This is absolute bullshit. What's it matter if we stayed in the fucking room? We didn't get the chest because there were so many engrams and shit that we had to delete stuff. Wonderful.

Are you talking about the postgame results screen?

(I don't know, I can't do the raid.)

If you are, I got some bad news.

So check this shit out. No warning whatsoever. Just running along and *poof* we gone.

And Snape kills Dumbledore with rosebud when he was dead the whole time.

That's actually pretty damn fucked up.

My bad.

Can you not start the quest?

If it makes you feel better, the raid is the easiest part.

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nope. didn't open chest, no quest

It wouldn't even let us get to the chest to open it. Bungie for some reason in their infinite quest for player-hostile game design has elected to put some sort of unknown and non-notification time limit to the Raid after you've beaten it. It just happened to send us back to orbit the moment we were about to open that chest. I already knew Bungie didn't respect player time with Destiny, but this is pretty ridiculous.

I mean, it still sucks, but there's literally no content in the game that doesn't do this after a set time.

There's always next time.

I agree that Destiny can be player-hostile (or at least time-hostile, which is almost but not quite the same) but I really dont think this is an example of it. It's a long timer man. And you were what, running around picking up greens instead of doing what you went in there for?

*shrug*

I mean, it still sucks, but there's literally no content in the game that doesn't do this after a set time.

There's always next time.

There's no content that does it without warning. That is the issue.

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This is absolute bullshit. What's it matter if we stayed in the fucking room? We didn't get the chest because there were so many engrams and shit that we had to delete stuff. Wonderful.

Hey, just go through and beat him again, then get the chest. NBD.

To be fair too, you guys were dawdling, and it's really kind of a wee bit 100% your fault. EVERY Raid kicks you back to Orbit five minutes after completion.

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There was even a rumor that if you waited for CE's invisible timer to boot you to the reward screen you had an additional Exotic chance.

Clearly it's my fault for not heeding the invisible, undeclared countdown timer. /s

The Rise of Iron content will dry up fast and so waiting a week to try again isn't a big deal. I've been playing with these guys for years, this gives us something to laugh about and rib on each other over--but at the end of the day, it's bad design and it's just bizarre that people are blaming the players.

It's like people can't resist defending Bungie, for absolutely no reason.

Odd.

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It's definitely weird that raids have an invisible countdown. Bad design even, sure, though this is the only instance where it has ever mattered.

But you're acting like this was a one-off enormous surprise when actually it's a continuation of a previously established pattern. That's why people aren't as outraged as you want them to be. Not because of any "Bungie can do no wrong" sentiment.

More than anything I just find it quite funny. Schadenfreude I guess.

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I agree that Destiny can be player-hostile (or at least time-hostile, which is almost but not quite the same) but I really dont think this is an example of it. It's a long timer man. And you were what, running around picking up greens instead of doing what you went in there for?

*shrug*

My first thoughts reading this. When we did the same raid with the same goal last night, the quest chest was THE FIRST thing we did. Then we ate our greens.

That said, a simple viable timer wouldn't hurt either.

Clearly it's my fault for not heeding the invisible, undeclared countdown timer. /s

On the bright side, you guys have made my (and Sammy's) morning. Silver lining, yeh?

The Rise of Iron content will dry up fast and so waiting a week to try again isn't a big deal. I've been playing with these guys for years, this gives us something to laugh about and rib on each other over--but at the end of the day, it's bad design and it's just bizarre that people are blaming the players.

Except it's totally the players' fault. Waddling around instead of doing what you set out to do at the end of the raid? Your fault. Every single raid ever has done this. Heck, most of the time we wish it would do it sooner, so we can see the postgame results. Getting sent to orbit after five minutes is no grand surprise.

It's like people can't resist defending Bungie, for absolutely no reason.

Nah, dumb actions deserve dumb consequences.

Odd.

The continuing adventures of Common Sense, and his sidekick, Established Precedent!

It's definitely weird that raids have an invisible countdown. Bad design even, sure, though this is the only instance where it has ever mattered.

