Gameindustry.biz Pete Parsons interview

Gameindustry.biz has an interview with Pete Parsons it talks quite a bit about their preparation for Destiny in terms of preparing for a 10 year IP instead of for one game at a time. It's an interesting read!

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"Unlikely to happen. Especially since you said up front that you WANT it to happen. You can't design a cultural touchstone -- you can only discover them."
- Ginnie Bowen

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/127185-Bungie-Wants-Destiny-to-Have-Star-Wars-Cultural-Impact

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"Unlikely to happen. Especially since you said up front that you WANT it to happen. You can't design a cultural touchstone -- you can only discover them."
- Ginnie Bowen

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/127185-Bungie-Wants-Destiny-to-Have-Star-Wars-Cultural-Impact

Not really sure what she's getting at, actually.

Bungie says "We bottled lightning with Halo. We think Destiny can be even bigger."

How does this ensure that they'll fail? (Okay, she didn't say they'd fail. She suggested that WANTING people to look back on their experience with Destiny and class it up there with LotR or Star Wars was somehow going to make it LESS likely that people would actually do that. Seems like about as hipster-ish as you can get without the glasses.)

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Halo was lightning captured in a bottle sure, but you can't just make another bottle and expect lightning already to be in it.

This is like saying you want to make a viral video. You can't. Just make good videos and maybe if you're lucky one will get watched by more than 10 people.

Are you maybe just eye-rolled out after the Batman announcement?

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Halo was lightning captured in a bottle sure, but you can't just make a another bottle and expect lightning already to be in it.

This is like saying you want to make a viral video. You can't. Just make good videos and maybe if you're lucky one will get watched by more than 10 people.

Are you maybe just eye-rolled out after the Batman announcement?

To me this is like saying "The Beatles caught lightning in a bottle 20+ times!" Bungie is not an unknown company, they don't have to recatch lightning in a bottle, they know what they're doing. Rooster Teeth still makes amazing new content all the time, and much of it goes viral. Most companies only have to catch the lightning once and be good at their jobs to be successful a second time.

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RTs most popular video has 23 million views and it's about Angry Birds. That's not viral, that's a popular YT entity making a funny video about a viral phenomenon.

Gangnam Style is a video by a previously unknown korean, singing nonsense with 1.7 billion views. That's viral.

To say you want your game to be a cultural touchstone like Star Wars, LoTR and Harry Potter, which have much different beginnings, just highlights that you don`t understand what make them that popular. Here`s a hint: No one does.

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RTs most popular video has 23 million views and it's about Angry Birds. That's not viral, that's a popular YT entity making a funny video about a viral phenomenon.

Gangnam Style is a video by a previously unknown korean, singing nonsense with 1.7 billion views. That's viral.

To say you want your game to be a cultural touchstone like Star Wars, LoTR and Harry Potter, which have much different beginnings, just highlights that you don`t understand what make them that popular. Here`s a hint: No one does.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it is wrong to state what you want something to be. Bungie has long been known for aiming really big, it doesn't seem like a bad thing to set a goal that even you are not sure you can achieve, especially when it comes to popularity. To me I read their desires as "We already made one of the biggest video game franchises in the world, now let's aim for making one of the largest entertainment franchises in the world."

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RTs most popular video has 23 million views and it's about Angry Birds. That's not viral, that's a popular YT entity making a funny video about a viral phenomenon.

Gangnam Style is a video by a previously unknown korean, singing nonsense with 1.7 billion views. That's viral.

To say you want your game to be a cultural touchstone like Star Wars, LoTR and Harry Potter, which have much different beginnings, just highlights that you don`t understand what make them that popular. Here`s a hint: No one does.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it is wrong to state what you want something to be.

Because it betrays your intentions. If you are making a game with the purpose of it being a huge cultural phenomenon, then your motives are not pure and you aren't making the game with the desire of merely making a good game. It's like the girl who moves to Hollywood to take up acting in order to become famous, versus the girl who loves acting, but happens to become famous because she's really good and dedicated.

Such a statement just reeks of insecurity. Games like Mario didn't become cultural phenomenons because they were designed to be, they became widely known because they were fucking amazing games. The folks making these games cared about making the best game they could and nothing else. In fact, if you ever wondered why so many pseudonyms are used in the credits of older 8 and 16 bit games, it's because a lot of the programmers were embarrassed to be working on video games rather than 'legitimate' software, but did so anyway because they loved it, even if it was bad for their career prospects!

What kind of cultural impact did Marathon or Myth make? None. But does that diminish what good games they are, or all the fun all the Bungie fans since then have had playing those games?

See, most good art is good because the artists are passionate about their art or the ideas they wish to express. That's what connects people.

I've always said that the games industry is full of people who envy hollywood and film's ability to reach a mass audience. YOU ARE A VIDEO GAME COMPANY. I would hope that if you say you want your game to go on a shelf, what's on that shelf is not Lord of the Ring, or Star Wars, or Harry Potter, but rather Civilization, Doom, Mario 3, Starcraft, Quake, Deus Ex, Metal Slug, Day of the Tentacle, Sim City, R-Type, Vanquish. You know. AMAZING GAMES. In fact that whole shelf statement is extraordinarily ignorant, but it's just one dude at Bungie, so whatever.

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Because it betrays your intentions. If you are making a game with the purpose of it being a huge cultural phenomenon, then your motives are not pure and you aren't making the game with the desire of merely making a good game. It's like the girl who moves to Hollywood to take up acting in order to become famous, versus the girl who loves acting, but happens to become famous because she's really good and dedicated.

Bull crap. Plenty of people aim to be big and end up becoming big. There are enough great blockbuster movies to prove that intending to be a big deal does not interfere with their desire to make a good movie. Great directors and writers want to change the world, they want to change the industry, that's a common goal. It's the way they want to change it that matters, and from everything they've said they want to make a huge cultural phenomenon because that's how good of a game they want to make!

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Indeed.

For instance I really like ~~Fern Gully HD~~ Avatar. The graphics are so well done that even to this day I have to remind myself that the Navi, even in close ups, aren't actors in makeup or something. I really enjoyed the story and story telling as well. And, as you say, Avatar was a movie that set out to be a big deal and shake up movie making, and it succeeded.

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This a game. It's not a vehicle for an actor, director, singer or writer. It's a vehicle for us, the player. The goal should be to elevate the player to higher heights, not to create a cultural icon.

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This a game. It's not a vehicle for an actor, director, singer or writer. It's a vehicle for us, the player. The goal should be to elevate the player to higher heights, not to create a cultural icon.

That doesn't affect the argument at all, movies are about at minimum entertaining the viewer, that doesn't change any of the arguments I've made.

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Because it betrays your intentions. If you are making a game with the purpose of it being a huge cultural phenomenon, then your motives are not pure and you aren't making the game with the desire of merely making a good game. It's like the girl who moves to Hollywood to take up acting in order to become famous, versus the girl who loves acting, but happens to become famous because she's really good and dedicated.

I think people are picking up on that, although not as strongly in such a... well not in the same way you are.

Such a statement just reeks of insecurity.

It seemed more like arrogance or cockiness to me, basically the opposite of insecurity. Come to think of it, you see that in a lot of the things game companies say and do, even when they're very different statements or very different groups of people....

What kind of cultural impact did Marathon or Myth make? None. But does that diminish what good games they are, or all the fun all the Bungie fans since then have had playing those games?
See, most good art is good because the artists are passionate about their art or the ideas they wish to express. That's what connects people.

It's one of the things that connects people. There are a lot of others and I don't think it's wise to ignore them. To be honest, I don't know kind of connection you're referring to, so it would be helpful to clear that up if you're going to respond. Anyway I'm more with Kermit and rhubarb, it's kind of nebulous regardless.

I've always said that the games industry is full of people who envy hollywood and film's ability to reach a mass audience. YOU ARE A VIDEO GAME COMPANY. I would hope that if you say you want your game to go on a shelf, what's on that shelf is not Lord of the Ring, or Star Wars, or Harry Potter, but rather Civilization, Doom, Mario 3, Starcraft, Quake, Deus Ex, Metal Slug, Day of the Tentacle, Sim City, R-Type, Vanquish. You know. AMAZING GAMES. In fact that whole shelf statement is extraordinarily ignorant, but it's just one dude at Bungie, so whatever.

The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter were books for years before they were movies, and going by your logic (here and elsewhere) the movies were successful because they were written like the books, so it sounds to me like he means they're aiming to have a large, high-quality story.

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And I think it shows Cody is right.

"Creating a life that reflects your values and satisfies your soul is a rare achievement. In a culture that relentlessly promotes avarice and excess as the good life, a person happy doing his own work is usually considered an eccentric, if not a subversive. Ambition is only understood if it’s to rise to the top of some imaginary ladder of success. Someone who takes an undemanding job because it affords him the time to pursue other interests and activities is considered a flake. A person who abandons a career in order to stay home and raise children is considered not to be living up to his potential — as if a job title and salary are the sole measure of human worth.

You’ll be told in a hundred ways, some subtle and some not, to keep climbing, and never be satisfied with where you are, who you are, and what you’re doing. There are a million ways to sell yourself out, and I guarantee you’ll hear about them.

To invent your own life’s meaning is not easy, but it’s still allowed, and I think you’ll be happier for the trouble.”

-Bill Watterson

EDIT: I also just really wanted to share it with people I generally enjoy.

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Excellent post MacPhisto. Thanks for posting that.

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I agree. We all have different desires in this world. Some of us consider having an awesome family living up to our potential, and some of us have other goals, which we consider bigger, such as accomplishing some great task like Bungie is striving to do.

I contemplated reducing my goals many times financially, just getting a wife, having kids, and just living. But, for some of us, there's a large part that really would like to contribute more to this world. A huge fire that makes us want to improve ourselves endlessly -- and it's satisfying. There are a lot of pitfalls, cliffs, terrible days, etc. in the process of climbing those mountains, but my god, does it feel amazing when you've climbed one. You look into the distance, feeling great, and in front you see a bigger mountain, ready to be climbed.

For me, that makes life more enjoyable. And again for a lot of others, that's not the case. But, I can do that on top of "letting go" and playing with kids -- just as a lot of people are doing today, especially at Bungie.

I don't know where I'm going with this. Awesome post!

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I think I'll go curl up in a corner and read some Calvin and Hobbes now.

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And I think it shows Cody is right.

"Creating a life that reflects your values and satisfies your soul is a rare achievement. In a culture that relentlessly promotes avarice and excess as the good life, a person happy doing his own work is usually considered an eccentric, if not a subversive. Ambition is only understood if it’s to rise to the top of some imaginary ladder of success. Someone who takes an undemanding job because it affords him the time to pursue other interests and activities is considered a flake. A person who abandons a career in order to stay home and raise children is considered not to be living up to his potential — as if a job title and salary are the sole measure of human worth.

You’ll be told in a hundred ways, some subtle and some not, to keep climbing, and never be satisfied with where you are, who you are, and what you’re doing. There are a million ways to sell yourself out, and I guarantee you’ll hear about them.

To invent your own life’s meaning is not easy, but it’s still allowed, and I think you’ll be happier for the trouble.”

-Bill Watterson

EDIT: I also just really wanted to share it with people I generally enjoy.

"You’ll be told in a hundred ways, some subtle and some not, to keep climbing, and never be satisfied with where you are, who you are, and what you’re doing. There are a million ways to sell yourself out, and I guarantee you’ll hear about them".

