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Old vs New: Weapons (and Armor) (Destiny)
by red robber , Crawfish Country, Saturday, March 12, 2016, 05:06 (3272 days ago)
So I haven't played much Destiny lately, but I usually still watch Destiny commentary videos. I was watching this video from Datto, and while we've probably had this discussion before, I was just curious about your thoughts on Destiny's weapons, specifically old vs current models.
1. Would you like to see Y1 weapons become viable again through the infusion system, or some other method?
I would, and I believe it would bring a greater diversity of guns onto both PvP, and PvE arenas. (Exception: Thorn) I think its a shame that those older weapons are simply tossed to the wayside. We "earned" those weapons, and for those of us who held on to them, how cool would it be to pull them out of the locker, dust them off, and take em for a spin. How good would Dr Nope be right now with high RoF autos in a much better spot?
I also think the infusion system is perfect for this, because unlike the etheric light, you'd have to put in some work to get that Vision of Confluence up to snuff.
2. Do you feel that the old weapons would overpower the current armory?
I'm on the fence with this one. Many of the Y1 exotics were nerfed/had significant changes and some are already in Y2. I don't think any of those are really OP. Fatebringer and Gallahooorn are probably my biggest concerns for PvE. HC's really took some shots with TTK though. And of course Thorn would be a problem in PvP. That gun truly is game breaking. Something major would have to be done with this weapon for it to play well with all the others.
3. What legacy weapons do you have left or would you like to bring forward?
I've deleted almost everything, but I still have a handful of goodies in the vault. I have my original Alphabet Soup rifle which was the first legendary I purchased from the Vanguard. Great gun for PvE. For PvP I'd have to go with either my Allfate or Hopscotch Pilgrim. The Allfate has a much better sight, but my Hopscotch has maxed stability. I do hate that they changed Hoppy's archetype from the slow to medium RoF though. Patience and Time, man I miss that third eye perk. That was the only sniper I really fell in Love with. For a heavy, I'd have to go with my Against All Odds. Superstable w feeding frenzy and range perks.
4. Would you be more likely to play Destiny if you have slowed, or replay older content to gain weapons that you had not received from previous raids, etc?
There are many raid pieces I did not get. I'm not sure if I ever had VoC and I know for sure I didn't get Fatebringer. There are many other lesser quality raid weapons which may now be wonderful guns in the new meta. Wasn't there a high RoF auto in Crota? I'm not sure if getting these would actually pull me back in though. Partially because I'm enjoying the simplicity of BO3. Partially because of simply wearing out the current content that I already have played. I'm also finding that PvP in Destiny is much tougher than some other shooters. The aim assist is near zero compared to CoD, plus the combo of builds and light levels, knowing exactly when you use nades and supers. Its simple and intricate at the same time. Just writing about it is making me want to jump back in though.
Many of the same ideas can be had about armors. The older armors had some great perks and even better looks and it would be awesome to see all the potential builds. Can you imagine the variety?
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Old vs New: Weapons (and Armor)
by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Saturday, March 12, 2016, 15:14 (3272 days ago) @ red robber
I've made a few posts on this subject in the past... I feel pretty strongly that the weapons sandbox in year 2 so far has been a big step down from year 1. Primary weapons in particular have been hit really hard. If you look at the current PvP landscape, I think it's pretty telling that Mida and Last Word seem to be the 2 most dominant primary weapons (with Doctrine of Passing right there with them, if you get the right roll). Mida is basically the same gun it was in year 1. It was always very good, but in year 1 it just couldn't compete with many of the better hand cannons or Pulse Rifles. But they've all been nerfed to the point where Mida now blows them out of the water in most situations. As for the Last Word; it was one of the best PvP guns in year 1, then it received a substantial nerf, yet it is still better than most other weapons in year 2.
