Skill Up reviews Curse of Osiris: "F*** these guys."

So if you remember, a while back, I mentioned a YouTuber that I could actually stand, Skill Up. He was a huge Destiny 1 fan, and he enjoyed Destiny 2, despite its flaws and obvious backwards steps, but as has become a standard for us over the past three years, the potential of the game was what he looked forward to.

Until now. It a bit depressing to listen to this video, and connect to it on a level that I really didn't think about.

Remember when I said that my brother loves most everything about Destiny 2 except raiding? He told me yesterday that he had deleted the game already after hitting the lockouts. As soon as he was hit with the inability to do the things that he loved, he ditched the game. Zero tolerance, zero patience, zero attempts to work with what was available to him. It's a bit weird, but I'm kind of glad that he doesn't let himself get manipulated into accepting Bungie's missteps. He said that he might download it again later, clearly not having any ill will, but it's interesting that he doesn't suffer from the same thing so many of us do, where we lower our expectations in order to continue to get something out of the game. And I say that without having hit a lockout, but I haven't even finished the final story mission in the DLC.

Anyway, he recommends Double Fine's Gang Beasts as a fun game to play with friends instead, and I'm probably going to take him up on that. The last time I played Destiny 2, Cane and I had a long discussion about how we weren't really having any fun doing the adventures (and we actually broke one)...

Also recommended, Skill Up's video on the history of Loot Boxes, and his optimistic hope for their decline. Informative stuff!

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Remember when I said that my brother loves most everything about Destiny 2 except raiding? He told me yesterday that he had deleted the game already after hitting the lockouts. As soon as he was hit with the inability to do the things that he loved, he ditched the game. Zero tolerance, zero patience, zero attempts to work with what was available to him.

WHAT LOCKOUTS?! Seriously. From where I'm standing, Des2ny got rid of all the barriers!

I played through the story missions for Curse of Osiris ONCE, then did nothing else until the raid lair. I didn't have to grind strikes. I didn't have to level up guns. And my light level was not a problem at all.

Where does your brother feel like he's being held back? I'm genuinely curious. Des2ny seems to be the least frustrating of the two games when it comes to not putting bullshit in your way.

Anyway, he recommends Double Fine's Gang Beasts as a fun game to play with friends instead, and I'm probably going to take him up on that.

Gang Beasts on on the level of Mario Party dude. It's super cool for maybe 15 minutes. Just my opinion.

Anyway, Life is Strange Before the Storm concludes tomorrow!

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Remember when I said that my brother loves most everything about Destiny 2 except raiding? He told me yesterday that he had deleted the game already after hitting the lockouts. As soon as he was hit with the inability to do the things that he loved, he ditched the game. Zero tolerance, zero patience, zero attempts to work with what was available to him.

WHAT LOCKOUTS?! Seriously. From where I'm standing, Des2ny got rid of all the barriers!

He didn't buy the DLC. I already told him that the things he's locked out of will be opened up again, so he figured he'd play again at some point in January.

Anyway, he recommends Double Fine's Gang Beasts as a fun game to play with friends instead, and I'm probably going to take him up on that.

Gang Beasts on on the level of Mario Party dude. It's super cool for maybe 15 minutes. Just my opinion.

I imagine that it's fun for longer if you have friends.
Fortunately, we have some of those IRL ones! :P

Anyway, Life is Strange Before the Storm concludes tomorrow!

I'm actually not interested in this game at all. Probably because every part of it is a foregone conclusion.

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Anyway, Life is Strange Before the Storm concludes tomorrow!

I'm actually not interested in this game at all. Probably because every part of it is a foregone conclusion.

It's been very surprising and affecting so far. Possibly even better than the original. You're wrong here :-p

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Curse of Osiris is more Destiny, and more Destiny is good even if the new game is worse than the old game. Is it worth your time? Yes, if you like playing Destiny. No, if you DON'T like playing Destiny, and want more story or loot that is worthwhile. Does it have replay value? Not really, no more than normal Destiny 2. Should he have expected it to? Fuck no. I don't know why he actually assumed Bungie would fix something in the game. They made changes to Destiny with TTK, but it was just normal Destiny with a story, worse guns, and more systematic grinding for guns, if not for materials. Destiny 2 ain't gonna reinvent the wheel that is Destiny 2 in one quick expansion.

If you struggle to find a reason to play a video game, guess what, you weren't having fun, you don't actually like playing Destiny. You like the side things. Perfectly fine, and Destiny 2 is worse. You shouldn't play.

So you know what? It's his fault. He says the game is good, but now, more game means it's not good anymore because he expected more game to be better. I discount his opinion whatever.

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I would actually like to say that, in my personal perspective, CoO actually provides a better campaign experience than Vanilla D2. I’ve played theough Vanilla 6 times and CoO 4 times. I didn’t watch the video because I actually have never liked that guys videos. I find CoO encounters are actually more enjoyable on subsequent playthroughs in comparison to most of Vanilla.

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So much of what I watch and read starts off:

"I didn't really like Destiny, or wanted to like it but didn't, but I could be moved to change my mind if only Bungie would do..."

... and then comes the list of things to change.

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For me at least, its adding extra sting to the mix. One of the worst moments for the new expansion for me, was getting a Telesto from the new Xur engram. A new ENGRAM/CONCEPT in a new DLC in a Sequel game, and I get a gun that I could have cared less about in D1. If they want to bring back old guns, that is awesome and I support that. However, to me, it feels like a way to buffer "new content" numbers, instead of, like, "new content" or whatever that is. Add the old guns back, but don't lock them behind a DLC. They aren't new. I already had to pay to RNG unlock them once.

I am still holding out hope that Destiny 2 becomes the game we all want it to be, but for now its fun to get on and play with friends. Its no place to live for me, as far as games go.

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For me at least, its adding extra sting to the mix. One of the worst moments for the new expansion for me, was getting a Telesto from the new Xur engram. A new ENGRAM/CONCEPT in a new DLC in a Sequel game, and I get a gun that I could have cared less about in D1. If they want to bring back old guns, that is awesome and I support that. However, to me, it feels like a way to buffer "new content" numbers, instead of, like, "new content" or whatever that is. Add the old guns back, but don't lock them behind a DLC. They aren't new. I already had to pay to RNG unlock them once.

Totally (well, besides the "could have cared less" screw-up. It's "couldn't have cared less"). If they're bringing forward items from the last game, they shouldn't be DLC locked, and honestly, they shouldn't be nerfed (Jade Rabbit sucks now, is objectively worse by design, and the exotic perk apparently doesn't trigger on bosses like it should, as just one example).

I am still holding out hope that Destiny 2 becomes the game we all want it to be, but for now its fun to get on and play with friends. Its no place to live for me, as far as games go.

