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Joystiq Interview with Chris Butcher

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, June 18, 2013, 17:23 (4194 days ago)

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/06/18/destinys-online-battlegrounds-explained-by-bungie/

He spends a lot of time talking about seamless matchmaking, in part because the interviewer doesn't seem to get it.

He also talks about the new dev tools, and the lighting. He's excited about the latter, too!

Kermit

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Duh, should've check the FP. Sorry.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, June 18, 2013, 17:55 (4194 days ago) @ Kermit

- No text -

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Joystiq Interview with Chris Butcher

by ncsuDuncan @, Tuesday, June 18, 2013, 19:40 (4194 days ago) @ Kermit

Heh, poor Chris has to keep answering the same question over and over about Destiny's genre and social aspects. Seems like the interviewer really just wanted him to say "MMO".

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Joystiq Interview with Chris Butcher

by TTL Demag0gue ⌂ @, Within the shadow of the Traveler, Tuesday, June 18, 2013, 20:08 (4194 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan

Heh, poor Chris has to keep answering the same question over and over about Destiny's genre and social aspects. Seems like the interviewer really just wanted him to say "MMO".

I think everyone wants him to say "MMO." Seems like the entire industry is struggling with the fact that Destiny is a genre-straddling title.

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Joystiq Interview with Chris Butcher

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Tuesday, June 18, 2013, 20:39 (4194 days ago) @ TTL Demag0gue

Heh, poor Chris has to keep answering the same question over and over about Destiny's genre and social aspects. Seems like the interviewer really just wanted him to say "MMO".


I think everyone wants him to say "MMO." Seems like the entire industry is struggling with the fact that Destiny is a genre-straddling title.

We should just name this new genre after Destiny for all the future copycats. :)

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Joystiq Interview with Chris Butcher

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Tuesday, June 18, 2013, 20:43 (4194 days ago) @ Leviathan

I noticed the Bungie interviewees didn't use Shared World Shooter very often, I think they REALLY wanted to focus how it is a great action packed FPS.

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Joystiq Interview with Chris Butcher

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 05:38 (4193 days ago) @ Xenos
edited by Kermit, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 05:49

I noticed the Bungie interviewees didn't use Shared World Shooter very often, I think they REALLY wanted to focus how it is a great action packed FPS.

Yeah, for this particular reveal you're probably right. I, however, think "shared world shooter" is a perfectly fine way to describe the genre (I think) they're trying to create.

I bristled when the interviewer casually said "other MMOs." If I were Butcher I might not have been able to resist correcting him on that point, but then again, being too defensive about it might be bad, too.

EDIT: I'm also a little bugged by the venturebeat article that insists on judging it as a MMO.

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Joystiq Interview with Chris Butcher

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 07:04 (4193 days ago) @ Kermit

I noticed the Bungie interviewees didn't use Shared World Shooter very often, I think they REALLY wanted to focus how it is a great action packed FPS.


Yeah, for this particular reveal you're probably right. I, however, think "shared world shooter" is a perfectly fine way to describe the genre (I think) they're trying to create.

I bristled when the interviewer casually said "other MMOs." If I were Butcher I might not have been able to resist correcting him on that point, but then again, being too defensive about it might be bad, too.

EDIT: I'm also a little bugged by the venturebeat article that insists on judging it as a MMO.

Yeah I think that most people aren't going to get it until it comes out. And I'm sure there will be that small percentage that will refuse to give up on the thought that it's not an MMO. For me as soon as I saw the gameplay reveal I understood why they aren't calling it an MMO.

Joystiq Interview with Chris Butcher

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 09:16 (4193 days ago) @ Xenos

I noticed the Bungie interviewees didn't use Shared World Shooter very often, I think they REALLY wanted to focus how it is a great action packed FPS.

This. They made it clear, both publicly and privately, that the focus of the E3 reveal was the FPS gameplay - that's what they were talking about, that's what they were focusing on, that was ALL they wanted to expound on, for now. The 'shared' part will get its own attention down the road - E3 was about the shooting.

