According to Polygon, Chris Shlerf who was the senior writer and narrative director of Halo 4 and lead writer on Mass Effect: Andromeda, has left BioWare and now works for Bungie. He also wrote the first six issues of Halo: Escalation, apparently.

I don't intend to start the debate about Halo 4's story, but I thought this was pretty interesting news. From Halo to Mass Effect to Destiny. He's putting his hands on everything, it seems.

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According to Polygon, Chris Shlerf who was the senior writer and narrative director of Halo 4 and lead writer on Mass Effect: Andromeda, has left BioWare and now works for Bungie. He also wrote the first six issues of Halo: Escalation, apparently.

I don't intend to start the debate about Halo 4's story, but I thought this was pretty interesting news. From Halo to Mass Effect to Destiny. He's putting his hands on everything, it seems.

He's bouncing around the game development industry like a ping pong ball in a washing machine, isn't he?

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I hated the story in Halo 4, but maybe it wasn't his fault?

I felt the character evolution of the Chief and Cortana was some of the best writing in any Halo game so far, and as long as they don't stick him writing grimoire cards, any story from Shlerf making it's way into the game of Destiny will be an improvement.

- MacGyver10

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I felt the character evolution of the Chief and Cortana was some of the best writing in any Halo game so far, and as long as they don't stick him writing grimoire cards, any story from Shlerf making it's way into the game of Destiny will be an improvement.

- MacGyver10

Yeah. Characters feeling like real people instead of being props for the plot and mouthpieces for jokes is something that could significantly improve Destiny, the Destiny story, and the Destiny universe.

The grimoires have been quality goods since day 1 (though I still say they should be an actual part of the actual game, but I digress).

Here's how I view the quality of destiny's writing:

- Day 1 Destiny: 1/10. There are words spoken, and some of them make sense (not all of them though), but they're mostly bad jokes with poor timing or statements along the lines of "I could tell you... but I won't" which is a cop out of the worst kind.

- Dark Below: 3/10. Hey look, there's 1 character in Destiny now who has personality! But seriously, still no actual explanation and a lot of other characters acting like what you're doing is wholly unimportant for unknown reasons.

- House of Wolves: 5/10. Another character with personality and a plot that kind of tracks. How exotic (see what I did there?). And yet the jump from "we've captured skolas" to "now go kill him in this prison" is never explained, nor is the initial event of the wolves escaping/forming in the first place.

- The Taken King: 8/10. VAST improvement. We have some cutscenes to lend credence and import to the story. A backstory of what's going on. Jokes that are funny! Nathan Fillion being awesome! The hero gets to be awesome! The finale feels epic! So much good stuff here. And then, well, then it all completely disappears when you're in the "endgame."

So if I'm being honest, the Destiny writing has been getting steadily better over the life of the game. But let's compare to the grimoire writing:

Day 1: 7/10. None of this makes sense because it all unlocks out of order and without context. And the game is zero help whatsoever for providing that context. But dang, once you unlock it all it actually reads pretty well, provides some good stories, and introduces some key characters who are not in the actual game.

DB, HoW: 8/10. I've got more backstory and context now, and these unlock in order-ish, as you play the sequences missions.

TTK: 9/10. I absolutely love the calcified fragments story. The only reason this isn't 10/10 is that the implementation of the grimoire is still, imo, terrible. I should be able to access these within a terminal in the game. If you can add a bunch of friggin roses to the tower, you can damn well put a terminal in there that lets me read my unlocked grimoire cards. Better yet, hire some voice actors to read them.

Because writing lore and text is very very different than writing for a visual medium. The grimoire people are good at what they do, but that does not mean they can take that into game. I've gone about explaining it before.

I felt the character evolution of the Chief and Cortana was some of the best writing in any Halo game so far, and as long as they don't stick him writing grimoire cards, any story from Shlerf making it's way into the game of Destiny will be an improvement.

- MacGyver10

Yeah. Characters feeling like real people instead of being props for the plot and mouthpieces for jokes is something that could significantly improve Destiny, the Destiny story, and the Destiny universe.

But I just can't get behind the whole nuke exploding right next to the Chief and Cortana "magically" saving him. As far as trying to make the Chief and Cortana like real people, I don't remember it feeling that way to me. To each his own though.

Because writing lore and text is very very different than writing for a visual medium. The grimoire people are good at what they do, but that does not mean they can take that into game. I've gone about explaining it before.

I admit that it is possible for someone to be great at one medium and not any good at the other, just as you say. But you know what? If you wrote down the script of the game of Destiny and just read it out loud, it would still suck balls.

There's no characterization, no descriptions, and even the things that are mysterious within the game world are literally never talked about. "Blah blah blah the Traveler blah." What the hell? There's a giant sphere FLOATING over a city and no one bats an eye. You just CAME BACK FROM THE DEAD and it's business as usual. People keep telling you that they'll explain when you get to the city (nope), they could tell you the stories (they don't) they don't have time to explain why they don't have time to explain (more like they don't have an explanation). Other events are out of sequence "The black garden? we've heard of it" (no, we haven't) followed almost immediately by "the database talks about something called the black garden..." (delivered like we'd never heard of it before even though the Exo just asked us about it one or two missions prior).

That's just sloppy and bad writing, plain and simple. There's no distinction needed between it being a visual medium versus a text medium. The writing sucks. Having the art and sound of bad writing doesn't make it more or less awful.

Could you take the grimoire and just put that into the game as text and have it work? Yes, in fact you could. Could the people who wrote that also write the script to Destiny 2? I don't know. BUT... I know that whoever wrote the script for Destiny 1 was awful. With the Grimoire people being a question mark for script writing but aces for text, I have a lot more faith in them than in the original writing team for the game itself.

Furthermore, they also seem to have an intimate understanding of the universe of the game. That puts them ahead of any outside help as far as I'm concerned. I hope that, at the very least, they are involved in the process of writing Destiny 2. And I hope that the writers of Destiny 1 are not involved in any way.

One of these days I'll get around to posting an analysis of Books of Sorrow. I read a reasonable amount of science fiction, and I would say that it would fit in as a stand alone short story in many of the "Best of Year X" anthologies.

One of the cool news items a while back was an interview with some of the (apparent?) Grimoire writers, including our own General Battuta: here.

From that, it doesn't seem like the Grimoire writers were necessarily involved with the game narrative at all, and maybe they wouldn't have wanted to be, as it wouldn't have fit their style. They were more involved with the science fiction world building, which then Bungie tried to fit a narrative into, although some back and forth must have occurred. It's hard to speculate on how exactly that must have worked.

At the end of the day, an FPS game narrative has to fill the gaps between long periods of shooting at things. I bet some of these guys would find that pretty constraining, and would prefer contributing the way that they did.

Personally, for that same reason, I'm okay with the Grimoire being separate from the game narrative, especially if that allows us to have things like the Books of Sorrow. For a while, when I was still finding them at a reasonable pace, after I was done playing for the night I would go and read the new bits I had unlocked. I think I actually prefer that to having them pop-up in game or something. It allows me to separate the gameplay (shooting at stuff, managing inventory) and the lore, so I can focus on each rather than splitting my attention.

I wrote a very large chunk of the D1 Grimoire and in-game flavor text, as well as a large contribution to Dark/HoW and all of the Books of Sorrow, and I really think I'd have suffered writing game script.

Grimoire cards were a case of 'we'll lock you in this room, brainstorm and jam and write whatever you want, your boss will review it with his expert eyes and then it's going to translation'. (This process was intense and fun and probably the best time I ever had at Bungie.) Voiced game script is a highly political process, with review from studio leads, multiple rewrites, designer feedback, and, of course, the need to meet the actor's schedules.