Yeah. It's fun enough, but the huge decrease in content was bound to hurt it, and Bungie could have headed it off by making sure that the existing content had depth, but as Skill Up explains, they simply phoned it in, and the neat ideas were executed in a very shallow way, so the end result is just an objectively weaker product than even Vanilla was (it's not "more Destiny", it's "objectively worse Destiny").

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(it's not "more Destiny", it's "objectively worse Destiny").

That’s the dumbest thing I’ve read all day, and I’ve been to Reddit a handful of times today.

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(it's not "more Destiny", it's "objectively worse Destiny").

That’s the dumbest thing I’ve read all day, and I’ve been to Reddit a handful of times today.

He explains it well in the video, and it's something that I noticed right away as well.

The way the Infinite Forest is designed (and it's arguably where the majority of the content takes place), is a "totally missed the point" version of tilesets. You have very little reason to play the content as the developers intended, and even when you do, the tilesets are poorly designed. You can simply get above and away from all enemies, and pick them off. This is how the majority of the content is presented. This is not subjective, this is not "more of the same". This is worse than what we've gotten before.

The mission in the EDZ, where you go find the Disciples of Osiris?
The entirety of it was in the game at launch (not the enemy spawns of course). You can drive there freely during the Lake of Shadows strike. You can even take an alternate path through the shore that is unavailable in the actual mission!
The mission that is almost literally just the Pyramidion strike removes elements of the strike, while adding almost nothing new. You are running a less-content version of that existing strike!

The weapon quests remove goal variety in place of grinding public events, the strikes have less unique content than before, and if you're on Xbox, you have less Crucible maps in this DLC than in any other DLC before!

I mean, I can still have fun, and I like the game well enough, but remember when I wasn't too hyped about the game before launch and people shook their heads at me? This is what I was worried about. Less effort, worse design, weaker content.

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Destiny 2: 8/10. Curse of Osiris: 2/10. Destiny 2 + CoO: 5/10.

Skill Up is handed a ribeye.

"Well, this is still good. I prefer filet mignon but whatever."

Skill Up is handed a top sirloin steak in addition to the ribeye.

"Now, because this steak is bad, the ribeye is bad. All steak is bad. I hate steak."

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Destiny 2: 8/10. Curse of Osiris: 2/10. Destiny 2 + CoO: 5/10.

Skill Up is handed a ribeye.

"Well, this is still good. I prefer filet mignon but whatever."

Skill Up is handed a top sirloin steak in addition to the ribeye.

"Now, because this steak is bad, the ribeye is bad. All steak is bad. I hate steak."

I don’t think that’s a fair representation of his argument. Regardless of whether or not you or I agree with him, he did a fair job of presenting his opinions and the way his thoughts on the game shifted over time.
He was already disappointed by D2, feeling it was a substantial step down from D1. But he was willing to give Bungie the benefit of the doubt. Curse of Osiris changed that for him, and I think his reasons are fair. His points about the storytelling, Microtransactions, recycled gear, and the horrible encounter design of the Infinite Forrest all rang true for me (even though I don’t share the same final outlook on the game that he does).

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Destiny 2: 8/10. Curse of Osiris: 2/10. Destiny 2 + CoO: 5/10.

Literally nobody has said anything like this.

Skill Up is handed a ribeye.

"Well, this is still good. I prefer filet mignon but whatever."

Skill Up is handed a top sirloin steak in addition to the ribeye.

"Now, because this steak is bad, the ribeye is bad. All steak is bad. I hate steak."

Unless you're being deliberately dense, neither of us have said that the DLC has made Vanilla Destiny 2 content worse. We've both pointed out that the DLC executes elements in a worse way than Destiny 2 has. The vanilla content is still there, and it's still good where it's good, but where it's bad, the DLC has done very little to correct that. The content in this DLC is less fun than vanilla content overall, and a large chunk of that is from the design choices. You can't look me in the eye and tell me that the gameplay spaces are on par with Destiny 2's. Ignore the skyboxes, and look at the play spaces. Then look at weapon quests, then non-eververse content, etc.

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Unless you're being deliberately dense, neither of us have said that the DLC has made Vanilla Destiny 2 content worse.

but as Skill Up explains, they simply phoned it in, and the neat ideas were executed in a very shallow way, so the end result is just an objectively weaker product than even Vanilla was (it's not "more Destiny", it's "objectively worse Destiny").

You're saying vanilla is fine. Adding something to the vanilla, which in no way changes vanilla, makes everything worse. You're saying that if Destiny 2 came with Curse of Osiris already in the game it's worse than vanilla destiny 2.

Or, I don't understand the complaints.

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Skill Up: D1 Final > D1 Vanilla >= D2 Vanilla > D2 w/ CoO > CoO Itself.

CoO modified the way D2 operates enough to make it worse than it already was, in his opinion. Seeing the decline he just reached his breaking point.

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Skill Up: D1 Final > D1 Vanilla >= D2 Vanilla > D2 w/ CoO > CoO Itself.

CoO modified the way D2 operates enough to make it worse than it already was, in his opinion. Seeing the decline he just reached his breaking point.

And that makes absolutely no sense at all to me. CoO doesn't change anything about the way Destiny operates.

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It locked out existing content and a decent chunk of the new loot is eververse specific or unlocked via overly grindy mechanics. He explained this all pretty well in the video. You can disagree but his opinion is clear and at least based on facts.

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It locked out existing content

For all of three days. That's not relevant anymore. It's not even worth talking about.

and a decent chunk of the new loot is eververse specific

That doesn't change the way Destiny operates. Most of the loot in the base game is also Eververse specific. It's literally the only way to earn emotes, ships, sparrows, and Ghosts. Literally nothing has changed in that regard.

unlocked via overly grindy mechanics.

Oh, you mean like hopping around shooting things in the head for MIDA? You mean like grinding out Public Events for tokens? You mean like having to turn in five scout rifles which took me over a week to do?

The Lost Prophecies are too grindy for my tastes, too, but it's not any worse than the rest of the game. In fact, it's probably better--you do a specific set of activities for a specific weapon, rather than public events for tokens to turn in for a random reward.

It's also literally exactly what most of reddit and most streamers asked for. They specifically wanted a reason to grind strikes again. Well, they got what they asked for.

You can disagree but his opinion is clear and at least based on facts.

It seems mostly based on bullshit, honestly. We must have different definitions of what a fact is.

I'll say it again. Nothing about how Destiny operates has changed.

He explained this all pretty well in the video.

I wouldn't know. I watched approximately four minutes before I got annoyed and turned it off.

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He did explain it all in the video. He has gripes, but they do not add up to his ultimate conclusion.

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It locked out existing content

For all of three days. That's not relevant anymore. It's not even worth talking about.

