So he can hopefully put them in a bag and see if Lord Saladin gets the message. I got probably 5-6 ghost shell drops this IB, zero rocket launchers, one sniper (with poor rolls) and some arms (at 288). I even got a 315 shell as one of my rank 5 packages, ugh.

There are so many garbage drops in this game that as you get close to max level the majority of the time even high rank stuff like IB, ToO and the raids can be garbage. Meanwhile I have a bunch of stuff in my vault I can't really use because I don't have the drops to infuse them to a competitive level.

There needs to be some sort of generic, "boost Item's light level by 5 points" drop that I can get each week.

I've had a similar experience.

And at least I could grind for glimmer. I don't know how I'm going to acquire all the legendary marks for the IB gear that I want :(

I've had a similar experience.

And at least I could grind for glimmer. I don't know how I'm going to acquire all the legendary marks for the IB gear that I want :(

Me, too.

For marks: The trials bounties give you 25 marks each for silver and gold tier, so if you play out 10 matches per character, there's 150 marks. I... don't recommend this, but it'll get you marks if you need marks.

There were too few ways to earn in that it just slowed down progression in the endgame. I like the current infuse system since you can level up any gear you like as long as it's legendary. It's a simple and easy to use system and Bungie is doing a good job of making sure that there are ways other than the raid to earn 320 gear to level up your other gear.

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I did not enjoy House of Wolves at all, but at least they lowered the amount of RNG needed to hit maximum light level to basically zero. Which is the opposite of how it is now, as I really enjoy the content in TTK, but the grind is out of control.

Edited to have the sentences actually make sense.*

There were too few ways to earn in that it just slowed down progression in the endgame. I like the current infuse system since you can level up any gear you like as long as it's legendary. It's a simple and easy to use system and Bungie is doing a good job of making sure that there are ways other than the raid to earn 320 gear to level up your other gear.

Current infusion system is pretty decent, although, in my opinion, it takes entirely too many infusions to get a piece a gear you like up to level.

The decision is do I keep this new drop that's a higher level light but who's stats aren't what I want, or do I infuse it into my current gear and get only 80% of the light increase and still have to pay other resources for the chance to do that?

As it stands I'm charged twice for infusing.
1- I lose out on possible max light (80% of your potential improvement).
2- I must also pay legendary marks & other materials.

I wish it were one or the other.

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There were too few ways to earn in that it just slowed down progression in the endgame. I like the current infuse system since you can level up any gear you like as long as it's legendary. It's a simple and easy to use system and Bungie is doing a good job of making sure that there are ways other than the raid to earn 320 gear to level up your other gear.

Etheric light was WAY easier to come across than 320 gear is today. I play trials every single weekend and have gone to the lighthouse a bunch of times, yet I haven't gotten a single piece of 320 gear from Trials of Osiris (technically, I've never gotten anything above 314 from Trials). Meanwhile, a single trip to the lighthouse in Year 1 would net you 3 pieces of Etheric Light. That's 3 pieces of legendary gear instantly boosted to top level. On the flip side, it would take 3 320 primaries to infuse a new vendor legendary up to max level.

Aside from Trials, there were guaranteed ways to earn etheric light in year 1. Iron Banner packages & Prison of Elders, level 3 packages from Veriks, plus the occasional nightfall drop. I had weeks where I earned 10 or more pieces of etheric light. I'd wager there isn't a single player in the world who has earned 10+ pieces of 320 gear in a single week since TTK launched. I doubt it's even possible.

Agree 100%

I think I only earned like 3 pieces of Etheric Light during the House of Wolves. To me the new system seems more accessible because you have Iron Banner, SRL, Crimson Doubles, Trials of Osiris which can all drop high-level gear up to 320. Anything between 300-320 feels more like etheric light to me than strictly 320 level because items normally drop at less than 300.

Agree 100%

This may be true if you care about hitting 320. I don't. If I've got stuff that's useful and I'm above 315, that's good enough for me. Granted, I have only one character who's there.