Note that the Grimoire cards are pretty stylistically and thematically diverse. You've got talk about mind forking, concatenated simulations, military flash traffic, Cormac McCarthy stylings...how much of this would survive the process of becoming a game script, which needs (for very good reason) to be accessible to a broad audience?

It's a moot point since none of the D1 Grimoire or script team is still at Bungie, but while I'd love to (and hope to) keep writing Grimoire cards, I think they're much more like Marathon terminals than they are like game script proper.

The current Bungie writing team is full of super cool talent and I'm excited to read their cards!

The current Bungie writing team is full of super cool talent and I'm excited to read their cards!

You used to get shot for that in the Old West.

please don't toy with my emotions
DSP when?

There's no characterization, no descriptions, and even the things that are mysterious within the game world are literally never talked about. "Blah blah blah the Traveler blah." What the hell? There's a giant sphere FLOATING over a city and no one bats an eye. You just CAME BACK FROM THE DEAD and it's business as usual.

It's part of the setting, including the lack of information about it.

Other events are out of sequence "The black garden? we've heard of it" (no, we haven't)

I'm pretty sure the Ghost was speaking for himself. Admittedly It's bad writing to not make it more clear that the player character hasn't had some off-screen lecture on Vex chrono-fuckery or something.

followed almost immediately by "the database talks about something called the black garden..." (delivered like we'd never heard of it before even though the Exo just asked us about it one or two missions prior).

You just reminded me you said that when the game came out and I never got to correct you because I read it too late, so thanks for that. It was the Vault of Glass in that database, not the Black Garden.

Furthermore, they also seem to have an intimate understanding of the universe of the game.

If you're really seeing that much of a difference in quality (and know the objective difference in quantity) and you think this group is the one truly in touch with the universe, wouldn't it more be the universe of the Grimoire, which the game happens to take place in?

That puts them ahead of any outside help as far as I'm concerned. I hope that, at the very least, they are involved in the process of writing Destiny 2. And I hope that the writers of Destiny 1 are not involved in any way.

That's a bit much, don't you think? For good or ill the writers of the first game know a lot about the universe because they created much of it. Not only that: having created it, they may be more able (or more easily able) to recreate and extend the feel of it than someone who merely knows all the facts of who's who and what's where and when this and that happened, because they know the reasoning and thought processes and feelings behind the facts.

It's a moot point since none of the D1 Grimoire or script team is still at Bungie,

that's unfortunate

but while I'd love to (and hope to) keep writing Grimoire cards, I think they're much more like Marathon terminals than they are like game script proper.

I know you know this but I want to point it out anyway: there's a big difference there, the difference is that in Marathon the entire story (aside from an introduction in the manual) was in the terminals.

Who wrote the textual dialog you'd get handing in mission items and exotic bounties, and now also quests?

But is a horribly written story better than no story at all? Is this a careful what you wish for moment?

You happen to dislike the one thing you've seen from the guy, so everything he does after that automatically sucks?

The closed-mindedness is real. I blame 343 and Halo 4. But I can be optimistic for you. I mean, surely having some story has got to be better than having no story at all. The bar is already so low that it's just barely above the ground, so one would assume that we can only go up from here. High five.

So I'm the last person who would ever defend the quality of the in-game story in Destiny 1... I think it was a complete train-wreck. However, I would also hesitate to lay the blame for D1's story at the feet of the writers, crazy as that sounds.

Writing stories for videogames is like trying to paint the side of a moving car while leaning out the window of another moving car... and the 2 cars are never going the same speed... and people keep changing their minds about which colors they want, and whether they want it air-brushed or rolled... you get my point ;)

The problem videogame writers face is that the scope and scale of the game can shift on a dime, at almost any point in development. More often than not, the writer needs to work around the missions and scenarios the designers are already creating and attempt to give the player some sort of reason to do the things they are doing. Writers rarely get to create a complete story and then have the game made to fit that story. They might get 8 months from launch when the team suddenly decides to cut 1/3 of the missions from the campaign.

Writer: "But... those missions were crucial to the story!"
Writer's boss: "Not anymore, make it work."

In the case of Destiny, by all accounts the original story was completely gutted a year before launch. The team didn't have time to create new cutscenes, record new dialog... any of the stuff you need to tell a story. So they had to take what they already had, cut it up, and try to make something serviceable out of it. In my opinion, they failed. And the original writers may very well be at fault, but I could just as easily chalk it up to the game being so completely restructured that no story could possibly survive intact.

The closed-mindedness is real. I blame 343 and Halo 4. But I can be optimistic for you. I mean, surely having some story has got to be better than having no story at all! The bar is already so low that it's just barely above the ground, so one would assume that we can only go up from here. High five.

I can't change how you feel; I just think it's unfortunate. If I wrote people off after one chance, I'd have experienced fewer good things in my life. I'd have never read Lord of the Rings, one of my favorite novels, because I hated The Hobbit. I'd have never read past the first Harry Potter book, because I didn't like it the first time I read it. I'd have never read many of Stephen King's good novels, because I hated the first one I read (I can't even remember which one that was. The Stand, I think.). I'd have not played The Witcher 3, because I hated The Witcher 1. I could go on.

We don't really know in what capacity he'll be involved (although I think we have to assume it'll be heavily, given his status as lead on Halo 4 and Mass Effect: Andromeda). I guess one could say that he can't screw up Destiny in the same way he screwed up Halo (if you believe that; I don't), in that Destiny doesn't really seem to have many fans of its story the same way Halo did. Halo 4 was bound to be a disappointment to some people, given the fitting send-off Bungie gave the Master Chief in Halo 3. I understand why they brought him back, but even as someone who likes 343i's continuation of the Halo story, I feel like it probably would have been better to leave him drifting forever. There isn't that pressure with Destiny.

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We don't really know in what capacity he'll be involved (although I think we have to assume it'll be heavily, given his status as lead on Halo 4 and Mass Effect: Andromeda). I guess one could say that he can't screw up Destiny in the same way he screwed up Halo (if you believe that; I don't), in that Destiny doesn't really seem to have many fans of its story the same way Halo did. Halo 4 was bound to be a disappointment to some people, given the fitting send-off Bungie gave the Master Chief in Halo 3. I understand why they brought him back, but even as someone who likes 343i's continuation of the Halo story, I feel like it probably would have been better to leave him drifting forever. There isn't that pressure with Destiny.

I'd say that's a pretty fair assessment. Destiny has practically nothing going for it in terms of story right now beyond whatever the Queen and Eris are up to. Maybe it'll work out. Expectations may not be Halo-level, but there are definitely pretty big story expectations due to the large disappointment from the lack thereof in year one.

I'd have never read many of Stephen King's good novels, because I hated the first one I read (I can't even remember which one that was. The Stand, I think.).

It would be pretty weird to like Stephen King but hate The Stand. Which ones do you like?

The current Bungie writing team is full of super cool talent and I'm excited to read their cards!

Likewise. :)

I'd have never read many of Stephen King's good novels, because I hated the first one I read (I can't even remember which one that was. The Stand, I think.).

It would be pretty weird to like Stephen King but hate The Stand. Which ones do you like?

To be fair, I never finished The Stand. The idea was intriguing, but after over 200 pages without anything of real consequence happening (I feel like he was still setting up characters at that point, but it's been a while), I got bored. I also don't remember for sure, but I think I may have had the extended version.

I like most of his books that have been made into films. The Shining is one of my favorites (and Doctor Sleep is up there, too). Honestly, I like his short stories much, much more than any of his novels, except for The Shining.

