Did anyone in their wildest dreams think that Bungie would release a game that scored 50%? While I think the press is being somewhat unfairly harsh in their reviews, doing so might help Bungie get their asses in line when it comes to the Eververse and a meaningful story campaign.

I wasn't even aware that they listed reviews for DLC in such a manner. I wouldn't knock Bungie's aggregate Metacritic score, for whatever it's worth, on one measly DLC expansion. Curse of Osiris is absolutely a lackluster addition to the already quite lifeless Destiny 2 base game for sure but I don't see any meaningful changes to improve the game as a service until whatever comes in Year Two. The Dark Below and House of Wolves expansions for Destiny weren't on my radar as nothing meaningful had been added.

While I think the press is being somewhat unfairly harsh in their reviews, doing so might help Bungie get their asses in line when it comes to the Eververse and a meaningful story campaign.

I mean, is this Groundhog Day? I really enjoy D2, but this feels just like D1 in terms of all the controversy surrounding this and that and what they've released post-launch. So many steps backwards from a lot of good steps forward from Taken King through to D2. I don't really know how to feel about Bungie anymore. While I enjoy Destiny as a whole and have for many years here, I'd never argue that it's one of the greatest games I've ever played or ever will play. If Bungie decided that wherever we're at in three years is the end of the Destiny franchise, I'd be okay with that. I think I'm ready for Bungie to try something new (and preferably less loot boxy and MMO-y) for their next game. Fresh start time.

Am I weird for saying that I thought the campaign story was awesome and a lot of fun?

The rest... Yeah, that criticism is well deserved. But I really thought this might be the *first* destiny story that had a reasonable instigating event, acceptable rising action, a great climax, a surprising twist in the falling action, and a satisfying resolution that also explained the continued activity within the scope of the game world.

While I think the press is being somewhat unfairly harsh in their reviews, doing so might help Bungie get their asses in line when it comes to the Eververse and a meaningful story campaign.

I mean, is this Groundhog Day? I really enjoy D2, but this feels just like D1 in terms of all the controversy surrounding this and that and what they've released post-launch. So many steps backwards from a lot of good steps forward from Taken King through to D2. I don't really know how to feel about Bungie anymore. While I enjoy Destiny as a whole and have for many years here, I'd never argue that it's one of the greatest games I've ever played or ever will play. If Bungie decided that wherever we're at in three years is the end of the Destiny franchise, I'd be okay with that. I think I'm ready for Bungie to try something new (and preferably less loot boxy and MMO-y) for their next game. Fresh start time.

All this said, though, remember that Curse of Osiris is likely a very separate thing from what the Live Team has been putting together (namely the QoL changes). I don't think we'll have to wait as long for the game to gain traction like D1 did with the entire year between launch and Taken King/Spring. Maybe D2 will become more akin to Y3D1 before the Season Pass is through, and by Y2, Bungie will have gotten their act together, but like many other folks, I'm no longer as quick to give them the benefit of the doubt. Fool me thrice...

No, I liked it too.

As always seems to be the case, I wish it was deeper. Honestly, this is a story I’d have loved to see explored in a full length campaign. But maybe that’s just because I like the Vex and their aesthetic, and also love the simulation and time travel stuff. I feel like Osiris was wasted a bit.

I didn't ever think I would see the day when video game reviewers could be so wrong.

Destiny is the best game I have ever played.

Destiny 2 is still...top 10? Maybe?

Reviewers have continually and universally been wrong about Destiny and what it's doing since launch. It feels like we're in groundhog day. Won't they ever learn?

I am beginning to stop trusting reviewers and start trusting guys. I will see any Tom Cruise movie. I don't think he has made a bad one. Reviewers took a dump on The Mummy. Way off, that movie was boss. Reviewers say Wes Anderson is the next coming of Christ but his movies are lame. I will listen to every Ted Nugent album, even as reviewers say they're worse and worse. Reviewers like Lana Del Rey who makes awful music.

I don't think they are dishonest. I think movie critics like Wes Anderson because his movies are so novel to them, full of largely samey films that are formulaic. I think game critics can't really grade a game on being fun, so have to talk about other things as proxies, like story, or UI design, or difficulty. They need a good story to get them to like a game. It's their job. Destiny doesn't have that. They need a reason to try to keep playing past the story. They don't, they got the game for free, and no matter how much fun it is, they have a deadline and need to play another game. We see highly rated games like Halo 4 fall flat in the community, because while it ticked all the boxes for the developers, we didn't like it very much.

Destiny 2 is much higher rated than Destiny 1...and it's totally worse for the players. They ticked too many reviewer boxes and not enough player boxes this time. Then the new expansion came out.

Much like The Dank Below, this expansion is getting dumped on left right and center by both the fans (who are let down by Bungie capitulating to their asinine requests), and reviewers, ticking neither of their sets of boxes.

And yet, we will see the tide slowly turn. Bungie will make basic conceits to the whiners. Reviewers will have been invested in this game by virtue of being forced to play its expansions and interacting with the community.

Positive:
I liked the story, I felt they could have improved on the manner in which it was told and depth (imagine that). The concept of time travel in a game and their approach made me desire a randomized Space Arena where anything could happen, maybe an advanced Prison of Elders or dynamic strikes or Crucible racing that is randomized board creation? Time will tell. I ordered the game with both expansions to force myself to give it a year to improve as I expected growing pain again.

Reality:
I still question how, in the spirit of space magic, that I have to physically see someone for a 30 second conversation then go back to where I was potentially taking minutes if I am booted from the service randomly. When seeing cut-scenes in the campaign I didn't see Cayde have to find Zavala and Ikora to talk to them on what to do next or say "this is done". Our ghost talks for us so that can't be the reasoning. Communicators aren't an issue as they are used randomly throughout the game.

I still question that if this is a game of "friendship" why can I not give items to my fire team or is that considered buying friends? D3 had an "issue", sure, I played during the auction house days and loved it. I also like how if someone is with you when you get x item you can also give it to them. Because when I got 3 Gyllenhaals in a day (I named them Jake, Maggie and The Dude, ask Funk as he also adopted my naming), I could have given a few out to people who didnt have one yet in my fire team. Just some thoughts, but it's ok, I do enjoy playing the game.

My main gripe is that I just don't like having to manage some space age vault of data replication that has a database limit of 30GB where I'm at 29.9GB all the time. New expansion, same vault space? Meh.

It's the job of a triple-A publisher to send around a little cash and other perks to reviewers. What happened here? Is Activision asleep at the wheel? Did the checks bounce?

I just checked and it's up to 5 reviews. And I've even heard of one of the outlets before!

I don't think it's reviewers, I think your opinions just aren't the commonly held ones. They're certainly not universal by any means; neither Destiny title would make my top 10 list.

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Classic case of the internet distorting reality.

I'm really enjoying the campaign so far.

Classic case of the internet distorting reality.

I'm really enjoying the campaign so far.

Yeah, I honestly don't know what people are complaining about. Yes, it different and it has it's flaws. But damn is it hella fun. I feel like people are complaining about 5-10% of it as if that's all the game is. Have you freaking looked at how absolutely beautiful this game is!? I honestly would pay half the price of this game just to watch things blow up and stare at the skybox. Screw everything else.

I get this feeling like people have started to live at the base of Mount Everest in all it's beauty (Bungie Games). And suddenly they they are stuck in traffic on their way home for 1 hour of their life and they are bitching and moaning. And I'm in the same traffic and am looking at this beautiful mountain like OMFG THAT MOUNTAIN IS BLOWING MY MIND

What I'm trying to say is, people need to stop and appreciated THE ENTIRE GAME and what is is. Maybe people should ignore the "traffic" and stare at the beautiful mountain that is Destiny for once.

I don’t think the entire game as a whole has ever completely come together. You yourself are appreciating but one piece: the art. And yes, the character movement, art, gunplay, raids, and PvP are all fun. There are just as many parts that need work though. Looking at the game holistically as you say would reveal this.

Destiny has always been less than the sum of its parts.

I don’t think the entire game as a whole has ever completely come together. You yourself are appreciating but one piece: the art.

Yes, I am highlighting the artistic side, which I personally think blows most games out of the water. But there are also many, many other aspects that gamers just take for granted.

And yes, the character movement, art, gunplay, raids, and PvP are all fun. There are just as many parts that need work though. Looking at the game holistically as you say would reveal this.

Just as many? Are we talking quantity or quality? And are you saying that the parts that need work are degrading the parts that shine to the point of sub par?

I personally think that the parts that work far outshine the parts that need more work. But this is also a personally how I play the game and enjoy it. I mean, I take the raid lair we played last night as an example: It was amazing, it was great gameplay, great art, great fun both solo and as a team. The only minor things that annoyed me was the fact that when you wipe you don't get full ammo and maybe a raid mechanic that wasn't properly described through UI/visuals. That's about it. What that raid does well, in my opinion, WAY outshines the minor annoyances.

I just feel like people are so use to what Bungie does well, that they ignore that completely and focus on the annoyances even when comparing it to other games. So many other games feel completely clunky with their controls or have decent art and atmosphere but not anything close to Destiny.

Destiny has always been less than the sum of its parts.

I am beginning to stop trusting reviewers and start trusting guys. I will see any Tom Cruise movie. I don't think he has made a bad one.

Really? You thought 'Cocktail' was good? Ew.

From someone that's been wildly silent since... forever now?

Praises:

• D2 is super awesome good fun.
  
• I do not regret spending $90-100 on it.
  
