I heard a rumor that raid matchmaking will be a thing in Destiny 2. Just random dude (benny_a) on neogaf, but he was referenced often in Jason Schreier's claims about Destiny 2.

I really hope this is not true.

PLEASE do not do this Bungie. The raids are the best part of the co-operative experience by a long shot. Part of that is that you can't do it with random people due to the challenge level.

I cannot stress enough how much worse the experience will be if this is an option. Raids are raids and are awesome because there is no possibility of playing matchmade.

I have my doubts this is true at all, because even adding an option would be an absolutely massive, game ruining mistake.

Why would it be worse? Hypothetically, IF they added it, are you expecting them to suddenly deny the option to do it with your own team?

No.

It wouldn't impact you at all if you always play with your friends, just like regular mm.

You are inventing things to worry about.

At the very least the NM can be matchmade. Or better, just have matchmaking be optional; there's nothing to stop you from going in with a premade.

You are inventing things to worry about.

Haaaaaaaave you met Cody?

Why would it be worse? Hypothetically, IF they added it, are you expecting them to suddenly deny the option to do it with your own team?

No.

It wouldn't impact you at all if you always play with your friends, just like regular mm.

It would. If they kept the complexity, time, and communication requirements, then a matchmade raid would completely suck. That would color people's experience, and they would lose a lot of people and get negative feedback. To counter this, the raid could be made less challenging and time intensive, but then we have THAT.

Lose lose. No activity right now with matchmaking even comes close, and there's a good reason for that.

I'll grant that a lot of your predictions have come true in the past, but matchmade raids are always a gamble for the player. You know that going in. Which is why most people will prefer to have a Fireteam. But if the option's there for those last minute clears and such, what's the harm?

And like I've said, the raids really aren't that complicated.

Unlike everything else in the game, raids require a certain amount of teamwork and cohesion.

If they were going to move in this direction, Bungie would have added matchmaking to Nightfalls by now.

Just think about the AFKers and griefers.

I don't see it happening.

Lets hope it's going to be an LFG type of thing built into the game's social spaces instead of matchmaking like it is now.

Unlike everything else in the game, raids require a certain amount of teamwork and cohesion.

If they were going to move in this direction, Bungie would have added matchmaking to Nightfalls by now.

Yes, I hope you are right and think this is a likely false rumor.

As far as MMOs are concerned, Destiny is super-casual. Not a bad thing by any means, but it doesn't inspire the type of play in most people that this is the direction I imagine they're looking at.

Why would it be worse? Hypothetically, IF they added it, are you expecting them to suddenly deny the option to do it with your own team?

No.

It wouldn't impact you at all if you always play with your friends, just like regular mm.

It would. If they kept the complexity, time, and communication requirements, then a matchmade raid would completely suck. That would color people's experience, and they would lose a lot of people and get negative feedback. To counter this, the raid could be made less challenging and time intensive, but then we have THAT.

Lose lose. No activity right now with matchmaking even comes close, and there's a good reason for that.

Or OR they might think "this would be better with friends. Perhaps I'll invite some or make some".

How do you think HBO and DBO work, dude? The people I play destiny with are people I played Halo with, when I joined HBO, because I wanted some dedicated people to play with instead of randos. I didn't stop playing Halo. I made it better for myself.

Most other people will do the same or similar. I'm sure people make friends on LFGs.

You worry over NOTHING.

- No text -

I used to think it was ridiculous.

Then in August I played a matchmade 40 person raid group in World of Warcraft. I believe you can also run the raids as a 10 person group.

You had people sign up as tanks and healers, then everyone else was "DPS". A raid leader is chosen (when you sign up you can specify if you're willing to do that or not, I assume someone has to be willing for a raid to form). I didn't even use voice chat, just text chat for a little explanation beforehand and then away we went.

I think people were a little over-geared because it was nearing the end of an expansion. It really wasn't a huge issue. Similar feel to a 5 person matchmade dungeon, with more people randomly dying. heh.

I expect that a well-tuned raid could be matchmade similar to the heroic strike playlist. Look at that playlist, it may as well be a Y1 nightfall for the modifiers and how it works. It doesn't kick to orbit if you wipe, but is the same otherwise, and a pickup group is normal for that.

