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MS E3 Announcements (Off-Topic)

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Monday, June 13, 2016, 17:24 (3088 days ago)

Things I thought were interesting:

  • Minecraft realms - Private dedicated servers to share your worlds with your friends even when offline. PC, iOS, and Xbox players can play together. Too bad it won't be coming to xbox until next year.
  • Play Anywhere - Digital purchases of many games will now allow you to play the game on both Xbox and Windows. I actually see this as a move away from Xbox hardware and to Windows 10 hardware. If you want to upgrade to a VR experience you can just pickup a Windows 10 machine and start playing the games you already own.
  • Project Scorpio - 6 TFLOPS of GPU! 320 GB/s memory bandwidth! 8 Core CPU! VR (hardware unknown - I'm guessing that means any Windows 10 compatible VR hardware)! I bet it's going to be expensive.
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Halo Wars 2 beta available.

by Funkmon @, Monday, June 13, 2016, 17:29 (3088 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

Who wants to play?

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Halo Wars 2 beta available.

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Monday, June 13, 2016, 17:30 (3088 days ago) @ Funkmon

Ooh, I missed that one while I was at lunch. Sounds like fun!

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downloaded

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, June 13, 2016, 20:12 (3088 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

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MS E3 Announcements

by cheapLEY @, Monday, June 13, 2016, 17:40 (3088 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

Project Scorpio - 6 TFLOPS of GPU! 320 GB/s memory bandwidth! 8 Core CPU! VR (hardware unknown - I'm guessing that means any Windows 10 compatible VR hardware)! I bet it's going to be expensive.


I bet they eat a loss on them rather than making them super expensive. If this thing is $500+, they might as well not bother.

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I think it will cost a boatload.

by Funkmon @, Monday, June 13, 2016, 17:50 (3088 days ago) @ cheapLEY

And I think that they think people will actually buy them because of the people bitching online about subpar consoles and how superior even a $500 PC is compared to $300 consoles.

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I don't know.

by cheapLEY @, Monday, June 13, 2016, 17:58 (3088 days ago) @ Funkmon

And I think that they think people will actually buy them because of the people bitching online about subpar consoles and how superior even a $500 PC is compared to $300 consoles.

We have the same argument, we're just hitting it from opposite sides. I don't see people (even those complaining about under-powered consoles) paying $500 or more on a new console. Especially when the argument doesn't change--spend that money on a PC and ultimately get a better experience. I know that lots and lots of people will never build a PC because the convenience of a console is king for them, but I don't see those people dropping that much money in such a short time after doing it just a few years ago.

So, either Microsoft prices this thing at $400 and maybe loses money on every one sold for a while, and they sell a bunch of them, or they price them higher and sell few of them. I think $500 is the max price they could ask for this and reasonably expect to sell them, and I think even that is pushing it.

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Right. I think it will fail or have tiny installbase.

by Funkmon @, Monday, June 13, 2016, 18:14 (3088 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I don't think Microsoft will take a huge loss on this console. I bet they think they don't have to.

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My Guess

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Monday, June 13, 2016, 18:21 (3088 days ago) @ Funkmon

MS expects these to sell to gamers who want superior performance but don't want to build their own PC. This will essentially compete against alienware/razer gaming systems except it will be more console-oriented. Really, the Xbox is getting less and less different than just a PC these days anyway so I'd guess MS isn't worried about selling the hardware. Instead they want to build out the Xbox community by including Windows 10 users.

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MS just stealth-launched their own version of Steam Box

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, June 13, 2016, 19:20 (3088 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

MS expects these to sell to gamers who want superior performance but don't want to build their own PC. This will essentially compete against alienware/razer gaming systems except it will be more console-oriented. Really, the Xbox is getting less and less different than just a PC these days anyway so I'd guess MS isn't worried about selling the hardware. Instead they want to build out the Xbox community by including Windows 10 users.

Their messaging about "an end to console generations" or whatever wording they used, along with their range of platforms, speaks to the idea of selection of gaming machines across a range of price points. The new Xbox One S is the mass-market, affordable home console. The Windows 10 platform is for the PC crowd. Scorpio will fill the niche of high-powered console. It will probably be too expensive for most console gamers when it first launches, but as time goes on it will get cheaper and smaller until before you know it Scorpio becomes the affordable home console while another new machine gets launched to fill the high-end void.