• The lack of a grind is refreshing, not having to constantly do X, Y, or Z just to level up/keep up/feel like I'm making progress is mucho bueno.
  
• There was a story. It was good.
  
• There's plenty of little side stuff to do. These things are pretty good.
  
• Lack of random perk rolls on guns is hit or miss. Mostly a hit. See: Lack of grind.
  
• Reworked Supers are hit or miss. Mostly hit.
  
• Eververse ain't so bad.

Grumblies:

• Still not 100% sold on Shader System, but it has grown on me.
  
• Mods are useless. I pay them no attention.
  
• Not a fan of lengthened cooldowns, but I've gotten used to it and probably would only really notice now if I jumped back to D1.
  
• More strikes, plz. Less bullshit bosses, plz. I'm looking at you Thaviks. Also that dickhead at the end of the Osiris strike, but I've only run it once, so maybe not so bad.
  
• FFS can we NOT have the Nightfall timed? Please? Or at least make it a modifier? My fireteam has bothered with a Nightfall exactly once. The timer is a no go for us. I want a challenge. I want to enjoy my challenge, at my own pace. Not beat a goddamn clock.
  
• This gun is exactly like this gun which is exactly like that gun, so I'll just keep infusing the first one. Srsly, I don't think I've really changed up my Legendary loadout since... idk, the end of the campaign? This is probably a drawback of fixed perk rolls. I'll grumble about it, but am willing to accept it.
  
• Why Titan Armor so garbage? I mained a female Titan in D1 at first for giggles, then because I loved it, and mostly because female Titans rocked the armor WAAAAAY better than their male counterparts. More armored, less walking dumptruck tank. This is fact. In D2, everyone looks like a friggin linebacker. This makes my female Titan super sad, because she looks like she's wearing armor sixteen sizes too big for her. Like, for real. These shoulder pads though... Thankfully, I've found some good stuff that fits the look I want. Unfortunately, there's not enough of it.
  
• Easier way to replay missions at will. You know how garbage it is I can't revisit the Almighty, one of the prettiest places in the game, whenever I want?
  
• Brother Vance. Plz launch into sun. Or let me kill him?

I could probably add more, but I have real life things to do.

tl;dr
Destiny 2 is fun. There's still room for improvement. Whiners are big babies. I continue to be shocked and amused by what people are legit getting worked up and outraged over.

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And are you saying that the parts that need work are degrading the parts that shine to the point of sub par?

Yes.

I just feel like people are so use to what Bungie does well, that they ignore that completely and focus on the annoyances even when comparing it to other games.

Because the annoyances are major things. If a film has excellent cinematography with gorgeous images, but the script, acting, end editing are bad, then the film isn't good is it? You can't just take elements and rate them individually; a video game, like a film, is the cohesive collection of all that.

What if the cinematography is 'good', but not appropriate for the subject matter? What if the graphics in a game are great, but the mechanics haven't caught up? Both of these things ruin the experience.

Especially in video games, these elements interact with each other making rating them on their own hard. Bioshock Infinite is the perfect example to illustrate this. A gorgeous game, but because the mechanics are so simple, this world that looks real is instantly revealed to be fake because it doesn't feel real. This absolutely kills immersion. So in this case, on its own the art was good, but as part of the game it actually ruined the experience.

Destiny has this problem to an extent. Everything is gorgeous, but the design of the game makes everything seem 'small'.

I think everything is additive.

The Lord of the Rings is not a good book on the whole. The pacing is bad, the dialogue is at best awful, but the world building and the technical writing is so far beyond anything else it's fine. Hence, LOTR is the second best book ever written.

Destiny has no discernible story, but is the best game of all time.

Oxenfree is a chore to play, the mechanics are obnoxious and immersion breaking, and it's still fun and interesting.

Bioshock Infinite felt real to me, with just dead simple shooting and stuff.

Red vs Blue had razor sharp dialogue, but was edited badly, shot badly, and looked like a 2001 Xbox game, and yet it was fantastic, solely because of the gags.

Lazer Team, if you saw it, was genuinely a horrible movie from every single technical aspect. Bad acting, bad sets...editing was fine actually, bad music except for a couple spots, the worst visual effects ever out on film this side of Monsturd, but the writing carried that. Enough amusing jokes makes it a solid 5/10. The badness of the movie doesn't make the gags worse.

See also Clerks, or, on the other side, Avatar. Avatar is a 9/10 movie for me despite being meh in every category but looking pretty.

(Just kidding. Video games aren't movies; you can't play them if you're not awake. I DID find it funny this weekend, though, looking over at Kermit (who's been visiting) and seeing him sound asleep in his chair, with a controller in his hand. He's WAY more hardcore than me - I go to bed long before I get to that point.)

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And are you saying that the parts that need work are degrading the parts that shine to the point of sub par?

Yes.

I just feel like people are so use to what Bungie does well, that they ignore that completely and focus on the annoyances even when comparing it to other games.

Because the annoyances are major things. If a film has excellent cinematography with gorgeous images, but the script, acting, end editing are bad, then the film isn't good is it? You can't just take elements and rate them individually; a video game, like a film, is the cohesive collection of all that.

I can agree with this statement, and answer affirmatively to your question - but I will state that for me, the question isn't applicable in the case of Destiny. The things that don't work for me are TINY compared to the things that do. You're welcome to disagree - but I don't believe that the things that are wrong with Destiny are even in the same LEAGUE of importance as script, acting, and editing are to a movie.

And are you saying that the parts that need work are degrading the parts that shine to the point of sub par?

Yes.

I just feel like people are so use to what Bungie does well, that they ignore that completely and focus on the annoyances even when comparing it to other games.

Because the annoyances are major things. If a film has excellent cinematography with gorgeous images, but the script, acting, end editing are bad, then the film isn't good is it? You can't just take elements and rate them individually; a video game, like a film, is the cohesive collection of all that.

I can agree with this statement, and answer affirmatively to your question - but I will state that for me, the question isn't applicable in the case of Destiny. The things that don't work for me are TINY compared to the things that do. You're welcome to disagree - but I don't believe that the things that are wrong with Destiny are even in the same LEAGUE of importance as script, acting, and editing are to a movie.

I guess this is where we disagree. I think the problems are huge. For me, these are problems that prevent the world from truly coming alive and making me feel a sense of excitement and wonder about what it contains. And because the art is so great, it's a world that WANTS to come alive. But it can't. The rest of the game is holding it back.

Curious: what exactly are you looking for when you say “alive” in this context?

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I played the free weekend for The Division the past couple of days and they had a 'share' option for this very scenario. You pick something up during a mission, you 'share' it with anyone in your party.

Probably going to pick up the gold edition for $30 as I've had a lot of fun so far with the game, and $30 seems very reasonable.

- MacGyver10

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And are you saying that the parts that need work are degrading the parts that shine to the point of sub par?

Yes.

I just feel like people are so use to what Bungie does well, that they ignore that completely and focus on the annoyances even when comparing it to other games.

Because the annoyances are major things. If a film has excellent cinematography with gorgeous images, but the script, acting, end editing are bad, then the film isn't good is it? You can't just take elements and rate them individually; a video game, like a film, is the cohesive collection of all that.

I can agree with this statement, and answer affirmatively to your question - but I will state that for me, the question isn't applicable in the case of Destiny. The things that don't work for me are TINY compared to the things that do. You're welcome to disagree - but I don't believe that the things that are wrong with Destiny are even in the same LEAGUE of importance as script, acting, and editing are to a movie.

I guess this is where we disagree. I think the problems are huge. For me, these are problems that prevent the world from truly coming alive and making me feel a sense of excitement and wonder about what it contains. And because the art is so great, it's a world that WANTS to come alive. But it can't. The rest of the game is holding it back.

You would have to play it, but the Raid lair felt like what you are describing to me.

You would have to play it, but the Raid lair felt like what you are describing to me.

I am sure. Raids have never disappointed. But almost all feel like their own little world, disconnected from the rest of the game.

No, I liked it too.

As always seems to be the case, I wish it was deeper. Honestly, this is a story I’d have loved to see explored in a full length campaign. But maybe that’s just because I like the Vex and their aesthetic, and also love the simulation and time travel stuff. I feel like Osiris was wasted a bit.

So, I walked away from the CoO campaign feeling like I don't really need to play another Destiny campaign ever again. And no, I don't mean that in the ragingly negative way that it sounds... because I found the campaign fun. I'm still piecing together my thoughts on why I feel this way. But to me, Bungie's storytelling has just become so surface level, so unsatisfying, that I almost want to see what would happen if they just got it out of the way. Stop treating it like something that matters, because it SO does not.

Overall, CoO felt a lot like a mini version of D2; mostly fun campaign that doesn't live up to the glory days of Bungie's past, with a bare-bones "end game" that feels lacking compared to the later days of D1. It feels stuck in an awkward middle ground to me.

No, I liked it too.

As always seems to be the case, I wish it was deeper. Honestly, this is a story I’d have loved to see explored in a full length campaign. But maybe that’s just because I like the Vex and their aesthetic, and also love the simulation and time travel stuff. I feel like Osiris was wasted a bit.

So, I walked away from the CoO campaign feeling like I don't really need to play another Destiny campaign ever again. And no, I don't mean that in the ragingly negative way that it sounds... because I found the campaign fun. I'm still piecing together my thoughts on why I feel this way. But to me, Bungie's storytelling has just become so surface level, so unsatisfying, that I almost want to see what would happen if they just got it out of the way. Stop treating it like something that matters, because it SO does not.

