THAB 11/17/16 (Destiny)
by CyberKN 
, Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Friday, November 18, 2016, 01:59 (3020 days ago)
edited by CyberKN, Friday, November 18, 2016, 02:11
https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/45459/7_This-Week-at-Bungie--11172016
Raid Ride-along Wrap-up, and some Matchmaking/Networking Q/A (Damage/movement is on a 30Hz tick; Ammo spawn/scoring is on a 10Hz tick).
and Raga complains about defenders being weak...
by unoudid , Somewhere over the rainbow, Friday, November 18, 2016, 02:14 (3020 days ago) @ CyberKN
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It helps when people are stupid...
by MacAddictXIV , Seattle WA, Friday, November 18, 2016, 12:12 (3019 days ago) @ unoudid
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/me takes mock offense at being called stupid. :p
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, November 18, 2016, 12:48 (3019 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV
So many amusing ways to read that sentence! :)
I haven't even looked at the update very hard yet, was busy doing something else, is the Defender part in one of the videos of the week?
Yup. Last one.
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Friday, November 18, 2016, 12:56 (3019 days ago) @ Ragashingo
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It amuses me
You see all these seemingly intelligent rants on the reddit pages, oh SMBB is terrible, we need CMBB! Oh Destiny has a 10 tick refresh rate, this is aweful blah blah blah blah.
And then the devs come out and blow major holes in those assumptions. Ah the internet, what good would it be without rants?
It amuses me
by dogcow , Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Friday, November 18, 2016, 15:12 (3019 days ago) @ Durandal
You see all these seemingly intelligent rants on the reddit pages, oh SMBB is terrible, we need CMBB! Oh Destiny has a 10 tick refresh rate, this is aweful blah blah blah blah.
And then the devs come out and blow major holes in those assumptions. Ah the internet, what good would it be without rants?
Sadly, I expect people will call Bungie liars when their rants & testing are refuted by Bungie.
It amuses me
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, November 18, 2016, 16:35 (3019 days ago) @ dogcow
You see all these seemingly intelligent rants on the reddit pages, oh SMBB is terrible, we need CMBB! Oh Destiny has a 10 tick refresh rate, this is aweful blah blah blah blah.
And then the devs come out and blow major holes in those assumptions. Ah the internet, what good would it be without rants?
Sadly, I expect people will call Bungie liars when their rants & testing are refuted by Bungie.
That is exactly what is happening on Reddit.
So what's the explanation for the lag?
If Bungie is saying they're doing damage and health on a 30 tick (which is still half as often as Titanfall 2 and overwatch and less than 1/3 as often as Counterstrike), are they trying to say there's no lag? Because that's patently false. Even games where there isn't much lag at all still have a huge number of trades, which really shouldn't be possible. How the hell did I get a melee kill from beyond the grave? Lag. How did I do it five times in one match? That's a crapload of lag. I'm not talking about the red bar gods who snipe you from across the map through three walls and while facing the wrong direction. I'm talking about the average, run of the mill, every single encounter sort of lag that this game has. Other FPS games simply don't have it. I don't remember the last time I traded in Titanfall 2, for example (I honestly may never have traded in the 30+ matches I've played). In Destiny I trade all the damn time.
The statistical odds of both players firing at the exact same time are incredibly small. So you're talking about broad windows during which damage can occur. Bungie is claiming that they asses damage on every single frame of animation in this game (30 fps, 30 tick). If that's the case, the only explanation is lag. All those times you fired, saw your gun animation play, then saw the opponent's gun animation play, and then you both died? The only explanation for that is lag if the game is running at 30 ticks per second.
This problem is why the 10 tick explanation was plausible. Now Bungie says that's not the case, so there are only two other explanations possible:
First would be SBMM having a priority over CBMM, forcing people into games against players with poor connections. Bungie also states that this isn't the case, and they've insisted over and over and over that their game values connection quality over skill by a wide margin.
