Grimoir is dead, long live the grimoir

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/05/21/bungie-is-ditching-grimoire-cards-in-destiny-2/#5ca9741e3d52

Overall I think this is a good thing. Not just killing the separate grimoir concept, but also moving those narrative nuggets out of dense blocks of text.

Otoh, some on the most compelling stories in the destiny lite come from here, sand I'm not sure if there's another outlet for stuff like the book of sorrows without it.

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I like the news but I find it strange that this is the source.

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Seems like lots of media sources are asking crapola quesitions, he seems like he just asked a direct relevant question and got a direct relevant answer.

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I expected such news to be delivered directly to and from better known game mag sites.

I'm not surprised it arrived late. This was bad news for some fans and Bungie probably was already feeling heat over the lack of 60fps on PS4 Pro. They may have sole sourced it to him on condition it not be released until today.

I'm starting to see better known game mag sites linking to the story, so it's probably legit.

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This was bad news for some fans and Bungie probably was already feeling heat over the lack of 60fps on PS4 Pro.

Are they? Is that something people legitimately expected?

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I'm not surprised it arrived late. This was bad news for some fans and Bungie probably was already feeling heat over the lack of 60fps on PS4 Pro. They may have sole sourced it to him on condition it not be released until today.

Key word there is "some." As in few. The general feeling in the fan community is that the out-of-game Grimoire was no bueno. Some just didn't care about it, but even among those who did like the content (like myself), most felt that its implementation felt like an afterthought at best. Not everyone will agree, of course, but the idea that there would be some big uproar over this change strikes me as odd.

Personally, I won't miss the web implementation at all - its out-of-the-way location meant that I didn't spend as much time perusing it as I do some of the lore pages in other games. But I liked the stories it told, and I hope the new game finds a way to still have them. Even something as simple as putting the same sort of content in hidden areas of the game (which starts to sound like Reach's data pads) would be welcome.

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i was hoping that grimoire got revamped, instead of being pretty much the sole source of story, to be more like flavor text on gear, but with a little more relevance. and to continue the grimoire score.

according to Destinytracker, my grimoire is in the Top 3%, so i'm sad to see that it won't live on in Destiny 2.

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https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/05/21/bungie-is-ditching-grimoire-cards-in-destiny-2/#5ca9741e3d52

Overall I think this is a good thing. Not just killing the separate grimoir concept, but also moving those narrative nuggets out of dense blocks of text.

Otoh, some on the most compelling stories in the destiny lite come from here, sand I'm not sure if there's another outlet for stuff like the book of sorrows without it.

To your second point, dense blocks of text are underrated and evocative in ways other methods of storytelling are not. I hope Bungie doesn't make 343's mistake.

I said before that the problem isn't the Grimoire and it's not even that big of a problem that it isn't in the game, except that it is such a contrast to what is in the game, especially vanilla Destiny. I want a great story as much as anyone, along with great, compelling cutscenes that give us a reason to care about the action, but please don't scrimp on the flavor text and the excellent written stories that were so amazing in Destiny 1, and prompted us to wonder at mysteries and imagine what we couldn't see.

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The problem wasn't that the grimoire existed, it was that they used it as a stand-in for telling a story through their game. The grimoire would be an excellent secondary source standing alongside a great campaign. I'm a bummed that they just dropped it completely.

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The problem wasn't that the grimoire existed, it was that they used it as a stand-in for telling a story through their game.

I mostly agree with this, although I still think having it exist strictly out-of-game was a poor choice. If it were an in-game thing like Mass Effect's codex, I really think I would have read more of it.

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I said before that the problem isn't the Grimoire and it's not even that big of a problem that it isn't in the game, except that it is such a contrast to what is in the game, especially vanilla Destiny. I want a great story as much as anyone, along with great, compelling cutscenes that give us a reason to care about the action, but please don't scrimp on the flavor text and the excellent written stories that were so amazing in Destiny 1, and prompted us to wonder at mysteries and imagine what we couldn't see.

It's a perfect way to give nerds deep lore. Weird lore. Strange stories. Vague hints. Hidden caches of goodness.

If CGI or cut-scene production costs are high, then there will be a certain pressure to limit them to only the most absolutely required story points, which potentially pushes what is presented into generic territory.

As additions to an otherwise robust main story, there is no downside.

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To your second point, dense blocks of text are underrated and evocative in ways other methods of storytelling are not. I hope Bungie doesn't make 343's mistake.

I see no reason Bungie couldn't have included that stuff. Look at how many books are beside the speaker. How many could you read? Zero. Would it have broken immersion if you could have read them? No.

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You mean in the game? Sure. But maybe they wouldn't have had as much time to make them as good as they were. I'm just saying there wouldn't have been as much criticism about it being outside the game if the in-game story had been better.

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So I asked Bungie's World Lead, Steve Cotton, if Grimoire Cards would play a role in the game and he came back with a resounding "No."

