Underwhelmed with Rise of Iron Story

Full disclosure up front, I was not very optimistic about Rise of Iron before it launched and I doubt I've played it as much as many of you. Here is a (not so) short list of the plot points I find truly bothersome in Rise of Iron.

My first gripe with Rise of Iron is Omnigel, err, I mean SIVA. But we might as well call it Omnigel (from Mass Effect). Without any actual explanation of what it is, it is simply an omni-purpose technology that space-magically can be used to create all sorts of things. I am so disappointed in this plot device. I am all for an out of control nano-technology run amok, but give it some parameters and give me an explanation as to what it is. How unsatisfying is it to just be told that it can do many things without any mention of how it does said things?

To make this worse, inexplicably (literally, it is not explained hardly at all) the Fallen are after it. To be clear what I mean, I mean that the Fallen are pursuing the SIVA technology. This implies a knowledge of its existence, experience with it as a useful force, but there's no explanation as to how the Fallen became aware of it. Just that they are. (Are you noticing a trend, we are constantly just told things are just the way they are, with no actual evidence or reason to support it).

I think a much more interesting plot direction would have been to make the nano-technology artificially intelligent such that SIVA itself was trying to escape the bunker it was sealed in. Perhaps the SIVA finally found a way through the bunker (it can supposedly meld/penetrate/create some sort of change in whatever it touches, right)? In this way, SIVA would have slowly crept into the Plaguelands, and then perhaps serendipitously, a Fallen may have been "infected" by SIVA. A much more organic (perhaps, gruesome) evolution of the Fallen into Splicers would have taken place.

This "leaking out" of SIVA would also have given more of an explanation as to how the Guardians are currently unaware of its presence. It is absolutely implausible that Guardians who have been patrolling the Cosmodrome for two years would NOT have noticed that something was growing and invading The Divide or The Rocket Yards or The Wall. No sense can be made of this, unless you are trying to argue that every single last guardian was on the Dreadnaught for so long that no one noticed this technological invasion.

My next gripe with this is the complete and utter lack of communication between Lord Saladin and The Vanguard. Why on Earth would The Vanguard not be informed of SIVA? What motivation does Lord Saladin actually have for expunging it from the records? Grief? Bullshit. If your friends all die from an out of control nano-technology, you tell someone about the damn technology so none of their friends die. Am I really to believe that someone as noble as Lord Saladin, an Iron Lord, whose sole purpose is to be a "guardian", a protector, wouldn't tell the truth? That he would just omit some vital information for possibly centuries?

Lastly, did we really just seal SIVA back up? How moronic is this? We know it didn't work once, why on earth would we do it twice? Why not have a mission where maybe things don't go successfully (and that's the point). After we fight the Guardian Reapers (another Mass Effect reference), and we set off a detonation sequence, there should be a cut scene that's already showing the SIVA crawling out as a statement as to the futility of taking such a course of action. It should prove that the jarhead mentality that Guardians who just shoot everything cannot defeat everything. SIVA lives on, as it has for hundreds of years. Then maybe you write some more story (five missions, that's it?) to help us actually scientifically combat SIVA (we used to have tons of scientists right, that's how all this began in the Golden Age?).

Honestly, I'm ready to give it up. The only satisfying reason to play is to play with all of you, which truly is satisfying. Anyone in this forum could have written a better story arc and come up with more creative plot devices than Bungie did with this one. As you can tell, I'm pretty disappointed.

So, what say ye? I didn't write this not to hear your thoughts, so let's hear them.

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I'm pretty sure Saladin's reasoning is that of anyone knew SIVA was even possible, there'd be researches to replicate its intended purpose, which in turn would probably fail as catastrophically as the original. Dunno why he thinks withholding information is actually more helpful than warnings, but he is a Titan, after all.

Somewhat related to that, I think he honestly thought SIVA was destroyed in the Jolder-locking-it-up cutscene. You can tell she deliberately blows it all up as soon as the door is closed. Which is a very good discussion to bring up, because theoretically, it's EXACTLY what we have done as well, give or take the hacking we do prior to going all the way down there. Why do we expect the result to succeed where they have failed?

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I'm pretty sure Saladin's reasoning is that of anyone knew SIVA was even possible, there'd be researches to replicate its intended purpose, which in turn would probably fail as catastrophically as the original. Dunno why he thinks withholding information is actually more helpful than warnings, but he is a Titan, after all.

And to be fair, there is a lot of talk and implying that Warlocks are basically just mad scientists themselves (the Ghost's joke in RoI not withstanding) in the Grimoire and flavor text.

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I'm pretty sure Saladin's reasoning is that of anyone knew SIVA was even possible, there'd be researches to replicate its intended purpose, which in turn would probably fail as catastrophically as the original. Dunno why he thinks withholding information is actually more helpful than warnings, but he is a Titan, after all.

Yep, that's what I got from it, too. It makes perfect sense as a motivation, regardless of whether you think it's the right call.

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I had a lot of the same feelings. I finally came back to Destiny, from what a 7 months hiatus? And I was a bit sad that this is the story we got. It was intense but logically lacking (yes I know it's a game but it helps immerse you). I am still enjoying the new things as Destiny is itself great gameplay, but I have a feeling I will get back into that rut. Only time will tell.

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I had a lot of the same feelings. I finally came back to Destiny, from what a 7 months hiatus? And I was a bit sad that this is the story we got.

I've been absent from Destiny for about as long, and I haven't picked up Rise of Iron yet. Partly because I don't have a stable internet connection, partly because I just can't bring myself to care. I was hoping the reviews of RoI would be good enough to convince me to pick it up at some point within a month or, but so far I haven't seen a single thing that makes me want to pick up. It seems more in line with The Dark Below than anything else. I think I'm good. And that is sad. I want to love Destiny again, but they're not making it easy for me to do so.

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I had a lot of the same feelings. I finally came back to Destiny, from what a 7 months hiatus? And I was a bit sad that this is the story we got.

I've been absent from Destiny for about as long, and I haven't picked up Rise of Iron yet. Partly because I don't have a stable internet connection, partly because I just can't bring myself to care. I was hoping the reviews of RoI would be good enough to convince me to pick it up at some point within a month or, but so far I haven't seen a single thing that makes me want to pick up. It seems more in line with The Dark Below than anything else. I think I'm good. And that is sad. I want to love Destiny again, but they're not making it easy for me to do so.

RoI feels like TTK once you've finished the TTK main questline. That's about where RoI starts. The main quest is less interesting and less urgent, but the opening up of the plaguelands and the new things that come with that are pretty fun.

The mission where you craft your gjallerhorn is GREAT.

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I completely forgot. I would actually like to do it sometime!

And I'm just being a downer right now. We all know I'll end up with Rise of Iron at some point--I won't be able to help myself. But my internet situation makes it pretty easy to ignore for the moment.

And, honestly, to some extent, moving to PS4 and getting rid of my Xbox One sort of killed my interest in Destiny. Starting completely over is nearly torture. I no longer have my Fatebringer or Found Verdict, no Sleeper Simulant or Black Spindle, no Y1 Moments of Triump emblem, etc. It's all silly, but that stuff all adds up and makes it almost feel like I'm not playing the same game. None of my history is there, and it's depressing.

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The storytelling was much improved, but I'll agree, the story that was told could have been better. Personally I feel it was cut down in order to fit various "space-time" requirements.

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I feel like time was disregarded entirely. How is it winter? Why not have an introduction that recaps what was accomplished in the Taken King and sets up some period in which summer ends and winter began? Give me some explanation as to how the Cosmodrome transformed so much for the first two missions. Or give me some explanation that the Earth is actually largely inhabitable but the Traveler keeps the temperatures warm enough that the City isn't buried in snow, but the Plaguelands right next door are (granted this wouldn't account for Widow's Court or Memento though). Just give me something.

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I feel like time was disregarded entirely. How is it winter? Why not have an introduction that recaps what was accomplished in the Taken King and sets up some period in which summer ends and winter began? Give me some explanation as to how the Cosmodrome transformed so much for the first two missions. Or give me some explanation that the Earth is actually largely inhabitable but the Traveler keeps the temperatures warm enough that the City isn't buried in snow, but the Plaguelands right next door are (granted this wouldn't account for Widow's Court or Memento though). Just give me something.

All of these points, plus your original post, to me look like evidence of something I've suspected; RoI is the work of a far smaller team than some of us might expect. There's no doubt that Bungie invested moderately in a few areas. New cutscenes, new VO, plus a decent chunk of output from the art team (new locations, enemy skins, gear), plus whatever the raid team has cooked up. But in terms of new playable content, this is not a large expansion. There's a new patrol space, but there's nothing new to do in that patrol space, aside from the Archon's Forge which as far as I'm concerned is just slapped together with very little development or iteration. The majority of the story missions lack the clever encounter design or set piece moments that made the TTK missions feel like such a step up in quality from year 1 Destiny.

I'm tempted to say that RoI, like every Destiny release aside from TTK, suffers from "Over-promise, under-deliver" syndrome. To be clear, I don't want to come across as overly down on the expansion. It's fine. I'm enjoying myself. There is fun stuff in it. I just don't think RoI warrants they months of hype and build-up that Bungie (and let's be honest, Sony) have been putting out there. It isn't a major release.

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I suspect that ROI is basically just what the Live team was able to put together. Bungie has basically switched everyone over to "destiny 2" but in the meantime they need to keep paying the bills to run the servers and keep giving people some content to avoid a complete loss of playerbase. My guess is that while "destiny 2" will be pretty much a new game, it will also just be something new applied on top of the current destiny game. A significant move forward, but also an evolutionary one just like every other expansion. Just like how there isn't a WOW 2, just new expansions.

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That would be a really cool explanation if the only places on Earth we were able to visit were The City & Old Russia. It would be a convenient way to explain why we never visit any other parts of the planet.

Oh well.

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That would be a really cool explanation if the only places on Earth we were able to visit were The City & Old Russia. It would be a convenient way to explain why we never visit any other parts of the planet.

Oh well.

This hurts the game the most story wise in my opinion. The fact that all this stuff takes place in this tiny little areas of this huge planet, make the world feel very 'small'. Instead of an epic quest to find the SIVA chamber, leading us across the the expanse of the plagueands we just drive for about a minute.

Which also makes me wonder how nobody knew what was basically down the block.

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Apparently our light-fried brains are too absorbed with dancing on Cayde's table to notice.

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The story in Destiny the game (separate from the grimoire) is garbage. It's not even underwhelming; it's downright nonexistent.

The most basic way to tell a story is as a series of events: First this happened. Then this happened. And then this. The end.

Vanilla Destiny didn't even do that much. Instead if was: First you need to do this. Now you need to do this other, totally unrelated thing. Okay now a thing loosely related to that first one. Now another unrelated thing!

CE got sequencing down, but that's it. Do this, now this, now this. You're done.

The next step in storytelling after sequencing is motivation. Not just what happened but why. Here is, in my opinion, the greatest failure of Destiny's storytelling. Someone at Bungie thinks that expressly not telling us what's going on is superior to telling us what the other characters *think* is going on. They're wrong. "I'm a ghost, and you're a guardian. I'll [never] explain later." "I could tell you the stories we used to scare children with, [but I won't]" "I don't have time to explain why I don't have time to explain." and the greatest failure is that, in the face of all of this confusion, obfuscation, and intentional not-explanations of events, the guardian is FINE WITH IT ALL. I declare shenanigans right there. At no point in the story of Destiny have I ever believed that the guardian buys in to the vanguard, it's leaders, the Traveler, or any of this other bullshit. I do not know why I keep doing what these people tell me. I don't care about any of them, and I'm immortal. Why wouldn't I just leave and force them to convince me?

The silent protagonist is an awful choice for storytelling, and Destiny is a prime example of why that is.

Let's move on. Once you have motivation and events, then you need obstacles. It's all fine and dandy if you want to go from point A to point B, but that's not *interesting*. Rather, you need something in the way of your goals which needs to be overcome.