I think that bugs folks that want to know everything right now. :)

(I know it bugged me, a little bit - I didn't doubt for a second that the shooter part was gonna be fun. I've been loving Bungie shooters since 1993. I wanted to know more about the shared part - and they aren't talking. Yet. I'll live. And so will all the other impatient people. :) )

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Joystiq Interview with Chris Butcher

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 09:22 (4193 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I'll live. And so will all the other impatient people. :) )

You're going to feel really bad when you find out about the Bungie fan who died from anticipation. :)

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Joystiq Interview with Chris Butcher

by TTL Demag0gue ⌂ @, Within the shadow of the Traveler, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 09:46 (4193 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I just keep repeating the same mantra to myself over and over:

"Pre-alpha. Pre-alpha. Pre-alpha."

It helps.

A little. :)

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Joystiq Interview with Chris Butcher

by zumphry ⌂ @, Tuesday, June 18, 2013, 20:52 (4194 days ago) @ TTL Demag0gue

Heh, poor Chris has to keep answering the same question over and over about Destiny's genre and social aspects. Seems like the interviewer really just wanted him to say "MMO".


I think everyone wants him to say "MMO." Seems like the entire industry is struggling with the fact that Destiny is a genre-straddling title.

INT. ACTIVISION-BLIZZARD PRESS ROOM - MORNING

CHRIS BUTCHER is being interviewed by JOYSTIQ.

CHRIS BUTCHER
(New Zealand accent)
UGH. FINE. You want us to call DESTINY a "MMO"? FINE. Have fun typing "PMMOFPSRPAG" in every one of your bloody articles, you wankers!

CHRIS BUTCHER then sics RASPY, a stuffed tiger that has come to live through SPACE MAGIC!!!1!!, on JOYSTIQ.

A year later, one of the few surviving JOYSTIQ employees gives DESTINY a 10/10 and calls it "the CITIZEN KANE of video games."

Fade to black.

im so sorry

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Citizen Kane?

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Tuesday, June 18, 2013, 21:29 (4194 days ago) @ zumphry

While an important film in film history, I don't really want Destiny compared to Citizen Kane, haha.

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Citizen Kane?

by zumphry ⌂ @, Tuesday, June 18, 2013, 22:29 (4194 days ago) @ Xenos

While an important film in film history, I don't really want Destiny compared to Citizen Kane, haha.

http://thecitizenkaneofvideogames.tumblr.com/

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Well now I just feel unhip! :)

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Tuesday, June 18, 2013, 22:30 (4194 days ago) @ zumphry

- No text -

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Better to be unhip than to be a hipster.

by zumphry ⌂ @, Tuesday, June 18, 2013, 22:43 (4194 days ago) @ Xenos

EDITOR'S NOTE: Hipsters are senior citizens with replaced hips.

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Better to be unhip than to be a hipster.

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Tuesday, June 18, 2013, 23:24 (4194 days ago) @ zumphry

EDITOR'S NOTE: Hipsters are senior citizens with replaced hips.

They do not! Leonard could probably kick your ass!

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Citizen Kane?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 11:20 (4193 days ago) @ zumphry

While an important film in film history, I don't really want Destiny compared to Citizen Kane, haha.


http://thecitizenkaneofvideogames.tumblr.com/

LOL at Bioshock Infinite!

There's only a few legitimate answers to "Gaming's Citizen Kane".

Deus Ex.
Doom.
Super Mario Brothers.
Street Fighter 2.
Herzog Zwei.
Ultima Online.
Contra.

Didn't see any of those on the list.

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Contra? SMB?

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 11:21 (4193 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Care to elaborate?

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Contra? SMB?

by SonofMacPhisto @, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 15:14 (4193 days ago) @ ZackDark

Contra: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_(video_game)

SMB = Super Mario Brothers

Contra was amazing. Once, I had a no death run.

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???

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 15:24 (4193 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

I know what they are...

I'm asking why they'd be the "Citizen Kane of Video Games"

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???

by SonofMacPhisto @, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 16:30 (4193 days ago) @ ZackDark

Lol. There I go taking people literally again.

