IGN First Video

A chat with Luke and the Nose.

- No text -

Great stuff in here, but Luke's point about having more challenging base activities, and even limiting weapon switching options in some instances sounds great to me.

One thing that's always bothered me in D1, it rarely stresses it's core systems enough outside of MP. Even in it's most difficult non raid challenge, Nigthfalls, you can kind of hang back, or sometimes you can use the skulls to generate amazing, 1 hit KOs. And that's fun, but it's not always super challenging! Because of the lack of challenge, Destinies systems sometimes feel a little underbaked, even though they are deep and rich. Instead the focus has been on these bespoke mechanics for various encounters (Raids, and some of the strikes). So much so that "New Mechanics" has become the calling card of good destiny content.

That approach has always been one of Destiny's biggest strengths, and biggest weaknesses. Bespoke mechanics helped drive the games identity when it seemed so vanilla, but they've made it harder to add more compelling content. Building new mechanics is extremely expensive in a big networked game like this, so relying on generating tons of new mechanics limits the games ability to scale.

Harder content, and (warning, incoming hot take) limiting player choice are the most cost efficient ways to generate new experiences. It's also more dynamic, and you can create content procedurally in a satisfying way.

A great example of this is Desktop dungeons (http://www.desktopdungeons.net/). DD mechanics are actually kind of bland. It's not really a kind of grand tactical game, it's very static. Each round is really an exploration of effective resource consumption. But good lord is it ever compelling. The way it accomplishes this, is through light proceduarality of content (Each dungeon is generated on fairly simple templates), and a difficulty level that forces you to master the ins and outs of each mechanic.

For example, it's not uncommon to have a level (~15 minutes of play) come down to a series of choices where you win with only one turn left for yourself. Getting there requires you to understand how each system works to gain tactical advantage. For example, you might need to get enough experience from the last 4 montsers by figuring out the correct order of spells to maximize the value of each one, while not requiring you to use a potion, because you know the final boss will require you to be level 8, and have 2 potions in your pocket, and you are level 7 with 2 potions. When you can push the difficulty right to the limit, each little wrinkle of the system suddenly becomes it's own entire bespoke mechanic.

Hearing them pushing in this direction makes me excited :)

I'm also really excited about this change. I think one of the subtle strengths of Halo was the 2 weapon limit. Granted- you could change these two weapons by picking up another, but it still forced you to make choices. In D1, you could pull any weapon up at any time and this variety actually made encounters less dynamic (everyone switch to black spindle here, etc). I think that this will help players find a niche. Do you bring Fatebringer, or Gjallarhorn? Sniper or shotgun?

I can imagine this getting frustrating when raiding though. Especially blind raiding. Hopefully the raids are designed in such a way that weapon choice, while it matters, doesn't make something impossible if you've chosen the wrong loadouts.

One thing that's always bothered me in D1, it rarely stresses it's core systems enough outside of MP. Even in it's most difficult non raid challenge, Nigthfalls, you can kind of hang back, or sometimes you can use the skulls to generate amazing, 1 hit KOs. And that's fun, but it's not always super challenging! Because of the lack of challenge, Destinies systems sometimes feel a little underbaked, even though they are deep and rich. Instead the focus has been on these bespoke mechanics for various encounters (Raids, and some of the strikes). So much so that "New Mechanics" has become the calling card of good destiny content.

That approach has always been one of Destiny's biggest strengths, and biggest weaknesses. Bespoke mechanics helped drive the games identity when it seemed so vanilla, but they've made it harder to add more compelling content. Building new mechanics is extremely expensive in a big networked game like this, so relying on generating tons of new mechanics limits the games ability to scale.

A few things here.

1. You don't know what gear players will have because it's RNG. So you can't build encounters and scenarios around exploiting certain weapons like you could in say, Megaman.

2. The subclasses really don't have a lot of variation in their abilities. You can change your skills, but at the end of the day you are still doing 99% the same thing. So you can't build systems where players have to master their chosen abilities from a pick of wildly different and exploitable choices.

