With all the talk about the Mini NES, many have suggested doing it with a Raspberry Pi instead. In short: don't. Everything looks fucking disgusting, and getting it to look right often has you having to research and change settings on a per game basis. And even then it's not right.

Here's Zelda running on a real NES and a CRT on the left, and it running on the Pi and an HDTV on the right.

Now look at both screens. Notice anything?

Oh yeah, everything is stretched, and link is fucking fat.

Even after hours of searching, and claimed solutions, I cannot get retropie to display games properly. Nothing worked.

Also input lag. SO MUCH INPUT LAG.

Don't even waste your time. I don't even want to talk about setup.

I have the fastest version too. I'm going to try overclocking it, but I don't think it will help much.

I have the fastest version too. I'm going to try overclocking it, but I don't think it will help much.

It's completely unplayable. I honestly have no idea how people can not mention this when it comes to making these things. Thankfully I'll be able to return it to amazon.

It's completely unplayable. I honestly have no idea how people can not mention this when it comes to making these things. Thankfully I'll be able to return it to amazon.

Well you get some input lag from the emulation regardless, but I think people forget how smooth the original was. At first I thought it was just because that's the way old games were, then I pulled them up on my laptop to realize that it's not supposed to be that way.

Oh well, I'm sure I can find a use for it. At least the Raspberry Pi is cheap.

I wish I had the money for a Framemeister, but it just never actually makes it to the top of the priority list. Some day, maybe.

Well you get some input lag from the emulation regardless,

If I instead hook my Macbook Pro up to the television and run an emulator there, the input lag is completely gone, or at least low enough that action games are playable with out me noticing. Whatever software and settings retropie uses are just substandard. I remember playing a SNES emulator on a 60Mhz PPC 601 back in the 90s, and recall no input lag at all and full speed games. And the Pi is a bazillion times faster!

There's also the annoying issue of the thing being too light, and so it's very easy to move around when you pull on your controller or something.

I just have no good things to say about this experiment.

- No text -

There's this guitar company called "Collings" out of Texas... they make very high-end, hand-made acoustic and electric guitars. Most of their guitars sell for $3500-$6000 USD. Incredible instruments. Some of the very best guitars ever made.

Collings recently launched a sub-brand called "Waterloo". The guitars they build under this label are recreations of some of the off-brand acoustics built in the 1930s. Like all of Collings' guitars, these Waterloo models are flawlessly built, with a painstaking attention to detail. The problem is that the 1930s guitars that the Waterloos are replicating were without a doubt some of the worst sounding guitars ever made. They were cheap, bargain bin instruments back in the day... and now you can buy a perfect recreation of those lousy instruments for almost $3000 USD. Sounds a bit silly, right?

That's exactly how I feel about the painstaking lengths people go through in order to play vintage video games in their original state. I certainly don't begrudge anyone for enjoying old games... I just seem to be missing the part of my brain that can find any appeal to it. They look bad, sound bad, and play worse than modern games. I loved them growing up because it was all I had... but video games today are so much better in every conceivable way. I'm all for nostalgia, but the quality gap between retro games and modern games is so severe that even nostalgia doesn't generate any interest for me in ever playing those games again.

All that said, I do appreciate the need to preserve retro games, purely from an archival point of view.

Again, don't mean to sound judgemental of anyone who does enjoy retro games. They just have zero appeal for me personally.

- No text -

I think part of the appeal is that modern consoles don't really have any good split screen games anymore. A lot of the fun I find in these retro games are the multiplayer aspects.

I see where you're coming from, and I even mostly agree. Nostalgia is powerful and blinds most folks as to what old games actually were (which is mostly garbage). There are a few notable exceptions, in my mind though--namely Super Mario Bros. and World, and A Link to the Past. Sure, graphics and gameplay have come a long way since then, but they are the examples of games that still feel like they could be released today and be standout, amazing games.

Unfortunately, there's not a great way to play them anymore, unless you happen to have a good CRT laying around still. I don't, and I don't have the room for one either. I can't just plug a NES or SNES into a modern TV and get anything approaching an acceptable level of playability, and that sucks.

I loved them growing up because it was all I had... but video games today are so much better in every conceivable way.

Almost every way. Design and secrets have regressed in certain aspects. For instance, Zelda's second quest is a blast, but would never ever be made in modern times since they don't trust the player enough in this day and age.

It makes me want to try Breath of the Wild to compare them.

I see where you're coming from, and I even mostly agree. Nostalgia is powerful and blinds most folks as to what old games actually were (which is mostly garbage).