Overall, CoO felt a lot like a mini version of D2; mostly fun campaign that doesn't live up to the glory days of Bungie's past, with a bare-bones "end game" that feels lacking compared to the later days of D1. It feels stuck in an awkward middle ground to me.

Focus would help. Just like Des2ny, we were bouncing around from location to location needlessly. Why couldn't every mission have been on Mercury? Why didn't Ikora join us as an AI companion like the Arbiter / Marines? Those two changes would have helped so much.

Curious: what exactly are you looking for when you say “alive” in this context?

The feeling of existing beyond merely being the container for the game action. Obviously this is what all the game space actually is, but many games can create the illusion it isn't.

No, I liked it too.

As always seems to be the case, I wish it was deeper. Honestly, this is a story I’d have loved to see explored in a full length campaign. But maybe that’s just because I like the Vex and their aesthetic, and also love the simulation and time travel stuff. I feel like Osiris was wasted a bit.

So, I walked away from the CoO campaign feeling like I don't really need to play another Destiny campaign ever again. And no, I don't mean that in the ragingly negative way that it sounds... because I found the campaign fun. I'm still piecing together my thoughts on why I feel this way. But to me, Bungie's storytelling has just become so surface level, so unsatisfying, that I almost want to see what would happen if they just got it out of the way. Stop treating it like something that matters, because it SO does not.

Overall, CoO felt a lot like a mini version of D2; mostly fun campaign that doesn't live up to the glory days of Bungie's past, with a bare-bones "end game" that feels lacking compared to the later days of D1. It feels stuck in an awkward middle ground to me.

Focus would help. Just like Des2ny, we were bouncing around from location to location needlessly. Why couldn't every mission have been on Mercury? Why didn't Ikora join us as an AI companion like the Arbiter / Marines? Those two changes would have helped so much.

Perhaps. The larger issues to me (in terms of story) is that everything is told, and none of it is shown. Ikora tells us she’s grown or changed, while displaying no evidence of either. Osiris is held up as the most notorious and powerful Guardian who ever lived, yet nothing he says or does seems controversial, and he waits until we’ve done all the heavy lifting before showing up to help.

None of this is a huge deal... the bigger deal to me is that Osiris is a character that has been hugely significant in Destiny’s lore. He’s been whispered about and hinted at for 3 years. And now that he finally steps into the spotlight, he is utterly squandered and wasted. One of the recurring comments about Destiny is that there is all this great backstory and lore... if only it were actually in the game! But to me, CoO shows that Bungie is (at the moment) incapable of putting any of that material into the game in a way that remotely lives up to its potential. And THAT realization prevents me from caring about any of it. None of it matters, and at this rate none of it will ever matter.

Again, I know this sounds very negative, and that doesn’t reflect my overall opinion of the expansion. Because it’s still Destiny, and playing Destiny with friends is a blast. It’s just sad that after 2 full games and 6 story-based expansions, I’m still waiting for Bungie to use this universe to tell a story worth caring about.

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Is there anything in Destiny 2 specifically that you think would capture that for you? Or examples of times in games that achieve that?

There are loads of things I can cote for me personally that make the world feel alive wihout me. So I hold personal curiosity for what things will or won’t do the same for other people. If you don’t mind humoring me further.

None of this is a huge deal... the bigger deal to me is that Osiris is a character that has been hugely significant in Destiny’s lore. He’s been whispered about and hinted at for 3 years. And now that he finally steps into the spotlight, he is utterly squandered and wasted. One of the recurring comments about Destiny is that there is all this great backstory and lore... if only it were actually in the game! But to me, CoO shows that Bungie is (at the moment) incapable of putting any of that material into the game in a way that remotely lives up to its potential. And THAT realization prevents me from caring about any of it. None of it matters, and at this rate none of it will ever matter.

Again, I know this sounds very negative, and that doesn’t reflect my overall opinion of the expansion. Because it’s still Destiny, and playing Destiny with friends is a blast. It’s just sad that after 2 full games and 6 story-based expansions, I’m still waiting for Bungie to use this universe to tell a story worth caring about.

I can't say I disagree with any of that. Maybe Bungie just still doesn't get visual storytelling. The thing is though, I think Bungie knew the messed up with the story in Destiny. They should have spared no expense in making Des2ny's story super compelling, especially given they are throwing out a lot of the lore from Destiny to simplify things. I am sure they wanted to. The fact that it is still in a bad place must mean they are unable to. And that's a huge bummer.

Is there anything in Destiny 2 specifically that you think would capture that for you? Or examples of times in games that achieve that?

There are loads of things I can cote for me personally that make the world feel alive wihout me. So I hold personal curiosity for what things will or won’t do the same for other people. If you don’t mind humoring me further.

Sure.

I remember the first time I played Deus Ex. You could do a huge number of things, and in talking to people they'd reveal things about themselves, other characters, and the world. The whole thing was way bigger an deeper than you'd think. You might talk to a bartender, and he'd ask you to steal drugs from the place down the street in exchange for cash. If you sneak in and look, you find the drugs hidden away, and there's a mini story about who has them and why. There are no waypoints or indicators anywhere - the world is simply there, and it's on you to explore.

There's the market in Uncharted 4. Literally hundreds of NPCs animated going about their business as you step on through. This feels like a real place.

Halo felt real as you run through the PoA and Marines are running, screaming, and dying as the covenant attack. Some of these Marines accompany you through several missions. There are other characters in this world that inhabit it too.

Destiny doesn't really do any of this stuff to the degree it should.

I can't say I disagree with any of that. Maybe Bungie just still doesn't get visual storytelling. The thing is though, I think Bungie knew the messed up with the story in Destiny. They should have spared no expense in making Des2ny's story super compelling, especially given they are throwing out a lot of the lore from Destiny to simplify things. I am sure they wanted to. The fact that it is still in a bad place must mean they are unable to. And that's a huge bummer.

I honestly still think the way Destiny is designed fights against having a compelling campaign. Even trying to take it all in, take it slowly and enjoy everything, I ended up rushing through the campaign, because the "good stuff" is in the endgame. Especially after playing Destiny 1 so much, it all almost feels like filler until you get that first purple drop, then it feels like you're in the real shit.

It seems obvious that the adventures and lost sectors were meant to be played as players made their way through the campaign. I can see how this might make the Destiny campaign this sort of grand experience, but I just don't think it works that way in reality. I certainly did a few of them here and there, but then left a lot of them because I wanted to make sure I was raid ready, and I wanted to see the main story. I think there are still some here and there that I haven't done yet.

Destiny's loot and power level and all of that works against the campaign experience, for me at least. I feel like they tried to fix it by giving you some exotics throughout the campaign, but the fact is that, even if the weapons themselves are fun and good, getting green and blue drops throughout the story feels bad. It feels like you're getting garbage that you're going to replace immediately, and the fact that the drops come so often and so fast that you do end up replacing them immediately doesn't help any.

I really can't help but wonder where the power level system makes any sense in the context of Destiny 2. I honestly don't see how it benefits the game at all. All it does is gate content behind an arbitrary number, and, honestly, a difficulty setting could solve the same problem. The normal raid is the equivalent of Normal in Halo terms. Then just make the Prestige raid the Heroic equivalent, no stupid numbers required.

I really can't help but wonder where the power level system makes any sense in the context of Destiny 2. I honestly don't see how it benefits the game at all. All it does is gate content behind an arbitrary number, and, honestly, a difficulty setting could solve the same problem. The normal raid is the equivalent of Normal in Halo terms. Then just make the Prestige raid the Heroic equivalent, no stupid numbers required.

Been saying this since 2013 man :-p

No, I liked it too.

As always seems to be the case, I wish it was deeper. Honestly, this is a story I’d have loved to see explored in a full length campaign. But maybe that’s just because I like the Vex and their aesthetic, and also love the simulation and time travel stuff. I feel like Osiris was wasted a bit.

So, I walked away from the CoO campaign feeling like I don't really need to play another Destiny campaign ever again. And no, I don't mean that in the ragingly negative way that it sounds... because I found the campaign fun. I'm still piecing together my thoughts on why I feel this way. But to me, Bungie's storytelling has just become so surface level, so unsatisfying, that I almost want to see what would happen if they just got it out of the way. Stop treating it like something that matters, because it SO does not.

Overall, CoO felt a lot like a mini version of D2; mostly fun campaign that doesn't live up to the glory days of Bungie's past, with a bare-bones "end game" that feels lacking compared to the later days of D1. It feels stuck in an awkward middle ground to me.

Is the story of Destiny 2 or Curse of Osiris really any worse or more shallow than anything in Halo? I like Halo's story, but I don't think that it's that compelling on its own. It's good because it gave us tons of cool moments and characters ("Tank beats everything!").

I honestly think the lack of friendly AI characters is what separates the two the most from me. As you said, why can't I fight next to Ikora and Osiris? Having these characters only ever be voices on the radio really hurts my relationship with them and my ability to care about them. Would anyone like the Arbiter if he just spoke to you on the comms the entire time during Halo 3, rather than fighting by your side? I wouldn't.

Despite having a much more grand and epic lore, Destiny feels far more mundane than Halo in a lot of respects. Lack of friendly AI helping fight makes it feel like my Guardian is literally the only one doing anything ever. The Master Chief was the hero of Halo, for sure, but it never felt like he was the only one accomplishing anything. That's not true in Destiny, where it feels like everyone else might as well just not exist, because my Guardian does literally every single thing of any importance.