Wrong. It was a week of active lockout before Bungie addressed what they planned to do, if you took the five seconds required to look at the video's upload date, he made his comments before Bungie said that they were going to reverse the lockouts, so at the time, yes it was worth talking about, because it was an existing issue that had yet to be addressed, and did in fact make vanilla Destiny 2 worse for people who didn't buy the DLC.

and a decent chunk of the new loot is eververse specific

That doesn't change the way Destiny operates. Most of the loot in the base game is also Eververse specific. It's literally the only way to earn emotes, ships, sparrows, and Ghosts. Literally nothing has changed in that regard.

Mama's wrong again! In the base game, the majority of loot exists outside of Eververse.

In CoO, the majority of new loot is in Eververse. Sure, you could argue that stuff like armor ornaments balance it out, if you really want to (even though that was more of a Live Team change to the game in general as a result of backlash, rather than content made for CoO, and a good chunk of that is still to come), and I'm totally glad that they added that, but it doesn't matter what content is Eververse exclusive, the problem is how much is Eververse exclusive. That said, it's all cosmetic, but in a loot-driven game like Destiny, having a path to specific loot is more important than pulling the slot machine that is Eververse.

unlocked via overly grindy mechanics.

Oh, you mean like hopping around shooting things in the head for MIDA? You mean like grinding out Public Events for tokens? You mean like having to turn in five scout rifles which took me over a week to do?

The Lost Prophecies are too grindy for my tastes, too, but it's not any worse than the rest of the game. In fact, it's probably better--you do a specific set of activities for a specific weapon, rather than public events for tokens to turn in for a random reward.

It's also literally exactly what most of reddit and most streamers asked for. They specifically wanted a reason to grind strikes again. Well, they got what they asked for.

He elaborates well on this, but since you didn't watch the video, you're backflipping to conclusions. Don't do that.
You seem to think "streamers asked for more grind!" When they have been asking for more reasons to play the game. Totally not the same thing. If Bungie had put things in like challenging missions, or had given people clear, tangible goals (the Black Spindle mission is used as a direct example), rather than simply telling folks to grind the same Public events 20+ times, people would be happy!
But they didn't.
If they had some cosmetics as rewards for doing something specific, people would be happy!
But they didn't.

And the thing is that Destiny 1 had these things. It had strike-specific loot. It had exotic quests. It had cosmetics tied to different activities, it had alternate paths to specific content. Was there grinding involved? Yes, but it was a narrower path to the goal. Now, it's all a roll of the die with Eververse, or grinding public event, after public event, after public event...

You can disagree but his opinion is clear and at least based on facts.

It seems mostly based on bullshit, honestly. We must have different definitions of what a fact is.

Clearly. It's a fact that the he goes to various lengths to point out and provide evidence to support his facts. It's a fact that you didn't watch the video and are making opinions based off of a refusal to take your blinders off, simply because "it's not a problem for me, so it's obviously not a problem!".

I'll say it again. Nothing about how Destiny operates has changed.

Except you are wrong yet again. Destiny 2 has operated differently since CoO launched. In a lot of ways, it's for the better (You can buy specific armor from vendors, and unlock their ornaments through completing specific goals!). For those who wish to consume new content, the way missions operate, the way you get the unique loot, it's all a huge step back from what Destiny 2 had initially. And if you didn't buy the DLC, you still have less content than before (can't do Prestige Nightfall, for example).

He explained this all pretty well in the video.

I wouldn't know. I watched approximately four minutes before I got annoyed and turned it off.

Look man, just because something doesn't pander to you and says only what you want to hear, doesn't mean you should cover your ears and avoid listening to it. The reason this guy isn't yet-another-cancerous-Youtuber is because he goes out of his way to explain concepts before he makes opinions, and he actually supports his arguments. I don't agree with everything he says, but he does a great job of opening the door for debate by giving solid evidence to support what he says, without repeating himself over and over to try to convince you.

But if you wanna stick to your infowars... ;)

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I was going to answer this point by point, but I don't have the energy, or, frankly, the desire.

I'll just say that I don't actually care what this guy thinks. I stopped watching because he immediately came off like every other sanctimonious streamer that thinks Destiny should be a game designed solely for them. Also his restaurant analogy was fucking stupid.

More importantly though, I just have better things to do with my time than spend thirty minutes listening to some guy tell me why he hates something I quite enjoy. What's to be gained?

P.S. The Raid Lair alone is worth the asking price, so the rest of the expansion is just icing on the cake.

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I was going to answer this point by point, but I don't have the energy, or, frankly, the desire.

I'll just say that I don't actually care what this guy thinks. I stopped watching because he immediately came off like every other sanctimonious streamer that thinks Destiny should be a game designed solely for them. Also his restaurant analogy was fucking stupid.

I think it's fun watching a video from someone people think isn't just another X. There are Madden vloggers, baseball vloggers, game streamers, let's players, and so on. Unfortunately, if they have a following, they're usually just another X.

Like, this guy puts thought into what he says and doesn't start off with "HEY IT'S YA BOI SKILL UP BACK AGAIN WITH DAILY DESTINY VIDEOS LIKE COMMENT SUBSCRIBE CALL ME FOR AVON BEAUTY PRODUCTS," but he's pretty much like the other ones.

You really find the abnormal ones with fewer than ten thousand views. They don't interact much with their few fans, they have specific goals, as opposed to just putting out videos where they navel gaze or find an excuse to do something. They're also often the most boring.

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I was going to answer this point by point, but I don't have the energy, or, frankly, the desire.

I'll just say that I don't actually care what this guy thinks. I stopped watching because he immediately came off like every other sanctimonious streamer that thinks Destiny should be a game designed solely for them. Also his restaurant analogy was fucking stupid.

I think it's fun watching a video from someone people think isn't just another X. There are Madden vloggers, baseball vloggers, game streamers, let's players, and so on. Unfortunately, if they have a following, they're usually just another X.

Like, this guy puts thought into what he says and doesn't start off with "HEY IT'S YA BOI SKILL UP BACK AGAIN WITH DAILY DESTINY VIDEOS LIKE COMMENT SUBSCRIBE CALL ME FOR AVON BEAUTY PRODUCTS," but he's pretty much like the other ones.

You really find the abnormal ones with fewer than ten thousand views. They don't interact much with their few fans, they have specific goals, as opposed to just putting out videos where they navel gaze or find an excuse to do something. They're also often the most boring.

But see I've watched some of his other videos and he usually has some really solid opinions. Additionally, my opinions are pretty close to his. In addition to most of what he said, I personally feel like games that try to walk this tightrope that is the "game economy" need to avoid slipping up with so many poor decisions AND bugs. Every single one affects the trust users can put into the systems that govern how their time is rewarded (outside of the innate reward of playing the game). You could argue that said innate reward is enough, but if that were the case we wouldn't need all these investment systems. They exist to give you more of a reason to play, so they matter. And as SkillUp noted, Bungie hasn't really made good on their mistakes. Their reactions are subpar at best and they've fallen short of plenty of other developers when it comes to making amends over missteps, intentional or accidental.