It's true that games are mostly better now. I won't dispute that. But, like Deus Ex, old games sometimes have excellent things to offer that modern games do not.

I still love my old games. Similar arguments from the "Do stories make games better" thread, games of old were just so simple and basic...yet so challenging! Having a notebook to keep notes during games...instead of having the internet.

The challenge of Contra. You and a buddy in the same room slowly progressing through levels trying to remember that trap that last killed you and with each run making it a bit further than before.
Learning the habits of opponents in Punch Out.
Yelling out of joyous frustration at your buddy that killed two virus' in Dr. Mario.
Your friend coming over and showing you a new hidden secret in Mario 3.
Not being able to see your Ninja Turtle on screen because the clipping glitch was so bad!
Chasing your friend in a circle, not realizing he was chasing you in a circle in Twisted Metal.
Goldeneye - nuff said.
When Sonic and Tails could play at the same time.

Games back then just had more joy to them. Games now are too serious and have changed the way we interact with them and each other.

I've never met any of you. Don't know what you look like. You guys & gals are my primary gaming friends and I have no idea who you are. As much as I like you all...I miss my buddy on the couch shoulder checking me and swatting at my hands so I don't make that catch in Madden.

Viva pre 32 bit!

I still love my old games. Similar arguments from the "Do stories make games better" thread, games of old were just so simple and basic...yet so challenging! Having a notebook to keep notes during games...instead of having the internet.

The challenge of Contra. You and a buddy in the same room slowly progressing through levels trying to remember that trap that last killed you and with each run making it a bit further than before.
Learning the habits of opponents in Punch Out.
Yelling out of joyous frustration at your buddy that killed two virus' in Dr. Mario.
Your friend coming over and showing you a new hidden secret in Mario 3.
Not being able to see your Ninja Turtle on screen because the clipping glitch was so bad!
Chasing your friend in a circle, not realizing he was chasing you in a circle in Twisted Metal.
Goldeneye - nuff said.
When Sonic and Tails could play at the same time.

I love those memories as just as you do :)

But for me, going back to replay those games now never comes close to living up to my memories of playing them then.

But for me, going back to replay those games now never comes close to living up to my memories of playing them then.

Same with me. But my issue is, the last game I have memories like that for are Halo 2. Once the online era began, with updates, patches, DLC, and online co-op, new memories have not been made. The simple joy is gone. We now live in a gaming world of constant on-demand fighting for our attention content. And God help the developer that didn't deliver exactly what they promised at E3 last year. Just like movies, game developers have to eat their 'Member Berries and release "New Digital Classic Throwback Vintage Consoles" because we were happy back then and now everything is just shit.

And keeping to the original thread, it sucks that Cody is having issues. I know two people who have build the RasPie and love them. I've thought about building one myself solely for the PS1 emulator...I'm on the fence now. With no disrespect, Cody complains about everything so I have to take his words with some salt. :P

Cody, is there a chance the latency is with your TV? I just bought a new 4k tv, and have to use a special setting for games because the latency was terrible. From the little bit I learned, there was a small window of time where HDTVs were being made that had horrible latency with consoles, hence they started adding the "Gaming" setting in (which is easily the worst looking setting on the tv...but it's the fastest)

Cody, is there a chance the latency is with your TV?

No. Hooking up Macbook Pro to the TV and running an emulator produces no noticeable input latency. Neither do any games on modern consoles. I got the TV specifically because it's fast.

Retropie just sucks.

If you want to play PS1 games… well both the PS2 and the PS3 can do that. Doing it on the PS3 actually looks pretty good on an HDTV. I personally play all my PS1 games on the PS2.

At first I thought it was just because that's the way old games were, then I pulled them up on my laptop to realize that it's not supposed to be that way.

Yeah, it's completely the opposite. On old electronics, there's so little memory for buffering data that low input lag is an inevitable requirement. Consoles in the days of hardware sprites didn't even render an image into RAM, the graphics chips just produced the video data pixel-by-pixel as it gets sent out to the TV.

And the TVs themselves had little to no delays either; at most, some SD CRTs would buffer a couple of lines of video to help filter out dot crawl artifacts.

Even "responsive" 60fps games today tend to be much less responsive than those 60fps NES titles as they were played in the 80s and 90s.

Same with me. But my issue is, the last game I have memories like that for are Halo 2. Once the online era began, with updates, patches, DLC, and online co-op, new memories have not been made. The simple joy is gone.

I feel like that's a "you" issue and not an issue with gaming today. You can ignore all that shit and just play games. It's what I try to do.

