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It's great with a good auto rifle, so naturally, it's been an aquired taste for me. Supremacy is personally way too aggressive and in-your-face for my tastes. The smaller map choices prohibit a great deal of long-range support combat that I favor.

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Went in earlier this evening with a team I play with often; usually, we're a solid group, winning more than we lose, occasionally with moments of brilliance. Tonight... not so much. We got our asses handed to us five straight games.

I took a break, played some Archon's Forge, patrolled a bit. Came back with SteelGaribaldi (who'd been playing with us in the first, horrible, round), got stomped again. Picked up Midnight and CougRon... another beating. Finally picked up two buddies I used to raid with a bunch, and everything turned around.

4 straight wins, a game we probably would have lost had we not all been Anteater'd, then two more wins before we lost too much of the team to remain coherent.

When stomping, Supremacy is really, really fun. When getting stomped, it's exactly the opposite. (I think this is more true of Supremacy than any other Destiny gametype. I can lose - even lose badly - at Control, or Clash, or even Rift, and not feel like hiding under the dining room table. Supremacy makes me want to cry when it's bad.)

Dunno. I figure it'll even out as I get more used to it. It's still a novelty.

Supremacy is strange. I feel like its probably because matchmaking, but people seem to forget Destiny's base mechanics and how to control a spawn. They're all too busy rushing around with a shotgun and Jugg Shield, trading kills or getting surrounded (or flipping the spawns so it's impossible to hold a position).

Part of me likes that it's so much more mobile, but I don't enjoy how frequently I'll push up with a group of blueberries desparate to pick up crests (god forbid you hang back and get instantly teamshot by people spawning behind you) only to have them scatter and sll die individual, horrible deaths.

I also don't like that it seems to encourage behaviour that would otherwise be considered poor play. Rushing endlessly with a shotgun is fine if you have two friends with you doing the same, because when one or two of you is killed, the crest is denied immediately by the third. Ive seen my team do this and the three players had abysmally low K/D but it didn't matter be ause they only had to kill and collect from one person to break even. Meanwhile ranged teamshooting engagements earn very few points as both teams take it in turns dying and denying with no one able to pick up any crests. In fact ranged engagements (like the inevitable mid-map one on Icarus) seem only to serve the purpose of seeing whose stormcaller or hammerbro can get their super first.

None of which is inherently bad. It's just kind of awkward.

Edit: I also feel that I spend much more time hiding or running to recover my health than normal, which is actually kind of cool. In most gametypes if I kill three then die that's a win. In Supremacy that's completely worthless unless you can get the crests. Sadly it seems Destiny's maps are nkt actually well built for cowering (I've been shot from angles I was certain I was safe fron more times than I can count) but it's a cool changeup from the norm.

Double Edit: I seem to be having a lot of triuble with my radar this IB. Maybe it's all the shotguns, but the number of times my radar has been clear exceot for a lone red blip, only to get shot from three different directions is staggering. Luckily it doesnt matter because ranged combat is meaningless in Supremacy, but I was wondering if anyone else has noticed/struggled with this?

If I see red bars in the game I know I won't be able to pick up their crests. I have gotten killed way too much while running back and forth over crests that it won't let me pick up. It's really frustrating when I get killed while trying, only to see the person that killed me run over and pick up mine and the one I was trying to pick up.

All the rest of my complaints have to do with playing with randoms. It's like rift. I know within the first minute whether I'm on the team that will win or lose. I haven't seen a come from behind win yet. I've seen more games mercy ruled than when IB was rift. Either the team runs together or it doesn't. I try to stick with teammates, but if I see them scatter and the other team didn't, I know right away my team will lose.

Instead of red and blue, maybe people would actually friggin pick them up!

That's really been my only negative experience with it, I love the mode.

I will say that because of the way IB works with differences enabled, there are some games where I get absolutely dunked on simply because I'm under leveled to my opponent.

