Toe over the P2W line

Something I notcied on the update page,

Both Chroma and Taken-themed gear can be found in Sterling Treasures. Three Sterling Treasures can be obtained each week by visiting the Postmaster after each weekly reset, successfully completing one Level 41 Prison of Elders activity, and completing one match in the featured Weekly Crucible Playlist.

Additional Sterling Treasures can also be purchased via Tess Everis in the Eververse Trading Company stores.

Chroma is obv. fine, that's a cosmetic. But the taken theme weapons means.... paying real money for weapon drops. So yea.

I actually have a fairly nuanced view of P2W, F2P and such (as my current addiction to Clash Royale connects) but if you are a "NO P2W stuff." In a sense, I wouldn't even by that bothered by it. But I am very bothered by the "NO NEVER GONNA DO P2W!" then slowly sneaking it in.

locked

2177 views

Something I notcied on the update page,

Both Chroma and Taken-themed gear can be found in Sterling Treasures. Three Sterling Treasures can be obtained each week by visiting the Postmaster after each weekly reset, successfully completing one Level 41 Prison of Elders activity, and completing one match in the featured Weekly Crucible Playlist.

Additional Sterling Treasures can also be purchased via Tess Everis in the Eververse Trading Company stores.

Chroma is obv. fine, that's a cosmetic. But the taken theme weapons means.... paying real money for weapon drops. So yea.

I actually have a fairly nuanced view of P2W, F2P and such (as my current addiction to Clash Royale connects) but if you are a "NO P2W stuff." In a sense, I wouldn't even by that bothered by it. But I am very bothered by the "NO NEVER GONNA DO P2W!" then slowly sneaking it in.

I'm pretty sure there are no weapons in the Sterling Treasures...

Also, I wouldn't consider having armor or even a single (or set) weapon in a random paid item to be P2W.

locked

2103 views

Something I notcied on the update page,

Both Chroma and Taken-themed gear can be found in Sterling Treasures. Three Sterling Treasures can be obtained each week by visiting the Postmaster after each weekly reset, successfully completing one Level 41 Prison of Elders activity, and completing one match in the featured Weekly Crucible Playlist.

Additional Sterling Treasures can also be purchased via Tess Everis in the Eververse Trading Company stores.

Chroma is obv. fine, that's a cosmetic. But the taken theme weapons means.... paying real money for weapon drops. So yea.

I actually have a fairly nuanced view of P2W, F2P and such (as my current addiction to Clash Royale connects) but if you are a "NO P2W stuff." In a sense, I wouldn't even by that bothered by it. But I am very bothered by the "NO NEVER GONNA DO P2W!" then slowly sneaking it in.

I'm pretty sure there are no weapons in the Sterling Treasures...

Also, I wouldn't consider having armor or even a single (or set) weapon in a random paid item to be P2W.

So in a sense, they are vanity armors until you infuse them with dropped gear.

locked

2099 views

Something I notcied on the update page,

Both Chroma and Taken-themed gear can be found in Sterling Treasures. Three Sterling Treasures can be obtained each week by visiting the Postmaster after each weekly reset, successfully completing one Level 41 Prison of Elders activity, and completing one match in the featured Weekly Crucible Playlist.

Additional Sterling Treasures can also be purchased via Tess Everis in the Eververse Trading Company stores.

Chroma is obv. fine, that's a cosmetic. But the taken theme weapons means.... paying real money for weapon drops. So yea.

I actually have a fairly nuanced view of P2W, F2P and such (as my current addiction to Clash Royale connects) but if you are a "NO P2W stuff." In a sense, I wouldn't even by that bothered by it. But I am very bothered by the "NO NEVER GONNA DO P2W!" then slowly sneaking it in.

I'm pretty sure there are no weapons in the Sterling Treasures...

Also, I wouldn't consider having armor or even a single (or set) weapon in a random paid item to be P2W.

Ok, the info on the website was ambiguous.

Still though, in theory you could be spending oodles of money to get the exact rolls you want. Given the new ease of infusion that seems like a thing that would be easy.

If it was weapons, and you could in theory spend your way to a god roll, it would be even more so.

locked

2066 views

Still though, in theory you could be spending oodles of money to get the exact rolls you want. Given the new ease of infusion that seems like a thing that would be easy.

If it was weapons, and you could in theory spend your way to a god roll, it would be even more so.

I'd be surprised if they ever did weapons, since even with a light level 3 weapon you can use it in PvP almost immediately (with the help of motes) to it's full potential.

locked

2054 views

If you watched the stream, then you know that there was no indication at all that the weapons would be in the Steling Treasures - only the armor (which will drop at 3 light).

I think you're being a bit disingenuous in saying that anything about what we have seen so far is over the P2W line.

locked

2080 views

If you watched the stream, then you know that there was no indication at all that the weapons would be in the Steling Treasures - only the armor (which will drop at 3 light).

Still gear for money. Down one more rung on the slippery slope.

Close to being Done Forever.

locked

2122 views

Still gear for money. Down one more rung on the slippery slope.

Close to being Done Forever.

Ah, one of my favorite logical fallacies.

locked

2088 views

Yeah, slopes don't have rungs.

locked

2011 views

- No text -

locked

2017 views

Slippery ladders are serious business.

locked

2046 views

If you watched the stream, then you know that there was no indication at all that the weapons would be in the Steling Treasures - only the armor (which will drop at 3 light).

Still gear for money. Down one more rung on the slippery slope.

Up one more shelf on the mixed metaphor tree.

locked

1880 views

If you watched the stream, then you know that there was no indication at all that the weapons would be in the Steling Treasures - only the armor (which will drop at 3 light).

Still gear for money. Down one more rung on the slippery slope.

Up one more shelf on the mixed metaphor tree.

Oh quiet. Make a like a tree and get outta here.

locked

1880 views

Something I notcied on the update page,

Both Chroma and Taken-themed gear can be found in Sterling Treasures. Three Sterling Treasures can be obtained each week by visiting the Postmaster after each weekly reset, successfully completing one Level 41 Prison of Elders activity, and completing one match in the featured Weekly Crucible Playlist.

Additional Sterling Treasures can also be purchased via Tess Everis in the Eververse Trading Company stores.

Chroma is obv. fine, that's a cosmetic. But the taken theme weapons means.... paying real money for weapon drops. So yea.

I actually have a fairly nuanced view of P2W, F2P and such (as my current addiction to Clash Royale connects) but if you are a "NO P2W stuff." In a sense, I wouldn't even by that bothered by it. But I am very bothered by the "NO NEVER GONNA DO P2W!" then slowly sneaking it in.

1. There were no weapons (or even Ghosts) shown to be Sterling Treasure rewards. All of the stuff shown was Armor (with 3 Light), with a chance to get stuff like Bonds and Chroma stuff.

2. Everyone is flat-out handed Sterling Treasure every week, as well as having a couple of easy drops for it, so nobody has to buy it to get ahead.

3. Even if it dropped weaponry (again, it doesn't), it would be at Light Level 3, so you'd have to sacrifice other gear (including Legendaries) to bring it up, making it no better than the gear you already had from a Light Level perspective.

locked

2086 views

Something I notcied on the update page,

Both Chroma and Taken-themed gear can be found in Sterling Treasures. Three Sterling Treasures can be obtained each week by visiting the Postmaster after each weekly reset, successfully completing one Level 41 Prison of Elders activity, and completing one match in the featured Weekly Crucible Playlist.

Additional Sterling Treasures can also be purchased via Tess Everis in the Eververse Trading Company stores.

Chroma is obv. fine, that's a cosmetic. But the taken theme weapons means.... paying real money for weapon drops. So yea.

I actually have a fairly nuanced view of P2W, F2P and such (as my current addiction to Clash Royale connects) but if you are a "NO P2W stuff." In a sense, I wouldn't even by that bothered by it. But I am very bothered by the "NO NEVER GONNA DO P2W!" then slowly sneaking it in.

There is no such thing, either it's in or it's not. Assuming this is basically regular gear (and it's hard to have armor that isn't just regular gear), it's not in. If you think it's to make it less of a shock when it is in, that's fine, but they're taking an awfully long time if that's their plan.

locked

2052 views

Something I notcied on the update page,

Both Chroma and Taken-themed gear can be found in Sterling Treasures. Three Sterling Treasures can be obtained each week by visiting the Postmaster after each weekly reset, successfully completing one Level 41 Prison of Elders activity, and completing one match in the featured Weekly Crucible Playlist.

Additional Sterling Treasures can also be purchased via Tess Everis in the Eververse Trading Company stores.

Chroma is obv. fine, that's a cosmetic. But the taken theme weapons means.... paying real money for weapon drops. So yea.

I actually have a fairly nuanced view of P2W, F2P and such (as my current addiction to Clash Royale connects) but if you are a "NO P2W stuff." In a sense, I wouldn't even by that bothered by it. But I am very bothered by the "NO NEVER GONNA DO P2W!" then slowly sneaking it in.

There is no such thing, either it's in or it's not. Assuming this is basically regular gear (and it's hard to have armor that isn't just regular gear), it's not in. If you think it's to make it less of a shock when it is in, that's fine, but they're taking an awfully long time if that's their plan.

I don't think there's some kind of insidious plan here, but it feels a little little bits of limit testing. Hence the idea of sticking a toe over the line and watching the community react.