I honestly think the lack of friendly AI characters is what separates the two the most from me. As you said, why can't I fight next to Ikora and Osiris? Having these characters only ever be voices on the radio really hurts my relationship with them and my ability to care about them. Would anyone like the Arbiter if he just spoke to you on the comms the entire time during Halo 3, rather than fighting by your side? I wouldn't.

This also gives you way more flexibility with cinematics to tell the story, where characters can talk to each other and work things out during missions. That is, assuming they give our guardian a voice…

Despite having a much more grand and epic lore, Destiny feels far more mundane than Halo in a lot of respects. Lack of friendly AI helping fight makes it feel like my Guardian is literally the only one doing anything ever. The Master Chief was the hero of Halo, for sure, but it never felt like he was the only one accomplishing anything. That's not true in Destiny, where it feels like everyone else might as well just not exist, because my Guardian does literally every single thing of any importance.

Another aspect of the world not feeling 'alive'. If you're the only one doing anything, then clearly the world was built only for you…

Destiny doesn't really do any of this stuff to the degree it should.

The Tower is honestly the perfect example of this. I though the new Tower was great at first, but it's honestly not any better.

Every NPCs stands in exactly the same place, never moving, spouting the same three lines over and over again. The area near Ikora felt awesome at first, a bunch of people milling about. But it's always exactly the same every time I go down there.

Maybe it's too much work for too little benefit, but why don't the scenes rotate? Why not give NPCs some schedules (ala Skyrim or The Witcher), switch up the faces I see around. Ikora doesn't always have to just stand in that courtyard, maybe she goes and talks to Zavala sometimes, maybe both of them and Cayde go get noodles occasionally, etc.

I don't even know that it affects player convenience either, really. Every other RPG has quest givers and important NPCs move around. They have a map and quests icons, I'm sure we can figure out where they are. It would be worth it to have the Tower (and thus, the universe) feel a little less lifeless.

Then again, maybe that really would be prohibitively annoying after a while. What do I know?

No, I liked it too.

As always seems to be the case, I wish it was deeper. Honestly, this is a story I’d have loved to see explored in a full length campaign. But maybe that’s just because I like the Vex and their aesthetic, and also love the simulation and time travel stuff. I feel like Osiris was wasted a bit.

So, I walked away from the CoO campaign feeling like I don't really need to play another Destiny campaign ever again. And no, I don't mean that in the ragingly negative way that it sounds... because I found the campaign fun. I'm still piecing together my thoughts on why I feel this way. But to me, Bungie's storytelling has just become so surface level, so unsatisfying, that I almost want to see what would happen if they just got it out of the way. Stop treating it like something that matters, because it SO does not.

Overall, CoO felt a lot like a mini version of D2; mostly fun campaign that doesn't live up to the glory days of Bungie's past, with a bare-bones "end game" that feels lacking compared to the later days of D1. It feels stuck in an awkward middle ground to me.

Is the story of Destiny 2 or Curse of Osiris really any worse or more shallow than anything in Halo? I like Halo's story, but I don't think that it's that compelling on its own. It's good because it gave us tons of cool moments and characters ("Tank beats everything!").

I'm a little bit of an outlier around these parts in that I don't think Halo's story was that great in its own right... but I do think it was very effective in terms of how it drove the player through the campaign. First of all, we always had a clear idea of what we were doing and why we were doing it. 2nd, while none of the characters were particularly deep, they had believable and relatable reactions and motivations. They behaved in ways that made sense given the context of the situation. And in many ways, their words and actions were a reflection or extension of the player's thoughts. Characters would express feelings of wonder upon seeing a Halo ring for the first time. They would greet 117 with relief and renewed courage. They would attack the Covenant with the anger and aggression you would expect to see from marines who's home had just been attacked or destroyed.

On both the points I've outlined above, Destiny 1 failed. Destiny 2 is an improvement as far as point "A" is concerned, but it is still mostly a failure as far as point "B" is concerned. Characters talk to each other as if they are doing anything, but they generally aren't (or if they are, it is invisible to the player). Zavala and what's-her-name talk about ships and scouts and patrols all over Titan, but there's never any sign of any of it. Zavala and Ikora have their own "arcs" where they overcome their doubts and fears, through absolutely no action of their own. They're depressed, they see us show up and do everything, and suddenly they go back to acting exactly the way they would have acted before D2 began.

Nowhere in Destiny 1 or 2 is there a moment that comes close to producing a sense of loss or urgency the way Fohammer's death or the crash landing of your escape pod or failure to save Keys does in Halo. Never does Destiny's story make me ready to run screaming into enemy forces the way the intro to the Silent Cartographer or the landing of the Forward Unto Dawn on the Arc does. In fact, when Destiny sets up moments that have the potential to carry such weight, the writing actively works against it. Cayde gets his arm blown off for comic effect. Views of the grand vistas on Nessus are undercut by one-liners about "Vex Milk".

Didn't somebody here once post a video talking about how the Marvel movies have started undercutting their most important character scenes by undercutting them with untimely attempts at humor? Yeah. Destiny 2 does that a lot.

I honestly think the lack of friendly AI characters is what separates the two the most from me. As you said, why can't I fight next to Ikora and Osiris? Having these characters only ever be voices on the radio really hurts my relationship with them and my ability to care about them. Would anyone like the Arbiter if he just spoke to you on the comms the entire time during Halo 3, rather than fighting by your side? I wouldn't.

Agreed.

Despite having a much more grand and epic lore, Destiny feels far more mundane than Halo in a lot of respects. Lack of friendly AI helping fight makes it feel like my Guardian is literally the only one doing anything ever. The Master Chief was the hero of Halo, for sure, but it never felt like he was the only one accomplishing anything. That's not true in Destiny, where it feels like everyone else might as well just not exist, because my Guardian does literally every single thing of any importance.

That's part of what I'm getting at regarding storytelling in Destiny and Destiny 2. What is supposedly going on is just so disjointed from what we actually see in-game.

Destiny doesn't really do any of this stuff to the degree it should.

The Tower is honestly the perfect example of this. I though the new Tower was great at first, but it's honestly not any better.

Every NPCs stands in exactly the same place, never moving, spouting the same three lines over and over again. The area near Ikora felt awesome at first, a bunch of people milling about. But it's always exactly the same every time I go down there.

Maybe it's too much work for too little benefit, but why don't the scenes rotate? Why not give NPCs some schedules (ala Skyrim or The Witcher), switch up the faces I see around. Ikora doesn't always have to just stand in that courtyard, maybe she goes and talks to Zavala sometimes, maybe both of them and Cayde go get noodles occasionally, etc.

I don't even know that it affects player convenience either, really. Every other RPG has quest givers and important NPCs move around. They have a map and quests icons, I'm sure we can figure out where they are. It would be worth it to have the Tower (and thus, the universe) feel a little less lifeless.

Then again, maybe that really would be prohibitively annoying after a while. What do I know?

Needing to go to the tower at all is prohibitively annoying ;)

...especially given they are throwing out a lot of the lore from Destiny to simplify things.

That we haven’t looked in on certain corners of the Destiny universe in the first three months of Destiny 2 doesn’t mean things have been thrown out. Or forgotten. Or abandoned. Or whatever.

The only part of Destiny’s extended lore that has not carried forward is that surrounding the Ishtar Collective and the Exo Stranger. If she were going to reappear anywhere it probably would have been in CoO as we face down a new Vex threat. But even then, the Exo Stranger and the other Ishtar scientists have not been completely forgotten as Destiny 2 has multiple hints ranging from obscure references (like the Ghost scan on Titan that mentions Hyperion) to short stores in the Lore tab (Maya Sunderash and Chioma), to a direct, voiced reference to the Stranger by our Ghost. Heck, the story of Maya and Chioma even got a new piece added to it in CoO!

The stories of each of Destiny’s major players has already advanced a little in Destiny 2. The Fallen have merged into one house with evidence that it is controlled by Prince Uldren and the House of Kings. The Hive seem to be regrouping under control of one of Oryx’s sisters probably Savathun. The Cabal, obviously, just lost their primary leader and their solar system destroying super weapon, and we just now stopped a major Vex threat. We even have quite a bit of evidence that Calus and his Leviathan is something of a herald for the Darkness.

Maybe you can name a character or group that hasn’t received a mention since Destiny 1, but off the top of my head I cannot think of any. So, to claim that Bungie is throwing out lore, much less a lot of lore? I do not believe you are correct.

Nowhere in Destiny 1 or 2 is there a moment that comes close to producing a sense of loss or urgency the way Fohammer's death or the crash landing of your escape pod or failure to save Keys does in Halo. Never does Destiny's story make me ready to run screaming into enemy forces the way the intro to the Silent Cartographer or the landing of the Forward Unto Dawn on the Arc does. In fact, when Destiny sets up moments that have the potential to carry such weight, the writing actively works against it. Cayde gets his arm blown off for comic effect. Views of the grand vistas on Nessus are undercut by one-liners about "Vex Milk".

Didn't somebody here once post a video talking about how the Marvel movies have started undercutting their most important character scenes by undercutting them with untimely attempts at humor? Yeah. Destiny 2 does that a lot.

That sounds like something I'd say.

Humor is actually tough to do right, but I think that the key is to not tell "jokes", but craft the scenario such that a character's natural reactions to a situation or other characters are themselves humorous. As a bonus, this type of humor doesn't get as old as a joke.

I've seen Back to the Future at least 200 times in my life (literally), but the way the characters react to each other is still funny and charming. Seriously look at that film and try to find a "joke". Everything is motivated. I would say very little in Destiny 2 has that kind of motivation, and much of it is simply jokes.

