I think everyone who's been in the supremacy list is a bit sick of shotguns. Much like snipers in 3v3 modes, Shotguns are the go to weapon that crowds out everything else. The mobility is such that I can't even charge a mid impact FR before a Jugg titan can get close enough with a matador or PC+1 to one shot me.

The thing is, I like shotguns, and I don't want to go back to the days of the Halo shotgun that doesn't work past 4 feet.

I was thinking if Bungie just made two changes, it would probably fix most of my issues.

1. Invert Impact/Range.

The Matador, PC+1, CT-D, all have high impact and high range. Stability is unneeded. Fire rate is unneeded. Reload speed is a non-factor. People never use low range, low impact shotguns because those always lose in a PVP match up with this archetype in all situations. In PVE, people still mostly only use high impact shotguns as there doesn't seem to be a benefit to the low impact ones.

To fix this, Bungie should make high impact go with low range, and vice versa. Thus a low impact shotgun would have some use at longer ranges in PVP, and is less of a risk in PVE.

2. Make Stability Great Again

Stability on shotguns is a dump stat. No one cares about it. A heavy PVP friend of mine suggested making stability shrink the pellet cone of a shotgun. More Stability therefore would make the odds of a OHK more likely. A low stability, high rof, low impact shotgun would feel very different from a high stability, high impact gun. Now, much like FRs, you have a meaningful tradeoff in perks.

Anyway, this is just a rant since I've been in clash matches with FRs and Sidearms trying to complete my Thorn quest (again).

Also, increase effectiveness of all primaries back to Y1 levels. Dedicated low-range primaries make no sense in shotgun land.

Low Impact Shotguns still very much have a place in PvE though. I finally got my Full Auto IB shotgun (with increased ammo capacity of 7, no less!) and it's glorious. Rips yellow bars to pieces.

Wouldn't say no to a range increase, of course. Currently I have to give Scorch Captains a colonoscopy to do any damage with it.

That one is also a beast in the crucible with full auto. You can destroy supers with it.

For when you run out of ammo after 2 kills.

I guess if you primarily use your primary though (imagine!) and use it as a "Nope" button, that could work.

Tie the visible recoil on shotguns to the Impact stat, replace stability with shot grouping, and ensure that the lower impact-higher range archetype has a reliable rate of fire and I think that you do a lot to fix shotguns. Basically, the OHK range should be just beyond melee range (warlock melee not necessarily withstanding) but a two shot should be practical and reliable farther past that. It gives people more time to react if it takes .5-.9 seconds to two shot someone, but still keeps shotguns powerful in their identified range. Just make sure that the most reliable two shot is at .9 seconds and the faster rates require landing more pellets, so their three shot is 1 second.

Obviously untested numbers, but I think the concept is clear. Shotguns should destroy up close, but not at the ranges they can now, but they stay very dangerous and highly effective with supporting team shooting.

I suspect that part of the range problem for shotguns is lag compensation. Longer range means less noticeable lag problems. Unfortunately you also get "extended range" once players get comfortable with their own lag situations in some cases.

For me, nothing is more frustrating than a OHK from 15+ yards away from a shotgun. Which in random PvP isn't so much a problem, but pretty much once a week I'm seeing that stuff during a trials run. Not pervasive, but definitely out there and reasonably common for the more competitive players.

For me, nothing is more frustrating than a OHK from 15+ yards away from a warlock melee. Which in random PvP isn't so much a problem, but pretty much once a week I'm seeing that stuff during a trials run. Not pervasive, but definitely out there and reasonably common for the more competitive players.

FTFY. ;-)

YMMV, but I tore through the PvP part of the quest with it.

Surprisingly you can get more kills with it than you think. I got several one shot kills and it only takes 2 for anything else maybe 3 if you are trying to take out a super. The last day of Iron Banner the special ammo boxes started giving 5 rounds instead of 3, which helped bring it up a bit.

Did you change your armour perks?

I can neither confirm nor deny this as I didnt think about it. But I am sure it happened on 2 characters. and only on that one day, and I havent changed any perks or gear lately really.

I could totally be wrong though.

I find it even weirder that my Low-RoF, High- Impact shotgun gets more ammo per box than my Low-Impact, High-RoF one.

Silly bongle.

Except the first mythoclast nerf and the HOW shotgun buff.

They need a public area where they can make changes to weapons and see what happens. Similar to Hearthstone's Tavern Brawls. What if all shotguns maxed out at 150 damage? What if sidearms had explosive rounds? What if there was no flinch in the game? Or no shields? Or you could switch weapons on the death screen without losing ammo? Or no heavy weapons at all? Or no sprint?

