It was pretty much dead today at work due to the impending holiday weekend, so I spent a lot of time reading non-work related things. Long train of thought incoming.

This article about the Division's new DLC caught my eye because of the similarities between it and Destiny in the genre they occupy.

I found that the things the author described he was feeling about The Division mirror many of my feeling about Destiny- some sections I could even do a 'find and replace' between the two titles it was that spot on for me.

I've never experienced a game like Destiny before.

I never got into WoW or any other MMORPG type games.

As such, I'm finding myself having difficulty reconciling what I expect to get out of Destiny and getting older and having less time to game in general and to make the most of that time when I do.

(If Destiny came out while I was in college and had the Konami code for free time, I would likely feel much different about the game; I feel that much is certain)

Assess the mess.

I've fired up Destiny twice in the last week, which is more than I've touched it since December, so the first thing I set about doing was cleaning up my existing gear and the things that were optimal to me then.

After unpacking all the sterling treasures (had no idea what they were) and other rewards that had accumulated in my postmaster, I started to try to figure out what was worth keeping and what wasn't.

It immediately struck me how....inefficient it would be to try to level any gear right now with pending DLC on the way, because while it can add new content and things to do, it also undoes or devalues the work you've already done ("Hey that's a nice looking set of VoG armor you got there Titan, to bad it's SHIT compared to all this KF raid gear, which will soon be worthless with the RoI gear!")

This section of the article nails this-

"Time was, a gold high-end gun was basically a gold high-end gun, but nowadays the color of a piece of gear tells even less of the whole story. I’ve gotten new high-end guns that have a gear score of 182. I still have some that are only at 163. I’ve gotten coveted dark-green “set” gear items that are at 214. The people I’m matching with routinely have Gear Scores above 230, which makes me view all of my gear—including the sweet G36 assault rifle I just got—as junk that I’ll eventually replace.

Questions I now have to ask upon getting a new piece of gear:

What is the DPS? What is the armor rating?
What are the perks?
If I don’t like the perks, how much does it cost to re-roll them?
If it’s armor, how does it affect my various attributes?
If it’s set armor, which set is it part of? Is that a set I want? Or even have?
Above all else, what is the Gear Score rating?
The wrong answer to any of those questions can render a piece of loot either useless or, at best, only temporarily useful. When I think about weighing each piece of gear against all the other ones in my inventory, I mostly just feel tired."

Yep!

The gear I had last night I was sitting at a light level of 240-260; After sorting through the stuff I just got (mind you, for nothing, it was all in my postmaster) I was up to the 290-310 range.

Not bad. Still, this stuff I'm wearing is going to be garbage really soon... so I debated awhile before deciding to hop into the Strike playlist.

Then I started looking at all the other players around me...

Everyone is so unique that they somehow all look the same.

I look around and it must be an Iron Banner week, because there are matching emblems and wolf cloaks everywhere. K. I also wonder when Guardians lost their sense of style, because I see lots of neon and lights and just plain gross color combinations. Blehg!

It dawns on me while MM that I have no idea what the light cap is right now. I start to wonder, am I close? Far away? Should I level some gear so I can get a leg up on the new DLC, or will there be some consumable doo-dad that lets a non-regular player like me make up for lost time and skip all that grinding?

(from the article)

"When I started Underground, my gear score was 171. It’s now 196. I look around me and I see a sea of 231s, 233s, 240s, a stray 243. They all look the same to me, guys in grey military gear with (occasionally fluorescent) military guns, running around in circles before heading off on their next subterranean sortie. I think of how their gear is basically like my gear. I think about how all of our gear will be made irrelevant when the next DLC arrives. Then I think about all the other games I could be playing instead of this one."

Yep.

So I start to let my mind wander again... "what am I *expecting* to get out of this game?" keeps circulating in my mind. I'm not really looking at the world in front of me and enjoying the game play (which, FWIW, is still gorgeous and solid). I try to put it out of my mind.

Hey this Strike is different! But it's still the same....

I go to the strike playlist and see there are skulls now. Good ones too! SWEET.

Right off the bat it's the Undying Mind- but there's Taken enemies! (News for me) Ok, Taken enemies in spots... the boss fight is still the same.

Next strike is the Archon Prie- hey wait a minute, more Taken. Ok, guess that means this is like the last strik HEY THE BOSS IS TAKEN TOO WOAH oh it's like the Taken Lieutenant patrols. Darn.

