Do we really want games to surprise us?

So nothing about Destiny 2 has really gotten me pumped. New Subclasses? Eh. New worlds to explore? Expected. Large-scale Cabal assault? We've been calling it since Year 2. Other than a few elements that it's borrowing from Horizon Zero Dawn (and a few other games), nothing is a surprise.
And yet, preorder sales are through the roof. People who whined and moaned about the first game have been saying good things about what they see, and from the looks of it, we're going to coast off another three years of much of the same repetitive grind that we have been for the past three years. And for the most part, we are all okay with that. We know that not enough will change to make it a brand new experience. We know that people will continue to have the same complaints that they had before, as Bungie has clearly played it safe (remove Specials, remove self-rez, remove random stats, remove variety)... Players say that they want drastic changes, that they want things to be fresh, but they clearly don't, given the preorders and buzz...

And this week, an experiment has come along to challenge that complacency. It throws standard conventions out the window, and gives us something different for a change... And the reactions have been very mixed, which has gotten me thinking.

The experiment is Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice, which launched Yesterday on PS4 and PC. Described as an "indie AAA" title, it was developed (and self-published) by Ninja Theory, the guys behind Enslaved, Heavenly Sword, and the Devil May Cry reboot. Hellblade is an incredibly interesting game for a great number of reasons; everything from how you feel while playing to how you should listen to it has had articles and entire threads written about it, but I'll get to that in a minute. First, an idea of what the game is even like (with a word from one of the team members):

And a more thematic trailer (showing the game running at 60FPS):

Now let's talk about the things that it does different.

The one you've likely heard about (if nothing else), is that the game has a mandatory permadeath feature if you die too much. Except it doesn't. But it does. What's going on? It ties into what the game even IS. The game has you playing a character, Senua, who suffers from psychosis. And not just in a Dead Space "you hallucinate sometimes" way, either. The game does everything that it can to put you into Senua's shoes. When you load up the game, it recommends that you play the game with headphones (3D Audio is not only supported, but recommended), and then you're thrown into the world with no tutorials, no explanation of what's what. There are voices that constantly plague you. They help you... Sometimes. Other times, they'll mock you, they'll disturb you, and worse, they might even flat-out lie to you. When you die, the game will inform you of the permadeath that will happen if you fail too much. And you'll have that looming over you for the rest of the game. Every hit that an enemy lands is that much more terrifying. Every death a gamble... Some folks immediately jumped on Ninja Theory to denounce the feature (including prominent moron TotalBiscuit, who ended up sheepishly deleting his tweet once it was pointed out to him how much of an idiot he is, because he hadn't even played a single minute of the game).
So that really caught my attention. It's something that you never see in games these days: true punishment. And some people rage about it, while others praise it (and in the end, it may just be intended to make you uneasy rather than actually going through with its threat, which fits thematically, since you're not supposed to be sure about anything that you see or hear in the game, and it's clearly working, since people don't even know how to trigger it)...

In fact, each of the things that Hellblade does differently, such as no tutorials, no HUD, no hand-holding of any sort, and the looming threat of actual consequence... it's all being criticized by a large portion of the gaming community. And the funny thing is that reviewers themselves, who did play the game from beginning to end, love it. It currently holds an 81 on Metacritic. And something that was funny to me is how not all reviewers loved the same things.

For example, while one of the lowest-scoring reviewers (METRO) said:

A technical masterpiece with some of the best swordfighting combat in years, but the storytelling and puzzle elements come across as muddled and awkwardly mismatched.

another of the lower-scoring reviewers (Vandal) said:

Although gameplay-wise is far from Ninja Theory’s best works, the universe and the story are outstanding.

They pretty much praised and criticized the exact opposite of what the other said. And these are the people who gave some of the lowest scores.

_______________________________________________

Another thing that Ninja Theory did differently is the self-publishing that I talked about earlier. People like to hiss and spit at Activision, and at Bungie's partnership with Activision, and many wonder what it would have been like without that union.
Ninja Theory has done just that. They funded the game themselves, using their own resources and a tiny team, and it's blown my mind. The entire game was developed by a team of thirteen people. The main character, Senua, is played by Ninja Theory's video editor, who helped put out nearly 30 fantastic Dev diaries. The studio used this freedom to put out an experience quite unlike any other, that's being praised by reviewers, and is being sold for $30, half the price of a standard game release. The game includes both a 4K mode, and a 60Hz mode for 60Fps. It has a Photo Mode. It's everything that people say they want!

And yet, people are complaining... So do we want games to surprise us? Do we want developers to break away from their publishers and deliver truly unique experiences? Hellblade is the manifestation of that question, and the sales and player response will be the answer.

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And yet, people are complaining... So do we want games to surprise us? Do we want developers to break away from their publishers and deliver truly unique experiences? Hellblade is the manifestation of that question, and the sales and player response will be the answer.

From your description, I am immediately buying and playing this game when I get back from vacation.

As far as people complaining, I am glad you agree TotalBuscuit is a bad critic. But most other critics in the games industry are bad as well.

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...and from the looks of it, we're going to coast off another three years of much of the same repetitive grind that we have been for the past three years.

Stopped reading there.

You buried what looks like it might have been a great opinion piece about what gamers want and about a very interesting looking new game by starting off with dumb hyperbole. You may not be excited for Destiny 2, but others like me are. I can't speak for all of them, but you certainly put me off from caring about whatever point you were actually trying to make.

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...and from the looks of it, we're going to coast off another three years of much of the same repetitive grind that we have been for the past three years.

Stopped reading there.

You buried what looks like it might have been a great opinion piece about what gamers want and about a very interesting looking new game by starting off with dumb hyperbole. You may not be excited for Destiny 2, but others like me are. I can't speak for all of them, but you certainly put me off from caring about whatever point you were actually trying to make.

Do you think he's wrong about the grind? I would even wager he is not going far enough with that statement.

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Do you think he's wrong about the grind? I would even wager he is not going far enough with that statement.

I enjoy "the grind" but that's because I play at a much slower place than most around here. I don't enjoy playing for the sake of unlocking something, I prefer getting rewarded with something because I've completed the task. There is still a ton of stuff I can do in Destiny that will never get completed.

Grinding is nothing new. There was nothing more irritating than buying a new game (Nintendo, Sega, whatever old console you want) and having to unlock MP stuff in the campaign mode. The difference now is, you can choose to grind for the prize...you don't HAVE to.

Destiny has kept me entertained since release. It's the first game to ever do this. As much as I loved Halo, I never played it so consistently.

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Do you think he's wrong about the grind? I would even wager he is not going far enough with that statement.

I enjoy "the grind" but that's because I play at a much slower place than most around here. I don't enjoy playing for the sake of unlocking something, I prefer getting rewarded with something because I've completed the task.

Our household is divided regarding this issue. Rellekh is against the feeling like she's getting behind because it makes her feel like she can't play when she wants to. I've kind of hit the place where I play enough that it is fun, but I never really get burned out and I don't feel like I'm falling behind. Destiny also got a lot more friendly towards the end in terms of opening up different routes to level up. It was incredibly rare for me to catch myself doing something I didn't want to do.

I can see why people would feel like it's a grind, but it never felt that way to me.

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Do you think he's wrong about the grind? I would even wager he is not going far enough with that statement.

From how he is describing it? Yeah.

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...and from the looks of it, we're going to coast off another three years of much of the same repetitive grind that we have been for the past three years.

Stopped reading there.

You buried what looks like it might have been a great opinion piece about what gamers want and about a very interesting looking new game by starting off with dumb hyperbole. You may not be excited for Destiny 2, but others like me are. I can't speak for all of them, but you certainly put me off from caring about whatever point you were actually trying to make.

See, here's the thing, man. I'm not as excited for Destiny 2 as you are, but I'm not put off by repetitive grind (you'd think the fact that I've repeatedly leveled nearly a dozen characters in Destiny would be a pretty big clue). I've already preordered the Deluxe edition of Destiny on PS4, and I'm on the fence about getting it for Xbone as well. I look forward to the next three years, even if they really do end up being repetitive grind.

That said, I'm not going to sugarcoat what Destiny is, and what it will likely always be. I don't have blinders on, so if a game studio (or person) has something that they can be called out on, I'm going to call them out. You'd think that kind of honesty and awareness would give you reason to care about the points that I'm trying to make, but it sounds like you just want to hear from those who reaffirm your perspective/bias. And that's fine, but you won't ever learn to appreciate other perspectives if that's all you ever surround yourself with.

And I dunno, that kind of makes you exactly like the folks that I talk about in the post...

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I think the issue is that the wording frames it a) in the negative and b) as a detraction from the game. Specifically the implication of "grinding" which is in all cases player fabricated and player enforced. A developer cannot make you grind, so the presentation leaves a sour taste for many folks who don't choose to treat it as a flaw.

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I think the issue is that the wording frames it a) in the negative and b) as a detraction from the game. Specifically the implication of "grinding" which is in all cases player fabricated and player enforced. A developer cannot make you grind, so the presentation leaves a sour taste for many folks who don't choose to treat it as a flaw.

