Might as well, you can't get any worse ;p <3

Could be wrong though. Might have been TTK. I havent really enjoyed Y2 PvP as much, it all blurs into one.

I tend to stick to less teamplay required gametypes though, mainly skirmish, control and clash.

I find it odd you stick Skirmish in here, which is played most effectively as a team. Give me two people who understand that revives add up to a lot of points and that attacking 2 vs 1 is better than 1 vs 1 and I'll demolish you in skirmish (barring that you're on the same skill level as me, and not amaze-balls good).

I also look at Control and even Clash as team games though I would agree that most other people probably don't think of these as team-heavy or team-necessary games.

I think most people would do much better, especially on Clash, if they focused on controlling an area of the map as a team. The two biggest reasons to control one area of the map and stick to it is to control where your teammates spawn into and where the safe zone to run is. A byproduct of this is controlling where the enemy can attack you, which gives you the advantage. That should be obvious.

In Clash, it is important not to needlessly die. If you are injured, and you can retreat or take cover, it helps to know for certain where the safe zone is. It also helps to drag enemies that are chasing you into the line of fire of your teammates. I do this constantly, it's quite effective.

However, most people play Clash just chasing each other in circles. Drives me nuts. Seriously, next time you play Clash, especially a match with a lot of shotgunners (I'm looking at all of you camoflauging bladedancers out there), you will see that both teams are more or less chasing each other in a circle around the map. If you stop moving in the circle, you immediately control who's coming at you and from where ( you just have to be cognizant of this and make a choice, preferrably as a team).

I find the biggest reason I die in Clash matches is that I have outlived all my teammates in an area without realizing they have all spawned else where and now I am surrounded/have no back up. It's one of my least favorite feelings.

I wish there was a good way to experiment with this though, but anything that requires coordination is difficult to achieve in the Crucible regardless of playing solo or as a team.

Anyways, my two cents about team games and how it relates to Clash.

I was playing a Clash match on Bannerfall last week, and 6 times in a row (I made sure to count) I died because the enemy team spawned directly behind me and gunned me down with their greater numbers, which made me respawn on the opposite side of the map, then as soon as I moved forward the enemy spawned behind me, repeat for 3 minutes. It was infuriating, and it kept happening because everyone else on my time would instantly rush into the middle of the map and die.

I have better chances getting the wins solo than I do with 2 friends.

I feel like this is a problem. With everyone so sweaty at the moment, it's hard to play with friends without someone having a bad time. I'm less likely to play with the people I want, and that goes against everything Destiny, to me.

The easy solution is to not worry about the bounties if you're playing with people on a different level than you are. ;)

(Last night, I got pulled into a fun group I rarely play with. The range between the top player and the bottom was enormous - there was no way trueskill, or any other system, had a CHANCE of matching us up against reasonable opponents, because what would that look like? We steamrolled some teams (20k-8k, in one instance),and got obliterated by others... but it was fun. And because I'd been pulled in directly from a Prison of Elders solo run, I didn't have any Crucible bounties at all - which made it EASY not to care about specific kinds of wins, or kills, or whatever. I just played, to the best of my ability, and I enjoyed myself.

::shrug::

(And sometimes it's ALL about the bounties. There's no single answer to the question.)

I look forward to the new gametype in Rise because of the snipers. It won't eliminate them, just make them a little less valuable.

I was thinking the same thing. Still, I firmly believe that something needs to be done to change the way snipers mechanically behave. There is too much auto-aim, they're too quick to scope and fire, there's too much ammo... they just dominate the map in a way that no weapon should, IMO.

No, and to be completely honest, I'm enjoying it less and less with friends as time goes on.

I'm sure I sound like a broken record at this point, but for me, Sniper rifles have gone from being an annoyance to borderline ruining the game for me (at times). I'm just sick of being quickscoped by run-and-gun snipers who are able to pull of the most insane insta-headshots, or spending the entire match dealing with campers who are able to hit headshot after headshot despite the fact that I'm hitting them in the face with Mida or Jade Rabbit or whatever. I don't hold it against the players who are able to do this... it requires skill, no doubt about it. It just seems like a skill that trumps all others. As someone who's never enjoyed sniping, it frustrates me to no end that there really is no good reliable way to counter snipers other than out-sniping them. And the more time goes by, the better those uber-snipers continue to get.

lol - and I've been playing with someone this past week who's been saying almost every night that Shotguns should be removed from the game. It's all about what you DON'T have, not what you do. ;)

So if snipers are out, and shotguns are out, then that leaves…

I am totally okay with that :-)

No, and to be completely honest, I'm enjoying it less and less with friends as time goes on.