But you're acting like this was a one-off enormous surprise when actually it's a continuation of a previously established pattern. That's why people aren't as outraged as you want them to be. Not because of any "Bungie can do no wrong" sentiment.

More than anything I just find it quite funny. Schadenfreude I guess.

"Who's defending Bungie?"

someotherguy proceeds to try to justify this not being Bungie's fault

I find this quite funny.

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Clearly it's my fault for not heeding the invisible, undeclared countdown timer. /s

On the bright side, you guys have made my (and Sammy's) morning. Silver lining, yeh?

The Rise of Iron content will dry up fast and so waiting a week to try again isn't a big deal. I've been playing with these guys for years, this gives us something to laugh about and rib on each other over--but at the end of the day, it's bad design and it's just bizarre that people are blaming the players.

Except it's totally the players' fault. Waddling around instead of doing what you set out to do at the end of the raid? Your fault. Every single raid ever has done this. Heck, most of the time we wish it would do it sooner, so we can see the postgame results. Getting sent to orbit after five minutes is no grand surprise.

It's like people can't resist defending Bungie, for absolutely no reason.

Nah, dumb actions deserve dumb consequences.

Odd.

The continuing adventures of Common Sense, and his sidekick, Established Precedent!

Waddling! Haha, <3 u Korny.

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This is absolutely your fault.

It's also bad design.

Why not both?

It looked like it had potential to turn into the old religion argument, so I had to go all in.

I dont like to make outright empirical claims either way without proof. But if you'll take my word for it, it's 5 minutes.

The continuing adventures of Common Sense, and his sidekick, Established Precedent!

Is this a thing now? Please can it be a thing now.

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Presumably some kind of warning would be ideal. Which I cant really argue with.

You know, so people would know to stop faffing around.

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Except it's totally the players' fault. Waddling around instead of doing what you set out to do at the end of the raid? Your fault. Every single raid ever has done this. Heck, most of the time we wish it would do it sooner, so we can see the postgame results. Getting sent to orbit after five minutes is no grand surprise.

So now it's all business huh? Whatever happened to taking your time? Smelling the roses? Enjoying yourself? Taken it at your own pace?

I have encountered the post game screen in the raid once. It's very easy to forget that it's a thing. Have a little empathy.

Presumably some kind of warning would be ideal. Which I cant really argue with.

You know, so people would know to stop faffing around.

Yes. Every other activity has a timer on completion. The rules have been established. So no timer would seem to indicate no return to orbit. To return you to orbit without a timer breaks the rules, and really is bad design.

On the one hand, rowboat's video is heartbreaking - the 10 seconds of screwing around at the beginning literally makes the difference between opening the chest and not, and my heart goes out to the folks who were playing.

On the other hand, there IS a timer, there always HAS been a timer (though it's not always known how long it is, because someone has to actually time it, and nobody really cares, and it changes every raid), so while it's true that not warning the player (who, differently from all raids before, might be doing something other than dancing at the end of the regular raid) that the timer is coming to an end, it IS their fault for missing the chest; there WAS plenty of time, they simply wasted a bunch of it.

Seems to me, in this case, that an easy solution would have been to turn off the timer when the locked door was opened. You've stepped away from the raid at that point - why should you be subject to the raid timer any more? (You're exploring, at that stage. As though you were on Patrol.)

Would still screw people who were 7l seconds SLOWER than this team (7 seconds slower, and they'd have hit the timer before they unlocked the door)... but that's more justifiable, at least in my head.

Or maybe I'm just overthinking it - there's nothing behind the door except the chest, so it's fine the way it is. I guess.

And now we all know, which is cool, so (probably) nobody from around here will make this mistake again. :)

To reply to your other post, no one was running around picking up greens. Those are worthless. We had run into so many engrams during the encounter that all of our armor and weapon slots were filled, and some were worried about their postmasters being full. We weren't all able to pick up the engrams and drops from defeating the boss, so those needed to be cleared out and some things moved around. Additionally, we didn't know there would be a quest waiting for us in the last chest, and there were fears that whatever items might be in there would be lost if the postmaster and such were full and no slots were open on the characters themselves.