Well, I meant it more in the sense that it would be safe and predictable (hence the word "coast"). I mean, those terms aren't inherently flaws to me, but you aren't likely to be caught off guard, or hit with a truly game-changing moment.

I've often argued against folks like Cruel, who bemoan grinds, and who claim that you need to "grind for weeks" in Destiny to have fun or succeed. Those claims are false. You only grind as much as you want to. There are tons of different activities to do, and all of them these days help you get ahead.

But we're familiar with these activities. I wanted to highlight a game that goes completely against what we're familiar with in gaming in general, and contrasting that with Destiny's consistent direction was, I felt, an effective way to set up the new things brought to the table. I wasn't expecting to trigger Raga.

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I've often argued against folks like Cruel, who bemoan grinds, and who claim that you need to "grind for weeks" in Destiny to have fun or succeed. Those claims are false. You only grind as much as you want to. There are tons of different activities to do, and all of them these days help you get ahead.

Three of which were really actually 'fun' - Raids, Trials, and Crucible.

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You never get tired of passing off your opinion as fact.

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You never get tired of passing off your opinion as fact.

~m

I was stating my opinion a an opinion. This is really tiresome.

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You never get tired of passing off your opinion as fact.

~m

I was stating my opinion a an opinion. This is really tiresome.

Except that you weren't. You really need to work on how you phrase things, because your same defense of "of course it's just my opinion!" is just as tiring for some.

Three of which were really actually 'fun'

Is not how you phrase an opinion.

"Three of which I found to be actually fun" is an opinion.
"Three of which were really actually 'fun' to me" is an opinion.
"The three that I found to be actually 'fun' - Raids, Trials, and Crucible." is an opinion.

You have a terrible habit that you have always been called out on, and you don't ever try to fix it. You never say "in my opinion", or phrase things as an opinion. No, people are not supposed to infer that something is "just your opinion" when you phrase it as a fact. Do better.

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You have a terrible habit that you have always been called out on, and you don't ever try to fix it. You never say "in my opinion". No, people are not supposed to infer that something is "just your opinion" when you phrase it as a fact. Do better.

This is not a math problem. Fun is subjective. Some people like slicing their balls with razor blades. Clearly any statement with regard to fun or entertainment value is therefore automatically an opinion.

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You have a terrible habit that you have always been called out on, and you don't ever try to fix it. You never say "in my opinion". No, people are not supposed to infer that something is "just your opinion" when you phrase it as a fact. Do better.

This is not a math problem. Fun is subjective. Some people like slicing their balls with razor blades. Clearly any statement with regard to fun or entertainment value is therefore automatically an opinion.

See how you just try to deflect your communication flaws? Its your way of justifying the way you talk/write. It's how you say that no, you don't have a flaw, and no, you're not going to work on it, despite the fact that many others have brought the issue up.

If you want everyone else to stop pointing out your mistake, accept that it's a mistake, and fix it. It's tiring for everyone else that you are being stubborn, and that you refuse to improve. Will it really kill you to do better?

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I mean, by this point literally everyone here knows this is just how Cody writes. Why is it automatically on him to change?

Weren't you the one talking about reading with your "Cody filter" a few weeks ago? Sure, it's sort of grating sometimes, but this is a tired argument at this point, and we all know that's just how he writes, so I really struggle to see why it's such an issue all the time.

It seems like this exact conversation happens at least once a week, and I'm not sure that it's ever accomplished a damn thing.

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This is not a math problem. Fun is subjective. Some people like slicing their balls with razor blades. Clearly any statement with regard to fun or entertainment value is therefore automatically an opinion.

Yes, but your language is stating it as a fact. It's not that we think that you are somehow confusing your opinion as fact, it's that you think so little of all other opinions that only yours matters in a discussion. There is actually a WORD for stating opinion as fact, often with a negative connotation, it's called dogmatism. This isn't an idea that this group of people is holding you to arbitrarily, it is generally considered rude and arrogant to state your opinion as fact.

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This is not a math problem. Fun is subjective. Some people like slicing their balls with razor blades. Clearly any statement with regard to fun or entertainment value is therefore automatically an opinion.

Yes, but your language is stating it as a fact. It's not that we think that you are somehow confusing your opinion as fact, it's that you think so little of all other opinions that only yours matters in a discussion. There is actually a WORD for stating opinion as fact, often with a negative connotation, it's called dogmatism. This isn't an idea that this group of people is holding you to arbitrarily, it is generally considered rude and arrogant to state your opinion as fact.

I read and consider all opinions in the discussion. Malgate's thought on good art being uncomfortable… I can see where he comes from and why he'd think that, but I do not agree. But see, I did think about what he said any why he may think that.

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I read and consider all opinions in the discussion. Malgate's thought on good art being uncomfortable… I can see where he comes from any why he'd think that but I do not agree. But see, I did think about what he said any why he may think that.

Then use the proper language to communicate that. That's not a hard concept to understand. If you stated stuff like that, even very briefly, many people would be much less annoyed in their responses to you. We don't know what you're thinking or what you considered before you state any of your opinions, but your language implies that you don't consider anyone else's opinions.

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For decades I have been confused by people who can and do instantly and unfailingly recognize something as an opinion but are offended by someone not typing out that it is an opinion each time. But, the point is, this is something I have seen on the Internet for DECADES. I have never understood it, but it's clearly not going anywhere as a thing that happens. So, you have to decide if efficiency and logical sense is worth offending them and having them make multiple posts every time.

I hope you decide it is not worth it and just bend since the efficiency goes out the window by the resulting argument, and as you say, it is long past tiresome.

Maybe add a disclaimer to your profile location. then it's on everything you post without any extra typing.

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I hope you decide it is not worth it and just bend since the efficiency goes out the window by the resulting argument, and as you say, it is long past tiresome.

I'm really struggling to understand how adding at minimum a two word phrase ("to me") is somehow restrictively less efficient.

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I didn't say restrictively. If you'll recall, I advised him to do it.

I don't think it's a great burden either way: neither to type it nor to fill it in as the reader in real time if you prefer having it there. But there can be no argument that it's more to type and it's not at all adding to the informational value of the message to add (after all, the people complaining are able to identify it as an opinion with the amount of information given — otherwise they would not have been prompted to complain or be offended.)

It's also, in my anecdotal experience, a barrier asked only of those with unpopular opinions, so I do wonder if it's not really an attempt - conscious or subconscious - to have a chilling effect on the misfits posting. But That's just a thought.

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I didn't say restrictively.

I don't think it's a great burden either way: neither to type it nor to fill it in as the reader in real time if you prefer having it there. But there can be no argument that it's more to type and it's not at all adding to the informational value of the message to add (after all, the people complaining are able to identify it as an opinion with the amount of information given — otherwise they would not have been prompted to complain or be offended.)

I disagree. Information does not end with the stated, it continues with the unstated. As I've said this is not a matter of people not knowing it's not an opinion, it's not knowing that the writer respects their opinions as well. The fact that this comes up all the time, not just here but everywhere, is proof that many people find statements of opinion presented as fact to be rude. If you don't mind appearing rude or arrogant to some then you have every right to state it that way, ignore the replies and go about your business. But understand how it appears to many people. Adding a minimal amount of effort to get your intentions across does not seem like that crazy of a burden to let people understand that.

It's also, in my anecdotal experience, a barrier asked only of those with unpopular opinions, so I do wonder if it's not really an attempt - conscious or subconscious - to have a chilling effect on the misfits posting. But That's just a thought.

It could be, but we'd need a lot of evidence to prove this one way or the other.

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It's also, in my anecdotal experience, a barrier asked only of those with unpopular opinions, so I do wonder if it's not really an attempt - conscious or subconscious - to have a chilling effect on the misfits posting. But That's just a thought.

Someone did say great art made you uncomfortable… unintentional praise? :-p

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Maybe add a disclaimer to your profile location. then it's on everything you post without any extra typing.

I've embraced this idea for years.

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Maybe add a disclaimer to your profile location. then it's on everything you post without any extra typing.

A good idea, but I'm kind of stuck with the one I have. What with the never forget and all.

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Maybe add a disclaimer to your profile location. then it's on everything you post without any extra typing.

A good idea, but I'm kind of stuck with the one I have. What with the never forget and all.

For someone so concerned with “master race” your use of “never forget” is... interesting.

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You have a terrible habit that you have always been called out on, and you don't ever try to fix it. You never say "in my opinion". No, people are not supposed to infer that something is "just your opinion" when you phrase it as a fact. Do better.

This is not a math problem. Fun is subjective. Some people like slicing their balls with razor blades. Clearly any statement with regard to fun or entertainment value is therefore automatically an opinion.

Is your ISP charging you by the bit?

I think this is such a stupid argument and has been for the longest time. Your word choice puts people off in the extreme. You seem to want people to presume the extra short words other people put in to qualify their opinions AS OPINIONS because presumably you just can't be bothered to type them.

You may have a point that without objective proof, ANYTHING anyone says here is opinion.