So we're left with only one, very disappointing option (that we've actually known about for a long time):
- Bungie's netcode sucks balls.
That's it. That's the only way to explain all of this lag. If the game ticks as often as Bungie says, and the matches are connected based on connection speed to the degree that Bungie insists they are, the only way we can explain the lag that we all experience in every game is that the fundamental netcode upon which the game has been built is complete garbage for competitive PvP.
Yeah, I think I'm moving on to Titanfall 2. God DAMN that game is fun. Bonus: It is never frustrating. You always know who killed you and how, and it's never around a corner, through a wall, or because of lag.
Edit in case it wasn't clear: I don't expect Bungie to ever fix the lag if the problem is, as it seems to be, the fundamental networking structure of their PvP systems. They may not even be able to. Des2ny is the only hope for things to improve, so pvp lovers like me should be praying that Bungie gets it right the second time around.
It amuses me
by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Saturday, November 19, 2016, 01:30 (3019 days ago) @ Durandal
You see all these seemingly intelligent rants on the reddit pages, oh SMBB is terrible, we need CMBB! Oh Destiny has a 10 tick refresh rate, this is aweful blah blah blah blah.
And then the devs come out and blow major holes in those assumptions. Ah the internet, what good would it be without rants?
IMO, they didn't "blow major holes" in anything. They expressed their design GOALS... but goals and reality can be very different things.
I'm not a game developer. I wasn't there to witness all the work that went into creating every aspect of Destiny's PvP experience. All I know is that, along with a few elements that I really love, Destiny PvP is frequently a frustrating experience on many levels. From connection issues to balance problems to map/gametype designs to weapons that don't seem to behave the way players expect them too, etc. The average crucible match has me saying "oh COME ON" out of exasperation/frustration at least once per minute. I've already put close to 30 hours into Titanfall 2 PvP, and I have had precisely ZERO moments of frustration so far. Bungie can write about their goals all they want (no sarcasm intended there... I really do appreciate the insight and communication), but so far what they SAY about Destiny PvP is very far from my experiences playing it.
It amuses me
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Saturday, November 19, 2016, 13:59 (3018 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
I don't think that's what dogcow was referring to with blowing major holes in it. People are accusing Bungie (before and after this post) of lying and having a ridiculously low tickrate as well as favoring SBMM over CBMM. Bungie in this post out right said that's not the case (in the much larger section under the small part about goals). That's a fact, not a goal. They were NOT saying that their matchmaking is working great, or that games are lag free (as many people assume that they are for some reason), they are just saying that the current conspiracy theories being spread around are wrong. Those are two VERY different things which Reddit seems to have a big issue accepting.
I don't think that's what dogcow was referring to with blowing major holes in it. People are accusing Bungie (before and after this post) of lying and having a ridiculously low tickrate as well as favoring SBMM over CBMM. Bungie in this post out right said that's not the case (in the much larger section under the small part about goals). That's a fact, not a goal. They were NOT saying that their matchmaking is working great, or that games are lag free (as many people assume that they are for some reason), they are just saying that the current conspiracy theories being spread around are wrong. Those are two VERY different things which Reddit seems to have a big issue accepting.
I mostly agree, I just don't see it so much as "conspiracy theories"... Destiny fans are merely trying to come up with realistic explanations for why certain aspects of Destiny PvP are so poor so often. They may not come up with the correct explainations, but there clearly are very real problems, both in terms of tech and design. There are always specific commenters who take things too far, but the majority of the discussion that I see is coming from a place of genuine confusion. Destiny fans don't understand how Bungie, a developer that repeatedly set the bar for online console gameplay, could now be so far behind the competition. I would argue that they've failed to meet the standards they were setting themselves 10 years ago. So yes, I do appreciate the clarification with regards to how certain things actually work. But I think what the community at large REALLY wants is to know "ok, if those are not the reasons for things being so bad so often, then what ARE the reasons?". This line of commentary always runs the risk of sounding like some kind of witch hunt, and I certainly don't mean it in that way. I think the majority of players asking these questions are searching for reassurance. They want to know that Bungie realizes their current PvP game is sub-par, they know what is causing the problems, and have a plan to address it (if not for D1, then in Des2ny).