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Steambox, the famously successful console system.

by Funkmon @, Monday, June 13, 2016, 19:36 (3088 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

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MS just stealth-launched their own version of Steam Box

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, June 13, 2016, 19:54 (3088 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by Cody Miller, Monday, June 13, 2016, 19:58

MS expects these to sell to gamers who want superior performance but don't want to build their own PC. This will essentially compete against alienware/razer gaming systems except it will be more console-oriented. Really, the Xbox is getting less and less different than just a PC these days anyway so I'd guess MS isn't worried about selling the hardware. Instead they want to build out the Xbox community by including Windows 10 users.


Their messaging about "an end to console generations" or whatever wording they used, along with their range of platforms, speaks to the idea of selection of gaming machines across a range of price points. The new Xbox One S is the mass-market, affordable home console. The Windows 10 platform is for the PC crowd. Scorpio will fill the niche of high-powered console. It will probably be too expensive for most console gamers when it first launches, but as time goes on it will get cheaper and smaller until before you know it Scorpio becomes the affordable home console while another new machine gets launched to fill the high-end void.

I remember hearing about the fact that both console makers screwed themselves this time with the hardware. It was itself decent, but it had not much space to grow because it was too familiar… Look at Uncharted 1 vs Uncharted 2. A huge leap as Naughty Dog figured out what to do with all those parallel processors inside the Cell. It's always been that way with consoles: you generally get odd specialized hardware that becomes more capable because the developers can squeeze more out of it as they learn, and so you get steadily improving games even as the console ages.

However, the hardware is essentially known and very PC like in the current gen. I remember hearing that launch games were basically going to look as good as games later in the console's life cycle. Because developers already knew how to squeeze the hardware. Hence, we are already looking towards upgrades.

So maybe they wouldn't have had to do this if they'd just made the hardware weirder. I mean, the PS2 is the most successful console in history, and the emotion engine was weird as shit.

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MS just stealth-launched their own version of Steam Box

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, June 13, 2016, 20:11 (3088 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I never really thought about this before and I find the idea fascinating. Labyrinthine hardware equals room to grow without changing the hardware. Makes you wonder, though, how first-gen games managed to look as good as they did (like Halo), but it's all relative to what we're used to seeing I guess. At this point, however, we're getting closer to our physical limits regarding what we can perceive visually, and since improved visuals have been the primary driver for improving consoles, perhaps hardware is going to matter less? That idea might sound really stupid in a few years. I don't know.

The other thought your comment brought to mind was the Naughty Dog employee in the TLoU doc comparing game making to game playing on expert mode.

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MS just stealth-launched their own version of Steam Box

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, June 13, 2016, 20:16 (3088 days ago) @ Kermit

At this point, however, we're getting closer to our physical limits regarding what we can perceive visually, and since improved visuals have been the primary driver for improving consoles, perhaps hardware is going to matter less? That idea might sound really stupid in a few years. I don't know.

Better visuals are not the only things you can do with better hardware. The more power you have under the hood, the better you can make your games. Period. The quest for improvements will only end when it becomes physically impossible on a quantum level, or until designing games on said improved hardware is not financially viable.

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MS just stealth-launched their own version of Steam Box

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, June 13, 2016, 21:00 (3088 days ago) @ Cody Miller

At this point, however, we're getting closer to our physical limits regarding what we can perceive visually, and since improved visuals have been the primary driver for improving consoles, perhaps hardware is going to matter less? That idea might sound really stupid in a few years. I don't know.


Better visuals are not the only things you can do with better hardware. The more power you have under the hood, the better you can make your games. Period. The quest for improvements will only end when it becomes physically impossible on a quantum level, or until designing games on said improved hardware is not financially viable.

I've not been as impressed with innovation in other areas, except maybe the size of playspaces. I guess what I'm saying is it feels as if we're getting closer to the only limitations being imagination and financial--the last perhaps being the biggest. It takes a lot of man hours to produce hyperrealistic content. (I think about the marketplace sequence in Uncharted 4 and it boggles my mind.) Maybe technology could advance in a way to make production easier.

I think VR is a game-changer, and it might actually hurt games as we know them. I suspect that technology is going to be more experience-oriented than game-oriented. Heard an interview with Kevin Kelly the other day, and he was saying that FPS games are too intense in VR. It's going to be interesting to see what happens over the next ten years.

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MS just stealth-launched their own version of Steam Box

by uberfoop @, Seattle-ish, Monday, June 13, 2016, 22:28 (3088 days ago) @ Kermit

It takes a lot of man hours to produce hyperrealistic content. (I think about the marketplace sequence in Uncharted 4 and it boggles my mind.) Maybe technology could advance in a way to make production easier.