You may have a point that concepts like "fun" are indeed essentially subjective and therefore no assertion being made with regard to them could legally be interpreted as an assertion of fact.

If this were a courtroom those points would matter, but this is a social group where people are trying to interact, not just win arguments. The idea that you'll spend time and effort to explain why all posts are opinion and all relevant concepts are subjective but you WON'T spend the time and effort to put in the few extra fractions of a section to qualify your statements out of politeness to other people negatively affects the reception of your opinions. It sends the message that while others qualify their statements, you don't have to, either because your opinions are less deserving of qualification, or that the manner in which others perceive your opinions is less important to you than your raw expression of those opinions.

Sigh.

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This is probably the best critique I've read of Cody's communication style. Another phrase for it: a lack of courtesy.

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This is not a math problem. Fun is subjective. Some people like slicing their balls with razor blades. Clearly any statement with regard to fun or entertainment value is therefore automatically an opinion.

after the crunch, the freeze, the fizzle, at the end of all things, there will be Cody not understanding how he comes off to people
maybe you should get yourself tested
(that said this instance was not as bad as some, and the commonly held opinion tends to influence other opinions, in this case making people think "well does he state it that way? maybe he does")

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I think you have a terrible habit that you have always been called out on, and it seems to me you don't ever try to fix it. In my personal experience, you never say "in my opinion", or phrase things as an opinion from what I can tell. No, my thoughts are that people are not supposed to infer that something is "just your opinion" when you phrase it as a fact. I think you can do better but I'm open to the possibility that I'm mistaken.

Fixed

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- No text -

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Fixed, IMO.

You're entitled to your opinion...

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You never get tired of passing off your opinion as fact.

~m

I was stating my opinion a an opinion. This is really tiresome.

Except that you weren't. You really need to work on how you phrase things, because your same defense of "of course it's just my opinion!" is just as tiring for some.

Three of which were really actually 'fun'

Is not how you phrase an opinion.

"Three of which I found to be actually fun" is an opinion.
"Three of which were really actually 'fun' to me" is an opinion.
"The three that I found to be actually 'fun' - Raids, Trials, and Crucible." is an opinion.

You have a terrible habit that you have always been called out on, and you don't ever try to fix it. You never say "in my opinion", or phrase things as an opinion. No, people are not supposed to infer that something is "just your opinion" when you phrase it as a fact. Do better.

I believe Cody was pointing out, as I often have, that for those of us who only enjoy Destiny's end game (Trials, Raids, nightfalls, etc), the rest of the game is a tiresome and exhausting grind.

This is the point I've made over and over again. If others love spending all their time in patrols and story missions, that's awesome! Good for them. But IMO, those activities are shallow and forgettablecompared to the end game. But because of the way Destiny is built, I need to spend dozens of hours with the stuff I don't like just to get to the stuff I do like. THAT is a fact.

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But because of the way Destiny is built, I need to spend dozens of hours with the stuff I don't like just to get to the stuff I do like. THAT is a fact.

Need to spend dozens of hours, huh? Well, that "fact" is clearly wrong, since you can level a brand new character from 0-400 Light in less than a dozen hours. Ten if you know what you're doing, and that includes doing those raids that you love so much...

Myth BUSTED!!

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But because of the way Destiny is built, I need to spend dozens of hours with the stuff I don't like just to get to the stuff I do like. THAT is a fact.

Need to spend dozens of hours, huh? Well, that "fact" is clearly wrong, since you can level a brand new character from 0-400 Light in less than a dozen hours. Ten if you know what you're doing, and that includes doing those raids that you love so much...

Myth BUSTED!!

Right, because using your personal experience with a progression system based on RNG loot levelling is "proof" of anything ;p

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But because of the way Destiny is built, I need to spend dozens of hours with the stuff I don't like just to get to the stuff I do like. THAT is a fact.

Need to spend dozens of hours, huh? Well, that "fact" is clearly wrong, since you can level a brand new character from 0-400 Light in less than a dozen hours. Ten if you know what you're doing, and that includes doing those raids that you love so much...

Myth BUSTED!!

Right, because using your personal experience with a progression system based on RNG loot levelling is "proof" of anything ;p

Your claim was proven wrong, since there is clear video evidence. If you want to whine that this single example only proves me "technically right", then I retire undefeated either way.

Besides, I didn't watch the entire linked video, but from the comments, it sounds like he didn't pick up the Rise of Iron gear that has nothing to do with RNG (nor do the Iron Lord Artifacts), so he could have potentially leveled much faster...

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Your claim was proven wrong, since there is clear video evidence. If you want to whine that this single example only proves me "technically right", then I retire undefeated either way.

Again, that video is the game as it exists NOW, with gear given out like candy in a wide variety of activities. This is not how it was a year ago. I am sure you can go from new character to Vault of Glass completion in less than 3 hours now, but in September of 2014 that took days of grinding.

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But because of the way Destiny is built, I need to spend dozens of hours with the stuff I don't like just to get to the stuff I do like. THAT is a fact.

Need to spend dozens of hours, huh? Well, that "fact" is clearly wrong, since you can level a brand new character from 0-400 Light in less than a dozen hours. Ten if you know what you're doing, and that includes doing those raids that you love so much...

Myth BUSTED!!

That is only true NOW. Over time, Bungie expands the number of activities that give high level gear. You know damn well when Rise of Iron came out the only thing that gave gear high level gear was raids and trials. if I recall everything maxed at 365 outside of those activities. If you were playing Rise of Iron on release, you were grinding strikes to get ready for the raid.

It's easier to level NOW for a few reasons:

1. You have 400 level gear to infuse onto to other characters. But getting this on your first character was a chore.
2. 400 level gear is given out in a huge variety of activities now.

The video you linked was from a few days ago. Not comparable to what we had to do on release. Of course, you can't just wait, because then the raid is spoiled.

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But because of the way Destiny is built, I need to spend dozens of hours with the stuff I don't like just to get to the stuff I do like. THAT is a fact.

Need to spend dozens of hours, huh? Well, that "fact" is clearly wrong, since you can level a brand new character from 0-400 Light in less than a dozen hours. Ten if you know what you're doing, and that includes doing those raids that you love so much...

Myth BUSTED!!

That is only true NOW. Over time, Bungie expands the number of activities that give high level gear. You know damn well when Rise of Iron came out the only thing that gave gear high level gear was raids and trials. If you were playing Rise of Iron on release, you were grinding strikes to get ready for the raid.

Cody, you know perfectly well that Korny will never let logic stand in the way of an opportunity to troll someone :)

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But because of the way Destiny is built, I need to spend dozens of hours with the stuff I don't like just to get to the stuff I do like. THAT is a fact.

Need to spend dozens of hours, huh? Well, that "fact" is clearly wrong, since you can level a brand new character from 0-400 Light in less than a dozen hours. Ten if you know what you're doing, and that includes doing those raids that you love so much...

Myth BUSTED!!

That is only true NOW. Over time, Bungie expands the number of activities that give high level gear. You know damn well when Rise of Iron came out the only thing that gave gear high level gear was raids and trials. if I recall everything maxed at 365 outside of those activities. If you were playing Rise of Iron on release, you were grinding strikes to get ready for the raid.

Your memory is terrible. You weren't capped at 365 outside of Raids and Trials (I remember Otter being above 370), that was the decryption cap. All other weekly rewards, factions, and exotic engrams could be over that (not to mention Archon's Forge).

It's easier to level NOW for a few reasons:

1. You have 400 level gear to infuse onto to other characters. But getting this on your first character was a

Yeah, but in the video I linked, the guy doesn't do that. He simply uses the drops that the game gives him, and hits 400 Light in ten hours (he hits above 390 long before that).

2. 400 level gear is given out in a huge variety of activities now.

Right, so Cruel's statement that you NEED to grind for dozens of hours is completely false. He didn't say "way back when", he said that as if it were a true statement, which you yourself are pointing out as false.

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Right, so Cruel's statement that you NEED to grind for dozens of hours is completely false. He didn't say "way back when", he said that as if it were a true statement, which you yourself are pointing out as false.

Again, you cannot enjoy the high level activities if you do not complete them in a timely manner.

1. The raid will be spoiled if you wait too long.
2. You need to keep up with gear and meta in trials.

Grinding is necessary if you want to enjoy these activities to their fullest.

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We didn't have to grind to get ready for WotM, did we? To be tip-top, wrecking-Aksis-in-two-cycles shape, sure, a tiny bit, but to play it at all?

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We didn't have to grind to get ready for WotM, did we? To be tip-top, wrecking-Aksis-in-two-cycles shape, sure, a tiny bit, but to play it at all?

I am not actually sure. If others in your group were ~365, you could definitely be lower I think. But if everyone were n the 340s? No clue.

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I believe Cody was pointing out, as I often have, that for those of us who only enjoy Destiny's end game (Trials, Raids, nightfalls, etc), the rest of the game is a tiresome and exhausting grind.

:-)

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I think it may have come across as a harsh jab when I was really intending it to be a light poke.

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I think it may have come across as a harsh jab when I was really intending it to be a light poke.