I think the year 2 weapons lack the diversity and overall performance of the year 1 weapons. There are hardly any guns that behave the way I would like them to. Or to put it another way, I find most year 2 weapons feel disappointing in one way or another. "This would be great if it just fired a little faster" or "I almost love this thing I just wish the range wasn't so terrible". Almost every gun has a major flaw that prevents it from feeling awesome in any situation, unlike some of the year 1 weapons that felt awesome in almost every situation.
So my knee-jerk response to your question is "yes, please make year 1 weapons viable for end-game content". Obviously there would need to be a few tweaks here and there (thorn is a big problem, as you already mentioned).
But I think what I would like even more than that is to have new Year 2 weapons introduced that were as fun and exciting as the guns in year 1. I know I play this game way more than the average player (so I have more weapons than the average player) but at this point it has been almost a year since there's been a raid drop I've been excited about. I miss that feeling. That loop of playing my favorite activity in the game, getting a cool new toy that was loads of fun to use, then going back into my favorite activity and enjoying it in a whole new way because of my new toy! That's been missing from Destiny for a very long time for me, and I'd love to see it come back. Giving us the ability to bring year 1 guns up to year 2 level would be great (and for those who perhaps missed certain weapons the first time around it would fill the gap I'm describing) but I think I'd like to see all new stuff even more.
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Old vs New: Weapons (and Armor)
by slycrel , Saturday, March 12, 2016, 15:42 (3272 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
There's a power imbalance that I understand Bungie wants to control. I'd be surprised if we see a straight translation of Y1 guns to current light levels. See Thorn, Ghallarhorn, fatebringer, etc. Really the VoG weapons and some Y1 exotics were amazing. Crota's end didn't have that fantastic of guns. Neither did King's Fall (maybe with the exception of Quillim's Terminus).
I hope we will see some sort of gunsmith exchange for new, tweaked versions of old guns. It would make sense with the story and flavor, while allowing re-use to happen from old content.
Obviously there are issues with year 2, but the comparison to year one weapons isn't fair. I rocked the heck out of last word in year one not because it was OP but because it was a amazingly fun gun. Just recall in year one we had:
Slow firing Autorifles dominate (Suros), then had them nerfed. Then we had hand cannons/scout rifles dominate. Vision of Confluence was everywhere, and Fatebringer, Word of Crota, The Devil You Know, Chance, were all viable and common weapons. Shotguns didn't start do dominate until fusion rifles were taken down a notch. Snipers did dominate when you could use armor piercing rounds to shoot through cover.
Year two has a much larger variety of perks and ways to change up gun behavior. We have more variety in the combination of those perks with different gun manufacturers getting different column options.
The problem in year 2 is mainly that the the low skill weapons also have the best time to kill. Fast auto/pulse and last word are the lowest TTK, and they don't require the precision head shots that would make scouts/HCs comparable. The reason HCs started to dominate in Year 1 was that you could get those 2 body 1 headshot for the kill fairly easily. Now in year 2 the range reduction makes half your bullets vanish and makes it too hard to get those kills when you are getting sprayed by DoP/Armenius.
Likewise Snipers scope too fast and can take out people at even close ranges. Shotguns can compete in close, but fusions charge time just kills them.
I think you could probably make the current crucible meta work well if:
1. HCs gave far more flinch, and suffered less flinch, per hit, slight increase in range.
2. Reduction in range for the fast auto rifle archetype. Larger mags for the slow firing ones.
3. Longer scope in time for snipers, suffer more flinch when scoped in.
4. Fusion rifles fire more bolts per burst, slight improvements to range.
I would also like to see Omalon guns with perks that interact with the characters's grenades/melee/super/jump. Suros with more perks that enhance accuracy and stability, and Hakke with more ammo/pickup and bullet hit effects. Just to really broaden the selection more.
I would also love to see the various venders do an arms day thing like banshee. Since we have so many perks you really need some rerolling or high drop rates to get rolls people would consider.