In Vanilla Supremacy, I do pretty dang good.

part of it is all the shotgunning. I've always done well hanging back with my TLAOC until my super is up, and i can't really do that here. Another problem is that i am equipping my highest light gear so that i can get better drops, except my highest light gear totally fubars my intellect and discipline. I finally broke down and infused into my older, better gear so that i could balance my stats back out, so hopefully this weekend goes better.

anyways, i've lost 12 straight games this IB. some with friends, some solo.

If I see red bars in the game I know I won't be able to pick up their crests. I have gotten killed way too much while running back and forth over crests that it won't let me pick up. It's really frustrating when I get killed while trying, only to see the person that killed me run over and pick up mine and the one I was trying to pick up.

This is beyond frustrating. I haven't run into it too often, but when I do, it's infuriating.

I haven't seen a come from behind win yet. I've seen more games mercy ruled than when IB was rift. Either the team runs together or it doesn't. I try to stick with teammates, but if I see them scatter and the other team didn't, I know right away my team will lose.

I've had the exact opposite experience. Lots of come from behind victories (and losses) and I've only seen one game mercy-ruled. All of the games so far have felt so much closer than any previous Iron Banner.

My only real gripe this time around is that these games don't count toward Supremacy wins in the Rise of Iron record book. I'm not a huge PvP fan, so I was pretty much counting on IB to help me knock out those 10 wins.

-Disciple

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and I kind of like it.

Then again, they might assume it would go to their postmaster and not pick those up either.

I'm in so many games that my team completely ignores the crests, or the other team just camps them to nail the poor guy trying to play the correctly or both.

Wish there was a more efficient way to level up gear that did not involve the crucible.

and I kind of like it.

As far as maps go, Icarus probably has the worst spawn system of any Bungie map to date, and is far too small to ever get solid map control... And it's all the better for it. I've compared it to Nuketown from Call of Duty, which is more or less a joke map that everyone loves to play (it's even gotten its own "Nuketown 24/7" playlists).

Supremacy on that map is just a huge fun mess, and a frantic tug-of-war more often than not.

I also don't like that it seems to encourage behaviour that would otherwise be considered poor play. Rushing endlessly with a shotgun is fine if you have two friends with you doing the same, because when one or two of you is killed, the crest is denied immediately by the third. Ive seen my team do this and the three players had abysmally low K/D but it didn't matter be ause they only had to kill and collect from one person to break even. Meanwhile ranged teamshooting engagements earn very few points as both teams take it in turns dying and denying with no one able to pick up any crests. In fact ranged engagements (like the inevitable mid-map one on Icarus) seem only to serve the purpose of seeing whose stormcaller or hammerbro can get their super first.

Running around without teammates backing you up is a recipe for getting stomped. I find that there are 2 winning play-styles in supremacy:
1- a team of 4-6 moving around the map as a group mopping up the other team, or a variation of the same thing two coordinated groups of 3/3 or 4/2 moving around the map as a group with the smaller group flanking. (short to medium range weapons dominate, fusion rifles can be amazing)
2- locking down an area and drinking the sweet stream of blueberry juice that trickles into your position. You just have to develop a small push & fallback rhythm to collect all the crests they drop, a small push forward to kill & pickup crests then fallback to lure them to the kill box again. (I've seen teams shine that have one or two snipers or a couple mid-long range players with the rest of the team playing short range)
I think the map & team you have will determine which strategy is the best.

I find I do best when I'm a just a few meters behind a teammate & teamshoot whoever they're engaging with. I also do well luring people around a corner only to meet up w/ my partially charge fusion rifle at short-mid range.

Edit: I guess the point of this whole post was to say, "yeah, I see people just rushing endlessly with a shotgun, and that's totally a recipe for failure unless you have friends backing you up." I guess it doesn't bother me that behaviors that can be losing behaviors in other modes can be winning behaviors in this mode. The game mode is different & rewards different strategies.

and I kind of like it.