I can roll with the punches. Don't worry. :-)

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Three of which were really actually 'fun' - Raids, Trials, and Crucible.

Trials and Crucible were 100% anti-fun.

The three 'fun' activities were obviously Raids, Strikes, and screwing around in Patrol making alien heads explode.

-Disciple

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I've often argued against folks like Cruel, who bemoan grinds, and who claim that you need to "grind for weeks" in Destiny to have fun or succeed. Those claims are false. You only grind as much as you want to. There are tons of different activities to do, and all of them these days help you get ahead.

Three of which were really actually 'fun' - Raids, Trials, and Crucible.

Raids are sometimes fun.

I like story missions, patrols, and strikes.

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And this is totally fair. It is similar in a lot of ways to how I feel. I am excited for Des2ny because I do want more Destiny. I just know that meaning has nothing to do with the "speaker" or intent, only what the "listener" perceives.

I'm actually trying to stay relatively dark on this game so i can be surprised. Personally I like to balance my safe experiences with my risky experiences. I know not everyone can afford that many games though. But I'm guessing I will be in for a pleasant experience with it.

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...and from the looks of it, we're going to coast off another three years of much of the same repetitive grind that we have been for the past three years.

Stopped reading there.

You buried what looks like it might have been a great opinion piece about what gamers want and about a very interesting looking new game by starting off with dumb hyperbole. You may not be excited for Destiny 2, but others like me are. I can't speak for all of them, but you certainly put me off from caring about whatever point you were actually trying to make.

See, here's the thing, man. I'm not as excited for Destiny 2 as you are, but I'm not put off by repetitive grind (you'd think the fact that I've repeatedly leveled nearly a dozen characters in Destiny would be a pretty big clue). I've already preordered the Deluxe edition of Destiny on PS4, and I'm on the fence about getting it for Xbone as well. I look forward to the next three years, even if they really do end up being repetitive grind.

That said, I'm not going to sugarcoat what Destiny is, and what it will likely always be. I don't have blinders on, so if a game studio (or person) has something that they can be called out on, I'm going to call them out. You'd think that kind of honesty and awareness would give you reason to care about the points that I'm trying to make, but it sounds like you just want to hear from those who reaffirm your perspective/bias. And that's fine, but you won't ever learn to appreciate other perspectives if that's all you ever surround yourself with.

And I dunno, that kind of makes you exactly like the folks that I talk about in the post...

My issue is exactly what I said: You buried a good article about one game under unneeded, over the top criticism about a different game.

I'd love to hear more about Senua's Sacrifice, but not from someone who is going to waste my time by being a "prominent moron" for two paragraphs before getting to his actual point. You criticized TotalBiscuit for jumping on a game he hadn't played, but I guess it's fine when you do it? "Do as I say not as I do?"

Next time, stick to the points you actually want to make and leave off the pointless opening blather.

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My issue is exactly what I said: You buried a good article about one game under unneeded, over the top criticism about a different game.

Is it over the top? Is it really criticism? I didn't say that is what it was, I specifically said "from the looks of it", judging from what we've seen so far. Is it likely? Possibly not. I think you're taking something that I inferred, and acting as though I've made an absolute statement like certain other folks around here do...

I'd love to hear more about Senua's Sacrifice, but not from someone who is going to waste my time by being a "prominent moron" for two paragraphs before getting to his actual point. You criticized TotalBiscuit for jumping on a game he hadn't played, but I guess it's fine when you do it? "Do as I say not as I do?"

But I have played Destiny 1 for all three years, and I've followed every bit of news to come out regarding Destiny 2 (and I even played the Beta, on multiple platforms, with several different groups of people!)

Was the crucible drastically different? No.
Was the strike drastically different? No.
Social Space? No.
Story mission? Bright lights and pretty colors aside, no.

So how is my observation "over the top" when I say that it's continuing a pattern that we've been on for the past three years?
We shouldn't be fanboys, man.

Next time, stick to the points you actually want to make and leave off the pointless opening blather.

Highlight something that contrasts a game, but make sure to never point out how it contrasts that game, or you'll hurt someone's feelings. Got it. Don't think that's how it works, though...

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My issue is exactly what I said: You buried a good article about one game under unneeded, over the top criticism about a different game.

Is it over the top? Is it really criticism? I didn't say that is what it was, I specifically said "from the looks of it", judging from what we've seen so far. Is it likely? Possibly not. I think you're taking something that I inferred, and acting as though I've made an absolute statement like certain other folks around here do...

That’s just another variant of “you can’t criticize me because it was only my opinion.” Yeah, you included magic words of “from the looks of it” but the rest of your phrasing and tone didn’t really allow for things like “possibly not.” Leading with a wholey negative intro only to point out that you included some get out of jail free “in my opinion” type words just makes it look like you don’t want to own up to what your opinion really was.

Besides, an opinion based on clearly incomplete facts is not worth much at all.

I'd love to hear more about Senua's Sacrifice, but not from someone who is going to waste my time by being a "prominent moron" for two paragraphs before getting to his actual point. You criticized TotalBiscuit for jumping on a game he hadn't played, but I guess it's fine when you do it? "Do as I say not as I do?"

But I have played Destiny 1 for all three years, and I've followed every bit of news to come out regarding Destiny 2 (and I even played the Beta, on multiple platforms, with several different groups of people!)

I probably played a demo of Disney Infinity 3.0 at a Toys R Us once and I saw a tech demo of Senua's Sacrifice that included zero gameplay. Oddly enough, you won’t find me drawing conclusions about the full game based on either of those things.

Was the crucible drastically different? No.

Heh. I strongly disagree! I went back to D1’s Crucible the other day and was miserable. It was sooo nice having a few days where melee combat seemed strategic and fair. Where I had more than a single magazine worth of ammo for any secondary weapon I choose. Where nobody could kill me by sticking me and simply hiding around a corner. Where the map wasn’t subdivided into slices by six different Icebreakers. Drastically different? I say: Heck yeah it was!

Was the strike drastically different? No.

No. But it was better in multiple ways. Scale. Sense of location. An interesting, challenging boss battle that cycled through multiple different mechanics.

Social Space? No.

The one hour, severely feature-limited stress test of the social space? I’ll do the right thing and hold off judgement until I see the full version.

Story mission? Bright lights and pretty colors aside, no.

Compared to most Destiny 1 missions? Yes!

So how is my observation "over the top" when I say that it's continuing a pattern that we've been on for the past three years?
We shouldn't be fanboys, man.

Because of the language and tone you used. “And yet, preorder sales are through the roof.” clearly linked back to “Eh.” “Expected.” “We've been calling it since Year 2.” & “Other than a few elements that it's borrowing from Horizon Zero Dawn (and a few other games), nothing is a surprise.”

“...we're going to coast off another three years of much of the same repetitive grind that we have been for the past three years.” was just as weighed down with negativity.

Notice how you dropped all your negative one liners in order to make your “observation” seem less like a string of personal complaints and criticisms? If you’d done that the first time I would have batted an eye at your intro.

Next time, stick to the points you actually want to make and leave off the pointless opening blather.

Highlight something that contrasts a game, but make sure to never point out how it contrasts that game, or you'll hurt someone's feelings. Got it. Don't think that's how it works, though...

Well you certainly nailed “never point out how it contrasts that game.” Since, really, your “contrast” between Destiny 2 and Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice can be summed up as: “Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice is not a sequel.” When we talk about Hellblade 2: Senua's Other Sacrifice in a few years all your “Expected.” “We’ve been calling it” and “we're going to coast off another three years of much of”’s might just apply!

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...and from the looks of it, we're going to coast off another three years of much of the same repetitive grind that we have been for the past three years.

Stopped reading there.

You buried what looks like it might have been a great opinion piece about what gamers want and about a very interesting looking new game by starting off with dumb hyperbole. You may not be excited for Destiny 2, but others like me are. I can't speak for all of them, but you certainly put me off from caring about whatever point you were actually trying to make.

he can't resist trying to piss people off, it's why he shouldn't be here, he should be in therapy or something because normal people don't enjoy making people mad
(that said you're being a little hyperbolic yourself if you actually stopped reading there, or indeed if you're not telling the truth about it)

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And yet, people are complaining... So do we want games to surprise us? Do we want developers to break away from their publishers and deliver truly unique experiences? Hellblade is the manifestation of that question, and the sales and player response will be the answer.

Since this is the proposed questions, (because the threads above are really confusing me) I'll offer an answer.

I think we just want fun games. That's it. If it's a good game, it's a good game. People are going to complain no matter what, it's how society operates now. Any blowhard can get on a forum and rant about "...a game studio (or person) has something that they can be called out on, [and] call them out. You'd think that kind of honesty and awareness would give you reason to care about the points that [they're] trying to make." but at the end of the day, it's just another post online about a game that is fun.

;)

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And yet, people are complaining... So do we want games to surprise us? Do we want developers to break away from their publishers and deliver truly unique experiences? Hellblade is the manifestation of that question, and the sales and player response will be the answer.

