to me like they've been trying to talk you about the content of your posts, but you're possibly even more stubborn than Cody is.

You're free to disagree, and I happen to enjoy most of the discussion you bring to the table. I like that you encourage folks to back things up with evidence, I like that you call folks on their bullshit. I'd encourage you to be more accepting when folks call you on yours.

If they’ve been talking about content they’ve chosen a strange way to do it. Talking about exclusively targeting someone is not talking about content. Talking about dog piling one one person more than others isn’t content. That’s frequency. And no, I’m not going to change that. I’m not going respond to someone less just because others are tired of me responding to them. I contend that it shouldn’t matter how much I “dogpile” on someone as long as each of my posts is fair, relevant to the subject at hand, and keeps to a high standard of respectful discourse.

Ok... about content and high standard of respectful discourse in my posts. Things like: “Raga, you often ask for sources or proof but didn’t back up what you just said” or “Raga, maybe you had a good point there but that personal dig you included at the end there vastly overshadowed the point you were trying to make” are content. And are legitimate type of complaints that can be made about me.

The former complaint I mostly dismiss. I put a lot of effort in trying to make sure I back my claims up with sources and have for years now. I’m not always perfect at it, and there are also times where I feel it isn’t necessary. And that’s kinda the rule I try and go by when making my posts and judging the posts of others: Is the claim common knowledge or probably true, or is it a more extraordinary claim that should have been presented along side some information backing it up. So yeah, I’m not going to make any changes here because I think I do a pretty decent job at all of this. And if anyone disagrees with me they’d better have a link handy! (I kid I kid... mostly. :p)

The latter... I think of all the posts in this thread, Kahzgul’s was the most effective because it nailed its point about content.

I only wish that when you disagreed, you didn't also insult.

I agree. And I sometimes drift wrongly to unnecessary insults to help illustrate points. But mostly they just get us all off topic.

I’ll do better.

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I appreciate the reply.

FWIW, my main point was the thing Kazghul was talking about with being insulting. I don't want to come across like I'm coming after you or anything like that. We're all guilty of using hyperbole, which very rarely doesn't come across as insulting, and I think we all realize it doesn't necessarily come from a bad place or have any intention of harm. It's just a problem of tone, which I suspect will always be a problem on any internet forum.

Again, I appreciate your posts and the thoughtfulness behind them. You've contributed more to this place in a real sense than I ever will.

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I’ll do better.

I appreciate the nature of your engagement, overall. Even when you get a little sharp, which I haven't ever felt was uncalled for or needlessly vicious.

I'm chiming in here because the original point seems to have been lost, and regardless of all this other bickering and finger-pointing in the middle of it; your consistency and focus (if it even matters, coming from me) is to be commended. It galls me a little to see this as the result, when those that could use a little perspective don't appear to consider (or frankly even care) what others here are observing.

Regardless the length one goes to in citing evidence to back up a point, there's no threshold at which a preponderance of evidence then makes the claimant wrong. And, because I'm not convinced we're ever going to exhaust our need for a certain type of glue around these parts; I'm going to give the pasty old horse another couple whacks in an effort to bolster your point: Stating an opinion isn't fact. Neither does stating an opinion as fact make it so.

It's important to me, as I'm sure it is to at least a handful of other souls here, that we preserve a particular tone and quality to our discourse. Regardless of the number of registered accounts, the audience is widening, as it is wont to do after every release, and a fair number of young impressionable minds are out there.

PS - Bioshock Infinite definitely had some issues, but "bad" is grossly unfair. Fight me.

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PS - Bioshock Infinite definitely had some issues, but "bad" is grossly unfair. Fight me.

We'll tag team.

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PS - Bioshock Infinite definitely had some issues, but "bad" is grossly unfair. Fight me.

We'll tag team.

Fireteam assemble!

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I called Bioshock bad, but then turned around and rephrased it as competent. So let me rephrase.

Bioshock Infinite’s gameplay is boring. The story was intriguing, but I was so bored by what I was actually doing that I didn’t care. I’d love to play the Gone Home version of Infinite, because I think the shooting mechanics were mediocre at the absolute best, and actually bad at the worst.

I can’t cite any examples, because I played it for five hours when it was new and haven’t touched it sense. That’s just how I recall feeling about it.

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I called Bioshock bad, but then turned around and rephrased it as competent. So let me rephrase.

Bioshock Infinite’s gameplay is boring. The story was intriguing, but I was so bored by what I was actually doing that I didn’t care. I’d love to play the Gone Home version of Infinite, because I think the shooting mechanics were mediocre at the absolute best, and actually bad at the worst.

I can’t cite any examples, because I played it for five hours when it was new and haven’t touched it sense. That’s just how I recall feeling about it.

I agree with your assessment. What's worse IMHO is that the gameplay actually undermined the story they were trying to tell. The violence of the protagonist runs counter to his character-development. Would love the Gone Home version though. Hypothetical racial power/violence equivalencies are problematic but there is enough there to make it worth engaging. Just not through the gameplay. IMHO.

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I called Bioshock bad, but then turned around and rephrased it as competent. So let me rephrase.

Bioshock Infinite’s gameplay is boring. The story was intriguing, but I was so bored by what I was actually doing that I didn’t care. I’d love to play the Gone Home version of Infinite, because I think the shooting mechanics were mediocre at the absolute best, and actually bad at the worst.

I can’t cite any examples, because I played it for five hours when it was new and haven’t touched it sense. That’s just how I recall feeling about it.

I agree with your assessment. What's worse IMHO is that the gameplay actually undermined the story they were trying to tell. The violence of the protagonist runs counter to his character-development. Would love the Gone Home version though. Hypothetical racial power/violence equivalencies are problematic but there is enough there to make it worth engaging. Just not through the gameplay. IMHO.

This always puzzles me. I think the gunplay was mediocre, but tying in both the powers and the rail mechanic made it pretty varied and fun. Enough to keep me entertained during the story, at least. The semi-hidden story of the twins and the considerations of choice trees and alternate realities I found fascinating. Sure, the race caricatures and themes of oppression, unabashed bigotry and greedy opportunism were uncomfortable to witness and play through, but I think that was precisely the point.

I don't know that I follow your remark about the violence of the protagonist running counter to his character development, though. Care to delve a little deeper there? I feel that at the end of the story, that final twist of realization was akin to the whole would-you-kindly-commit-murder-with-a-golf-club moment of the original BioShock. Peace was the goal, but peace wasn't to be arrived at by embracing peace. All of the violence leading up to that point was merely illustrating the point.

At least that's how I saw it.

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He says the violence is a negative, because he best way for a guy to atone for his violent past and massacre of native Americans is to run around murdering police officers brutally in Columbia.

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He says the violence is a negative, because he best way for a guy to atone for his violent past and massacre of native Americans is to run around murdering police officers brutally in Columbia.

No, the way to "atone" (I don't feel atonement was really possible) was to cease to be. Hence the permanent baptism. On its surface, that quest for redemption was an impossible task. The violence only cements that reality, and subsequent fate.

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He says the violence is a negative, because he best way for a guy to atone for his violent past and massacre of native Americans is to run around murdering police officers brutally in Columbia.

No, the way to "atone" (I don't feel atonement was really possible) was to cease to be. Hence the permanent baptism. On its surface, that quest for redemption was an impossible task. The violence only cements that reality, and subsequent fate.