In all FPS games you can argue that the guys you're shooting at are in the way of your goals. Sure, in the very immediate sense, that is true. But in a more broad sense, there really are no obstacles for the guardians.

Part of it is simply the setup: Guardians are immortal so there's nothing that really needs to concern them too much when it comes to their own personal well being. Part of it is the depictions of things within the game: We hear about how this sword drinks light, but we literally never see it. They tell us how "hundreds of guardians died for good" when Crota attacked, but - again - we never see any evidence of that. Furthermore, because the people telling us this have literally no credibility, we have no reason to believe anything they say. Still a third part of this problem is that missions in destiny are almost always so vague that we only know our immediate breadcrumb directions and have no clue what the overarching goals are. "There's no time, Guardian. Shut that thing down NOW!" Why? What is it? For that matter, who are you and why should i do what you say? What does it matter if I don't shut that down, it's not like it can kill me.

This is as complicated as HoW and TTK ever get, though TTK is cinematic in its storytelling where HoW was clunky and awkward.

RoI is the *first* time in Destiny that there's a semi-plausible obstacle in our path (in the form of the fallen splicers, who are semi-stopping us from stopping SIVA), and you can see from the writing how difficult this was for the designers to even explain. One character (Lord Salad) says stoping SIVA is the most important thing (even though it's not important enough to tell the Vanguard about, apparently). Another (Something-4) thinks we should go after the Fallen Splicers. And the writers do absolutely nothing to help us decide who is right. Ultimately we have no agency (or even false sense of agency) and are forced to go after SIVA first and the fallen second, but the entire time is spent with the two characters who can talk arguing that each one is more right than the other without offering any reasons WHY.

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The grimoire muddies things, because it shows us that a great deal of thought and planning has gone into everything we've seen in game. But you know what? None of that SHOWS in the game. I, reading the grimoire, am distinctly not my character in the game, and I still wonder why game-me gives two shits about any of the stuff he's told to do. I mean it when I say I would have peaced the fuck out a long time ago. Gone looking for my family maybe, or seen my old house. Maybe just taken my spaceship and left the system. The vanguard would have had to come and find me and convince me to come back.

There is nothing in the storytelling of this game to make us care about any of it. RoI is, I think, better than HoW, and I like that there's more going on gameplay wise (it does feel to me like Bungie has found the sweet spot when it comes to mission design and quest scope and implementation), but for all the people in the game telling me that things are important, I wish they'd start telling me why things are important already.

Spoilers follow.

When the ghost says "DNA analysis shows they're human... how is that possible?!" that sums up the writing of Destiny in a nutshell. This thing is happening and NO ONE WILL EVER KNOW WHY. That's a recipe for not caring about the thing that's happening.

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Did you ever see Jurassic Park 3? There's a moment where they see a dinosaur and one of the guys is like "I don't remember seeing that on Ingen's list" and the other guy says "that's because it wasn't on Ingen's list... what was Ingen up to?!" and then they never explore it or try to explain it or mention anything about it ever again.

Yeah. Destiny reminds me of that quite a bit :)

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Did you ever see Jurassic Park 3? There's a moment where they see a dinosaur and one of the guys is like "I don't remember seeing that on Ingen's list" and the other guy says "that's because it wasn't on Ingen's list... what was Ingen up to?!" and then they never explore it or try to explain it or mention anything about it ever again.

Yeah. Destiny reminds me of that quite a bit :)

I actually haven't seen that movie, but I definitely hate it when threads like that are just dropped in movies.

I've been reading the Game of Thrones books and something that strikes me as profoundly brilliant about them is that you know, almost as soon as you meet a character, what they want. How they scheme and work their plans to achieve their goals is another thing entirely, but you know, absolutely, why everyone is doing what they're doing.

Another similar vein of writing is in the film, The Way of the Gun. It's full of red herrings, but at the time that each new plan is devised, it makes sense for the characters involved, and the entire film is basically about how those plans go awry and what unfolds as a result. It's truly brilliant.

And there's Obfuscation Theatre, aka Destiny, where you try to make up for your lack of story by pretending there is one and then spending most of your time telling everyone how great it is but that they can't see it yet. Reminds me of a certain candidate for president. You're gonna love my story! It's yuuuge! We've got top men working on it, and I've seen it, folks. I have. I've seen it and I tell you it's great. Just great. Absolutely terrific. I can't show it to you now, oh no, but trust me folks, it's, well, it may be one of the top 5 or, I don't know, top 3 stories in the world. It's a ten year plan and we definitely have it and it's great. #MakeDestinyGreatAgain.

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And there's Obfuscation Theatre, aka Destiny, where you try to make up for your lack of story by pretending there is one and then spending most of your time telling everyone how great it is but that they can't see it yet.

Isn't that one of the fundamentals of writing? Even if you don't tell the audience the answer to something, you absolutely should HAVE an answer. It increasingly seems like Destiny doesn't. I'm eager to see where Destiny 2 goes, because so far all the expansions have just seemed like side quests in an RPG.

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And there's Obfuscation Theatre, aka Destiny, where you try to make up for your lack of story by pretending there is one and then spending most of your time telling everyone how great it is but that they can't see it yet.

Isn't that one of the fundamentals of writing? Even if you don't tell the audience the answer to something, you absolutely should HAVE an answer. It increasingly seems like Destiny doesn't. I'm eager to see where Destiny 2 goes, because so far all the expansions have just seemed like side quests in an RPG.

My writing mentor used to say, "The nature of literature is ambiguity," and I think that's what you mean when you say obfuscation is a one of the fundamentals of writing. I wouldn't call it obfuscation as much as letting readers connect the dots (readers enjoy doing that).

I get the feeling that Kahzgul is mainly talking about how Bungie talks about the story, although there is some of this in-game ("There are stories I could tell you.") And I guess the Grimoire does some overpromising. See how great this story is that happened way back when? A present-tense story just as good is coming any time now!

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My writing mentor used to say, "The nature of literature is ambiguity," and I think that's what you mean when you say obfuscation is a one of the fundamentals of writing. I wouldn't call it obfuscation as much as letting readers connect the dots (readers enjoy doing that).

I get the feeling that Kahzgul is mainly talking about how Bungie talks about the story, although there is some of this in-game ("There are stories I could tell you.") And I guess the Grimoire does some overpromising. See how great this story is that happened way back when? A present-tense story just as good is coming any time now!

But that's severely disappointing. At this point, we would have been better off playing in Destiny's world of the past where things were going down back in the day as described in the Grimoire. It would have been horribly tragic, and we may have been playing in a game with quite the losing battle. Could you imagine how awesome it would have been to show us beating up on some of these aliens and doing cool things to save the world, only to totally succeed...until the next expansion, where our victory was literally nothing but a tiny glimmer of hope that completely failed?

Consequences, failures, actual things at stake, and what appears to be no way out. All leading to a potential change where we finally overcome. But no, that would require actual writing ability and story planning. We didn't get that. We've been playing two years and haven't gotten that in the "present" story. The story thus far is "THERE IS A BAD THING OVER THERE, GO KILL IT NOW" multiple times, and we do that. Oh no, a God appeared at Saturn. Some God, he's dead. So's his son. That was tough.

I don't think Kahzgul is mainly talking about how Bungie talks about the story at all. I think that's a part of it, but I think it's about how the universe talks about the story as well when there's nothing there. It's smoke and mirrors. There's a taste of a little of something there since Taken King, and Rise of Iron sorta kinda adds a bit to that as far as what this means for the Fallen going forward (and maybe a bit of Rasputin, assuming his motivations haven't changed since we've been saving his ass left and right), but that's about it.

The nature of literature IS ambiguity. With Destiny, it's not a matter of literature or ambiguity or connecting dots. They don't have anything except for a brilliant backstory, no matter how hard they want to pretend that they do. Even Rise of Iron is mostly backstory and letting us know about the past. Only a fraction of this expansion gives us a present story with potential future consequences.

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My writing mentor used to say, "The nature of literature is ambiguity," and I think that's what you mean when you say obfuscation is a one of the fundamentals of writing.

I am not sure I agree. Good writing is clear. The reader needs to have a clear understanding of the world, the character, what they want, etc. They can have the wrong impression (such as a twist in a murder mystery), and you can have a little mystery, but the theme and characters should be crystal clear and not ambiguous.

If you google JJ Abrams Mystery Box, you can have a look at the principle which does NOT work. It is the reason so many of his films are pleasing and fun in the moment, but do not succeed in a lasting sense. Because these clear elements are not built up, and you are rushed from scene to scene with only the mystery to sustain you. Meanwhile, the characters and their choices make no fucking sense, so you don't invest emotionally.

I mean, didn't you feel way worse when Han was frozen than when he died? Why do you think that is?

A story is much more than what happens. Knowing why is what makes it a story.

P.S. Destiny has never had a really solid antagonist. We need a rogue guardian in the future.

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I mean, didn't you feel way worse when Han was frozen than when he died? Why do you think that is?

Because I was younger, and the universe mattered more to me.

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I mean, didn't you feel way worse when Han was frozen than when he died? Why do you think that is?

Because I was younger, and the universe mattered more to me.

But I thought when people were younger, they were the center of the universe?

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I mean, didn't you feel way worse when Han was frozen than when he died? Why do you think that is?

Because I was younger, and the universe mattered more to me.

But I thought when people were younger, they were the center of the universe?

Younger is a relative term in this case.

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My writing mentor used to say, "The nature of literature is ambiguity," and I think that's what you mean when you say obfuscation is a one of the fundamentals of writing.

I am not sure I agree. Good writing is clear. The reader needs to have a clear understanding of the world, the character, what they want, etc. They can have the wrong impression (such as a twist in a murder mystery), and you can have a little mystery, but the theme and characters should be crystal clear and not ambiguous.

Some of the best writing I've ever read was unclear. But I think the problem here is that Destiny is nothing close to actual literature, and the ambiguity being presented isn't being done in a way like you're describing where there's enough of a story established for the ambiguity and mystery to build around or into a more solid narrative.

If you google JJ Abrams Mystery Box, you can have a look at the principle which does NOT work. It is the reason so many of his films are pleasing and fun in the moment, but do not succeed in a lasting sense. Because these clear elements are not built up, and you are rushed from scene to scene with only the mystery to sustain you. Meanwhile, the characters and their choices make no fucking sense.

A story is much more that what happens. Knowing why is what makes it a story.

Abrams is so hit and miss for me. I've never seen this Mystery Box before, but your post alone mirrors a ton of my thoughts about him and his movies. I still love me some Cloverfield and Super 8, though. And I thoroughly enjoyed Star Wars Episode VII and am so glad he's off of VIII. Also, his Star Trek movies are awesome action movies but really bad Star Trek movies. I know I'm off on an Abrams tangent now, but hey.

Also, when you use the word "clear" a bunch, I assume you're sort of referring to logic, right? Like, coherence. Things can't just be happening because they're happening. There needs to be a why, and the why generally needs to make sense or been built up to and earned. Just making sure I'm reading you right.

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Also, when you use the word "clear" a bunch, I assume you're sort of referring to logic, right? Like, coherence. Things can't just be happening because they're happening. There needs to be a why, and the why generally needs to make sense or been built up to and earned. Just making sure I'm reading you right.

No not at all. Clarity has nothing to do with logic. It has nothing to do with the audience or reader knowing everything. It has to do with emotional continuity.

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Also, when you use the word "clear" a bunch, I assume you're sort of referring to logic, right? Like, coherence. Things can't just be happening because they're happening. There needs to be a why, and the why generally needs to make sense or been built up to and earned. Just making sure I'm reading you right.

No not at all. Clarity has nothing to do with logic. It has nothing to do with the audience or reader knowing everything. It has to do with emotional continuity.