It amuses me
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Saturday, November 19, 2016, 14:44 (3018 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
And I do agree with your points that matchmaking is a problem. It's reddit screaming "BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS BUNGIE?!?" accusing them of lying that's ridiculous. Yes, there is a problem with matchmaking, yes it should be addressed. Saying "you're theories are wrong, here's why" is not lying because it doesn't address the issue. A logical person would respond with "That's great, now what IS going on with lag, and what are you doing to address it?" instead the Internet loves to turn it into a fight over picking apart a dozen of Bungie employees' words to show any inconsistencies (some real, some a stretch, and some imagined) across a year+ period. And people wonder why Bungie isn't more transparent.
</rant>
And I do agree with your points that matchmaking is a problem. It's reddit screaming "BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS BUNGIE?!?" accusing them of lying that's ridiculous. Yes, there is a problem with matchmaking, yes it should be addressed. Saying "you're theories are wrong, here's why" is not lying because it doesn't address the issue. A logical person would respond with "That's great, now what IS going on with lag, and what are you doing to address it?" instead the Internet loves to turn it into a fight over picking apart a dozen of Bungie employees' words to show any inconsistencies (some real, some a stretch, and some imagined) across a year+ period. And people wonder why Bungie isn't more transparent.
</rant>
Yes, some people really do take it too far. But Bungie HAS been misleading in the past. They're in an extremely tough position, of course.
On an interesting side note, I came across this last week.
Respawn, the developers of Titanfall 2, are intentionally refraining from giving the community specific details with regards to balance updates. They'll say things like "we've made some balance adjustments to the Tone Titan", or "we've tweaked primary weapons a bit"... and that's all. No specifics about what exactly has been changed, no percentages or numbers. This looks to me like a direct response to Reddit's tendancy over-analyse and dissect every tiny detail, leading to pre-conceived biases before they've even played the update. It will be very interesting to see how this policy works out.
It amuses me
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, November 19, 2016, 15:12 (3018 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
This seems pretty sensible to me. I've long mentioned that there are too many numbers in Destiny already.
It amuses me
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Saturday, November 19, 2016, 15:16 (3018 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
Respawn, the developers of Titanfall 2, are intentionally refraining from giving the community specific details with regards to balance updates. They'll say things like "we've made some balance adjustments to the Tone Titan", or "we've tweaked primary weapons a bit"... and that's all. No specifics about what exactly has been changed, no percentages or numbers. This looks to me like a direct response to Reddit's tendancy over-analyse and dissect every tiny detail, leading to pre-conceived biases before they've even played the update. It will be very interesting to see how this policy works out.
And even with all that Legion is still overpowered ;)
But seriously, as more time goes by watching the Internet shred update notes before the update is even released I've been thinking that is a better way to do it.
It amuses me
And I do agree with your points that matchmaking is a problem. It's reddit screaming "BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS BUNGIE?!?" accusing them of lying that's ridiculous. Yes, there is a problem with matchmaking, yes it should be addressed. Saying "you're theories are wrong, here's why" is not lying because it doesn't address the issue. A logical person would respond with "That's great, now what IS going on with lag, and what are you doing to address it?" instead the Internet loves to turn it into a fight over picking apart a dozen of Bungie employees' words to show any inconsistencies (some real, some a stretch, and some imagined) across a year+ period. And people wonder why Bungie isn't more transparent.
</rant>
Sadly, the "What about this Bungie" is actually fanboys like myself hoping that the issue is fixable, and presenting wishful thinking that the problem is something easy to patch. But Bungie has now shut down the only "fixable" issues that the community can think of. Not sure if you read my above post, but it now appears that whatever is responsible is pretty much relegated to the fundamental structure upon which the pvp netcode is built. Which means that the problems with destiny pvp are very, very, very unlikely to ever be fixed in Destiny 1.