Is The Stand really that good? It's been about a decade since I tried to read it, so maybe I should give it another shot sometime.

As an aside, I really enjoyed all of his son's novels.

EDIT: I got curious and looked up if Joe Hill (his son, for those unaware) had released any new books since I read his last one, and he is releasing The Fireman this year, which he says his version The Stand. Heh. Maybe I'll like that one better . . .

I'd have never read many of Stephen King's good novels, because I hated the first one I read (I can't even remember which one that was. The Stand, I think.).

It would be pretty weird to like Stephen King but hate The Stand. Which ones do you like?

To be fair, I never finished The Stand. The idea was intriguing, but after over 200 pages without anything of real consequence happening (I feel like he was still setting up characters at that point, but it's been a while), I got bored. I also don't remember for sure, but I think I may have had the extended version.

I like most of his books that have been made into films. The Shining is one of my favorites (and Doctor Sleep is up there, too). Honestly, I like his short stories much, much more than any of his novels, except for The Shining.

Is The Stand really that good? It's been about a decade since I tried to read it, so maybe I should give it another shot sometime.

As an aside, I really enjoyed all of his son's novels.

EDIT: I got curious and looked up if Joe Hill (his son, for those unaware) had released any new books since I read his last one, and he is releasing The Fireman this year, which he says his version The Stand. Heh. Maybe I'll like that one better . . .

I got hooked by his short stories when I was pretty young (14 or 15, I think), and moved on to other stuff; he became one of my favorite writers. The Stand is fantastic, but you're right -it's very very long. :)

The closed-mindedness is real. I blame 343 and Halo 4.

It shouldn't be real and it doesn't matter who you blame. Halo 4 has nothing to do with you deciding to take a person's whole career and disclaim it as trash, pre-emptively even.

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I'd say that's a pretty fair assessment. Destiny has practically nothing going for it in terms of story right now beyond whatever the Queen and Eris are up to. Maybe it'll work out. Expectations may not be Halo-level, but there are definitely pretty big story expectations due to the large disappointment from the lack thereof in year one.

How does that work? "I'm disappointed in you, so I'm expecting great things."

To be fair, I never finished The Stand. The idea was intriguing, but after over 200 pages without anything of real consequence happening (I feel like he was still setting up characters at that point, but it's been a while), I got bored. I also don't remember for sure, but I think I may have had the extended version.

I like most of his books that have been made into films. The Shining is one of my favorites (and Doctor Sleep is up there, too). Honestly, I like his short stories much, much more than any of his novels, except for The Shining.

Is The Stand really that good? It's been about a decade since I tried to read it, so maybe I should give it another shot sometime.

The Stand is the only one of his books I've really read. (One time I looked through a sort of meditation on fiction and horror and his own works called Danse Macabre, and a family member gave me The Dead Zone a few years ago and I have yet to pry myself away from electronics long enough to read it.) I liked it but it does take a while to get going and progress from one thing to another (at least in the unabridged version). I felt that was made less of an issue in the early parts by the inherent tension of the world falling apart, and in the later parts by the way the focus narrowed and the stakes raised; the middle could be called a slog. The chapters about the tail end of the conflict and die-off from the virus are some of the most affecting things I've ever read.

The closed-mindedness is real. I blame 343 and Halo 4.

It shouldn't be real and it doesn't matter who you blame. Halo 4 has nothing to do with you deciding to take a person's whole career and disclaim it as trash, pre-emptively even.

Whole career? The dude's pretty much only written Halo 4 and some of Escalation as far as video game involvement goes. And Escalation sucked, too, btw. In my opinion, naturally. Unfortunately, I don't have ME: A yet to see how awesome it is. Or maybe it won't be! I can only go based off of the utter disaster that was Halo 4. But as I said to cheapLEY, going from no story to some sort of story surely has to be better than being where we are currently, right?

[from another post]

I'd say that's a pretty fair assessment. Destiny has practically nothing going for it in terms of story right now beyond whatever the Queen and Eris are up to. Maybe it'll work out. Expectations may not be Halo-level, but there are definitely pretty big story expectations due to the large disappointment from the lack thereof in year one.

How does that work? "I'm disappointed in you, so I'm expecting great things."

While the Destiny-web as a whole loves to complain endlessly about Destiny, one of the biggest (and by far most legitimate complaints) has been the complete and utter lack of story in Destiny. People have been extremely disappointed by it, and the thought is that Destiny 2 will somehow redeem the franchise and provide some sort of wonderful story that should have been in the first game. Bungie's hiring of Halo 4 guy would seem to imply that they're going to give a story a real shot in Destiny 2, right? So, I think it's more of "I'm disappointed in you, I really hope you get this right the second time around" as opposed to "I'm expecting great things" and such. People are guarded, but there's... wait for it... hope for the future!

We're probably not going to see any major developments from him until the sequel to the Destiny (2017) project.

That is unless Bungie, yet again, scrapped major parts of story and started all over a second time.

Unlikely, but hey, anything's possible.

How so? You're talking DLC/expansions or Destiny 3? Are you going based off of a potential September 2017 launch, and even though it's just over a year and a half out, maybe not enough time for him to have any real impact?

How so? You're talking DLC/expansions or Destiny 3? Are you going based off of a potential September 2017 launch, and even though it's just over a year and a half out, maybe not enough time for him to have any real impact?

I personally don't think a delay from the projected 2016 launch would be set back another full year, but who knows.

Anyway, it's either/or for DLC/expansions and "Destiny 3". If it does launch 2017, regardless of time frame, it seems that we are at least half way into development for "Destiny 2". Major parts of story has to be locked down by now.

Or at least I hope.

But I just can't get behind the whole nuke exploding right next to the Chief and Cortana "magically" saving him. As far as trying to make the Chief and Cortana like real people, I don't remember it feeling that way to me. To each his own though.

There are two stories in Halo 4. There's the emotional character story between the Chief and Cortana, and then there's the rather mindless action story that involves nukes and Forerunner generals and enslaved souls bound into techno-thralls.

Schlerf wrote the former, and had to fight hard to keep that plot from being left on the cutting room floor. I think he'll be a good match for Bungie.

You know, it's weird. I'm not a Stephen King fan, but I've read more of him than a lot of authors I really like. I read Dreamcatcher, The Green Mile, The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon, From a Buick 8, Skeleton Crew, Night Shift, Nightmares & Dreamscapes, and Just After Sunset. I read these because over the years I've found them at the Salvation Army for like 20 cents and that's how I can buy books.

His novels I've read are completely forgettable, but some short stories stick with me, like The Jaunt, or whatever the one is where he's a doctor and slowly eats himself as he goes crazy and it ends with "they taste just like ladyfingers" or something.

Anyway, I've never read a Stephen King short story I wasn't pleased with, but I've never really enjoyed the novels I read from him, and never go out of my way for more of his books or stories. People always talk about this Maine crap he's into or some kind of shared universe, but I never noticed.

That said, I've got $12 in Amazon promotional credit for ebooks. Can you suggest me a novel that would appeal to a person who enjoys his short stories, but isn't a fan per se?

I'd probably accept Orson Scott Card. I hated the Ender's Game series but what he wrote for Shadow Complex was pretty good.

Mass Effect has a good story (again with the caveat about ME3's ending). I felt that ME1 and 2 were largely good, even with the minor plot holes.

I didn't like the whole forrunner plot in Halo 4. The captain prior to Laskey is grotesquely incompetent, and most of the other characters exhibit zero of the usual military skill and bearing that are evident in prior installments. Likewise the ME series really doesn't have the military bearing that Halo or most military SF has. About the only thing they did well was show Cortania going nuts.