I got into trouble at work for refusing to live the way "they wanted me to live" and was not considered for promotion. I realized that the company was the one that lost out when I was passed up from promotion. It may sound arrogant for me to say this but I'm going to anyway. I was smarter, more resourceful, and more hardworking then my co-workers. They spent more time polishing their own mirrors, watching their egotistical backs and conforming to the bullshit and nothing was accomplished.

Watterson was a rare person indeed.

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I got into trouble at work for refusing to live the way "they wanted me to live" and was not considered for promotion.

Do you mean they wanted you to work longer hours i.e. devote more of your life to work?

Isn't it fascinating that while our productivity greatly increased, through the use of technique and technology, instead of choosing to work less and have more free time, we instead chose to work MORE? It's perhaps the greatest cultural mistake we have ever made! I mean, if back in the day it took you 8 hours to do some task, but now it takes 2, then why are we not working 2 hour days with the same pay? Instead we work 8 hours and do 4 tasks.

I think it's pretty clear that this is the result of cultural narcissism, in that working more results in more money which can be used to buy more shit which indicates status. As the quote shows, perhaps we should question these metrics as an indicator of worth.

See why it's so bad that things like level and loot now indicate success in games? It's invading our leisure time, something which should be immune to status seeking behavior since it's ostensibly time to do what interests you personally, only because the activity is enjoyable for its own sake.

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Man. It's really hard to talk about games when we don't even have our fundamentals in order. Or, in other words, it takes a long time to be good anything (talking, thinking, whatever you want to plug in there really).

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I got into trouble at work for refusing to live the way "they wanted me to live" and was not considered for promotion.

Do you mean they wanted you to work longer hours i.e. devote more of your life to work?

No, it wasn't that, I was already working more hours then my co-workers but I chose to do so. I truly enjoyed the work I did and I was like a kid in a candy store. I was told that I wasn't working up to my immediate supervisors estimation of my potential. The problem I had with this was the potential he spoke of didn't serve his career goals. He told me, "you are here to further my career and I was supposed to make him look good". This is the wrong thing to say to me. I will never work to further someone else's career. I seek no status. I expect to receive fair compensation for my work, and making lots of money has never been a goal of mine. There was about a year of bullshit I had to take from this lazy asshole, but he ended up crapping in his own bead and he was removed from my department. Oh, and his manager got into a crap load of trouble too during this and was fired.

Isn't it fascinating that while our productivity greatly increased, through the use of technique and technology, instead of choosing to work less and have more free time, we instead chose to work MORE? It's perhaps the greatest cultural mistake we have ever made! I mean, if back in the day it took you 8 hours to do some task, but now it takes 2, then why are we not working 2 hour days with the same pay? Instead we work 8 hours and do 4 tasks.

The problem with advancing technology is that it replaces people and more people end up out of work. America has become a service economy and our manufacturing strength has been systematically shipped overseas. I shudder to think what this country will look like in ten years!

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I got into trouble at work for refusing to live the way "they wanted me to live" and was not considered for promotion.

Do you mean they wanted you to work longer hours i.e. devote more of your life to work?

Isn't it fascinating that while our productivity greatly increased, through the use of technique and technology, instead of choosing to work less and have more free time, we instead chose to work MORE? It's perhaps the greatest cultural mistake we have ever made! I mean, if back in the day it took you 8 hours to do some task, but now it takes 2, then why are we not working 2 hour days with the same pay? Instead we work 8 hours and do 4 tasks.

I think it's pretty clear that this is the result of cultural narcissism, in that working more results in more money which can be used to buy more shit which indicates status. As the quote shows, perhaps we should question these metrics as an indicator of worth.

See why it's so bad that things like level and loot now indicate success in games? It's invading our leisure time, something which should be immune to status seeking behavior since it's ostensibly time to do what interests you personally, only because the activity is enjoyable for its own sake.

or, you know, inflation, greed, wanting to give their families and themselves the best they can...

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"The Beatles caught lightning in a bottle 20+ times!"

That's one bit of lightning I never quite got. Had I been alive then, I might've just been biding my time for Led Zeppelin to show up.

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I don't like +1 for some reason. I think it's because I'm a (self described? :p) highly intellectual (yeah sure! :p), fairly competent (Uh huh :p) computer people (grammar error intended :p) and I expect all of you to be too. And what do us (we's? :p) highly intellectual, fairly competent computer peoples use to add one to a value. We use ++ (one + is, according to a highly placed source among a family of mathematicians, the one incorrect way) of course. It's very nearly a sin against god, nature, and the compiler to use +1. SO WHY ARE YOU PEOPLESES USING IT TO LIKE POSTS???

So I ask of you,: Stop… Eh… Halt? return 0;? break? endl? goto: end? sigterm? control+c? Command+Option+Escape? Etc…

Thanks!

unSincerely, Me.

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You would find a way to hold both titles within a span of minutes. I knew there was a reason why I liked you so much. LOL

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Well, for one, have you tried all their songs?

Some outright suck, some are brilliant, all are open for personal preferences, but I'm absolutely sure you'll find something you like.

Btw, I have a friend who vehemently refuses to believe that The Beatles are more famous than Cher. Yes, being around him is hilarious.

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Btw, I have a friend who vehemently refuses to believe that The Beatles are more famous than Cher. Yes, being around him is hilarious.

I had a friend who tried to say that Hannah Montana was bigger than the Beatles.

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Btw, I have a friend who vehemently refuses to believe that The Beatles are more famous than Cher. Yes, being around him is hilarious.

I had a friend who tried to say that Hannah Montana was bigger than the Beatles.

Had being the operative word in that sentence

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Had being the operative word in that sentence

Heh heh. Now she's swimming with the Yellow Submarines if you know what I mean.

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"The Beatles caught lightning in a bottle 20+ times!"

That's one bit of lightning I never quite got. Had I been alive then, I might've just been biding my time for Led Zeppelin to show up.

I was alive then and I never really was much of a Beatles fan. Led Zeppelin was more my kind of music. I wasn't much of Page and Plant kid but I greatly enjoyed, and still do, the drum work of John Bonham.

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"The Beatles caught lightning in a bottle 20+ times!"

That's one bit of lightning I never quite got. Had I been alive then, I might've just been biding my time for Led Zeppelin to show up.

I was alive then and I never really was much of a Beatles fan. Led Zeppelin was more my kind of music. I wasn't much of Page and Plant kid but I greatly enjoyed, and still do, the drum work of John Bonham.

John Bonham - proof that 4/4 is only as limiting as you want it to be. Ringo Starr - proof that... I dunno. "FUCK YOU GOT MINE?" lol

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Halo was lightning captured in a bottle sure, but you can't just make a another bottle and expect lightning already to be in it.

This is like saying you want to make a viral video. You can't. Just make good videos and maybe if you're lucky one will get watched by more than 10 people.

Are you maybe just eye-rolled out after the Batman announcement?

I've got several different thoughts on this. Aiming for the moon is only way to get there. These enterprises are huge, and you have to, on some level, believe (and get a small army to believe) that you are making something that is truly fantastic in order to create something truly fantastic.

On the other hand, you cannot control the zeitgeist. You cannot ensure that something is a phenomenon. Bungie was lucky with Halo. They could not have foreseen the success of the Xbox. They could not have imagined people outside of dorms having LAN parties. They expanded on that success with online multiplayer. No one could have foreseen online multiplayer becoming what it has become.

Or could they? There have always been visionaries who have a knack for knowing what people want before the people do. Steve Jobs comes to mind. Jason Jones comes across as someone who may have that knack. We shall see.

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Must say i feel like Jason Jones may just be like Steve Jobs in some sense. This may be why his ninja edits for the early halo and different design choice made the game a great game.

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... that wake me up from the internet-daze and make me realize my brain is picking apart some guy's random statement that we may or may not have interpreted right, and am now debating with other people what this other guy meant and the merits of those meanings...

And I just think 'what am I doing with my life', hah?

(I'm all for people wanting to capture lightning in a bottle -because lightning in a bottle is cool-looking- and totally understand why someone on the public side of Bungie would want to advertise Destiny as a game made by people who want it to be epic. Because if you don't want a game about superheros fighting aliens across a solar system in an epic war to be epic, then why would you make that game? And that's all he could be saying- is that it's going to be big in scope and epic in content, similar to those other titles he mentioned. He never actually says 'cultural impact' in that interview.)

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... that wake me up from the internet-daze and make me realize my brain is picking apart some guy's random statement that we may or may not have interpreted right, and am now debating with other people what this other guy meant and the merits of those meanings...

And I just think 'what am I doing with my life', hah?

(I'm all for people wanting to capture lightning in a bottle -because lightning in a bottle is cool-looking- and totally understand why someone on the public side of Bungie would want to advertise Destiny as a game made by people who want it to be epic. Because if you don't want a game about superheros fighting aliens across a solar system in an epic war to be epic, then why would you make that game? And that's all he could be saying- is that it's going to be big in scope and epic in content, similar to those other titles he mentioned. He never actually says 'cultural impact' in that interview.)

I think you have good points and you're right about all of this... except he did say "We like to tell big stories and we want people to put the Destiny universe on the same shelf they put Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter or Star Wars"; saying "on the same shelf" could mean a lot of things, including cultural impact.

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I think you have good points and you're right about all of this... except he did say "We like to tell big stories and we want people to put the Destiny universe on the same shelf they put Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter or Star Wars"; saying "on the same shelf" could mean a lot of things, including cultural impact.

Right. Could being the key word.

Plus, is it that important even if he did mean that way?

He's putting forth their ambitions, their dreams, not necessarily their method and inspiration. I really doubt every designer, artist, and engineer at Bungie are sitting there in front of their screens thinking "what way can I draw this ship or sculpt this enemy or balance this weapon to have the most cultural impact?" They're probably thinking "How can I do this to make Destiny better?" And later, before they fall asleep: "Man, I hope I was right, and I hope Destiny does well and has an impact, because it's a big game and we've put a lot at stake here for it to succeed." And I think anybody who makes their stories or entertainment public in a commercial sphere has hopes and worries in this way.

I would hate to have a forum dissect every comment I make during the day. There are so many intentions and interpretations dependent on so many important details! Even if you get it right, should every thing I say define me and everything I do absolutely? I say things that are half-right or all-wrong all the time, as I try to get closer to conveying the truth. I think everybody does this in varying degrees, even people in the public spotlight do.

Don't we all sometimes think "what the hell did I just say?" I don't know, I have that thought a LOT, even when I'm thinking really hard on what to say (or post). :)

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You managed to say what I've been trying to say expect without sounding overly defensive like I've been sounding :)

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I think you have good points and you're right about all of this... except he did say "We like to tell big stories and we want people to put the Destiny universe on the same shelf they put Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter or Star Wars"; saying "on the same shelf" could mean a lot of things, including cultural impact.

Right. Could being the key word.

Plus, is it that important even if he did mean that way?

He's putting forth their ambitions, their dreams, not necessarily their method and inspiration. I really doubt every designer, artist, and engineer at Bungie are sitting there in front of their screens thinking "what way can I draw this ship or sculpt this enemy or balance this weapon to have the most cultural impact?" They're probably thinking "How can I do this to make Destiny better?" And later, before they fall asleep: "Man, I hope I was right, and I hope Destiny does well and has an impact, because it's a big game and we've put a lot at stake here for it to succeed." And I think anybody who makes their stories or entertainment public in a commercial sphere has hopes and worries in this way.

Indeed. And why is it that some have decided that shooting for the stars is a bad thing?