I played one more strike to get the last of the marks I could earn and it played the same as the first.

So the addition of modifiers is pretty neat, and a good way to keep the experience fresh. I thought the Taken being in the strikes would be to, but ultimately was less satisfying. Once I understood the formula, the dance became mundane. I shouldn't feel like I'm 'going through the motions' in a game I have not played in 6 months that's been updated several times since I've been away.

(from the article)
"After an hour or so of blasting through increasingly difficult operations in Underground, the template became clear: Head into a mission, kill some dudes, go to another area, kill some more dudes, defend a point against some waves of dudes and kill a boss. Level up my Underground rank (separate from my overall level) to unlock more modifiers.

Another hour or two revealed some minor variations (these bad guys have a disruptor; this level has a slightly more interesting backdrop), but the template stayed the same. Playing with modifiers (ammo restrictions, no radar) makes things more interesting. Adding additional objectives makes missions last longer. But I already feel I’ve seen what there is to see."

Yep.

I feel like I've seen what there is to see.

I could go do the nightfall, but that would require me to level up more. To get gear with a high enough light level to infuse the stuff I have now (which by the way, glad to see that system is working better now and giving the FULL light value) I would need to do the Kings Fall raid. Well I don't have anyone to really do that with that hasn't already done it, and I don't want to hold anyone back, nor do I want to rush the experience like I did with Crota and not have fun. Even then, I have no idea if I'm leveled enough anyway.

The point I'm getting at, is I can SEE this path. I know where it goes, and I know that it's a crapshoot anyway once the new stuff is out and the current gear becomes obsolete.

(From the article)
"Were I to stick with Underground, I can see the future laid out in front of me. I’d start playing on challenging difficulty. I’d add more modifiers. Eventually I’d start to play on heroic difficulty. My Underground level would climb. I’d earn more and more Directive Intel and be able to afford more and more modifiers. The enemies I’d fight would absorb more and more and more bullets. The mission structure would remain basically the same.

All the while, my gear score would steadily climb. I’d replace my old guns with new guns that look the same but have a higher number. I’d get halfway to having a complete set of armor. I’d think about buying a blueprint and crafting something. I’d junk a lot of gear I didn’t want, and would gradually grow more and more numb to the endless repetition."

Yep. After those strikes I did I ended up ranking up with Dead Orbit and got a reward package. I got a Shader I'd been wanting since Y1 so that was nice, and I got a set of SPEKTAR arms that matched all the SPEKTAR armor I got for free at the postmaster, but I'd need to infuse this stuff to make it good, and to do that I'd need to play things and hope for engrams to drop. I thought about spending the marks I'd earned on gear to use to infuse it, but that seemed wasteful too.

Here I go again, worrying about stats and efficiency over fun and looks.

(From the article)

"As has always been the case with The Division, it remains difficult to get very excited about getting a new shotgun with slightly different perks, or a new grey backpack that holds more ammo. None of it fundamentally changes the way my character looks, nor how I play the game—my team and I roll into an area and hose down enemies until they’re all gone. Rinse and repeat."

This was the same with all the weapons I got as rewards too. I got another MIDA (still my favorite and still effective!) that is better that the 290 something one I had, but should I bother leveling this one up, when there might not be a Year 3 MIDA? I looked at all the new guns I had and started tying to see if the perks I had were something good or not, and ultimately decided to break them all down or use them to infuse things I know I like.

I'm disappointed this sentiment hasn't changed, but I'm not sure I can fault the game for that. It feels like I don't want to try these guns, as equal that I don't find them intriguing. Hard to say.

Groundhog Day

Six months ago I stopped playing because I saw where the treadmill was going and I didn't feel like running. Here I am today wondering if I want to get back on.

I have limited free time.

Destiny feels like it's a damn JOB if you want to keep up with that upper echelon of player. How some of you guys can find the time and mental fortitude to run multiple characters, I know not.

When something that should be fun, doesn't feel fun, then that is a sign you shouldn't be doing it.

But I DID have fun playing it. The levels look good. The gameplay is good, if not repetitive. But Halo is repetitive. Shit, I have played games in Halo Wars that lasted over an HOUR for one game and LOST and had fun. These games are all repetitive in one way or another.