I think I only earned like 3 pieces of Etheric Light during the House of Wolves. To me the new system seems more accessible because you have Iron Banner, SRL, Crimson Doubles, Trials of Osiris which can all drop high-level gear up to 320. Anything between 300-320 feels more like etheric light to me than strictly 320 level because items normally drop at less than 300.

I'm with you here. I don't play Trials at all, so Etheric Light was really only available in Prison of Elders. (I suppose there were people who got it as Nightfall drops, but I never did.)

I didn't have high enough light levels to beat level 34 PoE (never mind Skolas himself!), so I rarely got any. I think I only got Etheric Light consistently when they added it to Iron Banner packages.

Contrast that with TTK, where you are GUARANTEED 320 drops if you play the challenge mode of the raid. Warpriest GUARANTEES you a 320 Heavy or Special weapon (or both!), and you can run it 3 times during that week. Golgoroth GUARANTEES you a 320 armor piece, and again, you can run it 3 times during its week. Oryx GUARANTEES you a 320 primary or a 320 helmet (though running ths successfully requires a much better team than either of the other two challenges).

At one point, I ran the Oryx Challenge 6 times in a 3 week period (ran it on a Tuesday x3, then ran it 3 weeks later on the same Tuesday, x3) and ended up with 6 320 primary weapons (and a bunch 310+ stuff at the same time). That's a lot of infusion fodder, in a 3 week period. :) During HoW, I had to wait at least a month between Iron Banners to even ATTEMPT multiple Etheric Light drops.

I think I only earned like 3 pieces of Etheric Light during the House of Wolves. To me the new system seems more accessible because you have Iron Banner, SRL, Crimson Doubles, Trials of Osiris which can all drop high-level gear up to 320. Anything between 300-320 feels more like etheric light to me than strictly 320 level because items normally drop at less than 300.

I'm totally with you, Blackt1g3r. I found etheric light painfully difficult to get (and for that reason painfully difficult to decide what to spend it on). I'm someone who found high-level PoE a real challenge and Trials impossible. (Doesn't Cruel have a room named after him in the Lighthouse at this point?) That left the infrequent Iron Banner and an occasional Nightfall drop.

320 stuff might be harder to get because of the randomness, and maybe I've learned not to be as obsessive in year 2, but I don't care about being at max light level and don't see myself hitting it. I see incremental progress a lot more frequently, though, and don't feel as frustrated.

Etheric light was WAY easier to come across than 320 gear is today. I play trials every single weekend and have gone to the lighthouse a bunch of times, yet I haven't gotten a single piece of 320 gear from Trials of Osiris (technically, I've never gotten anything above 314 from Trials). Meanwhile, a single trip to the lighthouse in Year 1 would net you 3 pieces of Etheric Light. That's 3 pieces of legendary gear instantly boosted to top level. On the flip side, it would take 3 320 primaries to infuse a new vendor legendary up to max level.

Aside from Trials, there were guaranteed ways to earn etheric light in year 1. Iron Banner packages & Prison of Elders, level 3 packages from Veriks, plus the occasional nightfall drop. I had weeks where I earned 10 or more pieces of etheric light. I'd wager there isn't a single player in the world who has earned 10+ pieces of 320 gear in a single week since TTK launched. I doubt it's even possible.

I just had a funny thought. It'd be fun to measure the grind necessary to reach max level & then correlate that to the time until the next expansion. Then with the next expansions we could (once we figure out how much grind is necessary) predict how long until we get meaningful new content.

I'll call this the Foom Hypothesis. (foom being moof backward, chosen for absolutely no reason).

I think I only earned like 3 pieces of Etheric Light during the House of Wolves. To me the new system seems more accessible because you have Iron Banner, SRL, Crimson Doubles, Trials of Osiris which can all drop high-level gear up to 320. Anything between 300-320 feels more like etheric light to me than strictly 320 level because items normally drop at less than 300.*

*emphasis mine

That's the differentiation between our experiences right there, I believe. If we consider "anything 300 and up" to be max level, then I agree with you. It seems easier to get level 300+ gear in TTK than it was to get Etheric Light in HoW. For some players (depending on the activities they like to do), being anywhere around level 300 is all they need.

