I can't even begin to describe how enraged / fed up I am with the Stormcaller's Stormtrance Super. It can kill you without a line of sight via arcing, it lets them teleport to dodge attacks, it's faster than any of my characters can run, it seems to last forever, it can blind you when activated, and worst of all is the single thing I absolutely hate the most about Destiny: Landfall.

I am completely at a loss why Bungie gave the Stormcaller basically the powers of every other class all wrapped into one Super. Think about it: My Striker Titan can smash a point for area of effect damage. His signature ability. The Stormcaller can do basically the same attack and then can float around the map killing several more enemies!

Today, as a Defender, I faced down an incoming Warlock and fired up my Armor of Light bubble at the appropriate moment only to have it immediately jumped over, destroyed by Landfall, I jumped and avoided the Stormcaller for a moment but he just waited patiently for me to land then killed me and went on to kill two or three more teammates.

I've had it.

I've had it with my Defender putting up his "aim here" bubble that lets the enemy know where to fire their supers to kill me. And I've had it with Stormcallers and their infinite duration, does everything Super.

If the Defender does not get some actual attention (what the hell good does having my melee and grenade back do when the Landfall, Golden Gun, Fist of Havoc, Nova Bomb, Stormtrance indirect arcing, Hammers of Sol aimed at a Sunbreaker's feat, or rapid fire grenades from a Sunsinger all can kill the bubble and me?!) and if the Stormcaller doesn't get nerved into the ground then, quite simply, I quit.

Or, let me put it this way:

My Xbox Live subscription is already cancelled, it just hasn't run out yet.

Fix your shit, Bungie.

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I agree with most of what you said, and also concur that Defenders need to be looked at -- a bubble should be a hearth, I'm semi-willing to accept that another titan can destroy it, but I do feel bubbles should be invulnerable to other classes….

Stormcallers are pretty good in Control, but nobody runs them in Trials.

I agree with most of what you said, and also concur that Defenders need to be looked at -- a bubble should be a hearth, I'm semi-willing to accept that another titan can destroy it, but I do feel bubbles should be invulnerable to other classes….

I wouldn't go so far, but definitely take an entire Super's charge to break it.

Stormcallers are pretty good in Control, but nobody runs them in Trials.

I've seen it, but the self res is far more popular there. It's the get out of jail free card. In 6v6 the stormtrance makes more sense because you have more targets to kill and more teammates to charge your super.

Yes, like hammers pre-nerf, stormtrance really is way better then the other Y1 supers, and needs to get revised. The perk that lets it last a full 20 seconds is especially galling for a super that can wipe people with little recourse.

Of course you could have gotten a suppression grenade off to shut them down.

My hunter is especially jealous, since Bladedance is slower, has a shorter duration, wonky hit detection, creates fewer orbs and you have to be in melee range. Showstopper doesn't even kill in one hit and doesn't pop bubbles.

I understand the power of the Defender. Here's last night:

What makes me mad is my Super cannot kill, and requires me to perform complex, perfectly timed maneuvers, to defeat any other Super while the Stormcallers just have to point in my general direction (sometimes, other times they just shoot a friendly near me from around a corner!) and hold down their trigger to destroy my bubble and kill me. And that's if they didn't pop the bubble in the very first instant their super activates!

I don't want an invincible bubble. I do want an end to the bullshit of a 20 second Super canceling my Super in its first tenth of a second...

And yep, Arc Blade is so underpowered compared to Stormtrance in both PvE and PvP. It's stupid watching a pair of Stormcallers mop up entire waves of Prison of Elders with their lightening arcing into three enemies at once while my Bladedancer might barely be able to kill two enemies total per super.

Yeah, I need to use the suppression grenade more. I had a W.T.F. moment last night playing trials. Took me a while to figure out what happened. I totally didn't see the grenade.

That was an amazing throw, he landed that grenade right next to you.

Also, I don't play multiplayer much, if at all. But...you're a Bubble titan? And you're bitching about getting you're ass kicked?

