This is insane. I have not seen a single other game with as many blunders when it comes to patches. Their rangefinder change does the opposite of what it is supposed to on shotguns shortening the time to aim down sights.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EKHTfOrAnS4&t=0s

Ha! I came here to post the same thing. From reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/5u4wfq/a_frame_analysis_of_the_quickdraw_nerf/

See, this is why I'm going to wait a month before even thinking about buying D2.

At least.

As much as I love the game, at its core, its surrounded itself in a sea of bad decisions. They can't seem to implement ideas they've already perfected in previous games. Content, even with years of development, is trivial. Between this and other issues, it seems like either the Activision thing or people leaving for 343i caused IQs to drop sharply.

At this point, theirs no excuse. I mean, I made a lot of them at launch because I was so glad to finally have the game in my hands. Biggest one I heard was how they'd never done this kind of game before. Blizzard, to my knowledge, hasn't done a team FPS before, though. Overwatch is still the strongest PVP experience I've had in awhile.

I'm really, really hoping D2 redeems this series big time.

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This post was typed as they talked on the live stream. They said it "Decreased the time" to aim down site when using rangefinder. So they actually nailed it on the live stream even though they said opposite of what they meant to happen.

But it ain't coming from Bungie...

Also, there's only one N in "inept", but irony makes me giggle...

126670

It doesn't seem like the video shows the other perks on those weapons. Is it possible the one with rangefinder also has a perk that improves weapon handling? Or, the one without rangefinder has one that worsens handling?

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I've got two nearly identical Matadors I could test this with. I can configure them so that the only difference is one has Rangefinder and the other has Cascade. I have zero video editing skills or tools, so I'd have to send the clips to someone else to do the frame-by-frame comparison, but I can grab the clips if anyone is interested in piecing them together.

-Disciple

I've got two nearly identical Matadors I could test this with. I can configure them so that the only difference is one has Rangefinder and the other has Cascade. I have zero video editing skills or tools, so I'd have to send the clips to someone else to do the frame-by-frame comparison, but I can grab the clips if anyone is interested in piecing them together.

-Disciple

I'm on the job. Send them my way!

Cool. I'll grab 'em as soon as I get home from work today.

-Disciple

The Dude was in an amazing example of architecture from the 60's

Great photos and information about it here.
http://jamesfgoldstein.com/?page_id=881

http://www.npr.org/2016/02/18/464696418/this-house-is-a-work-of-art-so-the-owner-is-donating-it-to-a-museum

http://la.curbed.com/2016/2/17/11080400/sheats-goldstein-house-lacma-history-photos

Not practical really.... but look at this sink

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"We have decreased ADS time...by 25%"

"We have decreased ADS time...by 25%"

Patch notes say the opposite.

"We have decreased ADS time...by 25%"

Patch notes say the opposite.

exactly lol. not sure how they messed this up.

"We have decreased ADS time...by 25%"

Patch notes say the opposite.

exactly lol. not sure how they messed this up.

I guess to some extent it's understandable. You'd want all your best people on Des2ny, so who's left for Destiny updates would basically be the Z team.

"We have decreased ADS time...by 25%"

Patch notes say the opposite.

exactly lol. not sure how they messed this up.

Or... maybe... it does exactly what it's supposed to do, they accidentally typed 'increases' instead of 'decreases'. It's a typo - sort of like 'innept'.

(In other words - it's not inept, it's a small, 2-letter mistake.)

"We have decreased ADS time...by 25%"

Patch notes say the opposite.

exactly lol. not sure how they messed this up.

Or... maybe... it does exactly what it's supposed to do, they accidentally typed 'increases' instead of 'decreases'. It's a typo - sort of like 'innept'.

(In other words - it's not inept, it's a small, 2-letter mistake.)

Judging by the spirit of the nerfs to the shotguns, there is no way that they intended for a perk that adds range to shotguns to be able to speed up aim down sights. Increasing the time to aim with rangefinder makes the most sense. Patch notes are ostensibly proofread. People talking on the fly aren't.

And well, in this case two letters mean all the difference don't they? Big difference between the two possibilities. Adding one 'n' doesn't confuse the meaning :-)

15:39

"For rangefinder on shotguns, which is a key perk (I would say) for the Matador 64, we have decreased your ADS time... uh, so the time that it takes to go from hip into ADS by 25% on that perk. Uh, and so, that just gives you a reason that you, ya know, rangefinder isn't necessarily always the best, and again, because you- we are pushing you into a position where you WANT to aim that gun, now rangefinder still boosts your range but you pay for it a little bit by having to slowly move into ADS."

"We have decreased ADS time...by 25%"

Patch notes say the opposite.

exactly lol. not sure how they messed this up.

Or... maybe... it does exactly what it's supposed to do, they accidentally typed 'increases' instead of 'decreases'. It's a typo - sort of like 'innept'.

(In other words - it's not inept, it's a small, 2-letter mistake.)