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Except his conclusion that Destiny 2 is worse now, when it isn't. There's more of it, and he doesn't like the new stuff. That means Destiny 2 is only slightly better. His complaints about changes to the base game from the DLC are great, and hyper valid 3 years ago, but we now know that's how the game operates.

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Except his conclusion that Destiny 2 is worse now, when it isn't. There's more of it, and he doesn't like the new stuff. That means Destiny 2 is only slightly better. His complaints about changes to the base game from the DLC are great, and hyper valid 3 years ago, but we now know that's how the game operates.

His conclusion is not simply that Destiny 2 is “worse now”, his conclusion is that CoO shows that Bungie has no ability or intention of making the kind of improvements that he feels the game needs. He is making the argument that Bungie released a sub-par product with D1, then slowly improved it over time, but then with D2 they fell even further back, seemingly “unlearning” many of the improvements that they’d made. CoO is just the final straw for him, as it is literally just more D2, but with the added problems of the creepingly invasive Microtransactions.

So he’s not saying that CoO makes D2 worse, he’s saying that this is 1 sub-par product too many for him to continue supporting Bungie.

I don’t land in the same place he does, but I think he makes several valid points. Storytelling in Destiny is still abysmal. For a loot based game, the loot in D2 is mostly uninspired. The notion of “taking away our old guns” just so they can be brought back in D2 and passed off as “new content” is lame. When you break down the missions in CoO, it really does feel like a pathetic excuse for an expansion (you play through a nerfed version of a strike from D2, go back to an old part of the EDZ, and run through the Infinite Forrest like 8 times).

Personally, I still have loads of fun with D2, but I have drastically different expectations for it than I did back with D1. I think D2 is a great game to jump in and have some fun with friends once or twice per week. And unlike D1, D2 allows that kind of approach, which is great. But for those who want a game that they’ll come back to every day, D2 is many steps back from D1, and I can understand how some hardcore fans might hit a point where they say “I’m done”.

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CoO is just the final straw for him, as it is literally just more D2, but with the added problems of the creepingly invasive Microtransactions.

Once again, I'm having trouble squaring opinions like this with my own personal experience.

Engrams have been dropping like rain in CoO. I get several in a night's worth of playing. I have more ships than I have room for, I'm gonna have to build a new garage for all the sparrows. Shaders are causing me angst because there are so many flavors I'm having to vault some of them, and my vault is full.

I guess if there were a specific emote or a specific piece of armor or whatever that I absolutely HAD to have, and the deluge of engrams hadn't provided me with enough silver dust to buy it, MAYBE I'd consider spending cash. But at the current drop rate (which, to be fair, probably won't continue for much longer), I just can't imagine wanting to buy more.

The microtransactions are LESS invasive than they were 2 weeks ago, because the rate of free stuff dropping is higher. I have trouble with calling that 'creepingly', unless you mean that it's creeping backwards.

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CoO is just the final straw for him, as it is literally just more D2, but with the added problems of the creepingly invasive Microtransactions.

Once again, I'm having trouble squaring opinions like this with my own personal experience.

Engrams have been dropping like rain in CoO. I get several in a night's worth of playing. I have more ships than I have room for, I'm gonna have to build a new garage for all the sparrows. Shaders are causing me angst because there are so many flavors I'm having to vault some of them, and my vault is full.

I guess if there were a specific emote or a specific piece of armor or whatever that I absolutely HAD to have, and the deluge of engrams hadn't provided me with enough silver dust to buy it, MAYBE I'd consider spending cash. But at the current drop rate (which, to be fair, probably won't continue for much longer), I just can't imagine wanting to buy more.

The microtransactions are LESS invasive than they were 2 weeks ago, because the rate of free stuff dropping is higher. I have trouble with calling that 'creepingly', unless you mean that it's creeping backwards.

I was thinking this exact same thing.

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CoO is just the final straw for him, as it is literally just more D2, but with the added problems of the creepingly invasive Microtransactions.

Once again, I'm having trouble squaring opinions like this with my own personal experience.

Engrams have been dropping like rain in CoO. I get several in a night's worth of playing. I have more ships than I have room for, I'm gonna have to build a new garage for all the sparrows. Shaders are causing me angst because there are so many flavors I'm having to vault some of them, and my vault is full.

I guess if there were a specific emote or a specific piece of armor or whatever that I absolutely HAD to have, and the deluge of engrams hadn't provided me with enough silver dust to buy it, MAYBE I'd consider spending cash. But at the current drop rate (which, to be fair, probably won't continue for much longer), I just can't imagine wanting to buy more.

The microtransactions are LESS invasive than they were 2 weeks ago, because the rate of free stuff dropping is higher. I have trouble with calling that 'creepingly', unless you mean that it's creeping backwards.

As he says in the video, his issue is not based around the rate of Eververse drops, but rather the fact that the majority of new items added with this expansion are eververse items. One could certainly make the argument that he's making a problem out of nothing, since eververse items can still drop without spending any real money, but there is some validity to the point that an increasingly large percentage of the total "stuff" available in Destiny is being shuffled into the real-money marketplace.

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His conclusion is not simply that Destiny 2 is “worse now”, his conclusion is that CoO shows that Bungie has no ability or intention of making the kind of improvements that he feels the game needs.

I mean, wasn't everyone super disappointed in Vanilla D1 and the DLC was the straw that broke the camel's back. Except for the raid, which many loved but thought was worse than VoG.

Curse of Osiris has much better missions than TDB (Rasputin's Vault excepted), and a raid activity that many consider superior to the first D2 raid.

You hear valid critique, I hear the same stuff I've been hearing since Destiny shipped. The game is not going to change to meet everyone's hopes/dreams and people are naive if they think that at this point. IMHO, D2 is largely a much better game than D1. The only exception is that I don't feel as powerful, so... add more supers and abilities for me on that magic checklist of hopes/dreams.

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Introduced the most good weapons and the best raid to date.

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Introduced the most good weapons and the best raid to date.

Debatable about the weapons. VoG4lyfe. That being said, Crota is my most-played raid and for various reasons is probably my favorite due to the experiences and company with whom I played it.

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The first two CE encounters are the best in the whole of Destiny. Bar none.

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The first two CE encounters are the best in the whole of Destiny. Bar none.

Nah, Skolas is the best encounter in D1, and the Mines section of the Raid Lair might top that.

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VoG weapons weren’t expansion related, though. Black Hammer and Ruin Wings greatly increased my fun levels in Destiny. Plus the Abyss chest dropped my Gjallarhorn. Unbeatable expansion for me.

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VoG weapons weren’t expansion related, though. Black Hammer and Ruin Wings greatly increased my fun levels in Destiny. Plus the Abyss chest dropped my Gjallarhorn. Unbeatable expansion for me.