I kid.

I kid.

Well kinda.

Now excuse me, I must endeavor to create the ultimate beard balm in order to appease the greatest warlock mystery of them all.

OH GREAT AND MIGHTY SAGE! MERCY! MERCY! D:
I WAS ONLY HAVING MORE FUN THEN EVERYONE ELSE!
OH GREAT AND MIGHTY SAGE! BEARD OF GREATNESS!
IT'S NOT MY FAULT THEY CHOOSE POORLY!
THEY HAD THREE CHANCES OF TWO OR THREE OH MIGHTY SAGE!
SOME WENT WITH THE TEMPER-TANTRUM!
SOME WENT WITH THE COFFIN!
SOME WENT WITH... Actually the Fire Hammers are at least sort of cool. I guess I can't say much about that. ...uhhh... where was I.

Oh! *Ahem*

SOME WENT WITH SHINY GUNS THAT MISS!
SOME WENT WITH ELECTRIC BUTTERFLYS!
SOME WENT WITH... Actually the Void Traps are at least sort of cool. I guess I can't say much about that. ...uhhh... where was I.

Oh! *AHEM*

BUT THE TRUE CHOICE WAS THERE ALL ALONG!
THEY COULD HAVE CHOSEN TO RAIN EXSPLOSIVE DEATH FROM THE SKY!
TO MOCK DEATH BEYOND A GREATER PLANE!
TO UNDERSTAND POWUH! UNLIMITED POWUH!

ALSO... That DEEJ guy is pretty smart. Nice guy. Good with kids. You wouldn't want to make him sad.

THEY COULD HAVE CHOSEN KNOWLEDGE BUT INSTEAD CHOOSE IGNORANCE!

IN CONCLUSION OH MIGHTY SAGE!
It's not my fault they are dumb. Nah nah nah nah nah. :P

PRAISED BE THE BEARD!
SOMETHING SOMETHING SOMETHING COMPLETE.
The end.

;) :P

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Stormcallers have no range. If you are mid to long range they can't hurt you. With anything. They can just sit and sputter.

landfall's radius is smaller than a titan smash's radius but a decent amount. It also does less damage. I kill people I'm targetting with landfall about 50% of the time. probably 30% of the time I die because I'm trying to get close enough to do landfall instead of popping it and using lightning to kill them.

For PvP I stack better lightning chaining with health regen + extra long super (if my grenade and melee charge is up, something that can be hard to accomplish, making me be much more intentional about my super). I also have the damage while near you perk on, which helps a little.

It's not overpowered. As a warlock you give up an awful lot to be able to get that magic 15 seconds or so. Countering it does need to be intentional, and you won't always be able to do it. Just like any number of other supers for other classes.

Looks like something's coming.

Looks like something's coming.

I heard they were nerfing Sunsingers

Remember the Plague of Thorns? That got Bungie's attention and they nerfed not just Thorn, but ALL HC's right back into their holsters.

Want to "fix" Stormtrance?

EVERYONE run Stormcaller ALL THE TIME. :P

Although, it appears they've already got something cooking to deal with Warlocks, so I guess we'll just wait and see. ;)

A Bad Juju-wielding Stormcaller with Electrostatic Mind can turn that thing on a LOT of times in a single 6v6 match.

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Sunsingers are very good in Trials (although really more because of viking funeral than the self-revive), but Stormcallers are not. The reverse is mostly true for 6v6. In high level PvE Defenders are indespensible, but in Crucible they are forgettable.

So how does Bungie balance subclasses not only between PvE and PvP, but between the quite disparate modes of PvP? So far they've been content to allow a clear heirarchy form in each different mode, which I believe is the right choice. As long as each subclass has one area where it is top tier, that's a reasonable setup (and perhaps by that logic Bladedancers could use a look).