As far as maps go, Icarus probably has the worst spawn system of any Bungie map to date, and is far too small to ever get solid map control... And it's all the better for it. I've compared it to Nuketown from Call of Duty, which is more or less a joke map that everyone loves to play (it's even gotten its own "Nuketown 24/7" playlists).

Supremacy on that map is just a huge fun mess, and a frantic tug-of-war more often than not.

I'll look forward to that when I get back on the PS4.

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Then again, I want story missions with customizable modifiers. Rainbow burn on every single mission.

Don't listen to me.

I have had both the radar and fake cover problems. Very frustrating. Ido like that it is more mobile, but kind of wish that it had a more nuanced ammo economy. Because it would be improved if it were more focused on primary-on-primary engagements. But I think the only thing I honestly don't like is the fact that it uses Clash Spawns, which as a rule fall into the category of utter nonsense. As they never seem to operate consistently even with advantageous map control while it does work in games such as Control.

Spawning with the enemy team is totally stupid. That's what I'm sayin'.

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At least, the PvP design of Destiny.

Because of the frenetic motion of the supremacy game mode, spawns are completely borked. It seems to me that, rather than doing a real-time evaluation of where the best spawns are, the game is only periodically evaluating and assigning spawn locations. This has never been apparent until now. The result is that you frequently spawn where your team *was* 10-15 seconds ago, but since that's now where the enemy team is, you're kind of screwed. While this mechanic is technically "fair" (it applies regardless of which team is spawning), the fact of the matter is that it skews greatly towards a winning team by spawning the losing team in places where the winners already surround them.

The maps in Destiny do a horrible job of utilizing vertical space for long range shooters. A hallmark of games like CoD and Counterstrike is having rooms that are "sniper perches." There's only one way into the room, and it has a window through which you can see a large majority of the open space on a given map. The room is also almost always elevated which provides a more clear shot. In a game mode like supremacy, this provides an advantage - the sniper can pick off enemies as they run to collect orbs and can protect his teammates doing the same. In Destiny, these perches don't exist. At all. So snipers and scout riflers are stuck on the ground where stray bullets can give them flinch, they're subject to surprise attacks from around corners, their teammates are constantly bumping them, and they can't get a clear shot through the crowd of their own players.

Speaking of poor map design for long range weapons users: Destiny's spawns are always fluid. There is not a single game mode where the spawns are fixed. That means a sniper, who by definition *should* have to be ADS most of the time, is often caught from behind by a respawning enemy, which negates the value of being able to lock down a corridor. This is far more frequent in supremacy.

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If all of the map design favors frenetic movement and shotguns, why even use snipers? Well, it also favors quickscoping, because a OHK at any range is better than a OHK at close range only. So players like RealKraftyy and TrueVanguard who are terrific quick scope snipers excelled at this game. Now, with the sniper nerfs, the weapon type has been neutered. It's practically useless. So sniping is out.

What's a scout rifler to do? Scouts are still decent, especially team shooting with the high impact ones. This is important: Supremacy is, like all Destiny games, going to be won and lost on the backs of teamwork rather than individual play. Shoot the same targets all the time, and your team will win, shoot different targets, and you will lose. I still have trouble with this. My instincts, from years and years of hardcore CoD play, are to shoot the guy no one else sees. And I'm a kick ass CoD player. But in Destiny, you want to shoot the same guy as your friend, always. Scout rifles are great for helping allies who are downfield. Just aim over his shoulder from your elevated posi-crap. Well, do your best.

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Another tip here is to play the game that IS and not the game you wish it were. Like snipers but not shotguns? Tough luck dude. The meta favors shotguns, the maps favor shotguns, and this game mode favors shotguns. Play with anything that isn't a shotgun and you're gonna have a rough time. This is poor design and balance on the part of Bungie, but it's the fact we have to grapple with, and if you want to win, you're going to need to get with their program, I'm sorry to say.

Yeah, because it would be the only map in destiny with elevated rooms from which to shoot.

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My only real gripe this time around is that these games don't count toward Supremacy wins in the Rise of Iron record book. I'm not a huge PvP fan, so I was pretty much counting on IB to help me knock out those 10 wins.