Judging by the spirit of the nerfs to the shotguns, there is no way that they intended for a perk that adds range to shotguns to be able to speed up aim down sights. Increasing the time to aim with rangefinder makes the most sense. Patch notes are ostensibly proofread. People talking on the fly aren't.

And well, in this case two letters mean all the difference don't they? Big difference between the two possibilities. Adding one 'n' doesn't confuse the meaning :-)

Okay. I don't know which one is wrong (though from CyberKN's followup, it seems like maybe the patch notes are right and the stream was wrong) - i was just suggesting that before you start shouting about ineptitude, maybe you get all the facts first. (If you turn out to be right, THEN you can shout.) That was all.

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15:39

"For rangefinder on shotguns, which is a key perk (I would say) for the Matador 64, we have decreased your ADS time... uh, so the time that it takes to go from hip into ADS by 25% on that perk. Uh, and so, that just gives you a reason that you, ya know, rangefinder isn't necessarily always the best, and again, because you- we are pushing you into a position where you WANT to aim that gun, now rangefinder still boosts your range but you pay for it a little bit by having to slowly move into ADS."

So they said something and the game works like they said (assuming that no other perk is affecting handling).

But they also said something else (although a decreased ADS time would indeed make you want to aim that gun as they say), and the patch notes (written up by someone else) line up with what they said then.

Sounds like the issue is communication.

"We have decreased ADS time...by 25%"

Patch notes say the opposite.

exactly lol. not sure how they messed this up.

Or... maybe... it does exactly what it's supposed to do, they accidentally typed 'increases' instead of 'decreases'. It's a typo - sort of like 'innept'.

(In other words - it's not inept, it's a small, 2-letter mistake.)

Judging by the spirit of the nerfs to the shotguns, there is no way that they intended for a perk that adds range to shotguns to be able to speed up aim down sights. Increasing the time to aim with rangefinder makes the most sense. Patch notes are ostensibly proofread. People talking on the fly aren't.

And well, in this case two letters mean all the difference don't they? Big difference between the two possibilities. Adding one 'n' doesn't confuse the meaning :-)

Okay. I don't know which one is wrong (though from CyberKN's followup, it seems like maybe the patch notes are right and the stream was wrong) - i was just suggesting that before you start shouting about ineptitude, maybe you get all the facts first. (If you turn out to be right, THEN you can shout.) That was all.

They still applied the health regen to everything instead of one thing. Inept.

I'm not going to transcribe the whole thing, but immediately before the provided quote on Rangefinder, Josh is talking about how they have removed some of the aim assist on shotguns, but only while firing from the hip.

Hence the reason you would want to ADS with a shotgun, because it grants you improved aim assist.

Okay. I don't know which one is wrong (though from CyberKN's followup, it seems like maybe the patch notes are right and the stream was wrong) - i was just suggesting that before you start shouting about ineptitude, maybe you get all the facts first. (If you turn out to be right, THEN you can shout.) That was all.

They still applied the health regen to everything instead of one thing. Inept.

"Buffed! They made Truth more powerful."

"No, they nerfed truth."

"They didn't nerf low-RoF Pulse rifles though. Buffed! I was right!"

15:39

"For rangefinder on shotguns, which is a key perk (I would say) for the Matador 64, we have decreased your ADS time... uh, so the time that it takes to go from hip into ADS by 25% on that perk. Uh, and so, that just gives you a reason that you, ya know, rangefinder isn't necessarily always the best, and again, because you- we are pushing you into a position where you WANT to aim that gun, now rangefinder still boosts your range but you pay for it a little bit by having to slowly move into ADS."

I promise I'm not taking the quote out of context. I just really find it amusing that the product that was delivered (faster ADS speed w/ rangefinder) is what they stated in the first part of that segment. It should by all accounts be slower according to the second part of their statement and the patch notes.

I just find this entire situation funny.

Ok, so from the looks of things:

During the livestream, Bungie said 2 contradictory things about Rangefinder's new ADS stat. They said:

"We have decreased ADS time... by 25%".

They then went on to say:

"we are pushing you into a position where you WANT to aim that gun, now rangefinder still boosts your range but you pay for it a little bit by having to slowly move into ADS."

The first statement lines up with what actually happens in the game since the patch. The second statement matches what was released in the patch notes. Also, the second statement makes sense from a logical point of view, within the context of the discussion. They were saying that they wanted to add a slight trade-off to the rangefinder perk. Speeding up the ADS time certainly wouldn't do that. Slowing down the ADS time does.

So, I think it is reasonable to assume that the designers' intention was to have ADS take a tiny bit longer with the rangefinder perk activated. Meaning the change that actually shipped in the game is a mistake.

Then there is the question of "how did this happen?". There are a few possible explanations I can think of, all of them pure speculation, none of them fully satisfying. And on a certain level, none of that matters. It appears to be a mistake. If that is the case, it will get fixed. The community in general is quick to overreact to this kind of thing, but that's what happens when the trust between community and developer isn't as strong as it maybe could be. Bungie's communication has been hit and miss, as has their balancing efforts with the game itself. I think that is the bigger issue. It takes them months to release balance tweaks (not a criticism, just a fact), so Destiny players get a bit steamed when an update finally does come out, only to introduce new problems, sometimes through changes that weren't even intentional.