I'm also really excited about this change. I think one of the subtle strengths of Halo was the 2 weapon limit. Granted- you could change these two weapons by picking up another, but it still forced you to make choices. In D1, you could pull any weapon up at any time and this variety actually made encounters less dynamic (everyone switch to black spindle here, etc). I think that this will help players find a niche. Do you bring Fatebringer, or Gjallarhorn? Sniper or shotgun?

I can imagine this getting frustrating when raiding though. Especially blind raiding. Hopefully the raids are designed in such a way that weapon choice, while it matters, doesn't make something impossible if you've chosen the wrong loadouts.

Yea, the loss of dynamism of a more limited palette hurt the replayability of destiny in some places. I didn't get the impression that this will be a global limitation though, so maybe it's one of the settings on nightfalls, or possibly a skull that can turn on and off?

One thing that's always bothered me in D1, it rarely stresses it's core systems enough outside of MP. Even in it's most difficult non raid challenge, Nigthfalls, you can kind of hang back, or sometimes you can use the skulls to generate amazing, 1 hit KOs. And that's fun, but it's not always super challenging! Because of the lack of challenge, Destinies systems sometimes feel a little underbaked, even though they are deep and rich. Instead the focus has been on these bespoke mechanics for various encounters (Raids, and some of the strikes). So much so that "New Mechanics" has become the calling card of good destiny content.

That approach has always been one of Destiny's biggest strengths, and biggest weaknesses. Bespoke mechanics helped drive the games identity when it seemed so vanilla, but they've made it harder to add more compelling content. Building new mechanics is extremely expensive in a big networked game like this, so relying on generating tons of new mechanics limits the games ability to scale.

A few things here.

1. You don't know what gear players will have because it's RNG. So you can't build encounters and scenarios around exploiting certain weapons like you could in say, Megaman.

True. That said, they should have a better grasp of which weapons people have access to. Weapon perk randomization is going away. Therefore, if I buy a weapon, it will have the same perks as the RNG variety. The video also suggested that exotics could be found rather than randomly appearing. Knowing what a player has access to is not nearly as powerful, as being able to limit their choices, but it is better than nothing.

2. The subclasses really don't have a lot of variation in their abilities. You can change your skills, but at the end of the day you are still doing 99% the same thing. So you can't build systems where players have to master their chosen abilities from a pick of wildly different and exploitable choices.

Yeah. I wish that invisibility wasn't disappearing. That made the hunter class a bit unique and I loved exploiting that ability. It seems like they got some new things up their sleeves though- titans have that wall and warlocks can generate health now.

One thing that's always bothered me in D1, it rarely stresses it's core systems enough outside of MP. Even in it's most difficult non raid challenge, Nigthfalls, you can kind of hang back, or sometimes you can use the skulls to generate amazing, 1 hit KOs. And that's fun, but it's not always super challenging! Because of the lack of challenge, Destinies systems sometimes feel a little underbaked, even though they are deep and rich. Instead the focus has been on these bespoke mechanics for various encounters (Raids, and some of the strikes). So much so that "New Mechanics" has become the calling card of good destiny content.

That approach has always been one of Destiny's biggest strengths, and biggest weaknesses. Bespoke mechanics helped drive the games identity when it seemed so vanilla, but they've made it harder to add more compelling content. Building new mechanics is extremely expensive in a big networked game like this, so relying on generating tons of new mechanics limits the games ability to scale.

A few things here.

1. You don't know what gear players will have because it's RNG. So you can't build encounters and scenarios around exploiting certain weapons like you could in say, Megaman.

I think it's fair to expect players to hang on to a few categories of weapon. "Here's my CQB tool, Here's my Crowd Control Tool, here's a really good dps tool" etc. I think you can easily push things far enough that if you can't find the *perfect* tool, you can find some combination that works, or your personal skill can carry the day.

2. The subclasses really don't have a lot of variation in their abilities. You can change your skills, but at the end of the day you are still doing 99% the same thing. So you can't build systems where players have to master their chosen abilities from a pick of wildly different and exploitable choices.