Ah, okay. Either way, they don't have to be separate (which I'm sure you know). The audience and reader doesn't have to know everything (or even close to everything) for something to feel earned, valid, or to make sense within a universe that clarity has established. Clarity can enhance all of that, and sometimes logic itself based upon the "rules" of a particular universe establish the clarity of the world and characters and their actions.

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Also, when you use the word "clear" a bunch, I assume you're sort of referring to logic, right? Like, coherence. Things can't just be happening because they're happening. There needs to be a why, and the why generally needs to make sense or been built up to and earned. Just making sure I'm reading you right.

No not at all. Clarity has nothing to do with logic. It has nothing to do with the audience or reader knowing everything. It has to do with emotional continuity.

Ah, okay. Either way, they don't have to be separate (which I'm sure you know). The audience and reader doesn't have to know everything (or even close to everything) for something to feel earned, valid, or to make sense within a universe that clarity has established. Clarity can enhance all of that, and sometimes logic itself based upon the "rules" of a particular universe establish the clarity of the world and characters and their actions.

I agree and this has nothing to do with what my teacher was saying. She wasn't saying that the story doesn't have to make sense (In fact, fiction has to make more sense than real life.) She was saying that (great) literature leaves room for many interpretations. Hollywood types might characterize a story that lacks nuance or ambiguity as being too "on the nose." That is not art. That is propaganda.

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Also, when you use the word "clear" a bunch, I assume you're sort of referring to logic, right? Like, coherence. Things can't just be happening because they're happening. There needs to be a why, and the why generally needs to make sense or been built up to and earned. Just making sure I'm reading you right.

No not at all. Clarity has nothing to do with logic. It has nothing to do with the audience or reader knowing everything. It has to do with emotional continuity.

Ah, okay. Either way, they don't have to be separate (which I'm sure you know). The audience and reader doesn't have to know everything (or even close to everything) for something to feel earned, valid, or to make sense within a universe that clarity has established. Clarity can enhance all of that, and sometimes logic itself based upon the "rules" of a particular universe establish the clarity of the world and characters and their actions.

I agree and this has nothing to do with what my teacher was saying. She wasn't saying that the story doesn't have to make sense (In fact, fiction has to make more sense than real life.) She was saying that (great) literature leaves room for many interpretations. Hollywood types might characterize a story that lacks nuance or ambiguity as being too "on the nose." That is not art. That is propaganda.

I am generally inclined to disagree here too. Art is about expressing ideas. The more clearly you express that idea the better. That leaves less room for interpretations. Ambiguity is often a cop out. The best stuff doesn't have people talking about what the thing is actually saying, but whether what it's saying is something they agree with.

There is a difference between being 'on the nose', and not being ambiguous. The former typically refers to something that is overexplained.

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I am generally inclined to disagree here too. Art is about expressing ideas. The more clearly you express that idea the better. That leaves less room for interpretations. Ambiguity is often a cop out. The best stuff doesn't have people talking about what the thing is actually saying, but whether what it's saying is something they agree with.

I categorically and emphatically disagree with your last sentence. I would go so far as to say "you're wrong". Objectively wrong.

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I am generally inclined to disagree here too. Art is about expressing ideas. The more clearly you express that idea the better. That leaves less room for interpretations. Ambiguity is often a cop out. The best stuff doesn't have people talking about what the thing is actually saying, but whether what it's saying is something they agree with.

I categorically and emphatically disagree with your last sentence. I would go so far as to say "you're wrong". Objectively wrong.

So you liked the ending to M∞ then?

:-p

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I am generally inclined to disagree here too. Art is about expressing ideas. The more clearly you express that idea the better. That leaves less room for interpretations. Ambiguity is often a cop out. The best stuff doesn't have people talking about what the thing is actually saying, but whether what it's saying is something they agree with.

I categorically and emphatically disagree with your last sentence. I would go so far as to say "you're wrong". Objectively wrong.

So you liked the ending to M∞ then?

:-p

It had an ending?

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I am generally inclined to disagree here too. Art is about expressing ideas. The more clearly you express that idea the better. That leaves less room for interpretations. Ambiguity is often a cop out. The best stuff doesn't have people talking about what the thing is actually saying, but whether what it's saying is something they agree with.

I categorically and emphatically disagree with your last sentence. I would go so far as to say "you're wrong". Objectively wrong.

So you liked the ending to M∞ then?

:-p

It had an ending?

Something about becoming Destiny…

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Also, when you use the word "clear" a bunch, I assume you're sort of referring to logic, right? Like, coherence. Things can't just be happening because they're happening. There needs to be a why, and the why generally needs to make sense or been built up to and earned. Just making sure I'm reading you right.

No not at all. Clarity has nothing to do with logic. It has nothing to do with the audience or reader knowing everything. It has to do with emotional continuity.

Ah, okay. Either way, they don't have to be separate (which I'm sure you know). The audience and reader doesn't have to know everything (or even close to everything) for something to feel earned, valid, or to make sense within a universe that clarity has established. Clarity can enhance all of that, and sometimes logic itself based upon the "rules" of a particular universe establish the clarity of the world and characters and their actions.

I agree and this has nothing to do with what my teacher was saying. She wasn't saying that the story doesn't have to make sense (In fact, fiction has to make more sense than real life.) She was saying that (great) literature leaves room for many interpretations. Hollywood types might characterize a story that lacks nuance or ambiguity as being too "on the nose." That is not art. That is propaganda.

I think there is an important difference between ambiguity and lack of information. Inception is a great example of a movie with an ambiguous ending, but one that provides the viewer with enough information to come up with their own interpretations or explainations for what they are seeing. The Matrix is in a similar boat. Even if the precise nature of all the events is a bit unclear, there is enough material there to give the story weight, and give the viewer thoughts and questions to "chew on" over time. I think that Destiny's story (without the grimoire) is too sparse to pull this off. The ambiguity isn't the problem. It's that we aren't given enough information to take us beyond the most superficial questions.

*edit*

I should add that I think Bungie's storytelling is getting better in this regard. RoI has left me with more to think about than anything in year 1 or 2, which is great.

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Also, when you use the word "clear" a bunch, I assume you're sort of referring to logic, right? Like, coherence. Things can't just be happening because they're happening. There needs to be a why, and the why generally needs to make sense or been built up to and earned. Just making sure I'm reading you right.

No not at all. Clarity has nothing to do with logic. It has nothing to do with the audience or reader knowing everything. It has to do with emotional continuity.

Ah, okay. Either way, they don't have to be separate (which I'm sure you know). The audience and reader doesn't have to know everything (or even close to everything) for something to feel earned, valid, or to make sense within a universe that clarity has established. Clarity can enhance all of that, and sometimes logic itself based upon the "rules" of a particular universe establish the clarity of the world and characters and their actions.

I agree and this has nothing to do with what my teacher was saying. She wasn't saying that the story doesn't have to make sense (In fact, fiction has to make more sense than real life.) She was saying that (great) literature leaves room for many interpretations. Hollywood types might characterize a story that lacks nuance or ambiguity as being too "on the nose." That is not art. That is propaganda.

I think there is an important difference between ambiguity and lack of information. Inception is a great example of a movie with an ambiguous ending, but one that provides the viewer with enough information to come up with their own interpretations or explainations for what they are seeing. The Matrix is in a similar boat. Even if the precise nature of all the events is a bit unclear, there is enough material there to give the story weight, and give the viewer thoughts and questions to "chew on" over time. I think that Destiny's story (without the grimoire) is too sparse to pull this off. The ambiguity isn't the problem. It's that we aren't given enough information to take us beyond the most superficial questions.

But even Inception and the Matrix are not 'ambiguous' in their themes. You know what the characters want and how the world works at all times, and what ideas the filmmakers are putting forth. We don't see what happens to the top because it doesn't have anything to do with the theme or the real story at all, which is itself very clear. Is Cobb dreaming or is he not? It doesn't matter, which is why we don't get the answer.

Inception is the story of Ariadne performing inception on Cobb so he can get over his wife. An inception within an inception. But even if you don't pick up on that, you still understand the nature of the film's stance on letting go.

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Yep. Oftentimes it's not so much that there's "enough information that you still have things to think about," but rather that the ambiguity (and reasons for it) is itself a major point in the story. Ambiguity is often surrounded by a lot more detail than clear-cut things within a story.

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I think there is an important difference between ambiguity and lack of information. Inception is a great example of a movie with an ambiguous ending, but one that provides the viewer with enough information to come up with their own interpretations or explainations for what they are seeing. The Matrix is in a similar boat. Even if the precise nature of all the events is a bit unclear, there is enough material there to give the story weight, and give the viewer thoughts and questions to "chew on" over time. I think that Destiny's story (without the grimoire) is too sparse to pull this off. The ambiguity isn't the problem. It's that we aren't given enough information to take us beyond the most superficial questions.

But even Inception and the Matrix are not 'ambiguous' in their themes. You know what the characters want and how the world works at all times, and what ideas the filmmakers are putting forth. We don't see what happens to the top because it doesn't have anything to do with the theme or the real story at all, which is itself very clear. Is Cobb dreaming or is he not? It doesn't matter, which is why we don't get the answer.

Inception is the story of Ariadne performing inception on Cobb so he can get over his wife. An inception within an inception. But even if you don't pick up on that, you still understand the nature of the film's stance on letting go.

Good point. That's an interesting thing to think about: what is the "theme" of Destiny?
Does it really have one? Does it even need one? I think it depends on the kind of experience Bungie wants to deliver.

I am 100% ok with games that lack a powerful or compelling story. I don't need every game I play to be The Last of Us. I know lots of people here are huge fans of the Halo story, but I'm not one of them. I always thought it was stereotypical, derivative sci-fi... but it worked FANTASTICALLY well within the context of the game. As the player, I always had a clear idea of where I was and what I was doing, why my goals were important, the ramifications if I failed, etc. So while I don't consider it a great story, I do think it is a wonderful example of well executed videogame storytelling (if that makes any sense).

A few people in this thread have mentioned the issue of "suspension of disbelief", and I think that is where I clash with Destiny's story. I don't need my videogame's story to be good, but I need it to make sense within its own world. Nothing pulls me out of the game faster than those moments where the characters in front of me say or do something that makes me think "wait, that doesn't make any sense!" One of the reasons I have a difficult time connecting with Destiny's universe even today is there are fundamental concepts that have never been addressed or explained. We spend a great deal of our time in Vanilla Destiny focused on saving the Traveler, but I don't know enough about what the Traveler is to care. Forget about "why" the Traveler helps us, we're never even told "how" it helps us. This is another example of what I was talking about in my post from a couple days ago:

"I think that in the past, fantasy was worked into Destiny as a way to justify or explain stuff that the player wouldn't otherwise understand. Things like "darkness zones" or "the light" or "the oversoul". We just rationalize that stuff by telling ourselves "oh yeah, this is a fantasy game" or "space-magic!"."

Bungie's storytelling in year 1 was so vague, that I often get confused when they reference certain events later on simply because they reference them in ways that don't fit my understanding of what happened. For example, Ghost's very first line in the cinematic intro to TTK is "I was born the moment the Traveler died..." I heard that line and my first that was "wait... the Traveler is dead?". I thought we saved the traveler in year 1, when we freed the shard from the Hive on the moon. Something about "the Traveler can now begin to heal". Then there's the Undying Mind strike, where Ghost Ikora mentions something about "restoring the birthplace of the Vex", and my reaction was "... the Black Garden is the birth place of the vex?". If that's the case, then why did destroying the Black Garden suddenly cause light to begin to return to the Traveler, and how is THAT possible if the Traveler is actually dead... and so on.