Check-mate. You win. The trifecta of Fate-bringer Black Hammer and Gjallarhorn with Ruin Wings on a Titan was one of my favorite builds ever.

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VoG weapons weren’t expansion related, though. Black Hammer and Ruin Wings greatly increased my fun levels in Destiny. Plus the Abyss chest dropped my Gjallarhorn. Unbeatable expansion for me.

Check-mate. You win. The trifecta of Fate-bringer Black Hammer and Gjallarhorn with Ruin Wings on a Titan was one of my favorite builds ever.

I just got chills thinking about it :)

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I ran that exact loadout for 4 months and it was a blast. Oh well.

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If Bungie had put things in like challenging missions, or had given people clear, tangible goals (the Black Spindle mission is used as a direct example), rather than simply telling folks to grind the same Public events 20+ times, people would be happy!

This (20+ public events to earn a new weapon) is a number he used, and it's wrong, and I'm pretty surprised to see you echo it.

I don't think I did 20 public events to earn ALL 6.

The only thing you earn from PEs are the Radiolarian Cultures - and they drop from all sorts of things around Mercury. Most weapons needed 10 or 20 of them, you get 1-2 from a Public Event, but you also get one from most of the Yellow-Bar High Value Targets around Mercury, and occasionally from random chests. The first weapon I earned took the three heroic adventures, 2 public events, and some random patrolling around Mercury. The others took a few Heroic Strikes in addition - Paradox Amplifiers drop from there. (They're supposed to also drop from Crucible matches, but I don't think I earned any that way.)

None of them took anywhere near 20 activities, much less 20 Public Events. It doesn't seem fair to blame Bungie because he was doing it in a pretty inefficient way - and while I could understand the mistake being made in the video (the Prophesies were pretty new when he made it, maybe he hadn't figured out all the ways to get the drops he needed), it's really surprising to see you repeating his (incorrect) words.

(My normally horrible RNG luck was reversed for the Prophesies - I think I got 4 Concentrated Paradox Amplifiers and at least 5 (maybe 6) Concentrated Radiolarian Cultures as drops along the way, saving me quite a bit of playtime. For my last Prophecy, a single Heroic Strike dropped 2 blue Paradox Amplifiers, all by itself. So I probably didn't have to do as much playing as most people did - but NOBODY needed to do 20+ PEs to earn that first one (which is the only one that could be earned without Paradox Amplifiers anyway). If they did it that way, it's because they didn't know any better, or because they LIKED strikes.

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If Bungie had put things in like challenging missions, or had given people clear, tangible goals (the Black Spindle mission is used as a direct example), rather than simply telling folks to grind the same Public events 20+ times, people would be happy!

This (20+ public events to earn a new weapon) is a number he used, and it's wrong, and I'm pretty surprised to see you echo it.

I don't think I did 20 public events to earn ALL 6.

The only thing you earn from PEs are the Radiolarian Cultures - and they drop from all sorts of things around Mercury. Most weapons needed 10 or 20 of them, you get 1-2 from a Public Event, but you also get one from most of the Yellow-Bar High Value Targets around Mercury, and occasionally from random chests. The first weapon I earned took the three heroic adventures, 2 public events, and some random patrolling around Mercury. The others took a few Heroic Strikes in addition - Paradox Amplifiers drop from there. (They're supposed to also drop from Crucible matches, but I don't think I earned any that way.)

None of them took anywhere near 20 activities, much less 20 Public Events. It doesn't seem fair to blame Bungie because he was doing it in a pretty inefficient way - and while I could understand the mistake being made in the video (the Prophesies were pretty new when he made it, maybe he hadn't figured out all the ways to get the drops he needed), it's really surprising to see you repeating his (incorrect) words.

(My normally horrible RNG luck was reversed for the Prophesies - I think I got 4 Concentrated Paradox Amplifiers and at least 5 (maybe 6) Concentrated Radiolarian Cultures as drops along the way, saving me quite a bit of playtime. For my last Prophecy, a single Heroic Strike dropped 2 blue Paradox Amplifiers, all by itself. So I probably didn't have to do as much playing as most people did - but NOBODY needed to do 20+ PEs to earn that first one (which is the only one that could be earned without Paradox Amplifiers anyway). If they did it that way, it's because they didn't know any better, or because they LIKED strikes.

I found out recently as I was getting stuff for dawning, that it's actually easier to get one of those things from Cayde to find chests (or you could be a silly hunter) and I was just doing a loop in the EDZ at the start. I was getting a TON of Radios from chests. I was getting them way faster than PEs. I get that people want to get these cool weapons, and they figure they have to grind PEs for them, but as Claude explains, you really just have to play the game. And I believe this is how Bungie wants you to do it. If you are making it a grind, don't blame Bungie.

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If Bungie had put things in like challenging missions, or had given people clear, tangible goals (the Black Spindle mission is used as a direct example), rather than simply telling folks to grind the same Public events 20+ times, people would be happy!

This (20+ public events to earn a new weapon) is a number he used, and it's wrong, and I'm pretty surprised to see you echo it.

I don't think I did 20 public events to earn ALL 6.

The only thing you earn from PEs are the Radiolarian Cultures - and they drop from all sorts of things around Mercury. Most weapons needed 10 or 20 of them, you get 1-2 from a Public Event, but you also get one from most of the Yellow-Bar High Value Targets around Mercury, and occasionally from random chests. The first weapon I earned took the three heroic adventures, 2 public events, and some random patrolling around Mercury. The others took a few Heroic Strikes in addition - Paradox Amplifiers drop from there. (They're supposed to also drop from Crucible matches, but I don't think I earned any that way.)

None of them took anywhere near 20 activities, much less 20 Public Events. It doesn't seem fair to blame Bungie because he was doing it in a pretty inefficient way - and while I could understand the mistake being made in the video (the Prophesies were pretty new when he made it, maybe he hadn't figured out all the ways to get the drops he needed), it's really surprising to see you repeating his (incorrect) words.

(My normally horrible RNG luck was reversed for the Prophesies - I think I got 4 Concentrated Paradox Amplifiers and at least 5 (maybe 6) Concentrated Radiolarian Cultures as drops along the way, saving me quite a bit of playtime. For my last Prophecy, a single Heroic Strike dropped 2 blue Paradox Amplifiers, all by itself. So I probably didn't have to do as much playing as most people did - but NOBODY needed to do 20+ PEs to earn that first one (which is the only one that could be earned without Paradox Amplifiers anyway). If they did it that way, it's because they didn't know any better, or because they LIKED strikes.

heh. That's RNG for you. I've done about a twenty public events and I've not gotten a single Concentrated Radiolarian Cultures. Only the green ones. Which means I needed to trade 10 (I think) in for one blue concentrated one. My current verse (verse 4 I think) requires three (YIKES!) Now I've managed get find a few more greens from other area chests, but still RNGsus is not loving me right now. lol

I didn't know you could get them from the Yellow bar enemies around Mercury, so I'll need to give that a shot. I guess there is a bit of a problem when the UI tells me that an item drops from one specific source, but that's not actually the case. Because if it's not, then why even put in that text?