With regards to this always being the thing, I genuinely did not know that. Is this situation hilarious? Yes. Is it enraging? Damn right. I've beaten every one of these Raids, and I've stuck around to explore. I've never been kicked back to lobby. That's because Bungie never has anything around after you beat the things, and we've always returned to orbit ourselves after initial exploration. This time we were making sure our stuff was in order before going to a new chest we hadn't done before, and we got screwed due to absolutely piss poor game design mechanics. No warning, no heads up, etc.

So, is this somehow partially our fault? Absolutely. I don't think any of us knew that there was some sort of bullshit time limit to sticking around in the Raid after you beat it. We were baffled. I was party lead, and for a moment I was wondering if I somehow held Y instead of X when trying to open the chest and somehow took us to space. It was very, very confusing. This doesn't absolve Bungie from their bullshit regardless of my acknowledgment of my group's culpability in this nonsense.

For real! We definitely were laughing about it, and then raging, and then laughing. And then beating up on people in Iron Banner to take the rage out. It's a thing. Not to mention bathroom breaks, but that's whatever. One of those "The More You Know" stars flying back through the universe, but still not very amusing while being amusing. Very lame.

Yes. Every other activity has a timer on completion.

Every activity including raids. it's just not displayed onscreen.

The rules have been established.

And those rules are:

• All non-raid activities have visible completion timers
  
• Raids have a hidden completion timer

So no timer would seem to indicate no return to orbit.

Two years of experience tell us otherwise.

To return you to orbit without a timer breaks the rules, and really is bad design.

No it doesn't. Still bad design, Im just being intentionally difficult. There's really no good reason why Bungie couldn't include a visible timer post-raid.

Still don't think it's "bullshit". Just poorly thought out.

But fair enough on the other fronts.

To reply to your other post, no one was running around picking up greens. Those are worthless. We had run into so many engrams during the encounter that all of our armor and weapon slots were filled, and some were worried about their postmasters being full. We weren't all able to pick up the engrams and drops from defeating the boss, so those needed to be cleared out and some things moved around. Additionally, we didn't know there would be a quest waiting for us in the last chest, and there were fears that whatever items might be in there would be lost if the postmaster and such were full and no slots were open on the characters themselves.

It's extremely unlikely that that would happen. Items already at the postmaster might get pushed out, but it's first in first out. The time to think about this isn't after killing the final raid boss, which is why it's routine for people to make tower runs during breaks in the raid. This quest is a bit different in that the person who unlocks it does has to stay in the raid until completion--at least that's how it was explained to me.

Also, although I'm sorry it happened to you, the "Bungie not respecting your time" rhetoric is over the top.
This really is different from other issues where that statement might apply. Bungie giving us five minutes to dick around in the final raid room I've always seen as a generosity on their part, and the fact that you didn't know about it is says something about how non-consequential it's been.

Also, although I'm sorry it happened to you, the "Bungie not respecting your time" rhetoric is over the top.
This really is different from other issues where that statement might apply. Bungie giving us five minutes to dick around in the final raid room I've always seen as a generosity on their part, and the fact that you didn't know about it is says something about how non-consequential it's been.

It's quite clearly not over the top then and adds to the whole. The statement was made based on Bungie's continued and overall lack of respect for the player's time. How about skeleton keys with non-existent drop rates for strike chests that never used to be a thing? But hey, if I start a list now, from day 1 to year 3, it'll be way too long. It's the same lack of respect that has been there for years. Add this one to the list, regardless of how "inconsequential" it may be in this particular instance.

Also, "five minutes to dick around" in a Raid room when all previous versions had nothing after you beat it doesn't matter. There's something there now. Time for a design mechanic change. Oh well. Short-sighted on their part.

Also, although I'm sorry it happened to you, the "Bungie not respecting your time" rhetoric is over the top.
This really is different from other issues where that statement might apply. Bungie giving us five minutes to dick around in the final raid room I've always seen as a generosity on their part, and the fact that you didn't know about it is says something about how non-consequential it's been.