~M

Cody is correct about my reasoning. Perhaps it's my worldview and convictions coming in here, but I don't think atoning for the crap we bring into this world is ever possible. I just don't think there are cosmic ledgers that operate that way (not saying that we shouldn't do good with our lives). However, I do believe people can own their crap, reflect on mistakes and do better. There are ways to interact in the world that can transform brokenness, but I don't think doing good things erases bad things in that sense of atonement. In his case, the continued violence led him to the point he could change the fates. It's been a while, but I don't think he could have gotten there without murdering a bunch of people. This rubs at my worldview.

Again, these are my own convictions and perhaps that got in the way of the artistic story you saw presented.

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He says the violence is a negative, because he best way for a guy to atone for his violent past and massacre of native Americans is to run around murdering police officers brutally in Columbia.

No, the way to "atone" (I don't feel atonement was really possible) was to cease to be. Hence the permanent baptism. On its surface, that quest for redemption was an impossible task. The violence only cements that reality, and subsequent fate.

~M

Cody is correct about my reasoning. Perhaps it's my worldview and convictions coming in here, but I don't think atoning for the crap we bring into this world is ever possible. I just don't think there are cosmic ledgers that operate that way (not saying that we shouldn't do good with our lives). However, I do believe people can own their crap, reflect on mistakes and do better. There are ways to interact in the world that can transform brokenness, but I don't think doing good things erases bad things in that sense of atonement. In his case, the continued violence led him to the point he could change the fates. It's been a while, but I don't think he could have gotten there without murdering a bunch of people. This rubs at my worldview.

Again, these are my own convictions and perhaps that got in the way of the artistic story you saw presented.

The game also revels in the violence. Heads explode when you electrocute dudes, and blood awesomely flies everywhere. It’s not the tone of a game where the main character is wresting with a violent past.

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He says the violence is a negative, because the best way for a guy to atone for his violent past and massacre of native Americans is to run around murdering police officers brutally in Columbia.

No, the way to "atone" (I don't feel atonement was really possible) was to cease to be. Hence the permanent baptism. On its surface, that quest for redemption was an impossible task. The violence only cements that reality, and subsequent fate.

~M

Perhaps it's my worldview and convictions coming in here, but I don't think atoning for the crap we bring into this world is ever possible. I just don't think there are cosmic ledgers that operate that way (not saying that we shouldn't do good with our lives). However, I do believe people can own their crap, reflect on mistakes and do better. There are ways to interact in the world that can transform brokenness, but I don't think doing good things erases bad things in that sense of atonement. In his case, the continued violence led him to the point he could change the fates. It's been a while, but I don't think he could have gotten there without murdering a bunch of people. This rubs at my worldview.

Again, these are my own convictions and perhaps that got in the way of the artistic story you saw presented.

Sure, our worldviews often color our interpretation of art. (This is why is hard/impossible to objectively say art is good or bad) What we should strive to do is view art through whatever worldview it's being presented in, and later reflect back on it through our own lenses.

Booker's main motivation (atonement) is not of his violent past, but his selling of Ana. Which means that while in Columbia, his violent means justify the end (in his world-view). Once all the pieces are in place:

Booker without baptism = Universe where start the game
Booker baptized = Universe where Booker becomes Comstock and builds Columbia

Booker's desire to undo the pain he caused his daughter, Elizabeth (at this point it's not made clear how he feels about his violent actions). He is atoning for both his sins as Booker and as Comstock by allowing himself to be killed at the baptism, rather than being born into either future version of his self.

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I didn't ever play the DLC so things may have gone deeper/different direction there. Also, multiverse stuff is complicated!

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BioShock Infinite feels so much deeper to me because of that, and I don't think that aspect got enough exposure with most of the audience that played it.

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But added a really interesting layer to the narrative.

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I didn't ever play the DLC so things may have gone deeper/different direction there. Also, multiverse stuff is complicated!

The DLC offered a huge, and stupid retcon for Daisy Fitzroy, which was clearly done to alleviate the criticisms of her character.

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Recons are only acceptable across different games. ;)

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I didn't ever play the DLC so things may have gone deeper/different direction there. Also, multiverse stuff is complicated!

The DLC offered a huge, and stupid retcon for Daisy Fitzroy, which was clearly done to alleviate the criticisms of her character.

That actually turned me off, in that the gray area the game originally explored had been one of its strengths as good art. Levine backtracked to the easy, morally unambiguous (and politically correct) line.

I thought the story and world-building in the original game were pretty amazing.

I've mentioned all this before, but I don't think I would have gotten as much out of it if ...

I hadn't obsessively watched Levine's interviews leading up to release.
I didn't know American history.
I wasn't familiar with Bolshevik history and iconography.
I had not played the original BioShock.
I had not read The Devil in the White City beforehand.
I didn't know a lot of the music (old and new) beforehand.
My favorite (great) grandmother did not play the piano and was not Elizabeth's age. :)

Needless to say, I found the game to be very rich.

Kerm

P.S. It's not that I didn't have other problems with the story. If I recall, in his universe, religion served only to justify oppression, whereas in actual American history abolitionists and civil rights advocates have often been motivated by their faith. Maybe there's some nod to that in the game, but I can no longer remember. I need to play it again. Or I need to pull out the long treatise I wrote but never posted for jillybean.

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No... not to any of the Bioshock stuff. To this:

Kerm

Kerm? KERM? That's like the name of an alien warlord or maybe a race of space zombies. No one should ever shorten their names to a four letter abbreviation. Ever.

-- Raga.

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No... not to any of the Bioshock stuff. To this:

Kerm

Kerm? KERM? That's like the name of an alien warlord or maybe a race of space zombies. No one should ever shorten their names to a four letter abbreviation. Ever.

-- Raga.

Hey, at least he doesn't run into any trademark disputes over it...

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P.S. It's not that I didn't have other problems with the story. If I recall, in his universe, religion served only to justify oppression, whereas in actual American history abolitionists and civil rights advocates have often been motivated by their faith.

Yeah. I mean, the civil rights struggles in the USA were mostly won through nonviolence. Yet here the Vox are bloodthirsty savages. Two sides of the same coin Irrational says! Uh no. That just makes your minorities bloodthirsty savages. That could work if the game explored the relationship between the oppressors and the oppressed vis a vis violence, but it didn't.

It's stupid and lazy.

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P.S. It's not that I didn't have other problems with the story. If I recall, in his universe, religion served only to justify oppression, whereas in actual American history abolitionists and civil rights advocates have often been motivated by their faith.

Yeah. I mean, the civil rights struggles in the USA were mostly won through nonviolence. Yet here the Vox are bloodthirsty savages. Two sides of the same coin Irrational says! Uh no. That just makes your minorities bloodthirsty savages. That could work if the game explored the relationship between the oppressors and the oppressed vis a vis violence, but it didn't.

It's stupid and lazy.

Completely disagree.

The plot threads surrounding Fitzroy, from her role as the only friend to Lady Comstock when that unfortunate woman was forced to live a lie by her Prophet, to her being framed for Lady Comstock’s murder, to her discovering the plight of her people (the ones not privileged enough to work in the homes of the rich), to finding she could be a rallying spark to free her people, to unfortunately becoming obsessed with revenge and revolution through violence.