Crucible in Destiny is a dynamic battleground that rewards smart aggression or trap-style defense. It makes sense that a static super like the Defender bubble isn't especially consistently effective in that scenario. Luckily, Titans have two other subclasses that are perfectly viable for any PvP mode.

Passive supers will always be at a disadvantage in a kill based mode. It takes some skill to use Defender to the fullest. If anything, I would rank it as one of the hardest supers to use in PVP, but Control is one of the modes where it shines. My experience has been that the bubble is a magnet for enemy supers and you should expect them and keep those suppression grenades handy.

Really, the big game changer supers were Sunbreaker and Stormcaller, and now just stormcaller. Both are very low skill, high reward. the changes to sunbreaker made it more dangerous to use, I think stormcaller is in need of the same.

What makes me mad is my Super cannot kill, and requires me to perform complex, perfectly timed maneuvers, to defeat any other Super while the Stormcallers just have to point in my general direction (sometimes, other times they just shoot a friendly near me from around a corner!) and hold down their trigger to destroy my bubble and kill me. And that's if they didn't pop the bubble in the very first instant their super activates!

I don't want an invincible bubble. I do want an end to the bullshit of a 20 second Super canceling my Super in its first tenth of a second...

And yep, Arc Blade is so underpowered compared to Stormtrance in both PvE and PvP. It's stupid watching a pair of Stormcallers mop up entire waves of Prison of Elders with their lightening arcing into three enemies at once while my Bladedancer might barely be able to kill two enemies total per super.

Can we please have Bubbles be a touch overpowered for a little bit in PvP? Maybe just for a month?

What changes could be made to make bubbles just a little over powered, but not too much? Or maybe ways they could be used offensively? Aside from placing them right in Slycrel's way, that's almost always offensive.
- Deplete 1/3 of the opponents health caught in the bubble on deployment?
- Temporary suppression when entering a bubble?
- AoE damage when the bubble goes away?

What makes me mad is my Super cannot kill, and requires me to perform complex, perfectly timed maneuvers, to defeat any other Super while the Stormcallers just have to point in my general direction (sometimes, other times they just shoot a friendly near me from around a corner!) and hold down their trigger to destroy my bubble and kill me. And that's if they didn't pop the bubble in the very first instant their super activates!

I don't want an invincible bubble. I do want an end to the bullshit of a 20 second Super canceling my Super in its first tenth of a second...

And yep, Arc Blade is so underpowered compared to Stormtrance in both PvE and PvP. It's stupid watching a pair of Stormcallers mop up entire waves of Prison of Elders with their lightening arcing into three enemies at once while my Bladedancer might barely be able to kill two enemies total per super.

Can we please have Bubbles be a touch overpowered for a little bit in PvP? Maybe just for a month?

What changes could be made to make bubbles just a little over powered, but not too much? Or maybe ways they could be used offensively? Aside from placing them right in Slycrel's way, that's almost always offensive.
- Deplete 1/3 of the opponents health caught in the bubble on deployment?
- Temporary suppression when entering a bubble?
- AoE damage when the bubble goes away?

I would make it so that the bubble returned damage to the user who shot the outside of it. It would mean you could actually keep people from firing at it. Or, if you are good enough you could pop it when you see an incoming projectile.

Sunsingers are very good in Trials (although really more because of viking funeral than the self-revive), but Stormcallers are not. The reverse is mostly true for 6v6. In high level PvE Defenders are indespensible, but in Crucible they are forgettable.

So how does Bungie balance subclasses not only between PvE and PvP, but between the quite disparate modes of PvP? So far they've been content to allow a clear heirarchy form in each different mode, which I believe is the right choice. As long as each subclass has one area where it is top tier, that's a reasonable setup (and perhaps by that logic Bladedancers could use a look).

Crucible in Destiny is a dynamic battleground that rewards smart aggression or trap-style defense. It makes sense that a static super like the Defender bubble isn't especially consistently effective in that scenario. Luckily, Titans have two other subclasses that are perfectly viable for any PvP mode.