It's quite clearly not over the top then and adds to the whole. The statement was made based on Bungie's continued and overall lack of respect for the player's time. How about skeleton keys with non-existent drop rates for strike chests that never used to be a thing? But hey, if I start a list now, from day 1 to year 3, it'll be way too long. It's the same lack of respect that has been there for years. Add this one to the list, regardless of how "inconsequential" it may be in this particular instance.

Also, "five minutes to dick around" in a Raid room when all previous versions had nothing after you beat it doesn't matter. There's something there now. Time for a design mechanic change. Oh well. Short-sighted on their part.

We'll have to agree to disagree. This event is not like those other things. The five-minute timer is in no way intended to be any kind of gate.

Destiny Item Manager (DIM) has a "Farming Mode" that automatically detects picked-up engrams and send them to the Vault, with the very intent of keeping the Postmaster clear. Highly recommend that when farming Archon's Forge and when running WotM.

Dunno about the other 3rd-party item managers, but I expect most of them to have it within one or two updates.

It's not quite as efficient, as it only fills your Vault I believe, not your other characters. But better than nothing.

All this assumes your vault and other places aren't already full. :p

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You can dump all your engrams (with the option to filter out Exotics) from any character+Vault to any particular character, as well as an "Item Leveling" option. In their words:

This loadout finds items for you to dump XP into. It strongly favors locked items, and won't replace an incomplete item that you have equipped. Otherwise, it goes after items that already have the most XP (closest to completion), preferring exotics and legendaries if they are locked, and rares and legendaries if they're not locked (because you get more materials out of disassembling them that way).

This way, you could faster-than-usual check which weapons you still haven't really tried out fully leveled so you can decide to dump them or keep them. Should take the better part of an afternoon, though...

There are a heck of a lot of guns I've never used. Mostly ARs. They're... Not great.

How about skeleton keys with non-existent drop rates for strike chests that never used to be a thing?

How about we dial back the hyperbole?

12 days ago, Chappy posted a guide to getting high-level artifacts, and one of the points in it was "save your Skeleton keys until you've got at least a 365 Artifact". I read that post the next day, and started saving my Skeleton keys. I currently have 8 - in 11 days. (10, since I haven't played today.) That's almost 1 per day.

I'll definitely agree that it's a LOW rate - but 'non-existent' is hyperbolic, and weakens the rest of your argument (since it's hard to read when my eyes are rolling).

(Yes, I looked up the post to find out how long ago it was. And yes, I had to count up my keys.)

Too bad I have zero skeleton keys and have only gotten two ever. I'm glad your RNG is working better for you, though! :D

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Yeah Claude are you sure you have skeleton keys and not splicer keys?

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Yeah Claude are you sure you have skeleton keys and not splicer keys?

Sure. I have 5 Skeleton keys in my vault, plus one on each character. (Well, I actually spent 2 last night, so I only have one on my Warlock... but I HAD one on each character last night.)

Splicer keys - 3 on Warlock, 4 on Hunter, 8 on Titan. (Plus everyone's got a Splicer Intel Relay.)

Well, high *to me* anyway.

Yeah Claude are you sure you have skeleton keys and not splicer keys?

Sure. I have 5 Skeleton keys in my vault, plus one on each character. (Well, I actually spent 2 last night, so I only have one on my Warlock... but I HAD one on each character last night.)

Splicer keys - 3 on Warlock, 4 on Hunter, 8 on Titan. (Plus everyone's got a Splicer Intel Relay.)

I've gotten exactly 1. Granted, I have only played ~1.5 of my 3 characters (finished the story on 2 of them, played a bunch more on just one), but STILL....ONE SKELETON KEY.

By contrast, I've got 20 Splicer Keys and 2 Intel Relays.

Yeah Claude are you sure you have skeleton keys and not splicer keys?

Sure. I have 5 Skeleton keys in my vault, plus one on each character. (Well, I actually spent 2 last night, so I only have one on my Warlock... but I HAD one on each character last night.)

