Star Wars: The Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

Just saw... well... you know. I'm making this thread now because... it's STAR WARS. There will be discussion. This is the Spoiler thread. That means [spoiler]this[/spoiler]. Which looks like this. Dare not go any farther than this root post if you care about spoilers. In fact, it's probably best you just turn off the internet now, as I already have a few guesses on what is going to be turned into .gifs from bootleg recordings and posted erroneously everywhere.

Don't forget that in the sea of grey bars, you can disable them all if you are in the whole thread view, click the "Show spoilers* check box. It's next to the "Linear" & "Fold/expand" options.

Ok. That's enough of that. Let's TALK UNABATED ABOUT Star Wars: The Last Jedi!

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Nothing to say other than this was the best goddamn Star Wars experience I've ever had.

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It was really good. The audience was super into it.

I saw it by myself and I've got to tell someone this. At the end, when Finn was getting a blanket out of the drawer to cover up Rose, did you see what else was in the drawer? It was the Jedi books. Rey must have taken them before she left.

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Yes. Sneaky sneaky hobbitses :)

Also, the kid in the end, he totally Force-Pull'ed that broom, didn't he?

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Definitely.

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I could have done with a little less casino/breakout scene. But other than that it was perfect.

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[image]

My response to this movie was the same as the last one (Star Wars: Episode VII – The Force Awakens). While there were moments where I felt a genuine thrill such as the Millennium Falcon doing the too close for comfort thing, over all I left the theater as I did last time. With a large MEH! That's not to say it's a bad movie, just that I can't simply ignore how much the orange juice and toothpaste do not mix. I don't know if it's because Disney wants to keep some mystery and loose ends, so they can sell more of their crap. I don't know if it's because the writers are too into cliche tropes, thus I rarely found my self surprised. I don't even know if it's because... I don't know.

What I do know is this. I was surprised by Leia. I thought she died, and she didn't. I find my self asking now, was my reaction because I was expecting an edit out, or the raw scene as is? That what did Skywalker in was the fear of failure as a teacher. All this pressure as "THE JEDI" meant he couldn't appreciate what was in front of him. That Rey isn't some fancy big shot bloodline, but no different then the kid with a broom. And that... is about it at the moment.

Snoke? Well unless they pull some sort of Palpatine Clone or Exar Kun force ghost shenanigans, well fuck all on that mystery. WHO THE 'ELL WAS THIS GUY! YOU DON'T KNOW! Generic Space wizard #1338 apparently. Captain Phasma is still a walking talking joke, but to the movies credit, at least there was more than a cameo this time. She still basically exists purely to look cool on posters, or at least "did"... and that's about it. You could switch her with "generic stormtrooper" and get the same depth. Then there is Kylo Ren. Ugh - THIS MUTHA FUKA! I have yet to find the full words, so I'll just give a quick burst of thoughts. WHAT DOES THIS CHARACTER WANT! HOW DID HE GET TO THIS POINT? Oh "but I could tell Snoke got to him first" - HOW!?!?!? Oh you mean that Dead guy! UGH! He exists as a mad plot tool. The emo teen that wants to just let the world die. At first I thought they were going to take the Kreia angle, and hate on the force. Nope! Just Kill everything and THEN RULE! Ugh. It was going so well, and they killed it. They went FULL RETARD! And with Rey. With Rey... I don't even know what to think with Rey yet. Luke too. Just ...eh.

I just don't yet know all the words. I literately facepalmed with the kiss by Rose Tico. I mean I know it's a Disney Movie but... UGH.

All in all, while I like the ideas, it just was put together like... I don't know. It's just not Starwars. It's fan service, less so then last time, but still. You know what I'd like to see? A Marvel Starwars. At least with those characters you have that why. That purpose. An understanding instead of more questions. If you liked this Star Wars, then you probably liked the Destiny 2 Story.

Originally I wasn't going to see this movie in theaters, due to what I saw and did not see last time. The only reason I even bothered to see it opening day at all, was because a number of early early reviews said "Best Star Wars since Empire Strikes Back". I sit here now thinking that these reviewers don't know why Empire Strike back is so revered, because there was little of it in this movie.

With that all said, I'm still digesting this movie. So expect more, and I know it won't just be from me.

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Snoke? Well unless they pull some sort of Palpatine Clone or Exar Kun force ghost shenanigans, well fuck all on that mystery. WHO THE 'ELL WAS THIS GUY! YOU DON'T KNOW! Generic Space wizard #1338 apparently. Captain Phasma is still a walking talking joke, but to the movies credit, at least there was more than a cameo this time. She still basically exists purely to look cool on posters, or at least "did"... and that's about it. You could switch her with "generic stormtrooper" and get the same depth. Then there is Kylo Ren. Ugh - THIS MUTHA FUKA! I have yet to find the full words, so I'll just give a quick burst of thoughts. WHAT DOES THIS CHARACTER WANT! HOW DID HE GET TO THIS POINT? Oh "but I could tell Snoke got to him first" - HOW!?!?!? Oh you mean that Dead guy! UGH! He exists as a mad plot tool. The emo teen that wants to just let the world die. At first I thought they were going to take the Kreia angle, and hate on the force. Nope! Just Kill everything and THEN RULE! Ugh. It was going so well, and they killed it. They went FULL RETARD! And with Rey. With Rey... I don't even know what to think with Rey yet. Luke too. Just ...eh.

For me, Snoke = Palpatine in the Original Trilogy. While I never got to watch them as they released (wasnt born) You didnt really know who Palpatine was until the Prequels were released unless you read material outside of the movie. I am going to go out on a limb and say this is a perfect set up for another "prequel" trilogy. Not that I hope that happens, just seem to be SO many near shot for shot scenes.

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Snoke? Well unless they pull some sort of Palpatine Clone or Exar Kun force ghost shenanigans, well fuck all on that mystery. WHO THE 'ELL WAS THIS GUY! YOU DON'T KNOW! Generic Space wizard #1338 apparently. Captain Phasma is still a walking talking joke, but to the movies credit, at least there was more than a cameo this time. She still basically exists purely to look cool on posters, or at least "did"... and that's about it. You could switch her with "generic stormtrooper" and get the same depth. Then there is Kylo Ren. Ugh - THIS MUTHA FUKA! I have yet to find the full words, so I'll just give a quick burst of thoughts. WHAT DOES THIS CHARACTER WANT! HOW DID HE GET TO THIS POINT? Oh "but I could tell Snoke got to him first" - HOW!?!?!? Oh you mean that Dead guy! UGH! He exists as a mad plot tool. The emo teen that wants to just let the world die. At first I thought they were going to take the Kreia angle, and hate on the force. Nope! Just Kill everything and THEN RULE! Ugh. It was going so well, and they killed it. They went FULL RETARD! And with Rey. With Rey... I don't even know what to think with Rey yet. Luke too. Just ...eh.

For me, Snoke = Palpatine in the Original Trilogy. While I never got to watch them as they released (wasnt born) You didnt really know who Palpatine was until the Prequels were released unless you read material outside of the movie. I am going to go out on a limb and say this is a perfect set up for another "prequel" trilogy. Not that I hope that happens, just seem to be SO many near shot for shot scenes.

No idea about a movie about Snoke. I don't really care about it. What I like so much about where they went with this one is now we finally have a villain that's not just a far-away bad guy. We've seen Kylo struggle and evolve in his convictions, he's a much more interesting character than Snoke. And I'm excited to have him be an unhinged leader of a collapsing force in 9.

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For me, Snoke = Palpatine in the Original Trilogy. ... You didnt really know who Palpatine was until the Prequels were released unless you read material outside of the movie.

Yep. Seen that excuse (? Too Strong) get touted around the net too. (Unrelated note; This film seems to of had a rather polarizing effect, where it's absolutely loved or otherwise.) The difference between Palpatine and Snoke is... well... timing. In so many words, the Original trilogy was free to... whatever. Palpatine could be the big bad boss and nothing more, and it was good. Snoke on the other hand has the original trilogy to contend with.

At the ending of Return of the Jedi, Vader/Luke has brought balance to the force. Yet - Oh wait. Snoke. Well gee wiz. Does this really need an explanation why this little hiccup is such a big deal? That gaping hole that now exists - in CANNON. It's horribly unsatisfying.

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At the ending of Return of the Jedi, Vader/Luke has brought balance to the force. Yet - Oh wait. Snoke. Well gee wiz. Does this really need an explanation why this little hiccup is such a big deal? That gaping hole that now exists - in CANNON. It's horribly unsatisfying.

I could have used a little more Snoke backstory, maybe through Leia or Luke. But I like the mystery. I don't want/need everything explained.

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At the ending of Return of the Jedi, Vader/Luke has brought balance to the force. Yet - Oh wait. Snoke. Well gee wiz. Does this really need an explanation why this little hiccup is such a big deal? That gaping hole that now exists - in CANNON. It's horribly unsatisfying.

I could have used a little more Snoke backstory, maybe through Leia or Luke. But I like the mystery. I don't want/need everything explained.

There needs to be some for there to be more.

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At the ending of Return of the Jedi, Vader/Luke has brought balance to the force. Yet - Oh wait. Snoke. Well gee wiz. Does this really need an explanation why this little hiccup is such a big deal? That gaping hole that now exists - in CANNON. It's horribly unsatisfying.

I could have used a little more Snoke backstory, maybe through Leia or Luke. But I like the mystery. I don't want/need everything explained.

The thing is, Snoke’s backstory is ultimately unimportant. It’s irrelevant to the story being told here, to the actions and decisions of the main characters. It’d be cool to know, sure, but ultimately it would just add clutter and distraction. Comparisons to the lack of backstory around Palpatine are appropriate. The details of Palpatine’s rise to power had no impact or significance on the dilemma facing Luke at the end of RotJ. Snoke’s backstory is equally irrelevant to Rey and Kylo’s relationship in TLJ.

As far as the “Balance to the force” issue, there are a few problems with citing that profecy as reason for needing backstory on Snoke.

A) Who ever said the profecy was true?

B) “Balance” means exactly that... BALANCE. There is always light and dark in the world. Order and chaos. Too much chaos will rip civilization apart. Too much order will suffocate and weaken it to the point where it cannot properly protect or sustain itself. During the time of the OT, the forces of order and chaos (ie light and dark) were not balanced. The empire had pushed away the light to the point where darkness dominated the galaxy. Killing the Emporor was not an act that could remove all evil from the galaxy... but it helped tip the scales back towards a state of Balance.