For me, however, 300 is nowhere near high enough for the activities I enjoy. I spend most of my time playing Trials, Iron Banner, and Heroic King's Fall raids and challenges. That means I need gear in the 310-320 range, and lots of it, because I need to be able to spec out my characters in various different ways while still maintaining a high light level (at least 315ish).

For example, when I'm doing the Oryx heroic challenge mode, I want to make sure my characters can have extra heavy and sniper ammo, as well as bonus armor for my subclass. So when I'm acquiring new gear, there are some very specific perks I'm looking for on my boots, chest pieces, gloves, etc. When I finally do get the armor with the perks I want, they might be as low as 270 light level. That's a LONG WAY from usable for me. So I now need 3 or 4 pieces of 310-320 gear (of the same type) that I can use as infusion fodder just to bring it up to heroic raid level. That is a major pain in the butt compared to the 1 piece of Etheric Light I would have needed in the House of Wolves days.

Agree 100%

This may be true if you care about hitting 320.

Hence the first sentence in my post. Who cares about being above 300 if you aren't chasing 320?

Agree 100%

This may be true if you care about hitting 320.

Hence the first sentence in my post. Who cares about being above 300 if you aren't chasing 320?

Because 315 compared to 300 makes a huge difference in the hard mode raid?

What? You could have just run the 34 PoE as a 33 and hand picked the exact gun/armor piece you wanted at max level. Yeah, the challenge modes are a nice addition, but it's been 4 months and fewer than 2 people on my friends list are 320. Compared to it taking maybe one week to hit max level in HoW.

You guys are probably just playing high-level content more frequently now than you did previously.

Agree 100%

This may be true if you care about hitting 320.

Hence the first sentence in my post. Who cares about being above 300 if you aren't chasing 320?

Because 315 compared to 300 makes a huge difference in the hard mode raid?

That is what chasing 320 is for. The comparison was the grind to getting to max level and being relevant in end game content. It was much easier in House of Wolves by a huge margin if you participated in high-level activities.

I said above 300, because you can do everything at 300 except the highest level content. Same thing with being level 33 during HoW, as you could do everything except Skolas.

Agree 100%

This may be true if you care about hitting 320.

Hence the first sentence in my post. Who cares about being above 300 if you aren't chasing 320?

Because 315 compared to 300 makes a huge difference in the hard mode raid?

That is what chasing 320 is for.

The hard mode is for chasing 320? If that is what you mean then I disagree, cause I want to play and beat hard mode just for the challenge.

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What? You could have just run the 34 PoE as a 33 and hand picked the exact gun/armor piece you wanted at max level. Yeah, the challenge modes are a nice addition, but it's been 4 months and fewer than 2 people on my friends list are 320. Compared to it taking maybe one week to hit max level in HoW.

I don't have any characters at 320 - nor do I need to. I have WEAPONS at 320, and some ARMOR at 320 - but no characters above 319. I think all endgame content is completely doable at 311+, and if you're careful, even lower. (I've done Oryx Hard runs with 1-2 players in the 304-6 range.)

In contrast, I wasn't able to consistently finish 34 PoE runs until pretty recently. I remember hours and hours and HOURS of failed attempts. With no successes in the middle to ameliorate the pain.

I guess it goes to show that different content is harder/easier for different people.

You guys are probably just playing high-level content more frequently now than you did previously.

Maybe.

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Week 1? I went months. Not sure how you did it.

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Agree 100%

This may be true if you care about hitting 320.

Hence the first sentence in my post. Who cares about being above 300 if you aren't chasing 320?

Because 315 compared to 300 makes a huge difference in the hard mode raid?

That is what chasing 320 is for.

The hard mode is for chasing 320? If that is what you mean then I disagree, cause I want to play and beat hard mode just for the challenge.