I just think this whole attitude is baked into the culture of the larger Destiny community at this point in time. Some players love the game as it is. Others decided it wasn't for them and stopped playing a long time ago. But there is a very large chunk of players that lie somewhere in the middle. Players that love parts of the game and/or see a larger, greater potential in what the game could be... and they're waiting. They had problems with vanilla Destiny, but The Dark Below was coming soon, and that would fix all their problems... ok, that didn't pan out. TDB was rushed too, but that's ok because House of Wolves won't be out for a long time so Bungie will have time to make it everything we hope it will be... ok, that didn't pan out either. Etc, etc, etc.

The community in general is quick to overreact to this kind of thing, but that's what happens when the trust between community and developer isn't as strong as it maybe could be. Bungie's communication has been hit and miss, as has their balancing efforts with the game itself. I think that is the bigger issue. It takes them months to release balance tweaks (not a criticism, just a fact), so Destiny players get a bit steamed when an update finally does come out, only to introduce new problems, sometimes through changes that weren't even intentional.

Moving forward, they very much need to try to start doing smaller fixes more frequently. It's much easier to get things right when you make small changes to get to where you need to go progressively, than to make large ones and overshoot, only to overshoot on the way back staring the pendulum going.

Hopefully their tool set for Des2ny will make this a possibility.

The community in general is quick to overreact to this kind of thing, but that's what happens when the trust between community and developer isn't as strong as it maybe could be. Bungie's communication has been hit and miss, as has their balancing efforts with the game itself. I think that is the bigger issue. It takes them months to release balance tweaks (not a criticism, just a fact), so Destiny players get a bit steamed when an update finally does come out, only to introduce new problems, sometimes through changes that weren't even intentional.

Moving forward, they very much need to try to start doing smaller fixes more frequently. It's much easier to get things right when you make small changes to get to where you need to go progressively, than to make large ones and overshoot, only to overshoot on the way back staring the pendulum going.

Hopefully their tool set for Des2ny will make this a possibility.

In my brain, that makes the most sense... but I know virtually nothing about Bungie's internal development process, or why updates are spaced out as they are.

I can't help but think of Respawn's approach to balance updates: say as little as possible.

Bungie gives us all this information, some of which ends up being contradictory and causes all this confusion and speculation, none of which is based on the actual gameplay experience of playing Destiny post-patch. Respawn would have said "we tweaked shotguns" and released the patch the next day. Nobody would be freaking out about miscommunications, and everyone would just be playing the game and getting a feel for it with a relatively open mind.

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So, I think it is reasonable to assume that the designers' intention was to have ADS take a tiny bit longer with the rangefinder perk activated. Meaning the change that actually shipped in the game is a mistake.

Yes, of course it is. It seems really obvious to me that this is exactly what was intended, and I'm super weirded out that everyone's debating it. It's like that dress picture all over again.

That being said, I think we really need to wait until the test results from two otherwise-identical shotguns are posted so we can be sure that a mistake even occurred.

Betcha $5 had it never been said, y'all never would have noticed anything.

All up in here with your "he said / they said" squabble gobble like a bunch of teenage girls reading Tiger Beat "Donnie's the cutest! No Joey is!" - That's you guys.

You know what ol' Jack Burton says in a time like this?

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All you jabronies just woke up the Village Idiot, ManKitten's back and I aim to misbehave.

Not quite a perfect match like I thought. One has Cascade and Close and/or Personal, the other has Performance Bonus and Rangefinder. The other two perks are the same, though.

Cascade & Close and/or Personal

Performance Bonus & Rangefinder

-Disciple

Rangefinder - 7 frames
Non Rangefinder - 10 frames

You ADS 30% faster with rangefinder in your example.

Not quite a perfect match like I thought. One has Cascade and Close and/or Personal, the other has Performance Bonus and Rangefinder. The other two perks are the same, though.

Good enough IMO. None of the non-matching perks are anything that would affect ADS speed. For the purposes of this test, I think they can be considered identical.

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Hear hear!

I think you've nailed the whole thing right on the head here. From Bungie's process and communication to the community reactions. Very well said.

Come on. Joey looks like if Fred Savage was a girl.

That being said, Joey is a super nice guy. Also, He keeps the sheet music to "Hangin' Tough" on his piano at all times. Gotta appreciate a good sense of humor there. Plus his wife made me a quesadilla. So good people all around.

That being said, Joey is a super nice guy. Also, He keeps the sheet music to "Hangin' Tough" on his piano at all times. Gotta appreciate a good sense of humor there. Plus his wife made me a quesadilla. So good people all around.

(Not insinuating you as a fibber. Totally joking, hopefully its not 'too soon')