That's basically everything in modern game development. Creating assets has ballooned into astronomical costs, and mitigating that with tools is critical. The popularity of Speedtree for aiding in the creation of foliage assets is a particular clear sign of this. Improving software delays when artists are testing content as they iterate is also a huge deal; remember how the internet sort of blew up when the rumor surfaced about Destiny's development environment taking forever to load a level.

There are more nuanced changes; most of the motivation behind physically-based rendering has to do with getting artists to create and tune their assets faster, by supplying a consistent and predictable framework for defining materials and lights.

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MS just stealth-launched their own version of Steam Box

by uberfoop @, Seattle-ish, Monday, June 13, 2016, 22:55 (3088 days ago) @ Kermit

I never really thought about this before and I find the idea fascinating. Labyrinthine hardware equals room to grow without changing the hardware.

There's definitely some room to grow regardless. Even if the hardware is easy to utilize in a basic sense of "we can use up the processor's time and fill the RAM with data", techniques develop as a generation progresses. Methods of crafting assets improve, understanding of the behavior of light and how to model it in ways that are convincing to the human viewer is expanded, new approaches to rendering 3D scenes which might reduce certain redundancies in some circumstances come into being, etc. Even when pure efficiency doesn't improve, the toolbox gets bigger, and things get more refined.

Human characters in some late-gen PS360 games have skin that looks warmer and less like waxy concrete than characters in some CGI from the early part of the gen. That's not because the games had more resources to spend on skin rendering than the CGI, it's because over eight years we improved our understanding of how light interacts with the various layers of stuff that make up skin, how to represent that "accurately" even with cheap approximations, and how to correctly author textures to represent these things.

Makes you wonder, though, how first-gen games managed to look as good as they did (like Halo)

The Xbox had a good development environment right out of the gate, and while the tech was very modern, it wasn't janky. Except for the disc drive, which is extremely janky.

Sixth-gen Halo sort of demonstrates the compromization and refinement that I'm talking about.

Halo 2's graphics are much more sophisticated than Halo 1's; dynamic objects received normal maps and analytic specular, rudimentary specular color appears to be added, then-modern post-processing techniques like bloom and depth-of-field were implemented, water has refraction, streaming is now a dynamic process, assets for dynamic objects look more realistic and detailed, and effects for explosions and the like are smoother. There are also changes like the physics system vaguely resembling real-world physics. The game even runs better, by and large.

These didn't come without cost, though. Halo 1's dynamic lighting is far more vibrant and much more of it includes specular on the environment; Halo 1's effects are larger and more deeply-layered; Halo 1 uses several times as many particles. While Halo 1 can't necessarily get away with as much high-quality unique textures as Halo 2, it still managed to have very sharp textures through lots of reuse, and it didn't suffer from texture popping.

In overall appearance, Halo 2 tends to be a more modern-looking game than Halo 1. But, this has the interesting caveat that a lot of people prefer how Halo 1 looks.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(And that entire situation has a lot of parallels with Halo's 3 and Reach.)

No one brought up Clubs?

by CougRon, Auburn, WA, USA, Monday, June 13, 2016, 21:32 (3088 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

Microsoft is adding a clan feature they call Clubs that will work across games. How long until someone establish a DBO club?

MS is also introducing a LFG feature and some sort of Tournament ability.

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It's cool, but these things often kill communities.

by Funkmon @, Monday, June 13, 2016, 22:43 (3088 days ago) @ CougRon

If you have a community already, moving to a new service seems like a good idea if you all have it or it appears to have tangible benefits.

The problem is that it's closed at that point if you start using it. The people who use the new system eventually stop bothering with the old system, that is, forums and stuff, and as they leave, nobody new learns about it, since it's only social. Having no benefits outside of communication between members means it will never be found by new people, replacing the ones who leave.

I hope we at DBO use it either sparingly or not at all.

MS E3 Announcements

by CougRon, Auburn, WA, USA, Monday, June 13, 2016, 21:58 (3088 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

Here is a summary from Major Nelson of what was announced including a video of the new S model:
https://majornelson.com/2016/06/13/xbox-at-e3-2016-recap-13-june-2016/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&...

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Customizable controllers . . .

by cheapLEY @, Monday, June 13, 2016, 22:07 (3088 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

Custom controllers look pretty awesome! Not worth $80 to me, but they look cool.

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Is "Crackdown 3" Microsoft's "The Last Guardian"

by CyberKN ⌂ @, Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Monday, June 13, 2016, 22:10 (3088 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

I know it got delayed again, but just give it some lip-service at least.

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