Lost Sectors

In all the ways that Des2ny is great, I think lost sectors were a misstep.

First of all, they are not lost at all. They are pinpointed on the map with markers, and the markers are additionally in the field. These should have facilitated exploration of the spaces, which would have made the places feel bigger than they are if you don't know what lies beneath.

Second, they are kind of lame. The 'boss' is just a yellow bar enemy, and the spaces aren't super unique like an adventure or a strike.

In a perfect world, a lost sector would activate an adventure, or at the very least a mini-adventure with some lore or story implications.

One of the few misses I think.

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I think they are "lost" in the way that territory is lost to an enemy. Rather than "where the fuck is it?"

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Agreed. I would have liked to just see the marker out in the field somewhere while exploring, then have to dig around a bit to find out how to get into the lost sector, maybe requiring some multi-stage process like some of the stuff on the Dreadnaught. I'd be cool with it appearing on my map after I found it, but having it on the map from the get-go is kind of lame.

-Disciple

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I think they are just supposed to be game-approved replacements for The Loot Cave. In that sense, I think they work fine.

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i was hoping that there would be some mechanic to beating them, kinda like the side tombs in the Tomb Raider reboot. maybe not as elaborate, but it could involve planting charges, using certain elemental types, activating things in a specific order, mini jumping puzzles, etc.

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i was hoping that there would be some mechanic to beating them, kinda like the side tombs in the Tomb Raider reboot. maybe not as elaborate, but it could involve planting charges, using certain elemental types, activating things in a specific order, mini jumping puzzles, etc.

I'm completely with you. These could have been really cool if they all featured one small mechanic that you needed to understand in order to complete them, but instead every lost sector is essentially the same. We can only hope they add something to each one that lets us trigger a "heroic" mode similar to the public events.

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In all the ways that Des2ny is great, I think lost sectors were a misstep.

First of all, they are not lost at all. They are pinpointed on the map with markers, and the markers are additionally in the field. These should have facilitated exploration of the spaces, which would have made the places feel bigger than they are if you don't know what lies beneath.

Second, they are kind of lame. The 'boss' is just a yellow bar enemy, and the spaces aren't super unique like an adventure or a strike.

In a perfect world, a lost sector would activate an adventure, or at the very least a mini-adventure with some lore or story implications.

One of the few misses I think.

I think players super hyped them, when it was pretty clear that they were just going to be a quick hit and kind of part of that base activity churn for the mid to early end game. I thought it was weird how people just knd of ran with the idea and ignored the stuff like adventures that was more lore focussed.

They seem like they basically succeed in giving a quick hit in the map; not everything needs to be like super deep endame or lore.

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like super deep

I read this as if it had been said by Failsafe.

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I'm with you on I was looking forward to exploring and discovering a lost sector. But after seeing how many there were, it's almost like a collectible and the first thing I would have done is get online to find a map that marks the location of them all.

It could have been neat that a Lost Sectors map is something we buy from Cayde, BUT...that ain't the case.

Now that I've completed all the sectors by hunting them on the map, now when I'm tooling around and I come across the symbol, it's a nice surprise to stumble upon and re-find the entrance. So, Saul Goodman.

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Some of them have some interesting spaces, like on Titan. I would like to see some more interesting mini-bosses, or some unique reason to find these out of the way spaces. Some of them are quite large, and it's a shame they are kind of ignored in the general scheme of things.

I had been hoping early on they would be some sort of randomly generated dungeon, linked to the patrol worlds via the caves such that there would be random openings every week.

I think that idea, combined with nightfall style modifiers, would be an awesome addition to Bungie's PVE selections. Kind of a mini-strike in a way.

I get that coding that would be difficult. I don't think Bungie's maps are set up for a random geometry type setup. Even if they only moved environment items and mobs, you still could do some impressive stuff. Combine it with flashpoints, and now you have incentive to explore instead of fast travel to the next public event.

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Oh man, a procedurally generated dungeon would have been so awesome.

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Oh man, a procedurally generated dungeon would have been so awesome.

someone suggested on reddit that Bungie should do a procedurally generated strike with a vex theme (to make it fit into canon since they can phase geometry in and out) and link each room with vex gates. you could essentially play until you got bored or died. the longer you last, the better the rewards.

