Bizarrely Trials of Osiris, the most competitive playlist, is the only one that doesnt use SBMM.

A 50/50 victory ratio (the absolute goal of SBMM) is useless in Trials, so I guess it makes sense.

Make range and impact on shotguns inverse. Long rage on the low impact archtype, and low range on the high impact. Not my idea but when you think about it it makes so much goddamn sense.

Thanks :)

The only time I really rage at shotguns is when I get hit from ridiculous ranges. If you have a PC+1 or Matador with range perks, you are golden. If not, you suffer. I was trying out the raid shotgun in clash yesterday and I kept leaving warlocks with a sliver of life, and they would melee me and get their health back. Flipping impact/range would fix this.

Destiny PVP is very, very mobile. In fact Bungie has greatly reduced that mobility with the Titan skate and Hunter/Warlock blink nerfs in order to reduce the shotgun warrioring. The main problem these days is that with the range nerfs on primaries, it is still too easy to get within OHK range with a perfect shotgun.

I don't want the old Halo shotguns, where if you weren't 6 feet away it did no damage. Lord of Wolves and the Chaperone have good range, and you don't see people spamming either. The key is those don't OHK unless you get headshots, which is a bit more skill based.

Add in some more open maps, you rarely saw shotguns on First Light, for example, and we should be set. Right now I think Bungie's move away from large vehicle maps, because they couldn't balance interceptors like the did with Warthogs, ghosts and tanks in Halo, really puts the kibosh on the longer range specials outside of Trials and 3v3 game modes.

This is the only fix that makes sense to me. Unfortunately I don't think even doing this will make a big difference. Part of the problem with shotguns is lag. You see someone kill you from a long way away, but on their screen they killed you in half the distance (probably exaggerated, but still). Anything that fixes that will probably also make shotguns totally useless in multiplayer.

It was unstoppable. Two-shot kills galore if you could pull off headshots due to the DOT mechanic. I absolutely wrecked people with that thing once RNG finally gave me the bounty/quest, and as was pointed out by someotherguy, usually the more skilled player would win in a match of Thorn vs. Thorn. It definitely was a simpler time, and while I thoroughly enjoyed how absolutely cheap it felt for me to run away with matches with the thing, it really needed to be nerfed.

The year 3 version is out and about in Crucible now, and clever players and skillful players can totally destroy with it (especially if they communicate and coordinate well with teammates). I personally have no desire to use it in Crucible, but it definitely changes up how I play a match when I come up against it. Good adversity.

The funny thing about Thorn, is that it was originally very bad (I forget exactly what was bad about it, but a lot of people complained that it was a crappy reward for such a difficult quest). So, they buffed it, but you still didn't see it all that much until Trials of Osiris was released. Thorn's DOT effect is much more powerful in the Elimination game type, because it forces you to retreat until the DOT wears off, allowing the other team to gain a terrain or numbers advantage by preventing revives. That's when people started using it a lot, because it turned out it was also pretty powerful even without the DOT effect.

Honestly, it's a little over-exaggerated how much it was used. You saw The Last Word, Red Death (to counter Thorn), and The Messenger just as often.

Pardon my ignorance, but what was so special about Thorn exactly? I totally missed when that hand cannon was in vogue.

-Two headshot kills, you could battle with a sniper at range with it's long distance accuracy. Finally, my favorite thing to do was to shot someone with thorn and then snipe them behind a rock since I could see the damage ticks. I was a complete jerk in year 1. I had an armor piercing, final round efrideet's spear that could one shot body shot someone and I could shoot them through walls. Pair that with Thorn, and you were not safe. Also, axion bolts/arcbolts/firebolts paired really well with Thorn, you'd shoot them then throw a grenade and get people behind cover. The DoT kept shields down and allowed the grenades to clean them up easily.

- No text -

This is a great point. Trespasser, specifically, is a great anti-meta gun right now, if you're good enough to use it.