There's a ton of things they don't count towards. I have a bounty for getting the highest score in any Crucible match - but it should say any non-Supremacy match, because these don't count. :(

Yeah... I'm usually really good at knowing what's going on around me just by doing a bit of rangefinding with my radar. A little quarter turn and back usually lets me pinpoint where an enemy is and if there are more than one of them... Except it Supremacy its like I see someone at the edge of Radar range and cautiously move up and then 7 enemies appear from all directions except the one indicated on my radar...

I guess because everyone is titan skating so fast that a blip on the edge now means they're one second from shotgun range??

There's a ton of things they don't count towards. I have a bounty for getting the highest score in any Crucible match - but it should say any non-Supremacy match, because these don't count. :(

Good to know. I haven't had the highest score since I started playing, so I still assumed it would count if I ever reached that top spot. I guess I can free up one more bounty space now.

-Disciple

There's a ton of things they don't count towards. I have a bounty for getting the highest score in any Crucible match - but it should say any non-Supremacy match, because these don't count. :(

Yeah they mentioned it in last week's TWAB as an issue they are aware of. I ended up discarding 3 of those bounties because of that bug.

If only bungie would treat it that way and get us matchmaking, netcode (dedicated servers, really), and spawns that lived up to the caliber of competitive pvp this game is capable of. The actual cat and mouse of gameplay is incredibly deep.

I would say that Bungie doesn't care about competitive play, so that may not be a thing. I don't think competitive play has really been a priority since Halo 3. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on so many levels, but I think Destiny's main priority for Bungie was the social aspects and whatnot. The lack of dedicated servers in this thing from day one I think showed all of their intent right out of the gate.

Then again, they might assume it would go to their postmaster and not pick those up either.

I'm in so many games that my team completely ignores the crests, or the other team just camps them to nail the poor guy trying to play the correctly or both.

Wish there was a more efficient way to level up gear that did not involve the crucible.

If you're below 365 you can level up from infusing heroic strike blue drops into your engrams, and from decrypting engrams, which you should have bazillions of.

If you're 365+, you can level up by infusing drops from the forge, decrypted exotic engrams, using skeleton keys at the end of heroic strikes, getting gear from rep packages, or from raid drops.

Is iron banana an easy way to level up? Yes. But it's not the only way by any means.

I would say that Bungie doesn't care about competitive play, so that may not be a thing. I don't think competitive play has really been a priority since Halo 3. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on so many levels, but I think Destiny's main priority for Bungie was the social aspects and whatnot. The lack of dedicated servers in this thing from day one I think showed all of their intent right out of the gate.

I fully agree with you. It's just a shame, because the potential for Destiny to become *the* competitive FPS game is certainly there. They've nailed movement and gun feel. Still need polish on weapon balance, but they've come a long way. When there's no lag, the game is really great to play. I feel like things are bit chaotic as we all get a feel for how the Iron relics affect gameplay, but once that settles down everything should go back to being smooth as butter. The trials mode, especially, feels like a chess match - it's great.

You should have played with me two days ago. We lost every game in the final minute.

The maps in Destiny do a horrible job of utilizing vertical space for long range shooters. A hallmark of games like CoD and Counterstrike is having rooms that are "sniper perches." There's only one way into the room, and it has a window through which you can see a large majority of the open space on a given map. The room is also almost always elevated which provides a more clear shot. In a game mode like supremacy, this provides an advantage>

It provides a camping spot for people to camp. This is a poor choice for a mobile game mode in a very mobile game archtype. Please keep to elimination if you want that playstyle.

As far as primaries go, you can do well with scouts. If anything I feel pulses are too good across too much of the various range bands, and that is what crowds out HCs and Scouts. Scouts Rof and TTK are too high for short range work, and HCs can't hit anything at medium to long range, but Pulses work fine across the whole range band and are competitive with the best of class in each. There needs to be a tradeoff like the other weapons.