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Bungie's storytelling in year 1 was so vague, that I often get confused when they reference certain events later on simply because they reference them in ways that don't fit my understanding of what happened. For example, Ghost's very first line in the cinematic intro to TTK is "I was born the moment the Traveler died..." I heard that line and my first that was "wait... the Traveler is dead?". I thought we saved the traveler in year 1, when we freed the shard from the Hive on the moon. Something about "the Traveler can now begin to heal". Then there's the Undying Mind strike, where Ghost Ikora mentions something about "restoring the birthplace of the Vex", and my reaction was "... the Black Garden is the birth place of the vex?". If that's the case, then why did destroying the Black Garden suddenly cause light to begin to return to the Traveler, and how is THAT possible if the Traveler is actually dead... and so on.

So true.

The statements most of the characters in Destiny make are things that make sense in the moment if the only thing you knew was that one mission, but that make no sense at all given the totality of events. The motivations also don't make sense, and every plot thread so far has been abruptly dropped without a satisfactory conclusion (or even any discernable effect on the world).

Rasputin: We open some array, we establish contact with him, we reconnect him to something on Mars maybe, we salvage all of these warsats that he is somehow dropping for us, we save him from the omnigul and from the fallen shank in his bunker, and he gives us the sleeper simulant to help in the coming battle. But we don't know why we're bothering with him at all. Ghost says we should save him just because there are so few people left alive who appreciate classical music or something, but that's clearly a joke. The fact of the matter is that Rasputin ain't done shit to justify all this work on our part, and we don't know why everyone in the tower is so big on him. In ROI Saladin says Rasputin is basically not our friend, but then nothing we do about SIVA seems to matter to Ol' Raspy anyway, and we're still mindlessly salvaging warsats in the plaguelands like nothing changed.

The Fallen: There's sort of a story here, as the various Fallen factions are vying for, I guess, control over the other Fallen? Initially they're just kind of *there* but not actively doing anything. Then the Wolves kind of unite some Fallen, but we stopped them, and then the Devils are trying to use SIVA to (we guess) impress the other Fallen? But WHY? Who cares if they're united or not because they're all still our enemies and it does not matter one lick to use whether we're killing Wolves or Devils. They're all basically the same. On top of that, because they're always failing to unite, there's no actual change over the course of the game. They're still not united. From a storytelling standpoint this thread goes nowhere.

The Vex: The grimoire tells a great story about the vex and how the scientists freed copies of themselves and that is awesome. But in the actual game the Vex are dumb. "Evil so evil it despises other evil." Yeah right. Dumb so dumb that it can control time but not stop any of our actions. The ability to control time should trump all other technologies, and the Vex's use of that ability is, well, vexing because it basically doesn't do anything. And then when you stop someone like Aetheon, nothing changes. Zero effect. What was the point? Or this black garden thing, where the stranger told us to go, but that thread got dropped and we don't know why, and the whole garden seems to have not done anything anyway and we don't even know why we thought it would do something in the first place because we didn't think anything other than "why are we doing this?"

Cabal: They're on Mars for reasons unknown and then fighting the Hive for reasons unknown. Yup, that pretty much sums them up. "Stay out of sight" leads to immediately fighting them. Awful writing.

The Vanguard: Who are these people and why should we listen to them?

The Speaker: Same question, but singular.

Eris: The Vanguard and Speaker think she's a nutjob, so why don't we? Never explained. We do everything she says, but why? The hive are still everywhere, even though we're technically the kings of the sword realm now or whatever. Of course, throne realms and sword philosophies don't exist in the actual game of Destiny, and just in the grimoire, but damn. There appears to be something going on with Eris and the Awoken Queen, but RoI completely ignores that plot thread for some side quest shenanigans.

All of which brings us to The Hive, which is where we've spent the majority of our time in Destiny. Apparently we have killed their God-son who is the entire reason they were on the Moon, but they're still on the Moon. Then we went into their shadow realm and killed him for good, but they're still on the Moon. Then the God-son's God-Dad showed up at Saturn and started to invade the system, sort of, towards ends unknown, but we defeated him and then went into his throne realm and killed him, too, which - per the grimoire - should make us the kings of the Hive, but instead the Hive DGAF and are still in all the same places they used to be and are just as hostile.

Oh, there was one change. Shaxx calls me "Hivebane" now. Woooooooo.

sigh.

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And there's Obfuscation Theatre, aka Destiny, where you try to make up for your lack of story by pretending there is one and then spending most of your time telling everyone how great it is but that they can't see it yet.

Isn't that one of the fundamentals of writing? Even if you don't tell the audience the answer to something, you absolutely should HAVE an answer. It increasingly seems like Destiny doesn't. I'm eager to see where Destiny 2 goes, because so far all the expansions have just seemed like side quests in an RPG.

Destiny is literally being made up as they go. They do not have a master plan. It's not like they have an outline planned or anything. When Destiny first came out, that was all they knew about their own story. The origin of the heart and of the Exo Stranger were still unknown even to them.

I don't know if this has changed and they have fleshed out a story path for the next 8 years, but what you are seeing is the result of this.

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Two very concrete examples:

1. Ghost Fragment: Vex, Ghost Fragment: Vex 2, and Ghost Fragment: Vex 3 all shipped with Destiny 1.0 and are part of the origin story of the Exo Stranger and the Future War Cult. How did Bungie not know the origin of the Exo Stranger if the game shipped with it?

2. There's a game magazine interview with Jason Jones before the launch of Destiny where he talked about a huge ship in orbit of Saturn that was so big it would be its own destination. (I always forget which magazine it was in, but as a stand in here's an IGN article from Feb 2013 that talks about derelict fleets around Saturn and mile long Tomb Ships.) How can you claim there was no story outline if Oryx's arrival was slyly referenced more than two years before it happened?

Then there's the lesser things like the leaked dlc timeline that came out in Jan of 2015 and showed what would become The Taken King, or the year one weapons named after the Iron Lords, or the "I am noble too, oh Lord of Wolves." caption on The Queen's card whose context was expanded on a year later with Ghost Fragment: Fallen 4, or Rahool rambling about "Oryx dead king" since Destiny was released, or the image of Oryx's dreadnought that I have in my Art of Destiny book, or the one online interview where someone from Bungie mentioning that the Vex storyline was to end with a memorable sacrifice.

Maybe you misheard what someone told you or you misinterpreted it? Maybe the person who told you these things wasn't in a position to know or told you something false to see what you would do with it? Maybe you're taking a partial truth and inflating it to be something it was never meant to be?

Or maybe you made it up.

The problem is, how can anybody tell if you what you claim is anywhere near the truth if you repeatedly refuse to give a source or a quote or a context?

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Two very concrete examples:

1. Ghost Fragment: Vex, Ghost Fragment: Vex 2, and Ghost Fragment: Vex 3 all shipped with Destiny 1.0 and are part of the origin story of the Exo Stranger and the Future War Cult. How did Bungie not know the origin of the Exo Stranger if the game shipped with it?

Everything they wrote when it shipped was the extent to which they had planned anything out.

2. There's a game magazine interview with Jason Jones before the launch of Destiny where he talked about a huge ship in orbit of Saturn that was so big it would be its own destination. (I always forget which magazine it was in, but as a stand in here's an IGN article from Feb 2013 that talks about derelict fleets around Saturn and mile long Tomb Ships.) How can you claim there was no story outline if Oryx's arrival was slyly referenced more than two years before it happened?

Because the dreadnaught (and many other elements) was originally supposed to be in the initial release. You can verify this yourself by reading any of the articles about Destiny's development troubles, plus the reference in the 2013 video to going to Saturn. This was cut and repurposed for TTK.

Maybe you misheard what someone told you or you misinterpreted it? Maybe the person who told you these things wasn't in a position to know or told you something false to see what you would do with it? Maybe you're taking a partial truth and inflating it to be something it was never meant to be?

Or maybe you made it up.

The problem is, how can anybody tell if you what you claim is anywhere near the truth if you repeatedly refuse to give a source or a quote or a context?

Do you not see why I don't want to reveal sources yet? If you want footnotes, read the book when it comes out. You can ignore my posts and not believe them otherwise.

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Two very concrete examples:

1. Ghost Fragment: Vex, Ghost Fragment: Vex 2, and Ghost Fragment: Vex 3 all shipped with Destiny 1.0 and are part of the origin story of the Exo Stranger and the Future War Cult. How did Bungie not know the origin of the Exo Stranger if the game shipped with it?

Everything they wrote when it shipped was the extent to which they had planned anything out.

2. There's a game magazine interview with Jason Jones before the launch of Destiny where he talked about a huge ship in orbit of Saturn that was so big it would be its own destination. (I always forget which magazine it was in, but as a stand in here's an IGN article from Feb 2013 that talks about derelict fleets around Saturn and mile long Tomb Ships.) How can you claim there was no story outline if Oryx's arrival was slyly referenced more than two years before it happened?

Because the dreadnaught (and many other elements) was originally supposed to be in the initial release. You can verify this yourself by reading any of the articles about Destiny's development troubles, plus the reference in the 2013 video to going to Saturn. This was cut and repurposed for TTK.

Maybe you misheard what someone told you or you misinterpreted it? Maybe the person who told you these things wasn't in a position to know or told you something false to see what you would do with it? Maybe you're taking a partial truth and inflating it to be something it was never meant to be?

Or maybe you made it up.

The problem is, how can anybody tell if you what you claim is anywhere near the truth if you repeatedly refuse to give a source or a quote or a context?

Do you not see why I don't want to reveal sources yet? If you want footnotes, read the book when it comes out. You can ignore my posts and not believe them otherwise.

Don't you see how you dropping these nuggets of "truth" whenever it suits your purposes is a dick move? if you are going to fancy yourself an industry insider, or a journalist revealing the true story of Destiny's development, show a little discretion until you can tell a compete narrative that we can fairly judge. Also, you said your book is not about Destiny. So what the hell?

I know you're obsessed with proving yourself absolutely right about everything, and if you weren't that way, i'd cut you slack. It's no surprise to me that you don't see the value of ambiguity in art.

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Two very concrete examples:

1. Ghost Fragment: Vex, Ghost Fragment: Vex 2, and Ghost Fragment: Vex 3 all shipped with Destiny 1.0 and are part of the origin story of the Exo Stranger and the Future War Cult. How did Bungie not know the origin of the Exo Stranger if the game shipped with it?

Everything they wrote when it shipped was the extent to which they had planned anything out.

2. There's a game magazine interview with Jason Jones before the launch of Destiny where he talked about a huge ship in orbit of Saturn that was so big it would be its own destination. (I always forget which magazine it was in, but as a stand in here's an IGN article from Feb 2013 that talks about derelict fleets around Saturn and mile long Tomb Ships.) How can you claim there was no story outline if Oryx's arrival was slyly referenced more than two years before it happened?

Because the dreadnaught (and many other elements) was originally supposed to be in the initial release. You can verify this yourself by reading any of the articles about Destiny's development troubles, plus the reference in the 2013 video to going to Saturn. This was cut and repurposed for TTK.

Maybe you misheard what someone told you or you misinterpreted it? Maybe the person who told you these things wasn't in a position to know or told you something false to see what you would do with it? Maybe you're taking a partial truth and inflating it to be something it was never meant to be?

Or maybe you made it up.

The problem is, how can anybody tell if you what you claim is anywhere near the truth if you repeatedly refuse to give a source or a quote or a context?

Do you not see why I don't want to reveal sources yet? If you want footnotes, read the book when it comes out. You can ignore my posts and not believe them otherwise.

Don't you see how you dropping these nuggets of "truth" whenever it suits your purposes is a dick move? if you are going to fancy yourself an industry insider, or a journalist revealing the true story of Destiny's development, show a little discretion until you can tell a compete narrative that we can fairly judge. Also, you said your book is not about Destiny. So what the hell?

That is why I am posting things here when they are relevant. Like the AI created 30 seconds of fun tidbit and others. I think you are projecting. I want nothing to do with this industry. I'm just a fan of a company. The book will probably have very little to do with Dedtinys development.

As for discretion, rest assured that I am in fact being diligent and positive. This was a pretty common sense fact that was relevant to the discussion at hand. If it annoys you then I have no problem not contributing. The narrative is already pretty well laid out by articles already written by Kotaku and others.