The thing I can't figure out is why that repetitiveness or perceived repetitiveness impacts my enjoyment of Destiny but not other games. On the surface, they are the same damn thing.

Coke and Pepsi.

I have this nagging feeling that I should be liking this MORE but can't stop my mind from thinking about the metagame, the treadmill, how this is all structured to keep me coming back frequently.

It's like having a really tasty dessert and I can eat the whole thing, yet I don't want to.

(from the article)

"I’ve certainly gotten something out of my time with The Division. Steam tells me I’ve played almost 80 hours, which is actually higher than I would’ve thought. If I had a regular crew of friends to play with, I’m sure I’d stick around longer. But I don’t, so here I am: half a dozen operations under my belt, interest fading fast.

I’ll be back from time to time to casually play an operation or two, and I’m sure I’ll check out the next DLC when it hits. But it sure is hard to get back on the Division train once you’ve fallen off."

I don't know how many hours I have into Destiny, but the above sums it up. I still plan to play a little bit more here this weekend, but man, once you get off, it is hard getting back on.

(The thing that drew me back in this week is I'm hoping to start prop building again soon, and Destiny has some things I want to make, which means I need reference pictures! )

So, there it is. I'm glad to see you all still enjoying the current content and excited for the next round of content. Hoping I'll be able to as well!

I think I've put less than ten hours into Destiny total since the April Update, both consoles combined, methinks. The problem is that you're worrying about stats, which you have no reason to. Unless you're hopping into Iron Banner or Challenge of the Elders, stats mean pretty much nothing anymore. Play the game for 20 minutes, have some fun, then get off. It's that simple.

Want to experiment with a new gun? Use Motes of Light to level it, and have at it.

Want to run some strikes or a Raid? The hardest thing in the game requires you to be 310, and you're already above that. Play for fun, and don't worry about numbers or armor stats. Wear what looks neat (my Titan still has Year 1 White gauntlets), and STOP WORRYING ABIUT STATS. The game only becomes a job if you make it one.

- No text -

1. Equip the gear you want to level

2. Go to your inventory screen and find the motes.

3. Hold "x" a bunch of times

I think I've put less than ten hours into Destiny total since the April Update, both consoles combined, methinks. The problem is that you're worrying about stats, which you have no reason to. Unless you're hopping into Iron Banner or Challenge of the Elders, stats mean pretty much nothing anymore. Play the game for 20 minutes, have some fun, then get off. It's that simple.

Want to experiment with a new gun? Use Motes of Light to level it, and have at it.

Want to run some strikes or a Raid? The hardest thing in the game requires you to be 310, and you're already above that. Play for fun, and don't worry about numbers or armor stats. Wear what looks neat (my Titan still has Year 1 White gauntlets), and STOP WORRYING ABIUT STATS. The game only becomes a job if you make it one.

I'm of 2 minds on your approach here. On the one hand, I think you're totally right in a way. But on the other hand, what you're saying can be interpreted as "this game is way more fun if you ignore/don't engage with a bunch of the stuff that Bungie put in there". I agree that the act of levelling stuff up, worrying about specs, min/maxing builds can all lead to more frustration than they're worth. But that stuff is in the game for a reason. For some people, fine-tuning a build so that you abilities and gear and perks all compliment each other in just the right way is very satisfying. Bungie knows this. The problem is that achieving those "goals" is way more of a pain in the ass than it should be. Same goes for the levelling-up mechanics.

I've had people respond to me in a similar way in the past, when I've complained about how frustrating it can be to run the raid 50 times and still not get the gun I wanted. Some would say "if you're not having fun, just don't do that!". But to me, the fun of this game is very much dependant on the weapons. Using a variety of weapons I enjoy is what keeps the combat fresh and exciting. So I don't like the fact that reaching the stuff I enjoy is often buried beneath a bunch of frustrating RNG or other mechanics.

Destiny is easier than ever level up if that is your shtick. That being said, there is no real reason to level up if you don't want to do it. I play with year 1 gear all the time.

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I want to experiment with a new gun. Jade rabbit? Nope, fuck you. RNG only. It's not so simple dude. The game is still stacked against you.

You put the problem so succinctly. If you can have more fun ignoring all these aspects of the game, then why are they even in the game? It would be better without them. This is all so plain and simple to see I cannot believe it isn't universally agreed upon.