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The thing is, Snoke’s backstory is ultimately unimportant. It’s irrelevant to the story being told here, to the actions and decisions of the main characters. It’d be cool to know, sure, but ultimately it would just add clutter and distraction. Comparisons to the lack of backstory around Palpatine are appropriate. The details of Palpatine’s rise to power had no impact or significance on the dilemma facing Luke at the end of RotJ. Snoke’s backstory is equally irrelevant to Rey and Kylo’s relationship in TLJ.

Ultimately I agree (see my prior post about me loving how this sets up a much more interesting villain in Kylo). I'm just saying we never got a reason to fear Snoke. Everyone seems to be scared of him, but even Hux is more intimidating in my mind.

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The thing is, Snoke’s backstory is ultimately unimportant. It’s irrelevant to the story being told here, to the actions and decisions of the main characters. It’d be cool to know, sure, but ultimately it would just add clutter and distraction. Comparisons to the lack of backstory around Palpatine are appropriate. The details of Palpatine’s rise to power had no impact or significance on the dilemma facing Luke at the end of RotJ. Snoke’s backstory is equally irrelevant to Rey and Kylo’s relationship in TLJ.

Ultimately I agree (see my prior post about me loving how this sets up a much more interesting villain in Kylo). I'm just saying we never got a reason to fear Snoke. Everyone seems to be scared of him, but even Hux is more intimidating in my mind.

I think you might be ignoring his Force prowess. We didn't get to see much of it but he was clearly very powerful. He just (somehow) managed to get blindsided (bamboozled!) by Kylo. That's the more questionable aspect, in my opinion.

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I'm just saying we never got a reason to fear Snoke. Everyone seems to be scared of him, but even Hux is more intimidating in my mind.

Wow, I didn't get that at all. Snoke just toyed around with Rey like a cat with a mouse, basically letting her make attempts then swatting her down. Rey's power was already demonstrated while she was fighting Ben in the last movie. Ben/Kylo was only able to defeat Snoke through a trick; Snoke could clearly read much of Ben/Kylo's mind but not 100%.

Later we see Kylo force-slam Hux against the wall, seemingly without even trying. Hux's power is purely hierarchical. If he didn't have soldiers under his command, he would not have power at all.

In other words, it was clearly demonstrated to me that Snoke > Rey >= Kylo > Hux.

I totally agree with you that Kylo is now set up to be an incredibly interesting villian.

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I'm just saying we never got a reason to fear Snoke. Everyone seems to be scared of him, but even Hux is more intimidating in my mind.

Wow, I didn't get that at all. Snoke just toyed around with Rey like a cat with a mouse, basically letting her make attempts then swatting her down. Rey's power was already demonstrated while she was fighting Ben in the last movie. Ben/Kylo was only able to defeat Snoke through a trick; Snoke could clearly read much of Ben/Kylo's mind but not 100%.

Later we see Kylo force-slam Hux against the wall, seemingly without even trying. Hux's power is purely hierarchical. If he didn't have soldiers under his command, he would not have power at all.

In other words, it was clearly demonstrated to me that Snoke > Rey >= Kylo > Hux.

I totally agree with you that Kylo is now set up to be an incredibly interesting villain.

I’ll conceed to that in a sense. We see Snoke’s power demonstrated and it’s frightening to us/Rey. But how he’s know in the universe as Leader of the First Order is unknown to the audience. Why is Leia and the resistance so afraid of him after defeating Palestine?

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Via the official Last Jedi Visual Dictionary:

“Snoke is powerful in the dark side of the force, but he is no sith. That thousand year lineage stretching from Darth bane to the last Sith Lord, Darth Vader, was undone when Vader died destroying his mentor, Darth Sidious. The fulfillment of an ancient prophecy foretold the end of the sith, but it never predicted the end of darkness “

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Via the official Last Jedi Visual Dictionary:

“Snoke is powerful in the dark side of the force, but he is no sith. That thousand year lineage stretching from Darth bane to the last Sith Lord, Darth Vader, was undone when Vader died destroying his mentor, Darth Sidious. The fulfillment of an ancient prophecy foretold the end of the sith, but it never predicted the end of darkness “

Ya don't say. Too bad it's all moot.

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At the ending of Return of the Jedi, Vader/Luke has brought balance to the force. Yet - Oh wait. Snoke. Well gee wiz. Does this really need an explanation why this little hiccup is such a big deal? That gaping hole that now exists - in CANNON. It's horribly unsatisfying.

What gaping hole? Balance. If there is good there is evil. I mean, you can say that's dumb (I know I sure did during the prequels. Why do you want to "bring balance to the force" if you are at the height of your power?) but it's always been the word they use and they lay it out even more explicitly in this latest film.

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It's just not Starwars

That's literally what people said about ESB when it came out. This movie is definitely Star Wars. On a thematic level, it's completely true to the Saga, and a much needed correction from Force Awakens.

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It's just not Starwars

That's literally what people said about ESB when it came out. This movie is definitely Star Wars. On a thematic level, it's completely true to the Saga, and a much needed correction from Force Awakens.

I agree the elements are there, but it's more then that. It's about how it is all put together. I've never done a fan edit before, but I just might give it a try with this movie.

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It's just not Starwars

That's literally what people said about ESB when it came out. This movie is definitely Star Wars. On a thematic level, it's completely true to the Saga, and a much needed correction from Force Awakens.

I agree the elements are there, but it's more then that. It's about how it is all put together. I've never done a fan edit before, but I just might give it a try with this movie.

I'm curious. Can you elaborate on that? I honestly don't think a fan edit can make this film better in any significant way in terms of larger dramatic structure.

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It's just not Starwars

That's literally what people said about ESB when it came out. This movie is definitely Star Wars. On a thematic level, it's completely true to the Saga, and a much needed correction from Force Awakens.

I agree the elements are there, but it's more then that. It's about how it is all put together. I've never done a fan edit before, but I just might give it a try with this movie.

I'm curious. Can you elaborate on that? I honestly don't think a fan edit can make this film better in any significant way in terms of larger dramatic structure.

I'm not sure I can adequately, but I'll give it a shot. So... it's well established at this point that the structure of Starwars is the classic heroes journey. Thus it needs to be abundantly clear to the audience the W's (and how) of a before and after of the journey. While there is forgiveness in this, if there is not a direct focus on those aspects, and they are glazed over as some sort of side effect, then the Starwars story becomes watered down.

In this one, it felt particularly watered down, but not because necessarily it lacked the hero's journey, but because it rarely seemed to focus on it. This movie seems too into its blatant attempts of "Oh-Ha-HA! Got Cha!", and as a result the feel of the whole is disjointed. Yet I don't know if it's the edit or what, and thus I'm curious how it would feel if I edited it to minimize this effect, which ONLY TRULY WORKS ONCE, if it would improve how this movie feels to me.

- But wait there's more! -

You recently in this thread mentioned to Vortech that his thoughts on the the lack of character development are wrong, and that may be. But, if the story did it's job right, the STARWARS story, it wouldn't have been so easy to make such a conclusion. There should not be that grey. Again, I attribute that to the edit.

It feels like they should have cut short the Rose/Poe Storyline, which I should add seems to be an almost universal agreement among fan reviews, and elaborated more on what happened at Lukes School. We see only the results and why, but not how it got to such a point. Endings only earn their payoff, it is not given. Even then with what if given, the way it was presented felt muddy to me. Of course... I couldn't completely do it proper and fix it all with an edit. The little I could to would require to get clever and use footage from The Force Awakens, the relevant deleted scene(s) if any and have some voice in the background. If only they chose to take the time and SHOW not TELL. THAT should have been a MAIN story point. It's SO frustrating that the Director or whoever said "Let's focus on this new Rose character suddenly falling in love with Poe during a mostly pointless adventure and not LUKE SKYWALKER AND BEN SOLO! No one want's to hear THAT story and we hate money."

GAAAA!!!!

...I digress...

I've seen alot of talk about how the movie was better in the second viewing, and so, maybe it'll take another viewing for me to really flesh-out my middling reservations about this movie. And yet.

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I'm not sure I can adequately, but I'll give it a shot. So... it's well established at this point that the structure of Starwars is the classic heroes journey. Thus it needs to be abundantly clear to the audience the W's (and how) of a before and after of the journey. While there is forgiveness in this, if there is not a direct focus on those aspects, and they are glazed over as some sort of side effect, then the Starwars story becomes watered down.

In this one, it felt particularly watered down, but not because necessarily it lacked the hero's journey, but because it rarely seemed to focus on it. This movie seems too into its blatant attempts of "Oh-Ha-HA! Got Cha!", and as a result the feel of the whole is disjointed. Yet I don't know if it's the edit or what, and thus I'm curious how it would feel if I edited it to minimize this effect, which ONLY TRULY WORKS ONCE, if it would improve how this movie feels to me.

The hero's journey is both not precisely defined, but also not the only way to tell stories. Who says Star Wars has to be that? I think this is the baggage that you are taking in to the experience. Not everything has to fit this mold that you lay down. Dude, Star Wars itself didn't fit the true hero's journey mold. Luke "refused the call" for all of 20 seconds of screen time.

The hero's journey is not a blueprint - it's just a simplification of dramatic structures that have been working in story since antiquity.

I think the film makes the before and after crystal clear for each character. The entire theme of the movie is contingent upon the notion that "Heroes" and "Legends" are misguided concepts. That a rebellion is built on normal folks. That the force is in everything. The fact that it's not a Hero's Journey is 100% the whole point of the film. Forget the past. Let it die. But move forward!

It feels like they should have cut short the Rose/Poe Storyline, which I should add seems to be an almost universal agreement among fan reviews, and elaborated more on what happened at Lukes School. We see only the results and why, but not how it got to such a point. Endings only earn their payoff, it is not given. Even then with what if given, the way it was presented felt muddy to me. Of course... I couldn't completely do it proper and fix it all with an edit. The little I could to would require to get clever and use footage from The Force Awakens, the relevant deleted scene(s) if any and have some voice in the background. If only they chose to take the time and SHOW not TELL. THAT should have been a MAIN story point. It's SO frustrating that the Director or whoever said "Let's focus on this new Rose character suddenly falling in love with Poe during a mostly pointless adventure and not LUKE SKYWALKER AND BEN SOLO! No one want's to hear THAT story and we hate money."

I'm not saying that subplot was handled perfectly, but it absolutely fits into the theme. The tweet I replied to Vortech with is so true. And the subplot shows you the nameless 'nobody's' that are casualties of this war, who have within them the goodness to make the world better. It's not just about Heroes! It's about us all. Working together.

