Scoring has made its way into Bungie games before, namely the Halo series with campaign scoring and Firefight. As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong), the PoE challenge mode is based around accumulating a high score in order to get gear. That, and scoring as a whole, is generally kind of dumb.

Think about it this way: failing to achieve the required score for loot is a failure state. Don't get the score, you don't get the loot. So why not bypass the scoring thing entirely, and simply make completing the activity result in the loot? The various modifiers help your score. For instance, headshots give you more points. So why not simply have headshots either do more damage and adjust enemy health so that you need to hit lots of headshots to kill before running out of ammo, make critical hits mandatory, give ammo back on critical hits, or some combination of all of these?

I think the first of my suggestions is probably the best because it is functionally equivalent, but makes sense and is still immersive. Points are anti immersive. Tracking a number has nothing to do with killing Taken. You are taken 'outside' of the game when you compare scores.

You get more points for chaining in Ikaruga. If chaining is fun and challenging in and of itself, why not just make chaining necessary to win? Maybe you only get bullets back if you chain. The harder the difficulty, the more you have to chain to get shots back.

Instead of points, Bungie should tweak the mechanics such that you need to exploit the modifiers somehow simply to win.

Scoring made limited sense years ago, but in modern games it has no place at all.

I have to say it: So what about PvP?

Scoring serves one main purpose -- requiring you to run the challenge multiple times to finish a card. Ignoring that grindy aspect of it... Scoring makes play within your fireteam more competitive.

Loot distribution doesn't have any correlation to score, other than completing your card.

This is really no different than damage at the kill screen of a raid encounter. It's bragging rights. Similar to kill count and k/d ratios. Same difference. It's a metric to measure yourself against your teammates.

As slycrel mentioned, the main appeal of the PoE scorecard is forcing you to run multiple times to get the big reward. But, along with that, there's a more subtle time gate:

You can't speedrun the challenge.

If you do, odds are you won't reach the single-game highscore. In way, the score prevents "kill Skolas in half a second with 3 Gallys" situations from ever happening again.

I believe you still get loot even if you don't get enough points to get one of the rewards from the cards. The rewards are just more common in that case. Additionally, the scoring isn't outside the game since the score is being tracked by Variks and he gives you the loot upon completion.

I have to say it: So what about PvP?

Completely different. Scoring is pretty much required in PvP.

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I enjoyed the addition of scoring to Halo campaign and particularly firefight. I think it would be fun if it were in Destiny campaign missions.

I believe you still get loot even if you don't get enough points to get one of the rewards from the cards. The rewards are just more common in that case. Additionally, the scoring isn't outside the game since the score is being tracked by Variks and he gives you the loot upon completion.

Also, Variks takes points away from your score when he grows impatient, but you can impress him enough to win them back and then some (we nearly doubled the score last night AFTER he began to take points away). It's a fun race against time, and playing smart is key.

Why are points better? Because Cody's suggestions take teamwork out of the equation. Last night I told Funk and Stabbim that I was going to go for zero kills, and I worked to get nothing but assists and damage on the boss (the "no kill" thing didn't last too long once people started dying, but I was still contributing to the score with the assist points).

Cody's suggestions force you to play a certain way, rather than being creative, which is by his own words, bad game design.

First point, Scoring is a very flexible balance tool. You can assign a lot of value for different actions, you can separate that value out from other gameplay concerns. As for immersion I'm generally less concerned with immersion as a factor, as immersion is probably the single most overvalued aspect of digital games, but I've already made that rant. I mean, it's not like POE is selling some grand fiction, it's more of a direct window into Destinie's combat systems.

But yea, why scoring can be awesome:

Variable levels of performance: It's entirely possible that scoring/leaderboards could take off as a thing. I mean you were a speedrunner right? you saw how valuable people took that competition.

Allow for failure but still making progress, I think this is the goal of the armor vs. weapon numbers on the card. If you fail the score goal, you still made progress towards this other thing.

Easy to balance when the system isn't directly connected: How valuable should a headshot be, how valuable picking up an orb? You could assign their value their value directly in the system but then you've got all these complicated systems. For example restoring ammo on chained headshots, well that already intereferes with perks that do the same thing, and in theory could seriously overpower some weapons like the Sleeper stimulant.

All of that said, points are just inhereantly less exciting. There's no audio visual interest, it's just a dry number in the corner. There's confusion about when the game is actually over, which is anticlimactic. I would like if completing the score triggered an event that could resove the fight more quickly if you wanted. Maybe all the lethality turns up, or variks drops a boon. Or maybe there's a visible diagetic element in the arena that doesn't unlock until you clear the score threshold.