I would hate to have a forum dissect every comment I make during the day. There are so many intentions and interpretations dependent on so many important details! Even if you get it right, should every thing I say define me and everything I do absolutely? I say things that are half-right or all-wrong all the time, as I try to get closer to conveying the truth. I think everybody does this in varying degrees, even people in the public spotlight do.

Don't we all sometimes think "what the hell did I just say?" I don't know, I have that thought a LOT, even when I'm thinking really hard on what to say (or post). :)

Your comparisons here aren't quite working for me. This wasn't Bungie's random thoughts throughout the day, it was an official, highly produced, highly thought about statement of their goals. This would be more similar to you making an official statement about what you hope Mayflower will be and people who like your work dissecting that statement looking for goods and bads.

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I think you have good points and you're right about all of this... except he did say "We like to tell big stories and we want people to put the Destiny universe on the same shelf they put Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter or Star Wars"; saying "on the same shelf" could mean a lot of things, including cultural impact.

Right. Could being the key word.

Yes, I wasn't saying that was it, I was just saying that despite not being said in so many words, that might have been the intent.

Plus, is it that important even if he did mean that way?

No, just like theorizing about Destiny or any game or solving puzzles related to them isn't that important.

He's putting forth their ambitions, their dreams, not necessarily their method and inspiration. I really doubt every designer, artist, and engineer at Bungie are sitting there in front of their screens thinking "what way can I draw this ship or sculpt this enemy or balance this weapon to have the most cultural impact?"

well, duh >_>

I would hate to have a forum dissect every comment I make during the day. There are so many intentions and interpretations dependent on so many important details! Even if you get it right, should every thing I say define me and everything I do absolutely? I say things that are half-right or all-wrong all the time, as I try to get closer to conveying the truth. I think everybody does this in varying degrees, even people in the public spotlight do.

Don't we all sometimes think "what the hell did I just say?" I don't know, I have that thought a LOT, even when I'm thinking really hard on what to say (or post). :)

Are you serious? Going over statements (among other things) with a fine-toothed comb is what we do, and they know that, and anyway most every company is careful about who says what to the public for these and other reasons.

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Halo was lightning captured in a bottle sure, but you can't just make another bottle and expect lightning already to be in it.

This is like saying you want to make a viral video. You can't. Just make good videos and maybe if you're lucky one will get watched by more than 10 people.

Are you maybe just eye-rolled out after the Batman announcement?

I've seen people who want to make a viral video make it. Because it was their job, and they were really good at it.

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Halo was lightning captured in a bottle sure, but you can't just make another bottle and expect lightning already to be in it.

Who said anything about expecting? Parsons' operative word was "want." I think this is the root of the whole negative tangent in this thread: confusing Bungie's desire for Destiny to be a big deal with them believing that it's a certainty.

This is like saying you want to make a viral video. You can't. Just make good videos and maybe if you're lucky one will get watched by more than 10 people.

So, you are saying that wanting a video to go viral doesn't make it happen. That is 100% true, of course. You also say the best approach is to just make it the best you can, and hope for the best. That, I also agree with. It's true of viral videos, games, and just about everything else.

The problem I'm seeing with this thread is that some posters seem to believe that Bungie has to make a distinct choice between these two approaches:

1. Try to create a cultural phenomenon.

2. Just buckle down and make a great game.

This is nonsense. What is actually happening is that they're buckling down and making a great game, WHILE simultaneously hoping that it becomes a big deal. I don't understand the idea that this is somehow a black-or-white choice between items 1 and 2. It is absolutely possible to work hard and do the best you can, WHILE hoping that something grand comes of it. And there's nothing wrong with it, either.

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Halo was lightning captured in a bottle sure, but you can't just make another bottle and expect lightning already to be in it.

Who said anything about expecting? Parsons' operative word was "want." I think this is the root of the whole negative tangent in this thread: confusing Bungie's desire for Destiny to be a big deal with them believing that it's a certainty.

This is like saying you want to make a viral video. You can't. Just make good videos and maybe if you're lucky one will get watched by more than 10 people.

So, you are saying that wanting a video to go viral doesn't make it happen. That is 100% true, of course. You also say the best approach is to just make it the best you can, and hope for the best. That, I also agree with. It's true of viral videos, games, and just about everything else.

The problem I'm seeing with this thread is that some posters seem to believe that Bungie has to make a distinct choice between these two approaches:

1. Try to create a cultural phenomenon.

2. Just buckle down and make a great game.

This is nonsense. What is actually happening is that they're buckling down and making a great game, WHILE simultaneously hoping that it becomes a big deal. I don't understand the idea that this is somehow a black-or-white choice between items 1 and 2. It is absolutely possible to work hard and do the best you can, WHILE hoping that something grand comes of it. And there's nothing wrong with it, either.

I think it comes from that ("cultural significance" or "cultural phenomenon" or "as successful/well-known/good as this and that and this etc.") and two assumptions. Firstly there's the assumption that they're not just hoping and wishing it turns out as a phenomenon, they're doing something to try to make it happen, which I think makes sense. Secondly there's the assumption that a "cultural phenomenon" like the ones that have been referred to are things that quote-unquote everyone likes, or at least can appreciate, which brings to mind focus groups and surveys and behaviorists and soccer moms.

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Like Starwars eh?

I don't doubt you Bungie, but this "question" keeps bouncing around in my head. Who knows what other studios have up their respective sleeves.

At the very least if such a thing is what they are aiming for its pretty much a guarantee we will see some Joseph Campbell/Akira Kurosawa Shenanigans.

To keep with the tone, I am hoping there will be at least a granule of originality in Destiny (slim as such a thing might be).

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"Unlikely to happen. Especially since you said up front that you WANT it to happen. You can't design a cultural touchstone -- you can only discover them."
- Ginnie Bowen

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/127185-Bungie-Wants-Destiny-to-Have-Star-Wars-Cultural-Impact

That's not going to happen for the simple reason that Bungie simply does not have good writers that actually understand and can tell stories with significant human experience or emotion. Sounds harsh but it's true.

"We like to tell big stories and we want people to put the Destiny universe on the same shelf they put Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter or Star Wars"

Big is not the reason these things were successful. There were many many films before Star Wars which were bigger in scope. Why was it Star Wars that caught on?

Hint: Star Wars was actually about something and tapped into the human condition in a significant way.

Someone the other day compared the writing in the Halo games to the writing of Dexter right now, and if you don't watch Dexter, then realize that the comparison is not flattering for Halo because the writing in Dexter is terrible.

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"Unlikely to happen. Especially since you said up front that you WANT it to happen. You can't design a cultural touchstone -- you can only discover them."
- Ginnie Bowen

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/127185-Bungie-Wants-Destiny-to-Have-Star-Wars-Cultural-Impact

That's not going to happen for the simple reason that Bungie simply does not have good writers that actually understand and can tell stories with significant human experience or emotion. Sounds harsh but it's true.

"We like to tell big stories and we want people to put the Destiny universe on the same shelf they put Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter or Star Wars"
. . .

My how charmingly absolute. Cody - I think you have been on the internet too long.

#NotSureIfTrolling

[image]

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That's not going to happen for the simple reason that Bungie simply does not have good writers that actually understand and can tell stories with significant human experience or emotion. Sounds harsh but it's true.

On the whole I'd actually agree. Well, you know, without your absolutism layered on top. Halo had a "good enough" story combined with excellent gameplay. That's why it was compelling and went on to become the series it is. It never did rise up to a "damn that story was good" level though. If anything what the old Halo's had going for them was their lack of story telling, allowing us to fill in the blanks with speculation. Doesn't mean I don't still enjoy the heck out of Assault on the Control Room, but it's not because of the storytelling that I still play it a decade later. If Halo shined anywhere story wise, it was that talented writers could use its framework to tell truly compelling stories. Halsey's Journal is at the "damn that was good" level for instance.

Looking at my game library I wouldn't put any of the Halo's anywhere near Alan Wake or Bioshock Infinite or Mass Effect 3. Not that I didn't enjoy the Prophet of Truth's conniving and the Arbiter's turn in Halo 2, or the back and forth between Halo 3's Didact and Librarian in the terminals, or the good individualized portrayals of the Noble Team spartans in Reach, but all those were more side pieces to the main stories.

And finally, do note that Bungie is now saying that Destiny will be better because it will have a story that has been planned in advance instead of being made up as needed on a game by game basis as Halo's supposedly was. We'll see I guess. I hope Destiny does indeed take the story to the next level.

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"We like to tell big stories and we want people to put the Destiny universe on the same shelf they put Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter or Star Wars"

Big is not the reason these things were successful. There were many many films before Star Wars which were bigger in scope. Why was it Star Wars that caught on?

Hint: Star Wars was actually about something and tapped into the human condition in a significant way.

Someone the other day compared the writing in the Halo games to the writing of Dexter right now, and if you don't watch Dexter, then realize that the comparison is not flattering for Halo because the writing in Dexter is terrible.

I'm not going to pass judgement on the writers at Bungie, but I think you're actually making a fairly strong argument against your own position. One of the reasons Star Wars is popular is because it is a modern incorporation of the heroes journey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth for more info on this, you can even scroll down and check out the star wars section!)

So far as tapping into the human condition in a significant way, part of the reason Halo is popular is because it allows the player to embody the hero archetype. Essentially the entire trilogy revolves around the idea that you (represented in game as master chief) are going to be the savior of humanity. A desire to be the hero is something that certainly exists in the human condition and I'd say that Halo's continued success speaks to its ability to engage people. Without the hero porn as I like to call it, Halo is just another game about shooting aliens, of which there have been plenty of before and since (spoiler alert: shooting aliens actually taps into part of the human condition as well!)

All that being said, I think the kind of writing that you're referring to is the dialogue driven interpersonal relationship type of writing. That's cool too, but its not what Halo is about, or what Halo tries to be.

Destiny? TBD.

Edit: Incidentally enough, I agree with you that you can't set out to create a cultural phenomenon, it can only happen organically. There's a big difference between successful or popular and truly iconic in the same way Star Wars or Star Trek are. I only disagree with the assertion that Halo does not tap into something in the human condition in a significant way.

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I'm not going to pass judgement on the writers at Bungie, but I think you're actually making a fairly strong argument against your own position. One of the reasons Star Wars is popular is because it is a modern incorporation of the heroes journey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth for more info on this, you can even scroll down and check out the star wars section!)

So far as tapping into the human condition in a significant way, part of the reason Halo is popular is because it allows the player to embody the hero archetype. Essentially the entire trilogy revolves around the idea that you (represented in game as master chief) are going to be the savior of humanity. A desire to be the hero is something that certainly exists in the human condition and I'd say that Halo's continued success speaks to its ability to engage people. Without the hero porn as I like to call it, Halo is just another game about shooting aliens, of which there have been plenty of before and since (spoiler alert: shooting aliens actually taps into part of the human condition as well!)

I'm sorry, but did nobody read this article that I liked here before? I'll link it again. Read it this time, then apply it to what I just quoted from your post.

http://criminalcrackdown.blogspot.com/2011/03/trouble-with-being-batman.html

Watching and playing are very two different things when it comes to storytelling.

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I'm sorry, but did nobody read this article that I liked here before? I'll link it again. Read it this time, then apply it to what I just quoted from your post.

http://criminalcrackdown.blogspot.com/2011/03/trouble-with-being-batman.html

Watching and playing are very two different things when it comes to storytelling.

Yep, that's certainly an opinion.

And yep, I've met tons of people who play games in just the way that article says we can't.

::shrug::

You've got your beliefs, I've got mine.