There are lots of different levels of Pay 2 win; and I base on the relative effectiveness of paying real money to get ahead. Something like clash of clans, where high level of play requires thousands of dollars in investment is one extreme, where as buying legendary armor at light level 3 is the other. It's still "Pay some money to conceivably buy some power" but the possible utility of that power is extremely low, given how meh armor perks are in Destiny.

locked

2041 views

Chroma is obv. fine, that's a cosmetic. But the taken theme weapons means.... paying real money for weapon drops. So yea.

I actually have a fairly nuanced view of P2W, F2P and such (as my current addiction to Clash Royale connects) but if you are a "NO P2W stuff." In a sense, I wouldn't even by that bothered by it. But I am very bothered by the "NO NEVER GONNA DO P2W!" then slowly sneaking it in.

There is no such thing, either it's in or it's not. Assuming this is basically regular gear (and it's hard to have armor that isn't just regular gear), it's not in. If you think it's to make it less of a shock when it is in, that's fine, but they're taking an awfully long time if that's their plan.

I don't think there's some kind of insidious plan here, but it feels a little little bits of limit testing. Hence the idea of sticking a toe over the line and watching the community react.

There are lots of different levels of Pay 2 win; and I base on the relative effectiveness of paying real money to get ahead.

yeah, there are...

Something like clash of clans, where high level of play requires thousands of dollars in investment is one extreme, where as buying legendary armor at light level 3 is the other. It's still "Pay some money to conceivably buy some power" but the possible utility of that power is extremely low, given how meh armor perks are in Destiny.

... and for the armor this is not that at all

All of the gear you can buy seems to have normal perks other than the chromas and it has 3 defense.

The only way you can gain an advantage this way is to dump enough money in to get the exact perk set you want, but in my experience no one cares about non-exotic non-raid armor perks other than ammo storage and weapon reloading, and maybe elemental armor/resistances and a small handful of others, and everyone that cares should already have all those things by now.

I didn't see before you mentioned the weapons. I watched the stream archive yesterday and read comments on it the day it happened and I don't remember seeing anything about weapons in these treasure things. Can you source that?

locked

1920 views

Bungie now has a vested financial interest in ensuring that players don't acquire these sterling boxes "too quickly", where "too quickly" is defined by the amount of time before a consumer decides that the weekly grind isn't worth the time and pays up.

This means that you can no longer trust Bungie to balance drops according to what is "fun". There is now direct pressure on their designers to find a sweet spot between "fun" and "financially viable".

This is the exact scenario those of us who are against micro-transactions wanted to avoid. It wasn't because we were cheap or stingy. It was because it can directly impact the quality of the user experience.

locked

2097 views

This means that you can no longer trust Bungie to balance drops according to what is "fun".

To be fair, they couldn't even balance drops for 'fun' when there were no microtransactions.

locked

2085 views

Entirely accurate, though.

I feel they almost got it right with HoW, but were still short.

locked

2039 views

Entirely accurate, though.

I feel they almost got it right with HoW, but were still short.

I know what you mean. It always feels like one step forward and one step back with Bungie.

locked

2009 views

Entirely accurate, though.

I feel they almost got it right with HoW, but were still short.

I know what you mean. It always feels like one step forward and one step back with Bungie.

That was sarcasm. It bothers me to no end when people say that Bungie can't get shit right. For one, Bungie is dealing with 3 things:

1. Software
2. A Live system
3. People

None of these things are simple. This is an incredible complex system that they have to maintain and improve. Not only that, they are tasked to add more shit into this system while still balancing and maintaining it. And I haven't even got to the fact that they then have to deal with people in this system. Have you guys ever even met the average Joe who plays video games? Heck, have you met people in today's age?

Now, it's so simple to just say that Bungie can't balance a game right. I mean it's just a game! If you haven't guessed, my day job is to make sure a live software system that people use for their jobs is working to their expectations. I know only a small part of what bungie is going through because I only have to deal with about 3000 people with higher education. Bungie has to deal with millions of gamers.

Give Bungie a break. They care about the game too.

locked

1988 views

Bungie now has a vested financial interest in ensuring that players don't acquire these sterling boxes "too quickly", where "too quickly" is defined by the amount of time before a consumer decides that the weekly grind isn't worth the time and pays up.

This means that you can no longer trust Bungie to balance drops according to what is "fun". There is now direct pressure on their designers to find a sweet spot between "fun" and "financially viable".

This is the exact scenario those of us who are against micro-transactions wanted to avoid. It wasn't because we were cheap or stingy. It was because it can directly impact the quality of the user experience.

... but I would add that the drop rates are already not designed to be fun, but to string players along by requiring unnecessary amounts of time and repetition just to get the stuff we want to play with. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see this as a blow to good or pure intentions, because I don't think the loot system in Destiny has ever been designed that way.*

*Or if it was designed that way, it doesn't turn out that way in practice.

locked

2045 views

It was because it can directly impact the quality of the user experience.

But will it?

There is now direct pressure on their designers to find a sweet spot between "fun" and "financially viable".

Which is, if you think about it, the same as making the game at all in the first place. Or anything else for that matter. Try and pack in too much "fun" or "usefulness" or "utility" into your game or comic or car or shovel or whatever and you go bankrupt instead of delivering what someone else wants or needs.

All business and creative creation is a tradeoff between "fun" and "financial viability". Are micro transactions more so? Maybe. But let's not go pants on head on fire with statements like:

This means that you can no longer trust Bungie to balance drops according to what is "fun".

locked

2048 views

All business and creative creation is a tradeoff between "fun" and "financial viability". Are micro transactions more so? Maybe.

It is not the same. Not being able to add a cool new feature or level is different than making the base game less fun to justify the player's purchase of shit.

With a normal game, you are trying to make it as fun as possible with the money you have. With microtransactions, you are trying to make portions of the game annoying so as to get people to buy stuff. Otherwise, they would not purchase items that can be acquired for free.

Cyber already explained it as about as well as I could have.

locked

2009 views

With microtransactions, you are trying to make portions of the game annoying so as to get people to buy stuff. Otherwise, they would not purchase items that can be acquired for free.

Generally, I'd say you're right. However, this is not true in all cases, especially with regards to Destiny (for now, anyway). That includes this current thing they're selling. Additionally, though unrelated to your point above that I disagree with in this instance, I'd be willing to bet that the stuff that drops from this (weekly reset or purchased) is more or less garbage when compared to whatever is gonna be dropping from Trials and PoE (or even King's Fall). This probably won't impact end-game very much.

locked

1991 views

It was because it can directly impact the quality of the user experience.

But will it?

There is now direct pressure on their designers to find a sweet spot between "fun" and "financially viable".

Which is, if you think about it, the same as making the game at all in the first place. Or anything else for that matter. Try and pack in too much "fun" or "usefulness" or "utility" into your game or comic or car or shovel or whatever and you go bankrupt instead of delivering what someone else wants or needs.

All business and creative creation is a tradeoff between "fun" and "financial viability". Are micro transactions more so? Maybe. But let's not go pants on head on fire with statements like:

This means that you can no longer trust Bungie to balance drops according to what is "fun".

Well said. There's a bit of "profit motive = pure evil" to these discussions. As if a profit motive taints all over motives, as if the business of making games weren't a business, and as if we can't decide at any point that the benefit to us, the gamers, is not worth the money we spend. Bungie has a motivation to keep us from making that decision. They have motivation to give us value so that they can continue to do this work they love (one hopes), while also providing a livelihood for their employees.

locked

2025 views

Well said. There's a bit of "profit motive = pure evil" to these discussions. As if a profit motive taints all over motives

I would never, nor have I ever argued this. Arguments against microtransactions have nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with the negative effects on the the game.

locked

2009 views

Well said. There's a bit of "profit motive = pure evil" to these discussions. As if a profit motive taints all over motives, as if the business of making games weren't a business, and as if we can't decide at any point that the benefit to us, the gamers, is not worth the money we spend. Bungie has a motivation to keep us from making that decision.

Not necessarily. They have a motivation to hit a point on a revenue curve. If the amount of revenue they make from the portion of players that approves of microtransactions (or, at least, is unable to resist from indulging in them) is more than the amount they lose from those who stop purchasing the titles because of a perceived overemphasis on microtransactions, then they have an incentive to keep moving in this direction.

It is bad enough that the amount of development time needed to create cosmetic items for cash purchase is already so much lower than that needed to create real content, that there is an incentive for creating cosmetic items and against creating actual content.

Because of the token light levels and the new infusion mechanic, I don't think this is a toe over the line, but it is right up to the line with no more wiggle room left. I'm just a bit surprised that either Bungie feels so driven that their imaginations need to be put to work into financial "innovations" such as this, or that they are so desperate for cash that this is absolutely necessary to keep the lights on. I'm not sure which is worse.

locked

2007 views

or that they are so desperate for cash that this is absolutely necessary to keep the lights on. I'm not sure which is worse.

I obviously know nothing about the finances of making video games, but I can't believe that would be true. We never got hard numbers that I'm aware of, but it seems pretty obvious that Destiny sold extremely well. If that's not enough to keep the lights on, then maybe Bungie is in the wrong business, or they seriously need to consider downsizing.

I for one don't mind the occasional cosmetic item (I like looking cool!), but at this point it seems a little hard to argue that Bungie is prioritizing quality game content.

locked

1959 views

I for one don't mind the occasional cosmetic item (I like looking cool!), but at this point it seems a little hard to argue that Bungie is prioritizing quality game content.