So yeah, I think it's totally doable. I'm not sure I'd -like- it, the way that raids would work. But we kind of have the community dictating strategies anyway, this would just iterate on them faster. And foster random voice communication.

If they do matchmake it, I hope that they reserve some things for fireteam only. Maybe some challenges or hard mode or somesuch. because it definitely is a better experience. But it's also content that much of the playerbase won't see to completion.

But it's also content that much of the playerbase won't see to completion.

Is this okay? That's what I think this boils down to. I have friends who play Destiny but never raid because they haven't found people to play with. Some of them blame Destiny. To me that's like saying, ballroom dancing sucks because it doesn't find me people to ballroom dance with.

A part of our fondness for the original Halo multiplayer and the fun we had with it might have been because we were forced to play it with people we knew, after no small amount of effort and scheduling. We savored it.

Investment matters. Here's a relevant truth: homeowners tend to take greater care of their houses than renters do.

Or OR they might think "this would be better with friends. Perhaps I'll invite some or make some".

Oh, I see it's your first day on the internet . . .

Most other people will do the same or similar. I'm sure people make friends on LFGs.

I don't think this is true at all. We don't have nearly enough info on what "most" people do. It doesn't seem like most people group up with friends very often even to play Overwatch or Battlefield, and getting a decent team in a crap shoot. Matchmaking in raids will be even worse.

Not too mention, tensions sometimes run pretty high during DBO raids--I can't imagine what it would be like with total strangers, and I'm not ashamed to say I would probably just bail part of the way through a raid if I felt my random teammates were a lost cause.

I'm with Cody on this one. Matchmade raids will inevitably lead to dumbed down raids. That's a bad thing in my book.

It would. If they kept the complexity, time, and communication requirements, then a matchmade raid would completely suck. That would color people's experience, and they would lose a lot of people and get negative feedback. To counter this, the raid could be made less challenging and time intensive, but then we have THAT.

I definitely appreciate this sentiment. Raids are an inherently daunting task regardless if you have a great established fireteam running it or not. That being said, actually planning a raid has the air of being a pain in the ass, trying to find six individual Guardians with equal skill, appropriate gear, and the same schedule. It's pretty much why I haven't ventured into it at all. There needs to be some concession in making raids more accessible to at least make happen, whatever that may be.

Most, if not all y'all are grizzled veteran Destiny players and have been playing probably since well before the game even came out. The vast majority of players you'll encounter out on patrol, in Crucible, and so forth, are absolutely not and I would include myself in their ranks to some degree. A lot of these arguments here in opposition to forming a matchmade team for raids appear rooted in pure exclusivity, and it's kinda discouraging.

- No text -

It would. If they kept the complexity, time, and communication requirements, then a matchmade raid would completely suck. That would color people's experience, and they would lose a lot of people and get negative feedback. To counter this, the raid could be made less challenging and time intensive, but then we have THAT.

I definitely appreciate this sentiment. Raids are an inherently daunting task regardless if you have a great established fireteam running it or not. That being said, actually planning a raid has the air of being a pain in the ass, trying to find six individual Guardians with equal skill, appropriate gear, and the same schedule. It's pretty much why I haven't ventured into it at all. There needs to be some concession in making raids more accessible to at least make happen, whatever that may be.

I think you're making it sound more daunting than it is. Most raids I've ever played have had players with different skill levels (my presence just about guarantees that). You just need five people who want to play with you. I'm one. We need four more. I promise you they are here.

Most, if not all y'all are grizzled veteran Destiny players and have been playing probably since well before the game even came out. The vast majority of players you'll encounter out on patrol, in Crucible, and so forth, are absolutely not and I would include myself in their ranks to some degree. A lot of these arguments here in opposition to forming a matchmade team for raids appear rooted in pure exclusivity, and it's kinda discouraging.

Hmm, I don't know if it's exclusivity. I think most of us who don't want matchmaking want the activity to remain difficult, or at the very least only doable by a group of people who manage to achieve a certain level of cohesion. Few video games offer anything like that.

A matchmade Raid will never be as good as playing with your best friends. We all know that. But it can be good. A decent Raid leader and maybe a couple of others who know what they're doing and everyone can have fun and get great rewards.

Imagine the scandal is Destinylfg.com sold their domain name to a porn company. Or what if the people running it decided to just embed some malware into their website? Maybe EA buys it and makes it just totally not work properly in order to tank Destiny. Companies should *never* rely upon 3rd parties to perform basic functionality of their games. It's risky as hell because it's out of your control.