Still, I remain tentatively hopeful that this will lead to some good stories in the future.

That sucks. This is garbage. This other thing is worthless. Such nuance. You're like a petulant 14-year-old regarding things you don't like. You can't restrain yourself from chiming in with the same dismissive sneering whenever the opportunity presents itself over and over (for years on end). There's a reason I don't hang out with petulant 14-year-olds.

I'd probably accept Orson Scott Card. I hated the Ender's Game series but what he wrote for Shadow Complex was pretty good.

I liked all of the Ender's Game stuff, and Shadow Complex, too. I also liked Advent Rising and am still patiently waiting for a sequel. ):

I'm not entirely sure he'd be a good fit for Destiny, though. Plus there's the whole "he's a bigot" thing that Bungie would probably want to stay away from.

Mass Effect has a good story (again with the caveat about ME3's ending). I felt that ME1 and 2 were largely good, even with the minor plot holes.

Yeah, but he didn't work on those, only the new one that's not out yet.

I didn't like the whole forrunner plot in Halo 4. The captain prior to Laskey is grotesquely incompetent, and most of the other characters exhibit zero of the usual military skill and bearing that are evident in prior installments. Likewise the ME series really doesn't have the military bearing that Halo or most military SF has. About the only thing they did well was show Cortania going nuts.

To be fair, Destiny doesn't really do anything with military skill and bearing. The "military" are a bunch of childish Guardians that dance after killing their enemies and race around on Sparrows. I don't think Destiny will ever be the military sci-fi that Halo was (I actually hope it doesn't become that).

Still, I remain tentatively hopeful that this will lead to some good stories in the future.

I sure hope so!

I'd probably accept Orson Scott Card. I hated the Ender's Game series but what he wrote for Shadow Complex was pretty good.

I liked all of the Ender's Game stuff, and Shadow Complex, too. I also liked Advent Rising and am still patiently waiting for a sequel. ):

I really enjoyed the story & setup of Advent Rising, I liked the art direction, I thought the music was beautiful, I liked the fact that they tried to make your choices matter (execution on that was fair), the gameplay was just alright. Just imagine how that game would have been received if the gameplay had been near as good as it should have been (I'm imagining something a bit more like Destiny) and if they had the time they needed to polish the game. One of my old TFC clan mates actually worked on the game, I should look him up & pick his brain about what went down with the development of that game.

I would love to see the story continue. I had hoped that Card would have taken the story & continued it in print, but AFAIK that never happened. I fear that Advent Rising 2 is dead just like NOLF is dead. (To be honest NOLF being dead makes me much sadder).

There are two stories in Halo 4. There's the emotional character story between the Chief and Cortana, and then there's the rather mindless action story that involves nukes and Forerunner generals and enslaved souls bound into techno-thralls.

I'm so glad that you explicitly said this. I'll add that it's possible to really like one of the stories and not care for the other.

Of the several responses here, this is the one that is the most true from my experience, but I've also been in the room with the writers when levels were cut and the results were still better than the mishmash Destiny got.

The fact is that, if you look at the writing purely on a one mission at a time basis, you'll find that it's still crap. Almost no information is conveyed to the player, and the information that is conveyed is almost totally without context (and often just about how you have to open more doors). Then consider that a bunch of the script is actually really poor jokes that don't land, and it's even more disappointing. My most fun script moments from year one were all making fun of Peter Dinklage's lines. When you open the Prison of Elders and he says something like "remember, this was your idea"... No it wasn't! Not even a little bit.

Then the information between missions is downright contradictory. There are loads of moments where you're told you'll find out later and don't, or told you'll come back when you're ready and come back on the very next mission without anything changing for you, or told we don't know anything about the enemy forces only to be immediately told to kill a specific person because he's the leader of that enemy.

As with the tools design, the bugs, the balance in pvp, the poor level design, and the many other issues in the game, the lack of quality writing tells me that there was a major leadership and organizational problem at Bungie when vanilla Destiny was made. TTK was great until the endgame, so I'm hopeful those issues have been ironed out (though communication is still pretty poor), but those original issues are all still in the game (even after re-recording the ghost dialogue, which is pretty much unprecedented, they didn't re-write the nonsensical parts... whaaaaat) and have never, near as I can tell, been publically addressed.

For a studio whose writing I have loved over the years, Destiny really, really underdelivered, and for a game that got the most advertising hype of any game I can remember, it belly flopped. And I still play it. Damn all the problems, that core gunplay and movement is sooooo good. Seeing the potential the game has and how it failed to live up to that makes me upset (clearly). :(

I wrote a very large chunk of the D1 Grimoire and in-game flavor text, as well as a large contribution to Dark/HoW and all of the Books of Sorrow, and I really think I'd have suffered writing game script.

Grimoire cards were a case of 'we'll lock you in this room, brainstorm and jam and write whatever you want, your boss will review it with his expert eyes and then it's going to translation'. (This process was intense and fun and probably the best time I ever had at Bungie.) Voiced game script is a highly political process, with review from studio leads, multiple rewrites, designer feedback, and, of course, the need to meet the actor's schedules.

Note that the Grimoire cards are pretty stylistically and thematically diverse. You've got talk about mind forking, concatenated simulations, military flash traffic, Cormac McCarthy stylings...how much of this would survive the process of becoming a game script, which needs (for very good reason) to be accessible to a broad audience?

Well, you did a great job with the Grimoires! Thank you!

As for becoming a game script, it seems to me that Bungie handles scripts in a way that I'm not used to from my time at other companies. Past places I've worked we just slap in placeholder dialogue (usually the devs record it themselves) until the game is in beta and then record the real stuff. It sounds like Bungie recorded dialogue years before the game was set to release and then found they were backed into a corner by it? I'd love to know if the original script made more sense than what was left.

Anyway, there's a really means for making the game script accessible, and that's having a character who doesn't know what everyone else is talking about ask questions like "can you say that again in normal English?" And Destiny has a perfect hook for that, because you just came back from the dead after hundreds of years! Of *course* you have questions! Except you don't. You don't even talk most of the time. It's so sad. I wonder if the main character is brain damaged?

It's a moot point since none of the D1 Grimoire or script team is still at Bungie, but while I'd love to (and hope to) keep writing Grimoire cards, I think they're much more like Marathon terminals than they are like game script proper.

Sorry to hear that you and the others aren't there. I think the Marathon terminals *were* the game script for Marathon (and I loved them).

The current Bungie writing team is full of super cool talent and I'm excited to read their cards!

This is good to hear :)

Of the several responses here, this is the one that is the most true from my experience, but I've also been in the room with the writers when levels were cut and the results were still better than the mishmash Destiny got.

The fact is that, if you look at the writing purely on a one mission at a time basis, you'll find that it's still crap. Almost no information is conveyed to the player, and the information that is conveyed is almost totally without context (and often just about how you have to open more doors). Then consider that a bunch of the script is actually really poor jokes that don't land, and it's even more disappointing. My most fun script moments from year one were all making fun of Peter Dinklage's lines. When you open the Prison of Elders and he says something like "remember, this was your idea"... No it wasn't! Not even a little bit.

Then the information between missions is downright contradictory. There are loads of moments where you're told you'll find out later and don't, or told you'll come back when you're ready and come back on the very next mission without anything changing for you, or told we don't know anything about the enemy forces only to be immediately told to kill a specific person because he's the leader of that enemy.