For this game, yes. And that's the part that bugs me about all of this. All of this stuff in the update that I think is a good thing is still at the expense of any actual real new content. It's all rehashed locations, reskinned items and things, and rehashed concepts. I feel like the microtransactions were never about actually getting us new content like they said it would be. Then there are those who would argue that this rehashed stuff is "new content" and that Bungie totally is keeping their word. I'd say both sides are right, more or less.

The fall "expansion" will tell a lot. As it is currently, Bungie is definitely angling toward the psychological/addictive thing they've been pushing more and more over the past year with all of this. Luckily, it's all free aside from the microtransactions. We'll see what changes or what new things pop up later this year.

But in Bungie's defense, if the majority (I assume vast majority) of the study is working on Destiny 2 (preferably without 360 and PS3 ports), Destiny 1 may end up where we have it now even in the fall. So there's no truly "new" content. It's a tough pill to swallow, sure. But if Destiny 2 comes out, is absolutely awesome, doesn't follow the slippery slope into microtransaction hell, and is unbelievably solid compared to where we've been with this game, I think it'll be well worth the priority shift from this game to the sequel.

locked

1971 views

But if Destiny 2 comes out, is absolutely awesome, doesn't follow the slippery slope into microtransaction hell, and is unbelievably solid compared to where we've been with this game, I think it'll be well worth the priority shift from this game to the sequel.

I'm actually all for Bungie completely focusing on Destiny 2. I just wish they'd quit trying to blow smoke up my ass about all the amazing things they're still doing with Destiny 1.

I loved PoE, but rehashing it and increasing an arbitrary number doesn't count as exciting new content in my book. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think SRL was better than that. It was small, maybe, sure, but at least it was new (and fun!).

locked

1963 views

But if Destiny 2 comes out, is absolutely awesome, doesn't follow the slippery slope into microtransaction hell, and is unbelievably solid compared to where we've been with this game, I think it'll be well worth the priority shift from this game to the sequel.

I'm actually all for Bungie completely focusing on Destiny 2. I just wish they'd quit trying to blow smoke up my ass about all the amazing things they're still doing with Destiny 1.

I loved PoE, but rehashing it and increasing an arbitrary number doesn't count as exciting new content in my book. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think SRL was better than that. It was small, maybe, sure, but at least it was new (and fun!).

I know fans of POE who are pretty excited. (Full disclosure: I like it, but don't love it.)

locked

1958 views

I know fans of POE who are pretty excited. (Full disclosure: I like it, but don't love it.)

Oh I loved PoE, and I actually think this update looks pretty neat. I even recognize how much work it probably was, and that they're trying to do as much as possible with what they already have built. I guess I just fall on the side that rehashing old content isn't really that significant, and making it easier to chase higher numbers isn't enough for me anymore. And I'm okay with that; I'm not bitter about it, truly. I've got plenty of games to play, so it's really not an issue for me at this point.

See my reply to Xenos for a deeper explanation.

locked

1934 views

I'm actually all for Bungie completely focusing on Destiny 2. I just wish they'd quit trying to blow smoke up my ass about all the amazing things they're still doing with Destiny 1.

There is always the implication from fans that making content, or changing things that aren't X means that X is somehow being ignored or put on the back burner. As someone who has worked at several software companies that is rarely (if ever) the case. For one thing this update was primarily conceived and built by the live team, not the Destiny 2 team. There's not actually a scenario where if they put everyone "on" Destiny 2 that it would come out 3 months earlier, or be 20% better, that's not how software development works.

locked

1941 views

I'm actually all for Bungie completely focusing on Destiny 2. I just wish they'd quit trying to blow smoke up my ass about all the amazing things they're still doing with Destiny 1.

There is always the implication from fans that making content, or changing things that aren't X means that X is somehow being ignored or put on the back burner. As someone who has worked a several software companies that is rarely (if ever) the case. For one t hing this update was primarily conceived and built by the live team, not the Destiny 2 team. There's not actually a scenario where if they put everyone "on" Destiny 2 that it would come out 3 months earlier, or be 20% better, that's not how software development works.

Also, it's not likely that if they take all the people from the live team and make them work on the Destiny 2 project that it will make it better or go faster. In fact, it would most likely be the opposite.

The live team was made to do exactly what they are doing. Keep us entertained with new stuff until the bigger stuff comes out. And they are doing exactly that.

locked

1940 views

I'm actually all for Bungie completely focusing on Destiny 2. I just wish they'd quit trying to blow smoke up my ass about all the amazing things they're still doing with Destiny 1.

There is always the implication from fans that making content, or changing things that aren't X means that X is somehow being ignored or put on the back burner. As someone who has worked at several software companies that is rarely (if ever) the case. For one thing this update was primarily conceived and built by the live team, not the Destiny 2 team. There's not actually a scenario where if they put everyone "on" Destiny 2 that it would come out 3 months earlier, or be 20% better, that's not how software development works.

Oh I'm not trying to imply anything like that. I didn't mean to give that impression.

I'm not even trying to shit talk this update, really. I think it's actually pretty neat. I just think Bungie is currently very bad at communication and really apt to oversell what they're actually doing. That's what I meant with the blowing smoke comment. And I even realize that a lot of that is largely on the community expecting things Bungie hasn't even so much as hinted at, but they are really, really bad at managing expectations at this point. To the point where it almost feels like it's intentional, and they're relying on community hype to build excitement, and when things actually come out and don't even approach those expectations they can sit back and say, "well, we never said that; it's not our fault you expected that."

I also realize that it's a very cynical way to look at things, but it's been the trend with how they've handled just about everything since Destiny launched, so it's hard for me not to be cynical at this point.

And don't get me wrong; I love Destiny, I don't hate or even necessarily distrust Bungie. It's just difficult for me to get as excited about it anymore, and I feel like I've learned to take everything they say with a grain of salt, whereas I don't feel like I had to do that before. And that makes me a little sad.

locked

1941 views

Isn't the "Live Team" something like 5-10 people? If so, I'd say Destiny 1 isn't a large priority at Bungie proper currently.

locked

1896 views

Isn't the "Live Team" something like 5-10 people? If so, I'd say Destiny 1 isn't a large priority at Bungie proper currently.

Used to be, they hired quite a few more recently I believe.

locked

1913 views

I'm actually all for Bungie completely focusing on Destiny 2. I just wish they'd quit trying to blow smoke up my ass about all the amazing things they're still doing with Destiny 1.

There is always the implication from fans that making content, or changing things that aren't X means that X is somehow being ignored or put on the back burner. As someone who has worked at several software companies that is rarely (if ever) the case. For one thing this update was primarily conceived and built by the live team, not the Destiny 2 team. There's not actually a scenario where if they put everyone "on" Destiny 2 that it would come out 3 months earlier, or be 20% better, that's not how software development works.

I agree with all of this, but it is based on a lot of guesswork for me. Have they ever actually said what the Live team does, what other teams who are not the live team are called and how we can delineate which teams have and will worked on each? I never much cared, but if they are going to say that Eververse funds one "team" and certain content is distinguished by coming from that "team" I feel like I need to know this info to even understand the updates they post on the blog and to make purchasing decisions.

locked

1846 views

Have they ever actually said what the Live team does, what other teams who are not the live team are called and how we can delineate which teams have and will worked on each?

We don't know for sure what the other teams are called (I would imagine they either have code names OR something really simple like "Destiny 2 Team"), but they won't talk about those teams much as most companies don't. As far as the responsibilities of the Live Team, if you just search Bungie Destiny Live Team on Google there are a few articles that mention what they worki on, here's an example:

"David Dague, who is also known as Deej, explains that the focus is on the delivery of Sparrow Racing, which goes live on December 8, and the big update for the month of December and that announcements about year two activities will be delivered at a later date, with every new piece of content handled by the live team."

locked

1848 views

and an HR manual, while you're at it.

locked

1822 views

- No text -

locked

1817 views

or that they are so desperate for cash that this is absolutely necessary to keep the lights on. I'm not sure which is worse.

I obviously know nothing about the finances of making video games, but I can't believe that would be true. We never got hard numbers that I'm aware of, but it seems pretty obvious that Destiny sold extremely well. If that's not enough to keep the lights on, then maybe Bungie is in the wrong business, or they seriously need to consider downsizing.

Me neither, that's why I said it :)

I'm trying to sarcastically suggest that for some reason they are acting in a way that seems money-grubbing, as if it is not enough for them that we pay $60 for titles and $40 for expansions, but they want to ask me if I have $5 and offer me an emote or two in return.

That's actively sabotaging your content pipeline. You're begging for your publisher to decide that they don't need more real content, just more emotes. That's the drug addict saying he can quit any time he wants. If willpower and discretion are all that prevent you from realizing that since cosmetic items are easier and more profitable, and therefore making the game itself becomes secondary, then your best chance to exercise that willpower and discretion is at the start.

locked

1899 views

Yeah, sorry. I understood what you were saying. I was agreeing with you and adding my two cents--it just wasn't worded very thoughtfully, like most of the stuff I type.

locked

1890 views

Bungie now has a vested financial interest in ensuring that players don't acquire these sterling boxes "too quickly", where "too quickly" is defined by the amount of time before a consumer decides that the weekly grind isn't worth the time and pays up.