I dunno, Bungie was very conservtive with this system, which is disapointing, but we'll see how well the balance works over the coming week.

I believe you still get loot even if you don't get enough points to get one of the rewards from the cards. The rewards are just more common in that case. Additionally, the scoring isn't outside the game since the score is being tracked by Variks and he gives you the loot upon completion.

Also, Variks takes points away from your score when he grows impatient, but you can impress him enough to win them back and then some (we nearly doubled the score last night AFTER he began to take points away). It's a fun race against time, and playing smart is key.

Can you explain what you mean here? We lost points a couple of times, but I never saw a chance to earn them back...

Why are points better? Because Cody's suggestions take teamwork out of the equation. Last night I told Funk and Stabbim that I was going to go for zero kills, and I worked to get nothing but assists and damage on the boss (the "no kill" thing didn't last too long once people started dying, but I was still contributing to the score with the assist points).

And why couldn't you do that without scoring? Your assists make it easier for your teammates to kill enemies. It's the same thing.

The boom line is that scoring is a considerable detraction to immersion, since you are focusing on some external number rather than the game world at hand. In every case, you can create something functionally equivalent without the need for score, that preserves immersion.

Want to encourage assists? Make enemies killed with assists drop more ammo, and decrease ammo drops from non assists. Any way of scoring can be encouraged with a cool, integrated game mechanic instead. Simply take an action that gives you extra points, and reward it through the game mechanics rather than score.

Why are points better? Because Cody's suggestions take teamwork out of the equation. Last night I told Funk and Stabbim that I was going to go for zero kills, and I worked to get nothing but assists and damage on the boss (the "no kill" thing didn't last too long once people started dying, but I was still contributing to the score with the assist points).

And why couldn't you do that without scoring? Your assists make it easier for your teammates to kill enemies. It's the same thing.

The boom line is that scoring is a considerable detraction to immersion, since you are focusing on some external number rather than the game world at hand.

I guess it's a personal thing, but I've never found Destiny to be in any way "immersive" in terms of absorbing me into the world and characters. Between the SUPER recharge display flashing across my screen, or the "Public Event" announcements, numbers flying off the bad guys' heads... Destiny is as "gamey" as it gets. I don't find the score counter harmful to the experience at all. I also don't think Bungie has leveraged it in a way that adds much either, but that's just me.

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Fair point, but I'd love to see something diagetic.

Want to encourage assists? Make enemies killed with assists drop more ammo, and decrease ammo drops from non assists. Any way of scoring can be encouraged with a cool, integrated game mechanic instead. Simply take an action that gives you extra points, and reward it through the game mechanics rather than score.

Because super subtle system changes that modify a percentage are the pinnacle of design ;)

Want to encourage assists? Make enemies killed with assists drop more ammo, and decrease ammo drops from non assists. Any way of scoring can be encouraged with a cool, integrated game mechanic instead. Simply take an action that gives you extra points, and reward it through the game mechanics rather than score.

Because super subtle system changes that modify a percentage are the pinnacle of design ;)

You make the changes explicit in the modifiers descriptions.

Want to encourage assists? Make enemies killed with assists drop more ammo, and decrease ammo drops from non assists. Any way of scoring can be encouraged with a cool, integrated game mechanic instead. Simply take an action that gives you extra points, and reward it through the game mechanics rather than score.

Because super subtle system changes that modify a percentage are the pinnacle of design ;)

You make the changes explicit in the modifiers descriptions.

FULL IMMERSION

Well, thanks, Captain Obvious.

Each time we've begun to lose points, we're at the end of the round; there are usually no (or few) adds left, and the boss is down to just a sliver of health. I'm wondering how, at that stage, to continue to gain points.

The numbers have never bothered me and now I know why

Well, thanks, Captain Obvious.

Each time we've begun to lose points, we're at the end of the round; there are usually no (or few) adds left, and the boss is down to just a sliver of health. I'm wondering how, at that stage, to continue to gain points.

Reinforcements are directly tied to boss health, so if you only damage the boss after the last enemy falls, you can maximize your points. Variks should lose his patience at around the fifth wave.

Well, thanks, Captain Obvious.

Each time we've begun to lose points, we're at the end of the round; there are usually no (or few) adds left, and the boss is down to just a sliver of health. I'm wondering how, at that stage, to continue to gain points.