It's funny, actually. I started playing The Division a couple weeks ago (free with vidya card), and I actually like it quite a bit. Though there's the question of gear min/maxing, its never really hindering me. Just let's me feel like the bit of work I put in is worth it now that I feel more powerful. I realize this'll get nauseating in the end game just as Destiny does, but for now I enjoy the content as I progress. And I think for me that's why I actually like The Division quite a bit more than Destiny: The content.

Both games feature repetitive tasks and enemies, sure. But what the Division has that Destiny does not is a much larger play space and a lot more narrative content. Sure, it may not be great American literature quality narrative, but it was a lot more than Destiny had to offer.

Those are the things that I like most about the games I play. Spaces, characters, and stories that are enjoyable to participate in. It's not about gear, or weapons, or vehicles, or any of that. Those all matter, of course, but unless I enjoy existing in the world I don't care. And honestly, I feel like Destiny (as it exists today) is mostly a shell. An excuse for you to play with others, a place that doesn't get in your way when you want to play socially. And for me, that is a failure.

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Everything you're describing, I think, comes back to the issue of Destiny's "treadmill" in one way or another. It concerns me too. What I find the most troubling is how quickly Bungie has leaned into the "treadmill" side of Destiny in ways that could be considered lazy. A year ago, I never would have guessed how much time Destiny players would spend in year 2 re-aquiring, re-upgrading, and re-levelling gear we had already collected in year 1. Not only is Bungie recycling old gear and making us grind for it all over again, they're pitching it to us as if it's something we should be excited about! It seems short-sighted to me. This is a pattern that will provide diminishing returns. Each new expansion will raise the light level yet again, so we can grind all over again for the same weapons we were using a year earlier, only now they have higher numbers attached to them... It's all just so obviously fruitless to me. Are players going to continue to be excited by this pattern as it continues? How many times can Bungie sell us the idea of chasing down The Last Word yet again before the community at large stops being excited for it?

I'm of 2 minds on your approach here. On the one hand, I think you're totally right in a way. But on the other hand, what you're saying can be interpreted as "this game is way more fun if you ignore/don't engage with a bunch of the stuff that Bungie put in there". I agree that the act of levelling stuff up, worrying about specs, min/maxing builds can all lead to more frustration than they're worth. But that stuff is in the game for a reason. For some people, fine-tuning a build so that you abilities and gear and perks all compliment each other in just the right way is very satisfying. Bungie knows this. The problem is that achieving those "goals" is way more of a pain in the ass than it should be. Same goes for the levelling-up mechanics.

I've had people respond to me in a similar way in the past, when I've complained about how frustrating it can be to run the raid 50 times and still not get the gun I wanted. Some would say "if you're not having fun, just don't do that!". But to me, the fun of this game is very much dependant on the weapons. Using a variety of weapons I enjoy is what keeps the combat fresh and exciting. So I don't like the fact that reaching the stuff I enjoy is often buried beneath a bunch of frustrating RNG or other mechanics.

You're right, but that doesn't mean those people are wrong. Your idea of fun baffles me personally. Part of the reason I love year 2 is because the really interesting guns all involve quests with steps I can follow to get them. I don't own almost any of the legendary guns that most people do because I just don't think it's worth the frustration to get them with the perfect roll. But I also have a vast array of guns I DO love, so why should I care?

The argument about "why did Bungie put it in then?" always bothers me because it implies that the game is made for a very limited set of playstyles. Those things ARE satisfying to SOME people, but most people I play with either don't care or have those ideas as passive goals. To my play style they ADD fun to the always fun moment to moment gameplay because I get random moments when my gear does improve or I find a gun that I like (hell, I admit I even enjoy just looking at the new gear even if it sucks). But I have no interest in doggedly pursuing the perfect setup, and I actually think despite what a lot of people think that Bungie doesn't expect the majority of players to chase the perfect setup in any kind of active way. If they had expected it then I don't think we would have seen as many improvements in the drop system because they would purposefully have been trying to drag everything out.

That doesn't mean I think you play the game WRONG, but the changes in the drop system in year 2 tend to help you get to a light level to play any activity you want quickly without losing your favorite gear. The rest is gravy.

Edit: This sounds more argumentative than I meant it. TL;DR: It's because they play differently than you, and that's not a bad thing.