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I'm sorry, but did nobody read this article that I liked here before? I'll link it again. Read it this time, then apply it to what I just quoted from your post.

http://criminalcrackdown.blogspot.com/2011/03/trouble-with-being-batman.html

Watching and playing are very two different things when it comes to storytelling.

Yep, that's certainly an opinion.

And yep, I've met tons of people who play games in just the way that article says we can't.

I doubt it. I'd like to talk to one of those people. If you are one, reply below with an example of how you do this. Thanks!

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And yep, I've met tons of people who play games in just the way that article says we can't.

I doubt it. I'd like to talk to one of those people. If you are one, reply below with an example of how you do this. Thanks!

I'm one of those people. But I don't want to talk to you about it because you are self-righteous, close minded and you will shit on anyone's opinion that doesn't elevate your own views.

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And yep, I've met tons of people who play games in just the way that article says we can't.

I doubt it. I'd like to talk to one of those people. If you are one, reply below with an example of how you do this. Thanks!

I'm one of those people. But I don't want to talk to you about it because you are self-righteous, close minded and you will shit on anyone's opinion that doesn't elevate your own views.

And how is you withholding your argument going to help me change my mind? I want to be surrounded with opposing views - I'll either change my mind, or strengthen my own position. Have the intellectual curiosity and fortitude to engage in a discussion here.

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And yep, I've met tons of people who play games in just the way that article says we can't.

I doubt it. I'd like to talk to one of those people. If you are one, reply below with an example of how you do this. Thanks!

I'm one of those people. But I don't want to talk to you about it because you are self-righteous, close minded and you will shit on anyone's opinion that doesn't elevate your own views.

And how is you withholding your argument going to help me change my mind? I want to be surrounded with opposing views - I'll either change my mind, or strengthen my own position. Have the intellectual curiosity and fortitude to engage in a discussion here.

Because I don't care if you change our mind. What you will do is beat people over the head with your intellectual curiosity and fortitude, and the debate never ends until people either submit or they get tired of it and move on.

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And yep, I've met tons of people who play games in just the way that article says we can't.

I doubt it. I'd like to talk to one of those people. If you are one, reply below with an example of how you do this. Thanks!

I'm one of those people. But I don't want to talk to you about it because you are self-righteous, close minded and you will shit on anyone's opinion that doesn't elevate your own views.

And how is you withholding your argument going to help me change my mind? I want to be surrounded with opposing views - I'll either change my mind, or strengthen my own position. Have the intellectual curiosity and fortitude to engage in a discussion here.

Because I don't care if you change our mind. What you will do is beat people over the head with your intellectual curiosity and fortitude, and the debate never ends until people either submit or they get tired of it and move on.

I've never wanted a "Like" button on the forum so much as now.

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I've never wanted a "Like" button on the forum so much as now.

When I read Cody's reply to Wu, this was the expression on my face!

[image]

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And yep, I've met tons of people who play games in just the way that article says we can't.

I doubt it. I'd like to talk to one of those people. If you are one, reply below with an example of how you do this. Thanks!

I'm one of those people. But I don't want to talk to you about it because you are self-righteous, close minded and you will shit on anyone's opinion that doesn't elevate your own views.

And how is you withholding your argument going to help me change my mind? I want to be surrounded with opposing views - I'll either change my mind, or strengthen my own position. Have the intellectual curiosity and fortitude to engage in a discussion here.

Because I don't care if you change our mind. What you will do is beat people over the head with your intellectual curiosity and fortitude, and the debate never ends until people either submit or they get tired of it and move on.

Lol. You're just like the psychic who claims he can read minds, but says "Not today, conditions aren't right".

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And yep, I've met tons of people who play games in just the way that article says we can't.

I doubt it. I'd like to talk to one of those people. If you are one, reply below with an example of how you do this. Thanks!

I'm one of those people. But I don't want to talk to you about it because you are self-righteous, close minded and you will shit on anyone's opinion that doesn't elevate your own views.

And how is you withholding your argument going to help me change my mind? I want to be surrounded with opposing views - I'll either change my mind, or strengthen my own position. Have the intellectual curiosity and fortitude to engage in a discussion here.

Because I don't care if you change our mind. What you will do is beat people over the head with your intellectual curiosity and fortitude, and the debate never ends until people either submit or they get tired of it and move on.

Lol. You're just like the psychic who claims he can read minds, but says "Not today, conditions aren't right".

Cody - enough. Learn when to back off. Now would be a good time.

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And yep, I've met tons of people who play games in just the way that article says we can't.

I doubt it. I'd like to talk to one of those people. If you are one, reply below with an example of how you do this. Thanks!

I'm one of those people. But I don't want to talk to you about it because you are self-righteous, close minded and you will shit on anyone's opinion that doesn't elevate your own views.

And how is you withholding your argument going to help me change my mind? I want to be surrounded with opposing views - I'll either change my mind, or strengthen my own position. Have the intellectual curiosity and fortitude to engage in a discussion here.

Because I don't care if you change our mind. What you will do is beat people over the head with your intellectual curiosity and fortitude, and the debate never ends until people either submit or they get tired of it and move on.

Lol. You're just like the psychic who claims he can read minds, but says "Not today, conditions aren't right".

Cody - enough. Learn when to back off. Now would be a good time.

Lame. Would have been a good discussion.

Next time Gadget. Next time.

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And yep, I've met tons of people who play games in just the way that article says we can't.

I doubt it. I'd like to talk to one of those people. If you are one, reply below with an example of how you do this. Thanks!

I'm one of those people. But I don't want to talk to you about it because you are self-righteous, close minded and you will shit on anyone's opinion that doesn't elevate your own views.

And how is you withholding your argument going to help me change my mind? I want to be surrounded with opposing views - I'll either change my mind, or strengthen my own position. Have the intellectual curiosity and fortitude to engage in a discussion here.

Because I don't care if you change our mind. What you will do is beat people over the head with your intellectual curiosity and fortitude, and the debate never ends until people either submit or they get tired of it and move on.

I think you're mostly right, but if you don't care and it won't do anything, why did you reply to him?

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And yep, I've met tons of people who play games in just the way that article says we can't.

I doubt it. I'd like to talk to one of those people. If you are one, reply below with an example of how you do this. Thanks!

I'm one of those people. But I don't want to talk to you about it because you are self-righteous, close minded and you will shit on anyone's opinion that doesn't elevate your own views.

And how is you withholding your argument going to help me change my mind? I want to be surrounded with opposing views - I'll either change my mind, or strengthen my own position. Have the intellectual curiosity and fortitude to engage in a discussion here.

Because I don't care if you change our mind. What you will do is beat people over the head with your intellectual curiosity and fortitude, and the debate never ends until people either submit or they get tired of it and move on.

I think you're mostly right, but if you don't care and it won't do anything, why did you reply to him?

I have been advised by my internet lawyer to discourage people from continuing this subthread.

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The article you... reminded us about... is fairly decent, but you're acting like its a defenitive discussion ender when it isn't. It only has one solid claim of what the author says a video game can't do (create longing) and it doesn't even attempt to back that claim up. I agree with the author that video games should leverage their interactivity to tell their stories, but I don't think he, or you Cody by pointing us to it over and over, have come close to proving that games can't evoke as wide a range of emotions as a movie. In the end the article is, as Claude said, an opinion piece, and nothing more.

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Someone the other day compared the writing in the Halo games to the writing of Dexter right now, and if you don't watch Dexter, then realize that the comparison is not flattering for Halo because the writing in Dexter is terrible.

Unfortunately, I'd have to agree with this statement (despite having not seen any of season eight yet - so no spoilers!), especially after the fifth season. As a rather large Dexter fan, it cuts deep. Deep, I tells ya'.

Yeah, I went there.

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Someone the other day compared the writing in the Halo games to the writing of Dexter right now, and if you don't watch Dexter, then realize that the comparison is not flattering for Halo because the writing in Dexter is terrible.

Unfortunately, I'd have to agree with this statement (despite having not seen any of season eight yet - so no spoilers!), especially after the fifth season. As a rather large Dexter fan, it cuts deep. Deep, I tells ya'.

Yeah, I went there.

"Bones posted?!?! Holy crap!!!"

~ Paddy...while on my bed.

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Wait, what? Not that I want to get into a breakdown right now, but H1 and H2's narratives, plots, and stories are actually very well written, especially considering the troubles that hit H2 during development and the changes in direction that the game and story went. All gameplay aside, those stories are actually very, very well done. You've even said so yourself many times and in very well written fashion at HBO. It's H3 where it all falls apart.

I know you're not a big fan of ODST, and that's a fun discussion on its own as far as story goes, but I'm only referring to the main trilogy.

So based on H1 and H2, and considering that they wanted H2 to be the end (it wasn't) and that Microsoft had them wrapped up for a few more Halo games, who knows what a fresh start, a new creative energy, and Jason Jones's ideas and direction might do for Destiny from a story and narrative based standpoint.

Edit: And with regard to the human condition, while Halo absolutely had some aspects of that, Destiny might lend itself much better to exploring and tapping into the human condition than Halo was able to, and really allow Bungie's writers to flourish.

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Wait, what? Not that I want to get into a breakdown right now, but H1 and H2's narratives, plots, and stories are actually very well written, especially considering the troubles that hit H2 during development and the changes in direction that the game and story went. All gameplay aside, those stories are actually very, very well done. You've even said so yourself many times and in very well written fashion at HBO. It's H3 where it all falls apart.

They are structured fine, and did the job they were supposed to do. In fact, Halo had a pretty good video game story. However, I would not say any of Bungie's games even came remotely close to the types of stories that shape our cultural collective, nor do they offer anything morally, intellectually, emotionally, or philosophically interesting.

Edit: And with regard to the human condition, while Halo absolutely had some aspects of that,

Only if you were 12 years old and thought action movies were real life.

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They are structured fine, and did the job they were supposed to do. In fact, Halo had a pretty good video game story. However, I would not say any of Bungie's games even came remotely close to the types of stories that shape our cultural collective, nor do they offer anything morally, intellectually, emotionally, or philosophically interesting.

H2 alone touches on xenophobia, genocide, war, pride, deception, morality, and philosophy. You're playing as one of two largely silent protagonists who are all about war and killing and survival. If not the Master Chief, the Arbiter absolutely grows as a character. Lies are unraveled, truths are revealed, and a game that focuses on placing the player in the role of two action heroes turns into a larger statement about what really matters in life, the lies and deceit that often begin and fuel war and genocide, and an attempt to set aside differences to work for a common goal of survival and cohabitation if not mutual respect and understanding (even for the Flood, who only wants to survive and take over, but that's another story).

Only if you were 12 years old and thought action movies were real life.

See above. H3 is where it all unravels when you realize that basically not a lot of the foreshadowing from H2 mattered and that Truth wasn't some evil coniving genius, but just your general religious zealot who really just wanted to blast everything to oblivion.

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"Halo 2 was a beautiful mess. Plenty of filler missions, yet we get a character, the Arbiter, who quite ironically has the most humanity of any character in the trilogy. It's actually fitting the game ends with him; for we really are shown the true protagonist in the Halo trilogy. He has internal struggle, in total conflict with his long held beliefs. The end to the trilogy would be a glorious redemption for this character and his story arc. While some people bemoaned the whole 'great journey' thing, little hints were dropped that led me to believe there was more to it than that, and that Truth's ultimate plan was yet to be revealed."

I love the post as a whole and agree with nearly all of it, but just check out that above portion right there. You said it quite well. That human condition, even in an alien. And but one example of it from H2.