You know what I felt did this pretty well more often than not? ODST. But oops… Joe is gone.

Marvel is really bad at this, and uses 'jokes' in order to make us think the characters are fun and funny and therefore like them. It's not a model I'd really recommend emulating. Comedy isn't the band aid. It's the cookie when you're done baking.

The 2015 movie with Tom Hardy (looks like no relation whatsoever - totally different films) is much better-rated.

I'm now super-sad I didn't take any pics. :(

Perfectly acceptable film.

Yeah, they’re totally different. I just tend to consider the 1985 film as one of the greatest works of fantasy cinema. Though opinions are heavily divided depending on cut.

No, I liked it too.

As always seems to be the case, I wish it was deeper. Honestly, this is a story I’d have loved to see explored in a full length campaign. But maybe that’s just because I like the Vex and their aesthetic, and also love the simulation and time travel stuff. I feel like Osiris was wasted a bit.

So, I walked away from the CoO campaign feeling like I don't really need to play another Destiny campaign ever again. And no, I don't mean that in the ragingly negative way that it sounds... because I found the campaign fun. I'm still piecing together my thoughts on why I feel this way. But to me, Bungie's storytelling has just become so surface level, so unsatisfying, that I almost want to see what would happen if they just got it out of the way. Stop treating it like something that matters, because it SO does not.

Overall, CoO felt a lot like a mini version of D2; mostly fun campaign that doesn't live up to the glory days of Bungie's past, with a bare-bones "end game" that feels lacking compared to the later days of D1. It feels stuck in an awkward middle ground to me.

Is the story of Destiny 2 or Curse of Osiris really any worse or more shallow than anything in Halo? I like Halo's story, but I don't think that it's that compelling on its own. It's good because it gave us tons of cool moments and characters ("Tank beats everything!").

I honestly think the lack of friendly AI characters is what separates the two the most from me. As you said, why can't I fight next to Ikora and Osiris? Having these characters only ever be voices on the radio really hurts my relationship with them and my ability to care about them. Would anyone like the Arbiter if he just spoke to you on the comms the entire time during Halo 3, rather than fighting by your side? I wouldn't.

Despite having a much more grand and epic lore, Destiny feels far more mundane than Halo in a lot of respects. Lack of friendly AI helping fight makes it feel like my Guardian is literally the only one doing anything ever. The Master Chief was the hero of Halo, for sure, but it never felt like he was the only one accomplishing anything. That's not true in Destiny, where it feels like everyone else might as well just not exist, because my Guardian does literally every single thing of any importance.

The only time I have really felt for a character in Destiny other an my guardian, because the main story did that for me in D2, is the one strike about the guardians who were getting captured and having the light sucked out of them by the Hive. That was a freaking good strike because I actually felt bad for those guardians. It was also the first time I felt like we were actually losing people. Even at the end of the D2 campaign, I felt like it was a struggle, but I never felt like anyone even died in that final stand.

I remember the first time I played Deus Ex. You could do a huge number of things, and in talking to people they'd reveal things about themselves, other characters, and the world. The whole thing was way bigger an deeper than you'd think. You might talk to a bartender, and he'd ask you to steal drugs from the place down the street in exchange for cash. If you sneak in and look, you find the drugs hidden away, and there's a mini story about who has them and why. There are no waypoints or indicators anywhere - the world is simply there, and it's on you to explore.

Seriously, every time you post about Deus Ex...

No, I liked it too.

As always seems to be the case, I wish it was deeper. Honestly, this is a story I’d have loved to see explored in a full length campaign. But maybe that’s just because I like the Vex and their aesthetic, and also love the simulation and time travel stuff. I feel like Osiris was wasted a bit.

So, I walked away from the CoO campaign feeling like I don't really need to play another Destiny campaign ever again. And no, I don't mean that in the ragingly negative way that it sounds... because I found the campaign fun. I'm still piecing together my thoughts on why I feel this way. But to me, Bungie's storytelling has just become so surface level, so unsatisfying, that I almost want to see what would happen if they just got it out of the way. Stop treating it like something that matters, because it SO does not.

Overall, CoO felt a lot like a mini version of D2; mostly fun campaign that doesn't live up to the glory days of Bungie's past, with a bare-bones "end game" that feels lacking compared to the later days of D1. It feels stuck in an awkward middle ground to me.

Is the story of Destiny 2 or Curse of Osiris really any worse or more shallow than anything in Halo? I like Halo's story, but I don't think that it's that compelling on its own. It's good because it gave us tons of cool moments and characters ("Tank beats everything!").

I honestly think the lack of friendly AI characters is what separates the two the most from me. As you said, why can't I fight next to Ikora and Osiris? Having these characters only ever be voices on the radio really hurts my relationship with them and my ability to care about them. Would anyone like the Arbiter if he just spoke to you on the comms the entire time during Halo 3, rather than fighting by your side? I wouldn't.

Despite having a much more grand and epic lore, Destiny feels far more mundane than Halo in a lot of respects. Lack of friendly AI helping fight makes it feel like my Guardian is literally the only one doing anything ever. The Master Chief was the hero of Halo, for sure, but it never felt like he was the only one accomplishing anything. That's not true in Destiny, where it feels like everyone else might as well just not exist, because my Guardian does literally every single thing of any importance.

The only time I have really felt for a character in Destiny other an my guardian, because the main story did that for me in D2, is the one strike about the guardians who were getting captured and having the light sucked out of them by the Hive. That was a freaking good strike because I actually felt bad for those guardians. It was also the first time I felt like we were actually losing people. Even at the end of the D2 campaign, I felt like it was a struggle, but I never felt like anyone even died in that final stand.

Her lines can vary a bit during the Savathun's Song Strike, but I love the one exchange where our Ghost says something like "Hold on, we're coming to rescue you!" and Takeo-3 responds "Rescue me?! No. I'm coming to rescue you!"

The end to that Strike is so bittersweet as well. There's one ending variant (that I can't quite remember at the moment) where your Ghost gives tribute to Takeo-3 and it gets me every time.

No, I liked it too.

As always seems to be the case, I wish it was deeper. Honestly, this is a story I’d have loved to see explored in a full length campaign. But maybe that’s just because I like the Vex and their aesthetic, and also love the simulation and time travel stuff. I feel like Osiris was wasted a bit.

So, I walked away from the CoO campaign feeling like I don't really need to play another Destiny campaign ever again. And no, I don't mean that in the ragingly negative way that it sounds... because I found the campaign fun. I'm still piecing together my thoughts on why I feel this way. But to me, Bungie's storytelling has just become so surface level, so unsatisfying, that I almost want to see what would happen if they just got it out of the way. Stop treating it like something that matters, because it SO does not.

Overall, CoO felt a lot like a mini version of D2; mostly fun campaign that doesn't live up to the glory days of Bungie's past, with a bare-bones "end game" that feels lacking compared to the later days of D1. It feels stuck in an awkward middle ground to me.

Is the story of Destiny 2 or Curse of Osiris really any worse or more shallow than anything in Halo? I like Halo's story, but I don't think that it's that compelling on its own. It's good because it gave us tons of cool moments and characters ("Tank beats everything!").

I honestly think the lack of friendly AI characters is what separates the two the most from me. As you said, why can't I fight next to Ikora and Osiris? Having these characters only ever be voices on the radio really hurts my relationship with them and my ability to care about them. Would anyone like the Arbiter if he just spoke to you on the comms the entire time during Halo 3, rather than fighting by your side? I wouldn't.

Despite having a much more grand and epic lore, Destiny feels far more mundane than Halo in a lot of respects. Lack of friendly AI helping fight makes it feel like my Guardian is literally the only one doing anything ever. The Master Chief was the hero of Halo, for sure, but it never felt like he was the only one accomplishing anything. That's not true in Destiny, where it feels like everyone else might as well just not exist, because my Guardian does literally every single thing of any importance.

The only time I have really felt for a character in Destiny other an my guardian, because the main story did that for me in D2, is the one strike about the guardians who were getting captured and having the light sucked out of them by the Hive. That was a freaking good strike because I actually felt bad for those guardians. It was also the first time I felt like we were actually losing people. Even at the end of the D2 campaign, I felt like it was a struggle, but I never felt like anyone even died in that final stand.

And that strike I literally have never played to this day, because they are random and not integrated into the campaign progression.

I remember the first time I played Deus Ex. You could do a huge number of things, and in talking to people they'd reveal things about themselves, other characters, and the world. The whole thing was way bigger an deeper than you'd think. You might talk to a bartender, and he'd ask you to steal drugs from the place down the street in exchange for cash. If you sneak in and look, you find the drugs hidden away, and there's a mini story about who has them and why. There are no waypoints or indicators anywhere - the world is simply there, and it's on you to explore.

Seriously, every time you post about Deus Ex...

I started the first on PS4, but the control and graphics were bad. I’m not doing it until I can play them on PC. Why a next gen remaster is not at 60fps is beyond me.

I remember the first time I played Deus Ex. You could do a huge number of things, and in talking to people they'd reveal things about themselves, other characters, and the world. The whole thing was way bigger an deeper than you'd think. You might talk to a bartender, and he'd ask you to steal drugs from the place down the street in exchange for cash. If you sneak in and look, you find the drugs hidden away, and there's a mini story about who has them and why. There are no waypoints or indicators anywhere - the world is simply there, and it's on you to explore.

Seriously, every time you post about Deus Ex...