Splicer keys - 3 on Warlock, 4 on Hunter, 8 on Titan. (Plus everyone's got a Splicer Intel Relay.)

For all my strike grinding, I have gotten ONE skeleton key in addition to the one you get form beating Sepiks perfected the first time.

You are really lucky, or I'm super unlucky.

For all my strike grinding, I have gotten ONE skeleton key in addition to the one you get form beating Sepiks perfected the first time.

You are really lucky, or I'm super unlucky.

Ah! Good call. So I've actually only gotten one aside from the "gimme" for beating the boss the first go. Yeah. Hyperbole or not, I'm sticking with non-existent.

Well, high *to me* anyway.

Yeah Claude are you sure you have skeleton keys and not splicer keys?

Sure. I have 5 Skeleton keys in my vault, plus one on each character. (Well, I actually spent 2 last night, so I only have one on my Warlock... but I HAD one on each character last night.)

Splicer keys - 3 on Warlock, 4 on Hunter, 8 on Titan. (Plus everyone's got a Splicer Intel Relay.)

I've gotten exactly 1. Granted, I have only played ~1.5 of my 3 characters (finished the story on 2 of them, played a bunch more on just one), but STILL....ONE SKELETON KEY.

By contrast, I've got 20 Splicer Keys and 2 Intel Relays.

Again - i've played more hours than most people here. (unoudid is exempt from that estimation.) I've got something like 100 hours into RoI. I've spent... um, 5 keys? So a total of 11? So it's really a key per 10 hours of play, or so.

Well, high *to me* anyway.

Yeah Claude are you sure you have skeleton keys and not splicer keys?

Sure. I have 5 Skeleton keys in my vault, plus one on each character. (Well, I actually spent 2 last night, so I only have one on my Warlock... but I HAD one on each character last night.)

Splicer keys - 3 on Warlock, 4 on Hunter, 8 on Titan. (Plus everyone's got a Splicer Intel Relay.)

I've gotten exactly 1. Granted, I have only played ~1.5 of my 3 characters (finished the story on 2 of them, played a bunch more on just one), but STILL....ONE SKELETON KEY.

By contrast, I've got 20 Splicer Keys and 2 Intel Relays.

Again - i've played more hours than most people here. (unoudid is exempt from that estimation.) I've got something like 100 hours into RoI. I've spent... um, 5 keys? So a total of 11? So it's really a key per 10 hours of play, or so.

That's in line with what the streamers say. Another pro tip: play the 320 light playlist.

Well, high *to me* anyway.

Yeah Claude are you sure you have skeleton keys and not splicer keys?

Sure. I have 5 Skeleton keys in my vault, plus one on each character. (Well, I actually spent 2 last night, so I only have one on my Warlock... but I HAD one on each character last night.)

Splicer keys - 3 on Warlock, 4 on Hunter, 8 on Titan. (Plus everyone's got a Splicer Intel Relay.)

I've gotten exactly 1. Granted, I have only played ~1.5 of my 3 characters (finished the story on 2 of them, played a bunch more on just one), but STILL....ONE SKELETON KEY.

By contrast, I've got 20 Splicer Keys and 2 Intel Relays.

Again - i've played more hours than most people here. (unoudid is exempt from that estimation.) I've got something like 100 hours into RoI. I've spent... um, 5 keys? So a total of 11? So it's really a key per 10 hours of play, or so.

That's in line with what the streamers say. Another pro tip: play the 320 light playlist.

There's that guy who speedran Draksis in just over 2 minutes... that might be a way...

Now I know why Zero was like "forget the loot, jump down QUICK!"

Protip: Go finish the story on your other characters for another two.

I think Ive only had 3 or 4 drop, but I rarely run strikes (I find them hideously tedious). I'm still 385, mostly thanks to raids and IB. Skeleton keys are not necessary by any means.

As of this morning I'm at 2014 hrs played. You are 1859 hrs.

I haven't done a ton of strikes. But I believe I've had around 4-5 skeleton keys drop so far.