I'm sure I sound like a broken record at this point, but for me, Sniper rifles have gone from being an annoyance to borderline ruining the game for me (at times). I'm just sick of being quickscoped by run-and-gun snipers who are able to pull of the most insane insta-headshots, or spending the entire match dealing with campers who are able to hit headshot after headshot despite the fact that I'm hitting them in the face with Mida or Jade Rabbit or whatever. I don't hold it against the players who are able to do this... it requires skill, no doubt about it. It just seems like a skill that trumps all others. As someone who's never enjoyed sniping, it frustrates me to no end that there really is no good reliable way to counter snipers other than out-sniping them. And the more time goes by, the better those uber-snipers continue to get.

lol - and I've been playing with someone this past week who's been saying almost every night that Shotguns should be removed from the game. It's all about what you DON'T have, not what you do. ;)

heh, I'd take your friend to task on that one :)

Shotguns are great. In the right hands, they can be extremely effective. I get killed by them plenty of times. But I don't consider them a problem because
a) if you know they are there, they can be easily avoided (a team with 2 or 3 snipers is impossible to avoid, unless your plan is to hide for the entire match)
b) if you know they are there, they can be easily countered (snipers can so effectively insta-kill even while taking fire that can't be reliably countered by any other weapon)
c) they are deadly within a very specific range. Outside that range, they are utterly useless (snipers can 1-hit-kill from any range, and are insanely effective at close-mid range thanks to low zoom scopes, quick draw, high magnetism, etc)
d) while potentially deadly, using a shotgun fundamentally requires the user to put themselves in extremely risky situations (snipers have the luxury of keeping their distance, but can still be deadly even if you push up and engage from close range. Getting close to a sniper does very little to negate their advantage)

The issue for me is range. Shotguns may be an easier kill (by which I mean the gap vetween a good and bad shotgunner isn't as large as between a good and bad sniper), but you have to work harder for it regardless of skill level - you have to put yourself directly in the firing line and almost definitely take some fire to get your kill.

A sniper's range on the other hand means that a good sniper is much, much safer than a good shotgunner. Additionally, their much larger effective kill radius gives them a power move shotgunners don't get - A hardscoped sniper can lock down an entire lane (through kills and fear) unlike anything else in the game (even supers have a time limit). Destiny's movement is such that you can escape almost any engagement (even shotgunners due to their short range) but a sniper can kill at extreme range in the time it takes to cross a doorway, while remaining off your radar and relatively safe.

To quote pwadigy, snipers are downright oppressive in a way shotgunners just aren't.

I have all the good shotguns, I just don't understand them in a universe where there's only one enemy that gets all in your grill on a consistent basis (Thrall). If I was a weapons manufacturer in the Destiny universe, shotguns would be very low on my product development list.

It's all about being true to the universe :)

lol - and I've been playing with someone this past week who's been saying almost every night that Shotguns should be removed from the game. It's all about what you DON'T have, not what you do. ;)

I don't get this argument at all. Shotguns have received nerfs. Sniper rifles seem to just be stupidly unbalanced. Neither shotguns nor sniper rifles should be removed completely, but something definitely needs to be done in the balancing equation on sniper rifles right now.

Edit: Shotguns probably could use some tweaking as well, though I'm not necessarily clear yet on what I'd want to do with them. I would put sniper rifle balancing at a higher priority at this point, but both definitely need work.

Your hatred of snipers (as one who enjoys sniping but isn't INCREDIBLY talented at it like some are) is more or less how I feel about shotguns. When I'm not sniping and playing close range, I hate getting someone 4/5ths of the way to a kill to be saved by a 1-shot, long range shotgun.

As I said in one of my other posts, the difference to me is that a shotgunner is putting themselves in serious danger by getting close enough to you to use their shotgun (unless they catch you by surprise, in which case I'd say they outplayed you and deserve the kill anyway). I have certainly had moments of frustration against shotguns, but more often than not I am in a situation that favors the shotgun and I got honestly outplayed. Snipers, on the other hand, have the advantage at almost any range. They can quick-scope you from 15 feet away just as effectively as they can from across the map.

Just as you want someone to flinch while being hit by bullets while sniping, I think people should flinch/stagger by default from any bullet so they can't just charge and shotgun you. I think bullets should effect grenade accuracy too.

Honestly, whole PVP game improves if every bullet causes you flinch and stagger, and no perk takes it away. Just my opinion though.

That's an interesting idea. I'm not sure how I feel about it one way or the other. Seems to me like it would put more emphasis on "whoever fires the first shot wins" gameplay. Less likelihood of reacting and returning fire in a successful way. That's not necessarily a bad thing... just different.