Since this is the proposed questions, (because the threads above are really confusing me) I'll offer an answer.

I think we just want fun games. That's it. If it's a good game, it's a good game.

Yeah, totally. And as the folks in this thread show, different people look for different kinds of "fun" in their games, which is what causes devs to play it safe and try to cater to as broad of an audience as they can... Which can lead to the problem that the whole initial post is about, really: can a game be a "good game" without catering to a broad audience?

People are going to complain no matter what, it's how society operates now. Any blowhard can get on a forum and rant about "...a game studio (or person) has something that they can be called out on, [and] call them out. You'd think that kind of honesty and awareness would give you reason to care about the points that [they're] trying to make."

Yeh, but that's why it pays to listen to multiple perspectives, I think. Sometimes you don't really think about what you could find fun and surprising. We all just want to make sure that we have "fun", of course, but sometimes a game can give us something more, something that we didn't know we wanted or needed. A new kind of "fun".

I linked to the low-scoring reviews partially to highlight that even those who are more willing to call the dev out on their shortcomings have great things to say about the experience. "Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice won't leave anyone indifferent", is how the reviewer at laPS4 put it...

but at the end of the day, it's just another post online about a game that is fun.

;)

Aren't they all? ;)

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Yeah, totally. And as the folks in this thread show, different people look for different kinds of "fun" in their games, which is what causes devs to play it safe and try to cater to as broad of an audience as they can... Which can lead to the problem that the whole initial post is about, really: can a game be a "good game" without catering to a broad audience?

Never Alone is pretty much my exact response to that question. It is around 70 for metacritic scores, and generally got mixed reviews. But it is a work of art with built in cultural learning and context. It was a great experience. But I know it is not the sort of game with broad appeal in many, many ways.

Albeit there is no flat answer. I think it becomes a question of scale and who is monetarily invested in it on what audience size is aimed for. Personally? Most of my favorite games are more targeted experiences with niche appeal with a subset of broad appeal games rounding out my library. And that is not for everyone.

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Never Alone is pretty much my exact response to that question. It is around 70 for metacritic scores, and generally got mixed reviews. But it is a work of art with built in cultural learning and context. It was a great experience. But I know it is not the sort of game with broad appeal in many, many ways.

Well FWIW, I'm with you on that one. Never Alone was an unforgettable experience for me.

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Gotta say I've been intrigued by this title ever since I saw the mere seconds of announcement footage. I'm glad someone out there is taking risks.

The thing is, I think this puts us right smack back in the middle of the "games as art" argument. Many folks will argue good art doesn't leave one comfortable. I happen to agree. And without having read much of the press, I expect a lot of detractors will level criticisms at tossing out established gameplay conventions. I only wish more devs would follow suit and innovate. But, y'know, everybody wants dat guaranteed AAA cashmoney.

But what the larger currents within the industry are prone to doing is just the opposite: making the player feel comfortable, yet powerful. As a number of us are aware, Bungie isn't quite in the business of innovation; moreso refinement and implementation. I'll admit the parts of D2 that I'm really excited about are all the PvE activities. I enjoyed the difference in gameplay in the new Crucible, but I don't expect it to keep traction with me the way other things have in recent months.

I do look forward to seeing Mara Sov again, though.

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Gotta say I've been intrigued by this title ever since I saw the mere seconds of announcement footage. I'm glad someone out there is taking risks.

The thing is, I think this puts us right smack back in the middle of the "games as art" argument. Many folks will argue good art doesn't leave one comfortable. I happen to agree. And without having read much of the press, I expect a lot of detractors will level criticisms at tossing out established gameplay conventions. I only wish more devs would follow suit and innovate. But, y'know, everybody wants dat guaranteed AAA cashmoney.

But it is for more fun (for me, and I need to say that since you can't tell fact from opinion) to learn and explore new game systems. To figure them out master, then exploit them. Especially when they go beyond what you'd expect and have high levels of "multiplicative Design". Discovering, mastering, and having things click is very satisfying.

I was positively floored with the Destiny Alpha, but the Beta for Des2ny was kind of a blip. Perhaps because it really presented nothing majorly new. Nearly 100% of my skills from Destiny carried over.

Also good art can leave you both comfortable and uncomfortable. Lack of comfort is not a requirement for good art. IN MY OPINON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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This entire thread has entertained me greatly! :D

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... is not anyone elses failure in understanding.

I think your point regarding art being both comfortable and uncomfortable is a good one to make, however. As quality in art is not defined in either sphere. It nicely mirrors your consideration of familiarity and comfort in opposition to learning and mastery. Neither one is in itself better or worse, but the individual brings themselves into the experience and that is a very important detail to consider as that is essential to individual experiences in art.

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... is not anyone elses failure in understanding.

This. And acting like it is, is super obnoxious.

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But it is for more fun (for me, and I need to say that since you can't tell fact from opinion)

I'm pretty sure Xenos has made the most relevant point in this thread.

It's not about other people not knowing that your opinion is an opinion. It's about your choice of phrasing making it unclear whether you have any respect for anyone else in the conversation.

When you state an opinion in a way that others state facts, you suggest (whether you mean to or not) that there is no other reasonable interpretation of the facts. That, in turn, suggests that our opinions, where they differ from yours, are unworthy of consideration.

Nobody wants you to add "IN MY OPINION" to every statement you make (especially since at this point you're doing it in the most sarcastic, obnoxious way possible). We want you to phrase your opinion in a way that TIES IT TO YOU ("I feel", "to me", "I thought", etc etc etc etc etc).

I know you're a brighter person than you're appearing in this thread. (And a nicer one.) You should show the rest of the forum that my opinion of you is correct. :)

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I only wish more devs would follow suit and innovate. But, y'know, everybody wants dat guaranteed AAA cashmoney.

I'm not sure exactly where I stand on the argument, but that right there is where I lean towards "most games aren't art." If the primary motivation of a game is to be a viable product that makes tons of money, it doesn't really seem like art, which should exist for its own sake.

That's not saying games aren't artful, but that's not the same thing as being art.

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A great deal of art, especially classical and traditional arts, were professions. They existed first and foremost to make money. In any case where it was not a hobby of the wealthy art throughout history has been about making money - or at the very least making a living. That does not diminish the creativity and quality-of-craft that was put into it nor the historical perspective on the work as a piece of cultural, aesthetic communication.

Commodification of art does not diminish art unless one feels commodification diminishes everything.

So, even if a publisher is pushing it for the dosh-dosh-dosh, I would say it is unfair to associate any desire to earn money through the product of the creative process makes something less art.

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Commodification of art does not diminish art unless one feels commodification diminishes everything.

It's actually improved art. You wouldn't have any modern films or game without commodification. Nobody is going to spend 100 million dollars of their own money just to make some art. Art as commodity means you get tons of resources.

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To assume 'gamers' is a homogeneous mass of people which want the same thing is demonstrably short-sighted. Hell, it's the only logical conclusion from your survey of reviews.

I, for one, both want games that surprise me AND games that presents concepts I'm already comfortable with. Which games from which category, however, I'll have a hard time predicting until I do play.

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I, for one, both want games that surprise me AND games that presents concepts I'm already comfortable with. Which games from which category, however, I'll have a hard time predicting until I do play.

In some sense, every game presents concept you are comfortable with. For instance, a gun is going to shoot and go bang. A horse will trot and gallop, etc. Only the most abstract type of game is going to completely surprise you. Even simple things like the left stick moving a character are hard to deviate from.

I find that I am surprised the most by unexpected complexity. For instance, being able to do something I wouldn't expect but that still makes sense. Like in Beyond Two Souls, just being able to walk right out the door exiting the bar. If you stay, you get assaulted, but the game hints something isn't right. Usually you simply don't get the ability to disengage like that.

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Indeed.

Not only that, but a game can blaze a new stunning trail in one area and suck in another. Maybe Senua's Sacrifice knocks it out of the park in storytelling and characters but it does have some bad gameplay mechanics like that one reviewer said.

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Indeed.

Not only that, but a game can blaze a new stunning trail in one area and suck in another. Maybe Senua's Sacrifice knocks it out of the park in storytelling and characters but it does have some bad gameplay mechanics like that one reviewer said.

Or the other way around. Like that other reviewer said.

Or maybe it doesn't suck at all, and both of those guys are off. :)

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I'm intrigued by Hellblade--thanks for the heads-up.

BTW, I'm not sure that Bungie doesn't have surprises in store. I think they've been very careful about setting expectations this go-round.

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I'm intrigued by Hellblade--thanks for the heads-up.

BTW, I'm not sure that Bungie doesn't have surprises in store. I think they've been very careful about setting expectations this go-round.

I am looking forward to surprises in the raid. All the raids are fun, but I think a lot of people have adapted to the mechanical language of them by now. I want to come across a boss or a section and have no freaking clue what to do.

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YES, I want to be surprised by 'new' games.

Hellblade, as you've indicated, is something surprising. I am very interested in it and it just might make it into my game port folio when it's on XBox.

As for your Destiny comments, you could have just used "Generic FPS Game A" and avoided all the hoop-la I see here.