Hers was a complex, heartening, tragic, and dangerous tale that was smartly told across the entire game. And the messages were clear. People in Fitzroy’s position could be comforting friend and also, with the wrong push, could be murderous leaders.

Lazy and stupid, it was not.

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P.S. It's not that I didn't have other problems with the story. If I recall, in his universe, religion served only to justify oppression, whereas in actual American history abolitionists and civil rights advocates have often been motivated by their faith.

Yeah. I mean, the civil rights struggles in the USA were mostly won through nonviolence. Yet here the Vox are bloodthirsty savages. Two sides of the same coin Irrational says! Uh no. That just makes your minorities bloodthirsty savages. That could work if the game explored the relationship between the oppressors and the oppressed vis a vis violence, but it didn't.

Note that when I mention abolitionists and civil rights advocates, I'm not just talking about those who were minorities. I certainly believe that the success of the 1960s civil rights movement owes a great debt to MLK's religious appeal to a mostly religious country. Successful non-violent revolutions depend on those with power having a conscience. I have to ask, based on your post, what is the other side of the non-violent revolution coin? I'm really having trouble parsing this sentence: "That just makes your minorities bloodthirsty savages." I don't know what "that" or "your minorities" refers to. The Vox uprising in the game is an amalgam--there are obvious similarities to Nat Turner's rebellion and to the Boshevik revolution, both of which were pretty freaking bloody.

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Note that when I mention abolitionists and civil rights advocates, I'm not just talking about those who were minorities. I certainly believe that the success of the 1960s civil rights movement owes a great debt to MLK's religious appeal to a mostly religious country. Successful non-violent revolutions depend on those with power having a conscience. I have to ask, based on your post, what is the other side of the non-violent revolution coin? I'm really having trouble parsing this sentence: "That just makes your minorities bloodthirsty savages." I don't know what "that" or "your minorities" refers to. The Vox uprising in the game is an amalgam--there are obvious similarities to Nat Turner's rebellion and to the Boshevik revolution, both of which were pretty freaking bloody.

The Vox and Founders do not have a master slave relationship, so Nat Turner is irrelevant. It completely parallels the situation of blacks in the USA in the mid century, so Boshevik is irrelevant. I mean dude, the game is drenched with historical Americana and notions of white superiority.

But it ignores the reality of how the civil rights movement in America was actually won. The way the Vox behaved… perhaps the founders were right to oppress them. That's what's uncomfortable. The game cops out by saying both sides are equally bad. That's a chickenshit way to make a game that aspires to great ideas.

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Note that when I mention abolitionists and civil rights advocates, I'm not just talking about those who were minorities. I certainly believe that the success of the 1960s civil rights movement owes a great debt to MLK's religious appeal to a mostly religious country. Successful non-violent revolutions depend on those with power having a conscience. I have to ask, based on your post, what is the other side of the non-violent revolution coin? I'm really having trouble parsing this sentence: "That just makes your minorities bloodthirsty savages." I don't know what "that" or "your minorities" refers to. The Vox uprising in the game is an amalgam--there are obvious similarities to Nat Turner's rebellion and to the Boshevik revolution, both of which were pretty freaking bloody.

The Vox and Founders do not have a master slave relationship, so Nat Turner is irrelevant. It completely parallels the situation of blacks in the USA in the mid century, so Boshevik is irrelevant. I mean dude, the game is drenched with historical Americana and notions of white superiority.

Sure. Columbia is the worst of America in relief, and maybe Levine's gutsiest move was not adhering to today's identity politics construction of history. Racism is not the sole domain of the powerful. Violence is not either. Both are contagions orviruses, and both live on generation after generation.

But it ignores the reality of how the civil rights movement in America was actually won. The way the Vox behaved… perhaps the founders were right to oppress them. That's what's uncomfortable. The game cops out by saying both sides are equally bad. That's a chickenshit way to make a game that aspires to great ideas.

It ignores all kinds of reality. It's a city floating in the fricking sky. I sense that you want it to have a certain message, and I say it's better and more interesting piece of art because it does make us uncomfortable, and it doesn't provide a didactic message, except maybe that history presents us with certain patterns, and those patterns tend to repeat. Maybe recognizing those patterns helps us understand with compassion how we got here, and not be so self-righteous that we're better than all who came before. Of course the game is also about gaming, and the limits to our agency in that activity. There's a lot to unpack--it's a shaggy monster of a game that has its flaws, but I'm very glad it exists.

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It ignores all kinds of reality. It's a city floating in the fricking sky. I sense that you want it to have a certain message, and I say it's better and more interesting piece of art because it does make us uncomfortable, and it doesn't provide a didactic message, except maybe that history presents us with certain patterns, and those patterns tend to repeat.

Right. How do you make a game about murder, guilt, racism, etc without a didactic message?! It's using serious themes to appear serious, while ultimately espousing a completely juvenile philosophy. That's why I dislike it.

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It ignores all kinds of reality. It's a city floating in the fricking sky. I sense that you want it to have a certain message, and I say it's better and more interesting piece of art because it does make us uncomfortable, and it doesn't provide a didactic message, except maybe that history presents us with certain patterns, and those patterns tend to repeat.

Right. How do you make a game about murder, guilt, racism, etc without a didactic message?! It's using serious themes to appear serious, while ultimately espousing a completely juvenile philosophy. That's why I dislike it.

I completely disagree. I can't help but suspect that the message you want it have is the simplistic juvenile one. Art isn't propaganda--that's why it doesn't have a didactic message. Art can have a greater impact than any explicit message could, though, because experiencing art mimics experiencing life. The game doesn't have to announce that segregation is bad. Regardless, that wouldn't have the impact as does noticing, for example, that different bathrooms are available to different groups. BioShock Infinite is a game that rewards knowledge of history from multiple perspectives, not just Howard Zinn's perspective. As I've stated, I've got my issues with the game and problems with the way it presents certain ideas, but I'll defend it against the juvenile charge any day of the week.

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It ignores all kinds of reality. It's a city floating in the fricking sky. I sense that you want it to have a certain message, and I say it's better and more interesting piece of art because it does make us uncomfortable, and it doesn't provide a didactic message, except maybe that history presents us with certain patterns, and those patterns tend to repeat.

Right. How do you make a game about murder, guilt, racism, etc without a didactic message?! It's using serious themes to appear serious, while ultimately espousing a completely juvenile philosophy. That's why I dislike it.

I completely disagree. I can't help but suspect that the message you want it have is the simplistic juvenile one. Art isn't propaganda--that's why it doesn't have a didactic message. Art can have a greater impact than any explicit message could, though, because experiencing art mimics experiencing life. The game doesn't have to announce that segregation is bad. Regardless, that wouldn't have the impact as does noticing, for example, that different bathrooms are available to different groups. BioShock Infinite is a game that rewards knowledge of history from multiple perspectives, not just Howard Zinn's perspective. As I've stated, I've got my issues with the game and problems with the way it presents certain ideas, but I'll defend it against the juvenile charge any day of the week.

If all it does is imitate life, it's not very good art is it? Art adds understanding. And that means making bold statements about how you perceive things to be, or how they should be.

What understanding does Bioshock Infinite add to any of the themes it imports?

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It ignores all kinds of reality. It's a city floating in the fricking sky. I sense that you want it to have a certain message, and I say it's better and more interesting piece of art because it does make us uncomfortable, and it doesn't provide a didactic message, except maybe that history presents us with certain patterns, and those patterns tend to repeat.