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Don't you see how you dropping these nuggets of "truth" whenever it suits your purposes is a dick move? If you are going to fancy yourself an industry insider, or a journalist revealing the true story of Destiny's development, show a little discretion until you can tell a compete narrative that we can fairly judge. Also, you said your book is not about Destiny. So what the hell?

I know you're obsessed with proving yourself absolutely right about everything, and if you weren't that way, I'd cut you slack. It's no surprise to me that you don't see the value of ambiguity in art.

Thank You Kermit for saying this in a well composed, thought out, way that I couldn't muster

CM - The self righteous, #always right, I know something you don't know, Kindergarten-ish act does not look good on ANYONE. Ever.
Might be time to re-examine your intentions.

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Don't you see how you dropping these nuggets of "truth" whenever it suits your purposes is a dick move? If you are going to fancy yourself an industry insider, or a journalist revealing the true story of Destiny's development, show a little discretion until you can tell a compete narrative that we can fairly judge. Also, you said your book is not about Destiny. So what the hell?

I know you're obsessed with proving yourself absolutely right about everything, and if you weren't that way, I'd cut you slack. It's no surprise to me that you don't see the value of ambiguity in art.

Thank You Kermit for saying this in a well composed, thought out, way that I couldn't muster

CM - The self righteous, always right, I know something you don't know, Kindergarten-ish act does not look good on ANYONE. Ever.
Might be time to re-examine your intentions.

I'm genuinely curious as to why this reaction is the way it is. That was not my intent. This was a story thread, and I posted what was a logical thing to follow. Every time I'm questioned which I guess says something. I didn't feel it was that controversial. Maybe I should have said the source was Kotaku to have avoided this nonsense.

Everything I've shared I did so because I felt like it would contribute to the discussion or be interesting in some way. Please explain to me how to do so without eliciting your reaction.

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Don't you see how you dropping these nuggets of "truth" whenever it suits your purposes is a dick move? If you are going to fancy yourself an industry insider, or a journalist revealing the true story of Destiny's development, show a little discretion until you can tell a compete narrative that we can fairly judge. Also, you said your book is not about Destiny. So what the hell?

I know you're obsessed with proving yourself absolutely right about everything, and if you weren't that way, I'd cut you slack. It's no surprise to me that you don't see the value of ambiguity in art.

Thank You Kermit for saying this in a well composed, thought out, way that I couldn't muster

CM - The self righteous, always right, I know something you don't know, Kindergarten-ish act does not look good on ANYONE. Ever.
Might be time to re-examine your intentions.

I'm genuinely curious as to why this reaction is the way it is. That was not my intent. This was a story thread, and I posted what was a logical thing to follow. Every time I'm questioned which I guess says something. I didn't feel it was that controversial. Maybe I should have said the source was Kotaku to have avoided this nonsense.

So is it something you read in Kotaku or some inside information we'll have to read your book to find out the source of, which is what you said three hours ago.

Everything I've shared I did so because I felt like it would contribute to the discussion or be interesting in some way. Please explain to me how to do so without eliciting your reaction.

You do contribute interesting things to the discussion. You also can come across as arrogant, and have a history of doing so. I won't speak for Pyro but this history does affect my ability to give you the benefit of a doubt. Regardless, I'll continue to try.

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So is it something you read in Kotaku or some inside information we'll have to read your book to find out the source of, which is what you said three hours ago.

It is not going to be in the book, that's the point of mentioning it here when it's appropriate to the discussion. Kotaku says basically the same thing just with more words. It's not new. I wasn't even going to bring up the book, but Ragashingo always makes me. I'm just going to ignore him from now on and save myself the trouble. That's why I said I should have said Kotaku.

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So is it something you read in Kotaku or some inside information we'll have to read your book to find out the source of, which is what you said three hours ago.

It is not going to be in the book ...

Why the shuck and jive about the book then? Why the unnamed "primary source" business? I mean, it's your prerogative, but that part doesn't come across as contributing to the discussion--it seems more like shutting down people who have a different view.

Okay, enough meta-DBO for one night. I'm playing some Destiny.

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So is it something you read in Kotaku or some inside information we'll have to read your book to find out the source of, which is what you said three hours ago.

It is not going to be in the book ...

Why the shuck and jive about the book then? Why the unnamed "primary source" business? I mean, it's your prerogative, but that part doesn't come across as contributing to the discussion--it seems more like shutting down people who have a different view.

Okay, enough meta-DBO for one night. I'm playing some Destiny.

Because every time I make a post you know who makes a post about sources. You were right, I should have ignored it. I should thank you because I learned something today.

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That you're considering lying instead of answering a simple question is why I ask the simple questions. And why you can't be trusted.

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Do you not see why I don't want to reveal sources yet? If you want footnotes, read the book when it comes out. You can ignore my posts and not believe them otherwise.

There's two easy ways to keep people from doubting you:

1. Back up your claims with verifiable facts.
2. Don't make claims you aren't prepared to back up.

It's not like I'm trying to single you out here. Yesterday I asked Beardfade why he thought it had taken the Devils two years to breach the Cosmodrome wall. Today, I'd hoped you'd be able to back up the claim about the Exo Stranger. Tonight I'm going to try and back up my own claims that I made about us now having clear evidence of Rasputin working against humanity.

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Eh, I'd say your problem is that to this day you're still using the Grimoire to try to pretend that Destiny the game has (or has had) something of a story. It sort of does due to Taken King and Rise of Iron, but that's still barely a story at this point.

Also, I ALMOST replied to your question of sources right after you posted it by saying "the game itself" because of the clear and obvious fact that almost all of the expansions have been repurposed-cut-content from launch and that we still haven't managed to have even a fraction of story until Taken King, but I decided not to. But hey, why not now since this portion of the thread is for some reason still a thing? Cody doesn't need inside knowledge or Kotaku to back it up. And no, the Grimoire doesn't count.

As for your Rasputin stuff, it's still all backstory give or take a nifty mention in Rise of Iron. A mention. That's it. Sure, according to the Grimoire, maybe Rasputin was against humanity at one point, but that doesn't mean he will be now. How much have we saved him lately? I guess I'll have to wait and see what's in the Raid to see if that goes anywhere. It's too bad all of this info is still primarily almost all from the Grimoire. This game has what amounts to nearly no story. Dunno why it's still gotta be repeated. Bungie has had basically no story planned out in-game at all beyond launch. Launch got cut and repurposed. Cody's not wrong. Source? Game itself. He may have additional sources, but I have my own eyes and two years of playing a game without much of a story.

So, are you singling out Cody? Yes. Don't pretend you're not. You do you man. Single him out. Whatever. Just because you asked someone else a question (justifiably, because I think the two year thing was incorrect even though I agreed with his overall points) doesn't mean you magically aren't singling out Cody like always. At least own it. :P

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Eh, I'd say your problem is that to this day you're still using the Grimoire to try to pretend that Destiny the game has (or has had) something of a story. It sort of does due to Taken King and Rise of Iron, but that's still barely a story at this point.

Also, I ALMOST replied to your question of sources right after you posted it by saying "the game itself" because of the clear and obvious fact that almost all of the expansions have been repurposed-cut-content from launch and that we still haven't managed to have even a fraction of story until Taken King, but I decided not to. But hey, why not now since this portion of the thread is for some reason still a thing? Cody doesn't need inside knowledge or Kotaku to back it up. And no, the Grimoire doesn't count.

As for your Rasputin stuff, it's still all backstory give or take a nifty mention in Rise of Iron. A mention. That's it. Sure, according to the Grimoire, maybe Rasputin was against humanity at one point, but that doesn't mean he will be now. How much have we saved him lately? I guess I'll have to wait and see what's in the Raid to see if that goes anywhere. It's too bad all of this info is still primarily almost all from the Grimoire. This game has what amounts to nearly no story. Dunno why it's still gotta be repeated. Bungie has had basically no story planned out in-game at all beyond launch. Launch got cut and repurposed. Cody's not wrong. Source? Game itself. He may have additional sources, but I have my own eyes and two years of playing a game without much of a story.

So, are you singling out Cody? Yes. Don't pretend you're not. You do you man. Single him out. Whatever. Just because you asked someone else a question (justifiably, because I think the two year thing was incorrect even though I agreed with his overall points) doesn't mean you magically aren't singling out Cody like always. At least own it. :P

Read Cody's post:

Destiny is literally being made up as they go. They do not have a master plan. It's not like they have an outline planned or anything. When Destiny first came out, that was all they knew about their own story. The origin of the heart and of the Exo Stranger were still unknown even to them.

You can say that what Cody said is obviously true judging by the game itself, but I think that's claiming a lot. Cody states everything as a fact, and then in this instance he doubled down on the factual nature of his statements by basically saying he knows things we don't because of sources. Cody deserves singling out because of the way he expresses himself. He's even more insufferable when he claims unknown sources. Those who disagree with his opinions not only have to deal with someone who can't admit his own subjectivity, but now we have to contend with phantoms who back him up. That's not even mentioning any confirmation bias at play or that these alleged sources aren't necessarily impartial witnesses.

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Oh I know. I totally agree with you in general. My point is that in this particular instance, Cody is spot on regardless of his sources. And that Ragashingo shouldn't fake like he isn't singling him out. Though in this case, Cody didn't need to be questioned. The proof is in the game pudding.

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This is dead simple.

Cody's Claim: Bungie did not know the origins of the Exo Stranger when Destiny first came out.
My Response: But what about this multipart short story written and paid for by Bungie before Destiny first came out that shows Bungie knew of the origin of the Exo Stranger.

All this talk about whether Destiny has an in-game story or not is completely and utterly missing the point.

Good day, sir!

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My Response: But what about this multipart short story written and paid for by Bungie before Destiny first came out that shows Bungie knew of the origin of the Exo Stranger.

Consider that you have no idea of the timeframe the grimoire was written. What if it wasn't in game because it was being worked on after the game shipped to cert? Not saying that's true, but you don't know that's NOT true. You are guessing as much as you think I am.

You know that no matter what I say to defend my assertion you just won't believe me. I'm not even going to try. Believe what you want. Case closed. Not going to waste my time on you any more. I'm sure this will only make you more confident in your own assumptions, but I don't care what you think anymore.

Let's move on.

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My Response: But what about this multipart short story written and paid for by Bungie before Destiny first came out that shows Bungie knew of the origin of the Exo Stranger.

Consider that you have no idea of the timeframe the grimoire was written. What if it wasn't in game because it was being worked on after the game shipped to cert? Not saying that's true, but you don't know that's NOT true. You are guessing as much as you think I am.

Cut the crap, Cody. We know for a fact that work on the Grimoire started before June 13, 2014. We also know that writers who worked on the Grimoire were sought out at least as early as 2012. Besides, you're the one that said that just because something isn't in the game doesn't mean it wasn't developed or explored.

You know that no matter what I say to defend my assertion you just won't believe me. I'm not even going to try. Believe what you want. Case closed. Not going to waste my time on you any more. I'm sure this will only make you more confident in your own assumptions, but I don't care what you think anymore.

If you really want someone to believe you it might help if you gave them even the smallest reason to do so. But no, you're the one claiming secret sources and playing "not saying that's true and you don't know that's not true" word games.

Let's move on.

Yes, before you dig that hole of yours any deeper... :)

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My Response: But what about this multipart short story written and paid for by Bungie before Destiny first came out that shows Bungie knew of the origin of the Exo Stranger.

Consider that you have no idea of the timeframe the grimoire was written. What if it wasn't in game because it was being worked on after the game shipped to cert? Not saying that's true, but you don't know that's NOT true. You are guessing as much as you think I am.

If you're going to say that only what Bungie knew about the story at certification is what counts (and not what was in the Grimoire at launch), then yeah, you might be right about the particulars regarding the Exo Stranger. I think Battuta has mentioned here how very late the Grimoire cards were written.