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I think year 2 is better
by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Saturday, March 12, 2016, 18:20 (3272 days ago) @ Durandal
Obviously there are issues with year 2, but the comparison to year one weapons isn't fair. I rocked the heck out of last word in year one not because it was OP but because it was a amazingly fun gun. Just recall in year one we had:
Slow firing Autorifles dominate (Suros), then had them nerfed. Then we had hand cannons/scout rifles dominate. Vision of Confluence was everywhere, and Fatebringer, Word of Crota, The Devil You Know, Chance, were all viable and common weapons. Shotguns didn't start do dominate until fusion rifles were taken down a notch. Snipers did dominate when you could use armor piercing rounds to shoot through cover.
Not sure I follow... are you saying that there were more balance issues in year 1?
When I read your first 2 paragraphs, my first thought is "I wish I had a year 2 weapon that I enjoyed as much as any one of the year 1 weapons you just listed". I agree that Bungie struggled to find a good PvP balance with their weapons sandbox in year 1, but to me the weapons were just more fun and satisfying to use. I think a big part of my problem with the year 2 weapons (particularly primaries) is that Bungie has made many of them feel less reliable than their year 1 counterparts. When I fire a year 2 hand cannon, the bullet just doesn't consistently land where I expect it to. Same with Pulse Rifles. Unless you have an amazing roll, Auto Rifles are a struggle to control (side bar: am I the only one who wishes Bungie would adopt a Halo Assault Rifle approach to Auto Rifles in Destiny? Keep them accurate when fired in short bursts, increase the bullet spread when fired continuously, but remove most of the recoil so you can actually aim the thing where you'd like to aim it?)
Year two has a much larger variety of perks and ways to change up gun behavior. We have more variety in the combination of those perks with different gun manufacturers getting different column options.
So this is where I strongly disagree. You are of course correct in a literal sense (we literally do have more available perks now than we did in year 1), but I find the majority of the new perks are borderline useless (this goes for year 2 armor perks as well). Most of them are either too specific to matter or flat out undesirable. When you combine an array of underwhelming perks with weapons that have such mediocre base performance stats, it creates a situation where most players (at least high level players) end up wanting/using the same handful of perks on every weapon, just to make them decently effective. Want to use an Auto Rifle in the crucible? Better hope you have an AR with counterbalance. Scout Rifle in PvE? Once you've used a SR with Firefly, it feels painful to go back to anything else because they need the extra stopping power. Pulse Rifle in PvP? Again, max stability is a must, anything else is throwaway. Hand Cannon in PvE? You're going to have a real tough time unless you have reload perks AND reload/ammo perks on your armor.
This is a far cry from year 1, where the wider range of available weapon archetypes allowed for a more varied range of perk combos that were actually effective. I could go into PvE with my Ghallion's Demise with Firefly and tear fools up thanks to it's slow-firing-yet-hard-hitting stats. But I could also take my explosive rounds B-Line Trauma into nightfalls or raids and do great with its high RoF wall-of-death damage output. Choices like that are largely missing from year 2.
The problem in year 2 is mainly that the the low skill weapons also have the best time to kill. Fast auto/pulse and last word are the lowest TTK, and they don't require the precision head shots that would make scouts/HCs comparable. The reason HCs started to dominate in Year 1 was that you could get those 2 body 1 headshot for the kill fairly easily. Now in year 2 the range reduction makes half your bullets vanish and makes it too hard to get those kills when you are getting sprayed by DoP/Armenius.
I think that is a very good point.
Likewise Snipers scope too fast and can take out people at even close ranges. Shotguns can compete in close, but fusions charge time just kills them.
Just want to say that I think Fusion Rifles are actually a bit under-appreciated. I've been taking one into Trials quite a bit over the past few months, and I do very well with it. Although I do find them tougher to use in 6v6 gametypes where you have less opportunity to position yourself correctly without being flanked.
I think you could probably make the current crucible meta work well if:1. HCs gave far more flinch, and suffered less flinch, per hit, slight increase in range.