I really don't like the "oh, it's crap for PvP, just use the other classes" line of thinking. There's so many minor things that could be done to improve Ward of Dawn to make it not a death trap vs the other Supers. Make it completely block a Nova Bomb like it does an individual Golden Gun shot. Give it enough HP to make Titans Hammer of Sol-ing their feet while in your bubble a bad idea. Perhaps it a Suppression effect that affects enemies while they are in the bubble at the expense of the shield buffs. Heck, maybe have an option that sacrifices the bubble completely for something like a 2x power version of Force Barrier to trade strong static defense for weaker mobile personal defense.

Oh, and start counting all kills made with Ward of Dawn buffs count as Super kills so Defender Titans aren't excluded from or significantly limited in completing "get super kills" or "get ability kills" Bounties... and Exotic Sword quests...

Really, the Defender is a powerful Crucible class, but the scoring system does not do nearly enough to recognize that power (no points for Super kills, or kills while buffed, etc) and the interaction between Ward of Dawn and just about every other Super is woefully biased against the Defender. All it would take is a slight nudge here and there to fix these problems. :(

The fact that it combines the powers of Arc Blade (+chaining) with Fist of Havoc should immediately tell you something is wrong with Stormtrance's design. Heck, I seem to recall calling that out based just The Taken King's early trailers.

Or, put it this way, if a Titan could smash your team then continue Supering them across the map for another 10 or 15 seconds would that be ok?

It's not so much getting my ass kicked. I play a very competent Defender and generally don't have much trouble getting a positive k/d. I even believe what Bungie said about a well played Defender changing the course of a game. It's the Stormcaller that's the main problem here. But, it doesn't much help that Bungie's solution to Defenders basically not being used in the Crucible and having the lowest k/d was to recharge the melee and grenade abilities the instant before they and their Ward of Dawn are destroyed... Grenades and Melee don't help when I'm already dead...

The fact that it combines the powers of Arc Blade (+chaining) with Fist of Havoc should immediately tell you something is wrong with Stormtrance's design. Heck, I seem to recall calling that out based just The Taken King's early trailers.

This is interesting to me. Of the 3 new classes stormcaller is least interesting to me. The flavor is great, not as much the function. I've grown to like it, but it's not perfect by any means. When it was new I felt overpowered. Now it's as hit or miss as any other super I use from any other class.

Or, put it this way, if a Titan could smash your team then continue Supering them across the map for another 10 or 15 seconds would that be ok?

Uh, can't they already do that using hammers and sunspots?

I get that this is a rant thread. I agree that stormcallers can be frustrating at times. So can a number of other supers. I guess I jumped in because people were crying "nerf!" I don't know that stormcaller will get used much at all with a substantial nerf. I already don't use it much for trials or small-group PvP. If I list longer chaining it would be okay, but not great. If I lost damage I probably wouldn't use it much at all.

Stormcallers have no range. If you are mid to long range they can't hurt you. With anything. They can just sit and sputter.

I am constantly amazed at how simply sprinting away can save your life against a bunch of different supers. They can't catch you if you are sprinting.

I think maybe storm callers are fast enough to catch you? If not their ranged super will still usually get you before you can get away. Even my Titan skate to get away from blade dancers won't save me from a storm caller usually.

You have to be a pretty significant distance away (30-40m) and already hauling ass to stay clear of any chaining.

You have to be a pretty significant distance away (30-40m) and already hauling ass to stay clear of any chaining.

I've found that even if I'm closer than that, if I sprint away, even if I'm caught I've wasted a significant amount of his super, and if I'm lucky (or smart) and have run in a direction that's where none of my teammates are, he can't even get back to use the rest of it. So I die, yes, but he's wasted his super on me alone.

(To be fair, this happens 20% of the time, at best. :) )

I don't really have an issue with stormcallers, I've seen every super clean house at somepoint, with the exception of Defenders of course.