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I'm not sure I can adequately, but I'll give it a shot. So... it's well established at this point that the structure of Starwars is the classic heroes journey. Thus it needs to be abundantly clear to the audience the W's (and how) of a before and after of the journey. While there is forgiveness in this, if there is not a direct focus on those aspects, and they are glazed over as some sort of side effect, then the Starwars story becomes watered down.

In this one, it felt particularly watered down, but not because necessarily it lacked the hero's journey, but because it rarely seemed to focus on it. This movie seems too into its blatant attempts of "Oh-Ha-HA! Got Cha!", and as a result the feel of the whole is disjointed. Yet I don't know if it's the edit or what, and thus I'm curious how it would feel if I edited it to minimize this effect, which ONLY TRULY WORKS ONCE, if it would improve how this movie feels to me.

The hero's journey is both not precisely defined, but also not the only way to tell stories. Of course. Who says Star Wars has to be that? What is a Star Wars Story? Start at the root. I think this is the baggage that you are taking in to the experience. Not everything has to fit this mold that you lay down. Dude, Star Wars itself didn't fit the true hero's journey mold. Luke "refused the call" for all of 20 seconds of screen time.

First few comments in Blue. After that, alot of singled out "YOU", which honestly I'm not sure how you concluded I have such an iron hand. I'm still figuring out all this too.

The hero's journey is not a blueprint - it's just a simplification of dramatic structures that have been working in story since antiquity.

I think the film makes the before and after crystal clear for each character. The entire theme of the movie is contingent upon the notion that "Heroes" and "Legends" are misguided concepts. That a rebellion is built on normal folks. That the force is in everything. The fact that it's not a Hero's Journey is 100% the whole point of the film. Forget the past. Let it die. But move forward!

Yep. Look, the intent of the message isn't lost, obviously. I just sit here wishing the movie did a better job with what it had. If only it had that "one more pass" with the script.

It feels like they should have cut short the Rose/Poe Storyline, which I should add seems to be an almost universal agreement among fan reviews, and elaborated more on what happened at Lukes School. We see only the results and why, but not how it got to such a point. Endings only earn their payoff, it is not given. Even then with what if given, the way it was presented felt muddy to me. Of course... I couldn't completely do it proper and fix it all with an edit. The little I could to would require to get clever and use footage from The Force Awakens, the relevant deleted scene(s) if any and have some voice in the background. If only they chose to take the time and SHOW not TELL. THAT should have been a MAIN story point. It's SO frustrating that the Director or whoever said "Let's focus on this new Rose character suddenly falling in love with Poe during a mostly pointless adventure and not LUKE SKYWALKER AND BEN SOLO! No one want's to hear THAT story and we hate money."

I'm not saying that subplot was handled perfectly, but it absolutely fits into the theme. The tweet I replied to Vortech with is so true. And the subplot shows you the nameless 'nobody's' that are casualties of this war, who have within them the goodness to make the world better. It's not just about Heroes! It's about us all. Working together.

"No Gods nor Monsters, only People" happens to be a mantra of mine, so this was definitely something I noted. Again, as with the above, if only it had one more pass with the script.

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"No Gods nor Monsters, only People" happens to be a mantra of mine, so this was definitely something I noted. Again, as with the above, if only it had one more pass with the script.

You mentioned doing a fan edit, so I'd be curious to see your response to Blade Runner 2049 when I get to it in January. Maybe it will inform us both about film making, storytelling, and audiences.

You will need:

A copy of Blade Runner 2049 on BluRay (SD might work but not sure)
A BluRay drive and a way to rip the movie
Adobe Premiere Pro / After Effects 2018 (You can get a 7 day free trial)

This way I can distribute the project file without infringing copyright - you supply the media on your own end.

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It's just not Starwars

That's literally what people said about ESB when it came out. This movie is definitely Star Wars. On a thematic level, it's completely true to the Saga, and a much needed correction from Force Awakens.

And they're right. ESB ain't Star Wars. It's ESB, and it's worse.

Thematically, TFA was identical to Star Wars. This one is if someone took ESB and added in the good parts of ROTJ. It's so similar to ESB, to its detriment, that I was able to to guess there would be a weird trippy moment with the protagonist while exploring the force in the cave.

The Force Awakens seems like SW fan fiction. TLJ seems like ESB fan fiction. It has corrected nothing, and is no better than TFA, but introduced so many plot issues, was so trendy in aesthetics and gags, that I am actually upset with this movie a little bit. I am going to buy the novelization to see if it fixes my issues.

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was so trendy in aesthetics and gags,

I think you are talking about a problem I had with 7 and this one too. Some of the dialog — especially the humor — just feels so modern. Like after the last movie I can't recall a specific instance, but unlike last time I can say it feels like a lot of it is linked to Poe. I keep wondering if the original trilogy was also using contemporary phrases but I knots don't know it because that's so baked into the culture by now. It's a hard thing for me to nail down.

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was so trendy in aesthetics and gags,

I think you are talking about a problem I had with 7 and this one too. Some of the dialog — especially the humor — just feels so modern. Like after the last movie I can't recall a specific instance, but unlike last time I can say it feels like a lot of it is linked to Poe. I keep wondering if the original trilogy was also using contemporary phrases but I knots don't know it because that's so baked into the culture by now. It's a hard thing for me to nail down.

Go back and watch ANH and ESB. Count the number of ‘jokes’. Not funny lines or moments, but moments that are crafted purely for the audience - that would not exist if nobody is watching.

...

Now do the same thing with 7 and 8. There’s a lot of jokes. All the funny stuff in the original trilogy is motivated based on character.

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It's just not Starwars

That's literally what people said about ESB when it came out. This movie is definitely Star Wars. On a thematic level, it's completely true to the Saga, and a much needed correction from Force Awakens.

And they're right. ESB ain't Star Wars. It's ESB, and it's worse.

Thematically, TFA was identical to Star Wars. This one is if someone took ESB and added in the good parts of ROTJ. It's so similar to ESB, to its detriment, that I was able to to guess there would be a weird trippy moment with the protagonist while exploring the force in the cave.

The Force Awakens seems like SW fan fiction. TLJ seems like ESB fan fiction. It has corrected nothing, and is no better than TFA, but introduced so many plot issues, was so trendy in aesthetics and gags, that I am actually upset with this movie a little bit. I am going to buy the novelization to see if it fixes my issues.

What plot issues? It is paying for the sins of Force Awakens. It seems like so many people are knocking this for not answering the ‘mystery box’ questions in the Force Awakens. Rey’s parents being nobody is actually the best choice for the film, and for the Saga.

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WHY NO KAMIKAZES IN THE PAST?! WHY NO FORCE GHOST INTERVENTIONS?! EXPLAIN WHY THEY WANTED BALANCE IN THE FORCE IF IT IS ALREADY NECESSARILY BALANCED! AND SO ON.

TFA made no story "sins" afaik other than being wildly uncreative.

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WHY NO KAMIKAZES IN THE PAST?! WHY NO FORCE GHOST INTERVENTIONS?! EXPLAIN WHY THEY WANTED BALANCE IN THE FORCE IF IT IS ALREADY NECESSARILY BALANCED! AND SO ON.

TFA made no story "sins" afaik other than being wildly uncreative.

Just because we haven’t seen any of that happen before doesn’t mean it’s never been done. As far as we know, Qui-Gon was literally the first Jedi to become a Force Ghost, because he was so in tune with the Force and didn’t strictly adhere to the Jedi path. Is it really that crazy to think that maybe Yoda, perhaps the greatest Jedi ever, learned how to do a few things when he became a Force Ghost? The balance thing was only ever because of the Prophecy, as far as I know, and they didn’t even really understand exactly what it meant.

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TFA made no story "sins" afaik other than being wildly uncreative.

The reliance on the 'mystery box' storytelling is the biggest sin in TFA, and the one Last Jedi has to pay for most.

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I would have hoped this would be obvious. Everybody seems most concerned with three things:

1. Not knowing who Snoke is
2. Rey's parents just being nobodies.
3. Rose and Finn's Casino adventure

The first two are a direct result of the mystery box.

The Force Awakens made such a big deal out of the mystery of Rey's parentage, but that mystery itself serves no dramatic function and actually obscures character motivations. Why did Rey drop the lightsaber and 'refuse the call'? I see no character based reason. Would the film have not been better dramatically if we KNEW her parents were nobodies who left her? That the film makers could then base her refusal and reluctance on her inability to trust based on that betrayal? It's just like… I can't I have to stay here. They might come back. That's weak a shit.

But then it spills over into Last Jedi. Making her parents nobodies was 100% the best decision when you really get down to it. But the reaction from most is just a letdown because of the buildup in the first film. JJ Abrams made an insane promise, and you're going to fault Rian Johnson for seeing that is was insane? Why do you think Luke just tossed away the lightsaber? Because the final sequence of the Force Awakens couldn't possibly have delivered on anything other than the intrigue of the moment.

Same thing with Snoke. The air of mystery around Snoke was just as untenable. Everything about the way he was presented in the Force Awakens was filled with the same bullshit mystery box allure. Again how do you live up to that? Especially when he is not really that important to the story? Contrast this with how the Emperor was introduced in A New Hope. By the time we got to Return of the Jedi, I don't think anyone was torn up inside that we don't know exactly who he is.

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1. Not knowing who Snoke is

Yeah, I guess. But having a character who is mysterious is not something I would call a "sin". And it's never a plot item, it's just information not contained in the movie. The sin of J.J.A. in the past with this stuff was making the central motivating force an unknown and never explained thing. The red orb in Alias. The red orb in Star Trek, the entirety of the Dharma initiative. etc.

2. Rey's parents just being nobodies.

She was not obsessed with their identities, nor was the movie. The fans were. She just wanted her family back and to not feel alone. That seems like a very normal thing to feel and not what I would call a mystery box, which I think of as a kind of mc Guffin.

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1. Not knowing who Snoke is

Yeah, I guess. But having a character who is mysterious is not something I would call a "sin". And it's never a plot item, it's just information not contained in the movie. The sin of J.J.A. in the past with this stuff was making the central motivating force an unknown and never explained thing. The red orb in Alias. The red orb in Star Trek, the entirety of the Dharma initiative. etc.

2. Rey's parents just being nobodies.

She was not obsessed with their identities, nor was the movie. The fans were. She just wanted her family back and to not feel alone. That seems like a very normal thing to feel and not what I would call a mystery box, which I think of as a kind of mc Guffin.

TFA was absolutely obsessed with their identities, or else it would not have been the mystery that it was.

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Why did Rey drop the lightsaber and 'refuse the call'? I see no character based reason.

Eh? Because she touched a lightsaber and got a frightening Force vision that included students being slaughtered, ruins on fire, and herself as a small child? That's pretty motivating all by itself!