According to Days with Destiny, you've played about 85 hours since RoI dropped. So yeah, drop rate is lower for you.

Sounds like (for the first time since Destiny launched, maybe) my RNG luck is better than most people's, when it comes to Skeleton keys!

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That really sucks. I'm sorry it happened to you.

Psst you should buy Elite.

I rematched the video and he actually says he was getting a key every 9 or 10 strikes from 350 heroic strikes.

Here's the vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrSJrQWObRU

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I know that sigh. It was Zero and he was one table over! For some reason in my dream he looked like a fat Gilbert Gottfried with an Amish beard. No idea what he really looks like, but that's what my subconscious says. The waitress hadn't gotten him the right kind of rap album he ordered.

I know that sigh. It was Zero and he was one table over! For some reason in my dream he looked like a fat Gilbert Gottfried with an Amish beard.

Headcanon Zero. True until proven otherwise (no nudes!).

If this isn't obvious, my mind is blown.

If this isn't obvious, my mind is blown.

Teams beating a raid for the first time would be confused as to whether or not that was the final encounter. Not being taken to orbit after a long while would imply that there is something more that they are missing.
How many teams started looking around for an extra chest on Atheon before they were sent to orbit? The "rules" (according to Cody) of the raid so far have been that once a boss is defeated, you figure out the next step of the raid. The other established rule of the game is that once you have entirely completed a mission, you are sent to Orbit. Outside of the Outbreak Prime chest (which takes seconds to get to and from, and which contains no items that take up Inventory space at all), there have so far been zero instances of anything to do or see after the death of the final raid boss, so the five minute timer has been ridiculously generous. Want to explore a single room? Five minutes should be way more than enough.

The game does have invisible timers, though (duration of Swords of Crota, Wolves, Taken forces), so it's not entirely unheard of. The invisible timer is poor design, but taking you to orbit is not (however, it could be improved IF you had a way to delay/cancel the Return to Orbit, or if you could accelerate the timer).

Everything aside, this is far too much discussion over a single, isolated case of people doing dumb stuff and being surprised by the consequences of their dumb actions. I say they all deserved it (except you Rowboat and Wilshire, you two kind of just got caught in the crossfire), and it was a hilarious and facepalm-inducing experience for the rest of us. MotW right there.

Teams beating a raid for the first time would be confused as to whether or not that was the final encounter. Not being taken to orbit after a long while would imply that there is something more that they are missing.

A big banner that pops up saying mission complete leaves no room for confusion.

Teams beating a raid for the first time would be confused as to whether or not that was the final encounter. Not being taken to orbit after a long while would imply that there is something more that they are missing.

A big banner that pops up saying mission complete leaves no room for confusion.

And how many times does that pop up without the game automatically taking you to orbit?

Again, the issue is with the lack of visible timer. If players don't see that, they're going to assume that there is something more to do, when there isn't. However, three raids in a row should have taught players that after a period of time, they're sent to orbit. Any group that has wanted to "explore" should have learned that by now. Any group that hasn't learned that likely never stays longer than a minute or two after completion, so it's irrelevant for them.

I do think that opening the last door should delay the timer by a minute, at least, because the end of the raid is slightly different this time around (the Outbreak Prime quest is really something that happens in tangent with the raid, but is not 100% part of the raid itself, so it should have been given a bit of leeway as far as end-of-mission behavior is concerned). But the behavior of Pete's group was something abnormal as well, and not something that Bungie should be inclined to cater to...

Teams beating a raid for the first time would be confused as to whether or not that was the final encounter. Not being taken to orbit after a long while would imply that there is something more that they are missing.

A big banner that pops up saying mission complete leaves no room for confusion.

And how many times does that pop up without the game automatically taking you to orbit?

Again, the issue is with the lack of visible timer. If players don't see that, they're going to assume that there is something more to do, when there isn't. However, three raids in a row should have taught players that after a period of time, they're sent to orbit.