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I think people vastly underestimate how difficult that would be to create and still end up with something that is actually compelling and fun to play.

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I think people vastly underestimate how difficult that would be to create and still end up with something that is actually compelling and fun to play.

Yeah, I completely agree. There is a reason why Bungie games look so freaking beautiful. It's because they take a lot of hard hours to make it look that beautiful. A lot of work goes into very little details in places you probably wouldn't expect. If you tried to generate that... it would turn into an 8 bit game.

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For a AAA title I don't think this sort of thing is out of reach. The way Destiny works, they could even have their live team make new rooms with new tricks and just sort of slip them in from time to time, or tweak existing rooms. Most of the interesting play in procedural dungeons comes from mixing player and enemy abilities. Maybe you have a room with lava in the middle that you need to jump over. Sometimes the enemies are harpies, who can roam freely, other times vex snipers, and sometimes councellors from the raid which would make player traversal and coordination very important. Different mixes of room geometry, enemies, and player powerups (maybe heavy ammo spawns in that room, maybe only kinetic weapons can be used) would make it very fun.

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For what it's worth, I really enjoyed Diablo III's Rifts, were were just dungeons with random tilesets and enemies with random modifiers. They were nearly as good as any distinct dungeon in the game, and they were basically infinitely repeatable.

I just think doing something like that in a FPS with 3D space would be a much bigger challenge than in an isometric game like Diablo. Good FPS encounters seem like they'd be much harder to design. They'd struggle too make enough rooms to keep it feeling fresh and endless, and that work seems like it'd be more beneficial going towards new strikes or adventures or whatever other activities.

In a perfect world, it's a super neat idea, I just don't think it's a realistic one.

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I think there is a new Warhammer 40k game coming out that does this, the rooms, internal clutter, and enemies are each procedurally generated to form a dungeon.

D1 did the latter two with the Prison of Elders. Really D2 should be able to have a stable of prebuilt rooms they could put together and then generate the latter two. I think the major opportunity would be to add all the various raid mechanics so players could get used to them outside raids/trials etc.

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I think there is a new Warhammer 40k game coming out that does this, the rooms, internal clutter, and enemies are each procedurally generated to form a dungeon.

D1 did the latter two with the Prison of Elders. Really D2 should be able to have a stable of prebuilt rooms they could put together and then generate the latter two. I think the major opportunity would be to add all the various raid mechanics so players could get used to them outside raids/trials etc.

PoE is exactly what I'm thinking about when I say it's too hard to make it good. I liked PoE for what it was, but there was such little variety in the encounters that there might as well have been none at all.

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That is a problem of the play spaces being single-matched rooms around a hub. If they build 2-3 per enemy race, but had design aesthetic overlap (giving each enemy race another one or two they can appear on) and generate a random mechanic + random assortment of enemies based on 1-2 enemy races and you remove a lot of the blandness that PoE had over time. CoE was better because the focus on the boss fights is better than the same adds in the same spaces.

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I think there is a new Warhammer 40k game coming out that does this, the rooms, internal clutter, and enemies are each procedurally generated to form a dungeon.

D1 did the latter two with the Prison of Elders. Really D2 should be able to have a stable of prebuilt rooms they could put together and then generate the latter two. I think the major opportunity would be to add all the various raid mechanics so players could get used to them outside raids/trials etc.

PoE is exactly what I'm thinking about when I say it's too hard to make it good. I liked PoE for what it was, but there was such little variety in the encounters that there might as well have been none at all.

There's a big difference between "Bungie didn't do a good job at that last time" and "it's impossible for a AAA FPS to do it at all"

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I didn't say it was impossible. I do believe it would be incredibly difficult to make it good, especially in the context of what people actually want (an infinitely repeatable activity that remains consistently fun and fresh). I think those resources would be better spent designing a new Patrol space with new missions and activities and strikes, or a new raid, or a new activity we have seen yet.

Random and/or procedural content is incredibly difficult to make good and fun. We have a whole genre for that. They're called rogue likes, and they almost universally suck.