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If Bungie had put things in like challenging missions, or had given people clear, tangible goals (the Black Spindle mission is used as a direct example), rather than simply telling folks to grind the same Public events 20+ times, people would be happy!

This (20+ public events to earn a new weapon) is a number he used, and it's wrong, and I'm pretty surprised to see you echo it.

I don't think I did 20 public events to earn ALL 6.

The only thing you earn from PEs are the Radiolarian Cultures - and they drop from all sorts of things around Mercury. Most weapons needed 10 or 20 of them, you get 1-2 from a Public Event, but you also get one from most of the Yellow-Bar High Value Targets around Mercury, and occasionally from random chests. The first weapon I earned took the three heroic adventures, 2 public events, and some random patrolling around Mercury. The others took a few Heroic Strikes in addition - Paradox Amplifiers drop from there. (They're supposed to also drop from Crucible matches, but I don't think I earned any that way.)

None of them took anywhere near 20 activities, much less 20 Public Events. It doesn't seem fair to blame Bungie because he was doing it in a pretty inefficient way - and while I could understand the mistake being made in the video (the Prophesies were pretty new when he made it, maybe he hadn't figured out all the ways to get the drops he needed), it's really surprising to see you repeating his (incorrect) words.

(My normally horrible RNG luck was reversed for the Prophesies - I think I got 4 Concentrated Paradox Amplifiers and at least 5 (maybe 6) Concentrated Radiolarian Cultures as drops along the way, saving me quite a bit of playtime. For my last Prophecy, a single Heroic Strike dropped 2 blue Paradox Amplifiers, all by itself. So I probably didn't have to do as much playing as most people did - but NOBODY needed to do 20+ PEs to earn that first one (which is the only one that could be earned without Paradox Amplifiers anyway). If they did it that way, it's because they didn't know any better, or because they LIKED strikes.

heh. That's RNG for you. I've done about a twenty public events and I've not gotten a single Concentrated Radiolarian Cultures. Only the green ones. Which means I needed to trade 10 (I think) in for one blue concentrated one. My current verse (verse 4 I think) requires three (YIKES!) Now I've managed get find a few more greens from other area chests, but still RNGsus is not loving me right now. lol

I didn't know you could get them from the Yellow bar enemies around Mercury, so I'll need to give that a shot. I guess there is a bit of a problem when the UI tells me that an item drops from one specific source, but that's not actually the case. Because if it's not, then why even put in that text?

I'm pretty sure it says it drops from Public events and all chests. I'm also pretty sure it says something like "high level enemies"

So it's not all yellow bar enemies, It's usually the enemies that would normally drop a chest after killing them. On Mercury, it's both the guy guarding as well as the guy being guarded. In public events, sometimes an extra yellow guy is spawned, like in the EDZ in the windy cove (I think that is the name) sometimes the cabal dog spawns, he can give you one as well as the boss.

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I'm pretty sure it says it drops from Public events and all chests. I'm also pretty sure it says something like "high level enemies"

It is also possible I don't read things well... lol.

So it's not all yellow bar enemies, It's usually the enemies that would normally drop a chest after killing them. On Mercury, it's both the guy guarding as well as the guy being guarded. In public events, sometimes an extra yellow guy is spawned, like in the EDZ in the windy cove (I think that is the name) sometimes the cabal dog spawns, he can give you one as well as the boss.

Neat. Thanks for the info (and for not just shitting on me). Now if only the Dawning would let me give gifts to you!

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For science, I went in and actually grabbed screenshots. After playing about another 3-4 hours last night I still haven't gotten any Concentrated Radiolarian Culture (CRC) drops.

I'm pretty sure it says it drops from Public events and all chests. I'm also pretty sure it says something like "high-level enemies"

Here's is what it says when you inspect the verse. IMO this is should be the place where it should be clearest on where you should get these.

Next, I visited Vance. He knows things right? Well, the wording here is slightly different and doesn't actually make it any clearer. At this point, though I'm still going to assume "chests" means public event chests (since in my experience, I've never gotten a CRC from destination/enemy chests).

Finally, I inspected the Radiolarian Culture Item. These I have gotten from Public Events, Destination Chests, and (as of last night) high-level enemy chests. So this does actually lead me to believe that CRC could drop from chests other than Public Events but its probably very rare.

"Your experience may vary" should probably be the tagline for any RNG game, but at this point, I am getting a bit frustrated with my experience completing these verses.

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Dang. Your luck with these resources is about like my luck with MasterWorks weapons. (The other night I burned more than 2000 tokens, at a combination of vendors, and got 3 MW weapons from the resulting engrams.)

I was actually going to commiserate about this stuff; I'm working on Prophecy 5, which requires 3 blues each of the Radiolarian Cultures and the Paradox Amplifiers. I had 4 Paradox Amplifiers (green) at the start of the night on Tuesday - we started with 3 Heroic strikes, then did a bunch more stuff. I got 4 Paradox Amplifiers in total (up to 8, out of the 30 I needed). That's why I thought I was going to commiserate with you - 4 hours of playing got me 4 of the 30 I needed. (I realize most of the play we did wasn't targeted at those - but part of my point the other day was "you can just play, they'll drop" - and that wasn't happening on Tuesday.)

I wasn't paying attention last night at all; I was just playing. New character, mostly doing Dawning stuff with Nico. Just looked - I'm at 14 greens and one blue, didn't even notice them drop. We only did 3 strikes (for the weekly milestone) - so anything else dropped elsewhere, I'm not sure where.

RNG can be frustrating, when you want something specific. I can totally get behind that argument. This game is more fun when you're not chasing something specific.

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and while I could understand the mistake being made in the video (the Prophesies were pretty new when he made it, maybe he hadn't figured out all the ways to get the drops he needed), it's really surprising to see you repeating his (incorrect) words.

I haven't finished the main story yet, so I don't have access to any of the adventures that you need to complete to even start getting the Lost Prophecies. That said, I was helping Canecutter last night, and he got one for doing the Public Event on Mercury, and nothing else. We ran the public event again, and he got another.
Also, as Breitzen pointed out, the UI says that you have to do Public Events, and I doubt most people will stay on Mercury to wait for the lone public event long enough to realize that you can get the juice boxes from the Defenders...

Cane said that there's a two part thing, each requiring ten thingies, so we were like "Yeah, no", and we did some Mayhem instead. So yeah, we seem to have made an incorrect deduction based on poor UI and in-game mechanics, but it's a pretty understandable mistake.

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and while I could understand the mistake being made in the video (the Prophesies were pretty new when he made it, maybe he hadn't figured out all the ways to get the drops he needed), it's really surprising to see you repeating his (incorrect) words.