After two + years, Destiny PvPers are sophisticated and knowledgeable. The *worst* dedicated PvPer (me, probably) will still mop the floor with a casual PvEer. Regularly changing the meta would help to even the playing field, or at least make it not quite so uneven.

Furthermore, it would provide data to Bungie about what guns or strategies are OP and what ones are UP. Which would help them with the (I know, I'm pissing into the wind) weekly balance updates to the entire PvP game that they really, really, really should be doing.

The game we have right now greatly favors shotguns. Which is why people are less aggressive in 6s and use longer range primaries. We can wish and wish and wish for a better pvp environment, but Bungie has shown time and again that they really don't give two shits about that. It's saddening, because I think of what could have been, but we can only play the game we have, not the one we want.

I think part of the issue is the three weapon system. I say go back to 2 weapon slots. We rarely get to use heavies at all in PvP and we over use specials. Combine special and heavies, put the ammo drop time in the middle of the two, and keep the special box locations. This way we will have more access to fun heavies, reduce the role of the primary shotty/sniper.

I think this would ruin the power dynamic of Destiny though. If you slot heavies with Specials in one ammo pool you have to rebalance 7 weapon classes (and many archetypes) to fit them together, and the overall power curve would either nerf the Heavies into nothing (or barely useable due to limited ammo) or make people even angrier at the Special Meta.

I don't think the problem has ever been the three weapon system. I don't think the proper balance has been made within the tiers themselves relative to the others, but that has more to do with balancing the different weapon classes and their archetypes. I would love custom games to try some things out, but I don't think the core game would benefit from limiting and isolating the sandbox.

I'd like to see a primaries only playlist (no Universal Remote or No Land Beyond) personally. I just feel like that would be a better way of solving the current issues with little work. I'd even been fine with a more strict version of Inferno where secondaries and supers are shut off as well.

I wonder how it would feel if you switched off precision damage for shotguns. Maybe that would draw in their odd feeling long ranged kills while still keeping them sufficiently powerful up close?

I wonder how it would feel if you switched off precision damage for shotguns. Maybe that would draw in their odd feeling long ranged kills while still keeping them sufficiently powerful up close?

I'm still getting OHKs that are not headshots with my Matador 64 at crazy ranges

Was about Destiny's special ammo economy vs. Halo's power weapons, and how much PvP suffered for that difference.

I know obviously Bungie want to get away from that comparison and do something new. But Halo PvP had better map flow, a more interesting tug-of-war over power weapons, and was just generally... Better.

Before 343i got their hands on it, at least.

I can't count the number of times I've shot someone square in the chest with a shotgun, only to seemingly miss and do fractional damage. Or even stranger (but rarer) the times where I've definitely missed, but still got the kill.

Last week's Trials I got a great kill by shooting a guy who wasn't even on my screen, somehow.

But then, sometimes the stars align and every pellet goes exactly where you want it and you get a kill from almost outside Handcannon range. Shotguns are dumb.

Wrap your brain around that fact for a minute.

Furthermore, Halo's maps largely featured long, uninterrupted sight lines through the middle of the maps with tight corridors and narrow views around the outsides. This meant a sniper could control movement through the open space from an elevated position while still being susceptible to flanking maneuvers. In Destiny, there are precious few elevated sniper positions (maybe the water tank in Rusted Lands or the raised platforms behind C spawn on Shores of Time?) and not a single map has an open middle. Snipers are limited to scoping hallways and doorways, hoping for a target in a very narrow field of view. Since every Destiny map is basically the same destiny map in terms of lines of sight, narrowness of corridors, and level of elevation, the whole game revolves around shotguns, as they excel in those spaces. The placement of capture points

Want to play a totally different game? Take Skyshock and move the A and C capture points out to the beach. That would be a totally different game.

Destiny, for all of its maps, still hasn't had a single one that encouraged play to adapt to the location.

A rotation of more "Competitive" playlists would be great. Dedicated weapons or other odd ideas that cut out variables (Legendary Swords FFA w/ infinite ammo; Matador-Only Zone Control; The Last Word Inferno Skirmish with unleveled Subclasses) as well as lists that are curated, which I think is most important for what most people want out of competition. Like honor-ruled "Vendor Rolls Only" or what not. Obviously, this suggestion means that no one can use their own gear. But people are clamorong for more level playing fields to just compare map, gun, and movement skill.

I know obviously Bungie want to get away from that comparison and do something new. But Halo PvP had better map flow, a more interesting tug-of-war over power weapons, and was just generally... Better.

Frankly, I'll just straight up disagree with all of this. I played nothing but Halo for 10 years, never thought I'd like anything more. Then I played Destiny and it blew my mind. I'm not really happy with the changes they have been making to skew it back in a Halo direction.