As with the tools design, the bugs, the balance in pvp, the poor level design, and the many other issues in the game, the lack of quality writing tells me that there was a major leadership and organizational problem at Bungie when vanilla Destiny was made. TTK was great until the endgame, so I'm hopeful those issues have been ironed out (though communication is still pretty poor), but those original issues are all still in the game (even after re-recording the ghost dialogue, which is pretty much unprecedented, they didn't re-write the nonsensical parts... whaaaaat) and have never, near as I can tell, been publically addressed.

For a studio whose writing I have loved over the years, Destiny really, really underdelivered, and for a game that got the most advertising hype of any game I can remember, it belly flopped. And I still play it. Damn all the problems, that core gunplay and movement is sooooo good. Seeing the potential the game has and how it failed to live up to that makes me upset (clearly). :(

I won't defend Destiny's Y1 story either, but I'll add that the Grimoire gave me a ton of hope. Destiny did indeed have a rich and deep universe. I know you've praised the cards so again I'm not disagreeing with you. I remember Xenos telling me that he read every Grimoire card as they unlocked, and that gave him a completely different experience compared to what he heard about from other players. Wish I had done that. I'll definitely do that for Destiny 2.

As for becoming a game script, it seems to me that Bungie handles scripts in a way that I'm not used to from my time at other companies. Past places I've worked we just slap in placeholder dialogue (usually the devs record it themselves) until the game is in beta and then record the real stuff. It sounds like Bungie recorded dialogue years before the game was set to release and then found they were backed into a corner by it? I'd love to know if the original script made more sense than what was left.

I don't know that this is how they did it, but maybe they did. I'm thinking about the voice for the Crow (Queen's Brother) that we heard in the "official destiny gameplay reveal" trailer. "Why is the city breathing down my neck." It certainly didn't sound final to me, it sounded like they quickly put an employee's voice through a filter. >shrugs< Who knows?

As for becoming a game script, it seems to me that Bungie handles scripts in a way that I'm not used to from my time at other companies. Past places I've worked we just slap in placeholder dialogue (usually the devs record it themselves) until the game is in beta and then record the real stuff. It sounds like Bungie recorded dialogue years before the game was set to release and then found they were backed into a corner by it? I'd love to know if the original script made more sense than what was left.

I don't know that this is how they did it, but maybe they did. I'm thinking about the voice for the Crow (Queen's Brother) that we heard in the "official destiny gameplay reveal" trailer. "Why is the city breathing down my neck." It certainly didn't sound final to me, it sounded like they quickly put an employee's voice through a filter. >shrugs< Who knows?

I don't remember that one, but I do remember "Out here in the wild, this *is* how we talk" and that sounded pretty final.

Of the several responses here, this is the one that is the most true from my experience, but I've also been in the room with the writers when levels were cut and the results were still better than the mishmash Destiny got.

The fact is that, if you look at the writing purely on a one mission at a time basis, you'll find that it's still crap. Almost no information is conveyed to the player, and the information that is conveyed is almost totally without context (and often just about how you have to open more doors). Then consider that a bunch of the script is actually really poor jokes that don't land, and it's even more disappointing. My most fun script moments from year one were all making fun of Peter Dinklage's lines. When you open the Prison of Elders and he says something like "remember, this was your idea"... No it wasn't! Not even a little bit.

Then the information between missions is downright contradictory. There are loads of moments where you're told you'll find out later and don't, or told you'll come back when you're ready and come back on the very next mission without anything changing for you, or told we don't know anything about the enemy forces only to be immediately told to kill a specific person because he's the leader of that enemy.

As with the tools design, the bugs, the balance in pvp, the poor level design, and the many other issues in the game, the lack of quality writing tells me that there was a major leadership and organizational problem at Bungie when vanilla Destiny was made. TTK was great until the endgame, so I'm hopeful those issues have been ironed out (though communication is still pretty poor), but those original issues are all still in the game (even after re-recording the ghost dialogue, which is pretty much unprecedented, they didn't re-write the nonsensical parts... whaaaaat) and have never, near as I can tell, been publically addressed.

For a studio whose writing I have loved over the years, Destiny really, really underdelivered, and for a game that got the most advertising hype of any game I can remember, it belly flopped. And I still play it. Damn all the problems, that core gunplay and movement is sooooo good. Seeing the potential the game has and how it failed to live up to that makes me upset (clearly). :(

I won't defend Destiny's Y1 story either, but I'll add that the Grimoire gave me a ton of hope. Destiny did indeed have a rich and deep universe. I know you've praised the cards so again I'm not disagreeing with you. I remember Xenos telling me that he read every Grimoire card as they unlocked, and that gave him a completely different experience compared to what he heard about from other players. Wish I had done that. I'll definitely do that for Destiny 2.

I wish I'd done that too. I didn't read any cards until I had 20 or so unlocked and then I was like, "Why isn't this in the game??? The game would be SO MUCH BETTER! Arrrgghh!"

Let's hope Destiny 2 incorporates the lore and story in a better way that doesn't require you to put down the controller in order to enjoy it.

That said, I've got $12 in Amazon promotional credit for ebooks. Can you suggest me a novel that would appeal to a person who enjoys his short stories, but isn't a fan per se?

My first thought was Hearts in Atlantis. It consists of two novellas, and then three short stories, but they are all connected to some extent.

The Dead Zone and Firestarter are probably also good choices if you'd prefer a traditional full novel.

You know, it's weird. I'm not a Stephen King fan, but I've read more of him than a lot of authors I really like. I read Dreamcatcher, The Green Mile, The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon, From a Buick 8, Skeleton Crew, Night Shift, Nightmares & Dreamscapes, and Just After Sunset. I read these because over the years I've found them at the Salvation Army for like 20 cents and that's how I can buy books.

His novels I've read are completely forgettable, but some short stories stick with me, like The Jaunt, or whatever the one is where he's a doctor and slowly eats himself as he goes crazy and it ends with "they taste just like ladyfingers" or something.

Anyway, I've never read a Stephen King short story I wasn't pleased with, but I've never really enjoyed the novels I read from him, and never go out of my way for more of his books or stories. People always talk about this Maine crap he's into or some kind of shared universe, but I never noticed.

That said, I've got $12 in Amazon promotional credit for ebooks. Can you suggest me a novel that would appeal to a person who enjoys his short stories, but isn't a fan per se?

I found Misery to be pretty haunting. Rose Madder stuck with me, too. (I think it's because both are more psychologically scary than supernaturally scary. He does both pretty well, but I'll have to agree with you, some of the supernatural stuff, good while reading, fades pretty quickly.)

I loved Under The Dome, but I thought the ending was pretty weak. Same with 11/22/63 (LOVED THAT until the end). Needful Things was pretty cool - and it breaks the 'supernatural stories are forgettable' mold, a bit.

I devoured every Dark Tower book (interestingly enough, I read the first couple of chapters of the first one and got bored, and then came back to it many years later and was totally hooked), and wasn't disappointed at all by the ending. (Unfortunatley, there are more than half a dozen of them, so your $12 credit won't get you far.)

Have you considered a library card? You can check out ebooks these days... and they're free. And once you've set up an account, you don't even need to go in to get them, at most libraries. :)

- No text -

I'm not entirely sure he'd be a good fit for Destiny, though. Plus there's the whole "he's a bigot" thing that Bungie would probably want to stay away from.

The whole bigot thing is the usual internet posturing we've seen so much of lately rather then any real issue.

To be fair, Destiny doesn't really do anything with military skill and bearing. The "military" are a bunch of childish Guardians that dance after killing their enemies and race around on Sparrows. I don't think Destiny will ever be the military sci-fi that Halo was (I actually hope it doesn't become that).