So I fully support 2Destiny2Furious including matchmaking. It's all about the implementation. My hope is that there will be some kind of feedback option, filtering for trolls and spammers, and an in-game message board that works just like LFG. "I'm a 398 warlock LFG for Wrath of the Machine Hard Mode (Fresh Run)." "Experienced raiders LF2M Vault of Glass Flawless attempts." "Streamer LTS 2 for Trials." Then you just browse and connect. That would be great.

Seamless matchmaking like in Destiny 1 would be awful, because it doesn't guarantee players are in chat. But something that streamlined the LFG process and cut out the middleman would be very, very welcome.

A matchmade Raid will never be as good as playing with your best friends. We all know that. But it can be good. A decent Raid leader and maybe a couple of others who know what they're doing and everyone can have fun and get great rewards.

Sure, it's possible. I predict it will mostly be bad. There would be little or no incentive to stay if the team seems to be struggling. There would be little or no incentive to be nice to the people who are not playing at your level.

Chances are better that it can be good with an LFG precisely because it takes effort to get in. And speaking as an LFG user, it's often not good, not good at all. Double-plus not good.

Imagine the scandal is Destinylfg.com sold their domain name to a porn company. Or what if the people running it decided to just embed some malware into their website? Maybe EA buys it and makes it just totally not work properly in order to tank Destiny. Companies should *never* rely upon 3rd parties to perform basic functionality of their games. It's risky as hell because it's out of your control.

How would Bungie have any responsibility for that scenario. How would that tank Destiny? I don't understand what you're saying at all.

DBO's FTB is a third-party product. If evil Beorn made it malicious, how would that be Bungie's scandal?

So I fully support 2Destiny2Furious including matchmaking. It's all about the implementation. My hope is that there will be some kind of feedback option, filtering for trolls and spammers, and an in-game message board that works just like LFG. "I'm a 398 warlock LFG for Wrath of the Machine Hard Mode (Fresh Run)." "Experienced raiders LF2M Vault of Glass Flawless attempts." "Streamer LTS 2 for Trials." Then you just browse and connect. That would be great.

Seamless matchmaking like in Destiny 1 would be awful, because it doesn't guarantee players are in chat. But something that streamlined the LFG process and cut out the middleman would be very, very welcome.

They're not relying on third-party sites now. Bungie has already implemented their own version of LFG, so I don't know what you mean about cutting out the middleman.

It would. If they kept the complexity, time, and communication requirements, then a matchmade raid would completely suck. That would color people's experience, and they would lose a lot of people and get negative feedback. To counter this, the raid could be made less challenging and time intensive, but then we have THAT.

I definitely appreciate this sentiment. Raids are an inherently daunting task regardless if you have a great established fireteam running it or not. That being said, actually planning a raid has the air of being a pain in the ass, trying to find six individual Guardians with equal skill, appropriate gear, and the same schedule. It's pretty much why I haven't ventured into it at all. There needs to be some concession in making raids more accessible to at least make happen, whatever that may be.

I think you're making it sound more daunting than it is. Most raids I've ever played have had players with different skill levels (my presence just about guarantees that). You just need five people who want to play with you. I'm one. We need four more. I promise you they are here.

Most, if not all y'all are grizzled veteran Destiny players and have been playing probably since well before the game even came out. The vast majority of players you'll encounter out on patrol, in Crucible, and so forth, are absolutely not and I would include myself in their ranks to some degree. A lot of these arguments here in opposition to forming a matchmade team for raids appear rooted in pure exclusivity, and it's kinda discouraging.

Hmm, I don't know if it's exclusivity. I think most of us who don't want matchmaking want the activity to remain difficult, or at the very least only doable by a group of people who manage to achieve a certain level of cohesion. Few video games offer anything like that.

In addition to what Kermit said, the lack of matchmaking with Destiny's raids creates a certain element that matchmaking lacks: commitment.
A group of people have agreed to set aside a couple of hours and complete a task together. Look at how often we run into quitters during strikes or PvP... Now just imagine how much worse that problem would be during an activity as long and demanding as a raid.