Me, too. I just want to be leveled high enough to not struggle too much in hard mode.

If I were as highly skilled as Cruel and had ever had the experience of swimming in etheric light like he did, I might feel differently and have different goals.

Agree 100%

This may be true if you care about hitting 320.

Hence the first sentence in my post. Who cares about being above 300 if you aren't chasing 320?

Because 315 compared to 300 makes a huge difference in the hard mode raid?

That is what chasing 320 is for.

The hard mode is for chasing 320? If that is what you mean then I disagree, cause I want to play and beat hard mode just for the challenge.

This entire conversation illustrates why I don't like the more granular system we have now. In HoW, you wanted to be level 34 to take on level 34 PoE. And you could reach level 34 before attempting 34 PoE.

Now, something as simple as asking "what level do I need to be in order to play the heroic raid" yields a convoluted answer. And the follow-up question "how to I get myself up to heroic raid level?" yields an even more convoluted answer. It's all just a bunch of unnecessary clutter, IMO. Normal King's fall should be "level 30". Heroic King's fall should be "Level 32". And you should be able to reach level 32 by beating the previous activity a few times, rather than playing 3/4 of the heroic activity over and over until you get just the right drops to bring you up to 32.

I think I only earned like 3 pieces of Etheric Light during the House of Wolves. To me the new system seems more accessible because you have Iron Banner, SRL, Crimson Doubles, Trials of Osiris which can all drop high-level gear up to 320. Anything between 300-320 feels more like etheric light to me than strictly 320 level because items normally drop at less than 300.

I'm with you here. I don't play Trials at all, so Etheric Light was really only available in Prison of Elders. (I suppose there were people who got it as Nightfall drops, but I never did.)

I didn't have high enough light levels to beat level 34 PoE (never mind Skolas himself!), so I rarely got any. I think I only got Etheric Light consistently when they added it to Iron Banner packages.

Contrast that with TTK, where you are GUARANTEED 320 drops if you play the challenge mode of the raid. Warpriest GUARANTEES you a 320 Heavy or Special weapon (or both!), and you can run it 3 times during that week. Golgoroth GUARANTEES you a 320 armor piece, and again, you can run it 3 times during its week. Oryx GUARANTEES you a 320 primary or a 320 helmet (though running ths successfully requires a much better team than either of the other two challenges).

At one point, I ran the Oryx Challenge 6 times in a 3 week period (ran it on a Tuesday x3, then ran it 3 weeks later on the same Tuesday, x3) and ended up with 6 320 primary weapons (and a bunch 310+ stuff at the same time). That's a lot of infusion fodder, in a 3 week period. :) During HoW, I had to wait at least a month between Iron Banners to even ATTEMPT multiple Etheric Light drops.

You're using the word "Guarantee" a lot, and with a lot of emphasis. While the points you're making when you use that word are technically true, they come with caveats that weaken the argument.

Foremost: RNG. Are you guaranteed a 320 item from completing challenge mode? Yes. Is that item going to be the class of item you want? Maybe. Maybe not. I've run Oryx Challenge 6 times, hoping and hoping for a harrowed helmet to drop so I can finally get the raid shader. No dice.

I'm not saying that the Prison of Elders was a good or fun activity (Hint: it's not), but as a method of getting 6 pieces of gear up to max level per week, it felt like far more of a guarantee then anything in TTK.

And this is before I start ranting about the Infusion system.

No, I meant you have to chase 320 (get over 310) for the Oryx fight on Hard. Which is the only part of the game where it is necessary.

Armor core from 32 and an Exotic shard put you at 33. Two 34 runs put you at 34, which you could do between two characters or take two weeks to accomplish on each character. Weapons didn't need to be 365 to do anything in the end game that wasn't Skolas, and even then you could get by just matching elements.

Being unable to beat the 34 is just user/internet error, if anything. I also have a really hard time believing you can easily beat Hard Oryx but struggled even a little on 34 PoE.

Fun wise? Yeah, this raid is much much better. But "progression" wise it is hilariously worse, and it isn't really debatable.