This is true, Destiny is fundamentally different from the Halo series in that respect and would be able to get away with the different tone. It is much more Raiders of the Lost Ark then Uncommon Valor.

Especially that Atlantis one. Are there happy endings or endings where people just get murdered by some psychopath or something?

I'll try that date one. 11/22/63. I heard Under The Dome is just aliens. I probably know the ending to 11/22/63 as well. I assume JFK dies, if that's what it's about. If not, what a coincidental date!

I think I may be a time shifted you, at least in this very specific respect. I was loaned The Dark Tower books by a friend of mine last year and I couldn't get past the second chapter. I loaned him LOTR, and he got to The Council of Elrond (!) and quit. Maybe I'll try them again in the future. Stephen King is such a good writer I can't imagine they're bad books.
The other books you mentioned also sound interesting from the blurbs on them. I'm gonna put em on a list.

As for libraries, yes. I just lost my Phoenix, AZ library card rights. My city doesn't accept Post Office boxes as addresses, so I'm out library access. Meh. I don't read many books, watch movies, or listen to music anyway.

I loaned him LOTR, and he got to The Council of Elrond (!) and quit.

What? Why?

My favorite part of Lord of the Rings (both book and movies) is the beginning up to leaving Rivendell. I get that I'm pretty weird in that respect. But he made it through what most consider to be the slog, and was getting to when that actual action kicks off and things start to develop and then just drops it?

Yeah, Advent Rising is most certainly dead. ): Never say never, I guess, but I don't have any hope for that.

It's a shame, too, as it seems like it could have been a textbook example of the sequel coming back and knocking it out of the park and being drastically better than the original (like Assassin's Creed 2).

Learning from their mistakes and given enough time to really work things out, Advent Rising 2 could have been absolutely incredible. Even more so now with the advances in technology . . . man it could be so good!

The whole bigot thing is the usual internet posturing we've seen so much of lately rather then any real issue.

While I don't really thing it's the huge deal that the internet went crazy about when the Ender's Game movie was being advertised, it's still not irrelevant, and not something I can see many companies wanting to associate with.

I still like and read his works, but his opinions are more than a little disappointing, coming from the author of the Speaker for the Dead trilogy, which was basically entirely about different species being able to overcome their differences and live together in relative peace.

But I just can't get behind the whole nuke exploding right next to the Chief and Cortana "magically" saving him. As far as trying to make the Chief and Cortana like real people, I don't remember it feeling that way to me. To each his own though.

There are two stories in Halo 4. There's the emotional character story between the Chief and Cortana, and then there's the rather mindless action story that involves nukes and Forerunner generals and enslaved souls bound into techno-thralls.

Schlerf wrote the former, and had to fight hard to keep that plot from being left on the cutting room floor. I think he'll be a good match for Bungie.

source?
I'd like this to be true because I feel the same way
the implied romance was... not the right move to me, but most of their interaction was just two people who depended on each other
that said, I think the self-sacrifice-- by both of them-- was not a bad idea, it was just badly executed (I seriously wondered for a bit if they went completely off the rails and the Chief was in some kind of afterlife, because all I saw was him and some ethereal blue particle effect)

The fact is that, if you look at the writing purely on a one mission at a time basis, you'll find that it's still crap. Almost no information is conveyed to the player, and the information that is conveyed is almost totally without context (and often just about how you have to open more doors). Then consider that a bunch of the script is actually really poor jokes that don't land, and it's even more disappointing. My most fun script moments from year one were all making fun of Peter Dinklage's lines. When you open the Prison of Elders and he says something like "remember, this was your idea"... No it wasn't! Not even a little bit.

He says "Are you sure this is a good idea?", which I'm not sure is supposed to be a joke, it might be given that it's too late to not open it when he says that. Still, great to see you know a lot about what you're criticizing so heavily.

The fact is that, if you look at the writing purely on a one mission at a time basis, you'll find that it's still crap. Almost no information is conveyed to the player, and the information that is conveyed is almost totally without context (and often just about how you have to open more doors). Then consider that a bunch of the script is actually really poor jokes that don't land, and it's even more disappointing. My most fun script moments from year one were all making fun of Peter Dinklage's lines. When you open the Prison of Elders and he says something like "remember, this was your idea"... No it wasn't! Not even a little bit.

He says "Are you sure this is a good idea?", which I'm not sure is supposed to be a joke, it might be given that it's too late to not open it when he says that. Still, great to see you know a lot about what you're criticizing so heavily.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

But let's analyze the quote as you stated it:

"Are you sure this is a good idea?"

It's a bad line that is totally worthless in the game and serves literally no purpose. If it's supposed to be a joke, it's not funny, so it fails. If it's supposed to call back to something earlier, there was no something earlier where you had an idea, ever, in any mission in the game, let alone specifically about the prison of elders, so it fails. If it's supposed to be the ghost suddenly doubting the entire plan of the mission, why is it asking you if you think it's a good idea when it should be saying something "I'm not sure this is such a good idea. Zevala sure has a lot of faith in you," or something to that effect, which would show that there's some conflict (however minor) between zevala and your ghost, and would also show that you have faith in yourself as well (which, it would be implied, your ghost doesn't have), in which case the line would add something to the story. But it doesn't do that. As it stands there's no reason to have this line in the game, and the game would be the same game without it as it is with it.

It doesn't serve the story, the action, or the character development of the game and as a result I'd have cut it.

Is there a good opportunity here for character development, story progression, or action explanation? Yes, yes there is. Should there be a line here? Probably yes. But the line in place misses all three marks and goes in the giant pile of "missed opportunities" that Destiny had.

I'll add that I cannot easily think of similar missed opportunities in The Taken King. All of the truly egregious mistakes in writing which I can think of are from vanilla Destiny (and, to a lesser extent, CE and HoW, but those are mistakes by omission rather than outright bad writing). TTK really was solid as hell. I just wish the power of the missions and quests and raid carried through past the first raid completion to provide some better context for what's going on in the game world of the endgame.

The whole bigot thing is the usual internet posturing we've seen so much of lately rather then any real issue.

While I don't really thing it's the huge deal that the internet went crazy about when the Ender's Game movie was being advertised, it's still not irrelevant, and not something I can see many companies wanting to associate with.

I still like and read his works, but his opinions are more than a little disappointing, coming from the author of the Speaker for the Dead trilogy, which was basically entirely about different species being able to overcome their differences and live together in relative peace.

There's an old, old article somewhere on the Internet (I think written around 2000 and posted to the Internet or updated a few years later?) about someone who was a fan of his work and who had been abused as a child doing an interview with him and (among other things) talking about how that element relates to the Enderverse. They really connected, until it somehow slipped out what he thought of homosexuals (there might have been some sexism brought up too, I can't remember). The article writer went through... almost a crisis of faith or identity, because they couldn't like and respect their literary hero any more, but they couldn't stop liking his books, and eventually came around to the position that you can still like someone's work even if you don't like the author.

I think that's true, and that's how I try to treat some creators of things I like, but I also think for most people it feels like doublethink (understandably, because most artists put pieces of themselves into their work), and I don't begrudge anyone who doesn't want to put in the effort to have that state of mind. I also think some issues are too important to ignore (not to say that this is necessarily one of them, but they exist).

Personally I thought the Ender series (the main one, I haven't read the newer books) was full of peaks and troughs and I kind of wish I hadn't read it because it kept coming back to depressing things and that's what stays with me, but it was well executed and artistically done. I could see that talent applied differently leading to some really good stories.