The Witcher 3 has given me that joy. I think that's part of why I like it so much--it reminds me of playing Ocarina of Time and Morrowind when I was young. I got sucked into those games as a kid, and The Witcher 3 recaptures that feeling in a way that nothing has literally since Morrowind.

Dishonored gave me that joy. Horizon did too. Hell, even Mass Effect Andromeda did.

Sure, couch co-op is harder to come by, if that's specifically what you're talking about, but modern games are filled with joy. It's hard to not be jaded (believe me, I know--just look at my last post about ABZU, or most of my posts about Destiny), but games are just as filled with joy and wonder as they always have been.

• Overcooked
  
• Helldivers (and Magicka)
  
• Rocket League
  
• Snipper Clips
  
• Spelunky
  
• Gears Of War
  
• Mario Kart
  
• Lovers in a dangerous space time
  
• Sportsfriends
  
• Diablo 3
  
• Videoball

I have no idea WTF yall are talking about re: modern "couch co-op" games and the "fun" being gone

If it's a family event, a friend's ski trip, or just a random dinner party, I have had crazy fun times with hardened gamers and casual gamers alike rocking same screen co-op.

• Overcooked
  
• Helldivers (and Magicka)
  
• Rocket League
  
• Snipper Clips
  
• Spelunky
  
• Gears Of War
  
• Mario Kart
  
• Lovers in a dangerous space time
  
• Sportsfriends
  
• Diablo 3
  
• Videoball

I have no idea WTF yall are talking about re: modern "couch co-op" games and the "fun" being gone

If it's a family event, a friend's ski trip, or just a random dinner party, I have had crazy fun times with hardened gamers and casual gamers alike rocking same screen co-op.

This is pure speculation, but I think nostalgia for retro games has as much to do with age as it does with the games themselves. As we get older, it becomes increasingly rare to truly "lose ourselves" in a game. Look at anyone in their 40s-60s that collects something... what do they collect? Something they loved when they were 10-15 years old. It's all based on Nostalgia.

I haven't enjoyed amother videogame console the way I enjoyed my N64. My years playing those games are the fondest gaming memories I have. But there was nothing done on the N64 that hasn't been done better since (with the possible exception of Kart Racers, but I digress ;p).

I think about this a lot with regards to Halo, actually. I truly believe Bungie's Halo games are better than 343's additions to the series, but even if 343's games were on the same level, I don't think they'd match my feelings for Halo 1-Reach because I'm just not at that point in my life anymore.

Does it really? It seems about the same for me in terms of games which I "lose myself in". I can name dozens from this decade alone, just as I can name dozens from the 90s.

We just get lost in different ways…

Collings recently launched a sub-brand called "Waterloo". The guitars they build under this label are recreations of some of the off-brand acoustics built in the 1930s. Like all of Collings' guitars, these Waterloo models are flawlessly built, with a painstaking attention to detail. The problem is that the 1930s guitars that the Waterloos are replicating were without a doubt some of the worst sounding guitars ever made. They were cheap, bargain bin instruments back in the day... and now you can buy a perfect recreation of those lousy instruments for almost $3000 USD. Sounds a bit silly, right?

So, here's a couple of bicycles I have.

1983 Miyata 710:

2016 Emonda ALR 5:

They've got a lot in common, to where they're arguably about the same bike separated by 30 years. Both are in the midrange of their respective catalogs. They both use double cranksets, and both would have been considered to have reasonably wide-range gearing for their day. Adjusted for era, it could be argued that they have the same color scheme.

And there are plenty of ways to argue that the Emonda is the better bike.
It's several pounds lighter. The brakes are more powerful. There are 11 gears in back rather than 6, and the total gearing range is 50% wider. Because the shifters are integrated into the brake levers rather than positioned on the frame's downtube, shifting while pedaling out of the saddle is practical. The bike features two bosses for mounting bottle cages, rather than one. And so on.
Technologically, it's clear that the Emonda is more sophisticated. For example, the 710's frame is built from cylindrical steel tubes brazed together with the help of lugs; the Emonda's frame is made from aluminum tubes that have been hydroformed into complex shapes and then welded together. The Emonda's shifters are indexed mechanical paddle-shifters, while each shifter on the 710 is just a lever tightened against a friction plate. And so on.

But the differences in experiencing the bicycles are not merely quantitative. The bicycles have different characteristics and temperaments. How the steering sways as the bike is rocked side to side. How the cranks shrug and roll with the pedal stroke, how the bike responds to torque. As the chain whirrs and the wind slices through the wheels and frame, both sing and hum songs, but these songs are not the same.