Also, it's not unusual for game stories to change and morph based on how the game development goes. There are many factors to juggle and flexibility and creativity are a must, which is why I could see how a statement from an ex-Bungie employee alluding to this flexibility could be spun negatively.

As for myself, I wouldn't have been bothered at all if you had qualified your statements. Had you said something like, "based on what we've heard about the development of vanilla Destiny and how late the Grimoire were written, it's pretty clear that to some extent they made up the in-game story as they went along," I'd probably agree with that. That's not what you said, though. You said they are (in the present tense) making things up as they go, and that they did not (in the present tense) have a plan, and that was reflected in what we are currently seeing. In the same post you say you don't know if things have changed, but that didn't stop you from saying how things ARE. As usual, it's your grand broad-brush pronouncements that grate. Acting like you were paraphrasing some authority just made it worse.

[Last post on this thread (I hope!)]

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You said they are (in the present tense) making things up as they go, and that they did not (in the present tense) have a plan, and that was reflected in what we are currently seeing. In the same post you say you don't know if things have changed, but that didn't stop you from saying how things ARE. As usual, it's your grand broad-brush pronouncements that grate.

I understand this, and you are right.

But I mean, technically they ARE making it up as they go along with Destiny 2 aren't they? It's still in development! :-p

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You said they are (in the present tense) making things up as they go, and that they did not (in the present tense) have a plan, and that was reflected in what we are currently seeing. In the same post you say you don't know if things have changed, but that didn't stop you from saying how things ARE. As usual, it's your grand broad-brush pronouncements that grate.

I understand this, and you are right.

But I mean, technically they ARE making it up as they go along with Destiny 2 aren't they? It's still in development! :-p

Sure. We both know it's not really pejorative in that any game development requires a degree of "making it up as you go." In regards to a plan, I think Bungie had a plan for Destiny a long time ago, one that involved eventually going to other solar systems. (Remember the slip up at Staten and Barrett's talk years ago?) I'm sure things have changed--they always do, as Zavala would say.

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And they've done nothing at all in two years to further anything that even looks like it might be a meta plot. We're still guardians on earth trying to defend the last city from some unnamed evil that takes the form of these other races, all of whom we're just endlessly fighting.

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And there's Obfuscation Theatre, aka Destiny, where you try to make up for your lack of story by pretending there is one and then spending most of your time telling everyone how great it is but that they can't see it yet. Reminds me of a certain candidate for president. You're gonna love my story! It's yuuuge! We've got top men working on it, and I've seen it, folks. I have. I've seen it and I tell you it's great. Just great. Absolutely terrific. I can't show it to you now, oh no, but trust me folks, it's, well, it may be one of the top 5 or, I don't know, top 3 stories in the world. It's a ten year plan and we definitely have it and it's great. #MakeDestinyGreatAgain.

Heh. And in the other corner we have Daikatana.

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The next step in storytelling after sequencing is motivation. Not just what happened but why. Here is, in my opinion, the greatest failure of Destiny's storytelling. Someone at Bungie thinks that expressly not telling us what's going on is superior to telling us what the other characters *think* is going on. They're wrong. "I'm a ghost, and you're a guardian. I'll [never] explain later." "I could tell you the stories we used to scare children with, [but I won't]" "I don't have time to explain why I don't have time to explain." and the greatest failure is that, in the face of all of this confusion, obfuscation, and intentional not-explanations of events, the guardian is FINE WITH IT ALL. I declare shenanigans right there. At no point in the story of Destiny have I ever believed that the guardian buys in to the vanguard, it's leaders, the Traveler, or any of this other bullshit. I do not know why I keep doing what these people tell me. I don't care about any of them, and I'm immortal. Why wouldn't I just leave and force them to convince me?

This is an interesting bit here. I don't remember if it was Destiny or some other game I was playing that led me down a similar thought process recently, but essentially:

Suspension of disbelief itself is suspended when the character whose shoes I'm filling no longer speaks for me.

Chief was a decent silent protagonist because, in the context of Halo, he's a soldier ultra conditioned to follow orders and, frankly, his orders make sense and we're all mostly onboard. In Destiny, I lack context for my actions (by design, no less. I've been resurrected and have no idea WTF is going on, IN LORE) and I never get clarity. I want it, my character does not seem to, so I can't ever engage.

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The grimoire muddies things, because it shows us that a great deal of thought and planning has gone into everything we've seen in game. But you know what? None of that SHOWS in the game. I, reading the grimoire, am distinctly not my character in the game, and I still wonder why game-me gives two shits about any of the stuff he's told to do. I mean it when I say I would have peaced the fuck out a long time ago. Gone looking for my family maybe, or seen my old house. Maybe just taken my spaceship and left the system. The vanguard would have had to come and find me and convince me to come back.

You know I never thought about this before but I think you are right.

The problem is that we learn about the world reading grimoire cards rather than have the game experience crafted to reveal it to us through play. The setup is perfect too. You are revived in a strange time with no memory, so you'd naturally have questions and be curious. And so it does feel a bit strange when your character never is inquisitive, nor exhibits any sense of agency.

I am also really curious why the speaker has basically vanished since Vanilla. He hasn't weighed in on any of the massive things that have happened since we stopped the black heart. Maybe he went on vacation? With each story the game highlights a character, then forgets about them in another DLC.

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I am also really curious why the speaker has basically vanished since Vanilla. He hasn't weighed in on any of the massive things that have happened since we stopped the black heart. Maybe he went on vacation? With each story the game highlights a character, then forgets about them in another DLC.

Fan reaction aside, if expense and scheduling factored into replacing Peter Dinklage with Nolan North, then I doubt getting Bill Nighy into recording sessions is going to be any easier.

The difference was that recording new Speaker dialogue probably is, at least in the short term, pretty avoidable. New ghost dialogue was not.

I'd not be surprised if they kill off the speaker to start Destiny 2 at this point. Note that since TTK we've been seeing interplay between various Guardian leaders (heads of the Hunters, Titans and Warlocks respectively, plus the three faction heads, plus Eris, Shaxx and Saladin, and not only have none of them interacted with the Speaker, they haven't even mentioned him.

Getting rid of him would open up a power struggle storyline that the playful banter has perhaps been hinting at. Just a thought.

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I strongly suspect that the new guy in RoI (something-4?) only exists because he was so much cheaper than Nathan Fillion.

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He sounds a LOT like Cayde, does exactly what I expected Saladin to do during the quest and has little to none meaningful backstory.

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He sounds a LOT like Cayde, does exactly what I expected Saladin to do during the quest and has little to none meaningful backstory.

Bungie might be grooming him to be a Cayde replacement. Likely easier to get him than Nathan Fillion for voiced stuff, so perhaps we'll see more of him instead this year...

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Getting rid of him would open up a power struggle storyline that the playful banter has perhaps been hinting at. Just a thought.

How can they get us to care about that though? "The who now is gone? Speaker? Wait wasn't that the guy Xur showed up near sometimes?"

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Getting rid of him would open up a power struggle storyline that the playful banter has perhaps been hinting at. Just a thought.

How can they get us to care about that though? "The who now is gone? Speaker? Wait wasn't that the guy Xur showed up near sometimes?"

I wouldn't care, specifically.

To the extent that the Vanguard acknowledge him as a figurehead, though, it could lead to more open conflict than we've seen so far between existing factions, which could be blamed on the instability caused by the Speaker's absence.

Purely speculation, I've no real inkling that Bungie intends to do that.

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Getting rid of him would open up a power struggle storyline that the playful banter has perhaps been hinting at. Just a thought.

How can they get us to care about that though? "The who now is gone? Speaker? Wait wasn't that the guy Xur showed up near sometimes?"

I wouldn't care, specifically.

To the extent that the Vanguard acknowledge him as a figurehead, though, it could lead to more open conflict than we've seen so far between existing factions, which could be blamed on the instability caused by the Speaker's absence.

Purely speculation, I've no real inkling that Bungie intends to do that.

Destiny 2 is rumored to surround Osiris, and we already know from Brother Vance that Osiris distrusts the speaker. If true, the story is going to fall just as flat because we simply don't know or care much about the speaker and how he operates.

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The grimoire muddies things, because it shows us that a great deal of thought and planning has gone into everything we've seen in game. But you know what? None of that SHOWS in the game. I, reading the grimoire, am distinctly not my character in the game, and I still wonder why game-me gives two shits about any of the stuff he's told to do. I mean it when I say I would have peaced the fuck out a long time ago. Gone looking for my family maybe, or seen my old house. Maybe just taken my spaceship and left the system. The vanguard would have had to come and find me and convince me to come back.

You know I never thought about this before but I think you are right.

The problem is that we learn about the world reading grimoire cards rather than have the game experience crafted to reveal it to us through play. The setup is perfect too. You are revived in a strange time with no memory, so you'd naturally have questions and be curious. And so it does feel a bit strange when your character never is inquisitive, nor exhibits any sense of agency.

I am also really curious why the speaker has basically vanished since Vanilla. He hasn't weighed in on any of the massive things that have happened since we stopped the black heart. Maybe he went on vacation? With each story the game highlights a character, then forgets about them in another DLC.

Well, the speaker's reaction to us destroying the literal heart of darkness in the black garden was to give us one single mote of light, so I can't really say I'm surprised that he's got no reaction at all to anything else that's been going on.

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The story in Destiny the game (separate from the grimoire) is garbage. It's not even underwhelming; it's downright nonexistent.

The most basic way to tell a story is as a series of events: First this happened. Then this happened. And then this. The end.

Your points are entirely valid and I pretty much agree with them all.

However, I do feel like pointing out that what you're talking about here, a series of events, is not a story, at least not entirely or exclusively. You're talking about plot, just one element. A story is plot, character, and setting.

Destiny is strong on setting, weak on character (with some notable exceptions) and has a very haphazard plot where events connect one to another only in limited, short-term ways, with the resolution of those events seemingly having no effect either on other short or medium term events, or on any presumed large scale plot (Light vs Darkness).

Part of that is because if its nature as a pseudo MMO. Normally you'd expect to see a significant event like, say, the destruction of Sepiks Prime in the first strike as having an effect on Fallen strength in the cosmodrome. But you can't affect patrol gameplay like that. So it had no effect. In later follow-up story missions we saw his corpse, although after the strike itself he disintegrates and leaves no corpse. You can repeat the event and no one acknowledges the repetition, but now that it is rebuilt as Sepiks Perfected, this demands acknowledgement. If only his original destruction had resulting in Guardians purging the Fallen from the cosmodrome, and thus preventing them from ever recovering Sepiks to rebuild him; but that would mean killing the zone for patrol play after that point.

That pretty much breaks a player's normal perception of causality unless you just play the missions and strikes once each, and in order. Since most players aren't going to do that, and Bungie doesn't want them to do that, it's not surprising that of all the story elements, plot is emphasized the least in Destiny.

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I hear what you're saying, but disagree that having your actions affect the game world isn't possible. In WoW they did instanced versions of entire zones, so that when you first arrived there was a great war, and when you finished all the quests half the zone was peaceful and the rest had mostly stabilized. Destiny has players as hosts, essentially, so there's no reason why the player data of the fireteam leader couldn't dictate which sorts of enemies appeared in patrol, or how powerful they were. Or they could even get sillier with it, and have defeating sepiks give you a 20 minute buff that made other fallen run away from you (or seek you out, specifically, for vengeance). There are loads of ways to give the player a sense of progression.

In even simpler terms, the VO lines in the tower could change as you progress through the story (and a couple did when we killed Crota, so this tech is already in the game), so that the chatter you hear could be super worried at the start of the game and then calm down a little as you progress, while also recounting your successes.

Anyway, my point was to illustrate how simplistic the storytelling in Destiny is, and not so much to debate the finer points of crafting a story.