I started the first on PS4, but the control and graphics were bad. I’m not doing it until I can play them on PC. Why a next gen remaster is not at 60fps is beyond me.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ the original on console was 30fps and the remaster DOES look much better.

But yeah, get an amped PC and play it. I don't care what you have to do, just do it. Then when you're done with Dishonored, Dishonored 2 improves on it SOOOOO much.

You bring up Deus Ex a lot, and it's not like the lead designer of Deus Ex stopped making games, he went on to make Dishonored and DIshonored 2, AND Prey (2017).

- No text -

I remember the first time I played Deus Ex. You could do a huge number of things, and in talking to people they'd reveal things about themselves, other characters, and the world. The whole thing was way bigger an deeper than you'd think. You might talk to a bartender, and he'd ask you to steal drugs from the place down the street in exchange for cash. If you sneak in and look, you find the drugs hidden away, and there's a mini story about who has them and why. There are no waypoints or indicators anywhere - the world is simply there, and it's on you to explore.

Seriously, every time you post about Deus Ex...

I started the first on PS4, but the control and graphics were bad. I’m not doing it until I can play them on PC. Why a next gen remaster is not at 60fps is beyond me.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ the original on console was 30fps and the remaster DOES look much better.

But yeah, get an amped PC and play it. I don't care what you have to do, just do it. Then when you're done with Dishonored, Dishonored 2 improves on it SOOOOO much.

You bring up Deus Ex a lot, and it's not like the lead designer of Deus Ex stopped making games, he went on to make Dishonored and DIshonored 2, AND Prey (2017).

I am a busy man these days. Everybody doesn't have to keep telling me. They are on my list :-)

The only time I have really felt for a character in Destiny other an my guardian, because the main story did that for me in D2, is the one strike about the guardians who were getting captured and having the light sucked out of them by the Hive. That was a freaking good strike because I actually felt bad for those guardians. It was also the first time I felt like we were actually losing people. Even at the end of the D2 campaign, I felt like it was a struggle, but I never felt like anyone even died in that final stand.

And that strike I literally have never played to this day, because they are random and not integrated into the campaign progression.

Then you are really unlucky or you don't play enough strikes :P Because I've played that strike a lot. It's not like there are a ton of strike right now!

It seems obvious that the adventures and lost sectors were meant to be played as players made their way through the campaign.

Can you explain why this seems obvious to you?

And that strike I literally have never played to this day, because they are random and not integrated into the campaign progression.

It's the Nightfall every second or third week. Do you not do Nightfalls?

- No text -

It seems obvious that the adventures and lost sectors were meant to be played as players made their way through the campaign.

Can you explain why this seems obvious to you?

Because if you don't, you can't progress. You are too low level and the game literally tells you to level up more locking you out.

And that strike I literally have never played to this day, because they are random and not integrated into the campaign progression.

It's the Nightfall every second or third week. Do you not do Nightfalls?

No I don't. Remember? I played the game, did the raid, then stopped. I'm not going to do the nightfall every week hoping for a Hawkmoon. And if Bungie brings the Hawkmoon back as an exotic - well I'm just not sure.

Weekly nightfalls are a 'grind' for me that I can now avoid happily.

- No text -

It seems obvious that the adventures and lost sectors were meant to be played as players made their way through the campaign.

Can you explain why this seems obvious to you?

Because if you don't, you can't progress. You are too low level and the game literally tells you to level up more locking you out.

That's not completely true, though. Matchmaking unlocks very early, and strikes come in at some time (Can't remember what level.) You could hit the level requirements just playing matchmaking.

Even following your logic, you only have to play a few adventures or lost sectors, and not all of them. To me, that doesn't make it "seem obvious" that you're supposed to do them during the campaign.

I played the campaign and then went back and did all the Lost Sectors and Adventures afterwards. From what I've read online, it seems like a lot of people did that. So his claim that it seems obvious runs counter to my experience.

It seems obvious that the adventures and lost sectors were meant to be played as players made their way through the campaign.

Can you explain why this seems obvious to you?

Because if you don't, you can't progress. You are too low level and the game literally tells you to level up more locking you out.

That's not completely true, though. Matchmaking unlocks very early, and strikes come in at some time (Can't remember what level.) You could hit the level requirements just playing matchmaking.

Even following your logic, you only have to play a few adventures or lost sectors, and not all of them. To me, that doesn't make it "seem obvious" that you're supposed to do them during the campaign.

I played the campaign and then went back and did all the Lost Sectors and Adventures afterwards. From what I've read online, it seems like a lot of people did that. So his claim that it seems obvious runs counter to my experience.

I did some adventures, but I mostly did Public events because they happened so often. And public events give you a ton of experience at that level.

(Just kidding. Video games aren't movies; you can't play them if you're not awake. I DID find it funny this weekend, though, looking over at Kermit (who's been visiting) and seeing him sound asleep in his chair, with a controller in his hand. He's WAY more hardcore than me - I go to bed long before I get to that point.)

First, wait until you get to be my age, mister. Second, it's not my fault you west coasters don't start playing until after midnight. Third, like you say, Bungie has a habit of kicking you to orbit if you're not actually playing. Fourth, the jet lag is real.

(Just kidding. Video games aren't movies; you can't play them if you're not awake. I DID find it funny this weekend, though, looking over at Kermit (who's been visiting) and seeing him sound asleep in his chair, with a controller in his hand. He's WAY more hardcore than me - I go to bed long before I get to that point.)

First, wait until you get to be my age, mister. Second, it's not my fault you west coasters don't start playing until after midnight. Third, like you say, Bungie has a habit of kicking you to orbit if you're not actually playing. Fourth, the jet lag is real.

Your mistake was not denying it outright. I've already admitted publicly I forgot to take pictures. :(

(Just kidding. Video games aren't movies; you can't play them if you're not awake. I DID find it funny this weekend, though, looking over at Kermit (who's been visiting) and seeing him sound asleep in his chair, with a controller in his hand. He's WAY more hardcore than me - I go to bed long before I get to that point.)

First, wait until you get to be my age, mister. Second, it's not my fault you west coasters don't start playing until after midnight. Third, like you say, Bungie has a habit of kicking you to orbit if you're not actually playing. Fourth, the jet lag is real.

Your mistake was not denying it outright. I've already admitted publicly I forgot to take pictures. :(

Heh, those who know me know that falling asleep with a controller in my hand was just my way of making myself at home. :)

And I am home now, BTW.

Two things:

1. The recommended light level for them is appropriate for doing them as you go through the campaign.

2. They become essentially useless if you do them afterwards, in terms of progression. Even if if they still give you light level appropriate gear, they drop blues when the player has moved on to collecting purples. So even if you use them for infusion, it’s still doesn’t feel rewarding if your post-campaign. It makes it feel to me like Bungie expected folks to have done many of them by that point.

While she doesn't love the movie, she does derive enjoyment from TC's ridiculous armor. This armor:

HAS NO PANTS!

In some ways it might be viewed as progressive in that it is about as practical as traditional female video game armor.

Classic case of the internet distorting reality.

I'm really enjoying the campaign so far.

Yeah, I honestly don't know what people are complaining about.

I think what I was getting at the idea people have that "everyone" is complaining because four reviews aggregated poorly on meteoritic. But ditto for streamers.

Classic case of the internet distorting reality.

I'm really enjoying the campaign so far.

Yeah, I honestly don't know what people are complaining about.

I think what I was getting at the idea people have that "everyone" is complaining because four reviews aggregated poorly on meteoritic. But ditto for streamers.

We are at 16 reviews, and the score is 53.

I think in general, negative reviews are a decent indicator of a bad game, but positive reviews are not necessarily an indicator of a good game if that makes sense. Do you think Activision doesn't have a lot of sway over IGN, GamePro, Game Spot, etc? To review a game this poorly and risk having Activision's ads or review codes go away isn't something they would do without a reason.

Again, I would not in any way score this game a 50 myself. I'm sure the raid lair is a 100 and worth the cost all on its own. But they are picking up on legitimate shortcomings.

- No text -

While she doesn't love the movie, she does derive enjoyment from TC's ridiculous armor. This armor:

HAS NO PANTS!

In some ways it might be viewed as progressive in that it is about as practical as traditional female video game armor.

It has been a theme with him for quite some time...

Have you tried the nightfalls? I feel like Bungie did a better job this time around in that the Nightfall is fun and not quite so punishing. With a good fireteam it shouldn't be too bad and having to beat the clock prevents it from becoming a hide and shoot game. (Although you certainly can't be as aggressive as you might normally be if you're me.)

Two things:

1. The recommended light level for them is appropriate for doing them as you go through the campaign.

2. They become essentially useless if you do them afterwards, in terms of progression. Even if if they still give you light level appropriate gear, they drop blues when the player has moved on to collecting purples. So even if you use them for infusion, it’s still doesn’t feel rewarding if your post-campaign. It makes it feel to me like Bungie expected folks to have done many of them by that point.

OK, I understand where you're coming from, then.

I was thinking about Adventures as worth playing through for the additional story and lore, which is a different kind of reward.

Yeah, they’re totally different. I just tend to consider the 1985 film as one of the greatest works of fantasy cinema.

I get that the makeup and some scenes are beautiful, but...

“sunshine is my destroyer”

and

“There is only one lure for such disgusting goodness, one bait that never fails.”
“What be this bait? Please, you teach me.”
“Inn-o-cence. Inn-o-cence.”

And if you don’t think a powerful fae creature whose existence is literally based on darkness would be melodramatic. Scratch that, if you don’t think a fae creature would be melodramatic, I guess the fairytale oriented fantasy might just not be your flavor.