I haven't finished the main story yet, so I don't have access to any of the adventures that you need to complete to even start getting the Lost Prophecies. That said, I was helping Canecutter last night, and he got one for doing the Public Event on Mercury, and nothing else. We ran the public event again, and he got another.
Also, as Breitzen pointed out, the UI says that you have to do Public Events, and I doubt most people will stay on Mercury to wait for the lone public event long enough to realize that you can get the juice boxes from the Defenders...

Cane said that there's a two part thing, each requiring ten thingies, so we were like "Yeah, no", and we did some Mayhem instead. So yeah, we seem to have made an incorrect deduction based on poor UI and in-game mechanics, but it's a pretty understandable mistake.

Okay, fair enough. As a point of reference, I just played to get these; I didn't really do anything I hadn't been doing anyway. Yeah, I paid attention to how many of each resource I had, and I made sure to go back to Vance when I had enough, so there wasn't a lot of downtime between Prophesies... but it's not tough at all to earn these.

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and while I could understand the mistake being made in the video (the Prophesies were pretty new when he made it, maybe he hadn't figured out all the ways to get the drops he needed), it's really surprising to see you repeating his (incorrect) words.

I haven't finished the main story yet, so I don't have access to any of the adventures that you need to complete to even start getting the Lost Prophecies. That said, I was helping Canecutter last night, and he got one for doing the Public Event on Mercury, and nothing else. We ran the public event again, and he got another.
Also, as Breitzen pointed out, the UI says that you have to do Public Events, and I doubt most people will stay on Mercury to wait for the lone public event long enough to realize that you can get the juice boxes from the Defenders...

Cane said that there's a two part thing, each requiring ten thingies, so we were like "Yeah, no", and we did some Mayhem instead. So yeah, we seem to have made an incorrect deduction based on poor UI and in-game mechanics, but it's a pretty understandable mistake.

Okay, fair enough. As a point of reference, I just played to get these; I didn't really do anything I hadn't been doing anyway. Yeah, I paid attention to how many of each resource I had, and I made sure to go back to Vance when I had enough, so there wasn't a lot of downtime between Prophesies... but it's not tough at all to earn these.

The thing is Claude, I'm guessing a good percentage of your playtime is playing while partied up with friends and acquaintances? I typically play alone (yes I'm aware this is meant to be a coop game) so I have less reason to be playing. When the game stands alone by itself, these flaws seem a lot more evident, at least to me.

The biggest thing Bungie has done to shoot themselves in the foot, IMO, is lack of transparency. Not having a clear expectation of how these mechanics (loot, exp, buffs, etc.) work is already frustrating to some; when bugs or questionable decisions arise, it amplifies that frustration. If you're playing the game with others and all the other bits just come along for the ride, it doesn't matter what decisions Bungie made or what bugs exist, it's all ancillary. There are many who put more stock into these systems, however, and those are the folks who are up in arms.

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The biggest thing Bungie has done to shoot themselves in the foot, IMO, is lack of transparency. Not having a clear expectation of how these mechanics (loot, exp, buffs, etc.) work is already frustrating to some; when bugs or questionable decisions arise, it amplifies that frustration. If you're playing the game with others and all the other bits just come along for the ride, it doesn't matter what decisions Bungie made or what bugs exist, it's all ancillary. There are many who put more stock into these systems, however, and those are the folks who are up in arms.

I agree with this. I would say that Bungie has always been about the clean UI, don't think too much about it, just let the play experience be seamless. The one problem with this is that it kind of goes against the RPG nature where hardcore players want those stats, they want to min/max everything. And as you said, when there is any sort of bug or problem, they want to know those stats to figure out what is wrong.

I am a person who loves to know stats. Which is weird because I just don't care in Destiny. And I would say "just add in all the information in there" but I don't want it! I don't want all that clutter. I want to know what I need to do to get stuff, but as for everything else, I would rather figure out drop rates by experiencing it. I don't need to know exactly how much of a bonus I get for something, I just care about the fact that it is a boon. I know that isn't for everyone.

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The biggest thing Bungie has done to shoot themselves in the foot, IMO, is lack of transparency. Not having a clear expectation of how these mechanics (loot, exp, buffs, etc.) work is already frustrating to some; when bugs or questionable decisions arise, it amplifies that frustration. If you're playing the game with others and all the other bits just come along for the ride, it doesn't matter what decisions Bungie made or what bugs exist, it's all ancillary. There are many who put more stock into these systems, however, and those are the folks who are up in arms.

I agree with this. I would say that Bungie has always been about the clean UI, don't think too much about it, just let the play experience be seamless. The one problem with this is that it kind of goes against the RPG nature where hardcore players want those stats, they want to min/max everything. And as you said, when there is any sort of bug or problem, they want to know those stats to figure out what is wrong.

I am a person who loves to know stats. Which is weird because I just don't care in Destiny. And I would say "just add in all the information in there" but I don't want it! I don't want all that clutter. I want to know what I need to do to get stuff, but as for everything else, I would rather figure out drop rates by experiencing it. I don't need to know exactly how much of a bonus I get for something, I just care about the fact that it is a boon. I know that isn't for everyone.

I love clean UIs. I usually play with as little HUD as possible, and I usually don't pay attention to, or worry about what resources I'm getting unless I'm actively hunting them (I had almost 2k Weapon parts before CoO, simply because I don't bother trading them in with Banshee, since I have what I want in terms of weapons, generally).

That said, I notice right away when a developer gives me options to check and tweak aspects of the game that are generally invisible to me. Stuff like that is extremely useful for some people, and there's no good reason to deny them that as an option.

===================================================

In Warframe, the UI is generally clean. You can resize, remove, or add elements to it, and everything can be invisible if you want. At the same time, you can go into your menu at any time and get realtime info on your mission progress. Want to know which of your teammates has landed the most headshots? Which one has received the most amount of damage? Exactly how many credits you've earned, and how many drops you've picked up compared to each teammate?
It's all there. Want to track exactly how much health and shields your teammates have? You can have your UI show that at all times.

Want to go deeper and find out exactly how much time you've used every single weapon, character, sentinel, or pet, and how many kills you've gotten with every single one?
How your upgraded weapon compares to its base stats (with numbers and percentages, rather than bars), and how that weapon compares to another in every way from the status proc% chance, down to the amount of noise it makes? It's all there. They even let you check how much damage you can do when you swing your melee weapon after leaping from a wallrun.

===================================================

You can even pull up how many pictures/scans you've taken of every single enemy and item in the game. Why would they add that?

Because they know that some people care about all that, and they give you the option to check all of that out. People like you and me, though? We can completely ignore all of that, and just enjoy the game with our clean UI.