Likewise fusions are hard capped by the charge mechanic, so people avoid them and go shotgun. Shotguns would be Ok except you have Matadors and PC+1 which can kill you from a fair distance.

Bungie needs to invert the Damage/Range types so the high impact types all have low range, and the low impact all have high range. That way the OHK need to work a bit more instead of Jugg/Shotty across the field.

It certainty didn't help when they boosted the Nirwen's Mercy class pulse rifles by 2% recently! Those things were already tearing me apart across most any map. :(

For a game whose players can jump 20+ feet vertically, they sure don't explore vertical in the crucible much.

Heck imagine a map similar to the new strike that has all the round walkways but you have to jump to the center platforms and over to get around? But make it narrower. And taller! Try sniping straight down on opponents (that would be really tough).

If all of the map design favors frenetic movement and shotguns, why even use snipers? Well, it also favors quickscoping, because a OHK at any range is better than a OHK at close range only. So players like RealKraftyy and TrueVanguard who are terrific quick scope snipers excelled at this game. Now, with the sniper nerfs, the weapon type has been neutered. It's practically useless. So sniping is out.

Another tip here is to play the game that IS and not the game you wish it were. Like snipers but not shotguns? Tough luck dude. The meta favors shotguns, the maps favor shotguns, and this game mode favors shotguns. Play with anything that isn't a shotgun and you're gonna have a rough time. This is poor design and balance on the part of Bungie, but it's the fact we have to grapple with, and if you want to win, you're going to need to get with their program, I'm sorry to say.

I agree with you on all of this. The problem I currently run into is not being high enough light to OHK with my shotgun. I'm currently 370-371 on all classes, and it seems like every game I run into several people 383+ who take nice shotgun blasts and survive them. Sure sometimes I can follow up with a melee, but most of the time I am already dead from their shotgun blast. I have found it better for me to play more supportive and focus on cutting off flanks and getting kills from afar than running around with a pea-shooting shotgun. Its worked well for me I think (somehow still end up towards the top of the leaderboard with crest pick ups?!)

Once I started doing that, I have found the benefit of Sniping in Supremacy! Shutting down Supers!

One Stormcaller, in a gamemode where people run together, can easily get 10 points in one super. Thats 1/15 the required winning score, which is pretty substantial. And that is just one super, which is going to create orbs for more. If I can snipe one or 2 supers (especially storm callers or hammerbros) I might as well be denying several friendly crests. It doesn't show on the scoreboard, but it does make a difference.

Of course, this is only if you can snipe fast and the rest of your team is decent enough for you to play like this. Once my lights a little higher I'll use shotguns more in supremacy.

TLDR: If you are having light level issues, try Sniping!

I would love this. Destiny is designed almost entirely to be traversed horizontally. When there is verticality, it's to choose a different horizontal path, rather than to reach an elevated position overlooking a lower horizontal path.

The damage difference in light levels is apparently not noticeable in terms of shots to kill until 20 light levels of disparity. You shouldn't have any trouble OHKing with a shotgun at 10-15 light difference. That being said, they did also reintroduce The Matador which has absurd range and fires quickly, so it's possible you're just meeting some people with super high range shotties.

I, for one, have been using The Chaperone exclusively during IB and Trials in order to compete with the high range Matadors. God I love that gun.

The damage difference in light levels is apparently not noticeable in terms of shots to kill until 20 light levels of disparity. You shouldn't have any trouble OHKing with a shotgun at 10-15 light difference. That being said, they did also reintroduce The Matador which has absurd range and fires quickly, so it's possible you're just meeting some people with super high range shotties.

I, for one, have been using The Chaperone exclusively during IB and Trials in order to compete with the high range Matadors. God I love that gun.

I didnt think it made a difference either, but I did not run into these issues until trials came out and now IB. I forgot how to snipe when I came into RoI, and tried shotgunning halfway through my first trials, but ended up having to switch to sniping. I don't have the data to back it up right now, I will try and record some games this weekend If I shotgun.