Right. How do you make a game about murder, guilt, racism, etc without a didactic message?! It's using serious themes to appear serious, while ultimately espousing a completely juvenile philosophy. That's why I dislike it.

I completely disagree. I can't help but suspect that the message you want it have is the simplistic juvenile one. Art isn't propaganda--that's why it doesn't have a didactic message. Art can have a greater impact than any explicit message could, though, because experiencing art mimics experiencing life. The game doesn't have to announce that segregation is bad. Regardless, that wouldn't have the impact as does noticing, for example, that different bathrooms are available to different groups. BioShock Infinite is a game that rewards knowledge of history from multiple perspectives, not just Howard Zinn's perspective. As I've stated, I've got my issues with the game and problems with the way it presents certain ideas, but I'll defend it against the juvenile charge any day of the week.

If all it does is imitate life, it's not very good art is it? Art adds understanding. And that means making bold statements about how you perceive things to be, or how they should be.

I never said that's all it does. If we can all agree on what the message of a piece of art is, it's not very good art. Art imparts understanding by making think about the world in new ways, but the bold statement is up for interpretation.

What understanding does Bioshock Infinite add to any of the themes it imports?

I've already stated some thoughts on this, when I said what I said about how the game explores the dynamics of racism and violence in history. To me this is bold in that it goes against what is popular currently. We're reverting back to racism and essentialism. Identity politics basically is a way a justifying bigotry behind the mask of fighting bigotry. I'll stop now because I don't think this is the place for this.

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Agreed. I think it’s fair to look at it maybe as not delivering a firm one sided message, and maybe even more fair to say that it was delivering several messages, all jumbled up in an interesting and complex fashion.

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Sure, our worldviews often color our interpretation of art. (This is why is hard/impossible to objectively say art is good or bad) What we should strive to do is view art through whatever worldview it's being presented in, and later reflect back on it through our own lenses.

Oh I totally get the need to enter the moral world of the media presented. It's my post-play reflection that led me to call BS on it.

I think part of the problem lies in the genre (FPS video game) they're telling the story. You see, Booker has motivations ascribed by the game designers and world builders, but there's an element of him and his motivations that get filled in by the player (in this case me). Some games give more motivational control to the players than others, but I still felt like there was a part of me choosing to react to the world as Booker at play. He wasn't carte blanche, but they left it open enough for me to feel engaged as a protagonist. As Booker, I wanted to do more than just deal with the pain I caused Elizabeth. My daughter even helps me become better (when she's not helping me murder people). It just feels like that bit of development gets totally subverted the next time someone's head explodes. Again, perhaps that's the point but the genre of the delivery of the story felt (to me) like it allowed me to interpret Booker as something at odds with the gameplay.

Red Dead Redemption handles the themes this game was getting at better IMO- cyclical nature of violence and the futility of shooting your way to redemption. It just didn't have the cool alternate paths in the universe element in it. That was a real cool hook for me and the clever story path made me enjoy the game. Outside the videogame genre, it wouldn't be too hard to have selective violence or even an absence of it and still have Booker come to the same conclusion that he needed to erase himself from the universe. Like Cody points out, the game kind of revels in the violence.

I should add that I loved the art/music of the game. The haunting opening of the game with the relevant hymn/spiritual is beautiful. There are so many ways it succeeds and perhaps that's why I'm so hard on it.

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Sure, our worldviews often color our interpretation of art. (This is why is hard/impossible to objectively say art is good or bad) What we should strive to do is view art through whatever worldview it's being presented in, and later reflect back on it through our own lenses.

Oh I totally get the need to enter the moral world of the media presented. It's my post-play reflection that led me to call BS on it.

I think part of the problem lies in the genre (FPS video game) they're telling the story. You see, Booker has motivations ascribed by the game designers and world builders, but there's an element of him and his motivations that get filled in by the player (in this case me). Some games give more motivational control to the players than others, but I still felt like there was a part of me choosing to react to the world as Booker at play. He wasn't carte blanche, but they left it open enough for me to feel engaged as a protagonist. As Booker, I wanted to do more than just deal with the pain I caused Elizabeth. My daughter even helps me become better (when she's not helping me murder people). It just feels like that bit of development gets totally subverted the next time someone's head explodes. Again, perhaps that's the point but the genre of the delivery of the story felt (to me) like it allowed me to interpret Booker as something at odds with the gameplay.

Red Dead Redemption handles the themes this game was getting at better IMO- cyclical nature of violence and the futility of shooting your way to redemption. It just didn't have the cool alternate paths in the universe element in it. That was a real cool hook for me and the clever story path made me enjoy the game. Outside the videogame genre, it wouldn't be too hard to have selective violence or even an absence of it and still have Booker come to the same conclusion that he needed to erase himself from the universe. Like Cody points out, the game kind of revels in it.

I should add that I loved the art/music of the game. The haunting opening of the game with the relevant hymn/spiritual is beautiful. There are so many ways it succeeds and perhaps that's why I'm so hard on it.

I agree with a lot of this, I just see Booker/Comstock as problematic overall by his very nature, and by design. Comstock is obviously beyond redemption from the get-go, and the glee in wanton violence (on my/our part) of Booker puts the nails in his coffin by the end. Violence is the opposite thing to do when righting wrongs, but I see the war crimes committed prior to the story as decisions that created Booker, and we simply join him on his path at a place where he's still beyond redemption, regardless our actions.

It's very much the same way I felt in the first BioShock. You think you have this choice all the way through, but by the climax of the plot, it's clear you don't. You're a product of the circumstances and choices made prior to your control of the situation.

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Totally fair analysis and I appreciate your post!

This is where my worldview rubs it. Part of me was Booker and I didn't enjoy being along for that ride. There are more things determined in our lives than we often think. Social circumstances, ecological systems, habits of behavior, our own previous life choices (like war-crimes) all constrict or open-up certain outcomes and behaviors. Our free will, while I believe it exists, is much more limited than popular rhetoric espouses. However, I don't want to believe that anyone is beyond choosing an alternate path at any given point. Again, this is me. I want to believe that we have to deal with the past, but we aren't fully determined by it. Overly-deterministic paths in games rub up against this because I confuse the choices I hope to make with the ones the characters are set out to make. Literature doesn't suffer this disconnect for me because I'm not the character. Eh, this could go on for a while. In any case, I appreciated what the game was going for, but I felt like the story could have been told better in a different genre/medium. Good conversation though!

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I think part of the problem lies in the genre (FPS video game) they're telling the story.

Yep. It is a huge challenge. One that some (Bungie for example) just discard and use a void-character (a decision which I dislike BTW).

You see, Booker has motivations ascribed by the game designers and world builders, but there's an element of him and his motivations that get filled in by the player (in this case me). Some games give more motivational control to the players than others, but I still felt like there was a part of me choosing to react to the world as Booker at play. He wasn't carte blanche, but they left it open enough for me to feel engaged as a protagonist. As Booker, I wanted to do more than just deal with the pain I caused Elizabeth. My daughter even helps me become better (when she's not helping me murder people). It just feels like that bit of development gets totally subverted the next time someone's head explodes. Again, perhaps that's the point but the genre of the delivery of the story felt (to me) like it allowed me to interpret Booker as something at odds with the gameplay.