2. Reduction in range for the fast auto rifle archetype. Larger mags for the slow firing ones.
3. Longer scope in time for snipers, suffer more flinch when scoped in.
4. Fusion rifles fire more bolts per burst, slight improvements to range.
I like the sound of all these changes. I would add a greater zoom distance to snipers, making it tougher to quick-scope enemies at close-mid range.
I would also like to see Omalon guns with perks that interact with the characters's grenades/melee/super/jump. Suros with more perks that enhance accuracy and stability, and Hakke with more ammo/pickup and bullet hit effects. Just to really broaden the selection more.I would also love to see the various venders do an arms day thing like banshee. Since we have so many perks you really need some rerolling or high drop rates to get rolls people would consider.
I like this idea a lot as well :)
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I think year 2 is better
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, March 12, 2016, 23:46 (3272 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
When you combine an array of underwhelming perks with weapons that have such mediocre base performance stats, it creates a situation where most players (at least high level players) end up wanting/using the same handful of perks on every weapon, just to make them decently effective. Want to use an Auto Rifle in the crucible? Better hope you have an AR with counterbalance. Scout Rifle in PvE? Once you've used a SR with Firefly, it feels painful to go back to anything else because they need the extra stopping power. Pulse Rifle in PvP? Again, max stability is a must, anything else is throwaway. Hand Cannon in PvE? You're going to have a real tough time unless you have reload perks AND reload/ammo perks on your armor.
This is why, in Destiny 2 anyway, Bungie should redefine and rethink perks. I think that perks that directly increase a gun's effectiveness are bad. First of all, they are boring, and second of all, you run into the situation which you just described where nothing compares to optimal rolls.
Perks need to be such that they do not change the weapon's effectiveness per se, but give you interesting advantages or options. Battle Runner is a good example of the type of perk that would be appropriate for a gun in Destiny 2. It doesn't straight up buff the gun.
I think year 2 is better
by Claude Errera , Sunday, March 13, 2016, 00:00 (3272 days ago) @ Cody Miller
When you combine an array of underwhelming perks with weapons that have such mediocre base performance stats, it creates a situation where most players (at least high level players) end up wanting/using the same handful of perks on every weapon, just to make them decently effective. Want to use an Auto Rifle in the crucible? Better hope you have an AR with counterbalance. Scout Rifle in PvE? Once you've used a SR with Firefly, it feels painful to go back to anything else because they need the extra stopping power. Pulse Rifle in PvP? Again, max stability is a must, anything else is throwaway. Hand Cannon in PvE? You're going to have a real tough time unless you have reload perks AND reload/ammo perks on your armor.
This is why, in Destiny 2 anyway, Bungie should redefine and rethink perks. I think that perks that directly increase a gun's effectiveness are bad. First of all, they are boring, and second of all, you run into the situation which you just described where nothing compares to optimal rolls.Perks need to be such that they do not change the weapon's effectiveness per se, but give you interesting advantages or options. Battle Runner is a good example of the type of perk that would be appropriate for a gun in Destiny 2. It doesn't straight up buff the gun.
Isn't that what MOST of the Year 2 perks are like, and what people are complaining about?
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I think year 2 is better
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, March 13, 2016, 00:00 (3272 days ago) @ Claude Errera
Isn't that what MOST of the Year 2 perks are like, and what people are complaining about?
Not really… there are very few existing perks that fall under what I was talking about.
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I think year 2 is better
by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Sunday, March 13, 2016, 15:10 (3271 days ago) @ Claude Errera
When you combine an array of underwhelming perks with weapons that have such mediocre base performance stats, it creates a situation where most players (at least high level players) end up wanting/using the same handful of perks on every weapon, just to make them decently effective. Want to use an Auto Rifle in the crucible? Better hope you have an AR with counterbalance. Scout Rifle in PvE? Once you've used a SR with Firefly, it feels painful to go back to anything else because they need the extra stopping power. Pulse Rifle in PvP? Again, max stability is a must, anything else is throwaway. Hand Cannon in PvE? You're going to have a real tough time unless you have reload perks AND reload/ammo perks on your armor.