I hear you. It's not fun to rebuy things you already earned. I could be wrong, but my understanding of giving everything year 2 versions was to reset the sandbox and make certain guns less prominent. It also forced us to try new stuff out as we saved up the marks to get our favorite old gear back. Getting marks is easy enough and I only had a few I "needed' to get back so I mostly enjoyed the process.

I'm not sure we'll see the same thing in year 3 because the sandbox isn't quite as skewed towards a few weapons. I get killed by a much more diverse array of guns now the I ever did in year 1. We'll see though.

I'm of 2 minds on your approach here. On the one hand, I think you're totally right in a way. But on the other hand, what you're saying can be interpreted as "this game is way more fun if you ignore/don't engage with a bunch of the stuff that Bungie put in there". I agree that the act of levelling stuff up, worrying about specs, min/maxing builds can all lead to more frustration than they're worth. But that stuff is in the game for a reason. For some people, fine-tuning a build so that you abilities and gear and perks all compliment each other in just the right way is very satisfying. Bungie knows this. The problem is that achieving those "goals" is way more of a pain in the ass than it should be. Same goes for the levelling-up mechanics.

I've had people respond to me in a similar way in the past, when I've complained about how frustrating it can be to run the raid 50 times and still not get the gun I wanted. Some would say "if you're not having fun, just don't do that!". But to me, the fun of this game is very much dependant on the weapons. Using a variety of weapons I enjoy is what keeps the combat fresh and exciting. So I don't like the fact that reaching the stuff I enjoy is often buried beneath a bunch of frustrating RNG or other mechanics.

You're right, but that doesn't mean those people are wrong. Your idea of fun baffles me personally. Part of the reason I love year 2 is because the really interesting guns all involve quests with steps I can follow to get them. I don't own almost any of the legendary guns that most people do because I just don't think it's worth the frustration to get them with the perfect roll. But I also have a vast array of guns I DO love, so why should I care?

The argument about "why did Bungie put it in then?" always bothers me because it implies that the game is made for a very limited set of playstyles. Those things ARE satisfying to SOME people, but most people I play with either don't care or have those ideas as passive goals. To my play style they ADD fun to the always fun moment to moment gameplay because I get random moments when my gear does improve or I find a gun that I like (hell, I admit I even enjoy just looking at the new gear even if it sucks). But I have no interest in doggedly pursuing the perfect setup, and I actually think despite what a lot of people think that Bungie doesn't expect the majority of players to chase the perfect setup in any kind of active way. If they had expected it then I don't think we would have seen as many improvements in the drop system because they would purposefully have been trying to drag everything out.

That doesn't mean I think you play the game WRONG, but the changes in the drop system in year 2 tend to help you get to a light level to play any activity you want quickly without losing your favorite gear. The rest is gravy.

Edit: This sounds more argumentative than I meant it. TL;DR: It's because they play differently than you, and that's not a bad thing.

I totally hear where you're coming from. As I said in my response to Munky, I'm half there myself. But... doesn't it strike you as a bit backwards that in order to enjoy Destiny's "investment" system, you can't be, well, invested in it? I should clarify, I'm not one of the min-maxers that I was referencing in my post above. I don't have obsess over getting perfect specs on my armor or stuff like that. I do enjoy options, however. I enjoy having a bunch of fun weapons to experiment with, and the ability to try different playstyles and tactics. Because the activities I enjoy are almost always high-level activities (Trials, IB, Raids), my gear needs to be high level and competitive. I don't mind losing in the crucible because I was outplayed. I DO mind losing because the enemy team has better weapons and abilities than I do. In this regard, Destiny can be extrememly frustrating.

I also can't agree with you that "the really interesting guns [in year 2] all involve quests with steps I can follow to get them". Some of them do, yes. And that's great. But literally none of the top-tier PvP weapons can be attained through quests (with the possible exception of Tlaloc). They're all completely RNG dependent.