The balancing act of gameplay and story. I would probably agree that the violence was "over the top," but if it's not "fun" they run the risk of it not being popular. And this was a Triple-A title, so it needed to sell. Maybe they could have done a better job with this.

Red Dead Redemption handles the themes this game was getting at better IMO- cyclical nature of violence and the futility of shooting your way to redemption. It just didn't have the cool alternate paths in the universe element in it. That was a really cool hook for me and the clever story path made me enjoy the game. Outside the video game genre, it wouldn't be too hard to have selective violence or even an absence of it and still have Booker come to the same conclusion that he needed to erase himself from the universe. Like Cody points out, the game kind of revels in the violence.

This is why I love Dishonored so much. It gives you the choice. That system in place for this game could have had some interesting implications. Maybe you could have had an ending where you were able to survive with your daughter.

I also think the game has something interesting to say about redemptive violence. We can't forget, even the baptized Booker becomes something terrible as Comstock. I don't think that's lost on Booker when he figures out who Comstock is.

I should add that I loved the art/music of the game. The haunting opening of the game with the relevant hymn/spiritual is beautiful. There are so many ways it succeeds and perhaps that's why I'm so hard on it.

It's definitely not a perfect game, and I think your critiques have been fair. :)

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Good post.

This is why I love Dishonored so much. It gives you the choice. That system in place for this game could have had some interesting implications. Maybe you could have had an ending where you were able to survive with your daughter.

I need to play this game. I keep hearing about how good it it. That being said (back to Infinite), I'm comfortable with the firm non-choice ending. That wasn't ever my problem. Maybe a better way of putting it is that the Booker who shot all those people on the way to dealing with his own story doesn't feel like the guy who also erases himself for the good of the universe. It feels like another Booker from another path probably made that choice, but not the guy I played.

I also think the game has something interesting to say about redemptive violence. We can't forget, even the baptized Booker becomes something terrible as Comstock. I don't think that's lost on Booker when he figures out who Comstock is.

Good point.

I should add that I loved the art/music of the game. The haunting opening of the game with the relevant hymn/spiritual is beautiful. There are so many ways it succeeds and perhaps that's why I'm so hard on it.

It's definitely not a perfect game, and I think your critiques have been fair. :)

Likewise!

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A high quality, civil discussion means I get to use a gif! Yay!

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Cause the more I drink the more I like to cuddle! ;)

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Cause the more I drink the more I like to cuddle! ;)

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This thread has gone so many different places. I'm not really complaining though.

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I've gotten used to the fact that I'm an unintentional black hole. XD

Did I ever tell you about the time I accidentally almost broke TrueAchievements a year ago?

Sit on my lap, son—and I'll tell you a story...

But honestly, back on topic—I did post a little hastily, but I felt so surprised that TA had such a near-perfect review of D2. I wasn't surprised by Yahtzee of course, his quips and gripes are what make the show—but I was surprised that he complimented the design(though, at its most basic level). And when he said that staring at the wall in awe of the design was more exciting than playing the game, that obviously was a less than near-perfect review. My general opinion of D2 as a whole is average/slightly above average, so basically in the middle. Most of the opinions I've seen on varying sites over D2 range from nods of appreciation to shrugs of indifference, to pure hatred. It just intrigued me to see this shining beacon of what seems like adoration!

Now I don't remember who said it anymore, the reply got lost in that soup of crazy up there--but they were right, people can have opposite opinions, and they have the right to do so, as well.

I have my own "review" of Destiny 2/Beta on Word somewhere, and I nibble on it from time to time. I'll try and get that up soon, but it'll also be a wild mess.

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I want to do a deep dive on this later when I have time. Beware. Bewarned. Bewaiting. I shall return.

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I'm really not out to point fingers at anyone in particular, just to the trend in general. Or the appearance of the trend, anyways.

Which is being dickish. Not just disagreeing with people, doing so a lot, or whatever. It's the personal sniping that's getting me. Not everything that's directed personally, but the stuff that's an attack, on a person and not their ideas.

I don't personally think Raga's post that this all branched from was an example of that; it seemed more like frustration with Cody's ideas than anything. But that's just me, I'm not like, an arbiter of all this.

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Like I've said before, I love y'all, but trying to outdick the next guy with personal attacks makes me want to leave the board. I think there's enough blame to go around, but please take some ownership of your part in creating an atmosphere where people want to hang out. As Raichu says, disagreements are great, but personal attacks and vendettas should be below us. I'm not a mod, obviously, but I do care about this place and I'm saddened by this trend.

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It's not that hard on this particular forum, which feels more like hanging out with friends than anything else.

But it can be hard elsewhere. I struggle every day not to be a dickhead to people on reddit, and I only succeed slightly more than I fail. It is hard to ignore the trolls and to not fight fire with fire.

While we're obviously much more connected than the users of the shitshow that is reddit, sometimes its hard to turn of the mentality that the rest of the internet teaches you to have.

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It's not that hard on this particular forum, which feels more like hanging out with friends than anything else.

But it can be hard elsewhere. I struggle every day not to be a dickhead to people on reddit, and I only succeed slightly more than I fail. It is hard to ignore the trolls and to not fight fire with fire.

While we're obviously much more connected than the users of the shitshow that is reddit, sometimes its hard to turn of the mentality that the rest of the internet teaches you to have.

I highly recommend r/crucibleplaybook for a strong reddit community that is full of helpful posts with (seriously) no salt added. Sure, the focus is on pvp, but it's well moderated, always on topic, and really full of great folks. r/destinythegame is a cesspool that has about as much moderation as r/all, which is to say that it seems like there's no moderation going on whatsoever.

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Like I've said before, I love y'all, but trying to outdick the next guy with personal attacks makes me want to leave the board. I think there's enough blame to go around, but please take some ownership of your part in creating an atmosphere where people want to hang out. As Raichu says, disagreements are great, but personal attacks and vendettas should be below us. I'm not a mod, obviously, but I do care about this place and I'm saddened by this trend.

Reading through Raga's cache of evidence for his non-specific "bashing" of folks (quotes because it's not that serious, people) and coming across Mig's grand farewell post not only brought back some tough memories, but also made the point itself. He says it there.

Certain individuals, and Cody in particular, have contributed to the funk in here in a major way. Some accountability is more than called for.

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Like I've said before, I love y'all, but trying to outdick the next guy with personal attacks makes me want to leave the board. I think there's enough blame to go around, but please take some ownership of your part in creating an atmosphere where people want to hang out. As Raichu says, disagreements are great, but personal attacks and vendettas should be below us. I'm not a mod, obviously, but I do care about this place and I'm saddened by this trend.

Reading through Raga's cache of evidence for his non-specific "bashing" of folks (quotes because it's not that serious, people) and coming across Mig's grand farewell post not only brought back some tough memories, but also made the point itself. He says it there.

Certain individuals, and Cody in particular, have contributed to the funk in here in a major way. Some accountability is more than called for.

~M

OMG. That thread you linked to was one for the ages, and not in a completely good way.

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OMG. That thread you linked to was one for the ages, and not in a completely good way.

No. Not in a good way at all.

There's a lot of drama and ugliness that fades completely for me over time. Likewise the nuance and richness of some interactions. Maybe it's a shortcoming of my own mind. Sometimes it's a blessing.

I encourage everyone to go back and read what Miguel said and just think about it. I think we'd do well around here to take it to heart. We've got a lot of good people, and comparatively little BS, by orders of magnitude, compared to other better-traveled places on the web. Let's keep it that way.