This means that you can no longer trust Bungie to balance drops according to what is "fun". There is now direct pressure on their designers to find a sweet spot between "fun" and "financially viable".

This is the exact scenario those of us who are against micro-transactions wanted to avoid. It wasn't because we were cheap or stingy. It was because it can directly impact the quality of the user experience.

locked

1978 views

We've got a chance at a piece of (initially) cosmetic armor that you can pay for. A drop which is guaranteed free to every player three times a week from three different ways to play the game.

So essentially it's a Pay-to-Not-Play microtransaction, right?

And so, the fear, if I'm not mistaken, is that since Bungie can make money off of this method, they might potentially make the game worse? So that people will want to pay to skip parts of it? Is that correct?

So metaphorically-speaking, instead of being a casino game, it would actually be more like paying the casino to NOT have to play their games for a chance at winning? :)

locked

1982 views

it's pay to not play. Or more accurately, it's a raffle -- everyone wins up to 3x a week, but some people win more because they pay. Essentially it's buying lottery tickets that are guaranteed some return.

locked

1953 views

Bungie now has a vested financial interest in ensuring that players don't acquire these sterling boxes "too quickly", where "too quickly" is defined by the amount of time before a consumer decides that the weekly grind isn't worth the time and pays up.

This means that you can no longer trust Bungie to balance drops according to what is "fun". There is now direct pressure on their designers to find a sweet spot between "fun" and "financially viable".

This is the exact scenario those of us who are against micro-transactions wanted to avoid. It wasn't because we were cheap or stingy. It was because it can directly impact the quality of the user experience.

If. IF this was end-level (or heck, even mid-tier) gear. But it's not. It's borderline just cosmetic gear that you could, IF you were compelled to, bring it up to useful levels, but even then, it'd just be standard gear. Show me one advantage that you get from buying the gear. List a single example of your experience being compromised from someone else's option to purchase the box. Can a person spend $100 on this box and have an advantage over you?
Can they do a single thing in the game that you are locked out of?

There are ways to improve loot acquisition, and definite ways that they could worsen it. This option is nothing but the former, a faster way to decorate your guardian a certain way if you want, without it affecting the gameplay in any tangible way.

locked

2012 views

Cyber's saying there's a financial benefit to players who want this gear not getting it. He said nothing about this gear being an advantage or of "your experience being compromised" by another player owning it. Whether the gear is of any non-cosmetic value is irrelevant, what matters is that Bungie have a financial incentive to give you bad drops where these items are concerned (whether or not they'd do anything about it is another matter. Im inclined to think not, but who can tell where Activision is involved).

Were you meaning to reply to someone else? Or just running the "it's only cosmetic" argument on autopilot?

locked

1816 views

- No text -

locked

1784 views

Hence my confusion. If it was meant to go somewhere else then I'd completely get what Korny's saying, it just seemed weird as a reply to Cyber's totally valid, non-P2W-themed post.

locked

1783 views

I think he was responding directly to this:

This is the exact scenario those of us who are against micro-transactions wanted to avoid. It wasn't because we were cheap or stingy. It was because it can directly impact the quality of the user experience.

Korny's response makes sense in that case. He disagrees that the user experience is negatively affected by the system where cosmetic items can be purchased rather than "earned." This probably has more to do with with a difference in how a person perceives the value of cosmetic items than any attempt to ignore someone's argument. In this sense, the p2w title of the thread is playing out even in this conversation- hence why I mentioned it.

I care about aesthetics. But I don't think I'll ever pay for this stuff. I certainly won't begrudge someone who does and I won't begrudge bungie for not only offering it as a transaction, but also offering it to all players through normal means. Sure the first hit is free, but its my responsibility to ascertain the value of the item's cost after that hit. The only impact on user experience I have now is to decide the value of taking an alternate route to something that is cosmetic.

locked

1815 views

I guess I read it in relation to the idea of Bungie playing with drop rates. Again, I don't think it's likely to happen, but if it does that's exactly what I was worried about. We all know why p2w is bad, but people keep talking like cosmetics are harmless, which they aren't if it encourages manipulative design.

I think I'd honestly rather they kept paid cosmetics separate - I still wouldn't like it, but at least the inherently addictive elements of the game have less influence on your decision to buy them. Not none mind you, but less.

locked

1854 views

This also puts them in a place where they are both trying to be "fair" to everyone as well as making money. At some point I suspect that "making money" will win out. We're already farther along than I thought -- buying things to speed up your class experience, buying up to lvl 25. Now it's buying armor, which, with light lvl 3 and the new light system, it is essentially the same as selling it at light lvl 280 like the vendors do. Lvl 3 is just marketing -- it's almost immediately equal to your greatest light level piece of that type.

Which I fully support, by the way, I just don't love it in the form of purchase-ables. They're walking right along the line on this one.

If they weren't handing out these packages other than via eververse, people would be pissed. The way they've done it now, they do the CYA thing. And they can encourage purchases with RNG-based silver packages. Even the purchased drops are RNG, which has a dirty feel to it -- it's essentially gambling.

Also, If they had a "bug" where the drops didn't work right, who is to say that they didn't rig the system to get more money? That's where it gets sticky for me -- they are working the addiction/gambling angle. It's not enough to have your mindshare and time, now they also have to have (more) money along the way.

I'm not going to quit over this or anything, but it doesn't mean I think it's a great idea either. It creates more of the "I need to play to get to X" and keeps people playing... but it's at the expense of real enjoyable gameplay. Because the gameplay is fundamentally altered -- it's about time gating and artificial scarcity rather than real achievement.

I think that's why I like trials so much. The challenge, and success, is the reward. As opposed to the drops at the end. The drops are gravy, as opposed to the end goal, which is the challenge/competition.

locked

1993 views

This also puts them in a place where they are both trying to be "fair" to everyone as well as making money. At some point I suspect that "making money" will win out. We're already farther along than I thought -- buying things to speed up your class experience, buying up to lvl 25. Now it's buying armor, which, with light lvl 3 and the new light system, it is essentially the same as selling it at light lvl 280 like the vendors do.

What I'm hearing is that it's like buying from the vendors...

Which I fully support, by the way, I just don't love it in the form of purchase-ables. They're walking right along the line on this one.

I don't fully agree with eververse either. But I also don't think it affects me in any way. Hell, PS Exclusives are more perverse in my mind than buying emotes. At least I can stay on the XBox and still get what I want for a little change.

If they weren't handing out these packages other than via eververse, people would be pissed. The way they've done it now, they do the CYA thing. And they can encourage purchases with RNG-based silver packages. Even the purchased drops are RNG, which has a dirty feel to it -- it's essentially gambling.

Hate to brake it to you but Destiny is gambling.

Also, If they had a "bug" where the drops didn't work right, who is to say that they didn't rig the system to get more money? That's where it gets sticky for me -- they are working the addiction/gambling angle. It's not enough to have your mindshare and time, now they also have to have (more) money along the way.

Okay now. Now you are saying that Bungie is evil and is trying to exploit all of its gamers. Talk about drawing lines. I sir will never proscribe to that.

I'm not going to quit over this or anything, but it doesn't mean I think it's a great idea either. It creates more of the "I need to play to get to X" and keeps people playing... but it's at the expense of real enjoyable gameplay. Because the gameplay is fundamentally altered -- it's about time gating and artificial scarcity rather than real achievement.

I'm really curious as to how the gameplay has been fundamentally altered? I see no difference in what you are saying about playing trials. "I need to play to get X" is just "I need to win 9 games without a loss to get to the lighthouse" talk about gated! I totally understand the achievement aspect, but you have to remember that for some people, getting items is the achievement.

I think that's why I like trials so much. The challenge, and success, is the reward. As opposed to the drops at the end. The drops are gravy, as opposed to the end goal, which is the challenge/competition.

locked

2072 views

This also puts them in a place where they are both trying to be "fair" to everyone as well as making money. At some point I suspect that "making money" will win out. We're already farther along than I thought -- buying things to speed up your class experience, buying up to lvl 25. Now it's buying armor, which, with light lvl 3 and the new light system, it is essentially the same as selling it at light lvl 280 like the vendors do.

What I'm hearing is that it's like buying from the vendors...

So you're saying you don't see a distinction here. Fair enough.

Which I fully support, by the way, I just don't love it in the form of purchase-ables. They're walking right along the line on this one.

I don't fully agree with eververse either. But I also don't think it affects me in any way. Hell, PS Exclusives are more perverse in my mind than buying emotes. At least I can stay on the XBox and still get what I want for a little change.

It affects everyone. That was cyber's main point and it's part of mine as well. It fundamentally changes the way that the game is developed and designed. We may or may not see this with destiny 2, but all bets are off for development that hasn't started yet. I don't see a big difference between PS4 exclusives and micro-transactions. It's monetizing the experience in the way Bungie feels is best. I just don't happen to agree with it. The fact that there is currently a distinction between the live team and the other team speaks to this being an additional revenue stream, not a vital one. It's very possible that the lines will be blurred here. Which doesn't have to be a bad thing. But would be really easy to make it a bad thing if money becomes the priority over "fun".

If they weren't handing out these packages other than via eververse, people would be pissed. The way they've done it now, they do the CYA thing. And they can encourage purchases with RNG-based silver packages. Even the purchased drops are RNG, which has a dirty feel to it -- it's essentially gambling.