Personally, I'm still holding out for there being something else behind the story of her parents. She didn't find out anything about them in any scene, Ben forced her into "admitting" something but that's it... Her idea that they gave her up was emotional and what she secretly feared, but may not be correct.

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Personally, I'm still holding out for there being something else behind the story of her parents. She didn't find out anything about them in any scene, Ben forced her into "admitting" something but that's it... Her idea that they gave her up was emotional and what she secretly feared, but may not be correct.

It's correct. I thought perhaps Kylo was an unreliable narrator, but Rey even says she kind of always knew.

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And there are no more sith according to the film.

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I have no real problems with any of those things people are upset about.

I do have problems with the things you say JJ Abrams mystery boxed, but not because of that mystery box, because I felt they were creatively lazy mirrors of the first trilogy. It was a cargo cult version of Star Wars.

I don't care about the mystery box crap.

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TFA made no story "sins" afaik other than being wildly uncreative.

The reliance on the 'mystery box' storytelling is the biggest sin in TFA, and the one Last Jedi has to pay for most.

I agree about JJ’s obsession with Mystery Boxes being bad, but I think TLJ actually closed those issues off in a smart and effective way. It doesn’t actually matter who Rey’s parents are. Nor does it matter where Snoke came from. Those points have nothing to do with the story being told in this movie. They were just cheap ways to get ultra fans worked up and theorizing.

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TFA made no story "sins" afaik other than being wildly uncreative.

The reliance on the 'mystery box' storytelling is the biggest sin in TFA, and the one Last Jedi has to pay for most.

I agree about JJ’s obsession with Mystery Boxes being bad, but I think TLJ actually closed those issues off in a smart and effective way. It doesn’t actually matter who Rey’s parents are. Nor does it matter where Snoke came from. Those points have nothing to do with the story being told in this movie. They were just cheap ways to get ultra fans worked up and theorizing.

Absolutely. But the negative reaction to the film largely seems to be on its seeming failure to indulge us with answers to the mystery box question.

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TFA made no story "sins" afaik other than being wildly uncreative.

The reliance on the 'mystery box' storytelling is the biggest sin in TFA, and the one Last Jedi has to pay for most.

I agree about JJ’s obsession with Mystery Boxes being bad, but I think TLJ actually closed those issues off in a smart and effective way. It doesn’t actually matter who Rey’s parents are. Nor does it matter where Snoke came from. Those points have nothing to do with the story being told in this movie. They were just cheap ways to get ultra fans worked up and theorizing.

Absolutely. But the negative reaction to the film largely seems to be on its seeming failure to indulge us with answers to the mystery box question.

No direspect to anyone who is upset about the lack of “satisfying revelations” on those points, but IMO that’s just fanboys/fangirls getting caught up in hype to the point that they’ve lost the point of the story.

The “I am your father” revelation in Empire was not impactful because the question of Luke’s parentage was inherently important... it was impactful because that specific relationship (father and son) changed the dynamic of everything that happened afterwards. But too many people are worked up about Rey’s parents just because it would be “cool” if she were related to Luke or Obi Wan or anything like that. But Johnson was smart enough to recognize that kind of thing as self indulgent and irrelevant to the actual story being told. More over, he played it into the main theme that hero’s can be anyone, from anywhere.

The Snoke thing actually pisses me off more, by which I mean I find it frustrating that people are knocking the movie over a lack of backstory around snoke. Like, who cares? Why does it matter? He’s another generic machevelian ultra-powerful puppetmaster. We’ve seen that villain countless times. We know what he wants. There’s nothing interesting to develop there. I was thrilled to see TLJ get him out of the way and shift the focus firmly on to Ren, who is a far more interesting character.

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TFA made no story "sins" afaik other than being wildly uncreative.

The reliance on the 'mystery box' storytelling is the biggest sin in TFA, and the one Last Jedi has to pay for most.

I agree about JJ’s obsession with Mystery Boxes being bad, but I think TLJ actually closed those issues off in a smart and effective way. It doesn’t actually matter who Rey’s parents are. Nor does it matter where Snoke came from. Those points have nothing to do with the story being told in this movie. They were just cheap ways to get ultra fans worked up and theorizing.

Absolutely. But the negative reaction to the film largely seems to be on its seeming failure to indulge us with answers to the mystery box question.

No direspect to anyone who is upset about the lack of “satisfying revelations” on those points, but IMO that’s just fanboys/fangirls getting caught up in hype to the point that they’ve lost the point of the story.

The “I am your father” revelation in Empire was not impactful because the question of Luke’s parentage was inherently important... it was impactful because that specific relationship (father and son) changed the dynamic of everything that happened afterwards. But too many people are worked up about Rey’s parents just because it would be “cool” if she were related to Luke or Obi Wan or anything like that. But Johnson was smart enough to recognize that kind of thing as self indulgent and irrelevant to the actual story being told. More over, he played it into the main theme that hero’s can be anyone, from anywhere.

The Snoke thing actually pisses me off more, by which I mean I find it frustrating that people are knocking the movie over a lack of backstory around snoke. Like, who cares? Why does it matter? He’s another generic machevelian ultra-powerful puppetmaster. We’ve seen that villain countless times. We know what he wants. There’s nothing interesting to develop there. I was thrilled to see TLJ get him out of the way and shift the focus firmly on to Ren, who is a far more interesting character.

Everything you just said in that post was right. :-D

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Your post directly covers so many of my thoughts. Just wanted to say I think your post is awesome.

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TFA made no story "sins" afaik other than being wildly uncreative.

The reliance on the 'mystery box' storytelling is the biggest sin in TFA, and the one Last Jedi has to pay for most.

I agree about JJ’s obsession with Mystery Boxes being bad, but I think TLJ actually closed those issues off in a smart and effective way. It doesn’t actually matter who Rey’s parents are. Nor does it matter where Snoke came from. Those points have nothing to do with the story being told in this movie. They were just cheap ways to get ultra fans worked up and theorizing.

Absolutely. But the negative reaction to the film largely seems to be on its seeming failure to indulge us with answers to the mystery box question.

No direspect to anyone who is upset about the lack of “satisfying revelations” on those points, but IMO that’s just fanboys/fangirls getting caught up in hype to the point that they’ve lost the point of the story.

The “I am your father” revelation in Empire was not impactful because the question of Luke’s parentage was inherently important... it was impactful because that specific relationship (father and son) changed the dynamic of everything that happened afterwards. But too many people are worked up about Rey’s parents just because it would be “cool” if she were related to Luke or Obi Wan or anything like that. But Johnson was smart enough to recognize that kind of thing as self indulgent and irrelevant to the actual story being told. More over, he played it into the main theme that hero’s can be anyone, from anywhere.

The Snoke thing actually pisses me off more, by which I mean I find it frustrating that people are knocking the movie over a lack of backstory around snoke. Like, who cares? Why does it matter? He’s another generic machevelian ultra-powerful puppetmaster. We’ve seen that villain countless times. We know what he wants. There’s nothing interesting to develop there. I was thrilled to see TLJ get him out of the way and shift the focus firmly on to Ren, who is a far more interesting character.

Well, there you go. I actually don't find any of the characters very interesting at this point, but I guess that's my problem. The two previous movies had a few moments at least that made me feel something. This one didn't, and I don't know why. (I was hopeful--Rian Johnson directed the best TV episode ever--but I just wasn't feeling it. Maybe a different day and different viewing.)

I do like that the Force is back up for grabs by anyone who believes in it. That's how it should be, Mr. Lucas (I can't forgive you, sorry.)

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I thought it was weird. The way in which it kept setting up specific expectations and then subverting them (along with the fan service moments) was almost 4th wall breaking for me.

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I thought it was weird. The way in which it kept setting up specific expectations and then subverting them (along with the fan service moments) was almost 4th wall breaking for me.

It saddens me to write this, but maybe I've outgrown Star Wars, or Star Wars has outgrown the kid in me who loved it. I was excited about these movies because of the original cast returning (and Lucas' non-involvement), but now I don't know if it was such a good thing. Harrison Ford did the best job of convincing me that Han was actually back. Otherwise, it's Tom Hanks syndrome. On some level you don't perceive Tom Hanks as a character--he's always Tom Hanks. I'm sad to say that in TLJ I always saw old Mark Hamill pretending to be Luke, I saw old Carrie Fisher pretending to be Princess Leia. And the new actors become such instant celebrities it's basically the same across the board, not including the A-list actors chomping at the bit to set foot on a Star Wars soundstage.

It's easy to begin to feel like Star Wars has become a collection of metas that have little to do with telling a compelling story. The cute creature meta (for merchandising). The big star cameo meta (for the celebrity obsessed). The callback meta. The easter egg meta. The space battle meta (with its predictable beats). The last-minute rescue meta. The loose string meta (to enable more movies forever). I'm not usually the most cynical person in the room, but to me it all feels calculated to achieve an effect, I don't know what the purpose of Star Wars is anymore. It doesn't seem to be to crib from Joseph Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" and create something new out of these disparate influences. The faces have changed, but what is new about it? Nearly nothing as far as I can see.

Maybe the Han Solo movie will have to be different enough to interest me. The future of the main movies interests me less and less.

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It's easy to begin to feel like Star Wars has become a collection of metas that have little to do with telling a compelling story. The cute creature meta (for merchandising). The big star cameo meta (for the celebrity obsessed). The callback meta. The easter egg meta. The space battle meta (with its predictable beats). The last-minute rescue meta. The loose string meta (to enable more movies forever). I'm not usually the most cynical person in the room, but to me it all feels calculated to achieve an effect, I don't know what the purpose of Star Wars is anymore. It doesn't seem to be to crib from Joseph Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" and create something new out of these disparate influences. The faces have changed, but what is new about it? Nearly nothing as far as I can see.

So, it's weird, I completely agree with what you said here. But, I still enjoyed watching it, and I want to watch it again.

As far as chocolate chip cookies go it was very typical, certainly nothing exceptional, in fact I caught a hint of shortening, but it still tasted good and I want another.

I might feel differently about it if I got chocolate chip cookies every day like we do Marvel movies... They'll still taste good, but I probably wouldn't want seconds.

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I'm not usually the most cynical person in the room, but to me it all feels calculated to achieve an effect, I don't know what the purpose of Star Wars is anymore. It doesn't seem to be to crib from Joseph Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" and create something new out of these disparate influences. The faces have changed, but what is new about it? Nearly nothing as far as I can see.

I… am not sure how to respond because for me the purpose was so utterly clear I am somewhat shocked you can say that.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to".