And yes, it's still small scale. That's what leads me to my larger point, which is that we have no idea what Bungie's writers have the ability to do now (especially considering H2's development and story got derailed, and considering that Halo was supposed to end at the end of H2). New universe, new motivation, years of experience, and potentially something really great on the horizon.

http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive31.pl?read=926360

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"Halo 2 was a beautiful mess. Plenty of filler missions, yet we get a character, the Arbiter, who quite ironically has the most humanity of any character in the trilogy. It's actually fitting the game ends with him; for we really are shown the true protagonist in the Halo trilogy. He has internal struggle, in total conflict with his long held beliefs. The end to the trilogy would be a glorious redemption for this character and his story arc. While some people bemoaned the whole 'great journey' thing, little hints were dropped that led me to believe there was more to it than that, and that Truth's ultimate plan was yet to be revealed."

I love the post as a whole and agree with nearly all of it, but just check out that above portion right there. You said it quite well. That human condition, even in an alien. And but one example of it from H2.

And yes, it's still small scale. That's what leads me to my larger point, which is that we have no idea what Bungie's writers have the ability to do now (especially considering H2's development and story got derailed, and considering that Halo was supposed to end at the end of H2). New universe, new motivation, years of experience, and potentially something really great on the horizon.

http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive31.pl?read=926360

I'm gonna use this one post that I randomly clicked on to launch into some rambling...

On Stories

I do not share your optimism regarding Bungie's ability to tell a good story. New universe? New motivation? Sure. But it's the same old writers with a pretty awful track record.

Let's start with Halo 3:

As you've noted, by referencing Cody's post, Halo 2's writing was pretty good.

Halo 3's writing was... sufficient. Bungie ended the main conflict of the trilogy well enough. The Human-Covenant war came to a reasonable and more-or-less logically sound conclusion. In that regard, it handled the "big" story elements just fine. There was nothing particularly wrong with that series of events. But that's it. It was a series of events. There's nothing insightful or compelling about how a war plays out. That's tantamount to watching a battle scene in a movie.

If Halo 3 handled the "big" story just fine, then its problem was that it squandered potential in the "small" stories. The character level. You know? Where most stories are able to thrash out interesting inter-personal conflicts that reflect upon humanity, philosophy, morality, and other things that end in -ity?

In that regard, Halo 3 dropped the ball entirely.

Halo 3's "big" storyline could have dovetailed nicely with a suitable character-driven story. There could have been meaningful and dare I say, dramatic, interaction between the Chief, the Arbiter, Truth and Gravemind. You know, the protagonists and antagonists? The characters in a story that are at the heart of the conflict and therefore the ones most capable of seeing development?

What did we get? Well for one, the Arbiter's story was shuffled off to the margins. More egregiously, we were treated to a colossal mishandling of Truth's potential as an antagonist with any real motivation. Gravemind never really moved beyond being an evil plant monster bent on consuming all... and the Chief? Well he fell in love.

Yup. All we really got was series of events, and a love story. A bad love story.

Thankfully, Halo 3 benefited of having the heft of the entire trilogy behind its back. It answered questions, and for that reason it was satisfying.

Post Halo 3

Things didn't get much better after Halo 3. ODST's story was uneventful. It was certainly not a "big" story. That was intentional. So what remained? What was the "small" story? Well there was none. A bunch of things happened and some stock characters reacted. Does anyone even remember what happened? Something about an Engineer. Whatever.

Let's be real. ODST's characters survived off of star-power. That game is lucky that I love Firefly and that I could just project that show's personalities onto its characters.

And then there was Reach. We all know how I feel about that game.

The Bungie games stopped after that. In my estimation, Halo stories got progressively worse. I feel like that is the general attitude held by most people anyway. Regardless of where people rank the games in the trilogy, the stories in ODST and Reach were beneath them.

So why don't I share your optimism? Well, if Bungie's most recent games had awful stories, why should I expect any different with the next?

Side Note: I'm curious as to where Halo 4 fits in. I haven't played it, nor do I plan to. I don't know anything about it. From what I hear, I think I might be better off that way. Maybe some day... If I find the time and can justify burning some money. If I do, I'll be sure to buy it used.

On "Big" Stories

It's concerning to hear that Bungie is focused on telling "big stories".

Given their handling of the Halo franchise, I don't think they understand how to tell a small story, let alone a big one.

I really don't believe they get what makes a good story tick.

Hint: It's not the scale. Bigger isn't better.

Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter are not big stories. They're small stories with big settings.

Lord of the Rings wasn't great because of its massive universe. Few people care that Gandalf is a Maiar of Valinor. What defines Gandalf is the bond he forms with the hobbits and his almost reckless faith in their abilities.

The heart of the Lord of the Rings trilogy is the fellowship. Yes, there is this massive overarching plot of good vs evil... but ultimately, the story is told through a handful of a experiences of a few key people.

Tolkien was an expert at giving the reader only a snapshot of the big picture. He told small stories in a big world.

The Halo trilogy, on the other hand, demonstrated that Bungie may know how to create a big world... but Halo 3 showed that they aren't exactly experts in handling the snapshots.

But I've digressed. Onto the idea behind this thread.

On Bottles and Lightning

So we've had some PR speak lately where Bungie basically describes itself as having talent that "rivals entertainment creators anywhere across any entertainment ever."

Basically they're amazing and everything that they're working on is gold. This attitude isn't anything new.

All of the ViDocs and interviews... every reveal or public statement... are all bathed in this "confidence".

There's always this feeling that every Bungie employee is just certain that what they're working on is going to be revolutionary. Every time I hear them speak, I feel like I'm listening to a sermon on the mount.

I don't know about you, but I can't think of any great creator, composer, artist or writer that ever thought his or her work was going to be fucking epic. In fact, the best ones I can think of were often dissatisfied with their works, even in their final form. A great creator is always looking at ways to improve and is often his or her own greatest critic.

I've never seen or even suspected Bungie's creative minds of being critical of their own work, or at the very least, reserved in their expectations about what they're creating.

Maybe they are behind closed doors, but it doesn't show. Did any of the writers stop after Halo 3 and think "So what story did we tell? What happened? What were the motivations behind our characters? What was compelling about this story?"

What about after ODST? Seriously. Ask those questions about ODST. Now do it with Reach. Sad.

And yet, as ODST and Reach came out, this same "Bungie is amazing" attitude was ever-present.

It's funny that Pete references Star Wars. I have to wonder if Bungie's writers have been suffering from the "Lucas-effect" that resulted in the debacle of the prequels.

A common explanation as to why Episodes 1-3 pale in comparison to Episodes 4-6 is that George Lucas was given greater creative control over the franchise in the new movies. He was questioned less and his ideas would go further without any push-back from fellow creative minds.

I wonder if Bungie writers get any push-back from... well, anywhere.

There's always been this undercurrent among our fandom that Bungie is some monolithic video game developer that is destined for greatness, and that the stewards of the ship can do no wrong.

"Trust them! They know what they're doing!"

I wonder if the "Bungie-can-do-no-wrong" attitude of community bled into the company itself. It seems that at some point after Halo 3, they started drinking the same Kool-Aid that Bungie fans have been brewing for years.

With Bungie's substantial growth over the past decade and a half, it wouldn't be surprising that a new generation of employees would have come to this "AAA developer" with starry eyes--all humbled by its great success in the market and reputation for being a studio of great esteem.

I mean, do they really think that everything they do is ground-breakingly awesome?

I really hope it's just PR-speak.

Rambling over.

***

All things considered, it'll probably be a fun game. I just don't expect it to be a narratively interesting one. Certainly not worthy of a place beside great films or novels on my bookshelf.

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Side Note: I'm curious as to where Halo 4 fits in. I haven't played it, nor do I plan to. I don't know anything about it. From what I hear, I think I might be better off that way. Maybe some day... If I find the time and can justify burning some money. If I do, I'll be sure to buy it used.

No spoilers here, but it does the big story well, and it TRIES to do the little story, but fails in a head slapping way.

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Side Note: I'm curious as to where Halo 4 fits in. I haven't played it, nor do I plan to. I don't know anything about it. From what I hear, I think I might be better off that way. Maybe some day... If I find the time and can justify burning some money. If I do, I'll be sure to buy it used.

No spoilers here, but it does the big story well, and it TRIES to do the little story, but fails in a head slapping way.

Another opinion: the big story makes no sense, mostly due to a complete lack of explanation and exposition of your enemies and their intentions, but the attempts to do the little story is well done and personal - it just doesn't resonate since you have no idea why you're doing what you doing.

But I also thought Halo 3 was the most emotional, balancing a conclusive third act of an epic with the most emotional and grounded versions of the characters, so you guys should probably just ignore me on your paths to enlightenment.

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Side Note: I'm curious as to where Halo 4 fits in. I haven't played it, nor do I plan to. I don't know anything about it. From what I hear, I think I might be better off that way. Maybe some day... If I find the time and can justify burning some money. If I do, I'll be sure to buy it used.

No spoilers here, but it does the big story well, and it TRIES to do the little story, but fails in a head slapping way.

Another opinion: the big story makes no sense, mostly due to a complete lack of explanation and exposition of your enemies and their intentions, but the attempts to do the little story is well done and personal - it just doesn't resonate since you have no idea why you're doing what you doing.

But I also thought Halo 3 was the most emotional, balancing a conclusive third act of an epic with the most emotional and grounded versions of the characters, so you guys should probably just ignore me on your paths to enlightenment.

Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoyed Halo 3. It was a satisfying conclusion. I had been speculating for years prior about how the Halo trilogy would end. The answers to the big questions were revealed with effective pacing and were enough to leave me contented.

The post above was more on how I thought it squandered potential for a more compelling "small" story. I can think of a few areas that could have used a little focus. ...and some areas that could have used less.

But, you seem to think they pulled it off? I'm curious. If you don't mind, could you elaborate on the parts of the story that you thought did this? Maybe I'm forgetting things that should have stuck out to me more.

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I know it's Levi's opinion, but I'd argue that H3 didn't really pull even some of the bigger parts off. Why did Regret jump the gun? What was Cortana's plan when she stayed behind on High Charity? What's H3 tell us? Doesn't matter, no reason/who cares.

For the record, I enjoy playing H3 for the most part, but a lot of the gameplay and level design just absolutely kills me. And the story itself only gets satisfying near the end of the game. I'd argue that the first 4-5 levels serve just about no purpose.

I also disagree that H4 does the big or small story points well. I've ripped that story to pieces enough over at HBO, no need to carry that over here. :P

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What was Cortana's plan when she stayed behind on High Charity?

They talk about that in the game: to help MC get on the Forerunner ship by delaying it's launch and to set off In Amber Clad to kill the flood (which of course she failed at).

Why did Regret jump the gun?

I can't remember if this is in one of the games... someone let me know if it wasn't, but I remember the reason he went was because he had located an artifact that he believed could guide them to the Ark, and he didn't even realize it was Earth he was going to.

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What was Cortana's plan when she stayed behind on High Charity?

They talk about that in the game: to help MC get on the Forerunner ship by delaying it's launch and to set off In Amber Clad to kill the flood (which of course she failed at).

Why did Regret jump the gun?

I can't remember if this is in one of the games... someone let me know if it wasn't, but I remember the reason he went was because he had located an artifact that he believed could guide them to the Ark, and he didn't even realize it was Earth he was going to.

Yes, this is explained in the messages Cortana intercepts while you're traveling in the underwater elevator in the level Regret.

It is also displayed by the depiction of his character and further scenes in the EU, like in Cole Protocol. He was always cunning and deceitful, trying to pull a fast one over Truth and gain the upper hand in their scheming tribunal.