I do understand the fact that organizing a group can feel a bit daunting or intimidating. It's not "pick-up-and-play" convinient like matchmaking is. But that's precisely what allows Bungie to make the raids such unique experiences. When you know the fireteam has a certain level of commitment going in, you can demand things of them that go above and beyond what you would include in the typical strike.

DBO's FTB is a third-party product. If evil Beorn made it malicious...

Oh, he's way ahead of ya. :p

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When you know the fireteam has a certain level of commitment going in, you can demand things of them that go above and beyond what you would include in the typical strike.

Yes, but you can demand those exact same things if matchmaking is turned on. Look at it from the other direction. Are all the current Raids dumbed down because Bungie doesn't require the people you Raid with be your lifelong friends who are playing in the same room as you?

Are all the current Raids dumbed down because Bungie doesn't require the people you Raid with be your lifelong friends who are playing in the same room as you?

Actually, probably, yeah. You don't think the raids would be different if they could guarantee that? I bet they would.

I get why people want matchmaking for raids. I'll even give it the benefit of the doubt if it does happen. But I don't see it making anyone happy. If people wanted to raid, they would raid. It's not that hard to put a group together. On the other hand, Bungie will absolutely have to take the fact that complete randos will be raiding together into account when they design raids. I'm not sure that will be detrimental, but I also don't see how it can be good.

You worry over NOTHING.

LOL because Bungie hasn't thought the same thing that Cody has and kept matchmaking out of Raids or explained similar for 2+ years. You're so cool and smart. And Thorn was not overpowered, it was in everyones' heads!

You worry over NOTHING.

LOL because Bungie hasn't thought the same thing that Cody has and kept matchmaking out of Raids or explained similar for 2+ years. You're so cool and smart. And Thorn was not overpowered, it was in everyone's heads!

Hey, while they're at, maybe they'll add a timer to the Raid when you beat the final boss!

Better go find other things to invent and be worried about!

HURR

LOL nice deflection! Got me!

Are all the current Raids dumbed down because Bungie doesn't require the people you Raid with be your lifelong friends who are playing in the same room as you?

Actually, probably, yeah. You don't think the raids would be different if they could guarantee that? I bet they would.

Bungie might not require that, but that doesn't mean that wasn't their target audience, which fits neatly into their mission of making games that they like to play. VoG was designed for Luke Smith and his long-time MMO buddies. If it had been designed for a broader audience, it would not be as special as it was. The experience it offered would not have been as unique.

I get why people want matchmaking for raids. I'll even give it the benefit of the doubt if it does happen. But I don't see it making anyone happy. If people wanted to raid, they would raid. It's not that hard to put a group together. On the other hand, Bungie will absolutely have to take the fact that complete randos will be raiding together into account when they design raids. I'm not sure that will be detrimental, but I also don't see how it can be good.

It won't be. Having accommodated the broader audience by adding matchmaking, other accommodations will sneak in, and raiding as we know it will end. I completely agree with Cody on this.

Are all the current Raids dumbed down because Bungie doesn't require the people you Raid with be your lifelong friends who are playing in the same room as you?

Actually, probably, yeah. You don't think the raids would be different if they could guarantee that? I bet they would.

I get why people want matchmaking for raids. I'll even give it the benefit of the doubt if it does happen. But I don't see it making anyone happy. If people wanted to raid, they would raid. It's not that hard to put a group together. On the other hand, Bungie will absolutely have to take the fact that complete randos will be raiding together into account when they design raids. I'm not sure that will be detrimental, but I also don't see how it can be good.

Complete randos raid together now. All this talk of absolutely is just silly.

Are all the current Raids dumbed down because Bungie doesn't require the people you Raid with be your lifelong friends who are playing in the same room as you?

Actually, probably, yeah. You don't think the raids would be different if they could guarantee that? I bet they would.

I get why people want matchmaking for raids. I'll even give it the benefit of the doubt if it does happen. But I don't see it making anyone happy. If people wanted to raid, they would raid. It's not that hard to put a group together. On the other hand, Bungie will absolutely have to take the fact that complete randos will be raiding together into account when they design raids. I'm not sure that will be detrimental, but I also don't see how it can be good.

Complete randos raid together now. All this talk of absolutely is just silly.

No they don't. I'm taking the liberty of defining cheapley's "complete randos" as randos who will have simply followed the prompts Bungie provided them with to join a raid fireteam. Those randos are not the randos playing now.