This THAB post (and all of them, really) also reeks of avoiding the real issues with the pvp, how frustrating it is, how easy it is to exploit, and how often lag is a large factor in combat success and failures. Instead of acknowledging that there are problems, bungie is saying "those things you're accusing us of aren't true" while ignoring that the accusations are only attempts to explain the larger and obvious issues with pvp reliability.
It amuses me
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, November 19, 2016, 20:22 (3018 days ago) @ Kahzgul
This THAB post (and all of them, really) also reeks of avoiding the real issues with the pvp, how frustrating it is, how easy it is to exploit, and how often lag is a large factor in combat success and failures. Instead of acknowledging that there are problems, bungie is saying "those things you're accusing us of aren't true" while ignoring that the accusations are only attempts to explain the larger and obvious issues with pvp reliability.
Understand that Bungie doesn't have the resources to do significant work on the PvP code for Destiny. All hands are on deck with Destiny 2. You will simply have to wait until 2017 for anything to improve. Just like the Marathon 2 patch that never came! :-p
Players will drop out, the pool will get worse, and so will your matches, causing more players to drop out…
If the experience is so bad (in my experience it's not that bad at all, but I play very little these days), then you should just wait and come back for Des2ny.
It amuses me
This THAB post (and all of them, really) also reeks of avoiding the real issues with the pvp, how frustrating it is, how easy it is to exploit, and how often lag is a large factor in combat success and failures. Instead of acknowledging that there are problems, bungie is saying "those things you're accusing us of aren't true" while ignoring that the accusations are only attempts to explain the larger and obvious issues with pvp reliability.
Understand that Bungie doesn't have the resources to do significant work on the PvP code for Destiny. All hands are on deck with Destiny 2. You will simply have to wait until 2017 for anything to improve. Just like the Marathon 2 patch that never came! :-pPlayers will drop out, the pool will get worse, and so will your matches, causing more players to drop out…
If the experience is so bad (in my experience it's not that bad at all, but I play very little these days), then you should just wait and come back for Des2ny.
I fully understand that, which is why this latest THAB is so depressing.
It amuses me
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Saturday, November 19, 2016, 20:44 (3018 days ago) @ Kahzgul
And honestly, your post didn't bother me very much because you're not calling the whole thing a conspiracy. It's the crazy echo chamber (not on here) of "Bungie is lying about SBMM!" that's driving me up the wall. I completely agree there are some matchmaking and netcode issues (as well as their communication concerning it), but they are not lying to us about what they said. Why would they even lie about SBMM?
And honestly, your post didn't bother me very much because you're not calling the whole thing a conspiracy. It's the crazy echo chamber (not on here) of "Bungie is lying about SBMM!" that's driving me up the wall. I completely agree there are some matchmaking and netcode issues (as well as their communication concerning it), but they are not lying to us about what they said. Why would they even lie about SBMM?
This is pure supposition on my part, based on what Bungie has told us combined with the common experiences of many players;
Some members of the community seem to believe that matchmaking can only be focused on 1 criteria; SBMM or connection quality, for example. We know that's not the case. We know matchmaking searches based on a hierarchy of criteria. Taking what Bungie tells us at face value, we know that connection quality is the top priority. Why then does the crucible suffer from lag and latency issues so frequently? Well the most logical explaination is that the netcode really is that bad (from a PvP standpoint). Those games filled with yellow and red bar players, magical kill-trades, shots through walls or around corners, etc... those really are the best connections available at that time. I have played many Crucible matches that ran relatively well (not "best in class", but acceptable), so I'm sure Destiny's netcode is capable of running a decent game. It could just be the case that conditions need to be absolutely ideal for that to happen. Anything below near-perfect conditions, and things go very wrong.