At this point right now, I'm in a great place with Destiny. I don't have all the gear I would like to have, but I've got enough that I can go from game mode to game mode and play however I feel like playing at the moment. It's great. The problem is that it took ~8 months and hundreds of hours of play to reach that point, purely because of RNG. NOW I can just play casually, get loads of useless drops without caring, get a happy surprise once in a while, and just roll with it all. But I went months without having an auto rifle that was good enough to take into trials and be competitive, which sucks. For every weapon I now enjoy, there were dozens of hours spent playing with hopes of getting drops I could have fun with, and the frequent disappointment that came with that. Not getting the gun I want to try, finally getting the gun but with crappy perks, getting the gun with cool perks but at a crappy light level, then spending hours playing activities I didn't want to play because they were the only way to get high-level infusion fodder, playing those activities over and over and over before RNG FINALLY gave me infusion fodder I can use... It is a crappy, crappy loop that this game creates. And yes I care about getting fun weapons because, well, they're fun! As I said before, that is the part of the game I really enjoy.

Obviously not everyone cares about the same things I do, and everyone has their own individual things they enjoy... but I don't think my complaints are focused on elements that are specifically enjoyed by others. The thing I keep harping on again and again and again is that I think arbitrary barriers are harming this game. RNG is almost always and arbitrary barrier. "Want a Black Spindle? Cool. Here's this awesome way to get it, if you're good enough. Want a Zen Meteor? Fuck you. Play for 300 hours and we might give you one. Unless you're on Xbox, then double fuck you (;p)". See what I'm getting at? I want to see more Black Spindles in Destiny, less Zen Meteors. :)

I also can't agree with you that "the really interesting guns [in year 2] all involve quests with steps I can follow to get them". Some of them do, yes. And that's great. But literally none of the top-tier PvP weapons can be attained through quests (with the possible exception of Tlaloc). They're all completely RNG dependent.

When I say "The really interesting guns" I'm not talking about good roll legendaries. I'm talking about the TRULY unique guns, mainly the exotics that function incredibly differently, and the class specific weapons. The top-tier PvP weapons are not really all that unique, just good stats for the (current) meta.

All that said, I definitely understand why you feel the way you do, it's kind of the same thing with ANY loot based RPG. I think Bungie will continue to improve it, but I don't think it's ever going to get to the point where you can get exactly the legendary gun you want quickly, just like with most of these types of games. That's part of the reason I ditched Borderlands is because I DIDN'T enjoy the gameplay and the RNG drove me nuts on top of it. With Destiny I just enjoy the gameplay enough I don't care :) (and I'm glad you're partially there too).

I agree with your assessment. That's why I almost exclusively PvP. Destiny's PvP has depth to it that other FPS games simply don't. Beyond pure gunskill or loadout selection, there's an incredible layering of movement, positioning, and teamwork that makes it all very interesting to me, and which I've been frustratingly unable to master.

But the PvE? Boring as hell. Every enemy feels quite a bit like every other enemy (though at least the taken have a modicum of abilities which make fighting them more interesting). There's no real need for strategy, and experimentation is punished rather than rewarded. The name of the PvE game is efficiency rather than fun, and that's very disappointing. I actually like Challenge of Elders because the points present an optimization problem and (unbelievably) a vector for friendly competition with my friends. Other than this, the only friendly competition in the game is classic rumble, which at best still has 3 strangers messing with your fun.

Anyway, yes, this game, the Division, WoW - they're all treadmill games. The danger is that the designers of these games often use a metric of "time spent playing" as the basis for evaluating how good the game is. That's bullshit imo. I can spend 5 hours in Destiny and have no fun at all if I keep wiping on Oryx due to bugs, one person's single mistake, or a lag spike, or any other number of things. That doesn't mean I like the game. PvP I enjoy, but there remains a vast room for improvement with game modes, team play, ranked leagues, custom modes, etc. The game is good *despite itself* and not because someone made good design choices with the investment strategy, but rather somehow, impossibly, those bad choices aren't so bad as to take away completely from the core joy of moving and shooting.

But that's all destiny is. Good movement and good shooting. Where I'm shooting isn't interesting (though it should be), what I'm shooting isn't interesting (though it should be) and why I'm shooting really isn't even a part of the game (though, for the love of god, it should be).

I found that the Division at level 30 is completely different from the game at levels 1-29. Instead of being about cover, good shooting, and having fun (and let's be clear, I loved levels 1-29; that was awesome), it's about grinding, long duration stuns, and min-maxing dps to kill the suddenly bullet-sponge enemies before they 1-shot you.

You put the problem so succinctly. If you can have more fun ignoring all these aspects of the game, then why are they even in the game? It would be better without them. This is all so plain and simple to see I cannot believe it isn't universally agreed upon.