He says "Are you sure this is a good idea?", which I'm not sure is supposed to be a joke, it might be given that it's too late to not open it when he says that. Still, great to see you know a lot about what you're criticizing so heavily.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

I'm not. I think you really dislike the game's original story but haven't looked at the details much (like how to spell "Zavala"), so some of what you dislike isn't just subjective, it doesn't mesh with the reality of how the game is.

But let's analyze the quote as you stated it:

"Are you sure this is a good idea?"

It's a bad line that is totally worthless in the game and serves literally no purpose. If it's supposed to be a joke, it's not funny, so it fails.

It's not funny to you.

If it's supposed to call back to something earlier, there was no something earlier where you had an idea, ever, in any mission in the game, let alone specifically about the prison of elders, so it fails. If it's supposed to be the ghost suddenly doubting the entire plan of the mission, why is it asking you if you think it's a good idea when it should be saying something "I'm not sure this is such a good idea. Zevala sure has a lot of faith in you," or something to that effect, which would show that there's some conflict (however minor) between zevala and your ghost, and would also show that you have faith in yourself as well (which, it would be implied, your ghost doesn't have), in which case the line would add something to the story. But it doesn't do that. As it stands there's no reason to have this line in the game, and the game would be the same game without it as it is with it.

The purpose it serves to me is mostly to let me give a snarky response to it (like "Why do you ask?" or "You wait until now to say this?" or "No, why?"). Maybe that was intended, maybe it wasn't, but I don't see anything wrong with it (in my obviously subjective view).

It doesn't serve the story, the action, or the character development of the game and as a result I'd have cut it.

If you want to get into story and character, it reinforces that our Ghost is kind of timid, which you can see elsewhere (the cutscenes before and during your first entry of the Reef come to mind). It's not a revelation or anything so it's not essential but good characterization is a lot of little moments, not one event saying "hey my personality is like this".

To be clear, I think there were a lot of missed or messed up opportunities in the writing of the base game, but I wouldn't say that's one of them.

Especially that Atlantis one. Are there happy endings or endings where people just get murdered by some psychopath or something?

I'm not really sure how to characterize the endings of those books without spoiling things. Things very rarely work out for everyone at the end of Stephen King novel.

As Wu suggested, 11/22/63 is pretty good, except it's 1100 pages long and fairly meandering, so I thought that might be a big leap from short stories.

Dolores Claiborne maybe? That one's a bit different from his normal fair. It also contains an extensive description of a malicious fecal distribution scene.

Dolores Claiborne maybe? That one's a bit different from his normal fair. It also contains an extensive description of a malicious fecal distribution scene.

lol - just looked that one up, and it was the book I was thinking of when I said 'Rose Madder'. My bad. ;)

I assume it has something to do with your constant going-ons about how Millennials are this or Millennials are that and making everything and anything about age. You've never directed that at me, but you sure love to do it. You should stop discriminating against people based on age and generation, especially when you largely incorrectly apply it. I guess I'm calling you a hypocrite. But hey, Millennials are entitled and whiny and petulant and such. And you just can't resist saying it whenever you get the chance, even without knowing the age of the people posting!

I assume it has something to do with your constant going-ons about how Millenials are this or Millenials are that and making everything and anything about age. You've never directed that at me, but you sure love to do it. You should stop discriminating against people based on age and generation, especially when you largely incorrectly apply it. I guess I'm calling you a hypocrite. But hey, Millenials are entitled and whiny and petulant and such. And you just can't resist saying it whenever you get the chance, even without knowing the age of the people posting!

And who raised the millennials? If they are such a terrible generation, that makes those who let it happen even worse.

So you're saying because I made a spelling mistake my opinion doesn't count? You're still engaging with me, so I assume something about my argument is striking a chord.

The purpose it serves to me is mostly to let me give a snarky response to it (like "Why do you ask?" or "You wait until now to say this?" or "No, why?"). Maybe that was intended, maybe it wasn't, but I don't see anything wrong with it (in my obviously subjective view).

This is exactly the point I was making and the entire reason I brought up the example in the first place. The funniest part of that line is me, at home, in my chair, making a funny quip to mock the ghost (and the awful writing of said ghost). I expect better from entertainment that I pay for.

It would be interesting if the entire game script was laid out such that there were awkward silences during which the player was assumed to be filling in dialogue for the main character, but that's not a trope of the game at all, so it doesn't seem to have been the intent in this location. Add to it that the main character does occasionally speak (the "little light" line is the funniest thing from vanilla Destiny, imo), and I take that as further evidence that the writers did not intend for us to fill in the chatter that is so painfully missing. Plus, you know, it would be super hard to code dynamic responses to the player's audio that made any semblance of sense.

You're both being "petulant" right now.

Be a bit more constructive with your dialogue instead of attacking each other's character and irrationality.
Focusing on the topic at hand, I think we've yet to see what's going on. A guy isn't hired because he sucks at everything that he does, so clearly someone up at the top has faith in this guy's work. At the same time, a bad job can give people valid reason to worry about that person's future efforts.

That said, I'm no fan of this guy's work, but Bungie has shown that they've definitely taken story/storytelling criticisms to heart, so let's wait and see what happens before we start crying about how much the sky is falling.

Be civil and reasonable, guys. <3

I'll get that one instead!

The council of Elrond is seriously my favourite part of any book. Ever. And it was just getting gold, for sure!

His rationale was he thought it was stupid the whole time, and when he realized he had to read through a story dump of stupid, he quit. Strange guy.

But I wasn't even mad! Or even heated. I was actually highly amused at the potential for failure vs. the lack of story. And Kermit. But all of your points are wonderful and valid! You're a true hero, Korny.

/endthread

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I assume it has something to do with your constant going-ons about how Millennials are this or Millennials are that and making everything and anything about age. You've never directed that at me, but you sure love to do it. You should stop discriminating against people based on age and generation, especially when you largely incorrectly apply it. I guess I'm calling you a hypocrite. But hey, Millennials are entitled and whiny and petulant and such. And you just can't resist saying it whenever you get the chance, even without knowing the age of the people posting!

I assume you're talking about this, the one time I've typed the word millennial on this forum or maybe anywhere else. I don't think about that label very often. (Had to double-check the spelling.) My cultural reference points are different from many others here, and I probably do highlight those too often (I apologize), but if I'm honest I probably feel self-conscious sometimes and other times maybe feel that the wizened aspect of my perspective is the only semi-unique thing I have to offer. The only real "old man" complaint I remember expressing here was about the casual crassness that seems more pervasive than it used to be. In general, though, millennials (most I've met have been gamers) impress the hell out of me. Many of you are smarter that I'll ever be, and kind-hearted to boot. You're much more accepting of older people than I think my generation was at your age. Some of my favorite people in the world hang out here and I call many of you friends and think of you as peers even though for some of you I'm old enough to be your dad.

Let's say you're right, though, Avateur, and you kids really bug me and I really want you to get off my lawn. Don't assume my comment to you had anything to do with that, your actual age, what generation you're a part of, or any sense of entitlement your generation may or may not have. My comment was about your negativity and yours alone.

The council of Elrond is seriously my favourite part of any book. Ever.

I think we may be in the minority, there. I've heard and read from many hardcore Tolkien fans that think the Council of Elrond is awful and that it is bad story telling and bad writing. I can see their point, in that it is basically the definition of telling and not showing, but I think it is a huge testament to the world that Tolkien built that I would not mind if that chapter was four times longer than it was.

World-building is a large part of why I enjoy the first half of Fellowship more than anything (I love every bit of it). There's something very comforting to me about reading about the Hobbits in the Shire, and their stay with Bombadil (and their stay in Rivendell).

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/05/26/this_chrome_extension_replaces_the_word_millennials_with_snake_peo...

