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I know nothing about The Division other than what DBOers have told me about it (most of whom are actually enjoying the game), and my interest level is floating somewhere around zero.

I've been playing the crap out of The Division, so I'll shed some light on the situation:

First, to the original topic, Destiny's guns are the best feeling guns from any game ever. I consider that an objective fact.

Moving on:

The Division has level-based enemies and items, which means that if you shoot a level 10 bad guy with a level 1 gun, you're pretty much not going to hurt him. There are a whole lot of other things involved and I'm really oversimplifying here, but that's the general gist of it. Against same-level enemies you should generally be able to down basic (red health bar) enemies with a single sniper headshot, two DMR headshots, two shotgun blasts (or one if you're point blank to the head) or 4-8 rounds from your automatic weapon of choice, depending on range.

Against purple health bar enemies (armored), you have shoot down their armor first, and then they have about twice as much health as red health bar guys. Against yellow health bar enemies (heavily armored), you have to shoot down their armor first, and then they have about three times as much health as normal red bar guys. I don't have real numbers for this info, it's just what I've witnessed during gameplay (I'm currently level 29, the cap is 30).

So the yellow guys are definitely bullet sponges. They're a lot like yellow health bar enemies in Destiny. The purple guys can be spongey, but more often than not they're really just able to take a couple of extra shots, but not so many that they feel overpowered. It's like shooting a captain instead of a vandal.

One last note: Enemy health scales up as more players join your party. I can one-shot body shot when I play solo, but in a group of four it takes two headshots to kill a guy. This is good, as it keeps the encounters interesting instead of just having you and your team mowing down hordes of enemies that stand no chance.

As for the gun feel, it's actually really awesome. Not only do the weapon classes themselves feel good (sidearm, shotgun, smg, AR, LMG, DMR), but within those realms the individual weapons do have fairly unique feels. The way that feel is achieved is that the weapons differentiate more as they increase in level. A level 2 MP5 feels almost the same as a level 2 MP7, but a level 20 MP5 is noticeably softer hitting with smoother recoil than the chunkier level 20 MP7. The SCAR-H DMR at level 2 feels like a sniper rifle with a 20 round mag, but at level 20 it's clearly not going to be 1-shotting anyone (more like 3 headshots per kill) whereas a level 20 M44 is a true sniper rifle (bolt action, even) and will dome any red bar with a single round.

The result is that, as you play, you're encouraged to experiment early on as almost all weapons are interchangeable, but as you progress, you find that you like how certain weapons feel to the point where you're just not going to swap them for something with higher DPS because it doesn't handle the way you prefer.

Last note: There's not cannon about enemies being tougher as a result of the plague or anything like that. Those baseball bat guys are "rioters" who are the most basic enemy faction (all of the other factions' rusher type units have shotguns instead of baseball bats), and in the videos you're seeing, the player is in a full group and is a little underleveled, which is why that baseball bat guy can soak up two full mags from an SMG.

I hope this explains things!

Nope. Just looters. (So far, only up to a Level 8 Character).

Some have heavy thick bio-suits but nothing that could slow a long-gun round. The rounds from an AK in this game (if it were more accurate) would go through a cinder block. Here you need half a clip to kill guys wearing hoodies. They are very bullet-spongey.

I think they did this to combat the fact that if they were to make all the weapons and armor be practical and real-world specific, the main character (that would be you, the player) would be dead 2.5 seconds after staring to walk down the street by a random headshot.

Since dying every 2.5 seconds is not a 'fun' game, the designers tried to balance the dynamic of having a player and enemies that were not susceptible to the same damage one would sustain if it were designed to be real, while keeping it 'fun'. This however goes against the realistic present day setting the game tries so hard to show the player. Firing six 357 magnum rounds into a twenty-something covered in nothing but jeans and a t-shirt only to discover, not only is he not dead, but still coming at you. It takes you out of that thinly veiled 'realistic' gameplay.

In any event, The Division is very flawed, but I am enjoying it because I know deep down it's just a facade to give the player the excuse of running and shooting at New Yorkers after the Big Apple has gone to hell in a handbasket.

The 'Dress-Up-Barbie' options are pretty extensive, and I could get an even more perverse pleasure if I could get my character to wear a 'Boston' T-Shirt; just to piss off the locals even more. The ones I saved would hate me; being rescued by their biggest rival. And the ones I killed would hate me for the same reason. Being killed by one. Ah... what fun.

In any event, it's just a video game. And time will tell if I (or others) feel they got their money's worth of fun out of it.

A boston jacket would be amazing. It would need custom audio for the passers-by to say things like "oh what the F?" or "First the world ends and now sox fans are running around here?" "Go back to beantown!" Stuff like that would be awesome.