Hate to brake it to you but Destiny is gambling.

Feels like you are arguing with me for argument's sake a bit here. MMO's are largely based on gambling principles. Destiny has one foot in and one foot out of this. Micro-transactions pushes it more in the direction of gambling, less in the direction of more traditional video gaming.

Gaming in general has different categories. Platformers, shooters, adventure games, etc. Gambling, until the last decade or so, hasn't been much a part of "gaming" in the video game sense, other than hardcore MMOs. That's beginning to change. I get the random drop thing, the random engram thing... it's time gating and addictive behavior building. I lost a year of my free time to world of warcraft, in a bad way. I get it. I don't love it in regards to destiny, but I understand why they do it. I think they are trying to be responsible with it. And I think it's still a mixed bag.

Adding real money in there makes it more complex. And also raise the stakes some. micro-transactions can, and I suspect do, take advantage of the addictive/random system they have created. Yes, the player has responsibility not to be stupid. But that doesn't mean that the house running the gambling isn't exploiting the player's basic human nature either.

Also, If they had a "bug" where the drops didn't work right, who is to say that they didn't rig the system to get more money? That's where it gets sticky for me -- they are working the addiction/gambling angle. It's not enough to have your mindshare and time, now they also have to have (more) money along the way.

Okay now. Now you are saying that Bungie is evil and is trying to exploit all of its gamers. Talk about drawing lines. I sir will never proscribe to that.

No, I did not say bungie was evil. I'm saying they are setting themselves up to be in a place where evil would be easy to do. I like Bungie. I like their stuff. I'm nervous about the direction they're headed here.

I'm really curious as to how the gameplay has been fundamentally altered? I see no difference in what you are saying about playing trials. "I need to play to get X" is just "I need to win 9 games without a loss to get to the lighthouse" talk about gated! I totally understand the achievement aspect, but you have to remember that for some people, getting items is the achievement.

I think that's why I like trials so much. The challenge, and success, is the reward. As opposed to the drops at the end. The drops are gravy, as opposed to the end goal, which is the challenge/competition.

I've never been to the lighthouse. At this point we get the 5 win package, sometimes the 7 win package. I play trials because it's -not- about the loot for me. The loot is fun, but like anything in destiny, it's just part of the game. Trials shines because of it's archetype. I was a huge fan of counter-strike back when it was a half-life mod, and played it for many years. It's the same thing. Your actions have direct consequences. The rest of destiny largely has no consequences. PvE -- retry as much as you like. PvP -- kill, respawn, repeat until the timer runs out then do it again.

And to be clear, adding money can definitely add to the experience. Part of the draw of the old arcade games was the addictive behavior -- how long can you make that single quarter last? Without that part of it (i.e. in an emulator or remake on a console) a number of those games lose their luster more quickly. But we're not talking about that sort of monetization here either.

One last analogy... This is like adding paid rides in disneyland. Sure, if they add an extra fee to a few rides maybe they can have more resources to build more stuff. But at the same time, if I've paid for a ticket then do I really need to continue paying to get the full disneyland experience? Doing it either way isn't really right or wrong, but it definitely impacts the experience.

So please, I'd prefer you didn't peg me as a hater, I'm not. And that's not really the point here. I don't love what micro-transactions can, and do, bring to the table in destiny. I'm happy that Bungie at this point is being more or less responsible with them. But a company is inherently amoral, and I'd hate for things to change over time skewing towards profits rather than fun.

locked

1926 views

So please, I'd prefer you didn't peg me as a hater, I'm not. And that's not really the point here. I don't love what micro-transactions can, and do, bring to the table in destiny. I'm happy that Bungie at this point is being more or less responsible with them. But a company is inherently amoral, and I'd hate for things to change over time skewing towards profits rather than fun.

Don't worry. I have tendency to play more of the devil's advocate when I debate. I also don't really peg people :)

I don't fully agree with eververse either. But I also don't think it affects me in any way. Hell, PS Exclusives are more perverse in my mind than buying emotes. At least I can stay on the XBox and still get what I want for a little change.

It affects everyone. That was cyber's main point and it's part of mine as well. It fundamentally changes the way that the game is developed and designed. We may or may not see this with destiny 2, but all bets are off for development that hasn't started yet. I don't see a big difference between PS4 exclusives and micro-transactions. It's monetizing the experience in the way Bungie feels is best. I just don't happen to agree with it. The fact that there is currently a distinction between the live team and the other team speaks to this being an additional revenue stream, not a vital one. It's very possible that the lines will be blurred here. Which doesn't have to be a bad thing. But would be really easy to make it a bad thing if money becomes the priority over "fun".

In my head, I break it down into two types of development: The long term and the short term. I think micro transactions affect the short term development but not the long term development. Micro transactions themselves might get past that "line" people keep talking about in which case it will affect the long term product because people won't buy it.

But frankly, I'm still not worried that Bungie is going to go over the line with it. Because I know that if they do that there will be such a global outrage.

Hate to brake it to you but Destiny is gambling.

Feels like you are arguing with me for argument's sake a bit here.

Yes and no. As I mentioned before, I like to play the devil's advocate. But I will get to what I mean in a second.

MMO's are largely based on gambling principles. Destiny has one foot in and one foot out of this. Micro-transactions pushes it more in the direction of gambling, less in the direction of more traditional video gaming.

Gaming in general has different categories. Platformers, shooters, adventure games, etc. Gambling, until the last decade or so, hasn't been much a part of "gaming" in the video game sense, other than hardcore MMOs. That's beginning to change. I get the random drop thing, the random engram thing... it's time gating and addictive behavior building. I lost a year of my free time to world of warcraft, in a bad way. I get it. I don't love it in regards to destiny, but I understand why they do it. I think they are trying to be responsible with it. And I think it's still a mixed bag.

In my mind gambling can be broken down into: You give a system something of value, that system does what it's supposed to do and you hope that you get something out of that system that is worth more than what you put into it. Any game with RNG is gambling. It doesn't take money to make it gambling. I mean, money is just a made up concept for your effort in the world. But I digress, whenever you go on raid you are gambling but putting in effort (value) in hopes that you will beat the boss and get something of greater value (could be fun, items or achievements). What really bugs people is when people gamble with value other than effort. This is because that is what games started with.

I am one of those people. What I'm saying is, there are two ways to gamble with the new update. 1. you can spend virtually no value gambling with free items you get weekly or 2. you can spend money to for the chance at greater value. What value people take in armor pieces that you have to spend other armor to make worth while in the game I have no idea.

Adding real money in there makes it more complex. And also raise the stakes some. micro-transactions can, and I suspect do, take advantage of the addictive/random system they have created.

Gambling is meant to be fun. I have gambled before, it was fun. Games are meant to be fun. Games have gambling aspects in them. Bungie added more with these micro-transactions. I understand that real money makes it more complex and could entice people with addictive/gambling tendencies, but for those people, they really should be playing Destiny if that is the case. That's true with any addiction.

Yes, the player has responsibility not to be stupid. But that doesn't mean that the house running the gambling isn't exploiting the player's basic human nature either.

This is what bugs me. You say that it is wrong for establishments to exploit basic human nature through gambling. I say that it both parties that are doing harm, but ultimately it's the player that is making the final decision. I know we are using casino's as a metaphor to Destiny here, but there is a huge difference. For one, Casino's in my mind are for two purposes, having fun and making money. Simply put, you are having fun by "playing" and the odds are against you to lose money. If you are going to a casino and think that's not true then you are naive. So the odds that you will lose money is your "fun" tax. Then there are people who do it to try and make money, those people should know the risk, of actually making money off of it. If they don't, they are naive as well.

This is the same for Destiny except it's even more forgiving than a casino. I give a raid as an example. There are people who raid just for fun, those people have absolutely no cost to their fun because they are not doing it for the reward. They aren't truely gambling. Then there are people who do raids for the rewards, those people also need to understand that the odds are against them (although less so than a casino).

Now, I know that we all want a better environment that doesn't trigger our "gambling" tendencies. And we have every right to fight for that. But we also can't single mindedly target one aspect of Destiny and say "that's wrong because it makes me want to do things I don't want to do" Destiny is all about risk/reward.

I would talk more about the rest of the topic, but I'm spent :)

Sorry if this is confrontational or in your face. I have a tendency to do that. Just know that I hold no ill-will towards you.

locked

1878 views

No worries, I think I read the tone wrong in your first post. It seemed to put me in a box I'd prefer not to be in. =)

Adding real money in there makes it more complex. And also raise the stakes some. micro-transactions can, and I suspect do, take advantage of the addictive/random system they have created.

Gambling is meant to be fun. I have gambled before, it was fun. Games are meant to be fun. Games have gambling aspects in them. Bungie added more with these micro-transactions. I understand that real money makes it more complex and could entice people with addictive/gambling tendencies, but for those people, they really should be playing Destiny if that is the case. That's true with any addiction.

Yes, the player has responsibility not to be stupid. But that doesn't mean that the house running the gambling isn't exploiting the player's basic human nature either.

This is what bugs me. You say that it is wrong for establishments to exploit basic human nature through gambling. I say that it both parties that are doing harm, but ultimately it's the player that is making the final decision. I know we are using casino's as a metaphor to Destiny here, but there is a huge difference. For one, Casino's in my mind are for two purposes, having fun and making money. Simply put, you are having fun by "playing" and the odds are against you to lose money. If you are going to a casino and think that's not true then you are naive. So the odds that you will lose money is your "fun" tax. Then there are people who do it to try and make money, those people should know the risk, of actually making money off of it. If they don't, they are naive as well.