I agree with you. They're in the game because Destiny hired an addition expert (literally a slot machine designer) to put psychological hooks into the game in order to create addictive feedback loops *everywhere* to keep people playing.

I'm sure the Deeply Flawed Raiders would be happy to have you. I can't really claim to speak for the group any more as Im not often there, but they've been happy to have my rusty, out of practice Titan join them on occasion.

I found that the Division at level 30 is completely different from the game at levels 1-29. Instead of being about cover, good shooting, and having fun (and let's be clear, I loved levels 1-29; that was awesome), it's about grinding, long duration stuns, and min-maxing dps to kill the suddenly bullet-sponge enemies before they 1-shot you.

Yeah, no I'm not max level yet, nor am I done with the game. And more than likely I'll drop it once I've completed the main story if it remains that bad once I get there. But according to uPlay I'm 16 hours in and 56% through the story. That's a really good amount of content a first play through.

One thing I like about The Division is the sense that you're helping clean things up. Now, I realize that the only semblance of that progress is that most of the side missions disappear from your map once you've done/they are not repayable. Those tasks were "accomplished." One thing that I think might make Destiny's bounties a little more tolerable would be things that have a specific impact on the world. Ok, there's something happening in this particular area of Patrol, can you go take care of it? You go there, you take care of it, it's done and it doesn't happen around that area for you again. I know that's made more difficult by Destiny's shared patrol spaces, but frankly I never found having other players around was really that big a deal. Maybe it'd be better if people were only pulled together in a public event scenario, or one of these bounty "missions." Either way, a lot of the bounties and missions are either replaying existing linear content or accomplishment counters that have no impact on the world. Accomplishment counters feel pointless and replaying linear content is pointless if the content is bland, especially the first time through. (Which IMO, Destiny is pretty bland)

IDK why, but The Division's story and (especially its) atmosphere have a lot of pull.

But I DID have fun playing it. The levels look good. The gameplay is good, if not repetitive. But Halo is repetitive. Shit, I have played games in Halo Wars that lasted over an HOUR for one game and LOST and had fun. These games are all repetitive in one way or another.

The thing I can't figure out is why that repetitiveness or perceived repetitiveness impacts my enjoyment of Destiny but not other games. On the surface, they are the same damn thing.

Coke and Pepsi.

It is Coke and Pepsi, but Coke gives you the entire glass bottle to begin with, whereas Pepsi starts you out with a little disposable paper cone-cup with the tease of a nice glass bottle down the road...after you upgrade to a used solo cup, then aluminum can and so on.

At least the drink is still good?

- MacGyver10

I'm sure the Deeply Flawed Raiders would be happy to have you.

Indeed. We actually tried to invite Revenant the other night, but got no response. :(

I found that the Division at level 30 is completely different from the game at levels 1-29. Instead of being about cover, good shooting, and having fun (and let's be clear, I loved levels 1-29; that was awesome), it's about grinding, long duration stuns, and min-maxing dps to kill the suddenly bullet-sponge enemies before they 1-shot you.

Yeah, no I'm not max level yet, nor am I done with the game. And more than likely I'll drop it once I've completed the main story if it remains that bad once I get there. But according to uPlay I'm 16 hours in and 56% through the story. That's a really good amount of content a first play through.

One thing I like about The Division is the sense that you're helping clean things up. Now, I realize that the only semblance of that progress is that most of the side missions disappear from your map once you've done/they are not repayable. Those tasks were "accomplished." One thing that I think might make Destiny's bounties a little more tolerable would be things that have a specific impact on the world. Ok, there's something happening in this particular area of Patrol, can you go take care of it? You go there, you take care of it, it's done and it doesn't happen around that area for you again. I know that's made more difficult by Destiny's shared patrol spaces, but frankly I never found having other players around was really that big a deal. Maybe it'd be better if people were only pulled together in a public event scenario, or one of these bounty "missions." Either way, a lot of the bounties and missions are either replaying existing linear content or accomplishment counters that have no impact on the world. Accomplishment counters feel pointless and replaying linear content is pointless if the content is bland, especially the first time through. (Which IMO, Destiny is pretty bland)

IDK why, but The Division's story and (especially its) atmosphere have a lot of pull.

I fully agree. I enjoyed my play though the game a lot. It was great! I got my money's worth with about 25 hours of play to get to max level and finish the story. But everything after that was utter crap. Really disappointingly so. The endgame is a completely different game from the leveling up and story game.