This whole movie is about letting go of our idolization of the old heroes, and bringing up a new generation and fostering goodness. Making us get over the very idea of a hero. Maybe we looked up to Luke a little too much. Maybe the mythology was self indulgent. Maybe we fetishize the past instead of focusing on the future. It's like, the perfect message for a generation who said that Lucas killed their childhood.

It's not giving you what you want, but what you need.

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I'm not usually the most cynical person in the room, but to me it all feels calculated to achieve an effect, I don't know what the purpose of Star Wars is anymore. It doesn't seem to be to crib from Joseph Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" and create something new out of these disparate influences. The faces have changed, but what is new about it? Nearly nothing as far as I can see.

I… am not sure how to respond because for me the purpose was so utterly clear I am somewhat shocked you can say that.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to".

This whole movie is about letting go of our idolization of the old heroes, and bringing up a new generation and fostering goodness. Making us get over the very idea of a hero. Maybe we looked up to Luke a little too much. Maybe the mythology was self indulgent. Maybe we fetishize the past instead of focusing on the future. It's like, the perfect message for a generation who said that Lucas killed their childhood.

It's not giving you what you want, but what you need.

This is deep man. There are so many complaints about this movie that could be met with "You're still holding on! Let the past go!"

I appreciate this observation.

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HEY GUYS LET'S MAKE THE SAME MOVIE OVER AND OVER AGAIN BUT IMPLY IT'S DIFFERENT BECAUSE WE KILLED OFF SOME GUYS AND WE CAN SAY "LET THE PAST GO."

I still like Star Wars. I think these new ones have lost the creativity of the first 6, but it's still Star Wars, and rehashing the same crap competently is fine for me. As annoyed as I am by parts of this movie, it isn't enough to make me not want to go see every single other star Wars movie they ever put out in perpetuity.

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I'm not usually the most cynical person in the room, but to me it all feels calculated to achieve an effect, I don't know what the purpose of Star Wars is anymore. It doesn't seem to be to crib from Joseph Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" and create something new out of these disparate influences. The faces have changed, but what is new about it? Nearly nothing as far as I can see.

I… am not sure how to respond because for me the purpose was so utterly clear I am somewhat shocked you can say that.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to".

This whole movie is about letting go of our idolization of the old heroes, and bringing up a new generation and fostering goodness. Making us get over the very idea of a hero. Maybe we looked up to Luke a little too much. Maybe the mythology was self indulgent. Maybe we fetishize the past instead of focusing on the future. It's like, the perfect message for a generation who said that Lucas killed their childhood.

It's not giving you what you want, but what you need.

Kylo Ren says let the past die but this is the guy who wants to be Darth Vader when he grows up. I'll grant that he destroys his cosplay helmet, but what does he propose to replace the past? Ruling from the dark side, apparently. (The politics of Star Wars has always been a little problematic, so I'm willing to concede that maybe he sees himself as a benevolent leader, but the movie doesn't explore that enough for it to be plausible to me. We assume he wants to be a bad dude.)

From my perspective a Star Wars universe that doesn't value heroism is no longer a Star Wars universe, so I really don't get your point about that. This movie doesn't reject heroism at all.

So if I say George Lucas killed my childhood this movie is endorsing that killing? Wow, I really don't like it then. What's ironic about what you're saying is that I'm the one calling for creativity and originality, whereas as I see it the new movies suffer from a profound anxiety of influence. They can't stop reflexively referencing the old stuff, mirroring the old stuff, and hitting the same beats.

When I say I don't know what the purpose of Star Wars is anymore I'm saying I don't know what the artistic purpose is. Great talent is lining up to be involved, but what's the objective other being involved in such a popular franchise?

Dogcow and Funk--I'm really closer to your view despite sounding so negative (excepting Funk's love for the prequels). I enjoyed the film, I'll probably watch it again, and I might enjoy it more the second time. I wanted to like it more than I did, though, and that in itself is disappointing.

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This movie doesn't reject heroism at all.

There are a lot of ways this movie approaches reflections on heroism, both for the good and the bad. Multiple characters themselves reject heroism. Whether to come back to it in the end, temper their own ideations of it, or to embrace the darkness inside them. Homestly, the movie at its core does not reject heroism, but it is highly critical of what it can become.

The most important scene, thematically, in the movie is the Yoda scene.

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After a second viewing my impression is even more positive. This is the exact opposite experience I had with Force Awakens.

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There is a difference between heroism and heroes. Nowhere does this film reject heroism.

The references to the old are to remind us what to grow past.

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"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to".

This whole movie is about letting go of our idolization of the old heroes, and bringing up a new generation and fostering goodness. Making us get over the very idea of a hero. Maybe we looked up to Luke a little too much. Maybe the mythology was self indulgent. Maybe we fetishize the past instead of focusing on the future. It's like, the perfect message for a generation who said that Lucas killed their childhood.

It's not giving you what you want, but what you need.

Then add the second message of the film, delivered by Rose; you don't win by destroying what you hate, but by saving what you love. In a way, this movie is a huge call-out on the Star Wars grognard/gatekeepers set... many of whom are even now petitioning Disney to yank TLJ out of canon. Go figure.

-- Steve thinks RJ was a bit on the nose, but he had a point

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Then add the second message of the film, delivered by Rose; you don't win by destroying what you hate, but by saving what you love.

Aaah dang! You're right too!

Now I don't know what to think. There's layers to this s*** player! Tiramisu. Tiramisu.

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Poe <3

The end of Luke's character arc was breathtaking. Are you kidding me with that final shot?

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I can agree on Luke, but man oh man was I disappointed when there wasn't a scene of him lifting his X-Wing out of the water. Why even show it underwater like that!

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To show he had no intention of ever leaving that island again.

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To show he had no intention of ever leaving that island again.

Or to provide a plausible reason as to how "he" could have gotten off and landed to meet on the salt planet.

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Luke demanded a paternity test on Maury Povich.

Turns out it wasn’t true. It really was impossible. :-)

That was dumb even for me. Anyway, I heard that TLJ broke preorder records, which makes sense.

What I’m genuinely curious about is how much “new” is added to this megalithic franchise. How much of it stays true. I can’t help wondering if all this stuff falls into canon with...EVERYTHING! There’s so much stuff in Star Wars—are they making a different story, or trying to keep in line with the other two trilogies?

Geez, what a mind bender.

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The only previously published material still considered canon are the six original trilogy/prequel trilogy films, the Star Wars: The Clone Wars television series and film, and the stand-alone Dark Horse Comics arc Star Wars: Darth Maul—Son of Dathomir; which was based on unproduced scripts from The Clone Wars TV series. Canon on wookieepedia

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I really enjoyed it. I think it was better than Episode VII, HOWEVER, holy shit did this movie have some major and in some cases unforgivable plot and story issues. I need a second viewing to truly nail down my thoughts, but all things considered so far, I had a great time with it. Definitely not a perfect movie, and reviews claiming it’s up there with Empire are full of shit (but whatever, they’re entitled to their opinions and/or Disney bribe money).

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Not canon.

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I always assumed the reason we didn't see any lightspeed kamikaze runs in the past was that they were turned into weakly interacting particles of some sort, or they went to slipspace or something.

Now we see one. This could have solved literally every single other problem in the entire series. SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME WHY NOBODY DID THIS BEFORE!

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No autopilot would be a great reason, but "why aren't more people ok with kamikazing themselves?" turns into a valid question.

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We see literally suicidal runs in almost every single Star Wars movie. In this movie, people did stuff knowing they would die like a billion times. Why bother having 30 people knowingly kill themselves on those bombers when we can just get one guy in a Y wing go to hyperspace?

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A Cruiser and a Y-Wing are two bery differently sized things.

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A Y-Wing must do something. Just aim better than Holdor did and go for the bridge.

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I guess they did?

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Nah, them's just normal short range jumps. In the movie Laura Dern asplodes another ship with it.

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Man, now I'm gonna have to spend tomorrow typing up why. Ug.

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No…

I guess this will be clear when I type something up and it's hard to organize everything down, but it's definitely not an isnotcanon situation. In fact, think it had some very smart affecting choices. It was really good. But a mess.

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Man, now I'm gonna have to spend tomorrow typing up why. Ug.

I mean, if you don’t want to, why do it? You don’t have to like it, you also don’t have to defend that decision (unless you want to have an actual conversation). I won’t rip you a new one because you didn’t like it and I did. Yay subjectivity!

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Man, now I'm gonna have to spend tomorrow typing up why. Ug.

I mean, if you don’t want to, why do it? You don’t have to like it, you also don’t have to defend that decision (unless you want to have an actual conversation). I won’t rip you a new one because you didn’t like it and I did. Yay subjectivity!

I think it would be helpful to the discussion. After all, we have and are currently talking on here about how Bungie has lost its way with storytelling.

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Man, now I'm gonna have to spend tomorrow typing up why. Ug.

I mean, if you don’t want to, why do it? You don’t have to like it, you also don’t have to defend that decision (unless you want to have an actual conversation). I won’t rip you a new one because you didn’t like it and I did. Yay subjectivity!

I think it would be helpful to the discussion. After all, we have and are currently talking on here about how Bungie has lost its way with storytelling.

I agree! Your post just felt like you didn’t “want” have a discussion.

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I agree that it was a mess in so many ways, but in other ways it was gripping, surprising, and very well done. I had a pretty good time with it. What Funkmon said about it being Reach is a great point. I absolutely love Reach and had a blast playing all of it, but holy shit did its story have problems. Same with multiplayer with things like bloom, Arena being garb, etc. Didn’t stop it from being a good time. I’d definitely watch it again and even recommend that others see it. And hey, if you’re gonna rip some of the plot and what have you to shreds, then it saves me some time. I’ll reply with whatever you miss. :P

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Hit a great balance for me. Felt “true” to the franchise without being afraid to take bold new steps or break new ground. It played with recurring themes, which is very much a core tenant of Star Wars, without feeling like a rehash. I could nit-pick little moments that didn’t quite work for me, but none of them detracted from the power of the overall film, IMO.

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I honestly don't know what I thought of it, but I was very surprised that none of the characters had any development through the course of the movie. I mean, Poe, kinda, in that he's slightly less action-oriented, maybe?