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So nothing about Destiny 2 has really gotten me pumped. New Subclasses? Eh. New worlds to explore? Expected. Large-scale Cabal assault? We've been calling it since Year 2. Other than a few elements that it's borrowing from Horizon Zero Dawn(and a few other games), nothing is a surprise.

(From Bold) That comment is beyond disingenuous. That's... just not fair.

And yet, preorder sales are through the roof. People who whined and moaned about the first game have been saying good things about what they see, and from the looks of it, we're going to coast off another three years of much of the same repetitive grind that we have been for the past three years. And for the most part, we are all okay with that. We know that not enough will change to make it a brand new experience. We know that people will continue to have the same complaints that they had before, as Bungie has clearly played it safe (remove Specials, remove self-rez, remove random stats, remove variety)... Players say that they want drastic changes, that they want things to be fresh, but they clearly don't, given the preorders and buzz...

(From Bold) That presumes we know the truth behind the numbers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but while we may know of numbers, we do not know who is behind them.

And this week, an experiment has come along to challenge that complacency. It throws standard conventions out the window, and gives us something different for a change... And the reactions have been very mixed, which has gotten me thinking.

A far too late "Uh Oh" is in order then. *Ahem* - Uh! *Dramatic......PAUSE!* OH!

The experiment is Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice ...

... Now let's talk about the things that it does different.

The one you've likely heard about (if nothing else), is that the game has a mandatory permadeath feature if you die too much. Except it doesn't. But it does. What's going on? It ties into what the game even IS. The game has you playing a character, Senua, who suffers from psychosis. And not just in a Dead Space "you hallucinate sometimes" way, either. The game does everything that it can to put you into Senua's shoes. When you load up the game, it recommends that you play the game with headphones (3D Audio is not only supported, but recommended), and then you're thrown into the world with no tutorials, no explanation of what's what. There are voices that constantly plague you. They help you... Sometimes. Other times, they'll mock you, they'll disturb you, and worse, they might even flat-out lie to you. When you die, the game will inform you of the permadeath that will happen if you fail too much. And you'll have that looming over you for the rest of the game. Every hit that an enemy lands is that much more terrifying. Every death a gamble... Some folks immediately jumped on Ninja Theory to denounce the feature (including prominent moron TotalBiscuit, who ended up sheepishly deleting his tweet once it was pointed out to him how much of an idiot he is, because he hadn't even played a single minute of the game).

So in other words its Schizophrenia - THE GAME. I approve.

So that really caught my attention. It's something that you never see in games these days: true punishment. And some people rage about it, while others praise it (and in the end, it may just be intended to make you uneasy rather than actually going through with its threat, which fits thematically, since you're not supposed to be sure about anything that you see or hear in the game, and it's clearly working, since people don't even know how to trigger it)...

In fact, each of the things that Hellblade does differently, such as no tutorials, no HUD, no hand-holding of any sort, and the looming threat of actual consequence... it's all being criticized by a large portion of the gaming community. And the funny thing is that reviewers themselves, who did play the game from beginning to end, love it. It currently holds an 81 on Metacritic. And something that was funny to me is how not all reviewers loved the same things.

For example, while one of the lowest-scoring reviewers (METRO) said:

A technical masterpiece with some of the best swordfighting combat in years, but the storytelling and puzzle elements come across as muddled and awkwardly mismatched.

another of the lower-scoring reviewers (Vandal) said:

Although gameplay-wise is far from Ninja Theory’s best works, the universe and the story are outstanding.

They pretty much praised and criticized the exact opposite of what the other said. And these are the people who gave some of the lowest scores.

Yea? So... Humans like different things. No Way... News at 11.

_______________________________________________

Another thing that Ninja Theory did differently is the self-publishing that I talked about earlier. People like to hiss and spit at Activision, and at Bungie's partnership with Activision, and many wonder what it would have been like without that union.

Ninja Theory has done just that. They funded the game themselves, using their own resources and a tiny team, and it's blown my mind. The entire game was developed by a team of thirteen people. The main character, Senua, is played by Ninja Theory's video editor, who helped put out nearly 30 fantastic Dev diaries. The studio used this freedom to put out an experience quite unlike any other, that's being praised by reviewers, and is being sold for $30, half the price of a standard game release. The game includes both a 4K mode, and a 60Hz mode for 60Fps. It has a Photo Mode. It's everything that people say they want!

It is pretty fantastic what we can do as a species when we come together. Helps even more when there is common thing we love to do too.

And yet, people are complaining... So do we want games to surprise us? Do we want developers to break away from their publishers and deliver truly unique experiences? Hellblade is the manifestation of that question, and the sales and player response will be the answer.

Let me rebut that with; Is that really surprising? The goldilocks zone varies from person to person, again, news at 11.

To me, it seems the question should be; Do people know what they are getting into when they play this game? In till the day comes where we get a Holodeck and can do whatever we want, there will always exist the question "What can I do" in games. I'm all for being thrown into the deep end, especially if it helps with the so called immersion factor. TO "live" anothers skin, which seems to be part of this games goal as you describe it.

Yet if I didn't know what I was about to experience, and I'm thrown in, and I want to do something but I don't know how or if I can do it within this or any game - that's frustrating. It's a bit like being tied up while being thrown in; no one wants to drown. Based on what I see from this post alone, it seems the creators got too clever and creative for the own good of their game. It's not that we don't want to be surprised, just we don't know what we are about to get into. From the trailers alone (didn't click the links) its obvious it's not a very happy game, it's hella gritty, but...that's it. It seems more a marketing issue from this side. WHAT IS THIS? WHAT ARE YOU SELLING?

They are defying convention, which is GREAT! WAY TO GO! BUT! There needs to be a warning, which can be done in a number of ways. If the person playing doesn't understand "What happened", that's crazy frustrating. These are the questions asked while a game is made. That's why there are test groups. Something can be great on paper, but suck in practice.

If I was part of this team, I would suggest to sell the mindset. THAT seems to be the main game play of this game as you describe it, but I'm not getting that AT ALL from the content provided. Looks to be some old world Gears of War. Is that what it is? I don't know!

RUN PUNY MORTAL! BAW-HAHAHAAH!

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On the difference between reviewers' opinions and the general audience's opinions:

Game reviewers live in a weird little bubble. The ones that work for big sites, and even some prominent independent youtuber types live in a world in which they play the vast majority of noteworthy releases, and they often play them for free. I always have a feeling that they look for completely different things than a lot of people. They've played or had the opportunity to play almost everything--it's literally in the job description. They are much more likely to be on the look out for new, interesting, surprising things.

I want those things, too, but on the other hand, I give up my hard earned money to play games, so yeah, I'm going to spend $60 on Destiny 2, which I'm 99% that I'll really enjoy, rather than on Nier: Automata, which got rave reviews, but still only looks moderately interesting to me (and the demo did absolutely nothing for me).

As much as I want new, cool experiences (hence taking a chance on Pyre!), I'll always put my money on the the sure bet that I'll get hundreds of hours out of, versus the new, interesting thing that I might hate. I have enough disposable income that I can pretty comfortably buy whatever game I want nearly whenever I want, but I don't think most gamers realistically fall into that category.

I think there's a pretty huge difference between what reviewers value in games, due to them playing so many and seeing the same things so often, versus the average consumer that can't afford to play everything, so they'll always buy CoD or Battlefield or Madden or whatever, because they know they like it, and $60 is a lot of money to some folks. Something new and weird will always stick out to a person who's job is to literally play the same old tired shit all the time.

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Unless I'm completely confident I will enjoy the game, like Destiny, which I know enough about to ensure this, I read 3-4 reviews of a game. I look up gameplay videos, and sometimes go on howlongtobeat. I read the plot, if I care. If it's been out a while, I read a walkthrough. Then I buy.

Same thing with movies. I read a review of the blu ray and its features, if the transfer was good and from what source it came, read a plot synopsis, and so on.

I do not want to be surprised by a game.

EDIT: actually, when someone starts talking about a movie or TV show or game that sounds vaguely interesting, I push him for the plot, and say "how does it end," to know if I want to bother. Like, I don't want to bother with Breaking Bad, for example.

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I do not want to be surprised by a game.

I want to try to understand your position. If you are never surprised… never challenged… then what difference does it make if you play a game versus watch the game being played? How can you have fun making interactive choices if the choices themselves don't feel unique and interesting?

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Same way playing basketball against your big brother is fun even though you'll lose and you know it.

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Same way playing basketball against your big brother is fun even though you'll lose and you know it.

But that is full of interesting choices… full of practice and self improvement.

Would you play a game you knew you were never going to be able to finish? One where you'd always see the gameover screen?

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No, it's full of bouncing and throwing a ball, which is fun.

If a game is fun, I'll play it. Still haven't beaten SMB3, for example. I know I never will. I still play it at my parents house.

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If not, that's a damn shame. One of my favorite moments in gaming was when the plot of Halo CE turned on its side and I wasn't expecting it.