Armor core from 32 and an Exotic shard put you at 33. Two 34 runs put you at 34, which you could do between two characters or take two weeks to accomplish on each character. Weapons didn't need to be 365 to do anything in the end game that wasn't Skolas, and even then you could get by just matching elements.

Being unable to beat the 34 is just user/internet error, if anything.

You're totally right about that last line - but it doesn't change the fact that I (and the group I was with) tried 34 maybe a dozen times, for hours at a time each time, with zero success.

I haven't had that problem with King's Fall. (Well, that's not fair. I HAVE had runs that lasted for hours and got nowhere. Hell, we were stuck not too long ago on the Totems, for 3 friggin' hours! But I have NOT had a dozen failed runs in a row on KF, and I certainly did with PoE.)

Again - it's clear that different types of endgames play differently. PoE requires EVERYONE to be paying attention, whereas Raids don't have this problem - you can lose one or two players in a section and still finish it. Maybe I should have played PoE with different people - I dunno. I just know that my first 34 clear came MONTHS after HoW dropped... while I had success in KF the second time through.

Hell, we were stuck not too long ago on the Totems, for 3 friggin' hours!

Entirely my fault. I apologize. It seems my presence alone is enough to doom a totem run. From now on, I'll try my best to only join KF from the Warpriest forwards. :p

Hell, we were stuck not too long ago on the Totems, for 3 friggin' hours!

Entirely my fault. I apologize. It seems my presence alone is enough to doom a totem run. From now on, I'll try my best to only join KF from the Warpriest forwards. :p

How dare you claim it was your fault! It was mine--all mine!

Hell, we were stuck not too long ago on the Totems, for 3 friggin' hours!

Entirely my fault. I apologize. It seems my presence alone is enough to doom a totem run. From now on, I'll try my best to only join KF from the Warpriest forwards. :p

How dare you claim it was your fault! It was mine--all mine!

It was neither of you, and you both know it.

(Not the gun)

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This entire conversation illustrates why I don't like the more granular system we have now.

I can't really add anything to this conversation, but for what it's worth, I totally agree with you. HoW was the pinnacle of Destiny's leveling system so far.

As much I as I really hate when people just complain about "the grind," it's actually part of why I don't play anymore. I did the Normal mode raid, and while I'd be interested in doing Hard Mode, I don't care enough to grind out gear for it. If the raid worked like PoE did, handing out something like Etheric light, I'd be able to deal with it more easily I think. While I'm sure the drops are probably decent enough that I could be hard mode ready after a few runs of the normal mode, the RNG is there and feels crappy enough that I just don't feel like dealing with it.

For those of us in the know, "Moof" is highly appropriate for a Dogcow.

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I'm in an odd place on this one.

I wasn't doing trials much at all during house of wolves. Etheric light was at a premium, and I had to specifically schedule events to pursue etheric light, so I could advance forward and "keep up" with friends like cruel who were swimming in etheric light. I found that I felt lucky to get more than 1-2 etheric light per week early on. Trials should never have given out so much etheric light IMO, it was incredibly unbalanced. However, that is what we have in challenge mode now -- trials gives out meh gear and challenge mode gives out loot like candy.

That said, I loved the concept of etheric light. I liked the variety you had, and the ability to reroll legendaries paired with this made a good custom loadout very possible. I got to level and use weapons I liked, in the way I liked them, and it was effective.

The grind is real. I do not regret my decision to have a primary character, with some alts that occasionally get to do things. It's taken a ton of the pain out of the current grind. Except for IB, I still grind IB. It's rarely worth it. =)

The grind is real. I do not regret my decision to have a primary character, with some alts that occasionally get to do things. It's taken a ton of the pain out of the current grind. Except for IB, I still grind IB. It's rarely worth it. =)

I find the Iron Banner significantly more fun than it used to be. I still don't get that Top Scorer part of the weekly bounty every event, but that's okay. I don't have to have it to get to rank 5.

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