I don't know about anyone else here, but it's painful to me to see people I care about and respect going at it, and worse than the pointlessness of the squabble, lacking the will to be introspective and admit fault. Mig was right.

Pay attention.

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Ironic you talk about respect, linking to a post where Miguel says my thinking is so backwards it’s not even worth acknowledging.

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Ironic you talk about respect, linking to a post where Miguel says my thinking is so backwards it’s not even worth acknowledging.

Indeed.

And you proved immediately you didn't listen to him then, and you're not listening to him now. Nor are you listening to me.

I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I tell you.

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Ironic you talk about respect, linking to a post where Miguel says my thinking is so backwards it’s not even worth acknowledging.

Indeed.

And you proved immediately you didn't listen to him then, and you're not listening to him now. Nor are you listening to me.

I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I tell you.

~M

You know how much I love ya Mal, and Mig too. Truly. But that thread, IMHO, is not a good example to point to if you want to draw attention to Mig's wisdom or insights.

I want to stress the fact that I'm not saying that Mig didn't make any valid points in that thread. Because he absolutely did. But after re-reading that entire thread a couple days ago, I feel now the way i felt then. Mig conducted himself atrociously in that thread. Some of those who know him well were quick to try to extract the valid points that Mig was making, while filtering out the vitriol. Kermit and Claude in particular made several wonderful, thoughtful, insightful posts. And they did so clearly, elegantly, and respectfully. But as I pointed out then, I do believe that there was a bit of a "turning a blind eye" going on with regards to the combative and condescending nature of Mig's words. By which I mean, if just about anyone else had made a post like that, the rest of DBO would have swung against it even harder than many here reacted. And for those of us who were posting regularly back then, there is also the memory that the forum had actually been overall quite chipper and friendly for at least a few weeks there, with the exception of 1 other thread that spiraled out of control due to another insulting and condescending post from Mig.

Again, I say all of this as someone who has nothing but love and respect for you, as well as Mig. And I really don't want to drag all that stuff back out into another shit-show. I once joked with Claude that DBO is a bit like an old married couple, with long memories and lots of unsettled arguments that go deep :) And I'm not discounting or contradicting the point you are making to Cody. I just think that of all the ways that certain problems around here could be addressed, that particular series of posts from Mig was possibly the worst conceivable way to try and solve things. <3

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Agreed.

A careful, "clean room" reading of that thread where you leave emotion at the door will find some good points on both sides. But, also agreed, I think redebating all that is very dangerous. It happened, but it didn't happen well, and some of the things said were very much not good... and lets all leave it at that.

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So this was a whole thing that went down when I wasn't around, because of life stuff. I didn't really know Mig at all, from when I was there before that, either. So I'm missing a lot of context, and try to keep that in mind for the thing, but...

Well, trying to read that thread with the perspective of an outsider, I honestly can't. I'm not really going to bother saying more, but, yeah.

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Ironic you talk about respect, linking to a post where Miguel says my thinking is so backwards it’s not even worth acknowledging.

Indeed.

And you proved immediately you didn't listen to him then, and you're not listening to him now. Nor are you listening to me.

I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I tell you.

~M

You know how much I love ya Mal, and Mig too. Truly. But that thread, IMHO, is not a good example to point to if you want to draw attention to Mig's wisdom or insights.

I want to stress the fact that I'm not saying that Mig didn't make any valid points in that thread. Because he absolutely did. But after re-reading that entire thread a couple days ago, I feel now the way i felt then. Mig conducted himself atrociously in that thread. Some of those who know him well were quick to try to extract the valid points that Mig was making, while filtering out the vitriol. Kermit and Claude in particular made several wonderful, thoughtful, insightful posts. And they did so clearly, elegantly, and respectfully. But as I pointed out then, I do believe that there was a bit of a "turning a blind eye" going on with regards to the combative and condescending nature of Mig's words. By which I mean, if just about anyone else had made a post like that, the rest of DBO would have swung against it even harder than many here reacted. And for those of us who were posting regularly back then, there is also the memory that the forum had actually been overall quite chipper and friendly for at least a few weeks there, with the exception of 1 other thread that spiraled out of control due to another insulting and condescending post from Mig.

Again, I say all of this as someone who has nothing but love and respect for you, as well as Mig. And I really don't want to drag all that stuff back out into another shit-show. I once joked with Claude that DBO is a bit like an old married couple, with long memories and lots of unsettled arguments that go deep :) And I'm not discounting or contradicting the point you are making to Cody. I just think that of all the ways that certain problems around here could be addressed, that particular series of posts from Mig was possibly the worst conceivable way to try and solve things. <3

I won't rehash this, but my impression then and now is that Mig misjudged his audience and misjudged you (and I think he very quickly realized this). Mig has been a giant on BO sites, and helped build this place we all benefit from, but he wasn't as active as you on DBO, he hadn't played with people here like you had, etc. Your persona was well known among many, his less so at that particular juncture. His outsized inimitable rhetoric generated an outsized (negative) response.

The only thing I'll add is that D1 had obvious problems, so it made it easier to indulge in the kind of talk that bothered Mig (and me, honestly). It's been better around here since D2, but I still see what he was talking about. I go anywhere else, though, and it's 10x worse, as Durandal recently pointed out.

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I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I tell you.

~M

You know how much I love ya Mal, and Mig too. Truly. But that thread, IMHO, is not a good example to point to if you want to draw attention to Mig's wisdom or insights.

I completely agree. But I point specifically to that post by Mig because it mirrors my own feelings about a number of things around here; and it shows that even someone as patient, dedicated, big-hearted and open-minded as Mig can be worn down to a point that they'd rather leave than deal with it any longer. I think we'd do well to remember the factors that led him to that point, and any parties involved ought to consider their own part in it.

I want to stress the fact that I'm not saying that Mig didn't make any valid points in that thread. Because he absolutely did. But after re-reading that entire thread a couple days ago, I feel now the way i felt then. Mig conducted himself atrociously in that thread. Some of those who know him well were quick to try to extract the valid points that Mig was making, while filtering out the vitriol. Kermit and Claude in particular made several wonderful, thoughtful, insightful posts. And they did so clearly, elegantly, and respectfully. But as I pointed out then, I do believe that there was a bit of a "turning a blind eye" going on with regards to the combative and condescending nature of Mig's words. By which I mean, if just about anyone else had made a post like that, the rest of DBO would have swung against it even harder than many here reacted. And for those of us who were posting regularly back then, there is also the memory that the forum had actually been overall quite chipper and friendly for at least a few weeks there, with the exception of 1 other thread that spiraled out of control due to another insulting and condescending post from Mig.

Again, I don't disagree where you come out on this. But it was a long time coming for him. And he even pointed out that he realized he was burning up the last of what goodwill he had earned here in writing that post and flipping the table, as it were. I still think he was way more justified than not.

Again, I say all of this as someone who has nothing but love and respect for you, as well as Mig. And I really don't want to drag all that stuff back out into another shit-show. I once joked with Claude that DBO is a bit like an old married couple, with long memories and lots of unsettled arguments that go deep :) And I'm not discounting or contradicting the point you are making to Cody. I just think that of all the ways that certain problems around here could be addressed, that particular series of posts from Mig was possibly the worst conceivable way to try and solve things. <3

I appreciate your words, and I take zero offense to anything you've said here. I got nothing but love for you, man. I appreciate that we have differing views, and I feel the same way about dredging up old squabbles.