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I hear what you're saying, but disagree that having your actions affect the game world isn't possible. In WoW they did instanced versions of entire zones, so that when you first arrived there was a great war, and when you finished all the quests half the zone was peaceful and the rest had mostly stabilized. Destiny has players as hosts, essentially, so there's no reason why the player data of the fireteam leader couldn't dictate which sorts of enemies appeared in patrol, or how powerful they were. Or they could even get sillier with it, and have defeating sepiks give you a 20 minute buff that made other fallen run away from you (or seek you out, specifically, for vengeance). There are loads of ways to give the player a sense of progression.

I am sure it is technically possible. However, to do that you're creating at least two instances of every zone, and dividing the available public population for those zones.

That means that new players or new characters who begin later in the expansion's lifetime will see less populated areas because of missions they haven't cleared.

There are, of course, lots of ways Bungie could technically have addressed these issues, but I feel that nearly all of them have consequences they did not want to cope with.

In even simpler terms, the VO lines in the tower could change as you progress through the story (and a couple did when we killed Crota, so this tech is already in the game), so that the chatter you hear could be super worried at the start of the game and then calm down a little as you progress, while also recounting your successes.

Anyway, my point was to illustrate how simplistic the storytelling in Destiny is, and not so much to debate the finer points of crafting a story.

I think to a great extent it is that way on purpose; to reflect the disinterest of a great portion of the playerbase (a mainstream gaming site did an hour of RoI gameplay on their channel this week and a commentator struggled to recall the name of the Hive) as well as the greater amount of repetition of events in a game of Destiny's type as compared to, say, Halo.

The increased focus on personal narrative since HoW/TTK feels out of place to me, for instance. Saladin calls me "young wolf", but does he say that to everyone? Cayde says that Vanguard wouldn't be what it is "without you" but who does he mean when he's saying it to a fireteam of 3?

Why does Bungie's narrative refuse to cope with the fact that the basic unit of gameplay in Destiny is the fireteam, not the individual player? Especially when ODST and even Reach did a better job of it than Destiny does?

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I am sure it is technically possible. However, to do that you're creating at least two instances of every zone, and dividing the available public population for those zones.

That means that new players or new characters who begin later in the expansion's lifetime will see less populated areas because of missions they haven't cleared.

I'd seriously question how many people would actually care about that. I certainly wouldn't. I can think of less than a handful of instances where interacting with other random people in patrol added anything fun or interesting to my gameplay. I think Destiny could get rid of that system completely and it'd honestly be a much better game for it. It is neat to see other people zooming around, but that's all it is. I don't personally think it's really worth all the apparent costs of having that system.

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Definitely. The only time I'm happy to have randos around is Court of Oryx. And I guess maybe this Archon's Forge thing now? Other than that, they're quite unnecessary to just about every experience I've had in two years' worth of Destiny. I'd rather have the ability to always go anywhere with a fireteam of six instead of three. It'd also help to get rid of this always online bullshit that makes the game unplayable upon server issues or weasel errors or a downed internet connection.

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I am sure it is technically possible. However, to do that you're creating at least two instances of every zone, and dividing the available public population for those zones.

That means that new players or new characters who begin later in the expansion's lifetime will see less populated areas because of missions they haven't cleared.

I'd seriously question how many people would actually care about that. I certainly wouldn't. I can think of less than a handful of instances where interacting with other random people in patrol added anything fun or interesting to my gameplay. I think Destiny could get rid of that system completely and it'd honestly be a much better game for it. It is neat to see other people zooming around, but that's all it is. I don't personally think it's really worth all the apparent costs of having that system.

While I largely agree, my personal hope would be for Bungie to find more ways to make the "public" aspects of the game more compelling, rather than ditch them. Seeing other players on Patrol rarely leads to cool experiences, but when it does, those are the magical little moments that help make Destiny something special. I want more of that :)

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While I largely agree, my personal hope would be for Bungie to find more ways to make the "public" aspects of the game more compelling, rather than ditch them. Seeing other players on Patrol rarely leads to cool experiences, but when it does, those are the magical little moments that help make Destiny something special. I want more of that :)

There is a cost to the ability to run into random people on patrol. I don't think the benefits outweigh the costs. The coolest experiences are those that you go in to with your friends (in my view). Bungie should double down on THOSE. If that means ditching the 'public' aspect of the game, then they should do that.

At the very least, allow people you meet to join your fireteam without having to go back to orbit!

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While I largely agree, my personal hope would be for Bungie to find more ways to make the "public" aspects of the game more compelling, rather than ditch them. Seeing other players on Patrol rarely leads to cool experiences, but when it does, those are the magical little moments that help make Destiny something special. I want more of that :)

There is a cost to the ability to run into random people on patrol. I don't think the benefits outweigh the costs. The coolest experiences are those that you go in to with your friends (in my view). Bungie should double down on THOSE. If that means ditching the 'public' aspect of the game, then they should do that.

At the very least, allow people you meet to join your fireteam without having to go back to orbit!

I'll totally grant you that running into random people adds little in terms of quantifiable gains... But there's something about it. I don't know if you ever played The Division, but one of my biggest problems with the game is that the open world was a privat instance and you never stumbled across other players out on the streets. There was such a huge disconnect caused by walking into one of the safe houses and seeing it filled with a dozen human players, but as soon as you step out onto the street there's NOBODY. I didn't even want to do anything with the other players, per say. Just knowing that they're there would have been enough for me.

I worry that removing the public nature of Destiny's patrol zones would have a similar effect. It just wouldn't feel right to me.

*side note*

There's something about this topic that goes deeper than it should for me. Destiny's "always connected" nature has actually affected my ability to enjoy games where I'm "alone" anymore. The only way I can enjoy a typical single player game anymore is if it pulls me into the world so completely that I really do forget that I'm the only person there. Games like that are few and far between. It's like I crave the feeling of a crowd, even if I'm just doing my own thing.

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The game could just have put bots out on patrol which look like other players.

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The game could just have put bots out on patrol which look like other players.

I'm sure that would be a perfect solution for plenty of players, but it wouldn't do the trick for me. The Division has plenty of NPCs out in the world, but it's not a replacement.

The best alternative I've seen is the Drivatar system in the Forza Horizon series. The game creates virtual avatars of all your friends that play the game (mimics their vehicle selection, driving skill and style), and then populates the open world with these virtual versions of your friends. It also populates actual races and events with these drivatars, often using actual data from their personal times on those same tracks. It all works beautifully well. Even though I know I'm not *actually* playing with my friends, it creates a sense of playing together as a community while playing offline.

I don't know if or how Destiny could incorporate anything similar.

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I dunno. For me, the moments in Destiny that made me laugh the most were coming across 5-8 people shooting into a cave and joining in to have dance parties. Then the pure chaos that was the enemies moving against each other.

It's such a dumb moment in the context of what we've accomplished in the game, but those were the moments that hooked me into the game.

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Tower VO DOES change based on your progression. Haven't you ever hear Eris say "Oryx is dead!"?

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Tower VO DOES change based on your progression. Haven't you ever hear Eris say "Oryx is dead!"?

Not just her. The Cryptarch also acknowledges raid completion when he asks, "so, a killer of Oryx, then?"

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That was for you investment bankers out there.

Full disclosure: I have only just finished the "campaign". I use quotes because it's FIVE missions, and frankly, the Clovis Bray mission shouldn't count. Even Junior, who could pretty much care less about story, declared "that's it?" as the mission end screen appeared.

I feel your pain. I wanted more story depth and explanation. I'm enjoying the new patrol space - though I wish it connected to the Cosmodrome without going back to orbit. I am thoroughly enjoying the new art and music.

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But I think you and Kahzgul have said it all quite eloquently at this point. This expansion is a joke. I seriously hope the Raid justifies the $30.

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To make this worse, inexplicably (literally, it is not explained hardly at all) the Fallen are after it. To be clear what I mean, I mean that the Fallen are pursuing the SIVA technology. This implies a knowledge of its existence, experience with it as a useful force, but there's no explanation as to how the Fallen became aware of it. Just that they are. (Are you noticing a trend, we are constantly just told things are just the way they are, with no actual evidence or reason to support it).

The opening cutscene explains that the House of Devils had been searching through our old research posts system wide. They found records of SIVA at the Clovis Bray facility. And the reason? The Fallen are desperately seeking any technology they think might help them survive. Skolas hijacked Vex technology. The Devils hijacked SIVA.

I think a much more interesting plot direction would have been to make the nano-technology artificially intelligent such that SIVA itself was trying to escape the bunker it was sealed in. Perhaps the SIVA finally found a way through the bunker (it can supposedly meld/penetrate/create some sort of change in whatever it touches, right)? In this way, SIVA would have slowly crept into the Plaguelands, and then perhaps serendipitously, a Fallen may have been "infected" by SIVA. A much more organic (perhaps, gruesome) evolution of the Fallen into Splicers would have taken place.

Having SIVA itself be intelligent would diminish Rasputin's role in the tragedy. His actions have been at the edges of Destiny's story since the beginning and with each new expansion we are slowly moving towards him being revealed as a major threat to humanity and the Traveler.

This "leaking out" of SIVA would also have given more of an explanation as to how the Guardians are currently unaware of its presence. It is absolutely implausible that Guardians who have been patrolling the Cosmodrome for two years would NOT have noticed that something was growing and invading The Divide or The Rocket Yards or The Wall. No sense can be made of this, unless you are trying to argue that every single last guardian was on the Dreadnaught for so long that no one noticed this technological invasion.

What makes you think it took two years for the House of Devils to use SIVA to breach the wall? The Devils had just right then knocked the Rocketyard patrol beacon sensors offline at the end of the second mission. I take that to mean that the invasion of the Cosmodrome is only days old at that point. Having the City completely focused on the alien god who destroyed thousands of civilizations could have been a clever secondary reason that nobody noticed what the Devils were really up to, but the primary reason would seem to be that they moved fast once they took control of the SIVA replication chamber.

My next gripe with this is the complete and utter lack of communication between Lord Saladin and The Vanguard. Why on Earth would The Vanguard not be informed of SIVA? What motivation does Lord Saladin actually have for expunging it from the records? Grief? Bullshit. If your friends all die from an out of control nano-technology, you tell someone about the damn technology so none of their friends die. Am I really to believe that someone as noble as Lord Saladin, an Iron Lord, whose sole purpose is to be a "guardian", a protector, wouldn't tell the truth? That he would just omit some vital information for possibly centuries?

On the other hand, Jolder detonated some kind of explosives and then... everything stopped. For 400+ years there was no SIVA threat. And it wasn't just that SIVA had wiped out his friends. It was that the Iron Lords sought it out and activated it and were destroyed by it. With direct first hand experience on just how bad things can go maybe he felt justified keeping his secrets.

Lastly, did we really just seal SIVA back up? How moronic is this? We know it didn't work once, why on earth would we do it twice? Why not have a mission where maybe things don't go successfully (and that's the point). After we fight the Guardian Reapers (another Mass Effect reference), and we set off a detonation sequence, there should be a cut scene that's already showing the SIVA crawling out as a statement as to the futility of taking such a course of action. It should prove that the jarhead mentality that Guardians who just shoot everything cannot defeat everything. SIVA lives on, as it has for hundreds of years. Then maybe you write some more story (five missions, that's it?) to help us actually scientifically combat SIVA (we used to have tons of scientists right, that's how all this began in the Golden Age?).

No. Neither we nor the Iron Lords ever sealed SIVA away. 400 years ago Saladin and the others fought to destroy the SIVA production facility. Their plan worked, it just had a high cost and wasn't thorough enough.The Devils repaired the facility, notably they used the nuclear reactor from the freighter to power it, and restarted the production of SIVA. Our Guardian came along and input the self destruct codes that destroyed the replication for good. Sealing the doors was never about trapping SIVA somewhere. It was about protecting someone (first Saladin and later our Guardian) from the blast.

