Avatar

High Moon Studios, Fall of Cybertron, and Destiny (Destiny)

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, January 04, 2016, 20:50 (3341 days ago)

This is borderline off-topic, but it ties back in to Destiny so I figured some of you might be interested :)

I was just poking through some old videos on my Youtube channel, and came across a series of Fall of Cybertron multiplayer guides I put together a couple years ago. This got me thinking about High Moon Studios' involvement with Destiny, and what it might entail. Specifically, I hope High Moon is doing more than port work or optimization. I'd like to see them actually get their fingers into the game and help guide things a bit.

I played the crap out of Fall of Cybertron back when it came out, and rewatching my old videos made me remember just how fantastic the combat in that game is. More to the point, they handled the different classes in ways that might make sense for Destiny down the road.

The big thing that jumps out at me about FoC is how distinct the 4 different classes were, without any 1 class feeling substantially overpowered. Each class plays substantially different from the others, yet they all had room to compete in their own ways. I think they were able to hit this balance for a few reasons. First of all, Destiny's character classes have way more subtle options and differences between them, and I think that causes some problems. For example; in Destiny, I know that the average Titan has more armor than the average Hunter. But I don't know for sure, or by how much. I can stick an enemy Titan with my Trip Mine and it might kill him, but it might not. I can hit him with 2 body shots from my Uzume Sniper and it might kill him, but it might not. These are the kinds of variables that all add up to make Destiny feel a bit too haphazard for my taste at times. There's a lot of "All I can do is throw a hail Mary and hope for the best", rather than knowing precisely "If I do X then Y will happen".

Comparing that to Fall of Cybertron, if I'm playing as the Infiltrator Class and I come up against and enemy Titan class, I know with 100% certainty that he has significantly more health than me. I know that going toe-to-toe in open combat is a bad idea. And that's ok, because my own class gives me ways to avoid those situations and create advantages through my own abilities. There's a kind of logical synergy between the character classes in the Cybertron games that I feel Destiny lacks at times. A Titan in FoC is the biggest, strongest, most damage-resistant class on the battlefield. Strategically, you use them exactly how you would expect to use such a character. In Destiny, the Titan's armor suggests that you should play something of a "tank" role by running in and dealing damage up close. But then you try to do it and get smacked by Warlocks with twice your melee range or catch a throwing knife in the face from a Hunter as they bunny-hop over your head.

In addition to the class abilities, FoC maintained balance by keeping every single weapon class-specific. Each class had weapons tailored and balanced around their traits and abilities. Now this kind of design is obviously very different from what we have in Destiny, but we are starting to see Bungie lean in this direction ever so slightly with the 3 class-specific exotics introduced with TTK. It's a tiny step, but I think it shows promise.

Anyway, this is all just a bunch of musings that have been going through my brain since watching those videos today. I'm excited to have High Moon involved with Destiny in some capacity. I hope they get a chance to let their design influences make their way into the game in one form or another.

Here are the videos for anyone who is interested:




Two seperate points in here...

by electricpirate @, Monday, January 04, 2016, 23:13 (3341 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I think you are making two seperate and important arguments in here.

1. is an argument for greater class seperation.

For me, I like how subtle these differences are. I think that's how Destiny walks it's weird line between satisfying shooter and RPG. I'm not really sure you can seperate the two and maintaing the progression or interesting customization options. Maybe it's because I play Titan, and they have perhaps the highest differentiation of any the classes right now? Striker actually feels like an up close bruiser, but I can still use the guns. Defender feels very support like, or that I want to tank a lot of damage, etc. and sun breaker feels like he's just a super machine still, waiting to pop that super. So I dunno, I feel pretty good about the differentiated rolls of these classes. Admittidly, you see that a lot more in strikes/ the raid where orbs are raining down, and supers can come into play more.

There's a lot of games out there that do theses big differences between classes. But that subtlety actually makes destiny really unique IMO

2. The other is a problem with information presentation.

Destiny has a lot of trouble getting the right amount of visual information to you. Understanding what a dude can tank, and how much health they have are all really fuzzy. That's in part because of that subtlety, but also a bit by design, as it helps with some of the vagaries of connection weirdness and other problems.

Especially compared to Halo, where the state of your enemies was always crystal clear. Destinie's damage numbers and bars and health system are all muddy and confusing. Honestly, that kind of visual mud is my main issue with destiny. The TTK even made it worse in some ways, with the taken who were all the same color, and had similar profiles

Avatar

Two seperate points in here...

by Kahzgul, Tuesday, January 05, 2016, 17:27 (3340 days ago) @ electricpirate

I think you are making two seperate and important arguments in here.

1. is an argument for greater class seperation.

For me, I like how subtle these differences are. I think that's how Destiny walks it's weird line between satisfying shooter and RPG. I'm not really sure you can seperate the two and maintaing the progression or interesting customization options. Maybe it's because I play Titan, and they have perhaps the highest differentiation of any the classes right now? Striker actually feels like an up close bruiser, but I can still use the guns. Defender feels very support like, or that I want to tank a lot of damage, etc. and sun breaker feels like he's just a super machine still, waiting to pop that super. So I dunno, I feel pretty good about the differentiated rolls of these classes. Admittidly, you see that a lot more in strikes/ the raid where orbs are raining down, and supers can come into play more.

There's a lot of games out there that do theses big differences between classes. But that subtlety actually makes destiny really unique IMO

2. The other is a problem with information presentation.

Destiny has a lot of trouble getting the right amount of visual information to you. Understanding what a dude can tank, and how much health they have are all really fuzzy. That's in part because of that subtlety, but also a bit by design, as it helps with some of the vagaries of connection weirdness and other problems.

Especially compared to Halo, where the state of your enemies was always crystal clear. Destinie's damage numbers and bars and health system are all muddy and confusing. Honestly, that kind of visual mud is my main issue with destiny. The TTK even made it worse in some ways, with the taken who were all the same color, and had similar profiles

I agree. I really like how destiny's classes are just slightly different feeling FPS dudes, rather than distinct and definitive role players.

The presentation, however, leaves a lot to be desired. I think the form was allowed to outstrip the function, and it's a confusing and overly complicated mess. Some things are bars, some are numbers, bars and numbers from one thing don't mean the same thing when they're on a different thing, how the numbers and bars relate to actual in-game values in a wholly different thing... ugh. I just want "you have this much health. Your gun does this much damage." We KNOW these values thanks to data miners and third party websites and such, but ffs put that information in the game already. It's like the Grimoire... if it isn't in the game, it isn't in the game. That's poor design.

Avatar

High Moon Studios, Fall of Cybertron, and Destiny

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Tuesday, January 05, 2016, 11:58 (3340 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

A Titan in FoC is the biggest, strongest, most damage-resistant class on the battlefield. Strategically, you use them exactly how you would expect to use such a character. In Destiny, the Titan's armor suggests that you should play something of a "tank" role by running in and dealing damage up close. But then you try to do it and get smacked by Warlocks with twice your melee range or catch a throwing knife in the face from a Hunter as they bunny-hop over your head.

I've had this problem from day one with Destiny... It's the one thing that has always bothered me. Of course I'm also a Titan so...

Back to the forum index
RSS Feed of thread