As for Cortana's plan, I think she explains it plainly and directly in Halo 2. It is also elaborated further upon in Human Weakness in the Evolutions anthology.

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I know it's Levi's opinion, but I'd argue that H3 didn't really pull even some of the bigger parts off. Why did Regret jump the gun? What was Cortana's plan when she stayed behind on High Charity? What's H3 tell us? Doesn't matter, no reason/who cares.

For the record, I enjoy playing H3 for the most part, but a lot of the gameplay and level design just absolutely kills me. And the story itself only gets satisfying near the end of the game. I'd argue that the first 4-5 levels serve just about no purpose.

I also disagree that H4 does the big or small story points well. I've ripped that story to pieces enough over at HBO, no need to carry that over here. :P

Halo 4 gets a few thing right:

- Cortana's echo-y distress call on the opening cutscene with the in half Forward Unto Dawn. Ignoring that it's not the same ship that scene has the right tone… well until Cortana appears and starts displaying a virtual, holographic touch screen for her avatar to swipe around for no reason… Still the audio and visuals up till then are powerful and set a great mood, just one that is quickly tossed aside. :(

- The Librarian telling of Humanity's struggles with the Flood and Forerunner is pretty decent. It had a good mood and would be a highlight of the Halo/Human/Forerunner story if the rest of Halo 4 had supported it better. :(

- Cortana's scene after the scientists are digitalized is very good. It hits home the story point that she is dying and that she doesn't want to be replaced, even by herself. Too bad it's only a short bit of gameplay before we're reminded that the Didact is evil for no reason and has a plan that make no sense. :(

The thing is, I think those three scene are actually some of the best in all of Halo. Bungie was always… very standoffish with the greater fiction of their universe and never really connected with it, or outright attempted to rewrite it as in Reach. Halo 4, despite all its flaws, did attempt to, and in some cases very successfully did, connect to its surrounding fiction. It just dropped the ball in connecting the book Didact to the game Didact so badly that no good points could save it.

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- Cortana's echo-y distress call on the opening cutscene with the in half Forward Unto Dawn. Ignoring that it's not the same ship that scene has the right tone… well until Cortana appears and starts displaying a virtual, holographic touch screen for her avatar to swipe around for no reason… Still the audio and visuals up till then are powerful and set a great mood, just one that is quickly tossed aside. :(

It helps that it began with the classic musical motif that began all of the Halo trilogy titles. Sadly, the composer didn't wish to revist any of the other main themes except at the sight of a Halo for a brief moment, and the credits. I'm all for new music, but a Bond film needs its Secret Agent Man, Star Wars needs its fanfare, etc. Halo needed some of its classic themes. It's been four console games since we've had the Truth and Reconciliation Suite!

- The Librarian telling of Humanity's struggles with the Flood and Forerunner is pretty decent. It had a good mood and would be a highlight of the Halo/Human/Forerunner story if the rest of Halo 4 had supported it better. :(

I can give ya the next one, but I don't know about this one. It definitely LOOKED cool, but I don't think it explained the ancient human history very well. My girlfriend who has played the main Halo trilogy only had absolutely no idea what was going on. Hell, I could barely understand it. There were way too many new twists and concepts in a such a short amount of time. They should have spread it out throughout the game, along with exposition on the Didact and why he wasn't just a simple vampire wanting to murder Earth - which is all my girlfriend grasped as well. It was only in his after credits monologue that we had any interesting depth to his character and hint of understanding to his goals. But that's not a very good place for that to start happening, hah!

- Cortana's scene after the scientists are digitalized is very good. It hits home the story point that she is dying and that she doesn't want to be replaced, even by herself. Too bad it's only a short bit of gameplay before we're reminded that the Didact is evil for no reason and has a plan that make no sense. :(

The thing is, I think those three scene are actually some of the best in all of Halo. Bungie was always… very standoffish with the greater fiction of their universe and never really connected with it, or outright attempted to rewrite it as in Reach. Halo 4, despite all its flaws, did attempt to, and in some cases very successfully did, connect to its surrounding fiction. It just dropped the ball in connecting the book Didact to the game Didact so badly that no good points could save it.

Yep, for me at least - the Didact and the overall depiction of the Forerunners and the lack of explaining this new Covenant splinter cell... at all, really made the events of the game make no sense to me. The terminals needed to be an integral part of the game, not something I had to go watch on Waypoint later if I remembered it. I still don't think I've watched them all.

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I can give ya the next one, but I don't know about this one. It definitely LOOKED cool, but I don't think it explained the ancient human history very well. My girlfriend who has played the main Halo trilogy only had absolutely no idea what was going on. Hell, I could barely understand it. There were way too many new twists and concepts in a such a short amount of time. They should have spread it out throughout the game, along with exposition on the Didact and why he wasn't just a simple vampire wanting to murder Earth - which is all my girlfriend grasped as well. It was only in his after credits monologue that we had any interesting depth to his character and hint of understanding to his goals. But that's not a very good place for that to start happening, hah!

Heh. I only half remembered the scene as I was writing this part. I think, if you take the Halo 4 terminals as a whole, and combine them with the knowledge in the first two Forerunner books, you'll see that 343 was actually doing a really good job of expanding Halo's story. They managed to add in a new, interesting twist to Humanity's past that still fit with the already established Halo story. That's pretty cool.

If not for the Didact being evil for no real reason I think Halo 4 would have been looked on much more favorably. They had several ways out. This Didact could have been driven mad by his encounter with the Flood or torture at the hands of the Master Builder. Or this Didact could somehow know (and / or perhaps be obsessed with the idea) that the Flood / Precursor threat was still out there and stopping them was more important than his wife's plans for Humanity. Instead we got no hints that he was crazy, and no real hints about his motivation. He wanted an army… apparently… but we weren't even really told what he wanted on for!

Long story short, Halo 4 was almost the best Halo game ever but for a few major plot and character flubs, the lack of Halo music, and some really bad sound effects. (Warthog, I am looking at you especially!)

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Long story short, Halo 4 was almost the best Halo game ever but for a few major plot and character flubs, the lack of Halo music, and some really bad sound effects. (Warthog, I am looking at you especially!)

The poor warthog... I died a little bit inside when I first gunned it on Requiem.

Maybe it was just Requiem's atmosphere that made the engine cry. Gosh I hope it gets fixed.

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But, you seem to think they pulled it off? I'm curious. If you don't mind, could you elaborate on the parts of the story that you thought did this? Maybe I'm forgetting things that should have stuck out to me more.

For me, Halo 1 introduced the universe and gave us a nice self-contained story. Halo 2 built the universe into a deeper and engaging world with many new characters and motivations to side with or to oppose. It ended in a string of cliffhangers. The table was set. Halo 3 was about watching that table explode and the oppositions and allies meet in epic combat. I was looking for the Return of the King, not a whole new set of questions and expositions. I wanted the scope to be pushed and that feeling of back-against-the-wall fighting recaptured. And yet, besides Chief leaving Cortana behind on High Charity, Halo 3 had almost all the personal, emotional scenes that really affected me in the trilogy.

There are not necessarily surprising twists or turns in the story, but actions and subtle tells combined with perfectly suited art and audio direction that connected me directly to much more than what they might seem to appear to be in a simple script.

Examples:

-The introduction - building up both Cortana's and the UNSC's need for the Chief, as well as Sgt. Johnson's friendship. Chief has always been a force of nature for the UNSC and a symbol of hope for humanity, but I felt that much of those elements were lost in the romp through an empty Mombassa. But here with a squad tasked with finding and reviving the fallen Chief, and the group guarding him like he's a dying angel (with stirring music to match) - all of that really grounded me into Chief's vital role in a sacked Earth. He felt more like a super hero in Halo 2's early Earth levels, and the danger of the threat of invasion wasn't there as much as in the game's previews. Now it was finally here! "Reinforcements are on the spoke."

-The wounded soldiers astonished to see a Spartan alive in Crow's Nest. This was the kind of little stuff I loved in the Halo 2 E3 demo, but never seemed to translate to the final game. Instead we got a lot of David Cross and wisecrackers (which I still enjoyed in their own right). Now we were finally starting to see the importance of the Chief as a symbol as the world falls apart around him. Truth's transmission highlighted this again. "Does he always mention me?"

-The music and Lord Hood's voice and words will always stir me into battle at the end of Tsavo Highway. "Okay, I'm ready to defend Minas Tirith now."

-The atmosphere, the storm, the crater, the legion of Covenant, the crashing Longswords, and the loud booms of the Scarab and the AA gun will always make the Storm one of my favorite levels. The feeling of desperation has rarely been matched in another game for me. This was finally my chance to fight for Earth, alongside civilian workers no less, on a literal precipice at the end of the world. New and classic musical themes, especially the whole level revolving around "Brothers In Arms" recaptured that feeling of fighting alongside brave GI Joes that I had felt years ago on Halo. The cinematic at the end is just the cherry on top. I made weird, unmanly gasps when a ridiculous number of Longswords flew over my head, followed by three frigates unleashing their MAC cannons.

-The cinematic at the end of Floodgate has some of the most emotional and subtle bits that speak volumes to me. When Lord Hood asks if Chief trusts Cortana and he immediately answers "Sir, Yes, Sir." I had a shiver of goosebumps up my spine. That is probably one of the highlights from the entirety of Halo cinematics for me. Then seeing the Elites and UNSC trade weapons was a nice little scene that conveyed their union shortly and sweetly. And at the very end we see Lord Hood leaving Miranda and Chief behind. The red lighting of the Pelican troop bay really accentuates the somber mood and as the hatch closes we see Hood flinch a little. A sort of distrust and despair in what he's allowed them to do.

-Johnson's sadness at losing Miranda and being forced to activate the destruction of the galaxy. Especially when Chief reaches them and looks over at Johnson holding Miranda.

-The subtle reveals of Truth's knowledge of the Forerunners and what the rings really do (along with Contact Harvest) made me very happy because (while it is still highly interpretable) I felt that I had been right in my theory: Truth WOULD ascend to a "god", because he knew the Ark would lower the rest of the galaxy beneath him, leaving him a king with an army of fools with no one to match him. "But that secret dies with all the rest."

-Cortana's reunion with the Chief was VERY personal for me, and straddled that perfect line of friendship and maybe a hint of something more that I thought suited those two characters best.

-"Send me out with a bang." couple with the stirring violin and Chief's stoic looks... I couldn't enjoy the awesome Maw Run sequel the first few playthroughs because I was too somber from losing the un-loseable, my Johnson. The cinematography and music and Cortana's last line as Forward Unto Dawn attempts to escape is also very emotional for me. "Were it so easy" and "Wake me when you need me" continued to be great emotional farewells to these characters.

These scenes are mostly all centered on one or two short lines of dialogue or a few simple actions, and coupled with perfect scoring, cinematography, color, and lighting, they said so much more to me than if they added in a whole heap of dialogue explaining every little thing. Looking at his storyboards, this has much to do with Lee Wilson (and Marty O'Donnell and everyone else, of course). Coupled with the large-scale vehicle battles I wanted, the classic tunes revisited, and a brilliant and touching Forerunner story that revealed more about them while somehow still keeping them vague and mysterious, was all I ever wanted in a Halo game, especially the concluding Halo game (in many ways). The only thing I perhaps wanted a bit more of was exploring and defending an Earth city... which I just happened to get in Halo 3's expansion pack: ODST!

Of course, I also looked forward to Halo 3 with optimism, delight, and curiosity and I'm sure that colored my initial experiences. As I'm sure Cody's months of cynicism will color his experience with Destiny.