I don't debate that it could be done, it's just way too hard to justify the cost.

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Random and/or procedural content is incredibly difficult to make good and fun. We have a whole genre for that. They're called rogue likes, and they almost universally suck.

Oh. I'm never going to convince you if you don't think Diablo 2 was one of the greatest games of all time.

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I take personal offense to the suggestion that Rogue-likes almost universally suck (not really, but hear me out). I will admit a lot of them have major issues, but most of that is either a baseline lack of enjoyable gameplay or a misunderstanding of what content is good when procedurally generated.

In the context of gameplay I think everyone cannagree that Destiny doesn't have a problem with its core loop. There are a lot of Rogue-likes with gameplay loops that are just not to everyones taste, and some rely too heavily on the repetion of failure for a lot of players. Also an aspect I think Destiny doesn't have excluding Raid Design.

Now, in regard to developers not understanding what is good in procedural generation? I have my personal taste which leads to my theories on this. Now, the joke at the start comes from being introduced to playing Rogue as a small child on an old Tandy computer. Circa 90-91. It was highly influential on my entertainment. My conclusion is that the things that make a good Rogue-like are the exact same as the things that made Rogue good. Those are the things that don't change between runs.

Yes. Bear with me while I talk about how the best aspect of randomly generated games are the parts that aren't randomly generated and why the random generation is still important. I have three examples I'd like to reference in regard to how Destiny could benefit from the same ideas. A lot of these were things I wished PoE had when I first heard about it. It is also what I wanted the Dark Woods to be.

Diablo: Or the Controlled Random Experience -
Obviously Destiny has drawn a lot from Diablo on the loot side of things. But I think the location generation and enemy spawning was the best aspect of the original Diablo. It is why it was content that was worth replaying. There were things that were set (what tileset was used on floor and what enemies are able to be spawned) and things that were random (the layout and enemy distribution) allowing for unique but generally predictable experiences. I don't think this would be a problem at all for Bungie to build, especially with the structure of their art assets/design and my understand of how their antagonist AI works. I might be wrong there, though.

Don't Starve: Or How Players Influence the Random Experience -
In Don't Starve, and as it follows Don't Starve Together, the key thing is that the game plays in cycles. It is a survival game but you improve your chances of survival through base building. This is also the same sort of reason Minecraft works for a lot of people. The ability to build or set actions is very powerful. It gives players the ability to creator order within the chaos. With Sync Plates and Dunking mechanics it wouldn't be hard to establish things that players get randomly being turned into results that they have control over. Whether that is summoning Scorch Cannons that refresh or other resource generators/healing points.

Binding of Isaac: Or Why Random Factors Help Emergent Experiences -
There is so much i can discuss here about BoI as to a Rogue-like done "right" that I won't try. But there is one aspect I think would work effectively in a fame like Destiny. The best and worst experiences in BoI exist because of the interaction of different items overlapping and interacting. When you beat that Final-Final-Final Boss when you are out of health because you happen to shoot spreading projectiles that eliminate enemy projectiles is a very powerful experience. Destiny has modifiers. And we've already been shown how some of these create challenging experiences and how some when combined create absurd novelties. Arc Burn, Airborne, Brawler Peregrine Greaves I am looking at you.

So, in summary, tl;dr, w/e: Destiny has everything in place to support good procedural gameplay. How much time investment it would take to incorporate those systems compared to building new fleshed out Patrol Spaces? I don't have an answer. But in the context of being done right I think Destiny already has the necessary foundation for benefiting from procedural generation.

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I fully agree!

I can imagine a destiny procedural strike where every third room lets you "buy" (with in-game tokens from that run only) modifiers for the rest of your run. There could also be negative status rooms that prevented you from using supers or forced you to use only randomly spawned green guns. You're totally right that the fundamentals are all in place for a great procedurally done endless mode.

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I'm sorry, you're right. I should say they're all bad, just that I don't like them. That was just me being pissy I suppose.

Rogue likes are weird--I want to like them. They look interesting. They just never end up being actually fun to me. It's like 4X games for me, too. They all seem awesome, I can just never really get into them even though I want to.