This is exactly my point, Destinys low core challenge hides the amount of differentiation the classes can have.

This is a part where higher difficulty actually pushes the differences into the sunlight. My favorite mission in D1 is the taken war mission where you go back to skolas boss fights location. Doing that as each of my titan variants while underleveled feels *very* different, and the final battle is very challenging, and my strategy was signifigantly different.

1. Hammer bro: push special agressively, take it slow, use ads to charge the special so I could pop it for massive damage
2. Defender: get in close, punch/shotgun for shields, and agressively use bubble.
3. Striker: Aggressively move and flank as I could use skating + shoulder charge to bend around obstacles, use short to midrange weapons that can spike a lot of damage to control ads (more fusions, less shotguns).

My point being here, when the content doesn't push you, there's no difference in these classes, but when you back is against the wall, you've failed 3 times already, and you have to git gud then, and those small differences in the classes can become pretty important. Then the core systems of Destiny really shine.

One thing that's always bothered me in D1, it rarely stresses it's core systems enough outside of MP. Even in it's most difficult non raid challenge, Nigthfalls, you can kind of hang back, or sometimes you can use the skulls to generate amazing, 1 hit KOs. And that's fun, but it's not always super challenging! Because of the lack of challenge, Destinies systems sometimes feel a little underbaked, even though they are deep and rich. Instead the focus has been on these bespoke mechanics for various encounters (Raids, and some of the strikes). So much so that "New Mechanics" has become the calling card of good destiny content.

That approach has always been one of Destiny's biggest strengths, and biggest weaknesses. Bespoke mechanics helped drive the games identity when it seemed so vanilla, but they've made it harder to add more compelling content. Building new mechanics is extremely expensive in a big networked game like this, so relying on generating tons of new mechanics limits the games ability to scale.

A few things here.

1. You don't know what gear players will have because it's RNG. So you can't build encounters and scenarios around exploiting certain weapons like you could in say, Megaman.

True. That said, they should have a better grasp of which weapons people have access to. Weapon perk randomization is going away. Therefore, if I buy a weapon, it will have the same perks as the RNG variety. The video also suggested that exotics could be found rather than randomly appearing. Knowing what a player has access to is not nearly as powerful, as being able to limit their choices, but it is better than nothing.

But none of the perks were ever 'interesting' in the sense that they really changed the way you approached playing the game. Even very few exotics did this. It's not necessarily an issue of power, but of giving the player a bunch of tools that do cool unique things, and asking them to creatively exploit that to complete hard challenges.

I expected nothing less, but still . . . I'm impressed.

Unlocked in Patrol, locked in activities? Would maybe give Patrol more of a reason to exist--try out new weapons while knocking out bounties and goofy around with friends.

Unlocked in Patrol, locked in activities? Would maybe give Patrol more of a reason to exist--try out new weapons while knocking out bounties and goofy around with friends.

Well, considering most activities are launched from patrol that may be tough ;)

I don't feel like it would be that difficult, honestly. The game is going to know when you transition from Patrol to an activity anyway, so it could just lock your current load out then. I suspect Bungie probably has something more specific or elegant in mind.

I don't feel like it would be that difficult, honestly. The game is going to know when you transition from Patrol to an activity anyway, so it could just lock your current load out then. I suspect Bungie probably has something more specific or elegant in mind.

True, I was more trying to convey that I think patrol as a concept is going to be far more fleshed out and a more integral part of dest2ny experience. Bungie's kind of done a poor job of conveying that though.

I don't feel like it would be that difficult, honestly. The game is going to know when you transition from Patrol to an activity anyway, so it could just lock your current load out then. I suspect Bungie probably has something more specific or elegant in mind.

True, I was more trying to convey that I think patrol as a concept is going to be far more fleshed out and a more integral part of dest2ny experience. Bungie's kind of done a poor job of conveying that though.

I hope you're right! If nothing else, being able to start activities from Patrol will be a huge improvement. I liked screwing around in Patrol quite a bit, but having to return to orbit to actually start something always killed my desire to do it unless I was grinding bounties or looking for something specific in Patrol.