I guess Contra and SMB just have a pure form about them. They are perfect games, distilled to the player mastering the mechanics.

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Contra? SMB?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, June 20, 2013, 08:19 (4192 days ago) @ ZackDark

Care to elaborate?

Why was Citizen Kane important? It was technologically innovative, with its amazing blocking, matte photography, deep focus photography and lighting, expanding what the medium could do (also it was good).

Which games offer huge advances in technical technique that can be used to expand what types of games you play, while also being very good?

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Contra? SMB?

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, June 20, 2013, 08:41 (4192 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Never thought of them as firsts.

Guess I need to improve my gaming history.

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Contra? SMB?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, June 20, 2013, 09:28 (4192 days ago) @ ZackDark

Never thought of them as firsts.

Guess I need to improve my gaming history.

Many are not firsts, but many are significant in their advancement of their genres.

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Contra? SMB?

by SonofMacPhisto @, Thursday, June 20, 2013, 09:53 (4192 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Ha - much better said than my crap.

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Citizen Kane?

by RaichuKFM @, Northeastern Ohio, Thursday, June 20, 2013, 11:47 (4192 days ago) @ Cody Miller

We all know Citizen Kane is merely the Duck Hunt of movies.

Joystiq Interview with Chris Butcher

by petetheduck, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 03:45 (4193 days ago) @ Kermit

Wow, that's the worst interview I've seen.

The body language of the interviewer alone made me cringe.

“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by kapowaz, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 09:18 (4193 days ago) @ petetheduck

Despite us now having seen in-game footage and having had all these interviews, I still feel like Bungie are being evasive when it comes to answering questions. The MMO question keeps coming up, but I find their answers dissatisfying. Yes, it's a shooter, but that isn't mutually exclusive with the MMO genre. I get the feeling they're avoiding that key abbreviation simply because they're worried it'll scare some players off. That might be a legitimate concern, but it still feels like they're intentionally not discussing certain key gameplay mechanics that people obviously want to know about.

This is what I talked about before when it comes to having a dialogue with Bungie. We'd like to understand the game better. Sure, we're going to pore over every screenshot and video and try and glean what we can from that, but from the horse's mouth is obviously better. Yes, some things are going to change, some features aren't going to make the cut. But I still feel there's scope for Bungie to communicate a little more candidly about just how this game will work.

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“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 10:05 (4193 days ago) @ kapowaz

Saying "it's an MMO shooter" or a "shared world shooter" wouldn't really help though.

Yeah I'd love to know more about how the matching system works, how competitive play will interact with story play.

However I can understand them wanting to get out there and show a really solid version of a public event and point at it and say "THAT is what we're going for".

It's solid and gives us all sorts of solid information to process.

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“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by JDQuackers ⌂ @, McMurray, PA, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 10:08 (4193 days ago) @ kapowaz

But I still feel there's scope for Bungie to communicate a little more candidly about just how this game will work.

What if some of those details are still in flux, though? Perhaps they're simply _not ready_ to flesh out the scope of how those aspects will work because they're still trying to fine-tune them or figure out how achievable they are with the various levels of hardware and infrastructure that they're working with.

“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by kapowaz, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 15:17 (4193 days ago) @ JDQuackers

What if some of those details are still in flux, though? Perhaps they're simply _not ready_ to flesh out the scope of how those aspects will work because they're still trying to fine-tune them or figure out how achievable they are with the various levels of hardware and infrastructure that they're working with.

I have to imagine a lot of it still is in flux, but they did just show a demo of actual gameplay. I don't think it's unreasonable for them to explain (for example) how damage works if you're able to upgrade your weaponry. What made the Halo games challenging was being able to defeat tricky encounters with the tools at hand. If the tools themselves can be upgraded then it suggests one day a load of the content will be trivialised. Maybe that's necessary if you have a moving conveyor belt of content with progressively harder enemies, but I'd still like to know that skill is going to count. Well, I'm sure it will, but I'd like to know how.