Many people do not even know you are sent to orbit. Many people have never waited around long enough to be kicked to Orbit. I didn't even know this until someone told me during Crota flawless (so we could see the stat screen).

So imagine being a player like that, then playing this raid with no indication they are mistaken.

So no. It's not a good at teaching players. They do not have to cater to anyone. Only make sure the rules are established clearly.

Bad. Design.

Teams beating a raid for the first time would be confused as to whether or not that was the final encounter. Not being taken to orbit after a long while would imply that there is something more that they are missing.

A big banner that pops up saying mission complete leaves no room for confusion.

And how many times does that pop up without the game automatically taking you to orbit?

Again, the issue is with the lack of visible timer. If players don't see that, they're going to assume that there is something more to do, when there isn't. However, three raids in a row should have taught players that after a period of time, they're sent to orbit.

Many people do not even know you are sent to orbit. Many people have never waited around long enough to be kicked to Orbit. I didn't even know this until someone told me during Crota flawless (so we could see the stat screen).

So imagine being a player like that, then playing this raid with no indication they are mistaken.

So no. It's not a good at teaching players. They do not have to cater to anyone. Only make sure the rules are established clearly.

Bad. Design.

So clearly you agree with what I said, that taking you to orbit is not bad design, but rather that they don't hold your hand and draw it out with crayon that 'yes, once again you will be taken to orbit' is bad design. Good to know.

The very first time that we beat Vault of Glass, we were looking at and comparing loot, and I can't remember what happened, but someone asked if we would get a postgame screen, and someone said that we did, but we had to wait it out, so apparently it wasn't that much of a revelation if it was already known of that early.

I thought you were one of those kids that watch streamers and crap. That somehow this basic information eluded you for so long is the only surprising thing here.

I know that sigh. It was Zero and he was one table over! For some reason in my dream he looked like a fat Gilbert Gottfried with an Amish beard.

Headcanon Zero. True until proven otherwise (no nudes!).

My headcannon Zero is an old guy who sits on his front porch in Florida and yells obscenities at passing teenagers.

I know that sigh. It was Zero and he was one table over! For some reason in my dream he looked like a fat Gilbert Gottfried with an Amish beard.

Headcanon Zero. True until proven otherwise (no nudes!).

My headcannon Zero is an old guy who sits on his front porch in Florida and yells obscenities at passing teenagers.

Well, you got the Florida and yelling at teenagers part right. But I am not old, nor do we have a porch. I live in a basement suite in BC on a mountain or a foothill as the locals call it. Either way they deserved it, somehow. They always do.

I'm > > > > > Teams beating a raid for the first time would be confused as to whether or not that was the final encounter. Not being taken to orbit after a long while would imply that there is something more that they are missing.

A big banner that pops up saying mission complete leaves no room for confusion.

And how many times does that pop up without the game automatically taking you to orbit?

Again, the issue is with the lack of visible timer. If players don't see that, they're going to assume that there is something more to do, when there isn't. However, three raids in a row should have taught players that after a period of time, they're sent to orbit.

Many people do not even know you are sent to orbit. Many people have never waited around long enough to be kicked to Orbit. I didn't even know this until someone told me during Crota flawless (so we could see the stat screen).

So imagine being a player like that, then playing this raid with no indication they are mistaken.

So no. It's not a good at teaching players. They do not have to cater to anyone. Only make sure the rules are established clearly.

Bad. Design.

So clearly you agree with what I said, that taking you to orbit is not bad design, but rather that they don't hold your hand and draw it out with crayon that 'yes, once again you will be taken to orbit' is bad design. Good to know.

The very first time that we beat Vault of Glass, we were looking at and comparing loot, and I can't remember what happened, but someone asked if we would get a postgame screen, and someone said that we did, but we had to wait it out, so apparently it wasn't that much of a revelation if it was already known of that early.

I thought you were one of those kids that watch streamers and crap. That somehow this basic information eluded you for so long is the only surprising thing here.

Man, I was typing up a reply but I had misread your handle as Kermit. Almost had me there.

I was like, dang, Kermit calling Cody a kid--what is happening here. Quality posting from DBO's latest admin.

