until he trained Yoda

Well, they say the best way to learn something is explaining it to others. Can't wait to see Rei finish Luke's training in Episode VIII! :p

Mary Sues gotta do what Mary Sues do.

until he trained Yoda

Well, they say the best way to learn something is explaining it to others. Can't wait to see Rei finish Luke's training in Episode VIII! :p

Nobody 'gave' Luke the Force. Midiclorians didn't exist then.

Yes, it's true that nobody had come up with a stupid explanation like Midichlorians in 1977... but absolutely someone GAVE Luke the Force - his parents. You think he LEARNED it all on that short flight to the death star?

He learned some. He also surely had developed discipline shooting womp rats back home. Luke didn't really come into his own regarding the Force until he trained Yoda, his destruction of the Death Star notwithstanding. I'm with Cody on this one. Originally, the Force was accessible to anyone until Lucas turned into anti-King Midas and everything he touched turned into shit. The Force was analogous to the Japanese concept of ki, and as with most good things in Star Wars, owes a debt to Akiri Kurosawa.

Nobody 'gave' Luke the Force. Midiclorians didn't exist then.

Yes, it's true that nobody had come up with a stupid explanation like Midichlorians in 1977... but absolutely someone GAVE Luke the Force - his parents. You think he LEARNED it all on that short flight to the death star?

Why would you recommend this video to me? Are you spying on me?

Hero mythology comes from an early point in that process. Humans couldn't quite articulate what they were trying to say, but they could tell stories that illustrated what they were trying to say. On what subject? The subject of "how to be the best person you can be, and live in the best manner that you can". That is what hero myths are trying to tell us. "Be this kind of person and the challenges of life won't stop you."

Those aren't the kinds of stories we are telling anymore. Again, look at the Matrix. Neo is 'The One". He just is. That's not a choice he made about how to live his life or conduct himself. He just is. And because he's The One, he's going to succeed.

Notice how the Matrix follows the Hero's Journey structure pretty closely? So why is it really about the opposite of what you say Hero stories are about?

That's totally narcissism. The belief that you are owed success because of what you (think you) are, not because of what you do. We are getting more stories like this because we are more narcissistic as a culture. It's comforting and re-inforcing.

These are the EXACT kind of stories we are telling, to this day. Some are just better told than others.

As far as the Matrix is concerned, you're glossing over the point where the Oracle tells Neo that he is not "the one". Neo leaves his meeting with her believing he is just another guy. What happens next? He chooses to do the right thing, no matter the cost. He chooses to sacrifice himself in the hope of helping his friend. He stands up to the forces of evil/darkness/whatever you want to call it, and rather than run like everyone else does, he confronts it head on (this is spelled out quite literally, in his confrontation with Agent Smith).

In doing all this, Neo BECOMES the One. Heroic actions cannot take place if the hero knows they can't lose. If that's the situation, then they aren't a hero. Neo is put into a situation where he is fully aware of his vulnerability, but he chooses to act like a hero nonetheless.

;)

Structurally when looking at the sequels Neo is not always The One only that within the system there must always be The One and these are two very different things. Eventually the system will have someone who "breaks" the bounds of its limitations at which point the system must be reset. If Neo had never been activated it would have had to be someone else, and other than the fact that we know where on the 6th cycle (I think?) in the films then the expressed reason for The One to exist precludes it from being someone dogeared for it.

As far as the Matrix is concerned, you're glossing over the point where the Oracle tells Neo that he is not "the one". Neo leaves his meeting with her believing he is just another guy. What happens next? He chooses to do the right thing, no matter the cost. He chooses to sacrifice himself in the hope of helping his friend. He stands up to the forces of evil/darkness/whatever you want to call it, and rather than run like everyone else does, he confronts it head on (this is spelled out quite literally, in his confrontation with Agent Smith).

In doing all this, Neo BECOMES the One. Heroic actions cannot take place if the hero knows they can't lose. If that's the situation, then they aren't a hero. Neo is put into a situation where he is fully aware of his vulnerability, but he chooses to act like a hero nonetheless.

I realize it's easy to forget they made sequels, but Reloaded and Revolutions make it clear Neo was 'always' the One. He didn't become the One because of that choice.

Heh, this is where getting bogged down in the literal or dogmatic details of a story can get in the way of understanding the deeper meanings ;)

Yes, Neo was always "the one". But in what sense? Let's set aside the very well thought-out fan theory that Agent Smith, not Neo, was "the one". Let's instead ask, what does it mean to say that Neo was always "the one"? What's the line that Morpheus says? "She told you exactly what you needed to hear". The way I see it, Neo was always "the one" in that he always had the ability to be a hero inside him. But as I said above, acting without fear of defeat, or pain, or death, cannot be heroic. So the Oracle strips Neo of any lingering hope of invincibility, so that his true character can emerge. And Neo responds by showing that deep down, he possesses the character of a hero.