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“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 10:25 (4193 days ago) @ kapowaz

Despite us now having seen in-game footage and having had all these interviews, I still feel like Bungie are being evasive when it comes to answering questions. The MMO question keeps coming up, but I find their answers dissatisfying. Yes, it's a shooter, but that isn't mutually exclusive with the MMO genre. I get the feeling they're avoiding that key abbreviation simply because they're worried it'll scare some players off. That might be a legitimate concern, but it still feels like they're intentionally not discussing certain key gameplay mechanics that people obviously want to know about.

This is what I talked about before when it comes to having a dialogue with Bungie. We'd like to understand the game better. Sure, we're going to pore over every screenshot and video and try and glean what we can from that, but from the horse's mouth is obviously better. Yes, some things are going to change, some features aren't going to make the cut. But I still feel there's scope for Bungie to communicate a little more candidly about just how this game will work.

Yeah, well. In 2000 describing a top-notch shooter on a console with a two-weapon limitation turned quite a few people away. That's to say that often playing the game is even better than hearing something from the horse's mouth.

It could be that they don't want to scare people away by using "MMO," but it could be (and I believe it is the case) that they see MMO as an inaccurate descriptor. That's a pretty good reason not to use it, too.

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“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by SonofMacPhisto @, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 12:11 (4193 days ago) @ Kermit

It could be that they don't want to scare people away by using "MMO," but it could be (and I believe it is the case) that they see MMO as an inaccurate descriptor. That's a pretty good reason not to use it, too.

BUT NEW PARADIGMS ARE SCARY.

“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by kapowaz, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 15:22 (4193 days ago) @ Kermit

It could be that they don't want to scare people away by using "MMO," but it could be (and I believe it is the case) that they see MMO as an inaccurate descriptor. That's a pretty good reason not to use it, too.

I guess this depends heavily on how much you believe the term MMO has been subverted to mean ‘gameplay like World of Warcraft‘; it was probably inevitable after half a decade of companies throwing money at trying to defeat the 800lb gorilla in the room that people could get tunnel vision. But to me MMO is still a term grounded in scale; it has thousands of simultaneous players, of whom you could bump into dozens at a time, the world it takes place in is shared between you all, and the persistence of that world is orchestrated through online play.

These things sound very much like Destiny to me.

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“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 11:09 (4193 days ago) @ kapowaz

I think their relative unease with the word 'MMO' is simply because the amount of players you will be able to interact with at any given time will be way too few to be called 'massive multiplayer' and get away with it.

As far as I gathered, it is a Borderlands-like FPS with a seamless Journey-like matchmaking.

“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by kapowaz, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 15:24 (4193 days ago) @ ZackDark

I think their relative unease with the word 'MMO' is simply because the amount of players you will be able to interact with at any given time will be way too few to be called 'massive multiplayer' and get away with it.

Their demo had 7 simultaneously involved players, and they gave no indication this was an upper limit. In WoW you can raid with as few as 10, so I'd say they're not very far (if at all) apart in that regard.

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“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 15:27 (4193 days ago) @ kapowaz

I wouldn't consider the raids the "massively multiplayer" part of.

Heck, Battlefield can handle 64 simultaneous players and isn't considered "massively multiplayer", why would 10 be?

“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by kapowaz, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 15:36 (4193 days ago) @ ZackDark

I wouldn't consider the raids the "massively multiplayer" part of.

Heck, Battlefield can handle 64 simultaneous players and isn't considered "massively multiplayer", why would 10 be?

Neither would I, really; I only mention it as you brought up the context for interacting with a number of players at a time, so comparing it to a raid seemed natural. No, what makes a game massively multiplayer to me is (as I wrote elsewhere) the shared persistent world inhabited by thousands of other players. It sounds as though Destiny will have that, but... Hey, this is exactly why I posted this! We need answers!

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“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 15:50 (4193 days ago) @ kapowaz

[W]hat makes a game massively multiplayer to me is (as I wrote elsewhere) the shared persistent world inhabited by thousands of other players. It sounds as though Destiny will have that, but... Hey, this is exactly why I posted this! We need answers!