This is the same for Destiny except it's even more forgiving than a casino. I give a raid as an example. There are people who raid just for fun, those people have absolutely no cost to their fun because they are not doing it for the reward. They aren't truely gambling. Then there are people who do raids for the rewards, those people also need to understand that the odds are against them (although less so than a casino).

Now, I know that we all want a better environment that doesn't trigger our "gambling" tendencies. And we have every right to fight for that. But we also can't single mindedly target one aspect of Destiny and say "that's wrong because it makes me want to do things I don't want to do" Destiny is all about risk/reward.

So I guess it changes the entire scope of gambling for me, which is the rub.

I gamble my time away with games all the time. I hope that I have a good time and that it will be worth what I put into it. But it's a pretty closed eco-system. I buy the game and then can do as much or as little as I want with it.

Micro-transactions bring a sort of real life component to gaming that I'd prefer to keep out of. I want something I can sit down and play, not something I have to pay to play with over and over. I really enjoy playing magic: the gathering. But I don't very often because it nearly always is a money game -- to play often you need to be constantly buying cards. I dont want destiny to be that kind of system -- I want to pay an entrance fee and then enjoy it. Not worry about money gates in addition to the time gates that are already in place.

locked

1928 views

Yes, the player has responsibility not to be stupid. But that doesn't mean that the house running the gambling isn't exploiting the player's basic human nature either.

This is what bugs me. You say that it is wrong for establishments to exploit basic human nature through gambling. I say that it both parties that are doing harm, but ultimately it's the player that is making the final decision. I know we are using casino's as a metaphor to Destiny here, but there is a huge difference. For one, Casino's in my mind are for two purposes, having fun and making money. Simply put, you are having fun by "playing" and the odds are against you to lose money. If you are going to a casino and think that's not true then you are naive. So the odds that you will lose money is your "fun" tax. Then there are people who do it to try and make money, those people should know the risk, of actually making money off of it. If they don't, they are naive as well.

This is the same for Destiny except it's even more forgiving than a casino. I give a raid as an example. There are people who raid just for fun, those people have absolutely no cost to their fun because they are not doing it for the reward. They aren't truely gambling. Then there are people who do raids for the rewards, those people also need to understand that the odds are against them (although less so than a casino).

Now, I know that we all want a better environment that doesn't trigger our "gambling" tendencies. And we have every right to fight for that. But we also can't single mindedly target one aspect of Destiny and say "that's wrong because it makes me want to do things I don't want to do" Destiny is all about risk/reward.

So I guess it changes the entire scope of gambling for me, which is the rub.

I gamble my time away with games all the time. I hope that I have a good time and that it will be worth what I put into it. But it's a pretty closed eco-system. I buy the game and then can do as much or as little as I want with it.

Micro-transactions bring a sort of real life component to gaming that I'd prefer to keep out of. I want something I can sit down and play, not something I have to pay to play with over and over. I really enjoy playing magic: the gathering. But I don't very often because it nearly always is a money game -- to play often you need to be constantly buying cards. I dont want destiny to be that kind of system -- I want to pay an entrance fee and then enjoy it. Not worry about money gates in addition to the time gates that are already in place.

I totally understand that. All of it. And I agree with all of it. I think we all just need to realize what we are putting into it and what we are getting out of it. Some people would rather put money instead of time into a game. I can understand that. I will never do it, but I understand it. I also understand that Bungie needs money to sustain this massive game in between Major releases. We all want to get as much value out of a game as possible.

locked

1908 views

Some people would rather put money instead of time into a game. I can understand that.

I can't understand this. The whole point of a leisure activity is to spend your time doing it. So putting time into a game is really the ONLY thing that makes sense.

locked

1919 views

Some people would rather put money instead of time into a game. I can understand that.

I can't understand this. The whole point of a leisure activity is to spend your time doing it. So putting time into a game is really the ONLY thing that makes sense.

Sorry, I should have phrased that differently.

"Some people would rather put money instead of time into a game to get where they want to be"

For a leisurely game yeah, but not all games are "leisurely". I think of it like books. There are a lot of good books, some books are really easy to pick up and read, but others no so much.

locked

1896 views

Some people would rather put money instead of time into a game. I can understand that.

I can't understand this. The whole point of a leisure activity is to spend your time doing it. So putting time into a game is really the ONLY thing that makes sense.

You love the raids. You hated the grind to get "raid-ready." In September of last year, if you could have paid $50 and been given a boost to be raid-ready from day one (instead of spending $40 and then the majority of that week grinding to get as close to 290 light as possible so you could run the raid blind right away -- which by your, and your groups', admission had you kind of burned out by the time the raid opened up), you wouldn't ponder that for at least a moment?

Even if you can tell me with a straight face that your 'integrity' would prevent you from spending a little extra money to "skip" part of the game you don't enjoy as much -- can you honestly say you don't understand how people would be willing to put a little extra money into a game in lieu of some of their time?!?

locked

1927 views

Some people would rather put money instead of time into a game. I can understand that.

I can't understand this. The whole point of a leisure activity is to spend your time doing it. So putting time into a game is really the ONLY thing that makes sense.

You love the raids. You hated the grind to get "raid-ready." In September of last year, if you could have paid $50 and been given a boost to be raid-ready from day one (instead of spending $40 and then the majority of that week grinding to get as close to 290 light as possible so you could run the raid blind right away -- which by your, and your groups', admission had you kind of burned out by the time the raid opened up), you wouldn't ponder that for at least a moment?

Even if you can tell me with a straight face that your 'integrity' would prevent you from spending a little extra money to "skip" part of the game you don't enjoy as much -- can you honestly say you don't understand how people would be willing to put a little extra money into a game in lieu of some of their time?!?

The part where these kinds of questions get tricky for me is when it comes to doing things a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th time through. I loved the experience of jumping into TTK with my hunter, playing through the story, completing all the side quests, and doing all the end game activities. I would never have wanted to skip any of it (except maybe the Hadium flake farming or the material farming for the exotic sword, but I digress ;p)

Where the temptation sneaks in for me is with my other characters. Playing TTK once was fantastic, doing it 3 times felt a fair bit more like a chore. Yes, it was completely my choice to get 3 characters all the way through, but that's "the rub". I like to have 3 different characters to play my favorite activities with... and the only way to do that is to drag 3 characters all the way through the entire game.

And that's just on PS4... I'm embarrassed to say that I've actually wished I could just throw down $30 or $40 and instantly buy a fully-leveled Xbox character. I keep poking away with my Xbox Hunter, but it takes so damn long to level all the way up from scratch. I managed to go from the very start of the game all the way to killing Oryx (in the story mission, not the raid) without even completing a single subclass on my character.

locked

1911 views

Hence why selectable difficulty and a fun progression are the way to go. On your second character, you're already kind of good at the game, and so can have the beginning game be more challenging for you.

locked

1904 views

Some people would rather put money instead of time into a game. I can understand that.

I can't understand this. The whole point of a leisure activity is to spend your time doing it. So putting time into a game is really the ONLY thing that makes sense.

You love the raids. You hated the grind to get "raid-ready." In September of last year, if you could have paid $50 and been given a boost to be raid-ready from day one (instead of spending $40 and then the majority of that week grinding to get as close to 290 light as possible so you could run the raid blind right away -- which by your, and your groups', admission had you kind of burned out by the time the raid opened up), you wouldn't ponder that for at least a moment?

Even if you can tell me with a straight face that your 'integrity' would prevent you from spending a little extra money to "skip" part of the game you don't enjoy as much -- can you honestly say you don't understand how people would be willing to put a little extra money into a game in lieu of some of their time?!?

The part where these kinds of questions get tricky for me is when it comes to doing things a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th time through. I loved the experience of jumping into TTK with my hunter, playing through the story, completing all the side quests, and doing all the end game activities. I would never have wanted to skip any of it (except maybe the Hadium flake farming or the material farming for the exotic sword, but I digress ;p)

Where the temptation sneaks in for me is with my other characters. Playing TTK once was fantastic, doing it 3 times felt a fair bit more like a chore. Yes, it was completely my choice to get 3 characters all the way through, but that's "the rub". I like to have 3 different characters to play my favorite activities with... and the only way to do that is to drag 3 characters all the way through the entire game.

And that's just on PS4... I'm embarrassed to say that I've actually wished I could just throw down $30 or $40 and instantly buy a fully-leveled Xbox character. I keep poking away with my Xbox Hunter, but it takes so damn long to level all the way up from scratch. I managed to go from the very start of the game all the way to killing Oryx (in the story mission, not the raid) without even completing a single subclass on my character.

The slow-motion subclass leveling is the only thing that keeps me from deleting a character and playing the game from scratch. I'd love to have the full game experience now that it's all been questified. My "youngest" character is my PS4 titan. Despite having played through all the mainline story missions in the game, she doesn't even have a blessings bubble yet, despite being ready for KF hard mode in every other respect.

locked

1890 views

- No text -

locked

1924 views

I feel like all of this info that's come out for this upcoming update shows that Bungie is finally starting to get it, give or take a few things. It's still not perfect, sure, but I feel like Destiny is going to suck a lot less with regards to the ways it currently sucks. And that's across the board. The fact that infusion isn't absolutely stupid anymore is an ubelievably huge improvement.