The rest of that movie is quite opaque with its metaphors. Almost every major religion in the world incorporates the idea that pain & suffering are inescapable forces in life, and for good reason. Every single one of us faces hardship after hardship. What defines us in many ways is our ability to stand up to those hardships, weather them, and go on in life despite them. What makes a person able to stand against hardship? To survive suffering? Neo shows his willingness to stand up against darkness/evil/corruption in a way that nobody else does. He attacks Smith head on. He can't kill Smith (because you can't rid the world of pain and suffering... it is eternal), but he is able to face it and meet it knowingly, willingly. This is what formidable people do. And what happens next? Neo gets shot up like a piece of swiss cheese. Again, a very blunt metaphor. Morpheus and Trinity watch Neo go something that they know would kill them, something that should kill anyone, but Neo suffers the injury and is then transformed by it. Bullets can no longer hurt him. Again, the lesson is clear; accept your troubles, face them head on, and you will grow stronger.

You are also forgetting what the Oracle told Trinity regarding Neo (this is in the first movie).

I have a tough time placing Trinity into any significant role in the story of the Matrix, aside from that of the typical "love interest". It could be that they were going for a "father/son/holy spirit" dynamic between Neo, Morpheus, and Trinity, aside from her name it doesn't fit all that well as far as I can tell.

As far as what the Oracle told her, that just falls under the category of "telling people what they need to hear". For all her dedication to the cause, Trinity is a bit more of a skeptic than Morpheus. At the very least, she isn't as quick to make a leap of faith. This is a common trait; many humans are hesitant to believe the incredible, and would rather dismiss it or "reason it away". So the Oracle drops that little bit of info on Trinity to help give her a nudge in the right direction when the time comes. She knew that despite all of Trinity's time and effort helping Morpheus find The One, Trinity would be hesitant to believe it when she actually found him.

And I did mention that very thing in my original post, because yes, it made the drama and catharsis of the story way better.

True, but there is more to it than that, I believe (as I already described)

As far as the Matrix is concerned, you're glossing over the point where the Oracle tells Neo that he is not "the one". Neo leaves his meeting with her believing he is just another guy. What happens next? He chooses to do the right thing, no matter the cost. He chooses to sacrifice himself in the hope of helping his friend. He stands up to the forces of evil/darkness/whatever you want to call it, and rather than run like everyone else does, he confronts it head on (this is spelled out quite literally, in his confrontation with Agent Smith).

In doing all this, Neo BECOMES the One. Heroic actions cannot take place if the hero knows they can't lose. If that's the situation, then they aren't a hero. Neo is put into a situation where he is fully aware of his vulnerability, but he chooses to act like a hero nonetheless.

I realize it's easy to forget they made sequels, but Reloaded and Revolutions make it clear Neo was 'always' the One. He didn't become the One because of that choice. You are also forgetting what the Oracle told Trinity regarding Neo (this is in the first movie).

And I did mention that very thing in my original post, because yes, it made the drama and catharsis of the story way better.

Hero mythology comes from an early point in that process. Humans couldn't quite articulate what they were trying to say, but they could tell stories that illustrated what they were trying to say. On what subject? The subject of "how to be the best person you can be, and live in the best manner that you can". That is what hero myths are trying to tell us. "Be this kind of person and the challenges of life won't stop you."

Those aren't the kinds of stories we are telling anymore. Again, look at the Matrix. Neo is 'The One". He just is. That's not a choice he made about how to live his life or conduct himself. He just is. And because he's The One, he's going to succeed.

Notice how the Matrix follows the Hero's Journey structure pretty closely? So why is it really about the opposite of what you say Hero stories are about?

That's totally narcissism. The belief that you are owed success because of what you (think you) are, not because of what you do. We are getting more stories like this because we are more narcissistic as a culture. It's comforting and re-inforcing.

These are the EXACT kind of stories we are telling, to this day. Some are just better told than others.

As far as the Matrix is concerned, you're glossing over the point where the Oracle tells Neo that he is not "the one". Neo leaves his meeting with her believing he is just another guy. What happens next? He chooses to do the right thing, no matter the cost. He chooses to sacrifice himself in the hope of helping his friend. He stands up to the forces of evil/darkness/whatever you want to call it, and rather than run like everyone else does, he confronts it head on (this is spelled out quite literally, in his confrontation with Agent Smith).

In doing all this, Neo BECOMES the One. Heroic actions cannot take place if the hero knows they can't lose. If that's the situation, then they aren't a hero. Neo is put into a situation where he is fully aware of his vulnerability, but he chooses to act like a hero nonetheless.

Hero mythology comes from an early point in that process. Humans couldn't quite articulate what they were trying to say, but they could tell stories that illustrated what they were trying to say. On what subject? The subject of "how to be the best person you can be, and live in the best manner that you can". That is what hero myths are trying to tell us. "Be this kind of person and the challenges of life won't stop you."

Those aren't the kinds of stories we are telling anymore. Again, look at the Matrix. Neo is 'The One". He just is. That's not a choice he made about how to live his life or conduct himself. He just is. And because he's The One, he's going to succeed.