Well what's interesting is they only sort of will all inhabit the same world. Someone could literally be exploring the exact spot of the world that you are and you wouldn't see them. I think this is one of the reasons they are differentiating. It's shared in a very limited way, only with who you want to when you are playing in private spaces, and matchmade people when you are in a public space. In an MMO there is never any matchmaking in the overall world, and usually there is only matchmaking for PvP.

It is a somewhat fine line, but I think there is definitely a line there.

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Exactly my thoughts

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 15:56 (4193 days ago) @ Xenos

- No text -

“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by kapowaz, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 21:29 (4193 days ago) @ Xenos

Well what's interesting is they only sort of will all inhabit the same world. Someone could literally be exploring the exact spot of the world that you are and you wouldn't see them. I think this is one of the reasons they are differentiating. It's shared in a very limited way, only with who you want to when you are playing in private spaces, and matchmade people when you are in a public space. In an MMO there is never any matchmaking in the overall world, and usually there is only matchmaking for PvP.

That used to be true, but since the Cataclysm expansion, Blizzard has implemented a whole bunch of new ways to ‘phase’ content, either to funnel a user down a single player experience in an area, or to share that area amongst many players (for example, bringing in players from other servers to keep a zone from being too sparsely-populated).

I've not seen any clear, unequivocal statements from Bungie on how they plan to delineate public from private playspace (saying you've entered a public event leads to some conclusions, but they have previously also mentioned ‘incidental multiplayer’ too). One thing they've not talked about yet is whether the game world will be ‘sharded’; will all players conceivably be able to match with all other players? If you create a character in Destiny on PS4 will you be able to play as that same character in Destiny for Xbox 360 (even if cross-platform matchmaking won't exist, this sort of thing is still of value)?

Oh look! More questions :-)

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“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 11:15 (4193 days ago) @ kapowaz

This is what I talked about before when it comes to having a dialogue with Bungie. We'd like to understand the game better. Sure, we're going to pore over every screenshot and video and try and glean what we can from that, but from the horse's mouth is obviously better. Yes, some things are going to change, some features aren't going to make the cut. But I still feel there's scope for Bungie to communicate a little more candidly about just how this game will work.

I'd say that if Bungie isn't being more descriptive about their game by the spring, then you can worry. For now, just chill for a bit and come back to Destiny closer to release…

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Did not expect that

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 11:20 (4193 days ago) @ Cody Miller

- No text -

“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by kapowaz, Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 15:25 (4193 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I'd say that if Bungie isn't being more descriptive about their game by the spring, then you can worry. For now, just chill for a bit and come back to Destiny closer to release…

Physician heal thyself!

“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by Claude Errera @, Thursday, June 20, 2013, 05:13 (4192 days ago) @ kapowaz

Bungie has decided on a reveal campaign where large information releases are focused on a specific topic. E3 was all about showing the FPS capabilities of the game.

My discussions with various members of the dev team showed that they feel that trying to explain too much about too many facets of Destiny at once might dilute any individual message - so the reveals are going to be structured this way for a while.

You might hate that - but don't take it as "they're afraid of the comparisons that will be made", it's just that the social aspects of the game were NOT the focus of the E3 reveal.

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“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, June 20, 2013, 10:38 (4192 days ago) @ Claude Errera

My discussions with various members of the dev team showed that they feel that trying to explain too much about too many facets of Destiny at once might dilute any individual message - so the reveals are going to be structured this way for a while.

That's interesting, because to me to most powerful, undiluted message you can send is one of "This is X type of game, and here's how it works" kind.

“So, the way we think about it is…[canned answer]”

by Claude Errera @, Thursday, June 20, 2013, 11:26 (4192 days ago) @ Cody Miller

My discussions with various members of the dev team showed that they feel that trying to explain too much about too many facets of Destiny at once might dilute any individual message - so the reveals are going to be structured this way for a while.


That's interesting, because to me to most powerful, undiluted message you can send is one of "This is X type of game, and here's how it works" kind.

I think we've established pretty firmly that your idea of 'best' and Bungie's idea of 'best' do not line up all the time. :)

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