I think Destiny has a lot to learn from this 10 year old promotional ARG. http://areacodeinc.com/projects/chain-factor-numb3rs-arg/ but that's for another post...

This is an awesome idea for a game, or a Destiny Event. Sparrow racing event(s) was really downright fun, but an event with some meat to it would be great. A 6 week limited event that was interactive like an ARG would be so flipping cool. If our interaction actively changed and shaped the game as we played it?
The downfall is that it probably wouldn't be very replayable or as much fun to replay. So if you missed it or couldn't attend everyday you would really miss out on something great.

I don't think we've been playing the same game, or maybe you're only like 2 hours into it?

I've been playing The Division off and on and I have to say that their AI is both dumber, and the enemy interactions worse. Enemy difficulty is created just by adding health, there is no shield mechanic as near as I can tell. Boss battles are like the Y1 strikes, a big health enemy that just kind of wanders around shooting.

The AI is far smarter than Destiny, with enemy units behaving more tactically if they have a commander unit nearby, grenadiers chucking all their stuff at once at you while rushers charge you with shotguns, and LMGers providing suppressing fire. Snipers actively retreat to gain range and seek elevation for better angles, and you can hear the enemies communicating with each other to coordinate attacks or warn of danger. It's not genius level, but it feels like real AI interactions vs. Destiny's "every enemy of X type always behaves the same way no matter what is going on" AI. I have heard an enemy sniper yell out "he's reloading, charge him" and then a different enemy with a shotgun broke cover and charged me. That's AI on a level you have never seen in Destiny.

I only played it on Hard difficulty, so I don't know how it would work on Normal, but this sounds a lot like combat in The Order. I could work out enemy movements, weapons, and strategies just by listening to them. They would work to flank me and open up holes for their shotgunners, while snipers would pin me from higher areas.

The gunplay is ok, but not anything special. it lacks the character of ME3, which I'll argue it's more closely modeled after then Destiny. Why the random thug rushing me with a baseball bat takes 10 hits with my LMG to kill is another weird thing. My "marksman" rifles really seem to have laggy bullets and don't hit moving enemies at times, and the right shotgun kills at Fellwinter's ranges.

Definitely more of a ME3 gunplay system than Destiny, I agree. That being said, the guns become more differentiated at higher levels. It's a very interesting system. It feels like each gun type has base stats that match its entire class, and then gains more or less in each stat area with each level of the weapon, or something. low level SMGs all feel the same, but at high levels they are very different. Same with all the other guns.

In The Order, there were only a handful of weapons (akin to Halo 1), but there were no "bad" weapons. Each gun had a place in combat, and each weapon was as satisfying as the last.

Amusingly, your gunsight turns red on enemies and green on civilians. My brother has been running around shooting any random person on the street with a red sight saying "the gun has declared you guilty!" "question not the firearm, for it knows your sins!" Truly a person just minding their own business is in a dangerous situation in The Division if they are holding a bat.

That's hilarious. The trick being, of course, that there are no enemies "minding their own business" in this game. Walk up to anyone who had a red reticle and you'll see that they immediately start attacking you as soon as they notice you.

There are nowhere near enough games with Neutral enemies. Bioshock always holds a special place in my heart because of this for the Big Daddies... But yeah, The Order. Look for it on Redbox, as it only takes eight hours to get through the (darn solid) story.

The AI is far smarter than Destiny, with enemy units behaving more tactically if they have a commander unit nearby, grenadiers chucking all their stuff at once at you while rushers charge you with shotguns, and LMGers providing suppressing fire. Snipers actively retreat to gain range and seek elevation for better angles, and you can hear the enemies communicating with each other to coordinate attacks or warn of danger.

I've not seen any of this. Rushers always rush, hand gunners take cover, then pop out to fire. Snipers always go for the high ground. They don't seem to duck into cover when I'm aiming like Destiny.

Definitely more of a ME3 gunplay system than Destiny, I agree. That being said, the guns become more differentiated at higher levels.

I'll have to keep an eye out while I level. Right now i'm pretty low.

That's hilarious. The trick being, of course, that there are no enemies "minding their own business" in this game. Walk up to anyone who had a red reticle and you'll see that they immediately start attacking you as soon as they notice you.> >

Several times I've been able to "return the crates" while the enemies are just standing around talking. Or wander very close to a group looting a body. So you can get close without really triggering a response. I can stop and shoot mobs that are just kind of standing there and haven't noticed me, which is kind of immersion breaking. I mean if this was real life and a guy just rolled up and popped two punks Deathwish style I think the onlookers would freak a bit.

Added bonus, equip the talent that increases turret duration by 10% for each kill while turret or bomb is deployed.

Damn. If BL2 had that perk, my Commando would never get out of cover.