If you guys ever want to fall in love with Halo 3, play sometime with me and Padraig. Our excitement combined will infect you.

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I'm not quite as optimistic as you about Truth's end game, but no need to quibble over that when the greater point you made deserves to be emphasized. Halo 3 was a good game with some really good story points. And it and the other Bungie Halos, and unlike Halo 4, told a solid story with very few plot holes or strange character reversals, like Mr. Didact's. They're not the best video game stories ever told, but individually and especially when taken as a whole, they are very good.

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I'm not quite as optimistic as you about Truth's end game, but no need to quibble over that when the greater point you made deserves to be emphasized. Halo 3 was a good game with some really good story points. And it and the other Bungie Halos, and unlike Halo 4, told a solid story with very few plot holes or strange character reversals, like Mr. Didact's. They're not the best video game stories ever told, but individually and especially when taken as a whole, they are very good.

I definitely don't view the Halo stories in the same way as say a Hironobu Sakaguchi tale (the classic Final Fantasies). I judge stories usually by what they're meant to do. For Halo: make me feel like a badass saving the world when all hell is breaking loose, or at times, to make me curious and explorative in a mysterious world and culture. Halo 3 added in a perfect amount of touching, emotional connection, that especially worked because we had been with these characters for three games now and were saying goodbye.

I also don't just see Bungie's 'story' in the script - I see it in their art direction, audio, and gameplay. When Halo is at its best, it's when all those things, plus the story, are aligned to create that magic Halo experience. When I've finished shooting an alien in its face, and I look up at some human architecture and think "Wait a minute - I think this might mirror a Forerunner structure I've been in. Wow, That's a nice little nod to the story."

For their intents, I think Bungie usually tells great stories - but that's because those stories are only starting points inside the actual game, the rest is in our imagination, our observations, our speculation, and the choices we make when we ramp a Warthog onto a Scarab and go flying off on fire thinking 'this is so cool'.

Sometimes I think my one complaint with Bungie stories is also my greatest compliment: "I WANTED MORE, DAMNIT!"

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…that especially worked because we had been with these characters for three games now and were saying goodbye.

Indeed! When you rescue Cortana in Halo 3 the exchange IS the perfect combination of all the Chief / Cortana interactions up until that point. They referenced Halo 2 with the part about keeping promises. Then, my favorite part, they reference Halo 1 with: "Keep your head down, there's two of us in here now, remember." But they did it so amazingly well. Yes, it was a slow scene with quiet music, but with that line I was pumped to go back outside that room and kick the Gravemind's ass, more so than even when Rock Anthem for Saving The World would come up in Halo 1. It's because it was a call back that only people like us would get without having to be reminded. Because that line reminded me of all the times I did keep my head down and won the day, and all the times I didn't and had to start a section over. And because it meant both that this really was Halo again (proper Halo being the Chief shooting and Cortana advising) and because it meant I had a new, mostly unstated objective to keep Cortana safe and get us both out of the hell we were in. Usually me and the Chief are two different people, but right then I was the Master Chief, and that was awesome.

I hadn't thought of that seen in all these discussions about story we've been having recently. Thanks for reminding me about it! :)

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You've adequately reminded me of the great parts of Halo 3. Thank you for that.

I still can't shake certain qualms, but this reminded me as to why I was happy with the game regardless of whatever loose ends didn't get tied up as nicely as they could have.

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On Stories

I do not share your optimism regarding Bungie's ability to tell a good story. New universe? New motivation? Sure. But it's the same old writers with a pretty awful track record.

Ever read Contact Harvest? Evolutions? When Bungie employees are able to just write, some pretty awesome things happen.

Let's start with Halo 3:

As you've noted, by referencing Cody's post, Halo 2's writing was pretty good.

If Halo 3 handled the "big" story just fine, then its problem was that it squandered potential in the "small" stories. The character level. You know? Where most stories are able to thrash out interesting inter-personal conflicts that reflect upon humanity, philosophy, morality, and other things that end in -ity?

It absolutely blew the smaller stories, and didn't even handle a lot of the bigger ones very well.

In that regard, Halo 3 dropped the ball entirely.

What did we get? Well for one, the Arbiter's story was shuffled off to the margins. More egregiously, we were treated to a colossal mishandling of Truth's potential as an antagonist with any real motivation. Gravemind never really moved beyond being an evil plant monster bent on consuming all... and the Chief? Well he fell in love.

Yup. All we really got was series of events, and a love story. A bad love story.

Agreed. Though at least the series of events flowed logically, for the most part. And the love story, yeah. You get a tiny glimpse of it at the end of H2, and then it's this full on thing by H3 apparently. Word.

Things didn't get much better after Halo 3. ODST's story was uneventful. It was certainly not a "big" story. That was intentional. So what remained? What was the "small" story? Well there was none. A bunch of things happened and some stock characters reacted. Does anyone even remember what happened? Something about an Engineer. Whatever.

ODST discussions can go plenty of ways, but avoiding getting into conversations about it, it was a smaller team, a smaller project, and was fairly interesting.

Reach's story doesn't do much for me. The writing as a whole is just too easy to tear apart. Been there, done that.

So why don't I share your optimism? Well, if Bungie's most recent games had awful stories, why should I expect any different with the next?

I have the optimism because ODST and Reach, while I'm sure built with love and care, were "forced" titles by whatever deal was made with Microsoft. How long had Bungie known that their freedom wasn't secured yet? Destiny's been in development technically for how long? Did Bungie know that they weren't getting out of the Halo business before H3 launched? After? Burnt out?

I look at their record pre-ODST. While H3 had issues, it was the end of a trilogy that apparently was never planned to be a trilogy. I'm talking the record even before Halo. I'm talking Contact Harvest and other outside materials written directly by Bungie. There's a lot of potential for greatness with Destiny, and as you point out, plenty of potential for it to really not be all that great.

Side Note: I'm curious as to where Halo 4 fits in. I haven't played it, nor do I plan to. I don't know anything about it. From what I hear, I think I might be better off that way. Maybe some day... If I find the time and can justify burning some money. If I do, I'll be sure to buy it used.

All other biases aside, the story is quite terribly written and executed on the big and small levels. Characterization is awful. No point in hashing that out here, though. I've had plenty to say on that at HBO.

I really don't believe they get what makes a good story tick.

Hint: It's not the scale. Bigger isn't better.

Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter are not big stories. They're small stories with big settings.

Bungie actually did this quite well. When you consider that H1, H2, and H3 all take place within a relatively confined time period, they actually did pretty well. Cody's definitely pointed out a lot of areas where they haven't. It's not earth shatteringly great. At the same time, H1 and H2 are very, very well done when it comes to their stories. The ending is where it drops off.

And we both know that with ODST, many consider it the best story while many consider it the worst. It does many, many things.

Tolkien was an expert at giving the reader only a snapshot of the big picture. He told small stories in a big world.

Bungie's also great with the secrets. There's this whole universe out there and so much of it is unknown and in the distance, just out of reach. You know it's out there, you know something happened or is happening or will happen, but you may never get to see it. You can only imagine and speculate.

The Halo trilogy, on the other hand, demonstrated that Bungie may know how to create a big world... but Halo 3 showed that they aren't exactly experts in handling the snapshots.

Agree to an extent. They figured it out somewhere around level 5. And even then, some of the rest of the game dropped the ball, too (particularly with Gravemind).

I don't know about you, but I can't think of any great creator, composer, artist or writer that ever thought his or her work was going to be fucking epic. In fact, the best ones I can think of were often dissatisfied with their works, even in their final form. A great creator is always looking at ways to improve and is often his or her own greatest critic.

I think it's PR speak. Compare every Bungie interview and action to 343 Industries to get an idea of arrogance, double speak, utter misunderstanding for the fans or the works, etc. Granted, Bungie's been at it longer, but whatever. Compare it to anything EA does, too.

The goal is to get people excited. If you're excited, and you're selling a product, one can naturally assume that others will also be excited and want to be excited if they already aren't. Conversations like these start happening. Curiosity spikes. People want to get their hands on it. Sales occur. And who knows, maybe, just maybe, something really special happens and people can't get enough. More DLC. More story. A decade of investment.

I think we'll see the humble humility a bit later on. Bungie usually shows it near the end of production, usually right around or after release, and then again as they're building up to the sequel or next version (what with taking feedback into account and doing their best to react). Right now this is the energize-and-build-the-base-and-newcomers time.

Maybe they are behind closed doors, but it doesn't show. Did any of the writers stop after Halo 3 and think "So what story did we tell? What happened? What were the motivations behind our characters? What was compelling about this story?"

What about after ODST? Seriously. Ask those questions about ODST. Now do it with Reach. Sad.

And yet, as ODST and Reach came out, this same "Bungie is amazing" attitude was ever-present.

They've had a few years to look back on that all and fix it. Even some of the greatest authors had mediocre or subpar works, sometimes even after some of their greatest works come out. People experiment, people try new things, and other times maybe they have an idea and like the way it turned out, but others didn't. Who knows. Time will tell.

It's funny that Pete references Star Wars. I have to wonder if Bungie's writers have been suffering from the "Lucas-effect" that resulted in the debacle of the prequels.

A common explanation as to why Episodes 1-3 pale in comparison to Episodes 4-6 is that George Lucas was given greater creative control over the franchise in the new movies. He was questioned less and his ideas would go further without any push-back from fellow creative minds.

And many, many, many other reasons. I refer all inquiries to Plinkett. :P

I wonder if Bungie writers get any push-back from... well, anywhere.

There's always been this undercurrent among our fandom that Bungie is some monolithic video game developer that is destined for greatness, and that the stewards of the ship can do no wrong.

"Trust them! They know what they're doing!"

Bungie does have a history of at least making games that are fun to play and immersive in their own rights. When given total creative control, a lot of fun things have happened. I have a reason to trust them, while at the same time being guarded. Like maybe a year ago when concept art leaked for Destiny and people at HBO were like OMGTAKEMYMONEYRIGHTNOWOMGYESIAMINHEAVEN, all I could think was, "This is concept art. Leaked concept art. For a game that might suck royal. We know nothing, we've seen nothing."

I'm still in that guarded area for now. 95% of my questions about this game are, quite obviously, unanswered. Time will tell.

I really hope it's just PR-speak.

I think it is, but I wouldn't know. :P

All things considered, it'll probably be a fun game. I just don't expect it to be a narratively interesting one. Certainly not worthy of a place beside great films or novels on my bookshelf.

Yeah. Dream big, Bungie, but I don't know about the comparison to Star Wars. It is what it is. Maybe it'll be the biggest thing in gaming since... well, Call of Duty. Lawl.

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So I posted a reply and it got flagged as spam :(

Oh well.

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H2 alone touches on xenophobia, genocide, war, pride, deception, morality, and philosophy. You're playing as one of two largely silent protagonists who are all about war and killing and survival. If not the Master Chief, the Arbiter absolutely grows as a character. Lies are unraveled, truths are revealed, and a game that focuses on placing the player in the role of two action heroes turns into a larger statement about what really matters in life, the lies and deceit that often begin and fuel war and genocide, and an attempt to set aside differences to work for a common goal of survival and cohabitation if not mutual respect and understanding (even for the Flood, who only wants to survive and take over, but that's another story).

Did Halo do xenophobia better than Starman, Starship Troopers, or American History X?

Did Halo do genocide better than The Killing Fields, As We Forgive, or The Devil Came On Horseback?

Did Halo do War better than Full Metal Jacket, The Bridge on the River Kwai, or The Deer Hunter?

Did Halo do pride better than A face in the Crowd, Network, or Breaking Bad?