I'm also surprised how little agency people had in the plot. I've never been one to get rilled up with that "Indiana Jones didn't have any influence on the outcome of Raiders" stuff, but man. I mean, except for Admiral Laura Dern's sacrificial jump saving 7 people and kicking off the deaths of a couple people across 3 different plot lines, nobody really accomplished anything. Snoak's death has something there in as much as someone decided to do a thing, but it's a momentary trick which can be cool as a part of a larger series of events, but feels thin here. Luke force-creates corporal matter (which is a thing he can do, apparently) but all in the service of another trick and just being a distraction — after which point he vaporizes himself because he's s proud of the trick he had done. Rae does almost nothing — killing some anonymous foot soldiers and some more elite looking anonymous foot soldiers, followed by lifting some boulders — and spends the whole moving failing to convince anybody to do anything. Finn and Rose smash up a town to acquire a guy who sells them out, but

(Also what the hell was with the twin suns callback? His wish for a life of adventure in space was fulfilled, or regained after losing his taste for it? I don't know what they were going for, there.)

Porgs are cute. I guess this franchise needed some tribbles.

I know this sounds like I hated it. That's not the case, but if feels so incomplete and yet so long. It's like it should have been edited down to a 1hour episode of a tv series, where it's ok to have an episode that does not move the ball much, but lets you meet some new people or see other aspects of the universe, and have a few rollicking space combat or swordplay. Here, though where is is 1/3 of the total story you get and you need to wait years for the next installment? I dunno.

OK. Last gripe: what happened to all of the practical FX stuff from 7? This movie had cgi everywhere and it was not super convincing.

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I honestly don't know what I thought of it, but I was very surprised that none of the characters had any development through the course of the movie. I mean, Poe, kinda, in that he's slightly less action-oriented, maybe? I'm also surprised how little agency people had in the plot

Everything that you just said is wrong :-p

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I must have missed a lot because by my count there were a lot of character development cul-de-sacs, but nobody really ended up somewhere they were not before. OK, well Luke…

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I must have missed a lot because by my count there were a lot of character development cul-de-sacs, but nobody really ended up somewhere they were not before. OK, well Luke…

This guy said it best:

The theme of TLJ could be "it's not about me". Luke thinks he's to blame for Kylo. Rey thinks she's the new chosen one. Poe thinks he can save the day single-handed. The film challenges their assumptions and forces them to overcome their egos and embrace collectivism. Clear arcs.

I'd add Finn in there too, but his was kind of ruined by Rose not letting him have his sacrifice.

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I must have missed a lot because by my count there were a lot of character development cul-de-sacs, but nobody really ended up somewhere they were not before. OK, well Luke…

This guy said it best:

The theme of TLJ could be "it's not about me". Luke thinks he's to blame for Kylo. Rey thinks she's the new chosen one. Poe thinks he can save the day single-handed. The film challenges their assumptions and forces them to overcome their egos and embrace collectivism. Clear arcs.

I'd add Finn in there too, but his was kind of ruined by Rose not letting him have his sacrifice.

This movie is about failure.

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I must have missed a lot because by my count there were a lot of character development cul-de-sacs, but nobody really ended up somewhere they were not before. OK, well Luke…

This guy said it best:

The theme of TLJ could be "it's not about me". Luke thinks he's to blame for Kylo. Rey thinks she's the new chosen one. Poe thinks he can save the day single-handed. The film challenges their assumptions and forces them to overcome their egos and embrace collectivism. Clear arcs.

I'd add Finn in there too, but his was kind of ruined by Rose not letting him have his sacrifice.

This movie is about failure.

And disappointment. It’s about how heros aren’t perfect.

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I must have missed a lot because by my count there were a lot of character development cul-de-sacs, but nobody really ended up somewhere they were not before. OK, well Luke…

This guy said it best:

The theme of TLJ could be "it's not about me". Luke thinks he's to blame for Kylo. Rey thinks she's the new chosen one. Poe thinks he can save the day single-handed. The film challenges their assumptions and forces them to overcome their egos and embrace collectivism. Clear arcs.

I'd add Finn in there too, but his was kind of ruined by Rose not letting him have his sacrifice.

This movie is about failure.

It is about learning from failure. Finn already failed by siding with the scummy code breaker, and having him give up the location of the escape ships. Without this moment, did he learn?

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It is about learning from failure. Finn already failed by siding with the scummy code breaker, and having him give up the location of the escape ships. Without this moment, did he learn?

How the -blam!- did the slicer know about those ships anyway?! Finn & co. were captured BEFORE Poe learned of the plan. In fact, the "why the -blam!- Holdor didn't just tell the plan to Poe in the first place" only backfires because of this huge gaping plot hole where the slicer knows more than he should be able to, according to the narrative.

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Obviously major spoilers coming up here if anyone is reading this somehow who doesn't want to be spoiled. You've been warned.

When they were on their way back, Poe was telling Finn about the plan to jump ship. Benicio overheard, and then bad things went down. But I have major, major issues with the way they handled the Poe/Finn/Rose stuff beyond all of that. Finn practically single handedly destroyed the majority of those people. Instead of sticking to the plan and finding the actual codebreaker Maz recommended (also, how'd they know how to get in touch with Maz, let alone think she'd be the best one to go to for this? I suppose there are explanations that could work, but I thought it a stretch), they put their trust in the random dude they find in prison who opened ONE door. Because why not? He can open doors, surely he can do the thing with giant ships and their shields. Which of course also leads to them being betrayed and most of the people on their ship being killed. And all because their Admiral didn't want to tell anyone else on board what the actual plan was? Which also led to a mutiny?

Having a theme about failure and learning from it (or not) is fantastic (and I'm down with it and actually think it worked pretty well overall), but this was just some majorly bad plot and hard for me to believe that everyone around would be that failingly stupid. Plenty of missed opportunites spin out of this, too. Might do a more indepth write-up on my thoughts, but this is all I want to touch on for now. Either way, still really liked the movie (and still think it's better than TFA).

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How the -blam!- did the slicer know about those ships anyway?! Finn & co. were captured BEFORE Poe learned of the plan

Just to clarify, Poe talked to Finn after seeing that the shuttles were being fueled, so he knew they were jumping ship but not why.. so he told Finn and hacker man overheard and probably told the first order to look for shuttles.

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"Hey, I surrender. Also, look for transports."
'Oh, gee, man, thanks! Here's a lot of money and a shuttle out of here.'

No, I believe the camo codes were instrumental to the bargain they made. How DJ would know the ships he heard in passing would be cloaked with a frequency he could crack is the hole for me.

About Holdor, I think she didn't tell as a lesson to Poe. Honestly, if Poe plan works or not isn't of consequence to the survival of her crew (as far as she can tell). Hell, if it works, she gets to survive, as opposed to her original plan of single-handedly flying the cruiser until it runs out of juice. If it doesn't, she'll just carry on with her plan anyway. She knows Poe won't jump without a successful hack so whatever.

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This guy said it best:

The theme of TLJ could be "it's not about me". Luke thinks he's to blame for Kylo. Rey thinks she's the new chosen one. Poe thinks he can save the day single-handed. The film challenges their assumptions and forces them to overcome their egos and embrace collectivism. Clear arcs.

I'd add Finn in there too, but his was kind of ruined by Rose not letting him have his sacrifice.

OK, but that sounds a lot like saying that they all tried to have agency, and then learned that they didn't. Which is a fine way to plot a movie, but I don't think it counters my point. Especially since I don't remember them collectively achieving things that they didn't individually. It was the individual acts that had the most success.

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OK. Last gripe: what happened to all of the practical FX stuff from 7? This movie had cgi everywhere and it was not super convincing.

The Last Jedi had double the practical effects of The Force Awakens and more then any other Star Wars film according to the link,although it seems to me they are counting creatures on camera at once and it might not fit ones definition of practical effects. I tend to think of more then people dressed up as aliens.did you know the Yoda Ghost was a puppet and not CGI. I thought for sure it was computer generated.

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did you know the Yoda Ghost was a puppet and not CGI. I thought for sure it was computer generated.

I did! And I loved it. I actually loved that entire scene so much, and not just because of what you said.

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Who is Snoke? Where did he come from?

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Who is Snoke? Where did he come from?

It’s 1983. Luke Skywalker has surrendered himself to Darth Vader in an attempt to turn him back to the Light. He’s brought before the Emperor. With the knowledge you would have had in 1983, who was Emperor Palpatine? Where did he come from? Was that knowledge out there at all?

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Who is Snoke? Where did he come from?

It’s 1983. Luke Skywalker has surrendered himself to Darth Vader in an attempt to turn him back to the Light. He’s brought before the Emperor. With the knowledge you would have had in 1983, who was Emperor Palpatine? Where did he come from? Was that knowledge out there at all?

Well that was logical and unsatisfying.

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It is, but it's also entirely lacking context.

It's 1983. You're 5 years old. You ask your mom if you can go to Disney World. She says no. You ask why. "It's too far." No big deal. You just showed up. It's always been too far.

It's 2017. You're (2017-1983+5) years old. Your mom refuses to go to Disney World. Why? "It's too far." Are you going to settle for that? No. You're going to dig. She won't sit in a plane for 2 hours to go see goddamn Mickey?

It ain't 1983 no more. We know the universe. We know what came before Snoke.

Let's liken it to something else.

In ROTK, the hobbits go home to the scouring of the shire. Who's doing it? Saruman. The moment we see him, we know his story. Why do we know his story? Cause he showed up earlier in the story, DUH.

Imagine if in ROTK, the hobbits go home to the scouring of the shire. Who's doing it? Todd from Stoke-on-Trent. Oh, that evil Todd, who has been ruining generations of Hobbits for decades of whom everyone knows, but was never mentioned before in either LOTR or The Hobbit. They oust him, after learning nothing of his origin, motivations, or means.

Look, I don't really care much about whence Snoke came or who he is, but pretending the seventh movie can introduce a character implied to be there the whole time, then give the character no more story in the eighth because the second and third movies did it is silly.

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This is pretty much how I feel too. Had a discussion with someone earlier and they also used the Palpatine defense which I didn't like because, in Episodes 1-3, his story is told.

With the franchise starting with episode 4 and Lucas may or may not have actually written 1-3 is debatable but, chronologically, Palpatine was explained.

I'm fine with Snoke being a mystery in 7 as long as he was explained in 8, but he wasn't. It didn't even have to be a major explanation. I'm pretty sure he was just a plot device in Kylo's story. Kylo is conflicted. In 7 he kills his dad, then in 8 he spares his mom. When forced to choose again to kill Rey, he instead decides to kill Snoke. So, is Snoke even relevant?

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I’m fine with Rey’s parents being unimportant (glad even!), and I’m honestly fine with Snoke being dropped and unexplained.

I do think it’s a bit of a cop out to make the first movie in the new trilogy almost explicitly hint at those mysteries and then have the next one go “Gotcha! That shit wasn’t important!”

Like I said, it ultimately doesn’t bother me, not even a little, but I definitely see why it would bother others.