I've never really felt that my Defender was under-powered or at a disadvantage because of my play-style, and that I also know what I'm getting into with a defender. My job is to support my team by covering/capturing control points, or by getting those clutch revives, or by producing orbs to feed my hungry Hunters and Warlocks, or making sure we snag that heavy.

Sure my bubble can be destroyed by most supers, but if a guy has to waste a super to kill me all by my little self, I see that as a win. Now he can't get that triple anymore.

I think having the Y2 No Backup Plans has really improved the Defender and the extra nade and melee do help as well. One of the biggest improvements a Defender needs though is the nades. Suppression really is the best choice for PvP, maybe give it a bigger radius. The little purple sparkler need some serious love. Increase the length of its damage range, and its duration or damage output. Make the Magnetic grenade work like the trap version of the void Hunter's smoke. I'd love to stick it to a control point and have someone walk over it. :) Hell, or just make it stick to anything without the trap delay.

I'd also like to see an increase to the damage buff for weapon of light. As of now, it's not a good option in PvP at all.

Generally, yes, it takes a lot of an enemy Super to kill the bubble and Defender. Throwing down Ward of Dawn right after a Hubter lights up Golden Gun or Arc Blade might not save your life but will probably do a ton to prevent you team from all getting wiped out. Sunbreaker Titans feel like they have slightly more damage potential (more hammers) but still you can delay them and waste their Super.

But, again, last night I watched a Stormcaller destroy my Ward of Dawn without even attacking it (via Landfall), kill me, and then watched him go off and kill another two or three teammates who were significantly across the map. (I died at B on Twilight Gap, teammates died in the upper middle and upper tunnel, I think.)

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The fact that it combines the powers of Arc Blade (+chaining) with Fist of Havoc should immediately tell you something is wrong with Stormtrance's design. Heck, I seem to recall calling that out based just The Taken King's early trailers.

This is interesting to me. Of the 3 new classes stormcaller is least interesting to me. The flavor is great, not as much the function. I've grown to like it, but it's not perfect by any means. When it was new I felt overpowered. Now it's as hit or miss as any other super I use from any other class.

Or, put it this way, if a Titan could smash your team then continue Supering them across the map for another 10 or 15 seconds would that be ok?

Uh, can't they already do that using hammers and sunspots?

No. A Sunbreaker is much more easily evaded and runs out significantly quicker. At long range, they have reach but can't hit crap that is airborne. At close range they have to point the correct direction and aim. Stormcallers, with their 360 degree area of effect Super activation and lightening chaining? Not so much.

I get that this is a rant thread. I agree that stormcallers can be frustrating at times. So can a number of other supers. I guess I jumped in because people were crying "nerf!" I don't know that stormcaller will get used much at all with a substantial nerf. I already don't use it much for trials or small-group PvP. If I list longer chaining it would be okay, but not great. If I lost damage I probably wouldn't use it much at all.

Well it sure as heck needs to lose something. In PvE a Stormcaller can zap many many lower level enemies very quickly. Compared to any other Super their advantage is clearly overwhelming. In PvP they kill around corners, they kill up close when pointing the wrong direction, they kill when they are directly above you and couldn't otherwise attack you. And once they are done with that, their Super lasts so long that the people I play with all frequently curse the Stormcaller that kills them, crosses a large map, then kills them again.

Bungie started signaling a nerd to Stormcallers and a buff to Sunsingers months ago. I just hope they do enough... and that they dispense with the notion that it's ok for a single subclass (the Defender) to have a significantly worse k/d and point spread than every other subclass.

And it pisses me off! JUST FIGHT ME!!

Bungie started signaling a nerd to Stormcallers and a buff to Sunsingers months ago. I just hope they do enough... and that they dispense with the notion that it's ok for a single subclass (the Defender) to have a significantly worse k/d and point spread than every other subclass.

A Sunsinger buff would be an unthinkable disaster in Trials.