This is why, in Destiny 2 anyway, Bungie should redefine and rethink perks. I think that perks that directly increase a gun's effectiveness are bad. First of all, they are boring, and second of all, you run into the situation which you just described where nothing compares to optimal rolls.Perks need to be such that they do not change the weapon's effectiveness per se, but give you interesting advantages or options. Battle Runner is a good example of the type of perk that would be appropriate for a gun in Destiny 2. It doesn't straight up buff the gun.
Isn't that what MOST of the Year 2 perks are like, and what people are complaining about?
I was thinking more specifically of perks like "gain X when you're the last surviving member of your fireteam" (a PvP situation that is usually hopeless and you actively want to avoid). Or things like "well I've got a choice between a slight boost to range or a slight boost to stability, but the range and stability are both so terrible on this gun that neither perk will save it". Or my personal favorite: the Pulse rifle perk where missing a shot causes your gun to fire a 4th bullet as part of your burst. I already missed, now the perk is throwing away extra ammo! Lol
I think Battle Runner is a good example of a perk that has interesting playstyle implications without overtly effecting the weapon (although I do feel the effect is a little too short). 3rd eye is another one. Or the one that lets you pick up ammo by shooting it. I'd love to see perks swing in that general direction, but only if the guns themselves have good base stats, which many year 2 primaries don't at the moment.
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I think year 2 is better
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, March 13, 2016, 15:17 (3271 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
Or my personal favorite: the Pulse rifle perk where missing a shot causes your gun to fire a 4th bullet as part of your burst. I already missed, now the perk is throwing away extra ammo! Lol
That is actually not how the perk works. I believe it is completely mis-worded. If you miss a shot, it goes back into your magazine once per burst. It doesn't operate anything remotely like the description.
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Old vs New: Weapons (and Armor)
by ProbablyLast, Saturday, March 12, 2016, 16:52 (3272 days ago) @ red robber
edited by ProbablyLast, Saturday, March 12, 2016, 16:56
1) Yes.
2) Absolutely.
3) Gyllenhaal, VoG weapons, Black Hammer. I had a full auto dry rot that I really enjoyed using as well. Of course, there isn't much of a reason to use a non-sniper in PvE now.
4) I would welcome any reason to go play the fun raids again. I still would now if six people reliably signed up.
:P
- No text -
King's Fall is fun too
by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Saturday, March 12, 2016, 19:38 (3272 days ago) @ ProbablyLast
You've probably just forgotten because you "have" to do it so often and it rarely drops gear worth having. I've played it maybe 3 times since the new year and had good fun, but I know I got bored of it when it was 3 times a week. CE and VoG were the same though - when its a job on the checklist (or a barrier to further enjoyment) its not as fun.
Year 2 weapons are ~50% of why I "quit"
by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Saturday, March 12, 2016, 19:35 (3272 days ago) @ red robber
I just don't enjoy any of them. I don't know what's changed exactly, but I have yet to find a weapon I enjoy for PvP. Theres a few I like for PvE, but I "can't" use them because the light isnt high enough.
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Yeah, they're not very fun.
by Funkmon , Saturday, March 12, 2016, 21:58 (3272 days ago) @ someotherguy
No elements, no fun perks. I'll say the Suros scout rifles on full auto are about 80% fun, I like them a lot, but the lack of element makes them significantly less so. No field scout on guns means I constantly reload and run out of ammo, all the recoil patterns suck, they're just bleh.
Oh well!
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Old vs New: Weapons (and Armor)
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Sunday, March 13, 2016, 00:14 (3272 days ago) @ red robber
I would imagine that the year one guns are not so game breaking anymore. You mentioned having to fix Thorn if it ever saw its way to current light levels, but between its own nerfs to its poison effects and general tweaks to Hand Cannons, I think it would be much less overpowering that in was. You still see it from time to time in regular Crucible and it is still a bit of a pain in that it forces you to take cover a little longer than usual, but it can't really kill from around corners any more.