I like FTL quite a bit, and I bought Unexplored a while ago after Austin Walker talked about and streamed it, and I liked that one, too. I just fall off really fast.

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It is really, really easy to burn out on them. I usually play them really hard for bursts. And then I put them down and play other games. There are a lot of terrible Rogue-likes because they don't have a sufficient central hook or whatever. For example, I had a really hard time getting into FTL because I get anxiety with micromanagement games. But I played Rogue Legacy like it was liquid candy. I stopped playing that when i completed a double run and then couldn't get past the first room anymore.

I am not familiar with Unexplored, though. Which means I know what I'll be looking into at work today during "training hours."

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I played for like ten hours or so, which is nothing, but it was a neat game. The stories that unfold through its systems are really neat, and often ridiculous.

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In all the ways that Des2ny is great, I think lost sectors were a misstep.

First of all, they are not lost at all. They are pinpointed on the map with markers, and the markers are additionally in the field. These should have facilitated exploration of the spaces, which would have made the places feel bigger than they are if you don't know what lies beneath.

Second, they are kind of lame. The 'boss' is just a yellow bar enemy, and the spaces aren't super unique like an adventure or a strike.

In a perfect world, a lost sector would activate an adventure, or at the very least a mini-adventure with some lore or story implications.

One of the few misses I think.

I think an issue with them is that we all kind of hyped them up with our expectations. I know I made the comparison to Horizon Zero Dawn's awesome Cauldrons more than once before launch, when in reality, they're much more akin to Skyrim's bandit caves.

They're not endgame stuff, they're the neat things you run into when you're first leveling up and exploring. The lack of exploration was one of the biggest complaints in D1, and Lost Sectors were the fix in the shape of tucked-away encounter, but unfortunately we pretty much blew past them while leveling up. Our fault, I think.

I know plenty of casual players appreciate them and their loot, so they're not a waste (and some are pretty fun to push through, if only for the unique room designs and visuals). Plus, the fact that some give you a shortcut to a different region is kind of neat.

If you're ever playing with a low-level player, or you start up a new character, go through them, and you'll be surprised at how neat (and sometimes challenging) some of them can be.

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I played through them as I was going through the campaign. If you play them at low level they are a nice challenge.

I was hoping to see instances like the D1 caves where you found unkillable enemies with ?? above their heads. There's no way to beat them at low levels, but you remember them and come back to pummel them when you're maxed out.

I think a better implementation would have been to have them contain high level enemies, and not mark them on the map during the campaign. It would have been more fun to stumble on them but not be able to beat them. Then once the campaign is finished you could go back at a higher power level and complete them. Maybe then have Cayde sell a map if you want help finding them again.

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To be fair, the lost sectors use some of the same iconography that HZD does, so drawing the comparison was natural after having played that game. Pure coincidence, I'd wager, but still...

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They are most useful to me as time-killers when I'm waiting for a Public Event to spawn. I love how tucked away each of them feel, and challenging myself to run through them in <2min so I can get back to the flag is a good time. They're admittedly less involved than I'd anticipated, but I love them for what they are for me: a pretty little snack in between longer experiences.

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They are most useful to me as time-killers when I'm waiting for a Public Event to spawn. I love how tucked away each of them feel, and challenging myself to run through them in <2min so I can get back to the flag is a good time. They're admittedly less involved than I'd anticipated, but I love them for what they are for me: a pretty little snack in between longer experiences.

~m

My take as well. And I was telling a Destiny player today about how amazing the new caves are relative to the caves in D1. I mean, there's not much comparison. Maybe there will be a day when I feel like I know every nook and cranny like I do in the first game, but that day feels like it's a long time coming.

Addendum: I do kind of wish they weren't on the map, especially since the challenges often give you general area.

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Addendum: I do kind of wish they weren't on the map, especially since the challenges often give you general area.

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=20504

See the structure of the puzzle and exploration I detail in that post. It would have been rad if every lost sector had some sort of story based, lore based, environmental cue, or character interaction to clue you in to where it is, and made you feel like you are discovering something.

I mean, none are even locked. Even finding a key and figuring out it what it would open would have been an improvement!