I don't fall for the if you can't bet 'em, join 'em. I haven't joined the current meta of all Shotgunning all the time, but then again I pretty much avoid PvP except for Iron Banner or for a quest/bounty. And yes, the last one (Iron Banner) was a very frustrating shotgun fest.

Recently you have repeatedly asked for more map verticality and more sniping areas, no?

Yes, yes I have. I'm also simultaneously calling for adjusting snipers to be far longer range weapons than they are right now. They basically rival scout rifles for optimal range right now, which is just silly. Snipers should be pushed back twice as far, IMO. Problem is, not a single map in rotation right now supports that kind of play.

Also, I don't think a sniper camp-fest would be bad if it took snipers longer to ADS such that they pretty much had to stay scoped in (limiting their turning, vision, and movement). It would become a trade - you're completely vulnerable to flanking but you're good at holding a sight line. You know... like a sniper. People who want to play the way snipers currently play would find scout rifles a perfect fit.

I don't mind if there was a sniping gametype that I could simply not participate in, or certain sniping friendly maps that I could veto out of if I don't want to play them on a certain day.
I find sniping to be fun occasionally, but not when it overtakes every map and I'm getting spawn killed by the same person over and over again. (and no, git gud-er is not an active defense or positive piece of advice)

On no map should spawn killing ever be possible. I think all spawns should come with a three second buff that reflects projectiles back at the shooter, simply to discourage spawn camping. The spawns in Destiny are god-awful and need dramatic improvement. Please note that while I'm advocating for having more open space in maps, I don't want to see snipers become the preferred choice. Rather, I'd like to see maps designed such that sniping is an option in a couple of lanes, but also has lanes where sniping isn't effective. Your team would want at least one sniper to hold that long, open area, but the majority of the team would need to be non-snipers in order to compete. It's a delicate balance and one that Bungie has understandably whiffed on.

I happen to have rolled a Thesan FR4 with Rangefinder and Skip Rounds and I can assure you the ability is there. For some reason, it isn't that big in the meta.

While map design can help, I think some more less then lethal weapons could help as well. The shotgun rush is dependent on the rush and close range. Nightstalker smoke can ruin that, if available and if deployed.

I think if you pushed out AR and HC range, coupled by a small buff to FR charge time and Sidearm range, you could fit a grenade launcher into the special category. Like the "pro-pipe" from reach, it would be a one shot deal, but leave smoke (void), flames (solar) or a flare (ark) upon detonation.

Players could sacrifice offensive capability for some map control and indirect fire. I think destiny definitely needs more indirect fire to flush players out of corners.

I would fully support these changes.

I think your recollection of the doc is either wrong, or you are looking at average rather than optimal time to kill. A hawksaw type pulse rifle kills in three bursts if you get criticals. That is around a second.

As cody said, the optimal TTKs for weapons are faster that you remembered.

For travel time, you're not actually moving 20 meters in 1 second. Rather, you're starting 20 meters away and closing into shotgun OHK range in 1 second. It's more like 11 meters of movement with a max range shotgun, which is about how long you move if you press sprint and immediately slide.

It is admittedly difficult to gauge distance in Destiny. I'm basing my numbers more on what you see in Keen Koala's video, just for clarity. At the range he stands at for what he calls 23 meters, that's just outside of where I know I can sprint/slide/shoot and get a lethal OHK with a shotgun. At the range that he calls 15 meters, that's well within my sprint/slide/shoot range (I probably wouldn't even bother sliding). This is also discussing guardian movement speed at that of a near-max hunter or titan skater, and is *not* the movement speed of most warlock PvP builds, nor could a non-skating titan achieve this speed.

I feel like mentioning that it's a pretty realistic speed for gameplay, which also probably adds to why movement in Destiny feels so good. Human sprinters run at about 10 meters per second (Usain Bolt's world record being 9.58 seconds for the 100 meter dash), so it makes sense that our superhuman destiny dudes run at about the same clip.