An easy way around this would be to have pre-set Crucible weapons. You'd have the weapons, and you'd have sub-archetypes, but they would be the only things you could use, guns-wise. Balance could be applied to these controlled elements.

Which I think is the main flaw with using Destiny to PVP.

Because of character customization, and how PVP games are balanced, all those little changes add up. Eventually, it gets to the point I have no idea what an enemy is capable of.

An example: I see a Titan with a shotgun out, running around. I dont know what his stats are, what his perks are, even what his subclass is. I cant even be sure his weapon is a good roll among that weapon type. Sure, it could be a Matador, but it could be a shit Matador or a good one.

If I play Overwatch, I know exactly what I'm dealing with. This character has THIS much health, THESE abilites and THIS effective a gun.

Without a dozen perks, upgrade nodes, etc. balance is much more streamlined. Nerfing one particular element doesnt necessarily just ream an entire spectrum of abilities and tools.

An example: I see a Titan with a shotgun out, running around. I dont know what his stats are, what his perks are, even what his subclass is. I cant even be sure his weapon is a good roll among that weapon type. Sure, it could be a Matador, but it could be a shit Matador or a good one.

So much this. I know I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again, but weapon names should MEAN something. A new-ish player thinks, "Oh, sweet! I got a Matador! Everyone's been killing me with this gun, now I can pwn too! (later) Ugh, why is everyone else so much better with this gun than me? oh... it doesn't have all the range perks!"

If Bungie is absolutely in love with random rolls then the perks should be reflected in the gun name, "Matador 64-ASRK" (Accurized Ballistics, Shot Package, Reinforce Barrel, Kneepads). As it stands right now there are a possible 7776 different rolls for a Matador 64, a couple of which are a 'god roll'. Also, each roll can be configured 9 different ways! That's crazy! It completely removes meaning from the weapon name.

I would prefer less randomness, Each weapon would have a handful (4-16?) of different possible rolls and the roll would be appended to the end of the weapon name, so it would be named "Matador 64-G" if you got roll #7. If part of Bungie's design is to have mystery about the opponents loadout then there would still be the question of "which of the 9 possible configurations of roll #7 is that person using?".

Edit: I understand this would destroy the 'carrot on a stick' incentive system Bungie has setup. Even cutting down the # of possible rolls to 64-128 would be hugely helpful, they could change the name to show which roll they got for each column, so "Matador 64-DF" would mean something, the D & F would have meaning too. "Oh, he's got the same possible perks in the 2nd column!"

Yeah, this was most likely lag, but it didn't feel like it. When it happened (Wildthing was playing) we were both like How did that guy die!?

This was right before the shot on a sliding hunter.

Sniper rifles and shotguns were power weapons, unless you played the sniper/shotty variant.

People could control the open field with a BR, Pistol or MR, but that was the extent of the issue. Most of the large open middles were to allow vehicle combat.

In Halo the most common loadout equivalent would be a mid impact AR, HC, or Scout rifle.

Imagine a round of crucible if you only had one green ammo box in the center of the map, and it only dropped one brick period, not a brick per person.

Halo "evolved" (pun intended). Halo 2 added dual wielding, Halo 3 took it out, we had BRs, ARs, Marksman Rifles, etc.

The basic combat theory resolved around close, medium and long range weapons, and power weapons. You were limited in what you could hold, so there would always be a range gap in your loadout that you had to compensate for via positioning and movement.

Over the iterations, some guns were better or worse. The Halo 1 pistol was great close in and at range, for example, and Halo 2 had dual wielded needlers. In fact Halo 2's issue was that dual wielding either forced you to make the weapons half as powerful, or make dual wielding mandatory. Halo 3 tried to add to the sandbox with one handed shotguns, and the brute shot, etc, but they always fit into one of the three range bands.

Destiny does the same thing, but the limitations are different. You never swap weapons in Destiny with dead players or mobs. Your loadout is static. The weapons all fit in the range bands, but you always have two Halo power weapons (special and heavy). In Destiny, you are never forced to operate in a range you dislike because someone else stole the sniper/shotgun/rockets and your stuck with the default AR. That is a big change. This makes Destiny far more about knowing the advantages of your preferred loadout, and your opponents. If anything it makes Destiny far more dependent on the "meta" game.

An example: I see a Titan with a shotgun out, running around. I dont know what his stats are, what his perks are, even what his subclass is. I cant even be sure his weapon is a good roll among that weapon type. Sure, it could be a Matador, but it could be a shit Matador or a good one.