Is one a better riding experience than the other? Well, what's "better"? There are some circumstances, like steep climbs, where the Emonda can be a bit faster. The difference is hardly significant enough to spoil the old Miyata, though.

The important bit - and why I have the 710 around - is that the Emonda is not simply the same but better. Regardless of how an "objective" reviewer (lol) would rate the two machines, they each usefully flavor experiences in ways the other doesn't.

//===========================

And so about those guitars. Are the Waterloos silly? I don't think so.

Could it be argued that they're "inferior" to a modern high-end guitar? You could certainly make all kinds of arguments in favor of that.
But a modern high-end guitar isn't simply the same but better. They have qualitatively different appearances and audio characteristics. And regardless of the notion of a "bad-sounding guitar", a good guitarist can still seemingly coax good music out of a Waterloo. Does it have its own limitations? Sure, much as my Miyata sucks on steep hills. But that doesn't make the whole thing silly.

//===========================

And this is also part of the reason that vintage games still get played. FPS developers today aren't making "original 1993 Doom, but better." They're practically working within a totally different genre. Regardless of whether modern games can be argued to be "better" or not, if you like the style of play that is OG Doom, you're not trying to find it by playing Battlefield.

//===========================

In some cases, the technology of an era does limit certain things in important ways.

For another bicycle comparison, consider mountain bikes in the early 1980s. That's when they were first going into mass production, but they were extremely primitive compared to what we have today. Frame geometry was still being figured out, some components weren't ruggedized well for the rigors of those styles of riding, shifting systems were clumsy to use while handling the bike on technical trails, brakes weren't beefy enough, and they had rigid forks because suspension forks weren't a thing.
So if your goal is to kick butt on gnarly MTB trails, a very good argument could be made that they're quite obsolete.

Although, vintage rigid mountain bikes were somewhat fortunate. They're kind of just long beefy road frames with big clearances and lots of attachment points, making them incredibly versatile. Many have been turned into all kinds of weird not-mountain-bikes. The 1983 Stumpjumper is a legendary early mountain bike, now mine is this rather versatile machine at home in road pacelines or on loose gravel:

Somethings are less lucky. The first decade from which I'd place films amongst my favorites is probably the 1920s. And even then, it's partly because almost nobody makes films like them anymore. It's very rare to see modern filmmakers use cuts to bang the screen like a drum, for instance, which totally defines everything that Eisenstein made that was any good. By the late 1930s, some films more recognizable "modern" start really appealing to me.

And so I do agree that some games have, perhaps, "truly" aged badly in some sense; that they might have been appealing at the time simply because there weren't alternatives. That maybe defines the issue of working well within limitations.

(And I think I'd probably agree that much of the NES library has "truly" aged to a fair degree. Much moreso than the subsequent generation, which allowed rich production to come through better.)

//===========================

But, at the same time, I think "true" aging gets conflated with a lot of other issues.

Like acclimation.

I'm a pretty big fan of Halo 1, but even I need to play a bit after a long break before I'm back into its rhythm. The warthog's handling can feel "dated" and "bad", until I've taken a moment to get back into the scheme of controlling with momentum and not worrying so much about pinpoint direction. If I were a new player in 2017, in an era where the game doesn't have the initial novelty to encourage me to adopt, perhaps I would be inclined to drop it rather than acclimate.

Similarly, vintage bicycle drivetrains each have a lot of their own character. Feel, shifting patterns, so on. Even someone familiar with vintage drivetrains would have to ride for a few miles to really feel in tune with the bike, to feel like they have mastery. If someone only familiar with modern drivetrains hopped on it, and they even needed to learn how to shift, they might not want to bother with it... whether or not it eventually could have been rewarding.

Is that "true" aging? It's a contextual accessibility issue. I dunno.

//===========================

That's exactly how I feel about the painstaking lengths people go through in order to play vintage video games in their original state.

Playing in their original state is simple. It's because they often...

They look bad, sound bad, and play worse than modern games.

...look, sound, and even play better than they do on inaccurate setups.

CRTs are the simplest example. The way the electron gun turns pixels into blobs is usually better-looking than scaling algorithms used for flat panel displays. Getting accurate colors and contrasts is much easier and more possible. Overscan can actually be useful. Garbly CRT speakers are what the audio was designed around, and can reconstruct the audio more correctly to developer intent and sometimes hide artifacts. The lack of input lag can make the games much more responsive.

Sometimes this seems to hold even for relatively recent stuff, even lots of sixth-gen stuff. Halo 2 sounds much better on my old Trinitron than on my flat panel's speakers.