And Yes, I have seen alot of chaperone lately.

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The damage difference in light levels is apparently not noticeable in terms of shots to kill until 20 light levels of disparity. You shouldn't have any trouble OHKing with a shotgun at 10-15 light difference. That being said, they did also reintroduce The Matador which has absurd range and fires quickly, so it's possible you're just meeting some people with super high range shotties.

I, for one, have been using The Chaperone exclusively during IB and Trials in order to compete with the high range Matadors. God I love that gun.

I didnt think it made a difference either, but I did not run into these issues until trials came out and now IB. I forgot how to snipe when I came into RoI, and tried shotgunning halfway through my first trials, but ended up having to switch to sniping. I don't have the data to back it up right now, I will try and record some games this weekend If I shotgun.

Hmm. I tried to look up an article I saw on Reddit about light level differences but I can't find one that references shotguns specifically. For sniper rifles the difference from two body shots to 1 is 20 light levels. For hand cannons the difference between 3 shots (1 crit, 2 body) and 2 shots (2 crit) appears to be 15-20 light levels depending on how much armor the target is running. Nothing on shotguns that I can find. Sorry. Anecdotally I noticed no difference with my PC+1 when I was 370 light re: ranges where I expect to get a kill from. That being said, it's clearly outclassed by the Matadors running wild all over, which is why I changes to Chappy.

And Yes, I have seen alot of chaperone lately.

Really?? I'm the only I've seen using it since IB came out.

I don't necessarily think a lack of dedicated servers is Bungie's specific doing. It's been pretty obvious that Activision wasn't 100% on their gamble with Destiny. In a sense that they weren't sure if it would be a game that would survive so why put forth the extra for dedicated servers, especially with what has been a somewhat temperamental development as the game finds its legs.

I don't think there's anything to support this. Regardless, dedicated servers is but one issue. Bungie has hardly focused on competitive gameplay since Halo 3. Destiny as a whole has the pieces but not the focus or care for it. Crucible itself has hardly been a priority as far as playlist variety and gameplay is concerned. Kahzgul has nailed this. Bungie did multiplayer much better pre-Reach. Reach was a lot of Destiny testing when I play and look back on it now. And I enjoyed Reach and enjoy Destiny. Trials rocks. But oh well. Maybe Destiny 2 will get it right and focus more on the competitive.

Yeah... I'm usually really good at knowing what's going on around me just by doing a bit of rangefinding with my radar. A little quarter turn and back usually lets me pinpoint where an enemy is and if there are more than one of them... Except it Supremacy its like I see someone at the edge of Radar range and cautiously move up and then 7 enemies appear from all directions except the one indicated on my radar...

I guess because everyone is titan skating so fast that a blip on the edge now means they're one second from shotgun range??

I think it's just a general lack of caution. People just charge around a lot more in Supremacy instead of playing cautiously and defending points.

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Just started playing tonight. I absolutely dominate at this thing. It's a fun time. Good job Bungie! Now bring SRL back and make it permanent. And focus on competitive play in Destiny 2.

I didn't say only, I said efficient.

Just started playing tonight. I absolutely dominate at this thing. It's a fun time. Good job Bungie! Now bring SRL back and make it permanent. And focus on competitive play in Destiny 2.

Seriously, I'm on board with your entire platform.

IIRC, I was his running mate one cycle. Good guy. 10/10. Would Vice Pres nominee again.

and I kind of like it.

As far as maps go, Icarus probably has the worst spawn system of any Bungie map to date, and is far too small to ever get solid map control... And it's all the better for it. I've compared it to Nuketown from Call of Duty, which is more or less a joke map that everyone loves to play (it's even gotten its own "Nuketown 24/7" playlists).

Supremacy on that map is just a huge fun mess, and a frantic tug-of-war more often than not.

I'll look forward to that when I get back on the PS4.

Here's a look into a single life on the map.

Starts out slow, before becoming a frantic mess, where no place on the map is safe...