I'm > > > > > Teams beating a raid for the first time would be confused as to whether or not that was the final encounter. Not being taken to orbit after a long while would imply that there is something more that they are missing.

A big banner that pops up saying mission complete leaves no room for confusion.

And how many times does that pop up without the game automatically taking you to orbit?

Again, the issue is with the lack of visible timer. If players don't see that, they're going to assume that there is something more to do, when there isn't. However, three raids in a row should have taught players that after a period of time, they're sent to orbit.

Many people do not even know you are sent to orbit. Many people have never waited around long enough to be kicked to Orbit. I didn't even know this until someone told me during Crota flawless (so we could see the stat screen).

So imagine being a player like that, then playing this raid with no indication they are mistaken.

So no. It's not a good at teaching players. They do not have to cater to anyone. Only make sure the rules are established clearly.

Bad. Design.

So clearly you agree with what I said, that taking you to orbit is not bad design, but rather that they don't hold your hand and draw it out with crayon that 'yes, once again you will be taken to orbit' is bad design. Good to know.

The very first time that we beat Vault of Glass, we were looking at and comparing loot, and I can't remember what happened, but someone asked if we would get a postgame screen, and someone said that we did, but we had to wait it out, so apparently it wasn't that much of a revelation if it was already known of that early.

I thought you were one of those kids that watch streamers and crap. That somehow this basic information eluded you for so long is the only surprising thing here.

Man, I was typing up a reply but I had misread your handle as Kermit. Almost had me there.

I was like, dang, Kermit calling Cody a kid--what is happening here. Quality posting from DBO's latest admin.

I probably have called Cody a kid at some point. When you as old as me, you find yourself doing that.

I know that sigh. It was Zero and he was one table over! For some reason in my dream he looked like a fat Gilbert Gottfried with an Amish beard.

Headcanon Zero. True until proven otherwise (no nudes!).

My headcannon Zero is an old guy who sits on his front porch in Florida and yells obscenities at passing teenagers.

See, I'm the opposite...
MY headcannon Zero is a teenager (ok, 20-something) who sits on a bench in Leisure World yelling obscenities at passing old guys.

I still find your trolling hilarious, so please don't stop. No sarcasm.

But in all seriousness, you seem to be confusing causality with responsibility. It's already been admitted to that we're culpable and at fault in some regard for taking time and so on and so forth. It's also been stated that none of us knew it would kick us to orbit without warning since it's never happened to any of us before. This is a group who has played "catch the person with the chalice" on numerous occasions after beating Crota for minutes and minutes on end without ever being kicked to space. And this very forum can't decide if it's a 5 minute orbit-kick timer or not or if it varies. Bungie's bad design is their responsibility, regardless of if we caused our own kick back to orbit by screwing around for 10 seconds too long as a direct result of their bad design and not being properly informed from it. Either way, lessons were learned and we won't be doing that again!

The question is, will Bungie learn from their mistakes? And as has been stated elsewhere, this is but one small one in a very large list of many! Also, Korny, real talk, you gonna Destiny on Xbox One or what? That offer is still there to get you Rise of Iron for it. Then you can direct-troll in person, which I also find hilarious. :D

What's that? A buddy had me pick up Rocket League a bit ago, and I have yet to play it. I hear it's super fun. Do you have that game?

I'm not sure where you got the idea I watch streamers. I haven't watched people play video games since Brood War was phased out of KESPA.

There is a lot that I find obvious when it comes to games that others don't. Also in reverse. You can demean me all you want for that, but I'm not going to feel bad or change my stance here.

What's that? A buddy had me pick up Rocket League a bit ago, and I have yet to play it. I hear it's super fun. Do you have that game?

Elite: Dangerous. You fly around in space and do things of a space-y nature. It's in the same vein of Wing Commander: Privateer. Many have said it's a grown up version of No Man's Sky (which thanks to that Elite had a huge influx of new people).

I've hear nothing but good things about Rocket League. Something about cars and running around and soccer? I have no idea really haha.