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Ironic you talk about respect, linking to a post where Miguel says my thinking is so backwards it’s not even worth acknowledging.

Indeed.

And you proved immediately you didn't listen to him then, and you're not listening to him now. Nor are you listening to me.

I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I tell you.

~M

Why would I listen to this?

It's why my posts in the past year to him rarely actually engaged with anything he posited - By acknowledging such backwards thinking was, even if in disagreement, giving him validation. I refused to do that. I won't talk to a flat-earther - there's no point.

He's openly saying because he doesn't share my views, I'm not worthy of consideration. That's… well that's a lack of respect. Even worse comparing my views to that of a conspiracy theorist, when they are nowhere near as damaging or intellectually dishonest. It doesn't bother me that he says this, or that he doesn't give me respect, because I can defend myself well enough, but I will never ever dismiss someone here simply because their viewpoint is different. I even try to understand opposing viewpoints!

His attitude is actually counter towards progress. You can't change the minds of 9/11 truthers, mysoginists, or racists etc if you brush them off as beneath you. They are human beings who believe what they believe for a reason. Understanding that reason and seeing them as a someone that deserves dignity because of their personhood is a much easier way to go.

I feel like I'm doing a better job on the forums now than I did many years ago. That had to do with people actually talking to me openly in a 'real' way; not because of Mig brushing me off.

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Ironic you talk about respect, linking to a post where Miguel says my thinking is so backwards it’s not even worth acknowledging.

Indeed.

And you proved immediately you didn't listen to him then, and you're not listening to him now. Nor are you listening to me.

I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I tell you.

~M

Why would I listen to this?

It's why my posts in the past year to him rarely actually engaged with anything he posited - By acknowledging such backwards thinking was, even if in disagreement, giving him validation. I refused to do that. I won't talk to a flat-earther - there's no point.

He's openly saying because he doesn't share my views, I'm not worthy of consideration. That's… well that's a lack of respect. Even worse comparing my views to that of a conspiracy theorist, when they are nowhere near as damaging or intellectually dishonest. It doesn't bother me that he says this, or that he doesn't give me respect, because I can defend myself well enough, but I will never ever dismiss someone here simply because their viewpoint is different. I even try to understand opposing viewpoints!

His attitude is actually counter towards progress. You can't change the minds of 9/11 truthers, mysoginists, or racists etc if you brush them off as beneath you. They are human beings who believe what they believe for a reason. Understanding that reason and seeing them as a someone that deserves dignity because of their personhood is a much easier way to go.

I feel like I'm doing a better job on the forums now than I did many years ago. That had to do with people actually talking to me openly in a 'real' way; not because of Mig brushing me off.

For the record, I think you're better, too. :)

To compensate I've gotten worse. ;)

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but I will never ever dismiss someone here simply because their viewpoint is different. I even try to understand opposing viewpoints!

Except, you are known for the phrase "objectively bad" and phrasing opinions as facts... especially in regards to investment systems. What does that say to people who disagree with you? Where is the respect for them there?

Yeah, Mig stated his attitude far more blatantly than you do, but I think your actions and occasional unwillingness to concede a point are, at times, not too far off. And that I think, ultimately, is the reason for most of the flack you do get.

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Why would I listen to this?

It's why my posts in the past year to him rarely actually engaged with anything he posited - By acknowledging such backwards thinking was, even if in disagreement, giving him validation. I refused to do that. I won't talk to a flat-earther - there's no point.

He's openly saying because he doesn't share my views, I'm not worthy of consideration.

I totally wanted to let sleeping dogs lie... but this isn't worthy of you.

That's not what he was saying, even a little bit. He was specifically talking about your internet persona, which he (and you) had acknowledged was different than your real-life persona. He was saying that your attitude was so toxic that he refused to engage - that's not saying anything REMOTELY like "he doesn't share my views, so he's not worthy of consideration." He believed that you were hurting the forum, hurting our little community, with your choice to be confrontational. (I'm pretty sure he didn't even give a shit about what you were talking about. It was how you chose to interact that he was fighting against. And It's something that *I've* fought against, too - both publicly and privately, with you. The difference is, when you brushed off MY concerns, I didn't walk away. Mig did.)

I also agree you've gotten better. I still miss his input on this forum. :(

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I also agree you've gotten better. I still miss his input on this forum. :(

Me, too.

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That's not what he was saying, even a little bit. He was specifically talking about your internet persona, which he (and you) had acknowledged was different than your real-life persona. He was saying that your attitude was so toxic that he refused to engage - that's not saying anything REMOTELY like "he doesn't share my views, so he's not worthy of consideration." He believed that you were hurting the forum, hurting our little community, with your choice to be confrontational. (I'm pretty sure he didn't even give a shit about what you were talking about. It was how you chose to interact that he was fighting against. And It's something that *I've* fought against, too - both publicly and privately, with you. The difference is, when you brushed off MY concerns, I didn't walk away. Mig did.)

This. Right here, is the point. Cody, the biggest problem I have with the way you conduct yourself here (and even within this thread I see that there are others that feel similarly) is that it seems impossible to get you to be introspective. There's no question that you're capable, it's that you don't seem willing. You make great posts plenty of the time. There are excellent points you make bolstered by evidence within and outside of the gaming industry; you can be downright eloquent in your arguments. I typically don't find myself agreeing with you on much, but when I do, I agree all the way.

Mig's post held some seriously important nuance wrapped in a bunch of rancor. Personally I feel it was largely warranted, but my feelings aren't the thing that matters here. You're well-equipped to consider his viewpoint and pick out the stuff that really matters. But sometimes it seems almost deliberate how you miss the point.

I don't think anyone here would argue you aren't a major contributor in either quality content or opinion. You're a valuable member of the community.

I just don't think you listen to yourself.

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My post wasn't directed at you (or Ragashingo). CheapLEY is a big damn hero and addresses the only critique I had of Raga.

Others, well, they may be implicated.

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OMG. That thread you linked to was one for the ages, and not in a completely good way.

No. Not in a good way at all.

It wasn't completely bad, but I do remember feeling like I was witnessing my parents' break-up.

Decidedly not good.

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That one makes me particularly mad, especially in the context of this sub thread about my actions. Here and other times I've been accused of focusing only on Cody or whatever, yet every time I post in opposition to Cody I keep Mig's words about him in mind...

It's why my posts in the past year to him rarely actually engaged with anything he posited - By acknowledging such backwards thinking was, even if in disagreement, giving him validation. I refused to do that. I won't talk to a flat-earther - there's no point.

...and I make sure as hell that I'm not on that path. Have I occasionally trolled Cody or a few others? Yeah. But I never, ever, want to get to the point that I conclude that Cody (or anyone else!) should only be trolled. Maybe a thread or two in the past has descended into sniping but I've tried to be sure to always have or at least start with a real a real point and honest complaint.

I've probably said here on the forums, but I know I recently said it privately to someone, that I am as hard on Cody as I am because I know he is intelligent... and does sometimes get things right... and is worth talking to.

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That one makes me particularly mad, especially in the context of this sub thread about my actions.

I posted it elsewhere, but I didn't really start this subthread about you. I hope you understand that. I saw a couple places where you may have extended Cody a bit more grace, but the responses to you by drive-by lurkers were more troubling.