Just a question: have you tried playing as a Stormcaller? I don't think it's quite as easy to dominate with the Super as you are making it out to be. I'd say I'm normally pretty happen with 2-3 kills, and I am much more confident making better use of the Golden Gun. Also, trying to use Landfall usually gets me killed rather that killing anyone, it's AOE really isn't that large.

I will once again argue that a lower k/d for Defender is just fine. Wasn't there also a statistic that said that Defenders had a higher win percentage than any other class? Don't forget that in addition to the Ward of Dawn itself, you drop 2-3 orbs for every other player on your team in a place of your choosing, helping them to charge their supers. Perhaps instead of trying to use Ward of Dawn aggressively to take ground, it's best used to consolidate areas already under control? There is that +15 points for each kill your teammates get when under Blessings effects.

I guess we'll find out an hour or so.

Well, Landfall doesn't pop Bubbles anymore anyway. Other Stormcaller nerfs as well.

Bungie started signaling a nerd to Stormcallers and a buff to Sunsingers months ago. I just hope they do enough... and that they dispense with the notion that it's ok for a single subclass (the Defender) to have a significantly worse k/d and point spread than every other subclass.

A Sunsinger buff would be an unthinkable disaster in Trials.

Just a question: have you tried playing as a Stormcaller? I don't think it's quite as easy to dominate with the Super as you are making it out to be. I'd say I'm normally pretty happen with 2-3 kills, and I am much more confident making better use of the Golden Gun. Also, trying to use Landfall usually gets me killed rather that killing anyone, it's AOE really isn't that large.

Well, two things:
1. I rarely play with classes or weapons I think are overpowered. I didn't go Thorn when Thorn was everything. I don't have a 1000 Yard Stare. Etc. Back in the Halo days I'd rarely pickup a shotgun, preferring to beat enemies fairly.
2. I actually don't like Stormtrance very much as a Super even when I'm using it. The hover animation annoys me. Losing my guns annoys me and leave me open to long range attack.

There are times, though, that its duration and ability to kill via arcing absolutely make it extremely over powered... like when someone kills you on one side of Frontier then spawnkills you on the other before their Super runs out. But my hatred towards Stormtrance is as much or more about how it popped by "indestructible" Ward of Dawn without the other player so much as looking my way or even attacking, and how Stormtrance very much blurred the lines between classes as it essentially gave the Warlock most of the powers of a Striker Titan all at the same time (blinding, area of effect attack, health regen) and then went on to last another 20 seconds.

I will once again argue that a lower k/d for Defender is just fine. Wasn't there also a statistic that said that Defenders had a higher win percentage than any other class? Don't forget that in addition to the Ward of Dawn itself, you drop 2-3 orbs for every other player on your team in a place of your choosing, helping them to charge their supers. Perhaps instead of trying to use Ward of Dawn aggressively to take ground, it's best used to consolidate areas already under control? There is that +15 points for each kill your teammates get when under Blessings effects.

Remember, the Defender was considered so amazing by the Destiny community that Bungie could not fit their label into the Crucible subclass usage chart!

That boost to a team's winning percentage? None of us knew it existed (see chart above) because it isn't exposed in any of the in-game data. No, most people think the Defender is a PvE only class because its sole way to contribute (besides getting your team killed as they hide in your "indestructible" bubble) is to Suppress enemies.

Similarly, that 15 point Support bonus is pretty crappy. Think about it, you put down a bubble and just how many people do you expect to kill if everything goes perfectly? 6. (Any more than 6 and your enemies are just complete idiots) Well, 6*15 = 90. Congrats, you almost earned your team the equivalent of another zero control point, zero bonused kill. More typically you + your team will get two to three kills that can be attributed to your bubble. That's only 30 - 45 extra points... That's less than a single Assist! All the Blessings or Weapons of Lighting you did for your team typically don't matter as much as a single Assist, according to the Crucible's scoring...