Sidenote: I really don't understand shotguns in the world of Destiny. Who's developing these guns that you hardly use in PvE? It's an area of technology that doesn't seem to have enough use in the universe to warrant the time spent researching and developing better shotguns. The only plausible use of shotguns would be hordes of Thrall attacking you. It's really the only time in the story/universe where a shotgun would be the most useful weapon. Weapons better suited to the task of eradicating the darkness would have been designed and created in this universe. You'd focus on being able to take out targets from easy safe distances. But I'm probably putting more thought into this than people think I should.

I loved shotguns in PvE back when they received that 100% damage boost. They were a blast. Still don't understand why Bungie went back on that change :-/

Sidenote: I really don't understand shotguns in the world of Destiny. Who's developing these guns that you hardly use in PvE? It's an area of technology that doesn't seem to have enough use in the universe to warrant the time spent researching and developing better shotguns. The only plausible use of shotguns would be hordes of Thrall attacking you. It's really the only time in the story/universe where a shotgun would be the most useful weapon. Weapons better suited to the task of eradicating the darkness would have been designed and created in this universe. You'd focus on being able to take out targets from easy safe distances. But I'm probably putting more thought into this than people think I should.

Even then, an Auto Rifle would probably handle the masses of thrall better, yes? The only time a shotgun is good in PvE is when you want to do a quick burst of damage up close, but the amount of damage isn't enough to take down a significant opponent, and thrall usually overwhelm you faster than you can fire a shotty...

You must not main a Titan.

Sidenote: I really don't understand shotguns in the world of Destiny. Who's developing these guns that you hardly use in PvE? It's an area of technology that doesn't seem to have enough use in the universe to warrant the time spent researching and developing better shotguns. The only plausible use of shotguns would be hordes of Thrall attacking you. It's really the only time in the story/universe where a shotgun would be the most useful weapon. Weapons better suited to the task of eradicating the darkness would have been designed and created in this universe. You'd focus on being able to take out targets from easy safe distances. But I'm probably putting more thought into this than people think I should.

Who doesn't use shotguns in PvE? When it comes to doing something challenging or new I always default back to Invective and No Backup Plans. Yes, shotguns got something of a nerf from their historic high of +200% damage, but I think they still do 150% more damage than they did two years ago.

As for in universe... Most of our enemies can appear anywhere either via dropships or transmat or teleporting in from an alternate dimension. Except for maybe the City, there are no safe distances. It sounds like we enjoyed a period of relative safety across the Earth for the past few hundred years but couldn't really appreciate it (outside of The City) since our society had been completely destroyed. But go to the Moon, or Venus, or Mars and you have Hive cutting through physical reality to rain Thrall and Acolytes on your head. Or you have Fallen decloaking directly above you. Or you have Vex dropping in from another when and where. Or you have a Cabal fleet overhead constantly hounding you with dropship after dropship.

Aside from Destiny shotguns being your typical infinite power up close, no damage beyond 5 feet kind of video game weapons, I would think some Guardians (who really can't permanently die during normal combat) would absolutely carry around one of these shotguns. :)

Good call. I usually just end up putting in my headphones anyway and make random callouts so people think I'm still listening.

Because yes, it's cheating.

Worth noting that a Titan at least can escape it. But only if you dont have any friends nearby to chain lightning into you.

Objectively, the Nightstalker, Sunbreaker and Stormcaller are better then their counterparts in the majority of aspects in PVP. People still held on to broken Sunsingers for the grenades and rez, but really in a objective game type Stormcallers are the superior choice. Sunbreakers were so broken that bungie had to nerf them since that was all anyone would play in 6v6.

Bladedancers are the highest risk class, and now that blink has been nerfed into oblivion, it's only used for the bonus quickdraw perk and skip grenades. The super is the 2nd easiest to counter (gunslinger is the easiest). Stealth is still very limited and tough to use, as well as easily visible to scoped snipers and close in.

I would really like to see a return of blink to a useful jump. In my opinion, the nerfs to blink's cool down, weapon ready times and regeneration are what have pushed the envelope, along with the general primary range nerfs, that have lead to the dominance of snipers. It's just too risky to close the distance on a sniper. You are either in sniper range, or TLW all the time and ceed the initiative to the sniper.

As evidence, you see lots of 'nought titans with Twilight Garrison for the added mobility doing rushing these days. With Titan skating, TG, and Shoulder Charge they can close the distance with the least risk.

The them not having to hear me may sound silly but I think it's kinda an important courtesy I extend. :p

Obviously you are not complaining in an entertaining enough fashion. I think Up North has some phrases we could adopt.