Reinforcements are directly tied to boss health, so if you only damage the boss after the last enemy falls, you can maximize your points. Variks should lose his patience at around the fifth wave.

How many waves are there, total? (I thought it was 5.) We've had him lose patience at the END of the 5th wave - at which point there's no real chance for more points. I guess what you're suggesting is to go slower, so that he loses patience at the BEGINNING of the wave?

(I'm pretty sure there's a 5-minute timer from the start of the wave to his losing patience; I guess taking those 5 minutes to finish 4 waves might allow some last-minute point earning. It just hasn't happened that way, so far.)

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Most of the time, this is what happens. He sends the message at the end.

However, when we went slower so we could guarantee 45000 points per match and made sure almost nobody was killed without a headshot, he would send the message and we wouldn't make it a priority to finish quickly, we just shot dudes in the head at the same pace, and his boredom was of no real consequence.

I don't know how many waves there were.

Scoring made limited sense years ago, but in modern games it has no place at all.

Uh huh...

I dislike the idea of changing up the familiar play of the game to simulate a scoring system because you very quickly start drastically changing the way Destiny plays and start eliminating what used to be valid gameplay strategies. What if I like Fusion Rifles and rocket launchers and grenades? In your mode with buffed enemy health and enhanced headshot damage they are non-viable. And that's just a simple example. As you start altering more of base Destiny to simulate every complex things that a scoring system can more easily highlight, you likely start encountering more problems that force players into playing a certain way or, for people like me who enjoy the way base Destiny plays and dislike when things feel off, make the game not as fun for some.

My biggest problem with Skolas was that his battle wasn't Destiny because being under leveled combined with the though numerous enemies and punishing modifiers meant our best strategy wasn't to equip the correct guns and supers. It was to hide under an overhang cowering that a stray shot would kill us and reset an hour worth of progress.

I'll take a scoring system over game/level design that I suspect I would soon find intensely unfun.

I dislike the idea of changing up the familiar play of the game to simulate a scoring system because you very quickly start drastically changing the way Destiny plays and start eliminating what used to be valid gameplay strategies. What if I like Fusion Rifles and rocket launchers and grenades? In your mode with buffed enemy health and enhanced headshot damage they are non-viable. And that's just a simple example. As you start altering more of base Destiny to simulate every complex things that a scoring system can more easily highlight, you likely start encountering more problems that force players into playing a certain way or, for people like me who enjoy the way base Destiny plays and dislike when things feel off, make the game not as fun for some.

But the scoring system initiates the complexity. It's much better for that complexity to manifest itself naturally.

Remember the Maw run from Halo? You had a timer you had to beat. 6 or 5 minutes depending on the difficulty. You could functionally accomplish the same thing, with a cascading explosion that progresses down the Maw run, reaching the end in 5 or 6 minutes. See the difference? Wouldn't it be more fun to outrun an explosion than to race a silly timer?

The same thing applies to score. If you like Fusion Rifles and Rocket launchers, you are already less effective when small arms and headshot bonuses are on. I'm not sure I understand your concern, because your score will suck. It's already non viable currently.

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What's it from? It may replace my Citizen Kane one I use a lot.

Want to encourage assists? Make enemies killed with assists drop more ammo, and decrease ammo drops from non assists. Any way of scoring can be encouraged with a cool, integrated game mechanic instead. Simply take an action that gives you extra points, and reward it through the game mechanics rather than score.

Because super subtle system changes that modify a percentage are the pinnacle of design ;)

You make the changes explicit in the modifiers descriptions.

FULL IMMERSION

It's more immersive than scoring.

Remember the Maw run from Halo? You had a timer you had to beat. 6 or 5 minutes depending on the difficulty. You could functionally accomplish the same thing, with a cascading explosion that progresses down the Maw run, reaching the end in 5 or 6 minutes. See the difference? Wouldn't it be more fun to outrun an explosion than to race a silly timer?

Yeah, I see the difference. Your way forces me into a specific driving speed (I have to be faster, at all times, than the cascading explosion). Bungie's way let me do certain things faster than average, which allowed me to take side trips, and talk to grunts about food nipples.

I like their way better.

It seems totally reasonable than a combat arena might have some kind of scoring system to me anyway, but assuming that's too out there, why is a text box explaining the nonsensical rules of a fight any more immersive than a score card?

It seems totally reasonable than a combat arena might have some kind of scoring system to me anyway, but assuming that's too out there, why is a text box explaining the nonsensical rules of a fight any more immersive than a score card?

Yeah, you'd still have your particular game-y strategy on your mind the entire time.