The article writer went through... almost a crisis of faith or identity, because they couldn't like and respect their literary hero any more, but they couldn't stop liking his books, and eventually came around to the position that you can still like someone's work even if you don't like the author.

I think that's true, and that's how I try to treat some creators of things I like, but I also think for most people it feels like doublethink (understandably, because most artists put pieces of themselves into their work), and I don't begrudge anyone who doesn't want to put in the effort to have that state of mind. I also think some issues are too important to ignore (not to say that this is necessarily one of them, but they exist).

I think most people do OK with that. The related but different distinction I see people having trouble with - and OSC is an example of this - is thinking that you can like someone's work and still not want to patronize it.

I guess we both have some learning to do then, huh? Halo 4 popped up in Destiny, my negativity popped up, and like clockwork, you replied. Just like night follows day. Full circle. Now how about we go about listening to the hero of this adventure, Korny, and move on?

thinking that you can like someone's work and still not want to patronize it.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

thinking that you can like someone's work and still not want to patronize it.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

"I like this guy's books, but I don't want to give him my money."

I saw a lot of people who were suddenly okay with going to see the Ender's Game movie when they found out that OSC didn't get any royalties from it.

- No text -

Yep. Let me say that I didn't see Korny's reply until after my last reply was posted. Peace.

I think there is an attempt to conflate people's work with the opinion of that person. Ideas, and work, can and should stand on their own.

For example, I'm certain I can find someone at Bungie, perhaps several people, who hold political and ethical ideas different, even antithetical to my own. I can still look upon Destiny, Marathon, Myth, etc. as good games.

Likewise I can go to a bakery and buy a cake from someone who doesn't agree with my politics.

People are going to disagree with you. If you are in a place where everyone thinks and believes the same, with no discussion or debate, there is something wrong.

You are free not to associate with someone whom you disagree with, but I think people are really trying hard of late to make little intellectual walled gardens carefully weeded of all inconvenient thoughts and opinions, obsessing over everything that makes someone different.

Instead you should emphasize the things you have in common. I have gay cousins, but like Mr. Card I believe homosexuality is disordered. I can sit down with them and have dinner and we can talk about thinks without thinking that either side arguing in bad faith. My Aunt is a pacifist who hates guns and would see them all banned. I used to have a job test firing .50 cals. She get's exasperated with me at times but we still see each other over Christmas.

There are ideas that require confrontation, actions that must be answered, but science fiction books or video games seldom rise to that level.

I assume it has something to do with your constant going-ons about how Millennials are this or Millennials are that and making everything and anything about age. You've never directed that at me, but you sure love to do it. You should stop discriminating against people based on age and generation, especially when you largely incorrectly apply it. I guess I'm calling you a hypocrite. But hey, Millennials are entitled and whiny and petulant and such.

No, just you.

And you just can't resist saying it whenever you get the chance, even without knowing the age of the people posting!

He resisted doing that in the post you replied to.

So you're saying because I made a spelling mistake my opinion doesn't count?

No, that's pretty much incidental. Calling lines bad and not just saying "this conversation is bad" or "the line telling you about X is bad" but actually quoting them (or paraphrasing), and quoting them wrong (or not even paraphrasing accurately), implies you're more interested in calling the writing bad than actually looking at how it's bad. It would take maybe one minute to check if you got the line right, probably less time than it takes to type up one of your posts, but you didn't, because (theorizing here) you care about getting across how bad it is than why it's bad. That would be fine, except quoting things is generally what people do when they want to look well-informed and smart, and doing it about a given topic and getting it wrong makes it backfire and make you look like a bit of an ass when you talk to people who have their shit together with regard to that topic. Getting the same quote (about the Vault of Glass) wrong for more than a year (which I admittedly only know because at one point I went back and read a bunch of threads I missed), that takes it to a different level.

The purpose it serves to me is mostly to let me give a snarky response to it (like "Why do you ask?" or "You wait until now to say this?" or "No, why?"). Maybe that was intended, maybe it wasn't, but I don't see anything wrong with it (in my obviously subjective view).

This is exactly the point I was making and the entire reason I brought up the example in the first place. The funniest part of that line is me, at home, in my chair, making a funny quip to mock the ghost (and the awful writing of said ghost). I expect better from entertainment that I pay for.

That's fine.

It would be interesting if the entire game script was laid out such that there were awkward silences during which the player was assumed to be filling in dialogue for the main character, but that's not a trope of the game at all, so it doesn't seem to have been the intent in this location. Add to it that the main character does occasionally speak (the "little light" line is the funniest thing from vanilla Destiny, imo), and I take that as further evidence that the writers did not intend for us to fill in the chatter that is so painfully missing. Plus, you know, it would be super hard to code dynamic responses to the player's audio that made any semblance of sense.

Again, that's what I like about it, I'm not saying it's intentional or easily reproducible.
I notice you don't address how it characterizes your Ghost.

Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic.

I looked it up:

a person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial.

That's not even close to what I just assumed it meant, which was more along the lines someone being apologetic for something. I've always been a bit sore about the term, and never really understood why it was thrown around so much. Like, I'm not apologizing for anything, I just happen to like it! Why should I apologize?

TL;DR--I'm an idiot!

I always thought that was weird too but it has a lot more to do with the ancient meaning of the word ἀπολογία than the modern word apology.

apologia combines apo (from) and logos (logic/reason). The formal use of the term refered to a defense in a court, or reasoned argument. Hence, one who makes an apology is an apologist. The two terms have since diverged in meaning.

I would just like to let you know that I wasn't referring to you at all with that post. Your post came shortly after mine, we had a nice discussion, and that could have been it. Instead, Korny became the hero we all need and deserve. And Vagueness still doesn't understand sarcasm or irony. But aside from that, we're all good, and I appreciated your replies.

I would just like to let you know that I wasn't referring to you at all with that post. Your post came shortly after mine, we had a nice discussion, and that could have been it. Instead, Korny became the hero we all need and deserve. And Vagueness still doesn't understand sarcasm or irony. But aside from that, we're all good, and I appreciated your replies.

Oh no worries!

I know reading tone on the internet is hard, and it's easy to interpret everything in the worst possible way. This forum is basically the only place where I don't instinctively do that and I give people the benefit of the doubt. If something can be taken in a playful-sarcastic light or a bitchy-sarcastic light, I assume the former on this forum. It's served me well enough so far.

(:

It wouldn't have been the first time I've been called a 343i apologist, so even if you were referring to me, it wouldn't have bothered me. It just doesn't mean what I thought! /:

I would just like to let you know that I wasn't referring to you at all with that post. Your post came shortly after mine, we had a nice discussion, and that could have been it. Instead, Korny became the hero we all need and deserve. And Vagueness still doesn't understand sarcasm or irony. But aside from that, we're all good, and I appreciated your replies.

So now you're going to say it was all sarcasm or irony, after you defended your statements? I think you're the one that doesn't understand. If it's a joke you should just let it stand on its own. If it's not meant seriously, that's probably the best defense of it.

Not saying that in the slightest. Not even an ounce. And no sarcasm here. You don't even get what I'm referencing. I think you would do well to listen to KornyHero, too, and just let it go. Or you know what, I will! Have fun trying to figure it out, I guess.

Not saying that in the slightest. Not even an ounce. And no sarcasm here. You don't even get what I'm referencing. I think you would do well to listen to KornyHero, too, and just let it go. Or you know what, I will! Have fun trying to figure it out, I guess.

Just please stop doing this whole "I can act like a douche if I also act like I'm all smiles and rainbows" thing, it makes you come off as an even bigger douche.