And if you don’t think a powerful fae creature whose existence is literally based on darkness would be melodramatic. Scratch that, if you don’t think a fae creature would be melodramatic, I guess the fairytale oriented fantasy might just not be your flavor.

We're veering dangerously close to no-true-Scotsman territory here. I've enjoyed a fairytale or two and have opinions and stuff... :-)

But, you're right, the lines fit for the character who is part of this bat-s*** crazy world. I just don't find that world well-written or compelling. Here's where I may get myself in trouble. I don't think the 80's knew what to do with the fantasy genre in general. It was like Joel Schumacher directing Batman and Robin. He wasn't a fan, but he was pretty sure he knew what fans liked about the genre so he went over-the-top and created a massive dumpster fire. He put stuff in that stereotypes of the fans would like, but not real humans. That's what I think happened with Legend.

Okay, perhaps that's unfair. Ridley clearly likes the genre and wanted to tell some sort of morality tale in it. But, I'm not sure there's anything worth exploring in there. Plus, TOM CRUISE'S ARMOR HAS NO PANTS.

Have you tried the nightfalls? I feel like Bungie did a better job this time around in that the Nightfall is fun and not quite so punishing. With a good fireteam it shouldn't be too bad and having to beat the clock prevents it from becoming a hide and shoot game. (Although you certainly can't be as aggressive as you might normally be if you're me.)

I think I did the first three weeks’.

But Schumacher also did Batman Forever, which in many regards is probably the best live action Batman film. I'll accept and even argue that various arguments that different live action Batman films have done certain things better. But as a total package in regard to the character of Batman, Bruce Wayne, and the comics? Anyway, I digress.

But, you're right, the lines fit for the character who is part of this bat-s*** crazy world. I just don't find that world well-written or compelling.

It is a fair consideration to make. In my personal tastes I consider understandably natural writing to be more compelling. Dream-logic world or not. Honestly, 80's fantasy is super polarizing, but I would have to say it is too far to suggest they didn't know what they were doing with it.

However, I would say that it was far from homogenized, as a lot of more modern fantasy has become, especially as you look at what has followed PJ's LotR trilogy. Not necessarily to the benefit of those which followed. I think that 80's Fantasy tended to hold much more striking identities for different stories.

Legend is a Fairytale Epic (in regard to the literary poetic) and as such is full of fairy weirdness. In contrast, Labyrinth which came out a year later follows a lot of similar implications of fae, but with a different setting. A lot of folks I knew grew up hating the former and loving the latter. Some of that likely has to do with the interconnect with a modern world in Labyrinth. I did grow up with Legend. Perhaps a lot of it is that. I also grew up with old faerie tales and stories about things in the forests.

Weirder 80's Fantasy that was deeply seated within my upbringing was The Dark Crystal. Often also compared to Labyrinth and often also hated by most of my friends who grew up with that movie. TDC is a truly alien world, though. But then you have more traditional Western Fantasy with things such as Ladyhawke or Willow. The Light Fantasy of The Princess Bride or the Low Fantasy of Conan: The Barbarian or the almost science-fantasy of Krull. Feel free to make fun of Krull, though.

I think comparing anything that is not explicitly a marketing gimmick to sell toys to Batman & Robin is unjustified. From what I'm aware of I'm not sure anyone had their heart in it. I would rather you compare Legend to something from the Troma Entertainment because at least you'd be making a comparison to something someone cared about making.

Okay, perhaps that's unfair. Ridley clearly likes the genre and wanted to tell some sort of morality tale in it. But, I'm not sure there's anything worth exploring in there.

And that is the sort of reasoning I'd say that maybe the sort of Fairytale focus Legend has is particular cup. But poor me a pint of the interpersonal dramas, traditions, and conflicts of other worldly creatures any day.

Plus, TOM CRUISE'S ARMOR HAS NO PANTS.

Magic armor requires no pants. Link didn't used to have pants.

It’s true. Batman Forever is legit the best Batman movie. Seriously.

Tell me doctor, do you like the circus?

It’s true. Batman Forever is legit the best Batman movie. Seriously.

Wait wut? I mean, I liked the album like everyone else, and this movie wasn't that bad but... I'll take Burton or Nolan's visions over that any day.

It’s true. Batman Forever is legit the best Batman movie. Seriously.

Wait wut? I mean, I liked the album like everyone else, and this movie wasn't that bad but... I'll take Burton or Nolan's visions over that any day.

The reason batman forever is great is because of Jim Carey and Tommy Lee Jones not because of batman or robin.

But Schumacher also did Batman Forever, which in many regards is probably the best live action Batman film. I'll accept and even argue that various arguments that different live action Batman films have done certain things better. But as a total package in regard to the character of Batman, Bruce Wayne, and the comics? Anyway, I digress.

This needs a stronger defense. I'm flabbergasted.

But, you're right, the lines fit for the character who is part of this bat-s*** crazy world. I just don't find that world well-written or compelling.

It is a fair consideration to make. In my personal tastes I consider understandably natural writing to be more compelling. Dream-logic world or not. Honestly, 80's fantasy is super polarizing, but I would have to say it is too far to suggest they didn't know what they were doing with it.

Fair. I was being a bit inflammatory in my posturing. :-)

However, I would say that it was far from homogenized, as a lot of more modern fantasy has become, especially as you look at what has followed PJ's LotR trilogy. Not necessarily to the benefit of those which followed. I think that 80's Fantasy tended to hold much more striking identities for different stories.

Agreed, although LotR was a great treatment of the genre when it first hit the screens- regardless of how you feel of his editorial decisions.

Legend is a Fairytale Epic (in regard to the literary poetic) and as such is full of fairy weirdness. In contrast, Labyrinth which came out a year later follows a lot of similar implications of fae, but with a different setting. A lot of folks I knew grew up hating the former and loving the latter. Some of that likely has to do with the interconnect with a modern world in Labyrinth. I did grow up with Legend. Perhaps a lot of it is that. I also grew up with old faerie tales and stories about things in the forests.

Weirder 80's Fantasy that was deeply seated within my upbringing was The Dark Crystal. Often also compared to Labyrinth and often also hated by most of my friends who grew up with that movie. TDC is a truly alien world, though. But then you have more traditional Western Fantasy with things such as Ladyhawke or Willow. The Light Fantasy of The Princess Bride or the Low Fantasy of Conan: The Barbarian or the almost science-fantasy of Krull. Feel free to make fun of Krull, though.

I'm now interested in the Dark Crystal. I admit that my exposure to 80's fantasy may be limited. I've only seen Ladyhawke, Willow, The Neverending Story, Legend, and a bunch of cable tv reruns in the 90's I can't remember. I can pass on all of the above. Princess Bride was super light and I'm not sure it fits the genre but I did enjoy it.

I think comparing anything that is not explicitly a marketing gimmick to sell toys to Batman & Robin is unjustified. From what I'm aware of I'm not sure anyone had their heart in it. I would rather you compare Legend to something from the Troma Entertainment because at least you'd be making a comparison to something someone cared about making.

Fair, although I'm not sure Tom Cruise's heart was in Legend judging by the acting.

Okay, perhaps that's unfair. Ridley clearly likes the genre and wanted to tell some sort of morality tale in it. But, I'm not sure there's anything worth exploring in there.

And that is the sort of reasoning I'd say that maybe the sort of Fairytale focus Legend has is particular cup. But poor me a pint of the interpersonal dramas, traditions, and conflicts of other worldly creatures any day.

Plus, TOM CRUISE'S ARMOR HAS NO PANTS.

Magic armor requires no pants. Link didn't used to have pants.

Link wasn't wearing armor. I don't critique TC's opening outfit because it isn't supposed to be armor. Once he dons the mini-dress of protection though...

It’s true. Batman Forever is legit the best Batman movie. Seriously.

Wait wut? I mean, I liked the album like everyone else, and this movie wasn't that bad but... I'll take Burton or Nolan's visions over that any day.

The reason batman forever is great is because of Jim Carey and Tommy Lee Jones not because of batman or robin.

Nicole Kidman deserves as much credit as the villains too.

It’s true. Batman Forever is legit the best Batman movie. Seriously.

Wait wut? I mean, I liked the album like everyone else, and this movie wasn't that bad but... I'll take Burton or Nolan's visions over that any day.

The reason batman forever is great is because of Jim Carey and Tommy Lee Jones not because of batman or robin.

Nicole Kidman deserves as much credit as the villains too.

True. Which means we can't forget Drew Barrymore!

It’s true. Batman Forever is legit the best Batman movie. Seriously.

Wait wut? I mean, I liked the album like everyone else, and this movie wasn't that bad but... I'll take Burton or Nolan's visions over that any day.

The reason batman forever is great is because of Jim Carey and Tommy Lee Jones not because of batman or robin.

It’s true. Batman Forever is legit the best Batman movie. Seriously.

Wait wut? I mean, I liked the album like everyone else, and this movie wasn't that bad but... I'll take Burton or Nolan's visions over that any day.

The reason batman forever is great is because of Jim Carey and Tommy Lee Jones not because of batman or robin.

Ummm, Yes?

This needs a stronger defense. I'm flabbergasted.

So, preface: Batman Hush is the best Batman comic. Most people don’t understand (or remember the important parts of) The Killing Joke. LEGO Batman is the most important Batman movie of all of them.

Now that I hbe that out of the way, here is a more elaborate explanation as to why Batman Forever is the best Live Action Batman film. Starting with notable pitfalls of Burton and Nolan Batman outings. Batman spoilers ahead?