I get wanting to be sure I'll enjoy my life choices, but that's different than knowing every step along the way. I'm with Cody on this one: surprise can be a great delight in life. It's a shame about the cold death of the universe. I liked it better when compression and expansion were both still in the running.

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I look up the plot only if I'm not completely sure I'll enjoy the game beforehand. I requested Halo for Christmas with my Xbox, completely sure I would enjoy it. I knew nothing other than what was in magazines and that it was made by those guys who made Marathon, which I had enjoyed at my friend's house.

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I look up the plot only if I'm not completely sure I'll enjoy the game beforehand. I requested Halo for Christmas with my Xbox, completely sure I would enjoy it. I knew nothing other than what was in magazines and that it was made by those guys who made Marathon, which I had enjoyed at my friend's house.

Back when I was 20 years old, skydiving was something I always wanted to try. I thought that the people who could do it frequently were very lucky people, and never imagined I could do that. It seemed like such a different life, foreign to me.

I finally decided one day to give it a shot. I phoned up and booked a first jump course. The course was 4 hours Friday night, 4 hours Saturday morning, and then the first jump. Friday night I drove an hour to the dropzone. I'd never been there before. The sun was setting and it was dark and completely unfamiliar. I remember thinking it was a bad idea, that I should be on campus with my friends like on a normal Friday night. This wasn't familiar, and it wasn't ME. I don't know any of these people. What would they think of me?

The class went fine and everyone was really nice. I slept in the barn at the airport, which was again a very unfamiliar experience. Waking up and eating my Cheerios, I could barely get them in my mouth because my spoon was shaking so much. Again, I thought… I shouldn't be here. I don't know what to expect.

After that first time though… I was glad I did it. Now, 1600 jumps later I've been to many places with many people, made many new friends, and had many awesome unforgettable experiences. But that wouldn't have happened had I not made that phone call because I was worried about not enjoying it.

I moved to LA not knowing a single person. That was incredibly uncomfortable. Being downtown looking around and not having a room or a home to go back to and feel safe… well that was a weird feeling. I could have easily not taken that chance and stayed in Michigan, where it was familiar. But it paid off big time. I don't want to be anywhere else.

I wanted to write a book on Bungie. Who am I? Why would anyone talk to me? How am I to compete with all the other writers and journalists out there? What if I ask for an interview and I am rejected? I am glad I tackled that uncertainty, because I now have interviews with 30 different people to help tell the story. This story is ongoing, but it's already more than I ever imagined.

Some of the best games I ever played were complete unexpected pleasures that I normally would not have though to try. Same thing in life.

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You always wanted to go skydiving. And you did. You wanted to write a book about Bungie. So you are. Congrats, you have a will.

I moved to countries where I haven't spoken the language and knew nobody and had no place to stay, sleeping in parks until I had enough money. Because I wanted to go to Greece or whatever.

I ride motorcycles, I started a fountain pen website, I learned guitar, I was in a band. I wanted to do these things beforehand.

I wanted to buy Borderlands 2, based off Borderlands. So I did.

I wanted to buy Bioshock based on my actual ideals being those lambasted by the game. So I did.

I wanted to buy Tomb Raider based on gameplay videos, reviews, and reading the plot synopsis. So I did.

Oh man, I must not take any chances and be a shut-in because I wasn't sure about a game until I researched it thoroughly.

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You always wanted to go skydiving. And you did. You wanted to write a book about Bungie. So you are. Congrats, you have a will.

I moved to countries where I haven't spoken the language and knew nobody and had no place to stay, sleeping in parks until I had enough money. Because I wanted to go to Greece or whatever.

I ride motorcycles, I started a fountain pen website, I learned guitar, I was in a band. I wanted to do these things beforehand.

I wanted to buy Borderlands 2, based off Borderlands. So I did.

I wanted to buy Bioshock based on my actual ideals being those lambasted by the game. So I did.

I wanted to buy Tomb Raider based on gameplay videos, reviews, and reading the plot synopsis. So I did.

Oh man, I must not take any chances and be a shut-in because I wasn't sure about a game until I researched it thoroughly.

Based on that, how can you say you don't like surprises and the unexpected? Unless you hated that experience in Greece that sounds like you took a chance. I have difficulty seeing how that thirst for adventure would be quelled when it comes to picking up a video game.

You yourself have said before you do not like things like blind raiding, and would rather be told what to do. You can want to pick up a game and still be surprised. Technically everything we do is because we want to. Everything.

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You always wanted to go skydiving. And you did. You wanted to write a book about Bungie. So you are. Congrats, you have a will.

I moved to countries where I haven't spoken the language and knew nobody and had no place to stay, sleeping in parks until I had enough money. Because I wanted to go to Greece or whatever.

I ride motorcycles, I started a fountain pen website, I learned guitar, I was in a band. I wanted to do these things beforehand.

I wanted to buy Borderlands 2, based off Borderlands. So I did.

I wanted to buy Bioshock based on my actual ideals being those lambasted by the game. So I did.

I wanted to buy Tomb Raider based on gameplay videos, reviews, and reading the plot synopsis. So I did.

Oh man, I must not take any chances and be a shut-in because I wasn't sure about a game until I researched it thoroughly.

Based on that, how can you say you don't like surprises and the unexpected? Unless you hated that experience in Greece that sounds like you took a chance. I have difficulty seeing how that thirst for adventure would be quelled when it comes to picking up a video game.

You yourself have said before you do not like things like blind raiding, and would rather be told what to do. You can want to pick up a game and still be surprised. Technically everything we do is because we want to. Everything.

Wait... am I reading this wrong, or do you really believe that people would have the same reasons for moving to Greece as they would for playing a video game?

I have a 'thirst for adventure'... sometimes. I do things that might turn out badly, and sometimes they don't. But I don't have the same risk assessment process apply to a scuba diving trip as to a purchase of a laundry hamper - why are you surprised that Funk treats gameplaying differently than other life experiences?

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Wait... am I reading this wrong, or do you really believe that people would have the same reasons for moving to Greece as they would for playing a video game?

You are reading it wrong. Or I am not communicating correctly.

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My word, that is A lot of jumping.

Was the first jump such an ordeal because you wanted to avoid tandem jumping?

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I look up the plot only if I'm not completely sure I'll enjoy the game beforehand. I requested Halo for Christmas with my Xbox, completely sure I would enjoy it. I knew nothing other than what was in magazines and that it was made by those guys who made Marathon, which I had enjoyed at my friend's house.

Awesome. So... you do like surprise (or at least are okay with it), just maybe not the kind Korny was talking about. Makes more sense.

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So I've never heard of this game, but it sounds cool. I'm also very unlikely to play it any time soon, because my backlog of games is extensive (having a kid, I pretty much only get to play after he goes to bed, and then after the wife and I watch something on TV, so... rarely). BUT... In my single years I would totally buy this. Hell, I will likely buy it in the future, too. It sounds awesome on a purely mechanical level. I'm intrigued.

That being said, I'm also an outlier. I've played more games than most humans. Heck, it was my job for two glorious weeks to play every FPS game currently for sale at GameStop as "market research" to help fine tune Call of Duty's online multiplayer. I don't even remember all the games I played (it was like 5 a day, just to ensure I got to play a bit of all of them). My point is, I've seen some shit. I know games, I've played games. And, in the last five years or so, I've really been searching for games with novel mechanics that draw me in.

Back in the old days of Mac Gaming (Yes, i'm one of those), before every game in a genre was basically the same game reskinned, there were some great games like Quarterstaff, which featured interactive characters you could talk to, or Wizardry, which invented prestige classes, though no one knew that's what they'd be called when DnD finally did the same thing years later, or Citadel, which had too many novel features to include here, but I'll list a few: Parentage and upbringing determined your starting stats and available classes, spells were discovered as graffiti in the lower levels on the dungeon, so if you never looked at the walls you'd miss some important ones, though you could always experiment by randomly mixing runes to see if a new effect occurred, and combat was a 2D map where you could move freely and attack anyone within the radius on your weapon - all things I'd never seen before.

Now, as time has passed, we have a shorthand for most games. A yellow ! means they have a quest for you, good items are Purple, For some reason the entire way the game is played changes if you hit max level (seriously I hate that design element of modern games). It's... boring. Especially when games don't invest in a story to keep you hooked. Like, WHY should I spend my limited free time playing your game which is the same as everyone else's game? I played all of 5 minutes of the latest CoD because holy shit it's basically Destiny. Think bigger, guys.

So here you present me with a question: Do I want my games to surprise me? The answer is a resounding YES. I do. I have grown bored of the tired tropes of triple-A tripe. I yearn for the novel, the original, the unexpected. Save the Date was a revelation to me. Horizon Zero Dawn was a delightful surprise. I did not even bother buying Mass Effect Andromeda despite being enthralled with ME3's multiplayer. In a space where anything you can think to make is possible, making the same old thing is lazy at best. And I get it. The formula for corporate profits is minimal investment for maximal return. This is why Madden is just a stat update with 1 new feature every year. And why CoD is now aping Destiny. And why freemium games that are basically slot machines couched in competitive gameplay are all the rage (Hearthstone, anyone?).