"The answer to that question is 'no' and the reason it's 'no' is because we want to put the lore in the game," Cotton told me. "We want people to be able to find the lore. All the story is told through the Adventures, it's told through the characters in the world, it's told through the campaign and it's told through scannables you find throughout the world."

If the in-game activities live up to the storytelling of the grimoire, this will be a wonderful thing. That being said, I really hope Bungie doesn't mess this up. The grimoire is great, and my only real problem with it was that it wasn't accessible from within the game, itself. Of course, one of my many problems with the actual game was the lack of story and characterization that fills the grimoire, so - again - I really hope Bungie is able to make this world come alive.

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So I asked Bungie's World Lead, Steve Cotton, if Grimoire Cards would play a role in the game and he came back with a resounding "No."

"The answer to that question is 'no' and the reason it's 'no' is because we want to put the lore in the game," Cotton told me. "We want people to be able to find the lore. All the story is told through the Adventures, it's told through the characters in the world, it's told through the campaign and it's told through scannables you find throughout the world."

If the in-game activities live up to the storytelling of the grimoire, this will be a wonderful thing. That being said, I really hope Bungie doesn't mess this up. The grimoire is great, and my only real problem with it was that it wasn't accessible from within the game, itself. Of course, one of my many problems with the actual game was the lack of story and characterization that fills the grimoire, so - again - I really hope Bungie is able to make this world come alive.

They seem to be really selling it now, if the cut-scenes are any indication. I'm really curious how they are going to do it within in the gameplay through. I'm hoping for more then just "go here" then, "exposition BOT-BEEP-BOOP" kill-this-thing, "It dies" "exposition BOT-BEEP-BOOP" then fancy cutscene. (Ha ha! Air quotes.)

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They seem to be really selling it now, if the cut-scenes are any indication. I'm really curious how they are going to do it within in the gameplay through. I'm hoping for more then just "go here" then, "exposition BOT-BEEP-BOOP" kill-this-thing, "It dies" "exposition BOT-BEEP-BOOP" then fancy cutscene. (Ha ha! Air quotes.)

I started replaying the game from the beginning (b/c i've always had 3 warlocks and decided to finally have 1 of each class), and the going back and forth to the tower is driving me bonkers. "Go to mars and do this, then go see ikora, then go back to mars, then go back to ikora, etc etc." What is especially infuriating is needing to see the speaker in the Tower, picking the tower from the director, then watching a cut-scene, and then getting sent back to orbit even though i had engrams to decrypt and other people to see in the tower.

Hopefully, D2 is more streamlined, and uses radio chatter more.

Also, the Last Array is still my favorite mission and song in Destiny.

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They seem to be really selling it now, if the cut-scenes are any indication. I'm really curious how they are going to do it within in the gameplay through. I'm hoping for more then just "go here" then, "exposition BOT-BEEP-BOOP" kill-this-thing, "It dies" "exposition BOT-BEEP-BOOP" then fancy cutscene. (Ha ha! Air quotes.)

I started replaying the game from the beginning (b/c i've always had 3 warlocks and decided to finally have 1 of each class), and the going back and forth to the tower is driving me bonkers. "Go to mars and do this, then go see ikora, then go back to mars, then go back to ikora, etc etc." What is especially infuriating is needing to see the speaker in the Tower, picking the tower from the director, then watching a cut-scene, and then getting sent back to orbit even though i had engrams to decrypt and other people to see in the tower.

Hopefully, D2 is more streamlined, and uses radio chatter more.

Meh, I don't mind going to talk to people in between. It seems more realistic than wall-to-wall action. Is your frustration more a function of not having compelling reasons to do what you're doing? All that said, I look forward to not having to jump into orbit in order to travel short distances on the planet I'm on. Not having access to the director outside your ship always seemed a bit silly.

Also, the Last Array is still my favorite mission and song in Destiny.

Amazing score. And something dramatic actually happens in the world!

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Meh, I don't mind going to talk to people in between. It seems more realistic than wall-to-wall action. Is your frustration more a function of not having compelling reasons to do what you're doing? All that said, I look forward to not having to jump into orbit in order to travel short distances on the planet I'm on. Not having access to the director outside your ship always seemed a bit silly.

i just didn't like running errands. I don't mind taking breaks for cinematics. obviously some of this is fixed in D2 by having the director available in-world, so there will be fewer loading screens. Checking in to complete a quest wouldn't be so bad, but having to check in after every single step is a bit much, especially if you are going right back where you came from.

Now, if there were little outposts in the patrol areas themselves, I don't think i would mind running back and forth b/c i would be actively engaged instead of passively looking at a loading screen.

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So I asked Bungie's World Lead, Steve Cotton, if Grimoire Cards would play a role in the game and he came back with a resounding "No."

