See you next week, Saladin!

Complete vindication that hunters were stupidly overpowered in the crucible.

Time to buff defenders.

Complete vindication that hunters were stupidly overpowered smarter players in the crucible.

Time to buff stop playing defenders.

FTFY

I think it's just that people who know best tend to use the best class for PvP. Unlike Raga, some of us like to use good subclasses for PvP :)

Complete vindication that hunters were stupidly overpowered smarter players in the crucible.

Time to buff stop playing defenders.

FTFY

Right. Smarter players used hunters because they were simply more effective. (and not defenders for the opposite reason).

Notice the top three scores for PoE are now inches apart, and not even close to 90.

See?

Aggressive subclasses, though, are. You objectively* SHOULD see an aggressive subclass have higher K/D more often than not.

I think a fairer statistics would be wins/losses (even taking FFA gametypes into the equation, though it would pull the graph closer to the K/D).

*Pulling a Cody here, carry on.

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Win percentage is key here, and that information is not provided.

I'm also still mystified how to play as a Bladedancer. Any time I've tried my K/D plummits.

Complete vindication that hunters were stupidly overpowered smarter players in the crucible.

Time to buff stop playing defenders.

FTFY

Right. Smarter players used hunters because they were simply more effective. (and not defenders for the opposite reason).

I can totally understand why you're afraid of using it. ;)

Win percentage is key here, and that information is not provided.

I'm also still mystified how to play as a Bladedancer. Any time I've tried my K/D plummits.

Bladedancer is a curveball, people like you and I throw fastballs.

Complete vindication that hunters were stupidly overpowered smarter players in the crucible.

Time to buff stop playing defenders.

FTFY

Right. Smarter players used hunters because they were simply more effective. (and not defenders for the opposite reason).

I can totally understand why you're afraid of using it. ;)

FWIW, I frequently use defender in Mayhem.

Weapons of light + Special Ammo everywhere turns your whole team into a body-shot sniping death squad

Right. Smarter players used hunters because they were simply more effective. (and not defenders for the opposite reason).

I would never call them overpowered personally. Gunslingers just allow for more ranged play (including supers) then pretty much any other subclass. Defensively playing seems to be a natural fit for a gunslinger. This lends naturally to a higher k/d potential.

In objective modes I'll run Defender Titan if playing as a titan, and then I'll switch to striker if I need to be super aggressive. Both of these play styles force me to be closer then I like to my enemies which means I'll get shotgunned way more often and in turn lowers my k/d.

Win percentage is key here, and that information is not provided.

I'm also still mystified how to play as a Bladedancer. Any time I've tried my K/D plummits.

Agreed, though I hope they show the after change chart so we can see how much of an effect it had.

I'd say aggressive subclasses are about getting more kills, not necessarily about getting a higher K/D. Often times you can get a much higher score for your team by getting score multipliers while keeping your K/D close to 1.0. Since PvP in Destiny is scored by points rather than kills, K/D isn't necessarily an indicator that you are doing well.

In fact, I'd say that plays into exactly why the Striker titan has around a 1.0 K/D on that chart. For me the Striker is all about running in, getting some kills, dying, and repeating. Keeping the pressure on the enemy so other players can hit them at long range without fear of retribution because everyone is focusing on not getting shoulder-charged.

Complete vindication that hunters were stupidly overpowered in the crucible.

Time to buff defenders.

Yes, it demonstrated an average K/D that was 0.05 higher than the mean and 0.15 higher than the worst class.

Want to know why hunters are the best? We have the best jump. That will never change. In a sandbox world where every class has only their jump and primary weapons, you will find that hunters dominate in PvP.

Also, the worst class is the only one who can't kill things with his super. That's a huge hit to K/D. But that "worst class" is also a massive help to his team. Don't believe me? Go into mayhem clash with a suppression grenade defender. Your K/D may not be great, but your team will win because the enemy won't be able to super.

Win percentage is key here, and that information is not provided.

I'm also still mystified how to play as a Bladedancer. Any time I've tried my K/D plummits.

Here's my advice:

- Run better control for your jump. Blink is for suckers.

- When moving, always be airborne or sliding. Don't let your head stay at "head level" if possible.