Does it ever make sense to assume they have anything less than the most powerful character and weapon builds possible?

For me, nothing is more frustrating than a OHK from 15+ yards away from a warlock melee. Which in random PvP isn't so much a problem, but pretty much once a week I'm seeing that stuff during a trials run. Not pervasive, but definitely out there and reasonably common for the more competitive players.

FTFY. ;-)

I know obviously Bungie want to get away from that comparison and do something new. But Halo PvP had better map flow, a more interesting tug-of-war over power weapons, and was just generally... Better.

Frankly, I'll just straight up disagree with all of this. I played nothing but Halo for 10 years, never thought I'd like anything more. Then I played Destiny and it blew my mind. I'm not really happy with the changes they have been making to skew it back in a Halo direction.

Yeah. I think except for a few things, PvP at launch was perhaps the best version of the game. It just keeps morphing into something that 'works' but is less interesting. I think this is because a lot of the 'local' imbalances you could exploit are now gone. But that's what made it kind of interesting. If you could, with difficulty, gain these advantages you could really use them.

Because of character customization, and how PVP games are balanced, all those little changes add up. Eventually, it gets to the point I have no idea what an enemy is capable of.

An example: I see a Titan with a shotgun out, running around. I dont know what his stats are, what his perks are, even what his subclass is. I cant even be sure his weapon is a good roll among that weapon type. Sure, it could be a Matador, but it could be a shit Matador or a good one.

If I play Overwatch, I know exactly what I'm dealing with. This character has THIS much health, THESE abilites and THIS effective a gun.

A little mystery is a good thing. You can surprise your enemy and they you. I like that aspect. You can always inspect their gear. We do it before every trials match.

The real problem is that Juggernaut shield. What are your options when you have a Titan sprinting at you with that thing, other than to just die?

An example: I see a Titan with a shotgun out, running around. I dont know what his stats are, what his perks are, even what his subclass is. I cant even be sure his weapon is a good roll among that weapon type. Sure, it could be a Matador, but it could be a shit Matador or a good one.

So much this. I know I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again, but weapon names should MEAN something. A new-ish player thinks, "Oh, sweet! I got a Matador! Everyone's been killing me with this gun, now I can pwn too! (later) Ugh, why is everyone else so much better with this gun than me? oh... it doesn't have all the range perks!"

If Bungie is absolutely in love with random rolls then the perks should be reflected in the gun name, "Matador 64-ASRK" (Accurized Ballistics, Shot Package, Reinforce Barrel, Kneepads). As it stands right now there are a possible 7776 different rolls for a Matador 64, a couple of which are a 'god roll'. Also, each roll can be configured 9 different ways! That's crazy! It completely removes meaning from the weapon name.

I would prefer less randomness, Each weapon would have a handful (4-16?) of different possible rolls and the roll would be appended to the end of the weapon name, so it would be named "Matador 64-G" if you got roll #7. If part of Bungie's design is to have mystery about the opponents loadout then there would still be the question of "which of the 9 possible configurations of roll #7 is that person using?".

Edit: I understand this would destroy the 'carrot on a stick' incentive system Bungie has setup. Even cutting down the # of possible rolls to 64-128 would be hugely helpful, they could change the name to show which roll they got for each column, so "Matador 64-DF" would mean something, the D & F would have meaning too. "Oh, he's got the same possible perks in the 2nd column!"

I've always maintained that destiny's perks are poorly designed. Any perk that straight up makes a stat 'better', is a bad perk. You look at say shotguns, and it's clear that range and impact are the most important stats. So, perks that raise these stats will be sought out, and you can simply do better than without those perks. Hence sought after god rolls. BORING. Didn't they learn anything from Felwinter's Lie?

Perks should not change gun stats at all. They should enable a different type of play. For instance, Icarus, battle runner, etc. These are more interesting type of perks because they do not straight up improve the weapon, but let you play a different way. That is the way that perks should operate.

The real problem is that Juggernaut shield. What are your options when you have a Titan sprinting at you with that thing, other than to just die?

As a Nightstalker I usually roll to the side and chuck a smoke grenade at them. I can usually finish them off while they are slowed with my sidearm. Haven't played enough PvP against them with other subclasses/classes to say what to do for them.

The real problem is that Juggernaut shield. What are your options when you have a Titan sprinting at you with that thing, other than to just die?

You might try:

• Hitting him with Smoke. while (It will end his sprint and shield.)
  
• Jumping or evading.
  
• Ducking around a corner.
  
• Shooting him. (Especially effective with a shotgun in close as the shield goes down the moment they try and aim.)
  
• Team shooting him. (The shield goes down quick under combined fire!)
  