With regards to people paying not to play, we're not there yet. This rather interesting implementation of microtransactions to the overall concept of giving people the stuff at each reset (give or take RNG, assuming that the RNG isn't rigged to try to get people to buy stuff or designed to make the game more player-hostile than it previously was) will not necessarily lead to doom. Now, if 335 armors start dropping in these things, and if weapons start dropping in these things, then there's the potential for a problem.

Dare I say, I think we're okay and that this update will do a lot of good for everyone playing. If that slippery slope does happen to show up in the future with regards to buying victory or other such things, I'll be sure to be one of the first ranting against it and wishing epic doom failure upon Bungie and Destiny. I'm not convinced that this is a step in that direction. Yet.

locked

1964 views

I think the fact that they drop at 3 light makes it OK. I mean, you still have to have some OTHER piece of armor drop at a usable light level in order to use them effectively, so really you're just waiting on the same RNG drop you would have needed anyway. You're getting an extra shot at a roll as far as cosmetic appearance and perks, but you are not getting an extra roll with regard to light level, if that makes sense.

locked

1878 views

SRL had a 3 light helmet, as well as a full set of cosmetic gear, sparrow, and shader that you could ONLY get by paying $10. Sure you now get random items out of a set of 12, but you get 3 free every week, one without even doing anything aside from logging into the game. A path to receive gear for free is in my personal opinion an improvement over being forced to pay for it if you want it.

locked

1952 views

- No text -

locked

1926 views

This may have already been brought up, so apologies if I'm repeating things here. This week's Planet Destiny podcast just came out, and the hosts made a very good point about this new system. One of the items that can drop from these new packages is a Rep booster that increases your gains with the Crucible and Vanguard vendors. We know that the only way to get the freshly reintroduced Year 1 Legendary weapons is from rep packages from the vendors.

So...

Players can now spend real money to get rep boosters which will help them get new weapons faster/more often.

Personally, I wouldn't say it is the end of the world but it is absolutely a step over the line. A bit problematic at the very least.

locked

1881 views

This may have already been brought up, so apologies if I'm repeating things here. This week's Planet Destiny podcast just came out, and the hosts made a very good point about this new system. One of the items that can drop from these new packages is a Rep booster that increases your gains with the Crucible and Vanguard vendors. We know that the only way to get the freshly reintroduced Year 1 Legendary weapons is from rep packages from the vendors.

So...

Players can now spend real money to get rep boosters which will help them get new weapons faster/more often.

Personally, I wouldn't say it is the end of the world but it is absolutely a step over the line. A bit problematic at the very least.

I'd say your almost looking for reasons to be offended at this point. At the very least, "over the line" has moved from paying real money to get a weapon, to paying real money to have a chance to get a minor boost to leveling up a vendor who might give you a weapon. I wonder where it will shift to next...

Someone might get stuff slightly faster than I do? But they still have to play the game and likely have to sacrifice existing weapons to make their classics viable? Where's that WHO THE HELL CARES graphic when I need it?

locked

1895 views

This may have already been brought up, so apologies if I'm repeating things here. This week's Planet Destiny podcast just came out, and the hosts made a very good point about this new system. One of the items that can drop from these new packages is a Rep booster that increases your gains with the Crucible and Vanguard vendors. We know that the only way to get the freshly reintroduced Year 1 Legendary weapons is from rep packages from the vendors.

So...

Players can now spend real money to get rep boosters which will help them get new weapons faster/more often.

Personally, I wouldn't say it is the end of the world but it is absolutely a step over the line. A bit problematic at the very least.

I'd say your almost looking for reasons to be offended at this point. At the very least, "over the line" has moved from paying real money to get a weapon, to paying real money to have a chance to get a minor boost to leveling up a vendor who might give you a weapon. I wonder where it will shift to next...

Someone might get stuff slightly faster than I do? But they still have to play the game and likely have to sacrifice existing weapons to make their classics viable? Where's that WHO THE HELL CARES graphic when I need it?

Maybe I came off as more upset about this than I am... I'm not worked up about it at all. None of us know what the drop rates are going to be like, none of us know how big (or not big) of a deal this will be until we see it in practice.

All I'm saying is that conceptually, the fact that people can pay extra money to get guns more often just feels gross to me. Again, not a big deal. I just don't like that it is yet another step towards a situation that I'd like to see Bungie avoid.

locked

1891 views

Sorry I was late! I only just saw your post, and apparently Crazed didn't, so yeah. :P

[image]

locked

1850 views

Bungie mentioned boosters will drop elsewhere, not just in Sterling Treasure. (Source)

While I definitely understand the concern, the sheer amount of money one would have to spend for the CHANCE to temporarily increase the amount of rep they receive until they got the weapon they want is probably why Bungie is not concerned about this as P2W.

locked

1885 views

- No text -

locked

1870 views

Bungie mentioned boosters will drop elsewhere, not just in Sterling Treasure. (Source)

While I definitely understand the concern, the sheer amount of money one would have to spend for the CHANCE to temporarily increase the amount of rep they receive until they got the weapon they want is probably why Bungie is not concerned about this as P2W.

You might just end up with a Devil You Know with Vacuum and Fighter (aim behind cover). Cruel fails to see how ridiculous that complaint is, so let's put it into perspective:

You pay real money for:

A slight chance to get the correct booster,
Which has a slight chance to grant a weapon when you level a faction,
Which has a slight chance to be the weapon that you wanted,
Which has a slight chance to be the roll that you wanted.

How many Imago Loops has Nico gotten, again? And he still doesn't have a good roll?

Heck, the pool of Halloween masks was fairly small, and people paid Thousands of Silver without getting the Blue Skull. I think we're going to be okay.

locked

1907 views

Bungie mentioned boosters will drop elsewhere, not just in Sterling Treasure. (Source)

While I definitely understand the concern, the sheer amount of money one would have to spend for the CHANCE to temporarily increase the amount of rep they receive until they got the weapon they want is probably why Bungie is not concerned about this as P2W.

You might just end up with a Devil You Know with Vacuum and Fighter (aim behind cover). Cruel fails to see how ridiculous that complaint is, so let's put it into perspective:

You pay real money for:

A slight chance to get the correct booster,
Which has a slight chance to grant a weapon when you level a faction,
Which has a slight chance to be the weapon that you wanted,
Which has a slight chance to be the roll that you wanted.

How many Imago Loops has Nico gotten, again? And he still doesn't have a good roll?

Heck, the pool of Halloween masks was fairly small, and people paid Thousands of Silver without getting the Blue Skull. I think we're going to be okay.

Korny, you're missing the point. Yes, getting good rolls may be extremely rare. But that will be the case for ALL PLAYERS. The difference is that players who don't pay extra are capped to 3 packages per week. That's 3 chances at these boosters per week. People who pay money will get more than 3 chances. Therefore they will have better chances at getting more weapons and more opportunities to get the roll they want. The question at this point is "will it be enough of a difference to matter in any way?". We don't know. But the fact that people who buy packages get any advantage, even if it is a teeny tiny one, is crossing a line that bungie has not crossed before. And it feels gross to me. That's all.

locked

1879 views

Bungie mentioned boosters will drop elsewhere, not just in Sterling Treasure. (Source)

While I definitely understand the concern, the sheer amount of money one would have to spend for the CHANCE to temporarily increase the amount of rep they receive until they got the weapon they want is probably why Bungie is not concerned about this as P2W.

Yes, I'm aware that buying these packages is not the only source for these boosters. I'd also point out that just as it is premature for people to freak out about "how quickly people will be able to buy their way to new weapons", it is just as premature to defend the system by talking about the "the sheer amount of money one would have to spend for the CHANCE to temporarily increase the amount of rep they receive until they got the weapon they want". The truth is we don't know either way. These rep booster could be rare drops, or they could be incredibly common. If they are commonly found in these packages, then those who buy packages on a regular basis will be able to race through their vanguard ranks substantially faster than players who don't spend money and are capped to 3 packages per week.

Again, I'm not freaking out about anything. I'm not upset. I just don't like that this is even a possibility in Destiny. It definitely feels to me like Bungie/Activision are slowly, carefully pushing the line a bit further with each update, seeing what they can get away with.

locked

1906 views

Yes, I'm aware that buying these packages is not the only source for these boosters. I'd also point out that just as it is premature for people to freak out about "how quickly people will be able to buy their way to new weapons", it is just as premature to defend the system by talking about the "the sheer amount of money one would have to spend for the CHANCE to temporarily increase the amount of rep they receive until they got the weapon they want". The truth is we don't know either way. These rep booster could be rare drops, or they could be incredibly common.

I don't think it's premature at all. Bungie has showed us exactly what's possible drops in each package, and the reputation boosters are 3 options out of 14 possible bonus drops you'd get in addition to armor, and we also know they each cost $2. I'm only making 2 assumptions, which are not terribly large assumptions: drops from Sterling Treasure are equally weighted, and from the wording Bungie used on the stream that the items on the right don't even drop every time. All evidence points to those being the case, assuming otherwise is making a bigger assumption.