It amuses me
by dogcow , Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Monday, November 21, 2016, 19:18 (3016 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
Some members of the community seem to believe that matchmaking can only be focused on 1 criteria; SBMM or connection quality, for example. We know that's not the case. We know matchmaking searches based on a hierarchy of criteria. Taking what Bungie tells us at face value, we know that connection quality is the top priority. Why then does the crucible suffer from lag and latency issues so frequently? Well the most logical explaination is that the netcode really is that bad (from a PvP standpoint). Those games filled with yellow and red bar players, magical kill-trades, shots through walls or around corners, etc... those really are the best connections available at that time.
Just some of my ruminations on the matter here...
People need to realize that these matchmaking algorithms aren't just running from their own perspective. They need to remember that these algorithms are run for people who have a crappy connection. Perhaps the crappy-connection-person's 'net' has caught you & that's why you get matched up w/ red bars. This may not account for all of the red bars, but it certainly could explain how you get matched up with one or two, or with a fireteam with a few of them.
I wonder if the population of Destiny has a higher percentage of red-bars than other games... perhaps, of all the pvp games these crappy-connection-people have Destiny provides the best experience?
It amuses me
by Pyromancy , Monday, November 21, 2016, 21:32 (3016 days ago) @ dogcow
edited by Pyromancy, Monday, November 21, 2016, 21:45
Some members of the community seem to believe that matchmaking can only be focused on 1 criteria; SBMM or connection quality, for example. We know that's not the case. We know matchmaking searches based on a hierarchy of criteria. Taking what Bungie tells us at face value, we know that connection quality is the top priority. Why then does the crucible suffer from lag and latency issues so frequently? Well the most logical explaination is that the netcode really is that bad (from a PvP standpoint). Those games filled with yellow and red bar players, magical kill-trades, shots through walls or around corners, etc... those really are the best connections available at that time.
Just some of my ruminations on the matter here...
People need to realize that these matchmaking algorithms aren't just running from their own perspective. They need to remember that these algorithms are run for people who have a crappy connection. Perhaps the crappy-connection-person's 'net' has caught you & that's why you get matched up w/ red bars. This may not account for all of the red bars, but it certainly could explain how you get matched up with one or two, or with a fireteam with a few of them.
I wonder if the population of Destiny has a higher percentage of red-bars than other games... perhaps, of all the pvp games these crappy-connection-people have Destiny provides the best experience?
I don't know how these things work. My observations might be way off base.
I noticed during Iron Banner, especially Supremacy Iron Banner, that it seemed there were more red bars than usual. That could be very subjective as I don't play a whole ton of PvP aside from Iron Banner.
During Supremacy Iron Banner I felt like there was always at least 1 red bar on each team, or two red bars on one team. Consistently. I wondered if the 2 red bars play host, and all the extra objects/crests littered on the map require extra bandwidth/load to pinpoint, track, and update. What if certain red bars are people with the best connection playing host, and don't actually necessarily have poor connection? I tried to consistently report bad connection so that if there is a wrinkle like that, that maybe a pattern would be able to be formed at HQ
What if the in game connection bar we see is not a fully accurate representation at all times? There have been cell phones in the past that do not show an accurate connection strength with the "signal bars". In the past there is no science or standards to the number of bars indicated on a cell phone, it is more-so UI than a fully accurized representation, at the whim of each manufacturer and wireless provider
As a "lower-end of connection quality" player...
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Monday, November 21, 2016, 21:43 (3016 days ago) @ Pyromancy
I've wondered this too. There are some games where I'm a clear red bar and some games where I'm a red bar but the game is smooth (false red bar, though false yellows happen more often). Clear greens and false greens too.
It amuses me
And honestly, your post didn't bother me very much because you're not calling the whole thing a conspiracy. It's the crazy echo chamber (not on here) of "Bungie is lying about SBMM!" that's driving me up the wall. I completely agree there are some matchmaking and netcode issues (as well as their communication concerning it), but they are not lying to us about what they said. Why would they even lie about SBMM?
Thanks. I really do try to be reasonable!