Obviously for being childrens stories about a man with childhood PTSD growing up to dress up as a bat and pummel criminals and the criminally insane you have some very strange balancing acts to account for. In the same way that many people do not understand Superman as a character (Tarantino understands the character about as well as modern DC does, though Snyder actually gets pretty close) who Batman is gets frequently confused. A big part of that is Robin, and in a larger respect, the whole Batfamily. In many ways Burton gets the Cowl right (while wrong in others) in the same way that Nolan gets Bruce Wayne right (Christian Bale is always a convincing rich [explitive]) but wrong in others. Neither of them have the Batfamily, for one. Keatonbat over-emphasizes the crazy man who beats up criminals, and Nolan basically forgets that Batman is powerful because he is observant. Batman is powerful because he is prepared. Because he has done his research. He wins in a fight against Clark because he has already done the leg work a hundred times over. There is a reason he has a counter to every member of the JL going rogue except Diana. Because really unless you go Golden Age at which case her weakness is light bondage.

Now, the best parts of Batman stories aren’t him or the Batfamily. It is the Rogues Gallery. Now, while I would love to see Arkham Asylum: A serious House on a Serious Earth translated to film, I don’t think we’ll ever get that. So we have to consider the incarnations we do get on screen. Jack Nicholson dressed as a Gamgster Clown does not The Joker make. And I adore Ledger’s performance, but that is not The Joker, more of an Elseworlds incarnation. Great, but tangential. Catwoman is handled better by Nolan, so he gets points there, and Scarecrow is pretty much great theough the whole of TDK trilogy. However, Ra’s and the League of Shadows is wasted in a mundane setting. The Lazarus Pit prison is interesting, but feels like a cop out. Bane in TDKR is so high above his treatment in B&R, but making him a puppet is about as good for the character as Iron Man 3’s Mandarin hook. I might even say worse.

Now, The common “Batman doesn’t kill” thing comes up. Even though he does so in many incarnations, usually out of necessity. In this regard I am only going to touch on Batman Forever. So, back to the Batfamily and Rogues Gallery. Other than some costume choices, both Tommy Lee Jones and Jim Carrey actually find the characters they are playing. A perpetually conflicted fallen knight who resorts to chance to settle his internal conflicts between his inclinations. This is a factor used in the climax the allow Batman to save Robin from his own “one bad day.” He planned ahead for it, and called it out to ensure it would happen because of his knowledge of Dent. And The Riddler? He needs to be better than Batman, but moreover he needs Batman to know he is better. That is his central character thread which is explored in various ways through various media. But Jim Carrey captures. Bottles it and sells it.

This is not as well organized as I probably would like it to be. But here is the tl;dr - Batman Forever has the most “Batman” to it, while the other incarnations feel like alternate universes at best and often fail to capture essential aspects of the characters for the sake of presenting something different instead of as an exploration thereof. /babbling

Agreed, although LotR was a great treatment of the genre when it first hit the screens- regardless of how you feel of his editorial decisions.

I greatly appreciate what PJ did for LotR. I acknowledge the books influence, but think they are overrated tremendously compared to their quality as literature. The Hobbit is the only thing Tolkien wrote that has value as prose.

I'm now interested in the Dark Crystal. I admit that my exposure to 80's fantasy may be limited. I've only seen Ladyhawke, Willow, The Neverending Story, Legend, and a bunch of cable tv reruns in the 90's I can't remember. I can pass on all of the above. Princess Bride was super light and I'm not sure it fits the genre but I did enjoy it.

The Dark Crystal is unique in many ways, and there is a Netflix prequel in the works. It is definitely worth seeing, if for no other reason than seeing one of the greatest works of Jim Henson and Frank Oz. Princess Bride is light but includes monsters (shreiking eels, ROUS) magic/technology (Miracle Max, The Machine in the Pit of Despair) and Fantasy locations (The Cliffs of Insanity, Fire Swamp) which is why i call it Light Fantasy. All of the fantasy stuff it simple excuses to move the story forward.

Fair, although I'm not sure Tom Cruise's heart was in Legend judging by the acting.

I would blame that more on a combination of youth and that he was playing a forest hermit. I find the performance fitting, and for what it is I don’t think it is any worse than any of his performances contemporary to it. Admittedly I have seen those less recently.

Link wasn't wearing armor. I don't critique TC's opening outfit because it isn't supposed to be armor. Once he dons the mini-dress of protection though...

Circa A Link to the Past the Blue and Red tunics function explicitly as armor and do not grant Link pants.

This needs a stronger defense. I'm flabbergasted.

So, preface: Batman Hush is the best Batman comic. Most people don’t understand (or remember the important parts of) The Killing Joke. LEGO Batman is the most important Batman movie of all of them.

Now that I hbe that out of the way, here is a more elaborate explanation as to why Batman Forever is the best Live Action Batman film. Starting with notable pitfalls of Burton and Nolan Batman outings. Batman spoilers ahead?

Obviously for being childrens stories about a man with childhood PTSD growing up to dress up as a bat and pummel criminals and the criminally insane you have some very strange balancing acts to account for. In the same way that many people do not understand Superman as a character (Tarantino understands the character about as well as modern DC does, though Snyder actually gets pretty close) who Batman is gets frequently confused. A big part of that is Robin, and in a larger respect, the whole Batfamily. In many ways Burton gets the Cowl right (while wrong in others) in the same way that Nolan gets Bruce Wayne right (Christian Bale is always a convincing rich [explitive]) but wrong in others. Neither of them have the Batfamily, for one. Keatonbat over-emphasizes the crazy man who beats up criminals, and Nolan basically forgets that Batman is powerful because he is observant. Batman is powerful because he is prepared. Because he has done his research. He wins in a fight against Clark because he has already done the leg work a hundred times over. There is a reason he has a counter to every member of the JL going rogue except Diana. Because really unless you go Golden Age at which case her weakness is light bondage.

Now, the best parts of Batman stories aren’t him or the Batfamily. It is the Rogues Gallery. Now, while I would love to see Arkham Asylum: A serious House on a Serious Earth translated to film, I don’t think we’ll ever get that. So we have to consider the incarnations we do get on screen. Jack Nicholson dressed as a Gamgster Clown does not The Joker make. And I adore Ledger’s performance, but that is not The Joker, more of an Elseworlds incarnation. Great, but tangential. Catwoman is handled better by Nolan, so he gets points there, and Scarecrow is pretty much great theough the whole of TDK trilogy. However, Ra’s and the League of Shadows is wasted in a mundane setting. The Lazarus Pit prison is interesting, but feels like a cop out. Bane in TDKR is so high above his treatment in B&R, but making him a puppet is about as good for the character as Iron Man 3’s Mandarin hook. I might even say worse.

Now, The common “Batman doesn’t kill” thing comes up. Even though he does so in many incarnations, usually out of necessity. In this regard I am only going to touch on Batman Forever. So, back to the Batfamily and Rogues Gallery. Other than some costume choices, both Tommy Lee Jones and Jim Carrey actually find the characters they are playing. A perpetually conflicted fallen knight who resorts to chance to settle his internal conflicts between his inclinations. This is a factor used in the climax the allow Batman to save Robin from his own “one bad day.” He planned ahead for it, and called it out to ensure it would happen because of his knowledge of Dent. And The Riddler? He needs to be better than Batman, but moreover he needs Batman to know he is better. That is his central character thread which is explored in various ways through various media. But Jim Carrey captures. Bottles it and sells it.

This is not as well organized as I probably would like it to be. But here is the tl;dr - Batman Forever has the most “Batman” to it, while the other incarnations feel like alternate universes at best and often fail to capture essential aspects of the characters for the sake of presenting something different instead of as an exploration thereof. /babbling

This is well thought out and I can see why you value this entry. I think that I approach comic movies from a different angle. To me, they are like american folk-myths, more akin with the oral myths of ancient Greece. As such, each orator will have their own take or riff on the story and legend. Being true to the character of a source (and lets be honest, Batman has had many iterations even within the printed comic world) is not as big of a consideration for me as telling an interesting story with internal consistency using those character archetypes. Given that bias, it may be true that Batman Forever nails the comic-Batman element, but I think it delivers a story that is less interesting to me. Certainly not bad like B&R but not really good either. Burton's take on the Joker makes Batman who makes Joker story was more interesting to me. The neo-gothic textures and the aesthetics also worked for me far more than Batman Forever. Nolan's attempts to ground Batman in a more realistic world also felt like an interesting take as the medium shifted from comic to movie. It had significant problems, but I just find Batman Forever too campy in comparison. All that being said, I can appreciate your appreciation.

Link wasn't wearing armor. I don't critique TC's opening outfit because it isn't supposed to be armor. Once he dons the mini-dress of protection though...

Circa A Link to the Past the Blue and Red tunics function explicitly as armor and do not grant Link pants.

Well played. It still looks like cloth to me, but I guess you can have your magical pantsless fae armor.

Yeah. That’s why I originally emphasized the Batman side of it. Don’t get me wrong, my reference to Elseworlds is not a slight. The best Superman comic is an Elseworlds story. If you have not read Superman: Red Son, from what you say here, I think you would probably get a kick out of it.

In so far as movies go i think Batman Begins, as a film, is probably what I would consider strongest from a technical standpoint. I like a lot of things for a lot of reasons.

Well played. It still looks like cloth to me, but I guess you can have your magical pantsless fae armor.

Thank you, I will definitely take the magical pantsless fae armor.