Did Halo do deception better than Usual Suspects, Godfather, or Some like it Hot?

Morality and Philosophy aren't that specific.

Let's get real. It might have touched on those topics, but you have to admit it says nothing substantial, nuanced, or insightful about any of what you just said. And if you think so, then watch any of what I listed; you'll realize what I'm saying here. The Halo story was a really good backdrop to a very fun game, but not anything of great worth when it isn't supporting the Halo universe. As are most video game stories, and as the SHOULD be.

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Did Halo do xenophobia better than Starman, Starship Troopers, or American History X?

Did Halo do genocide better than The Killing Fields, As We Forgive, or The Devil Came On Horseback?

Did Halo do War better than Full Metal Jacket, The Bridge on the River Kwai, or The Deer Hunter?

Did Halo do pride better than A face in the Crowd, Network, or Breaking Bad?

Did Halo do deception better than Usual Suspects, Godfather, or Some like it Hot?

Morality and Philosophy aren't that specific.

Let's get real. It might have touched on those topics, but you have to admit it says nothing substantial, nuanced, or insightful about any of what you just said. And if you think so, then watch any of what I listed; you'll realize what I'm saying here. The Halo story was a really good backdrop to a very fun game, but not anything of great worth when it isn't supporting the Halo universe. As are most video game stories, and as the SHOULD be.

Why are we comparing Halo to the (commonly held) pinnacles of media? Was anyone making the argument that Halo was one of the best pieces of media in history? I believe the argument was that Halo's story writing was good, not the best.

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Did Halo do xenophobia better than Starman, Starship Troopers, or American History X?

Did Halo do genocide better than The Killing Fields, As We Forgive, or The Devil Came On Horseback?

Did Halo do War better than Full Metal Jacket, The Bridge on the River Kwai, or The Deer Hunter?

Did Halo do pride better than A face in the Crowd, Network, or Breaking Bad?

Did Halo do deception better than Usual Suspects, Godfather, or Some like it Hot?

Morality and Philosophy aren't that specific.

Let's get real. It might have touched on those topics, but you have to admit it says nothing substantial, nuanced, or insightful about any of what you just said. And if you think so, then watch any of what I listed; you'll realize what I'm saying here. The Halo story was a really good backdrop to a very fun game, but not anything of great worth when it isn't supporting the Halo universe. As are most video game stories, and as the SHOULD be.

Why are we comparing Halo to the (commonly held) pinnacles of media? Was anyone making the argument that Halo was one of the best pieces of media in history? I believe the argument was that Halo's story writing was good, not the best.

Maybe because this is a thread about Bungie wanting Destiny to be taken seriously and comparing it to a film, when I don't believe they have the writing talent to achieve that goal?

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Maybe because this is a thread about Bungie wanting Destiny to be taken seriously and comparing it to a film, when I don't believe they have the writing talent to achieve that goal?

Right... but you jumped from arguing how Halo wasn't great at storytelling to (without bringing up Destiny) arguing that Halo isn't as good as some of the best movies/books ever made...

Halo has a better story than most action movies I have watched, and guess what, as Bungie is fond of saying Destiny will be an ACTION game, not a drama, thriller, or social commentary. Saying it'll fit on the shelf with great media does not mean that it has to be the greatest thing ever made I think that easily is taking their statement to the extreme of what they meant.

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Maybe because this is a thread about Bungie wanting Destiny to be taken seriously and comparing it to a film, when I don't believe they have the writing talent to achieve that goal?

Right... but you jumped from arguing how Halo wasn't great at storytelling to (without bringing up Destiny) arguing that Halo isn't as good as some of the best movies/books ever made...

Halo has a better story than most action movies I have watched, and guess what, as Bungie is fond of saying Destiny will be an ACTION game, not a drama, thriller, or social commentary. Saying it'll fit on the shelf with great media does not mean that it has to be the greatest thing ever made I think that easily is taking their statement to the extreme of what they meant.

Fair enough, but let me remind you that things like action movies aren't precluded from being insightful and interesting. Starship Troopers, Aliens, Book of Eli, etc.

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Fair enough, but let me remind you that things like action movies aren't precluded from being insightful and interesting. Starship Troopers, Aliens, Book of Eli, etc.

Yeah I definitely agree. I realized just now what my main beef with the arguments are in this thread. I personally took Bungie's argument about Destiny fitting on the shelf next to Star Wars and Lord of the Rings to be more about the way people are engrossed in them, not that they want to make something that is an amazing piece of media. Let me put it another way, Halo is a universe millions of people are engrossed in, I feel like they are saying that they want to make a universe with Destiny that people will want to come back to over an over again just like Star Wars fans are like with the extended universe.

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Halo has a better story than most action movies…

Good point.

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Did Halo do xenophobia better than Starman, Starship Troopers, or American History X?

No. But as you love to point out, comparing the video game and its attempt at storytelling to books/movies doesn't always work out. The question is, did it do those better than a lot of other games that have tried to touch on those themes? Absolutely. It's also done worse than other games.

Did Halo do genocide better than The Killing Fields, As We Forgive, or The Devil Came On Horseback?

Well, last I checked, Halo didn't actually happen. Those are some pretty powerful examples you just used, and Halo (I'd argue no video game) can even shake a stick at them. For argument's sake, see my above reply to the xenophobia bit.

Did Halo do War better than Full Metal Jacket, The Bridge on the River Kwai, or The Deer Hunter?

See above more.

Did Halo do pride better than A face in the Crowd, Network, or Breaking Bad?

Nope. Gravemind definitely makes things interesting. Arbiter has a character's journey. Master Chief, well, yeah, I got nothing. And if only H3 hadn't derailed everything the Prophets (or at least Truth) could have been. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

Did Halo do deception better than Usual Suspects, Godfather, or Some like it Hot?

See above more.

Morality and Philosophy aren't that specific.

Arbiter, but yeah, vague.

Let's get real. It might have touched on those topics, but you have to admit it says nothing substantial, nuanced, or insightful about any of what you just said. And if you think so, then watch any of what I listed; you'll realize what I'm saying here. The Halo story was a really good backdrop to a very fun game, but not anything of great worth when it isn't supporting the Halo universe. As are most video game stories, and as the SHOULD be.

I do agree with you that it doesn't actually say or do anything truly substantial. I replied as I was reading, and I like how we met in the same area at the end about video games as a whole and how they aren't that great at touching on many of these topics.

But to go right back on topic, that doesn't mean that Destiny can't be leaps and bounds ahead of where Halo or even every other video game is at when it comes to the character's journey, storytelling as a whole in video games and, yes, the human condition in multiple facets throughout apparently an ever changing and expanding world/solar system.

And why? Because in real life, the human condition and journey takes these past experiences of Bungie and its writers and potentially sees them grow and evolve. That doesn't mean that they have, and it doesn't mean that Destiny will be anything special at all (compared to any of the works you listed above, or even compared to Halo, Star Wars, or Zelda), but there is potential and, who knows, maybe we'll all be quite surprised.

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I do agree with you that it doesn't actually say or do anything truly substantial. I replied as I was reading, and I like how we met in the same area at the end about video games as a whole and how they aren't that great at touching on many of these topics.

Planescape: Torment

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See above. H3 is where it all unravels when you realize that basically not a lot of the foreshadowing from H2 mattered and that Truth wasn't some evil coniving genius, but just your general religious zealot who really just wanted to blast everything to oblivion.

Indeed. :(

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They are structured fine, and did the job they were supposed to do. In fact, Halo had a pretty good video game story. However, I would not say any of Bungie's games even came remotely close to the types of stories that shape our cultural collective, nor do they offer anything morally, intellectually, emotionally, or philosophically interesting.

Edit: And with regard to the human condition, while Halo absolutely had some aspects of that,

Only if you were 12 years old and thought action movies were real life.

These are points you can not hope to make. You appear to be speaking with certainty towards matters that are almost entirely subjective.

The "human condition" is, quite often, unique to the individual. It would be incredibly narrow, not to mention small minded, to assume that because an element of a story only speaks to your '12 year old' self that it would do the same for everyone else.

Different strokes and all that.

Halo stories tend to be very archetypal, grand space opera that follows many of the basic tenets of conventional storytelling. Boy meets girl, boy finds "ancient evil", boy destroys ancient evil, boy saves galaxy, et cetera.

These tropes are used extensively in modern (and ancient) culture. When told well, they can indeed speak to the cultural collective. Halo has had millions of players, and while certainly some of them haven't given a second thought to it's story or universe, some have. By this simple acknowledgement it has, as a matter of course, helped shape the cultural collective.

I recognize that some of this is simply your opinion, but the fact remains that people, and they're myriad peculiarities, are a wide and far reaching canvas. And the story of Halo has had an irrefutable hand in painting on it.

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That's not going to happen for the simple reason that Bungie simply does not have good writers that actually understand and can tell stories with significant human experience or emotion. Sounds harsh but it's true.

Harsh, yes. You sound like a jerk, actually. It's a debatable point based on past games, but it's not a point you know enough to make presently, unless you've got some inside information.

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That's not going to happen for the simple reason that Bungie simply does not have good writers that actually understand and can tell stories with significant human experience or emotion. Sounds harsh but it's true.

Harsh, yes. You sound like a jerk, actually. It's a debatable point based on past games, but it's not a point you know enough to make presently, unless you've got some inside information.

I think Destiny will provide some pretty solid evidence one way or the other. Bungie appears to have plenty of time, resources, and is not beholden to anything that came before story-telling wise.

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Gonna have to say this when creating content if you have to money to back it up it will likely have a higher chance at success. We know Jason Jones is great at designing, what we need to see is if this game will catch the perfect feel and nostalgic feeling. Plus it better come out early or else it will hurt Bungie alot. Maybe an open beta at the beginning of next year or at release day.

As far as i am concerned all they are saying is they are trying to create something so great they hope to god it will be held at the same pedestal as Star Wars.

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Hold onto your butts. Bungie is full powered! 5-6 years in development? All the moneys and support ever? I can't wait to witness what Bungie can create when they have all the horsepower and time they need.

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- No text -

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"I'm out of it for a little while, everybody gets delusions of grandeur"

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Gameindustry.biz Pete Parsons interview

Here we go...

Here we go...

Here we go...

Here we go...

Here we go...

Here we go...

Here we go...

The purity argument always annoys me.

The purity argument always annoys me.

Plenty of PEOPLE

Plenty of PEOPLE

Here we go...

I think this is the best place to post this

+1

Post of the week (month?) right here ^^

I think this is the best place to post this

Thank you sir!

I think this is the best place to post this

And Back to Video Games

And Back to Video Games

And Back to Video Games

And Back to Video Games

Here we go...

-1

Time to veer wildly off topic

+1

LMAO

Wow, worst post of the ever right here ^^

-1,000,000,000 and all my respect forever.

Here we go...

Here we go...

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Here we go...

These are the kind of threads...

These are the kind of threads...

These are the kind of threads...

Well said

These are the kind of threads...

These are the kind of threads...

having worked in advertising

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I'm one of "those people".

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Here we go...

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We both know that Halo stories have been done very well

We both know that Halo stories have been done very well

We both know that Halo stories have been done very well

Addendum from one of your HBO posts, Cody

Addendum from one of your HBO posts, Cody

Addendum from one of your HBO posts, Cody

Addendum from one of your HBO posts, Cody

Addendum from one of your HBO posts, Cody

Addendum from one of your HBO posts, Cody

Addendum from one of your HBO posts, Cody

Addendum from one of your HBO posts, Cody