- Take advantage of the "your weapons ready immediately" perk and run around with your primary out most of the time, only swapping to secondary when needed.

- Skip grenades are great for making enemies turn tail. And you're faster than they are. Lead with the grenade, then chase the fleeing enemy and put them down.

- Hungering blade will save your life. A lot.

- Your normal (non-charged) melee is still excellent and hits from decent range. More importantly, it's very easy to get precision hits with compared to the other two melees. Even without fast twitch, the blade dancer melee charges very quickly.

- Bones of Eao are probably your best exotic armor option if you're shotgunning, Tarantella if you're sniping.

I hope this helps!

I'd say aggressive subclasses are about getting more kills, not necessarily about getting a higher K/D. Often times you can get a much higher score for your team by getting score multipliers while keeping your K/D close to 1.0. Since PvP in Destiny is scored by points rather than kills, K/D isn't necessarily an indicator that you are doing well.

In fact, I'd say that plays into exactly why the Striker titan has around a 1.0 K/D on that chart. For me the Striker is all about running in, getting some kills, dying, and repeating. Keeping the pressure on the enemy so other players can hit them at long range without fear of retribution because everyone is focusing on not getting shoulder-charged.

I hope this is true. I'm the king of 3500 points with a 0.9 K/D.

Also, Titan's have arguably the worst jump for dodging stuff. Sure, you can skate like crazy and find really high perches, but you can't really change your momentum very quickly without shoulder-charging, which leaves you defenseless for a bit.

I mean, there is going to be some noise in the K/D ratio with all the buffs and nerfs.

I'm also still mystified how to play as a Bladedancer. Any time I've tried my K/D plummits.

It only works in 6v6 because people will be distracted, but I have had a lot of success with a high agility, max invisibility-perk blade-dancer. Relying on invisibility to actually hide you is suicide in a straight on run. The key is to go invisible and flank people focused on your teammates. You don't show up on radar when invisible and can wipe out an entire team caught off-guard.

Flank

Just came out of invis for this flank.

Sometimes you have to hide like a coward in a corner for the right moment.

If you're into blade dancing, mask of the third man is really helpful in extending your super.

I really like the play-style of the blade dancer because it requires you to find hiding spots near enemies and then figure out flanking lanes for aggressive movements. You need to come to a peace about being a shotgun wielding jerk, but I sleep well at night. It also does not work well in 3v3 playlists because there is not enough confusion to take advantage of the class invisibility perks.

I, for one, rely a LOT on my radar (so much that Chaff is actually the worst debuff you can give me in PvE), so staying hidden from it usually throws me off.

I've been making a conscious effort to notice the shimmer of invisible Hunters now, but it catches me off guard once in a while. Head-on, though, I will probably smoke you.

C'mom, Bungie, give us graph-porn!

My DTR stats say I average 1.07 K/D with a score of 3,060.39 in the control playlist which seems about in-line with your stats. It would probably actually be a bit better for my team (and my K/D) if I were slightly less aggressive in order to make sure I have teammates supporting me when I run in shoulders-blazing. :)

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My DTR stats say I average 1.07 K/D with a score of 3,060.39 in the control playlist which seems about in-line with your stats. It would probably actually be a bit better for my team (and my K/D) if I were slightly less aggressive in order to make sure I have teammates supporting me when I run in shoulders-blazing. :)

I just checked and I'm 0.99 K/D with 3035.30 score per game, so yeah, surprisingly similar. I do spend a lot of time mucking around with gunsmith guns or trying weird loadouts, so I wonder how much that affects things overall. Last night I took hawkmoon into rumble to see how it did, and that last place finish sure isn't helping my ELO. For the record, I do not like hawkmoon right now. First Curse or TLW are where it's at.

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Obviously I'm pretty badass. I often run defender and keep a 1.2-1.3 k/d.

My highest K/Ds come from being an evil cowardly-aggressive invisible bladedancing Huntress who wields Universal Remote and sticky grenades.

C'mom, Bungie, give us graph-porn!

I had a joke about divination but this request totally sidetracked me...