FWIW the vendor hawksaw right now is an S-tier primary you can buy without needing to pray to the RNG gods.

For secondary weapon, the raid sniper is A-tier if not S-tier. RNG to be sure, but very high probability RNG from a controllable farm.

Heavy weapon it's Truth or Thunderlord depending on your preference, both RNG drops, but most players have them by now.

So at least a competitive loadout is possible without much RNG, even if it's not ideal. I agree that there should be less RNG in the game, especially when it comes to getting competitive item drops; just pointing this out in case you're looking to fill a specific need.

The thing I can't figure out is why that repetitiveness or perceived repetitiveness impacts my enjoyment of Destiny but not other games. On the surface, they are the same damn thing.

http://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=6921

They are not the same thing, and there's your answer as to why. I realized I link to old posts a lot, but that's just because I foresaw these problems.

I'm sure the Deeply Flawed Raiders would be happy to have you.

Indeed. We actually tried to invite Revenant the other night, but got no response. :(

Sorry man, I turned notification off on dash when I was running through Doom.

You put the problem so succinctly. If you can have more fun ignoring all these aspects of the game, then why are they even in the game? It would be better without them. This is all so plain and simple to see I cannot believe it isn't universally agreed upon.

Late to the party, because I've had limited internet access for a bit... but the answer to your question is as obvious to me as your confusion is to you.

SOME people have fun ignoring those aspects of the game. OTHER people really enjoy those aspects of the game. Your question really boils down to "why can't we make a game with the absolute minimum number of features that please EVERYONE, with no features that only please a subset of the population?"

And the answer to that is actually simple: because it would be over in less time than it would take to launch. :)

Not getting the gun I want to try, finally getting the gun but with crappy perks, getting the gun with cool perks but at a crappy light level, then spending hours playing activities I didn't want to play because they were the only way to get high-level infusion fodder, playing those activities over and over and over before RNG FINALLY gave me infusion fodder I can use... It is a crappy, crappy loop that this game creates. And yes I care about getting fun weapons because, well, they're fun! As I said before, that is the part of the game I really enjoy.

Just wanted to jump in and say I feel like you're overstating the crappy, crappy loop here. The first two steps of your crappy loop are real... the second two are filler you added to make your loop seem more unreasonable. I refuse to accept that those two steps aren't automatically completed by the time steps 1 and 2 have been completed. :)

SOME people have fun ignoring those aspects of the game. OTHER people really enjoy those aspects of the game. Your question really boils down to "why can't we make a game with the absolute minimum number of features that please EVERYONE, with no features that only please a subset of the population?"

I feel the opposite. I think you should work really hard to add features that only appeal to a subset. Look at the raids. Destiny would be kinda shit without them. Yet few people play them, and fewer people have finished them going by trophy data.

SOME people have fun ignoring those aspects of the game. OTHER people really enjoy those aspects of the game. Your question really boils down to "why can't we make a game with the absolute minimum number of features that please EVERYONE, with no features that only please a subset of the population?"

I feel the opposite. I think you should work really hard to add features that only appeal to a subset. Look at the raids. Destiny would be kinda shit without them. Yet few people play them, and fewer people have finished them going by trophy data.

Your first argument was "if you can remove a feature and the game is more fun, you should remove it." For many, many people, the raid is not fun (too hard, to exacting, whatever). In this case, however, you're saying "if the feature I want to play the most is not universally loved, put it in anyway."

I don't think you're being particularly consistent. :(

SOME people have fun ignoring those aspects of the game. OTHER people really enjoy those aspects of the game. Your question really boils down to "why can't we make a game with the absolute minimum number of features that please EVERYONE, with no features that only please a subset of the population?"

I feel the opposite. I think you should work really hard to add features that only appeal to a subset. Look at the raids. Destiny would be kinda shit without them. Yet few people play them, and fewer people have finished them going by trophy data.

Your first argument was "if you can remove a feature and the game is more fun, you should remove it." For many, many people, the raid is not fun (too hard, to exacting, whatever). In this case, however, you're saying "if the feature I want to play the most is not universally loved, put it in anyway."

I don't think you're being particularly consistent. :(

The raid does not harm the players who don't enjoy it by it existing. That is the difference.