Same would go for most year one weapons. Overall changes to weapon balance and perks would likely see most of them fit in just fine. Of course, this also means they would not perform exactly as they did in year one... If Bungie pulled forward The Devil You Know, would it be the cross map mini-sniper it used to be? Nope. And if not, what would be the point of bringing it forward except to have a weapon with a name you are fond of?
I kinda wonder if the heart of the complaint here has more to do with not getting a fresh infusion of new names than it has to do with actual weapon fun-ness. If we were on the year one schedule we'd have had another mini-expansion by now with a complete vendor refresh, right?
Personally, I have at least one year two weapon in each category that I enjoy using or that fill the same role as a previous year one weapons, so in the end aside from wishing I still had the names Fair and Square and Three Little Words and so on, I don't see any pressing need to bring back old weapons.
As for armor, I'd like to see some sort of system to bring any armor up to max light level, because why not? It's not like I can't wear ANY set from any expansion if I've kept it around. Letting me wear them and be competitive seems fairly inoffensive...
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Old vs New: Weapons (and Armor)
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Monday, March 14, 2016, 15:34 (3270 days ago) @ Ragashingo
I would imagine that the year one guns are not so game breaking anymore. You mentioned having to fix Thorn if it ever saw its way to current light levels, but between its own nerfs to its poison effects and general tweaks to Hand Cannons, I think it would be much less overpowering that in was. You still see it from time to time in regular Crucible and it is still a bit of a pain in that it forces you to take cover a little longer than usual, but it can't really kill from around corners any more.
Same would go for most year one weapons. Overall changes to weapon balance and perks would likely see most of them fit in just fine. Of course, this also means they would not perform exactly as they did in year one... If Bungie pulled forward The Devil You Know, would it be the cross map mini-sniper it used to be? Nope. And if not, what would be the point of bringing it forward except to have a weapon with a name you are fond of?
I kinda wonder if the heart of the complaint here has more to do with not getting a fresh infusion of new names than it has to do with actual weapon fun-ness. If we were on the year one schedule we'd have had another mini-expansion by now with a complete vendor refresh, right?
Personally, I have at least one year two weapon in each category that I enjoy using or that fill the same role as a previous year one weapons, so in the end aside from wishing I still had the names Fair and Square and Three Little Words and so on, I don't see any pressing need to bring back old weapons.
As for armor, I'd like to see some sort of system to bring any armor up to max light level, because why not? It's not like I can't wear ANY set from any expansion if I've kept it around. Letting me wear them and be competitive seems fairly inoffensive...
We're getting updated versions of class items, at least. Just rebought my favorite cloak: Cloud Walker Tribute.
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Old vs New: Weapons (and Armor)
by MacAddictXIV , Seattle WA, Monday, March 14, 2016, 15:37 (3270 days ago) @ Kermit
We're getting updated versions of class items, at least. Just rebought my favorite cloak: Cloud Walker Tribute.
Yeah, I wish the Titan has something cooler than a butt towel... At least a cool shoulder guard or something! No cool flowy capes for us Titans!
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Old vs New: Weapons (and Armor)
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, March 14, 2016, 18:04 (3270 days ago) @ Ragashingo
I would imagine that the year one guns are not so game breaking anymore.
Game breaking weapons and abilities don't actually have to be bad per se. It's obviously fun to use and play with powerful items and abilities. What makes it work is when the challenges become game breaking, requiring you to use your game breaking stuff! Area 51 in Deus Ex is impossibly hard… unless you have your crazy set of augmentations that you have acquired and improved throughout the game.
The biggest thing I hear is that weapons are not 'fun' anymore. Destiny is of course in a tough spot because 1. PvP, and 2. it's not a game based on a set progression, so you can never guarantee a guardian having such a weapon or armor piece, and if you DID require it, grinding for it just so you could tackle whatever challenge would be silly.
I think removing the infusion system, and making cosmetics cosmetic again would go a long way.