"The answer to that question is 'no' and the reason it's 'no' is because we want to put the lore in the game," Cotton told me. "We want people to be able to find the lore. All the story is told through the Adventures, it's told through the characters in the world, it's told through the campaign and it's told through scannables you find throughout the world."
If the in-game activities live up to the storytelling of the grimoire, this will be a wonderful thing. That being said, I really hope Bungie doesn't mess this up. The grimoire is great, and my only real problem with it was that it wasn't accessible from within the game, itself. Of course, one of my many problems with the actual game was the lack of story and characterization that fills the grimoire, so - again - I really hope Bungie is able to make this world come alive.

Someone took a picture of a Read Lore button in the UI, which gives me hope.

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Already spent way too much time looking for it. :) I think I saw it in one of those "things you might have missed" videos.

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[image]

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void subclass with an orange symbol above the weapons? or is the subclass in a different spot now?

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Uhhhh... Shen. That isn't a void subclass. We don't officially know what the warlock void subclass is.

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I'm pretty sure I only say Dongblades romping the gameplay videos...

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I'm pretty sure I only say Dongblades romping the gameplay videos...

Dawnblade, Gunslinger, and Striker were the only 3 playable.

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I'm pretty sure I only say Dongblades romping the gameplay videos...

Dawnblade, Gunslinger, and Striker were the only 3 playable.

really? no Sentinel or Arcstrider?

Also, does anyone else feel like Arcstrider is kind of... uninspired compared to Sentinel and Dawnblade? From the video, you appear to just be a bladedancer with a staff instead of knives. Big whoop.

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To be fair, isn't Dawnblade just Hammerbro but with a Sword? I mean, it looks like it does play a little differently, but I was hoping for something a bit more inspired.

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It looks to be much more flexible than Bladedancer. With Bladedancer you are limited to single target impacts, and you move with erratic dashes and lateral aerial attacks as a primary function. While Arcrunner appears to have more sweeping attacks that don't seem limited to single targets, as well as a more aggressive aerial smash.

I think it is all a case of replacing the least viable/flexible subclasses, relative to the changes to sandbox. Shifting everything to roaming supers means that Defender needed a full revamp, so Sentinel. Changes to the general power of abilities (sticky grenades and melee power) means that Sunsinger needed an actual core capability. And Bladedancer ancer was basically, in my experience, not worth popping your super except to clear adds poorly and PvP use is to be erratic and auto-aimed melees.

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It looks to be much more flexible than Bladedancer. With Bladedancer you are limited to single target impacts, and you move with erratic dashes and lateral aerial attacks as a primary function. While Arcrunner appears to have more sweeping attacks that don't seem limited to single targets, as well as a more aggressive aerial smash.

I think it is all a case of replacing the least viable/flexible subclasses, relative to the changes to sandbox. Shifting everything to roaming supers means that Defender needed a full revamp, so Sentinel. Changes to the general power of abilities (sticky grenades and melee power) means that Sunsinger needed an actual core capability. And Bladedancer ancer was basically, in my experience, not worth popping your super except to clear adds poorly and PvP use is to be erratic and auto-aimed melees.

Shifting everything to roaming supers is cool, but arcrunner still looks like bladedancer with a staff to me. Unless it also conveys damage avoidance, I feel like it will generally be used just as you describe bladedance: You'll be clearing adds with it but it won't be useful for popping vs. bosses. Though I should mention that blade dancer did have boss fight utility - you could turn invisible on super activation, which made for excellent clutch saves when your whole team went down - it just wasn't any good for boss dps.

Obviously we don't know very much about any of the new subclasses; my initial impression was that it looked like a bit more of the same.

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Well, that is part of my point. Bladedancer on a stick is the same sort of shift as shield that you carry or now having a sword that shoots grenades intead of throwing them. All three seem to fill the same concept as their predecessors, with the major difference only being in execution.

I'd have to check the clips again, but it has more anti-trash utility when you can hit more than one target with a swing, and when you can engage with a death-from-above attack instead of slowly fall down to slashing height. Is it as flashy a change as the other two? No. But I think it will probably take the utility that Bladedancer had and ratchet it up accordingly. To make it less erratic.

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Yeah, I'm interested in how the Arcstrider plays. It's a bit funny, every time they showed the three new subclasses, the Dawnblade and Sentinel were doing their ranges attacks while the Arcstrider... just hung in the air beside them.

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Shifting everything to roaming supers is cool, but arcrunner still looks like bladedancer with a staff to me.

Yeah, but bladedancer with a staff is 98% cooler.

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Uhhhh... Shen. That isn't a void subclass. We don't officially know what the warlock void subclass is.

I assumed voidwalker bc of the purple glowing in his hand.

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Grimoir is dead, long live the grimoir (Destiny)

Who is Erik Kain? - Why would Bungie tell him?

Forbes has been writing about Destiny for awhile ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Probably because he asked them!

It was a strange sole source. My alarms went off.

It was a strange sole source. My alarms went off.

It was a strange sole source. My alarms went off.

Good.

I'm not sad about grimoire, but my grimoire score

...But muh internet points!