True. But I think the qualifier is the type of randos who are coming together to do it vs. the general playerbase with the ability to matchmake. I'm just thinking about WoW here, which has a tiered matchmaking approach. I'm not sure how well that would translate to Destiny. The general player-base who can't handle Raiding could, at worst, be more likely to complain about difficulty and demand nerfs or other concessions to make it easier. That could have a very negative impact on the experience from the bottom on up.

It won't be. Having accommodated the broader audience by adding matchmaking, other accommodations will sneak in, and raiding as we know it will end. I completely agree with Cody on this.

Absolute phrasing based on an opinion is still a stilly way to use words.

Are all the current Raids dumbed down because Bungie doesn't require the people you Raid with be your lifelong friends who are playing in the same room as you?

Actually, probably, yeah. You don't think the raids would be different if they could guarantee that? I bet they would.

I get why people want matchmaking for raids. I'll even give it the benefit of the doubt if it does happen. But I don't see it making anyone happy. If people wanted to raid, they would raid. It's not that hard to put a group together. On the other hand, Bungie will absolutely have to take the fact that complete randos will be raiding together into account when they design raids. I'm not sure that will be detrimental, but I also don't see how it can be good.

Complete randos raid together now. All this talk of absolutely is just silly.

No they don't. I'm taking the liberty of defining cheapley's "complete randos" as randos who will have simply followed the prompts Bungie provided them with to join a raid fireteam. Those randos are not the randos playing now.

Well then. You win. Because you defined winning to be whatever you say. Good job.

It won't be. Having accommodated the broader audience by adding matchmaking, other accommodations will sneak in, and raiding as we know it will end. I completely agree with Cody on this.

Absolute phrasing based on an opinion is still a stilly way to use words.

Words, Shmords. Raid matchmaking would suck, absolutely.

Are all the current Raids dumbed down because Bungie doesn't require the people you Raid with be your lifelong friends who are playing in the same room as you?

Actually, probably, yeah. You don't think the raids would be different if they could guarantee that? I bet they would.

I get why people want matchmaking for raids. I'll even give it the benefit of the doubt if it does happen. But I don't see it making anyone happy. If people wanted to raid, they would raid. It's not that hard to put a group together. On the other hand, Bungie will absolutely have to take the fact that complete randos will be raiding together into account when they design raids. I'm not sure that will be detrimental, but I also don't see how it can be good.

Complete randos raid together now. All this talk of absolutely is just silly.

No they don't. I'm taking the liberty of defining cheapley's "complete randos" as randos who will have simply followed the prompts Bungie provided them with to join a raid fireteam. Those randos are not the randos playing now.

Well then. You win. Because you defined winning to be whatever you say. Good job.

Actually, you are drawing a false equivalency here. "Randos" who go to an LFG site are not the same as "randos" who select an activity through in-game matchmaking. Going to an LFG site takes more effort, therefore showing a greater level of commitment.

I'm often the first person to complain when a game system or mechanic isn't "player friendly" in terms of convinience, but there are times when making things as easy as possible can backfire. With Destiny's raids, Bungie has created an activity that is far more demanding than the average co-op shooter experience. Demanding activity + instant matchmaking + playing with complete strangers is a bad combination.

I don't know if you ever played Gears of War horde mode, but I don't think I ever made it past wave 30 (out of 50) in a matchmade group because somebody would always quit early, which would cause someone else to quit, and before you know it the whole team is gone before the JIP function could replace anyone. And Horde Mode is infinitely simpler than any of Destiny's raids.

Anyone who's played basically any other MMO (including Luke Smith) knows that raid matchmaking is fine. The first few weeks after an expansion can be spotty as people learn, but it all trickles down and after 2 weeks you can hop in there with solid expectations of victory.

If Bungie don't want Raid Matchmaking its because it doesn't fit their vision. Which is fine! But it's definitely not because their raids are too complicated.

Anyone who's played basically any other MMO (including Luke Smith) knows that raid matchmaking is fine. The first few weeks after an expansion can be spotty as people learn, but it all trickles down and after 2 weeks you can hop in there with solid expectations of victory.

3:2 odds that within 2 years Luke Smith is no longer at Bungie. Bookmark this post and check in late 2018.

It would be a shame because his raids are great.