And yes, no marks on the maps and no waypoints. Nothing kills the appeal of the world you create by having players follow waypoints. It would have been way more fun for your companions to give you directions that you had to use your brain to follow. "Go down that road and look for a cave" vs a waypoint. Even Cayde's treasure maps are dumb. They should have been written clues for you to decipher. Going to the marked location is kind of lame.

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Even Cayde's treasure maps are dumb. They should have been written clues for you to decipher. Going to the marked location is kind of lame.

well, then they would be treasure clues instead of treasure maps :P

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Addendum: I do kind of wish they weren't on the map, especially since the challenges often give you general area.

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=20504

See the structure of the puzzle and exploration I detail in that post. It would have been rad if every lost sector had some sort of story based, lore based, environmental cue, or character interaction to clue you in to where it is, and made you feel like you are discovering something.

I mean, none are even locked. Even finding a key and figuring out it what it would open would have been an improvement!

And yes, no marks on the maps and no waypoints. Nothing kills the appeal of the world you create by having players follow waypoints. It would have been way more fun for your companions to give you directions that you had to use your brain to follow. "Go down that road and look for a cave" vs a waypoint. Even Cayde's treasure maps are dumb. They should have been written clues for you to decipher. Going to the marked location is kind of lame.

At the end of the day, many or most players are not going to put in that level of dedication. Gaming is a major part of the lives of the people around here, but for most? Maybe not.

I keep telling my Raid teams to spec their powers to heal and protect teammates instead of do more damage because "...we don't do any damage if we're dead." Likewise, you can create super well hidden spaces that are only hinted at through obscure clues, but: "Players don't have fun with an encounter if they don't get to play them."

For many players, I think your suggestions would have the effect of hiding the content away from them. Maybe that's ok for tip top end game content (Raids, extremely competitive Crucible modes) to be hard to access, but I don't think it is for D2's Lost Sectors.

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Addendum: I do kind of wish they weren't on the map, especially since the challenges often give you general area.

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=20504

See the structure of the puzzle and exploration I detail in that post. It would have been rad if every lost sector had some sort of story based, lore based, environmental cue, or character interaction to clue you in to where it is, and made you feel like you are discovering something.

I mean, none are even locked. Even finding a key and figuring out it what it would open would have been an improvement!

And yes, no marks on the maps and no waypoints. Nothing kills the appeal of the world you create by having players follow waypoints. It would have been way more fun for your companions to give you directions that you had to use your brain to follow. "Go down that road and look for a cave" vs a waypoint. Even Cayde's treasure maps are dumb. They should have been written clues for you to decipher. Going to the marked location is kind of lame.

At the end of the day, many or most players are not going to put in that level of dedication. Gaming is a major part of the lives of the people around here, but for most? Maybe not.

The challenges tell you there is a lost sector in that area. I think that's enough of a hint, and we'd get greater satisfaction from finding them. I say this understanding their goals regarding making the game accessible.

I keep telling my Raid teams to spec their powers to heal and protect teammates instead of do more damage because "...we don't do any damage if we're dead." Likewise, you can create super well hidden spaces that are only hinted at through obscure clues, but: "Players don't have fun with an encounter if they don't get to play them."

There's always the very real possibility that we haven't yet found the real super well hidden spaces. :)

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You understand that is the principle appeal of secrets right? That they are hidden away? The more content you 'hold back' from the player in this way, the deeper the world seems.

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You understand that is the principle appeal of secrets right? That they are hidden away? The more content you 'hold back' from the player in this way, the deeper the world seems.

Players don't have fun with an encounter if they don't get to play them.

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You understand that is the principle appeal of secrets right? That they are hidden away? The more content you 'hold back' from the player in this way, the deeper the world seems.

Players don't have fun with an encounter if they don't get to play them.

I think the text above from both of you encapsulates the argument that I'm sure Bungie had internally.

Because we do get the hints in the challenges, I side with Cody on this one. I mean, they are called "Lost Sectors," but since they're on the map, they're not really lost, are they?

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You understand that is the principle appeal of secrets right? That they are hidden away? The more content you 'hold back' from the player in this way, the deeper the world seems.

Players don't have fun with an encounter if they don't get to play them.