Now, you and I know that the above chart is kinda dumb. A single Defender can, if played well, shut down enemy Supers, hold down a point, get your team an area of the map they were struggling with, or keep a Heavy Ammo crate in your possession. I am very sure I have been the Guardian that has turned many games around, not by killing, but by using Ward of Dawn at the right place and the right time. But playing a Defender well is a good deal more difficult than any other class.

Of course, the Defender still has some very odd limitations. Like, it is the sole Subclass whose melee ability does absolutely nothing unless you get a kill. It, along with the Sunsinger, cannot earn credit for Super kills. Titans are also the only Class that does not have access to an auto-targeting grenade like the Fire or Arcbolts or Axion Bolts. Heck, it took Bungie a year and a half to decide that maybe just maybe having all Titan melees be 15+% shorter than every other class was a bad move...

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Of course, the Defender still has some very odd limitations. Like, it is the sole Subclass whose melee ability does absolutely nothing unless you get a kill.

Hey, at least it doesn't spend the charge until it triggers, unlike every other on-melee-kill melee ability I've seen. :p

Yeah... still, with a charged melee:

Voidwalker's gives inherit bonuses regardless of how else it is set.
Sunsinger's burns the enemy no matter how else it is set.
Stormcaller's has double extra extended range regardless of how else it is set.
Gunslinger's throws a short range knife no matter how else it is set.
Bladedancer's has extended range no matter how else it is set.
NIghtstalker's throws an incredibly annoying smoke bomb no matter how else it is set.
Striker's does extra damage no matter how else it is set.
Sunbreaker's burns the enemy no matter how else it is set.

Defender?

Absolutely, completely, and totally nothing unless you get a kill.

You can't even spec for faster melee recharge like several of the other classes...

I was just thinking about the melee abilities of the various classes, and how bungie could perhaps tweak things to make them more balanced without making them the same. A few ideas popped into my head. I'd love to hear what everyone thinks:

Warlocks:

A big deal with Warlock Melees is that they have the longest range, and the Warlock tends to gain something from a successful melee hit (overshield, grenade charge, etc).
What if bungie leaned into these characteristics to change the way warlocks use their melee. I was imagining something like extending the range even a little further (imagine short range jedi-style force push), adding a slight "knock back" effect, but drastically reducing the damage (I'm thinking 3 melee strikes to kill) as well as slowing down the strike itself a little bit.

This would make the Warlock melee require a bit more foresight to use effectively, but gives it some interesting strategic potential. Imagine you see a hunter blinking towards you; you anticipate the inevitable blink/shotgun combo and use your melee/force push to bounce the approaching hunter back out of shotgun range and engage with your primary.

Hunters:

Hunter melee could stay roughly where it is for my idea. Middle of the road in terms or range, speed, and damage (still a 2-strike-kill).

Titans:

Since Titans have the shortest range on their melee, I think it would be interesting to increase their melee damage. They could still be a 2-strike-kill, but a single strike would do massive damage... enough to almost kill a fully-shielded guardian. I think it would also make sense for Titans to have a slightly faster melee than the other classes, to help emphasize their "brawler" nature.

What do you think?

I was just thinking about the melee abilities of the various classes, and how bungie could perhaps tweak things to make them more balanced without making them the same. A few ideas popped into my head. I'd love to hear what everyone thinks:

Warlocks:

A big deal with Warlock Melees is that they have the longest range, and the Warlock tends to gain something from a successful melee hit (overshield, grenade charge, etc).
What if bungie leaned into these characteristics to change the way warlocks use their melee. I was imagining something like extending the range even a little further (imagine short range jedi-style force push), adding a slight "knock back" effect, but drastically reducing the damage (I'm thinking 3 melee strikes to kill) as well as slowing down the strike itself a little bit.

This would make the Warlock melee require a bit more foresight to use effectively, but gives it some interesting strategic potential. Imagine you see a hunter blinking towards you; you anticipate the inevitable blink/shotgun combo and use your melee/force push to bounce the approaching hunter back out of shotgun range and engage with your primary.