It wouldn't be Bungie's problem or fault. But their game and fans would suffer without the crutch nonetheless. Much better and safer to run it in-house.

I don't disagree actually, but I have no idea what point you're making.

It wouldn't be Bungie's problem or fault. But their game and fans would suffer without the crutch nonetheless. Much better and safer to run it in-house.

And they've done exactly that. Bungie has their own LFG site.

Watching people solo the raids is really fun, don't take that away pls Bingle.

I stand corrected.

The folks arguing against raid matchmaking win because their arguments are significantly more persuasive than the pro-matchmaking group.

And for me, coming from the folks who I see as most hardcore into raiding, that adds extra rhetorical weight to their points.

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Actually, you are drawing a false equivalency here. "Randos" who go to an LFG site are not the same as "randos" who select an activity through in-game matchmaking. Going to an LFG site takes more effort, therefore showing a greater level of commitment.

Exactly. Even though you're playing with complete strangers through an LFG site, they've at least marginally shown they're committed to trying to complete a raid.

I don't know if you ever played Gears of War horde mode, but I don't think I ever made it past wave 30 (out of 50) in a matchmade group because somebody would always quit early, which would cause someone else to quit, and before you know it the whole team is gone before the JIP function could replace anyone. And Horde Mode is infinitely simpler than any of Destiny's raids.

You don't even have to look outside of Destiny for evidence of matchmaking in raids being a bad idea. You only have to look at any strike playlist or Crucible match to see any number of quitters or AFKs.

Like I said, I won't be upset merely because raids are matchmade if that happens. I'll certainly never use matchmaking to find a group for a raid, unless raids get dumbed down. And then that's when I'll be upset.

Look, I'm all for as many as people as possible being able to play the raid. But at a certain point, if you can't even be bothered to put a group together, maybe raiding just isn't designed for you.

https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Topics?tg=Recruitment%20PS4

I'm amazed at how many people are searching for Trials groups right now :p

-Disciple

Imagine the scandal is Destinylfg.com sold their domain name to a porn company. Or what if the people running it decided to just embed some malware into their website? Maybe EA buys it and makes it just totally not work properly in order to tank Destiny. Companies should *never* rely upon 3rd parties to perform basic functionality of their games. It's risky as hell because it's out of your control.

How would Bungie have any responsibility for that scenario. How would that tank Destiny? I don't understand what you're saying at all.

DBO's FTB is a third-party product. If evil Beorn made it malicious, how would that be Bungie's scandal?

While Bungie wouldn't be legally liable in any way, it would hurt their players and community. Better to play it safe.

So I fully support 2Destiny2Furious including matchmaking. It's all about the implementation. My hope is that there will be some kind of feedback option, filtering for trolls and spammers, and an in-game message board that works just like LFG. "I'm a 398 warlock LFG for Wrath of the Machine Hard Mode (Fresh Run)." "Experienced raiders LF2M Vault of Glass Flawless attempts." "Streamer LTS 2 for Trials." Then you just browse and connect. That would be great.

Seamless matchmaking like in Destiny 1 would be awful, because it doesn't guarantee players are in chat. But something that streamlined the LFG process and cut out the middleman would be very, very welcome.

They're not relying on third-party sites now. Bungie has already implemented their own version of LFG, so I don't know what you mean about cutting out the middleman.

I had absolutely no idea. I've never seen or heard of this until just now. Good for them; I wish they'd advertise it.

It's been implemented since May. It's in the companion app, too. Tap More > Recruitment.

It's been implemented since May. It's in the companion app, too. Tap More > Recruitment.

For some reason I thought that was purely for finding clans. TIL, thanks!

After several attempts in this thread, I think I have a clearer way of articulating why I feel it's a bad idea to add matchmaking to the raids.

Bungie doesn't have matchmaking now for the same reason they don't let you play certain difficulties until you reach a certain light level. For the raids that exist now, if Bungie were to add matchmaking, they would be setting up players for failure, which would be a problem. There would then naturally be pressure to fix the problem, but the only way to fix that problem would be to dumb down future raids.

I actually do agree. After thinking about it my point of view turned out to be somewhat elitist. Essentially: The Raids aren't that complicated, the general populace just isn't very good.

Which a) is pretty douchey of me, and I apologise
And b) is irrelevant - Bungie have to make decisions fir their existing audience, not my hypothetical ideal MMO crowd.