I think the text above from both of you encapsulates the argument that I'm sure Bungie had internally.

Because we do get the hints in the challenges, I side with Cody on this one. I mean, they are called "Lost Sectors," but since they're on the map, they're not really lost, are they?

They are lost, they are full of enemies! We have to take them back. I'm kinda siding with Raga on this one when it comes to the community as a whole. Personally, I wish Cody's way was in there and I wasn't even an average gamer. However, that's not true.

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You understand that is the principle appeal of secrets right? That they are hidden away? The more content you 'hold back' from the player in this way, the deeper the world seems.

Players don't have fun with an encounter if they don't get to play them.

I think the text above from both of you encapsulates the argument that I'm sure Bungie had internally.

Because we do get the hints in the challenges, I side with Cody on this one. I mean, they are called "Lost Sectors," but since they're on the map, they're not really lost, are they?

Here's a crazy idea, what if you don't use the map, and find them on your own instead?
That way you get all of the self-satisfaction, and the people who prefer to play the experiences can simply check their map.

Win/win/win.

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You understand that is the principle appeal of secrets right? That they are hidden away? The more content you 'hold back' from the player in this way, the deeper the world seems.

Players don't have fun with an encounter if they don't get to play them.

I think the text above from both of you encapsulates the argument that I'm sure Bungie had internally.

Because we do get the hints in the challenges, I side with Cody on this one. I mean, they are called "Lost Sectors," but since they're on the map, they're not really lost, are they?

Here's a crazy idea, what if you don't use the map, and find them on your own instead?
That way you get all of the self-satisfaction, and the people who prefer to play the experiences can simply check their map.

Win/win/win.

Kind of what I've been doing. And it's why I have only been to maybe 5 or 6.

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You understand that is the principle appeal of secrets right? That they are hidden away? The more content you 'hold back' from the player in this way, the deeper the world seems.

Players don't have fun with an encounter if they don't get to play them.

I think the text above from both of you encapsulates the argument that I'm sure Bungie had internally.

Because we do get the hints in the challenges, I side with Cody on this one. I mean, they are called "Lost Sectors," but since they're on the map, they're not really lost, are they?

Here's a crazy idea, what if you don't use the map, and find them on your own instead?
That way you get all of the self-satisfaction, and the people who prefer to play the experiences can simply check their map.

Win/win/win.

Kind of what I've been doing. And it's why I have only been to maybe 5 or 6.

This is basically what I do too. And if I recall, the location on the map is for the chest, not the entrance. I could be wrong though.

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It's roughly where the marking is on whatever wall. But the entrance is almost always super close to that.

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You understand that is the principle appeal of secrets right? That they are hidden away? The more content you 'hold back' from the player in this way, the deeper the world seems.

Players don't have fun with an encounter if they don't get to play them.

I think the text above from both of you encapsulates the argument that I'm sure Bungie had internally.

Because we do get the hints in the challenges, I side with Cody on this one. I mean, they are called "Lost Sectors," but since they're on the map, they're not really lost, are they?

Here's a crazy idea, what if you don't use the map, and find them on your own instead?
That way you get all of the self-satisfaction, and the people who prefer to play the experiences can simply check their map.

Win/win/win.

When I'm doing a challenge it's a little difficult not to notice the symbol while I'm reading the name of the area I'm supposed to be in. Having the option to turn off the symbols would be better.

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You understand that is the principle appeal of secrets right? That they are hidden away? The more content you 'hold back' from the player in this way, the deeper the world seems.

Players don't have fun with an encounter if they don't get to play them.

You find just ONE secret, and immediately the whole world is more fun since you have no idea what it now contains. Your statement is completely wrong. Even the secrets that the player doesn't find makes the game more fun!

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If there are a thousand secrets and the player finds zero of them then there is no benefit.

The real solution is to have a compromise and a progression:

- Some secrets specifically pointed out as part of the story, like the Lost Sector below the church. These get the player clued in that there are even secrets to look for.
- Have some easy ones marked and on the map. These ones have been found but were too dangerous to explore at that time.
- Then have a few really secret ones that are extra tough (to find and beat) that give out double extra good rewards.