I don't think Bungie is lying, but it does feel like they're avoiding the elephant in the room: Destiny pvp has loads of depth and potential but is hamstrung by shoddy netcode with frequent latency issues. And Bungie's silence sounds like they're ignoring the problem, which does not bode well for Destiny 2.
Of course, Bungie's track record is not good when it comes to telling the truth and SBMM because they have provably lied about it in the past. So I understand why people wouldn't just believe them. The communication really sucks. Bungie needs a "come to Jesus" moment in regards to their pvp experience. Between Battlefield 1, Titanfall 2, and Call of Duty 2145 or whatever it is (the first ad I saw for it, I thought it was a new halo game, no joke), the pvp arena on consoles is full of stellar performers and Destiny 1 simply does not compete on a fundamental level, even though the actual gameplay (sans network issues) could easily be the gold standard. Instead, I'm looking for anything to take my pvp time away from Destiny because I just don't need that level of disappointment and frustration in my life.
But it's not actually *useful* information
People don't really care about they why of the lag. This was just the current popular theory, but if it's false it changes nothing. The lag is still a problem.
To me it seems like if you went to the doctor complaining about tennis elbow. The doctor says "No, it's not tennis elbow" then sends you on your way. But you still have an injured elbow, and the doctor has done nothing to help. Who benefits from this scenario?
I'd be much, much more interested in hearing why there's a problem in the first place than just hearing about what it's not.
But it's not actually *useful* information
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Sunday, November 20, 2016, 15:20 (3017 days ago) @ someotherguy
And I completely agree with you, my argument is not defending Bungie's silence, it's that the reaction from the community is bewildering. Instead of saying anything even resembling what you're saying they are all saying that Bungie is lying about SBMM. With your doctor scenario if you responded to him sending you away with "you're lying, it IS tennis elbow!" you still look like a crazy person.
Do not be amused.
by Korny , Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Monday, November 21, 2016, 19:31 (3016 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by Korny, Monday, November 21, 2016, 19:36
I'm not a game developer. I wasn't there to witness all the work that went into creating every aspect of Destiny's PvP experience. All I know is that, along with a few elements that I really love, Destiny PvP is frequently a frustrating experience on many levels. From connection issues to balance problems to map/gametype designs to weapons that don't seem to behave the way players expect them too, etc. The average crucible match has me saying "oh COME ON" out of exasperation/frustration at least once per minute.
And yet, I've had a much different experience. Destiny has consistently been one of the most reliable games that I've played. When there is an issuee, it's usually limited to one player, or to the people who are actually red/low-yellow bars. Overall, the game always plays well, and I haven't been dropped from a game in ages.
I've already put close to 30 hours into Titanfall 2 PvP, and I have had precisely ZERO moments of frustration so far.
That's funny. I recall us having numerous issues with trying to connect, getting dropped, and playing some really buggy games (you yourself pointed out that you were getting major lag in that one game where I was MVP and you were at the bottom of the scorecard (I know that likely doesn't narrow down any specific games, but...), and then you got flat-out dropped the next match).
I do often find myself sitting and watching the enemy kill cams to see how I died, and while 9 times out of 10, it's totally acceptable, I've seen a few instances where the enemy that killed me shouldn't have been able to.
In the end, it is anecdotal. If you remember, CheapLEY talked about how wonderful Halo 5's dedicated servers worked, and I recently borrowed an Xbone to play some Halo, and I kept getting this on the one match that I played. So yeh.
I think Destiny does it better than most other games, so I'm with Bungie in this instance. Now if only ammo boxes worked more reliably...
Whats in Anaheim? Any famous race tracks? (SRL hype?)
by Pyromancy , Saturday, November 19, 2016, 18:05 (3018 days ago) @ CyberKN
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Disneyland? Angel Stadium? Lots of strip malls?
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If I was a betting man...
by CyberKN , Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Saturday, November 19, 2016, 21:01 (3018 days ago) @ Pyromancy