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I think it is important to remember that in TFA Rey’s parentage is important to here because it influences her actions. Knowing who they are is unimportant for who she is becoming. In the same regard, Snoke is provided enough context for his influence on the story of Ben Solo and the existence of the First Order but his history is unimportant for who Kylo Ren is becoming.

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In the same regard, Snoke is provided enough context for his influence on the story of Ben Solo and the existence of the First Order but his history is unimportant for who Kylo Ren is becoming.

I consider that debatable. I'm still confused about how Snoke "got to Ben's head" while the kid was in Luke's Jedi Academy. If they had at least hinted at that...

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In the same regard, Snoke is provided enough context for his influence on the story of Ben Solo and the existence of the First Order but his history is unimportant for who Kylo Ren is becoming.

I consider that debatable. I'm still confused about how Snoke "got to Ben's head" while the kid was in Luke's Jedi Academy. If they had at least hinted at that...

Well, they did hint at it, actually.

Snoke displayed a power I haven't seen before - the ability to bridge minds across space. If he can do that, it's not a hard leap to believe he could find a student in Luke's academy that had huge promise, and 'get to it'.

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In the same regard, Snoke is provided enough context for his influence on the story of Ben Solo and the existence of the First Order but his history is unimportant for who Kylo Ren is becoming.

I consider that debatable. I'm still confused about how Snoke "got to Ben's head" while the kid was in Luke's Jedi Academy. If they had at least hinted at that...

Well, they did hint at it, actually.

Snoke displayed a power I haven't seen before - the ability to bridge minds across space. If he can do that, it's not a hard leap to believe he could find a student in Luke's academy that had huge promise, and 'get to it'.

You have seen that power before. Luke and Vader do the same thing in Empire after their battle on Cloud City.

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Snoke displayed a power I haven't seen before - the ability to bridge minds across space. If he can do that, it's not a hard leap to believe he could find a student in Luke's academy that had huge promise, and 'get to it'.

You have seen that power before. Luke and Vader do the same thing in Empire after their battle on Cloud City.

Totally forgot. Who initiated it? It wasn’t Palpatine, was it? Because then it’s not the same - it’s just two strong Force-users communicating over distance, which is not the same as a third party facilitating a conversation between two others.

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Yeah we've seen Force users sense each others' presence before, and have some rudimentary communication, but it was all at a planetary distance scale, not a light years scale. Sensing of really bad things has happened on a light years scale.

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One of whom he had never met.

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Yep. I agree. While I think the Palpatine Defense is a pretty strong one, The Last Jedi isn't the 3rd movie of a groundbreaking, never-before-seen series. With Palpatine, he was "the Evil Emperor" and he was evil and he was emperor-y. And he had an awesome actor. And, really, he felt like he was just the ultimate bad guy of the universe. Sure, he probably had some backstory, but it wasn't super important. He was here, now, and that was that.

With Snoke, he doesn't exist in the partial vacuum that Palpatine did. If TFA and TLJ were set in a different time period in Star Wars, having Snoke be unexplained would be closer to fine. It would be something of a fresh start just like Star Wars IV, V, and VI were. But no. Instead TFA and TLJ are directly connected to the previous movies. Via ships and characters and so on. With the way things are the natural question is "ok... where was Snoke while the Empire was doing its thing."

Even more of a question, given that Luke said Ben had been influenced by Snoke before the fateful turning point, is how Ben knew Snoke. And, so far that too is unanswered which I think is more than a match for the Palpatine Defense. That needs to be answered somewhere at some point.

That, and doing Snoke as the big scary hologram to start off with kinda set some expectations. I really liked him more as the clever, powerful, red room guy.

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What you’re saying makes sense, but we get enough context in this movie I think. Luke acknowledges that Snoke got to Ben. It goes to show that Luke was also aware of Snoke a ways back. He acted impulsively for just a moment, but that moment was enough to turn Ben over to Snoke, more or less. Add in Snoke’s mind bridging and communication powers, and we appear to have our answer about how he got to Ben (as Claude pointed out). The “who” or “when” regarding the point at which Snoke came to power doesn’t matter beyond the fact that he is around. He’s powerful, he’s not a Sith, and he may very well not be anywhere near as powerful as Palpatine. Either way, he may have waited for his opportunity, got it after Return of the Jedi, and filled quite the void when the Empire more or less fell. I’m still okay with what info we have on Snoke.

Which is way more than we were given with Phasma in these two movies. Great actress, what appeared to be a potentially bad ass character, but totally wasted and worthless beyond selling toys. It’s pretty lame!

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Which is way more than we were given with Phasma in these two movies. Great actress, what appeared to be a potentially bad ass character, but totally wasted and worthless beyond selling toys. It’s pretty lame!

That's just sticking to Star Wars tradition. Boba Fett is the lamest character to ever be in Star Wars, but everyone loves him for some reason.

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I’m aware of the parallel, but I would say it’s sticking to a bit of bad writing and directing. Get rid of BB-9E and have it be Phasma who discovers them on board AND have her cut them off when they’re about to reach their end goal. Have her do something. I doubt they wasted that actress and supposed character because tradition.

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Oh you’re absolutely right. They could have easily just had her notice the screen with the shield indicator and decide to investigate, made her more proactive in the capture rather than just showing up.

I was just making a dumb (but true!) joke to try and get Boba Fett fans riled up.

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I was just making a dumb (but true!) joke to try and get Boba Fett fans riled up.

Those people exist? He such a pushover for a bounty hunter! Even his backstory sucks (ok most SW backstories aren't great). ;)

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I was just making a dumb (but true!) joke to try and get Boba Fett fans riled up.

Those people exist? He such a pushover for a bounty hunter! Even his backstory sucks (ok most SW backstories aren't great). ;)

Clearly. People write whole songs about him:

NSFW BTW

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Maybe it's because after Ep 5 he was a bounty hunter who had to be reminded by VADER not to be too brutal and saw through Solo's trick. It wasn't until the holiday special/Ep 6 that he got lame. That game time to build up affinity.

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It’s 1983. Luke Skywalker has surrendered himself to Darth Vader in an attempt to turn him back to the Light. He’s brought before the Emperor. With the knowledge you would have had in 1983, who was Emperor Palpatine? Where did he come from? Was that knowledge out there at all?

One of my really good friends who loves Star Wars had a tape of Empire Strikes Back as a kid (mid 90s). As in, that was the only movie in the series he had access to, and had ever seen. He says he used to watch it over and over again, and that the only part of it that ever confused him was who the ghost guy named Ben was.

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I saw it tonight and overall I liked the film. I can't say I was swept away but I certainly didn't feel the movie was over-long (despite the run time) and I'm certainly not raving-angry. I liked the themes and thought the new characters were fine, and the handling of old characters was... hmm, I need to think that one out a bit more.

Chucking the midichorians and ditching the idea of Force sensitivity as a [s]venereal disease[/s] familial trait was the right call, IMO.

-- Steve will proudly admit unabashed admiration for how they handled Kylo Ren; that arc may be the best villain's arc in the series or even the Extended Universe material.

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Honestly, I came out of the theatre not sure what to think but the more I reflect on the movie the more I like it. It may run long, but there's a lot packed in there and they didn't talk down to the audience nearly as much as earlier entries... so it's taking me longer to process. But the more I process it, the better the movie comes off.

-- Steve felt somewhat the same way after "Empire Strikes Back", which is now (still) his favourite in the series.

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To be fair, I was sick, and I was super-tired from getting almost no sleep for the previous 2 nights, and the theater we saw it in had the most ridiculously comfortable seats I've ever used in a movie theater (every seat was a cushy electric recliner, fergoshsakes!)... but honestly, there were plenty of eye-rolling moments that just pulled me out of the immersion that these things usually provide for me.

I mean, it was a fine movie. Fun action scenes, a discernable (if a little hole-y) plot, decent action. I don't for a minute feel like I wasted my money, and I don't feel like it's a stain on the Star Wars franchise.

But neither is it the pinnacle of that franchise, and its parallels to ESB were not as point-for-point as the ones between TFW and ANH. (That might be a good thing, by itself - but clearly this trilogy was set up to echo that one, and in that sense, it did a less-good job of it, for me, than its predecessor.)

Eh. It saddens me to think that I've stopped caring enough about Star Wars that the whole internet kerfluffle about this episode is irrelevant to me. :(

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Eh. It saddens me to think that I've stopped caring enough about Star Wars that the whole internet kerfluffle about this episode is irrelevant to me. :(

I feel the same way about Halo.

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Just coast the rest of your life out until death, apathetic about all the things you used to love, occasionally rising from your LaZBoy of indifference to complain about kids these days.

Honestly it sounds like a nice time.

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To be fair, I was sick, and I was super-tired from getting almost no sleep for the previous 2 nights, and the theater we saw it in had the most ridiculously comfortable seats I've ever used in a movie theater (every seat was a cushy electric recliner, fergoshsakes!)... but honestly, there were plenty of eye-rolling moments that just pulled me out of the immersion that these things usually provide for me.

I mean, it was a fine movie. Fun action scenes, a discernable (if a little hole-y) plot, decent action. I don't for a minute feel like I wasted my money, and I don't feel like it's a stain on the Star Wars franchise.

But neither is it the pinnacle of that franchise, and its parallels to ESB were not as point-for-point as the ones between TFW and ANH. (That might be a good thing, by itself - but clearly this trilogy was set up to echo that one, and in that sense, it did a less-good job of it, for me, than its predecessor.)

Eh. It saddens me to think that I've stopped caring enough about Star Wars that the whole internet kerfluffle about this episode is irrelevant to me. :(

I feel like I could've written this post, especially the last sentence. :(

A decent movie, but there are so many better, like, say, Serenity.

So much of it seemed to be fan service, pretty superficial, an attempt to perform old tricks for a new audience. I could never turn my analytical mind off, asking questions like "Wonder how many cartons of cigarettes it took for Carrie's voice to sound like that? Where the hell did Luke get Grecian formula on that island?

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I could never turn my analytical mind off, asking questions like "Wonder how many cartons of cigarettes it took for Carrie's voice to sound like that? Where the hell did Luke get Grecian formula on that island?

Preach!

Though my mind was asking questions like "If only one bomber was needed to destroy the enemy ship, why were there so many bombers?"

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I could never turn my analytical mind off, asking questions like "Wonder how many cartons of cigarettes it took for Carrie's voice to sound like that? Where the hell did Luke get Grecian formula on that island?

Preach!

Though my mind was asking questions like "If only one bomber was needed to destroy the enemy ship, why were there so many bombers?"

Breakage. You bring extra in case you lose some along the way. Which is exactly what happened! Huh.