• Overcooked
  
• Helldivers (and Magicka)
  
• Rocket League
  
• Snipper Clips
  
• Spelunky
  
• Gears Of War
  
• Mario Kart
  
• Lovers in a dangerous space time
  
• Sportsfriends
  
• Diablo 3
  
• Videoball

I have no idea WTF yall are talking about re: modern "couch co-op" games and the "fun" being gone

If it's a family event, a friend's ski trip, or just a random dinner party, I have had crazy fun times with hardened gamers and casual gamers alike rocking same screen co-op.

This is pure speculation, but I think nostalgia for retro games has as much to do with age as it does with the games themselves. As we get older, it becomes increasingly rare to truly "lose ourselves" in a game. Look at anyone in their 40s-60s that collects something... what do they collect? Something they loved when they were 10-15 years old. It's all based on Nostalgia.

I haven't enjoyed amother videogame console the way I enjoyed my N64. My years playing those games are the fondest gaming memories I have. But there was nothing done on the N64 that hasn't been done better since (with the possible exception of Kart Racers, but I digress ;p).

I think about this a lot with regards to Halo, actually. I truly believe Bungie's Halo games are better than 343's additions to the series, but even if 343's games were on the same level, I don't think they'd match my feelings for Halo 1-Reach because I'm just not at that point in my life anymore.

Nothing will ever match living within a mile of my middle school and high school and the hey day of Starcraft, Smash Brothers, Goldeneye, and Halo LAN parties.

Though I know for sure that if Destiny was out in High School I may not have graduated...

• Overcooked
  
• Helldivers (and Magicka)
  
• Rocket League
  
• Snipper Clips
  
• Spelunky
  
• Gears Of War
  
• Mario Kart
  
• Lovers in a dangerous space time
  
• Sportsfriends
  
• Diablo 3
  
• Videoball

I have no idea WTF yall are talking about re: modern "couch co-op" games and the "fun" being gone

If it's a family event, a friend's ski trip, or just a random dinner party, I have had crazy fun times with hardened gamers and casual gamers alike rocking same screen co-op.

This is pure speculation, but I think nostalgia for retro games has as much to do with age as it does with the games themselves. As we get older, it becomes increasingly rare to truly "lose ourselves" in a game. Look at anyone in their 40s-60s that collects something... what do they collect? Something they loved when they were 10-15 years old. It's all based on Nostalgia.

Maybe I should be grateful that all I had was pong and Mattel electronic football. Don't have a lot of time for gaming nostalgia if I felt it regardless. And I don't know what it says that my favorite Halo game came out when I was 46.

And I don't know what it says that my favorite Halo game came out when I was 46.

It means you should change your name to Kermit the Gray.

And I don't know what it says that my favorite Halo game came out when I was 46.

It means you should change your name to Kermit the Gray.

LOL. I do have a few gray hairs now. I don't mind. Beggars can't be choosers.

- No text -

Great post!

Lots to talk about here, but there's one point in particular that I want to clarify a little:

And so about those guitars. Are the Waterloos silly? I don't think so.

Could it be argued that they're "inferior" to a modern high-end guitar? You could certainly make all kinds of arguments in favor of that.
But a modern high-end guitar isn't simply the same but better. They have qualitatively different appearances and audio characteristics. And regardless of the notion of a "bad-sounding guitar", a good guitarist can still seemingly coax good music out of a Waterloo. Does it have its own limitations? Sure, much as my Miyata sucks on steep hills. But that doesn't make the whole thing silly.

//===========================

Here's the thing: modern guitars can, and often do, sound identical to vintage ones. Your point about preferences (what sounds "good" is subjective) is completely valid. But that's not where my point is leaning. You can build a guitar that sounds identical to the old 30's department store guitars for just a few hundred dollars. There is no magic "mojo" behind these instruments. They sound the way they do because of the materials used, the bracing patterns, and the quality of parts & hardware. All of these elements can be duplicated perfectly. Other modern guitar makers already do it.

I don't find it silly that people want a guitar that is a recreation of a cheap, department-store guitar from the 30s. I find it silly that anyone would think it is worth paying close to $3K for a recreation of a cheap, budget instrument. It's like if Ferrari built a perfect replica of an 80s hatchback and charged $400K for it. It just isn't necessary or justifiable.

That's where I'm coming from when it comes to people who spend large amounts of money to "perfectly replicate" the look, sound, and feel of retro games. In every way that can be measured, they never looked or sounded good in the first place. Again, there's no accounting for taste... but that's the "nostalgia" factor I was talking about.