Hunters:

Hunter melee could stay roughly where it is for my idea. Middle of the road in terms or range, speed, and damage (still a 2-strike-kill).

Titans:

Since Titans have the shortest range on their melee, I think it would be interesting to increase their melee damage. They could still be a 2-strike-kill, but a single strike would do massive damage... enough to almost kill a fully-shielded guardian. I think it would also make sense for Titans to have a slightly faster melee than the other classes, to help emphasize their "brawler" nature.

What do you think?

I just like the idea of what you say for warlocks, but making their melee almost useless at close range. So they actually get damage fall off the closer their enemy is. I don't care if you have a long melee, but you should be !@#$ed if a titan gets in close with his melee. That sounds more realistic in this universe. And as you say, Hunters should stay the same, because ultimately, they choose to have a good melee, or a good ranged melee.

But since you have :p

Striker Titan already puts at least some armor builds down to 1 pixel of health left. I'm very curious to see if a Striker + new Feedback Fences can let me get punched then execute a one melee kill... even on a Flame Shielded Warlock!

The Warlock idea is interesting. I don't so much like getting knocked around... but apparently more of that is here (Sunbreakers Solar Vent seems to have a knock back effect) and coming via a more powerful Solar Wind option on the Sunsinger's melee.

Yes! I've always thought that Warlock melee should do less damage & Titan should do more.

I'm not sure about the knock-back though. Sounds good, but I'm really concerned about it. It will be game changing. It may be okay if the damage was really reduced. My major concern would be that they may be able to make it impossible/difficult for the Titan to get close enough with it's t-rex arms to land a blow. Possibly it could be limited to only knock back on a charged melee?

Yeah... still, with a charged melee:

Voidwalker's gives inherit bonuses regardless of how else it is set.
Sunsinger's burns the enemy no matter how else it is set.
Stormcaller's has double extra extended range regardless of how else it is set.
Gunslinger's throws a short range knife no matter how else it is set.
Bladedancer's has extended range no matter how else it is set.
NIghtstalker's throws an incredibly annoying smoke bomb no matter how else it is set.
Striker's does extra damage no matter how else it is set.
Sunbreaker's burns the enemy no matter how else it is set.

Defender?

Absolutely, completely, and totally nothing unless you get a kill.

You can't even spec for faster melee recharge like several of the other classes...

I just think it's funny that the one subclass that is called a defender has to get a kill to make his ability work.

It's like a healer has to hurt someone before they are allowed to heal them. Like wtf!?

Hmm. I'd actually be perfectly ok with the Defender doing no melee damage and instead being able to activate Force Barrier at will...

I just think it's funny that the one subclass that is called a defender has to get a kill to make his ability work.
It's like a healer has to hurt someone before they are allowed to heal them. Like wtf!?

I agree, WTF? It makes no sense to me.

As an alternative, I'd consider swapping the warlock/titan activation of melee benefits. Warlock triggers only on kill, Titan triggers on hit.

Yes! I've always thought that Warlock melee should do less damage & Titan should do more.
Possibly it could be limited to only knock back on a charged melee?

That seems like a good compromise :)

I just think it's funny that the one subclass that is called a defender has to get a kill to make his ability work.
It's like a healer has to hurt someone before they are allowed to heal them. Like wtf!?

I agree, WTF? It makes no sense to me.

As an alternative, I'd consider swapping the warlock/titan activation of melee benefits. Warlock triggers only on kill, Titan triggers on hit.

I'm okay with that, but I am Titan biased. But just to not get overkill, I think it makes the most sense to just do it on the defender.

Fundamentally change how it works. Instead of a stationary bubble. The defender gets a invincible movable hamster ball 1.5X the regular size. Other people can move in and out, but the defender is stuck inside forcing them to use melee/TLW/shottys/short-gaze on opponents who enter into the ball of doom. Sure, your offence is limited in range, but you can move around and it takes a full super to pop your hamsterball. I'm sure they could code new animations for the super... Helm of Saint-14 is OP.