• Using The Last Word (I never seem to win vs that thing. It tears through the shield and me like nothing else in the game!)

I main a Juggernaut and sure the shield helps, especially in one on one situations, but I also get killed quite a bit to enemies that can think on their feet. I can block a single sniper or Golden Gun shot and can approach closer to an enemy than I otherwise could, BUT 90 degree turns and enemies who are smart enough to jump pose a very serious problem.

Not saying Juggernaut Shield is no problem, it certainly can be, but you do have a few more options than surrendering.

A number of green boxes dotted around the map that spawned in at preset times, much like now. Except only one person could have them at a time, but you could claim them from that person if you kill them.

Imagine! Shotgunners exercising a little caution because a trade means losing their ammo! No more than a couple of snipers on each team at any one time! Map flow that actually flows due to mini-"objectives" around the map, rather than funnels! Primary fights!

Of course, I'm playing it up a bit. But that's definitely my preference. I imagine some of it is rose-tinted glasses though.

It is interesting to me how you put that. Especially in the context of Comparing it to Halo. My biggest problem with Halo was that over time it became "what do I pair woth my BR" as the singular meta gelled. I loved the variety we got with Vanilla, but thankfully with the various updates there have been shifts in the meta, keeping from being a one-gun-game, even if some parts of the community wish it would be.

I can't believe I'm offering advice on how to better use that broken-ass shield, but here goes:

Stop ADSing with your shotgun. I know you've been trained to do it by over a year of Rangefinder/Shot Package, but your shield doesn't go down until you press either Aim or Shoot. Get close enough that you don't need to ADS, then just pull the right trigger and Bam.

Yep. It's a great tip, but, for me at least, it is super duper hard to do!

Another thing that sometimes works is to just keep running until the enemy takes the first shot. At close range the multiple hits of a shotgun blast hit at the same time and are all completely blocked in the same way a Golden Gun shot is. But again, its awfully hard to not fire when I think I'm within range! :(

For me, nothing is more frustrating than a OHK from 15+ yards away from a warlock melee. Which in random PvP isn't so much a problem, but pretty much once a week I'm seeing that stuff during a trials run. Not pervasive, but definitely out there and reasonably common for the more competitive players.

FTFY. ;-)

Thank you for linking that video for me. I knew it existed, but my googlefu was lacking.

A number of green boxes dotted around the map that spawned in at preset times, much like now. Except only one person could have them at a time, but you could claim them from that person if you kill them.

Imagine! Shotgunners exercising a little caution because a trade means losing their ammo! No more than a couple of snipers on each team at any one time! Map flow that actually flows due to mini-"objectives" around the map, rather than funnels! Primary fights!

Of course, I'm playing it up a bit. But that's definitely my preference. I imagine some of it is rose-tinted glasses though.

This would be fun and interesting, methinks.

Sniper rifles and shotguns were power weapons, unless you played the sniper/shotty variant.

People could control the open field with a BR, Pistol or MR, but that was the extent of the issue. Most of the large open middles were to allow vehicle combat.

In Halo the most common loadout equivalent would be a mid impact AR, HC, or Scout rifle.

Imagine a round of crucible if you only had one green ammo box in the center of the map, and it only dropped one brick period, not a brick per person.

Depends on the map. Blood gulch had 2 snipers (one at each base), for example. Even so, my friends and I played an awful lot of pistol + sniper rifle and it was glorious.

Which would follow the same rules as the special, meaning it could spawn more than just once per game! I mean, less people would get to use it, but at least twice a game there'd be a big push from both sides to get that heavy, which is the most interesting thing about Heavy Ammo spawns anyway in the current meta.

Bungie plz

Edit: Or hell, make it a Scorch cannon!

It is interesting to me how you put that. Especially in the context of Comparing it to Halo. My biggest problem with Halo was that over time it became "what do I pair woth my BR" as the singular meta gelled. I loved the variety we got with Vanilla, but thankfully with the various updates there have been shifts in the meta, keeping from being a one-gun-game, even if some parts of the community wish it would be.

Yeah. I remember people like Datto trying to make Destiny PvP 'pro' by mandating certain loadouts and even skill tree choices…

I think that's lame. Yes, you run into problems when a given skill choice is just better than any other by a large margin and that should be fixed, but variety in the challenges you face in PvP is one of the things I really like about Destiny.

I'm pretty solidly against limiting subclass selections. Though I am okay with the idea of a rotating playlist with curated weapons. One of each class. For those people who want something more controlled, but will require a weekly or monthly meta shift as different weapons are thrown at each other. But I'll fight like hell against hat as the standard. I like my weapons because they are mine and they feel right in my hands.