While I have a great many things I disagree with in your post (and some I agree with at least in part) before I dive into the rest of the bag of cats I have to respond to this:

First: Our pvp designer flatly refused to make the guns stronger or weaker than they really were. He actually had quantified the amount of damage each gun could do based on projectile penetrations into ballistics gel. Rate of fire, recoil, ammo capacity, all similarly fixed in the name of historical accuracy.

Because utilizing potential energy and technical specifications for the purpose of historical accuracy while disregarding functional ballistics and erratic wound patterning and response (exsanguination, shock, CNS damage) really razzes my y berries. Especially in the contrxt of a game. Either MilSim it or go for game logic, don't try to do both.

I don't quite understand what you're saying. The game should have had a level of realistic damage that no game has ever achieved?

This was a game logic situation where the constraint was to find a way to balance weapons without changing them from historically accurate technical specs. The priority was still game balance, and if we couldn't find a way to do it then I'm sure we would have changed the stats to make weapons more fair, but we did find a way and it was largely successful.

I kid. I know nothing about your ELO, or mine. But I see talk of that behaviour (and see it in-game) often enough to know that either you're matching into vastly different lobbies to me or being a little liberal with the truth.

This never happens in practice. I virtually never am in say, a pulse rifle engagement only to lose because the opponent rushes forward and shotguns me. I die to shotguns when they can close on me and not be shot. Around corners. Jumping from below obstacles. That kind of thing.

The game you describe is not the game I have been playing, at least in my experience. Plus fusions are the counter to shotguns. Still love them and always have.

Agreed.

The only way someone starting from Sniper range (which I'd count as from B on Shores of Time to the sniping point beside C or from one side of the waterfall sniper lane on Pantheon to the other) kills me with a shotgun in the open is if I was in the other room grabbing some more Dr. Pepper.

As long as I have a clear line of sight, I can kill them with my sidearm nearly every time even if they start pretty close (say... from C on Black Shield to that stack of pipes at the C door or even a little closer).

Where shotguns get me is when someone uses a 90 degree turn or a doorway to lure me in. Or when they use cover then pop over or around an obstruction. Basically, when the enemy plays to their advantage and I don't properly counter. (Sometimes properly countering means backing off and leaving them camping)

I still think Destiny's real weapon problem is we have three or so main engagement distances (Short, Medium, Long) but too many weapons vying for relevance within those zones. Like, what is a Hand Cannon but a short range Scout Rifle that feels more and more iffy as you move past its intended range? If my heavy Scout Rifle and Hand Cannon both kill in three shots... why ever use the Hand Cannon?

Maybe Hand Cannons should be merged into the Sidearm group, have their range pulled in a third and their power upped a third so they're two shot kill heavy Sidearms? Make them feel loud and powerful and distinctive (I always like the Bioshock Infinite Hand Cannon, for instance) but meant to be used in close instead of being in a primary slot where most other primaries just outrange them...

Its such a tricky problem though...

This never happens in practice. I virtually never am in say, a pulse rifle engagement only to lose because the opponent rushes forward and shotguns me. I die to shotguns when they can close on me and not be shot. Around corners. Jumping from below obstacles. That kind of thing.

The game you describe is not the game I have been playing, at least in my experience. Plus fusions are the counter to shotguns. Still love them and always have.

You may be the rare player who doesn't let himself get out of position. Though a shotgunner jumping up to meet you should not win that engagement. You can brain him with your shotty before he can hit your feet with his.

Bummed I missed that; it's a great post with very keen observations. You're 100% right. The maps allow players to traverse them in such a way that they are never more than 20 m from their target, so there's no reason for them to ever not use a shotgun. Map design dictates what weapon you use. Large open spaces favor snipers and tight hallways favor shotties. But Destiny is all tight hallways. Even classic "sniper" maps like Pantheon actually have enough obstacles in the way that you can avoid every sniper lane and still cross the map with ease (and with a shotgun). Bannerfall is the closest map they have to actually allowing for all weapons to function well, but again - it's pretty easy for a shotgunner to just avoid the outdoors area and only allow brief flashes of vulnerability to enemy snipers. And that's just a single map out of the... 20 in rotation? More?