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If there are a thousand secrets and the player finds zero of them then there is no benefit.

The real solution is to have a compromise and a progression:

- Some secrets specifically pointed out as part of the story, like the Lost Sector below the church. These get the player clued in that there are even secrets to look for.
- Have some easy ones marked and on the map. These ones have been found but were too dangerous to explore at that time.
- Then have a few really secret ones that are extra tough (to find and beat) that give out double extra good rewards.

If it's part of the (main) story, it's not a secret. If it's marked, it's not a secret. The key is to have some secrets that are easy to find with hints, some that require a bit more, and some that require a lot of thought and investigation.

It also helps if the secrets have 'rules'. For example, in Donkey Kong Country, if you see a banana over a pit, you know 99 times out of 100 there's a secret in the pit. Not obvious, but when you learn it it opens up a new world.

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No, wait, I think you're confused…

If it's marked, it's not a secret. The key is to have some secrets that are easy to find with hints….

For example, in Donkey Kong Country, if you see a banana over a pit, you know 99 times out of 100 there's a secret in the pit.

How is a banana different than a symbol on the wall? I think you might want to go back and rethink your argument.

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How is a banana different than a symbol on the wall? I think you might want to go back and rethink your argument.

can you eat a symbol or throw it at a go kart? no. your argument is invalid.

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No, wait, I think you're confused…

If it's marked, it's not a secret. The key is to have some secrets that are easy to find with hints….

For example, in Donkey Kong Country, if you see a banana over a pit, you know 99 times out of 100 there's a secret in the pit.

How is a banana different than a symbol on the wall? I think you might want to go back and rethink your argument.

Because it doesn't indicate anything until you learn the rule. Bananas are like coins or rings. On their own they mean nothing. This is a secret marker.

And bananas over pits is the easiest secrets rule to find in DKC.

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If they were not located on the destination map, but the symbols were still painted around the areas, would that be acceptable?

(I'm trying to make it analogous with the bananas)

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Or... what if the Lost Sector symbols were replaced by the glowing glimmer crystals that spring out of loot boxes and instead of being painted on rocks and buildings in a realistic fashion they were just floating above the Lost Sector entrances?

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Snarky much?

I agree with Cody. The point about Donkey Kong is that those secrets and the bananas that pointed to them were never explicitly indicated to the player in any way. Until it wad discovered those bananas were just like every other banana in the game as far as the players knew. The secret had to be discovered without any handholding.

Contrast to the lost sector symbol which is known to be an indicator of a lost sector close by. It was shown off before the game was even released. We knew going into the game what the symbol meant. The "secret" was already spoiled for us. Even without the indicator on the map, the symbol is a dead giveaway as soon as you see it in the game world. We never had the chance to discover the lost sectors ourselves. They were already pointed out to us.

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If they were not located on the destination map, but the symbols were still painted around the areas, would that be acceptable?

It would to me, but I'm not saying it's unacceptable now. I'm still hoping that there's content that's hidden that will be discovered over time.

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If they were not located on the destination map, but the symbols were still painted around the areas, would that be acceptable?

It would to me, but I'm not saying it's unacceptable now. I'm still hoping that there's content that's hidden that will be discovered over time.

Agreed. I honestly I don't really mind they're posted on the map. But I also don't think of the map as a checklist. :)

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Lost Sectors may not be perfect but there are so many of them they make replay a fairly fresh experience.

You've seen how much I played D1. I think you'd agree I might like them a lot in D2.

I've hardly touched the adventures and looking forward to them also.

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They are honestly about what I expected. I thought there would be more of a puzzle element to them. I've said it before, but I always thought about the room in the Cabal ship on the Dreadnaught where you have to activate the two consoles to open a door that leads to an encounter with a Knight major that drops a unique emblem.

I'm honestly a little surprised at the lack of TTK style puzzles in the Patrol areas.

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my primary use of them is when waiting on Public Events

A Hindsight Compromise

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Rant about Rogue-Likes, Destiny, and RNG.

100%

Rant about Rogue-Likes, Destiny, and RNG.

Rant about Rogue-Likes, Destiny, and RNG.

You might like RimWorld as well. ;)

That's a good game!

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