SIVA does in fact live on, however. In at least two ways. First, the Devils still have a significant quantity of SIVA. They can't make anymore, but what amount they do have makes them a threat. Second... well the second interesting thing that happened with SIVA wasn't spoonfed via cutscene or voiceover so it's clearly not worth discussing.

Honestly, I'm ready to give it up. The only satisfying reason to play is to play with all of you, which truly is satisfying. Anyone in this forum could have written a better story arc and come up with more creative plot devices than Bungie did with this one. As you can tell, I'm pretty disappointed.

So, what say ye? I didn't write this not to hear your thoughts, so let's hear them.

I liked the story. I liked that we got to see the Fallen accomplish something with all their scavenging. Liked that we learned about the past before the City came into prominence. Liked that we now have a clear example of Rasputin working against humanity.

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This is a five star post.

However, I do have one caveat I would place: I don't think adequate information is provided that Rasputin is a threat or being actively malicious. We don't get any information other than that Rasputin's defenses were brought to bear trying to keep the Iron Lords out of the SIVA replicator. Whether he was trying to protect SIVA for himself (I don't personally feel this way) or to protect humanity from the Iron Lords opening the regional Pandora's Box (I think this is more likely given his general actions in the past) is not made clear. What is made clear is that he does not work to stop our Guardian from entering and doing the work we do.

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I don't think adequate information is provided that Rasputin is a threat or being actively malicious. We don't get any information other than that Rasputin's defenses were brought to bear trying to keep the Iron Lords out of the SIVA replicator. Whether he was trying to protect SIVA for himself (I don't personally feel this way) or to protect humanity from the Iron Lords opening the regional Pandora's Box (I think this is more likely given his general actions in the past) is not made clear. What is made clear is that he does not work to stop our Guardian from entering and doing the work we do.

The latter is how it came across to me. It sounded to me like Rasputin was doing everything he could to prevent SIVA from being unleashed.

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I don't think adequate information is provided that Rasputin is a threat or being actively malicious. We don't get any information other than that Rasputin's defenses were brought to bear trying to keep the Iron Lords out of the SIVA replicator. Whether he was trying to protect SIVA for himself (I don't personally feel this way) or to protect humanity from the Iron Lords opening the regional Pandora's Box (I think this is more likely given his general actions in the past) is not made clear. What is made clear is that he does not work to stop our Guardian from entering and doing the work we do.

The latter is how it came across to me. It sounded to me like Rasputin was doing everything he could to prevent SIVA from being unleashed.

I have nothing to back this up aside from some vague Grimoire cards and one line in the campaign, but I think they intentionally mention so it's foreshadowing for what happens in the Raid. Either Rasputin ends up being the big bad (one of the cards you find, Rasputin 6, mentions that he has his function for population protection turned off and decided not to turn it back on, and then decides not to reset his moral structures either), or he helps us take out the big bad in the Raid. In fact he even says this:

"SIVA use authorized. Self-destructs disengaged. Security codes reset. All defenses activated. Frames activated."

So he's okay using SIVA and activated even more defenses.

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That grimoire card is what threw me off. Rasputin definitely seems to want to stop the Iron Lords, but not The Guardian. But he also authorises SIVA use when Site 6 is breached.

My thoughts were that, crazy risk-taking warmind that he is, Rasputin was willing to do anything to prevent SIVA activation, up to and including doing it himself before the Iron Lords could, in the hope that they'd see what it was and change their mind/try to stop it. Which worked!

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Could be.

One interesting question is raised by Ghost Fragment: Old Russia 4. This would appear to be the AI of a colony ship being ordered by Rasputin to take SIVA somewhere far away... Presumably this is after the Golden Age and the Collapse or else why wouldn't the ship be carrying people and supplies. So... what was Rasputin's plan there? Being ordered 9 billion miles away would mean that Rasputin really did send this ship out of our solar system... and to the stars?

(For reference Voyager 2 is roughly 9 billion miles away at this point.)

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However, I do have one caveat I would place: I don't think adequate information is provided that Rasputin is a threat or being actively malicious. We don't get any information other than that Rasputin's defenses were brought to bear trying to keep the Iron Lords out of the SIVA replicator. Whether he was trying to protect SIVA for himself (I don't personally feel this way) or to protect humanity from the Iron Lords opening the regional Pandora's Box (I think this is more likely given his general actions in the past) is not made clear. What is made clear is that he does not work to stop our Guardian from entering and doing the work we do.

Yes, what the heck is going on w/ Rasputin? I haven't read any of the "Rise" grimoire, just heard the few phrases uttered by Saladin. Those lines were confusing to me, but this clarifies them to me.

So here's my question, what the heck are all of these little drones flying all over the place? Are they Rasputin scouting around to see what's going on? They don't look SIVA, they don't look like fallen tech, if anything they look like human tech.

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So here's my question, what the heck are all of these little drones flying all over the place? Are they Rasputin scouting around to see what's going on? They don't look SIVA, they don't look like fallen tech, if anything they look like human tech.

Not sure, but you can shot them. I'm still trying to decide what they are doing. Are they repairing the damaged structures? Are they causing the cuts in the walls?

If they are causing the cuts, then according to the ROI dialog they must be involved with the Fallen because they are helping to "collect" metal to be fed to SIVA to create things. If they are doing repairs then I'd guess they were sent by the city, but then why are we able to shoot them?

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They've been in the game since vanilla, usually only seen around public events where those glimmer extractor machines spawn.

I saw one get deployed by a Fallen skiff while wandering around the plaguelands yesterday.

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I need to go back through the missions and cutscenes. The feeling I have (but can't back up at the moment) is that the Iron Lords had to fight through SIVA to get to Site 6 all because they were trying to stop the uncontrolled spread of SIVA and that Rasputin, who was controlling the SIVA, was fighting them all the way in.

That said, Ghost Fragment: Rasputin 6does read more like a defensive action against an unauthorized intrusion to a military facility. The operation that killed the Iron Lords was named PALISADE IMPERATIVE which has very defensive connotations. We also have an in game reference to Felwinter trying to either talk to Rasputin or ask for his help with SIVA.

I think the key is going to be that long cutscene of the murals in the Iron Temple where Saladin explains what happened. I've only seen it once so far but hopefully when I see it again tonight it'll help me try and piece together the entire series of events...

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I need to go back through the missions and cutscenes. The feeling I have (but can't back up at the moment) is that the Iron Lords had to fight through SIVA to get to Site 6 all because they were trying to stop the uncontrolled spread of SIVA and that Rasputin, who was controlling the SIVA, was fighting them all the way in.

That said, Ghost Fragment: Rasputin 6does read more like a defensive action against an unauthorized intrusion to a military facility. The operation that killed the Iron Lords was named PALISADE IMPERATIVE which has very defensive connotations. We also have an in game reference to Felwinter trying to either talk to Rasputin or ask for his help with SIVA.

I think the key is going to be that long cutscene of the murals in the Iron Temple where Saladin explains what happened. I've only seen it once so far but hopefully when I see it again tonight it'll help me try and piece together the entire series of events...

After a good bit of watching cutscenes and reading Grimoire cards I think maybe yeah... This was not an attack by Rasputin and probably even wasn't SIVA running out of control. It seems the Iron Lords first learned of SIVA when Lord Timur had a chance run in with Felwinter. The Iron Lords thought they had discovered a way to reclaim the Golden age... and maybe they had... but given everything I could find it seems much more likely they started poking around in places they shouldn't have and Rasputin defended his secure sites to devastating effect.

Most notably is, as I suspected, the cutscene with Saladin where he talks about what happened. He doesn't say SIVA was running rampant or that Rasputin attacked him and his fellow Iron Lords. He says they sought out SIVA and Rasputin "responded." This fits very closely with Rasputin responding in the aforementioned Ghost Fragment: Rasputin 6.

The only real oddities at this point are that Felwinter, who I believe is an Exo Warlock, had been obsessed with Rasputin for some time and had been transmitting to him for a long period of time without getting a response.

This breach of his facilities by Guardians may also be why Rasputin remains silent even to the present day. I still think he gave up the defense of Humanity and that he attacked the Traveler and that he is ultimately seeking to survive the closure of the universe alone... but in this case perhaps he wasn't actively hostile...

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So, what say ye? I didn't write this not to hear your thoughts, so let's hear them.

I liked the story. I liked that we got to see the Fallen accomplish something with all their scavenging. Liked that we learned about the past before the City came into prominence. Liked that we now have a clear example of Rasputin working against humanity.

Agreed. I liked the story, it felt cut short in order to fit in what could be accomplished with the available resources. There's enough material here that this 'side story' could have been fleshed out into a full fledged TTK sized expansion. In fact, I feel this, in game, tells a story as big as TTK did, in game. The story telling is certainly improved over TTK and along with that my emotional engagement. If Destiny 2 ends up being equal to what a fully fleshed out version of this could be then I'll be very happy.

I wish they would have spent more time exploring Rasputin & his role in this. Was he really working against humanity? I'm not sure.

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Having SIVA itself be intelligent would diminish Rasputin's role in the tragedy. His actions have been at the edges of Destiny's story since the beginning and with each new expansion we are slowly moving towards him being revealed as a major threat to humanity and the Traveler.

Agreed, but shouldn't that be the other way around?

If Rasputin stopped the Traveler from leaving-- from abandoning humanity the way it abandoned all its former client races, like the ones who now either serve or make up "the darkness", then Rasputin is a threat to the Traveler, but not to humanity. The Traveler itself may be that threat.

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I love how everyone is talking about the grimoire and not the game.

But yeah, Rise of Iron illustrates very well why the concept of critical mass exists. When you have a game so small, so brief, and so insubstantial, you just can;t do a lot even if you write something good. There's just not enough time and resources to set this up and tell it properly.

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Don't click the email notification checkbox if a feud is likely to happen.

Trying to get work done yesterday was challenging with my phone buzzing every 30 seconds from a new email.

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Of course then you don't get calls

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Of course then you don't get calls

Sounds perfect. Is there any way to block all calls and messages and still be able to dick around on reddit? (:

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On Iphone it is the moon icon.

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So I just read all the SIVA cluster grimoire entries and I gotta say, they're a huge disappointment compared to the Calcified Fragments. They're all very short, usually just a few lines of dialogue, and they tell us almost nothing.

Seriously, the Tl;Dr is 10 short cards to say Clovis Bray ignored Shirazi's warnings and made SIVA anyway, 10 cards doing nothing but namedropping secondary Iron Lords, and 10 fragmented cards of Aksis' insane ranting (which is admittedly kind of interesting, but hard to parse and lacking in detail).

Compared to the Books of Sorrow (and the new Iron Lord cards, which are great) they're really lacklustre and I feel like they could have dome so much more in terms of describing (if not explaining) SIVA and its effects/impact.

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Compared to the Books of Sorrow (and the new Iron Lord cards, which are great) they're really lacklustre and I feel like they could have dome so much more in terms of describing (if not explaining) SIVA and its effects/impact.

Why not let us SEE it? We see swarms of Siva in the opening cutscene which eludes to it being bad stuff, but never in game or in a cutscene do we see that stuff swarming to take something down, or mutating something or what have you.

We're TOLD how bad it is, but we never experience that ourselves.

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Compared to the Books of Sorrow (and the new Iron Lord cards, which are great) they're really lacklustre and I feel like they could have dome so much more in terms of describing (if not explaining) SIVA and its effects/impact.

Why not let us SEE it? We see swarms of Siva in the opening cutscene which eludes to it being bad stuff, but never in game or in a cutscene do we see that stuff swarming to take something down, or mutating something or what have you.

We're TOLD how bad it is, but we never experience that ourselves.

The Fallen don't understand SIVA. They're like bad kids that should return SIVA to gamestop because they're embarrassing Rasputin.

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Underwhelmed with Rise of Iron Story (Destiny)

About hiding it from everyone *SP?*

About hiding it from everyone *SP?*

About hiding it from everyone *SP?*