I main a Striker and Bladedancer for Crucible work. :p

My highest K/Ds come from being an evil cowardly-aggressive invisible bladedancing Huntress who wields Universal Remote and sticky grenades.

Identity theft. I remembered your post about it when I decided to try it out.

Complete vindication that hunters were stupidly overpowered in the crucible.

Time to buff defenders.

huh, that is like weirdly out of synch with the conversations around "THE META" you hear on places like Reddit.

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Also, the worst class is the only one who can't kill things with his super. That's a huge hit to K/D. But that "worst class" is also a massive help to his team. Don't believe me? Go into mayhem clash with a suppression grenade defender. Your K/D may not be great, but your team will win because the enemy won't be able to super.

The more I read this thread the more I think the spread isn't a big deal. Saying the Defender needs buffed based on k/d is like saying TF2's Medic needs buffed for the same reason.

Also, the worst class is the only one who can't kill things with his super. That's a huge hit to K/D. But that "worst class" is also a massive help to his team. Don't believe me? Go into mayhem clash with a suppression grenade defender. Your K/D may not be great, but your team will win because the enemy won't be able to super.

The more I read this thread the more I think the spread isn't a big deal. Saying the Defender needs buffed based on k/d is like saying TF2's Medic needs buffed for the same reason.

Exactly.

Though I need to also say that the hunter "nerfs" are honestly not that big at all.

Complete vindication that hunters were stupidly overpowered in the crucible.

Time to buff defenders.

huh, that is like weirdly out of synch with the conversations around "THE META" you hear on places like Reddit.

A blanket stat like "average K/D per class" doesn't do anything to capture the effectiveness of a given class across the skill-curve of the player base. For example, most mediocre players will do better with a Stormcaller than with a Defender because of the difference in Super abilities alone. It doesn't take much skill to get 3-4 kills per Stormtrance... so 2-3 Supers per game will make a significant bump in a player's average K/D between the 2 classes.

But some classes tend have a slightly more significant skill gap than others when it comes to using them successfully. In the right hands, a Bladedancer can be one of (if not the most) dangerous classes in the game. But it take just the right approach and skill level to use effectively. Same with Striker Titans. Strikers can very easily screw themselves over if they don't use their abilities just right; missing a shoulder charge or Fist of Havoc will make you a sitting duck, Lightning and Blinding grenades have the potential to seriously backfire if you're not careful, etc. But a Striker who really knows what they are doing is a true force to be reckoned with.

By comparison, it is much harder to really screw up with a Gunslinger. Their super doesn't have the same level of risk, their grenades are less likely to backfire, their jumps are easier to control, etc.

So yeah, I don't think stats like average K/D per class really tell the whole story.

By comparison, it is much harder to really screw up with a Gunslinger.

This explains my class of choice for PvP!

A blanket stat like "average K/D per class" doesn't do anything to capture the effectiveness of a given class across the skill-curve of the player base. For example, most mediocre players will do better with a Stormcaller than with a Defender because of the difference in Super abilities alone. It doesn't take much skill to get 3-4 kills per Stormtrance... so 2-3 Supers per game will make a significant bump in a player's average K/D between the 2 classes.

But some classes tend have a slightly more significant skill gap than others when it comes to using them successfully. In the right hands, a Bladedancer can be one of (if not the most) dangerous classes in the game. But it take just the right approach and skill level to use effectively. Same with Striker Titans. Strikers can very easily screw themselves over if they don't use their abilities just right; missing a shoulder charge or Fist of Havoc will make you a sitting duck, Lightning and Blinding grenades have the potential to seriously backfire if you're not careful, etc. But a Striker who really knows what they are doing is a true force to be reckoned with.

By comparison, it is much harder to really screw up with a Gunslinger. Their super doesn't have the same level of risk, their grenades are less likely to backfire, their jumps are easier to control, etc.

So yeah, I don't think stats like average K/D per class really tell the whole story.

This is the kind of problem I have with virtually EVERY "graph argument", in any genre. Politics, science, social ....there's a graph that presents raw data, sometimes there's a trend line drawn on, and conclusions are made based on what serves the party narrative. XY graphs, even XYZ graphs, are almost useless without context or info about other influencers (there are always more than one).