All that said, I know you're not incredibly worried about it, and not trying to imply it, I was just pointing out things that weren't mentioned in your post so that people would be aware of them.

locked

1916 views

[image]

locked

1896 views

The big deal for me is how this conversation comes pre tainted. You didn't do it, but when others practically open the discussion by suggesting that we can no longer trust Bungie to make the game fun... yeah a little proactive defense seems appropriate.

In the end, you got the The Devil You Know you wanted or whatever. So what? These guns are mostly just familiar names. Unless something is very screwy, they will not give anyone an advantage.

locked

1895 views

The big deal for me is how this conversation comes pre tainted. You didn't do it, but when others practically open the discussion by suggesting that we can no longer trust Bungie to make the game fun... yeah a little proactive defense seems appropriate.

In the end, you got the The Devil You Know you wanted or whatever. So what? These guns are mostly just familiar names. Unless something is very screwy, they will not give anyone an advantage.

I almost completely agree. A lot of this stuff gets blown out of proportion. But this stuff does bother me on a conceptual level. I'm starting to feel like Bungie and/or Activision are playing a game of Chicken with the player base. Like they're staring us in the eye while they inch closer and closer to something they know we don't like, and they're just waiting to see if we blow up in a way that tells them they've gone too far.

For the record, when I say "Bungie is doing X", I know full well that there are hundreds of incredibly hard working people who are focused on nothing more than making the best game they can make. But there are forces at play here (marketing forces, for the most part) that feel to me like they're trying to see how much they can get away with.

I also just cringe at the idea that there's going to be some lunatic who spends $500 on packages as soon as the update hits, and streams the whole thing. It's not representative of what the real experience will be like for the vast majority of players, but it becomes "the thing people will talk about". On the one hand, that doesn't really matter, but on the other it sucks to see cool new stuff get eclipsed my such nonsense in terms of what gets the most public attention. Jeff Gertsman once described Destiny's problems as "death by 1000 tiny cuts", and I think issues like this are exactly the kind of thing he was talking about: insignificant on its own, but it continues to build the perception that Bungie and Activision are gauging the player bass. I don't feel that way myself, but I have a lot of friends who still feel like they were "ripped off" by year 1, and every little move like this drives them further away from ever wanting to come back.

locked

1881 views

I spent quite a bit extra on Mass Effect 3's micro transaction system during the first year of that game. Had to have the ~~Defender Titan~~ Asari Justicar and N7 Shadow, to name a few. Probably spent at least another $60 on the game. Really I'd estimate closer to $100 or more. Amusingly, I don't think the random drops I paid for ever actually got me the classes or guns I was looking for!

But the thing was, I was happy to spend the money. I was spending to try and get the new classes early, but each time they released a new set of classes, weapons, and maps I handed over a good $5 to $10 in appreciation of the ongoing support and content. (Remember, the weekly balance updates and all other content was free.)

I've been doing similar with Destiny. I bought the Ghost edition initially because I wanted that physical Ghost. It's my 2nd favorite extra to ever come with a game. (Halsey's Journal being the first, of course.) And, like basically everyone, I paid for The Taken King. But I also pitched in a few dollars for the Sparrow Racing League, and at least the minimum amount for the 2nd Festival of the Lost. Again, not so much because I wanted a blue flame-y mask (I never actually got it) but because it's my way of showing thanks for and hopefully encouraging continued support and updates.

I do agree that whether or not we've crossed a Pay to Win line, it is probably detrimental to the perception of the game any time Bungie does something that causes the discussion to pop back up. Maybe it wouldn't be so much of an issue if it had been in at the start? I'm not going to drag up the sources right now, but the concepts of micro transactions were discussed by Bungie before Destiny's launch. I'm fairly certain that emotes being things we pay for was in the original concept for Destiny as well. Remember the Wizard Ice Bucket Challenge video? It ended with a Guardian performing the Slow Clap emote something like two years before we got access to it...

But getting back to the point, if Destiny had launched with stronger content (like the higher quality mission of The Taken King) and had launched with the micro transactions from the beginning I wonder if people would have been driven away. A few, of course, but I think most would recognize that you couldn't actually Pay to Win and the content of the game (in addition to the always strong movement / gunplay) would have lead most to accept the selling of emotes and reputation boosters and so on and would have caused much less of a stir than this sorta gradual phasing in of additional ways to Pay.

Or, at the very least, we would have had this conversation two years ago and people would made their decisions to stay or leave Destiny by now... :)

locked

1921 views

Mass Effect 3 is a really interesting case.

I hear lots of press complain about the F2P-style monetization... but only from those who didn't really play the game. Everyone I talk to who actually spent time with ME3's multiplayer seems to love the way BioWare handled their support of the game, myself included. Yet the buzz around Destiny is constantly negative or at least contentious. I think you already nailed one of the reasons: Many players felt let down by Destiny (even some of those who ultimately love the game). ME3's multiplayer was a happy surprise for the fan base. Most people didn't expect it to be any good, yet it ended up being one of the highlights of the game. But I don't think that is the only reason for the differences in perception.

BioWare never charged a dime for any of the follow-up Multiplayer content. And yet, it was all really good despite being free. Bungie has had more mixed results with the content they've added to Destiny, both paid and free. TTK was the only update that seems to have made the majority of the community happy, at that cost $40-$60 (not that any of the ME3 MP content was anywhere close to the scale of TTK, but you get my point).

There is also the common perception that Destiny is a bit stingy when it comes to giving out loot to the player. We've got people playing thousands of games of Iron Banner reporting a 1%-2% drop rate for IB gear, and that's just 1 of many examples. So I get why some people feel their blood pressure rising at the very suggestion of paying extra money for any kind of loot, cosmetic or not. ME3 didn't have that problem. New gear came easily and often, even without buying the packs. Plus, there wasn't nearly as much gear to acquire in ME3, which I think worked to the game's advantage. Even though the drops were RNG based, the loot pool was small enough that you could get all the gear in the game without spending ludicrous amounts of time grinding. Finally, ME3 had no PvP component... it was purely co-operative. I think any game with a competitive mode will come under extra scrutiny when any whiff of a "pay to win" scenario comes along.

Like you, I spent a decent chunk of money on ME3 microtransactions, but I was getting so much fun and so many hours of enjoyment from it that I was more than happy to throw some love at the developers. I never cared what specific characters or items I got from the packages, because I knew I'd have them all within a month or so.

locked

1916 views

We've got people playing thousands of games of Iron Banner reporting a 1%-2% drop rate for IB gear, and that's just 1 of many examples.

That doesn't seem right at all. (Maybe it was right 5 months ago; my short-term memory is not what it used to be.)

So far, this Iron Banner, I've played 52 games. I've had no weapon drops yet, but I've gotten 6 chests, 2 arms, 1 helmet.

That's WAY higher than 1-2%.

locked

1915 views

We've got people playing thousands of games of Iron Banner reporting a 1%-2% drop rate for IB gear, and that's just 1 of many examples.

That doesn't seem right at all. (Maybe it was right 5 months ago; my short-term memory is not what it used to be.)

So far, this Iron Banner, I've played 52 games. I've had no weapon drops yet, but I've gotten 6 chests, 2 arms, 1 helmet.

That's WAY higher than 1-2%.

It sounds low to me too. I'd need to read through the thread more thoroughly (it's a MASSIVE wall of text). It's possible they're tracking 1%-2% drop rate per item, which sounds closer to my anecdotal experience.

locked

1938 views

We've got people playing thousands of games of Iron Banner reporting a 1%-2% drop rate for IB gear, and that's just 1 of many examples.

That doesn't seem right at all. (Maybe it was right 5 months ago; my short-term memory is not what it used to be.)

So far, this Iron Banner, I've played 52 games. I've had no weapon drops yet, but I've gotten 6 chests, 2 arms, 1 helmet.

That's WAY higher than 1-2%.

Yeah they made an update in November to fix this Iron Banner issue, I specifically remember them discussing it, and here's the patch notes that mention it. And the relevant text:

Iron Banner
* Increased drop rate for Legendary Gear in the Iron Banner playlist
* Increased Iron Banner reputation gain from games by 20%
* Added a package at Ranks 3 & Rank 5 that grants additional rewards to the player
* Known issue: Some of the items from the Rank 5 package will not be awarded when you open it until you return to orbit
* Added an Iron Banner Ghost Shell that can also drop in the playlist at Rank 5
* Gear that buffs Iron Banner Faction reputation gain now have corresponding perk description and icons
* Fixed an issue where Tempered Buff was not correctly appearing in the Character Screen

locked

1903 views

It's very interesting how people consistently appreciate and praise the tiny things game makers get right, but then forget to condemn the little throngs the get wrong. We see success by a thousand tiny massages, yet miss the death by small cuts.

locked

1883 views

I mean, isn't that kinda a bold claim to make? Especially at the end of a topic that is ultimately discussing whether a move by a game dev is yet another small cut keeping people away from a game?

locked

1879 views

I mean, isn't that kinda a bold claim to make? Especially at the end of a topic that is ultimately discussing whether a move by a game dev is yet another small cut keeping people away from a game?

I'd agree. Especially in Destiny's case. All we see is the thousand cuts. It's all anyone ever talks about since Destiny launched. It's a non-stop hissy fit (by the community at large). A lot of it is warranted, but there's a reason this is the only Destiny related place I visit on the internet.

locked

1873 views

Back to the forum index

RSS Feed of thread

DBO Forums

Toe over the P2W line (Destiny)