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I'm no lurker. I've just learned a lot better than Cody or Raga have regarding past mistakes or offenses and hold my internet tongue far far more than I used to, even with constructive and positive posts because this place can get pretty toxic even to good things. Doesn't mean that every now and then I won't say a thing, like in this thread (whether you agree with it or not and whether Ragashingo wants to play more innocent than he is or not). Also, not implying in the slightest that I haven't been guilty of any sort of toxicity or rabble rousing. No false illusions here.

Still working on my post on my actual Destiny 2 thoughts though! Have had bunches of replies literally typed out in agreement and disagreement with good and bad things others have said, but decided not to post numerous times to avoid lots of the troubles. But hey, when it's my own thread, I'll welcome it all. Or if no one or hardly anyone replies, word. Either way, gonna get them thoughts out soon! But this thread sure has been... something. Decided to interject. Ohhhh well.

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I really enjoyed your contributions on HBO and early Destiny.

Regarding this thread, I'll give some honest feedback since you responded. You didn't used to be a lurker, but in my observation your posts are now few and far between- with one exception. You come out and (ironically?) do the exact same thing to Raga that you accuse him of doing. And it isn't just an isolated instance. The only difference is that you don't have any content to contribute in these posts and your goal appears to solely lie in bringing someone down. That's being a dick. Who does that help? That's the kind of thing I'd hope we were above here and I'm sad that that exists as part of this place. Snark is great, but doing it just to hurt someone sucks.

It's not just you though. I think familiarity can breed contempt and there has been a rise in the number of posts that seem to be aimed at scoring points in a longstanding feud rather than engaging with ideas. Perhaps I'm overreacting and maybe I'm the only one this bothers. In that case, I'm sorry and thanks for hearing me out.

Anyways, I'm no authority here and you've no obligation to listen to me. These are just my thoughts on this particular behavior I've observed. I hope you're enjoying D2, but I'd love to hear your thoughts either way.

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I really enjoyed your contributions on HBO and early Destiny.

Thanks!

Regarding this thread, I'll give some honest feedback since you responded. You didn't used to be a lurker, but in my observation your posts are now few and far between- with one exception. You come out and (ironically?) do the exact same thing to Raga that you accuse him of doing. And it isn't just an isolated instance. The only difference is that you don't have any content to contribute in these posts and your goal appears to solely lie in bringing someone down. That's being a dick. Who does that help? That's the kind of thing I'd hope we were above here and I'm sad that that exists as part of this place. Snark is great, but doing it just to hurt someone sucks.

Guilty on a few levels. My posts have been cut back because I have learned that not everything warrants a contribution. Sometimes others have already said how I feel. Other times, I feel like posting in a good or bad way, even if done politely and constructively, will lead to a thread like this. This thread’s posts from me are ironic and of course were on purpose. Cody posted a thing that people disagreed with both in tone and content. Shocking, right? We’ve clearly never seen this before! So, let’s pretend Ragashingo for once decides to pull a me here and just not reply. Phisto doesn’t post. I don’t post. You’re not upset. Someone else may hit Cody, sure, but it doesn’t always have to be Raga policing. That’s all I’m pointing out up above.

So yeah, I was being a dick. I try to balance out Ragashingo occasionally. Doesn’t appear to help, but it’s not like he’s stopping with Cody either. That vicious circle. I figured in this instance that maybe it’d put an end to that portion of the thread. It sorta did. The original post was nice, and I feel like the thread departed from it quickly. I’m actually in agreement with you as a whole. Thinking before posting, or maybe knowing when to just not post. This Cody/Raga thing happens a bunch. And so I occasionally post a thing.

It's not just you though. I think familiarity can breed contempt and there has been a rise in the number of posts that seem to be aimed at scoring points in a longstanding feud rather than engaging with ideas. Perhaps I'm overreacting and maybe I'm the only one this bothers. In that case, I'm sorry and thanks for hearing me out.

Yep. Which is why I’ve cut back in general. I feel like my own content may not get anywhere. That’s my own doing from previous history of engagement, too. But it’s been continuing around here pretty strongly even without my input. A lot of people may need to take a step back a bit. You’re not the only one it bothers. It bothers me, and as some of my posts show, I’m part of it sometimes. I had contempt for Raga previously. I’ve moved past it, and now I’d just like him to ease off on policing so much. He brings some solid stuff to the table, so why let the Cody feuding and whatnot overshadow it? The same applies to others. It’s just been disappointing to watch the sniping and battling occur in general. And yeah, sometimes I feel compelled to join in a bit.

Anyways, I'm no authority here and you've no obligation to listen to me. These are just my thoughts on this particular behavior I've observed. I hope you're enjoying D2, but I'd love to hear your thoughts either way.

Even some in authority here are guilty of the above. But hey, it happens. I’m thoroughly enjoying D2. I figure that I’ll have my thoughts out by tonight, or some time this week. I finally got to Trials and can give a full idea on the game now.

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In your whole reply you talked a lot about vicious circles and why you do the things that you do, but there was very little about what you, personally, are going to do differently. If you really want to get past this, and if you want to help make this board a better place, then you'll do the following:

1. Commit to cutting out the trolling.
2. Actually do it.

It's not like I'm asking the above in a vacuum or without looking towards what I do. I've already committed to changing my actions. I'm going to watch what I post and be nicer and stop adding in the little dig or knife twist I sometimes do while trying to make a point.

What I'm not going to do is respond to Cody (or anyone else) less. I steadfastly believe that it should not matter the number of times one person replies to another, as long as each reply is made in good faith and with respect. Praise or disagreement, I respond to every post here when I think my input is warranted. End of story. And you are certainly not going to change that by continuing to troll me.

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So what causes such massive polar opposition? Is it fanservice? Dedication? Skepticism? Annoyance?

A review is an opinion. It may be informed or uninformed, but as an opinion it cannot be "objective" despite the clamouring from certain circles.

The TA guy's looking for something different out of games than Yahtzee is. That's all.

-- Steve thinks Yahtzee can be insightful, even useful at times, but Y's tastes in games are not Steve's.

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Not really, IMO. I think it's just he's played so many games he's a bit jaded, and disappointed that none of the games he's playing today feel like the games he played before his palate got oversaturated.

-- Steve'll reiterate that most of what Yahtzee says has a basis in fact; it's just that many of the issues he points out aren't big issues for those who don't run into them a hundred times a week every week.

PS: plus, Yahtzee's schtick kinda dies without the snark; he's literally said as much when he gives the rare positive review.

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I suppose that it is hard to sum up things accurately in a title line. That's basically what I meant. That was less a criticism and more an observation. Game mechanics he tends to appreciate are often more familiarly "classic" while a lot of modern trends are not to his liking.

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I suppose that it is hard to sum up things accurately in a title line. That's basically what I meant. That was less a criticism and more an observation. Game mechanics he tends to appreciate are often more familiarly "classic" while a lot of modern trends are not to his liking.

I get the feeling he's remembering a time when game mechanics felt "new" and it was always a sense of discovery. Nowadays he's seen most mechanics so the new games feel "tired" to him. I've felt this way for a while, but there are the occasional gems that stand out.

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Happens all the time down here. ;-)

Whenever I make a thread, people knock it so far off the tracks, it sinks in the ocean!

Then flies up into orbit.

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