If you don't game as much as I do, if you haven't lived through the development of the gamer shorthand and seen what it was when no one agreed on what it had to be, then you probably like that you can pick up any game and "get it" right away. I certainly did for a while. But I've changed. And now I want to be surprised.

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First of all, Ninja Theory should definitely be commended for the effort that they've put into this game. You definitely can't tell that it's an indie game, since they've squeezed everything out of their available resources. Everything from visual (they integrate some live-action visuals into different parts of the game, such as when you interact with the stone faces hidden on the levels) to audio (playing with headphones, especially with 3D audio, feels essential) is used to full effect, and rather than sticking out, it blends seamlessly into the rest of the experience. The old saying "Poor people are crafty" definitely applies, and the polish in everything that they do have is top notch (especially in an age where every other indie game is a 2D pixel/sprite platformer).

Anyway, I played a good bit, and I've enjoyed the experience quite a bit, even though it's pretty stressful and weird (to top it off, due to some remodeling and the way the cables are set up, my TV is on top of a cabinet, so I had to stand the entire time that I was playing, adding an extra bit of weirdness to the whole thing). Early on, you are given a choice of two paths that you can take. I got through most of the Valravn section, so when Sammy started that part, I told her that I could help her out if she got stuck... except the game surprised me. One section that was a simple puzzle for me was now a multi-part puzzle for her. The voices in her head gave her a different piece of advice than they had given me, and I could only help her with half of the puzzle. Shortly after, she had to do an entire puzzle room that I didn't see at all, so I couldn't do anything but watch her solve it herself. It threw me off and left me confused, and I wasn't even the one playing.

There was also a cool moment with the boss battle that I don't want to spoil, but Sammy's frustration made her blurt out something about the boss that was infuriating her, and a second later, she had an "A-ha!" look on her face as she figured out what she had to do to counter the frustrating aspect of the fight. Despite getting curb-stomped for much of the fight, she instantly turned it around once she had it figured out, and she managed to narrowly avoid one of those potentially-costly deaths.

Anyway, I thought that was cool, and I also think it's neat that when I go through the rooms that she did, I might run into different puzzles or fights.

Also, this game definitely isn't for everyone, but if nothing else, you should really experience the sequence where Senua dies in combat for the first time; definitely on my list of most memorable death sequences in gaming...

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You convinced me--I bought it.

Only played about an hour or so, but I've really enjoyed what I've played so far. The presentation alone pulled me in (seriously, headphones are a MUST for this game). Between Uncharted 4, Horizon, and now this, I'm a genuinely amazed at how good PS4 games are looking.

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You convinced me--I bought it.

I'm always happy to be a positive influence. It's what I live for, really. :v

Only played about an hour or so, but I've really enjoyed what I've played so far.

I've seen most reviewers finish it in 6-8 hours. It bummed me a bit that they seemed to have rushed through, because it took Sammy about 10 hours, and I'm over a dozen hours into the game, and I'm just under 3/4 of the way through (judging from the Lorestones, which I'm making an effort to find every single one on my first playthrough). There are a lot of hidden Lorestones that give you context for the areas that you are in, mostly through short retellings of Norse and Celtic mythologies. I can't go into them without getting into spoiler territory, but Sammy and I had some neat talks about the actual mythologies versus how they fit into the context of the game, and what lessons Senua was meant to learn from them, but it seems like most reviewers have skipped them for the sake of getting to the end credits.

The presentation alone pulled me in (seriously, headphones are a MUST for this game). Between Uncharted 4, Horizon, and now this, I'm a genuinely amazed at how good PS4 games are looking.

There aren't many games in recent memory that have brought tears to my eyes, but this game really hits you hard once the credits start rolling, and I couldn't even hear the last hour of the game, since Sammy had her headphones on. I could really go on and on about it, but despite a few nitpicks (early on, the game leads you to believe that you'll be able to revisit previous areas, but after a certain point, that is no longer the case, and if you miss a Lorestone, you've missed it for good), it's a fantastic experience from beginning to end, and even my nitpicks have subtle solutions (Each Lorestone has a mark on it for each area, which lets you know which ones you missed before you head to the next region. And Lorestones aren't required for anything, but there is an acknowledgement for finding them all in a single playthrough, and like I said, they really add to the experience).

Plus, it really stood out to me that Sammy went from frustrated, angry, and scared in the beginning (so much so that she had me do a particularly spoopy segment for her) to charging in face-first against hordes of enemies and a multi-boss fight in Hel itself for Senua's sake. The story really gets you to care about the characters that well...

Anyway, I really recommend watching the documentary included after you finish the game, because it really puts into perspective how much effort was put into nailing the psychosis elements of the game. As PSLifestyle's Michael Bryers put it, "by working closely with neuroscientists and those unfortunate few who have been diagnosed as psychotic, Hellblade carefully avoids those cheap, half-assed tropes that render a character insane and, therefore, woefully one-dimensional. Not only does it act as a disservice to those who suffer with mental illness, this practice of painting in broad strokes only minimizes the room for nuance, but Senua’s Sacrifice boldly cuts through the white noise". It's not only a great game in terms of story or the experience that it gives, but it also uses the medium to say something worth saying, which I feel is worth recognizing.

Anyway, since I have far too much rushing through my head that I don't want to talk about because spoilers, I'll end my post with some non-spoilery 4K screenshots that I hope you enjoy...

And if you're not too bothered by Spoilers, visual or otherwise, check these below...

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or maybe it's just not a very good game, and maybe the perma-death feature is pointless if you have two working hands, and maybe the whole mental illness thing is shit: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/117136-Zero-PUnctuation-Reviews-Hellblade

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or maybe it's just not a very good game,

Experienced it twice, loved it twice, going to start another playthrough, and it's one of the few games that Sammy enjoys enough to play through more than once, so I'm pretty confident in saying that I feel like it's a great game.

and maybe the perma-death feature is pointless if you have two working hands,

Ultimately it isn't a real threat, but just another way that the game makes you feel uneasy. It's technically not a lie, but for those who play it on Hard difficulty, racking up deaths does get more and more stressful, especially since the infection can become visually misleading... Even knowing that the permadeath wasn't exactly what folks thought it was, I became pretty anxious near the end, despite only dying a small handful of times. It's a neat tool used very effectively by the devs.

and maybe the whole mental illness thing is shit:

Nah, the mental illness thing was used to great effect, and the context and different ways that they implemented it is shown in a documentary that comes with the game apart from the numerous ViDocs that they released over the past couple of years.

Unless you're an expert in mental health issues, it helps to actually play the game to know what you're talking about. ;)

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Nope, but people have confirmed that it does indeed exist, although there is no consistent way to trigger it, so the conditions remain a mystery (which I think is neat). One reviewer died eighteen times to a single enemy, and didn't trigger rot growth, while some folks have tried spacing it out over several checkpoints without success.

I had a particularly tough section where I died about four times to the same group of enemies, and the rot shot up above Senua's shoulders (permadeath occurs when the rot reaches her brain). I was extremely tense for a while, until I died again about an hour later, and the rot actually receded back down her arm. Compare this first picture that I took shortly before that death, and the super-spoilery one that I took shortly after:

So yeah, it's there, and the threat can grow suddenly and apparently recede even faster, so there's no conclusive way to gauge it, which I think just adds to the genius of it being something that has you uneasy as it looms behind you...

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So yeah, it's there, and the threat can grow suddenly and apparently recede even faster, so there's no conclusive way to gauge it, which I think just adds to the genius of it being something that has you uneasy as it looms behind you...

or it's just a bug

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So yeah, it's there, and the threat can grow suddenly and apparently recede even faster, so there's no conclusive way to gauge it, which I think just adds to the genius of it being something that has you uneasy as it looms behind you...

or it's just a bug

I hope you aren't this toxic and negative in real life, dude, you really need to...

Anyway, intentional or not (given the way the game is designed, it's likely intentional), anything that adds to a game experience in a positive way is definitely a feature, and the rot's mysterious nature is definitely something cool, regardless of what some simple-minded negative nancies who haven't played the game at all (TotatBiscuit, specifically) say. I recommend it! ;)

PS. If all of your saltiness comes from the fact that it's not on Xbox, it is available on PC as well, so don't feel too bad, you can still check it out!

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So yeah, it's there, and the threat can grow suddenly and apparently recede even faster, so there's no conclusive way to gauge it, which I think just adds to the genius of it being something that has you uneasy as it looms behind you...

or it's just a bug

I hope you aren't this toxic

toxic

That's a laugh, seeing you use that word.
I guess you gave up on the whole "noble Political Incorrectness Warrior against the Social Justice Warriors" thing because they already lost.
Let's see another quote from another post:

Is it over the top? Is it really criticism?

Is saying they're coasting and playing it safe and not doing what people (read: you) wanted criticism? Yes, it is, and you're slipping if you think you can deny it.
At least I'm not so """toxic""" I actively tried to make someone leave the forum forever for the sin of trying to make a living.

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Do we really want games to surprise us? (Gaming)