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Though my mind was asking questions like "If only one bomber was needed to destroy the enemy ship, why were there so many bombers?"

I still don't understand why they keep building massive structures with such an easy to access weak point that is tied to the entire ship with no failsafes built in. It's almost like a specific engineer intentionally designed it that way...

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Though my mind was asking questions like "If only one bomber was needed to destroy the enemy ship, why were there so many bombers?"

I still don't understand why they keep building massive structures with such an easy to access weak point that is tied to the entire ship with no failsafes built in. It's almost like a specific engineer intentionally designed it that way...

Yeah. Both sides need new engineering teams. lol

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If I were to guess, programming and security design isn't at all the Galaxy's strong suit. I mean, no autopilots, every hyperspace thing-a-magingy is a lever (as opposed to a button or something), any and all astromechs can hack the crap out of key military installations, etc

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If I were to guess, programming and security design isn't at all the Galaxy's strong suit. I mean, no autopilots, every hyperspace thing-a-magingy is a lever (as opposed to a button or something), any and all astromechs can hack the crap out of key military installations, etc

You probably don't need auto-pilot in space, just walk away.

Unless you kick it into ludicrous speed and go plaid.

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Well, apparently you slow down when you run out of fuel…so…yeah.

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Droids are at least as capable and useful in Star Wars as people, and they are basically ignored from the beginning. R2 and 3PO walk right in front of the firefight and nobody cares. They leave in an escape pod and it's only an afterthought.

This kind of agency and danger from droids only increases with subsequent movies, but they're still basically ignored in the universe. Is everyone in Star Wars stupid or what?

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Where the hell did Luke get Grecian formula on that island?

You mean when he ForceTimes himself to the salt planet? I assumed that was just a mental self-image, or something like that.

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Where the hell did Luke get Grecian formula on that island?

You mean when he ForceTimes himself to the salt planet? I assumed that was just a mental self-image, or something like that.

Yep.

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Submitted with out comment into this time capsule.

[image]

Just in case the image link breaks.

As of 9:49:26 PM (Coordinated Universal Time - UTC +0000) on Monday, The 18th of December, 2017;

Rotten Tomatoes:

Tomatometer - 93%

Average Rating: 8.2/10
Reviews Counted: 311
Fresh: 290
Rotten: 21

Audience Score - 56%

Average Rating: 3.3/5
Reviews Counted (User Ratings): 108,994

Metacritic:

Metascore - 86

Positive: 51
Mixed: 3
Negative: 0

User Score - 4.9

Positive: 1,270
Mixed: 410
Negative: 1,392

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Submitted with out comment into this time capsule.

I'll submit comment. Why do people expect these things to be life changing amazing!? It was a good movie. Why can't it just be that?

Youths!

[image]

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I can't find the page that had this stuff, but contemporary reviews of the prequels are higher than ROTJ, in general.

Metacritic score gives ROTJ worse scores than AOTC, ROTS, and all other movies besides TPM, which it beats by 1%.

Now, I agree with metacritic, except I think TPM is quite good, and the first movie is the best. But the fan ratings may show you how these movies will be seen 20 years on, not the critic ratings.

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https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/18/16792184/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-review-bomb

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I'm still processing, but I really enjoyed it. I'll definitely go see it again once more while it's in theaters, which is something I very rarely do.

Like Cody, I do think it was sort of a messy movie. It was . . . odd, I guess. I don't know exactly how to describe it. I don't watch movies very analytically, and I know nothing about the process of making or editing films. My only judgment of any movie's quality is "Did I enjoy it?"

The answer to that is an emphatic "Yes!"

For me, it's a movie that was greater than the sum of its parts, but also, a lot of its parts were incredible. So many incredible scenes, and beautiful shots. Rey and Kylo taking out Snoke's honor guard was great, the hyperspace jump through the flagship, the scene where Kylo Ren slices through Luke, with the immediate cut to his boot sliding on the salt, revealing the red beneath, the scene with Rey(s) in the cave. Just a beautiful film.

I found a lot of the jokes really hit, but I don't think they'll hold up well. A lot of them are a bit too *wink wink, nudge nudge*, I think. They definitely play well to an excited theater audience, but I feel like they might stand out a bit too much on repeated viewings. I think the same can be said for Kylo talking to Rey about her parents--that seemed directed explicitly at the fans moreso than Rey, and I straight up didn't like that moment.

I do appreciate that they made damn sure to show Leia and Chewie hugging at the end, after the internet lost its mind when it didn't happen in the last movie.

Overall, I quite enjoyed it. I can understand folks that don't like it, but it really hits for me.

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Birth Movies Death Review

The Backlash Explained

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I have no interest in think pieces about current politics and how this movie fits into all that. Star Wars has never fared well from that kind of analysis, and to the extent the movies have attempted to reflect some current issue, they've sucked. The core of Star Wars' appeal was it's reassertion of universal human experience and archetypes, which was a breath of fresh air and unreflective of the dark, depressing gloom that was the 1970s. (Not that I didn't also love the dark, depressing movies of that time--the early part of the decade was especially good for film.)

I have issues with the film--I don't think it deserves the praise it's getting, but I also recognize it's trying to do a lot of things at once--right now I'm just not sure I find what it's doing very convincing or compelling. That said, I look forward to seeing it again.

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I have no interest in think pieces about current politics and how this movie fits into all that.

Too bad. TLJ is great because it sits firmly in today's culture. Even manages to raise some pretty interesting questions about it, too.

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I have no interest in think pieces about current politics and how this movie fits into all that.

Too bad. TLJ is great because it sits firmly in today's culture. Even manages to raise some pretty interesting questions about it, too.

Are you sure you’re not talking about the best movie of the year—GET OUT? I know the current fad is to explicate everything’s political subtext and how it reflects trendy cultural issues, but that’s a negative trend for the creation of art, all of which needn’t carry those particular weights (there are other important weights to carry). If I didn’t make clear, I reject the baby boomer thesis in that article you posted specifically because Star Wars’ popularity and uniqueness sprung from its universality and its mining of archetypes not bound by one culture or one time—that these stories take place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away is essential not just to their appeal but to their identity. My quick take is that TLJ is not a great movie, but if it is judged to be one 40 years from now I bet it’ll be despite whatever questions it may raise about our moment. To the extent that it does sit firmly in today’s culture it will be considered more of an artifact than art.

I’m not even sure these reviewers are necessarily correct in their “deep” analysis—many are predisposed or have be trained to view everything through a certain lens—my problems with the film have more to do with basic failures of narrative and consistency. There’s no problem with subverting some of the expectations of Star Wars fans, but Johnson makes a fetish out of subversion—practically subverting the whole enterprise out of existence, which begs the question—what’s the point of Star Wars movie? I think either he didn’t understand the point, or he wasn’t up to the task of riding that particular beast.

BTW, I hope you and your family had a wonderful holiday. <3

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I have no interest in think pieces about current politics and how this movie fits into all that.

Too bad. TLJ is great because it sits firmly in today's culture. Even manages to raise some pretty interesting questions about it, too.

Are you sure you’re not talking about the best movie of the year—GET OUT? I know the current fad is to explicate everything’s political subtext and how it reflects trendy cultural issues, but that’s a negative trend for the creation of art, all of which needn’t carry those particular weights (there are other important weights to carry). If I didn’t make clear, I reject the baby boomer thesis in that article you posted specifically because Star Wars’ popularity and uniqueness sprung from its universality and its mining of archetypes not bound by one culture or one time—that these stories take place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away is essential not just to their appeal but to their identity. My quick take is that TLJ is not a great movie, but if it is judged to be one 40 years from now I bet it’ll be despite whatever questions it may raise about our moment. To the extent that it does sit firmly in today’s culture it will be considered more of an artifact than art.

I’m not even sure these reviewers are necessarily correct in their “deep” analysis—many are predisposed or have be trained to view everything through a certain lens—my problems with the film have more to do with basic failures of narrative and consistency. There’s no problem with subverting some of the expectations of Star Wars fans, but Johnson makes a fetish out of subversion—practically subverting the whole enterprise out of existence, which begs the question—what’s the point of Star Wars movie? I think either he didn’t understand the point, or he wasn’t up to the task of riding that particular beast.

BTW, I hope you and your family had a wonderful holiday. <3

I didn't find anything in the movie to be overly reflective of "today's culture" or anything like that. I did find it relevant, but in ways that I'd argue are more universal. I think the movie did a nice job of exploring the tensions that can exist between generations. The disappointment that younger generations feel when they realize that their "heroes" are not the super-human beings they thought they were. The grief that elders face when they realize they've repeated the mistakes of their forefathers. The way younger generations must force themselves to break out from underneath their elders and build their own lives, without losing sight of the fact that their elders often do know better. That the same drive and determination that makes youth so powerful can also lead to reckless mistakes and dire consequences.

The common critique against TLJ is that it "throws away everything that Star Wars is about", or something along those lines. I didn't get that from the movie at all. To me, TLJ perfectly retained the essence and the meaning behind Star Wars. What it cast aside was the misplaced emphasis that so many fans have put towards certain characters. The message of Star Wars can be found in Luke Skywalkers ACTIONS... not in "the man himself". It's easy for us to forget that Luke was always portrayed as someone who was prone to giving up, that he has a dark side to his temperament, and that he gets things wrong at least as often as he gets things right. But when it really counts, he overcomes those weaknesses. And his character in TLJ is 100% in keeping with those traits.

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It's called ForceTime. Rey and Kylo love it!

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I thought it was Forcebook Messenger.

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...what I would have written up if I had the time to do so. It's a bit silly, and there are a few minor things they bring up that I think differently of, but over all... this.

"For the record, I don't think this is terrible. It's sporadically interesting."

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I watched it earlier, and there was a lot to agree with. I don’t agree with all of it, and IX could do a lot if Abrams decides he wants to actually try something that doesn’t just rip Return of the Jedi or something else shamelessly. But who knows. I look forward to seeing how it all ends, whether it’s with a whimper or a bang. Oh, and I absolutely cannot wait for the Plinkett review.

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I enjoyed it immensely the first time, even while feeling a little odd about the pacing.

I liked it more on the second viewing. The pacing doesn't feel as bad, just from knowing where it's going. The scene with Leia in space still looks real dumb.

A beautiful movie.

I'm a little nervous about what JJ Abrams might do in Episode IX, now, though. He likes mystery box bullshit too much, and I can see him going the "Kylo Ren was just fucking with you, you're parents were totally ----" route, or bringing Snoke back in some stupid way. On the other hand, I'm optimistic and eager to see where it goes from here.

I find myself more interested in what Star Wars is doing than I ever have been in my life, and I've always really like Star Wars.

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