Notice how the Matrix follows the Hero's Journey structure pretty closely? So why is it really about the opposite of what you say Hero stories are about?

Meanwhile there is nothing special about Jake in Avatar. He wins because he summons the cuourage to do so from within. See the difference?

That's totally narcissism. The belief that you are owed success because of what you (think you) are, not because of what you do. We are getting more stories like this because we are more narcissistic as a culture. It's comforting and re-inforcing.

fostering the strength that he/she did, could not help but achieve greatness.

This is narcissism. You can't help but achieve greatness because of who you are. Exactly what I don't like about so many modern stories :-D

No, it isn't narcissism. I didn't say that the hero in question believes that they cannot fail or do wrong. The argument is that "heros" in all stories share common traits. They are the same traits that we admire when we look at people around us. Inner strength. Dedication to the truth. Willingness to sacrifice. Desire to make things better for the world as a whole. Generally speaking, a true narcissist shares none of those traits.

Not the narcissism of the hero. The narcissism of the storyteller!

While Neo is very selfless, the Matrix is a very narcissistic story. It’s not you that’s wrong… the world is wrong.

That's not what narcissism means at all. And what I'm talking about goes beyond storytelling. You could think of it as the reason that we tell stories at all.

We know that there is a process that humans go through on their way to "understanding" something. You can see this on an individual level (by watching the process of a child grow up) or on mass cultural levels over time (by watching the way our stories started vague, then get detailed, then get fleshed out into full-blown religions, then codified into articulated law).

Hero mythology comes from an early point in that process. Humans couldn't quite articulate what they were trying to say, but they could tell stories that illustrated what they were trying to say. On what subject? The subject of "how to be the best person you can be, and live in the best manner that you can". That is what hero myths are trying to tell us. "Be this kind of person and the challenges of life won't stop you."

It has nothing to do with narcissism. It is the illustration of a moral code.

fostering the strength that he/she did, could not help but achieve greatness.

This is narcissism. You can't help but achieve greatness because of who you are. Exactly what I don't like about so many modern stories :-D

No, it isn't narcissism. I didn't say that the hero in question believes that they cannot fail or do wrong. The argument is that "heros" in all stories share common traits. They are the same traits that we admire when we look at people around us. Inner strength. Dedication to the truth. Willingness to sacrifice. Desire to make things better for the world as a whole. Generally speaking, a true narcissist shares none of those traits.

Not the narcissism of the hero. The narcissism of the storyteller!

While Neo is very selfless, the Matrix is a very narcissistic story. It’s not you that’s wrong… the world is wrong.

fostering the strength that he/she did, could not help but achieve greatness.

This is narcissism. You can't help but achieve greatness because of who you are. Exactly what I don't like about so many modern stories :-D

No, it isn't narcissism. I didn't say that the hero in question believes that they cannot fail or do wrong. The argument is that "heros" in all stories share common traits. They are the same traits that we admire when we look at people around us. Inner strength. Dedication to the truth. Willingness to sacrifice. Desire to make things better for the world as a whole. Generally speaking, a true narcissist shares none of those traits.

fostering the strength that he/she did, could not help but achieve greatness.

This is narcissism. You can't help but achieve greatness because of who you are. Exactly what I don't like about so many modern stories :-D

Okay, I think I can see the disconnect now. Although I have nothing to offer for it. If you find the power having been given something that invalidates its use as by meaningful free choice, then, well, yeah this is just down to opinion. Personal philosophy, maybe. I can't say more to that. Sorry that I jumped to the wrong conclusions as to where the break was.

It's totally personal opinion. I mentioned destiny in greek literature only because it is in stark contrast to how it is used in contemporary times. I dislike prophesies and chosen heroes and stuff. But I love seeing people trying to defy their fate in tales of caution.

The basic idea is that our stories, cultural fables, religious myths, etc, are based on our own accounts of human history over thousands and thousands of years. That people all over the world watch each other, learn from each other, and recognize something special in an individual who is able to do great things. We might not be able to articulate exactly what makes that person special or why they are able to do amazing things, but we tell stories about them nonetheless. And as those stories grow in number over the generations, people start to notice commonalities between the "heroes" of such stories. And that this leads to the creation of new stories that feature "meta heroes"; characters that are combinations, or distillations, or amalgamations of the traits and personalities of all the great people we have observed throughout our history.

Carrying that concept forward, questions about "Destiny" can easily be turned on their head. It isn't that a hero (like 117, for example) was guaranteed to achieve greatness because of forces outside of his control. It is the opposite; A hero, by making the choices that he/she made, fostering the strength that he/she did, could not help but achieve greatness. And that is a very different thing than having greatness handed to you.

I'm just happy I got to have fun writing this stuff, and that so many people enjoyed reading it. (Honestly, thank you to everybody who read this and complimented it and tossed their own thoughts in. It's been beyond gratifying. I'd reply individually but it would be pretty repetitious.) And thank you for starting the conversation, Cody, by the way.