I don't see why Bungie has always been happy enough with "Three of Coins increase the chance of Exotic drops, and they stack to a degree, but they also have an invisible cooldown timer, lol."

Vagueness is terrible, especially when communication problems are repeatedly pointed out, and promises are made to address that.

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Vagueness is terrible, especially when communication problems are repeatedly pointed out, and promises are made to address that.

Agreed. If you don't want people to play the min/max game, don't give them knob to turn. If you put a knob in the game, people will want to know the scale.

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The thing is Claude, I'm guessing a good percentage of your playtime is playing while partied up with friends and acquaintances? I typically play alone (yes I'm aware this is meant to be a coop game) so I have less reason to be playing. When the game stands alone by itself, these flaws seem a lot more evident, at least to me.

Nope, it's about 50-50. I play half of my time alone. In some ways, I enjoy the playing more during those times. (In other ways, I enjoy it less.)

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You critique someone earlier for not watching the whole video:

Clearly. It's a fact that the he goes to various lengths to point out and provide evidence to support his facts. It's a fact that you didn't watch the video and are making opinions based off of a refusal to take your blinders off...

And then you say this:

I haven't finished the main story yet, so I don't have access to any of the adventures that you need to complete to even start getting the Lost Prophecies. That said...

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You critique someone earlier for not watching the whole video:

Clearly. It's a fact that the he goes to various lengths to point out and provide evidence to support his facts. It's a fact that you didn't watch the video and are making opinions based off of a refusal to take your blinders off...

And then you say this:

I haven't finished the main story yet, so I don't have access to any of the adventures that you need to complete to even start getting the Lost Prophecies. That said...

There's a slight difference. Korny is hearing opinions and the evidence behind them from someone who has finished it and agreeing with the conclusions drawn. The only thing Korny can't necessarily do is corroborate the evidence given.

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You critique someone earlier for not watching the whole video:

Clearly. It's a fact that the he goes to various lengths to point out and provide evidence to support his facts. It's a fact that you didn't watch the video and are making opinions based off of a refusal to take your blinders off...

And then you say this:

I haven't finished the main story yet, so I don't have access to any of the adventures that you need to complete to even start getting the Lost Prophecies. That said...

There's a slight difference. Korny is hearing opinions and the evidence behind them from someone who has finished it and agreeing with the conclusions drawn. The only thing Korny can't necessarily do is corroborate the evidence given.

Not to mention that I was playing with someone who was actively doing the quest, and was coming to the same conclusions as the video. If I had the quest myself, it would have played out exactly the same, since I did the adventures with him. I simply don't get the same credit or rewards, but I'm there with someone who is.

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You critique someone earlier for not watching the whole video:

Clearly. It's a fact that the he goes to various lengths to point out and provide evidence to support his facts. It's a fact that you didn't watch the video and are making opinions based off of a refusal to take your blinders off...

And then you say this:

I haven't finished the main story yet, so I don't have access to any of the adventures that you need to complete to even start getting the Lost Prophecies. That said...

There's a slight difference. Korny is hearing opinions and the evidence behind them from someone who has finished it and agreeing with the conclusions drawn. The only thing Korny can't necessarily do is corroborate the evidence given.

Not to mention that I was playing with someone who was actively doing the quest, and was coming to the same conclusions as the video. If I had the quest myself, it would have played out exactly the same, since I did the adventures with him. I simply don't get the same credit or rewards, but I'm there with someone who is.

Again, this is you trusting someone else's experience of the UI. Maybe you would have noticed getting stuff from different sources. Your experience is filtered through the other's experience. Sympathy is not the same as empathy.

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There's a slight difference. Korny is hearing opinions and the evidence behind them from someone who has finished it and agreeing with the conclusions drawn. The only thing Korny can't necessarily do is corroborate the evidence given.

Not to mention that I was playing with someone who was actively doing the quest, and was coming to the same conclusions as the video. If I had the quest myself, it would have played out exactly the same, since I did the adventures with him. I simply don't get the same credit or rewards, but I'm there with someone who is.

Again, this is you trusting someone else's experience of the UI.

Are you saying that Cane isn't trustworthy? Kind of sounds like that's what you're saying...

Maybe you would have noticed getting stuff from different sources. Your experience is filtered through the other's experience. Sympathy is not the same as empathy.

Right... but we were literally doing the same thing, together. I would have likely come to the same exact conclusion that he did, and the same one that Skill Up came to. Is it possible that RNG might have had an effect that would have given me a drop when I shot one specific enemy that he didn't? Yeah. But two completely different people both came to the same exact conclusion after playing the game. Why wouldn't I come to the same conclusion, especially if I was right there with one of them?

Does that compare in any way to cheapLEY's "I don't want to listen to a word he says, so I'm just gonna say that he's wrong about whatever he says, and I'm right, no matter what anyone else says either!"

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Look man, you're waaaaayyyyyy more defensive about this than I expected. Sorry if I offended you, but you usually have thick skin and I thought you'd appreciate the irony. I'll respond to your comments, but it's not my intent to piss you off.

Are you saying that Cane isn't trustworthy? Kind of sounds like that's what you're saying...

Sure, you could twist the words to mean that. But you know that's not what I mean. You just have to look to the part you quoted below to realize that's not what I'm saying. I'm just pointing out that you are reporting on someone else's report which is not the same thing.

Maybe you would have noticed getting stuff from different sources. Your experience is filtered through the other's experience. Sympathy is not the same as empathy.

Right... but we were literally doing the same thing, together. I would have likely come to the same exact conclusion that he did, and the same one that Skill Up came to. Is it possible that RNG might have had an effect that would have given me a drop when I shot one specific enemy that he didn't? Yeah. But two completely different people both came to the same exact conclusion after playing the game. Why wouldn't I come to the same conclusion, especially if I was right there with one of them?

Claude and I did not have that experience. I mean, sure, you may have made the exact same conclusions, but you may not have. What would your experience have been if you were tagging along with Claude?

Does that compare in any way to cheapLEY's "I don't want to listen to a word he says, so I'm just gonna say that he's wrong about whatever he says, and I'm right, no matter what anyone else says either!"

Heh, I was never talking about cheapLEY. No need for comparisons.

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Does that compare in any way to cheapLEY's "I don't want to listen to a word he says, so I'm just gonna say that he's wrong about whatever he says, and I'm right, no matter what anyone else says either!"

You make the mistake of assuming I was arguing against him. I wasn’t. Or if I was, it was only by proxy. I was arguing against the points and reason presented in this thread. Mostly I was just arguing against the statement that CoO was “objectively worse” than D2, as it’s an asinine statement by its very nature.

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Does that compare in any way to cheapLEY's "I don't want to listen to a word he says, so I'm just gonna say that he's wrong about whatever he says, and I'm right, no matter what anyone else says either!"

You make the mistake of assuming I was arguing against him. I wasn’t. Or if I was, it was only by proxy. I was arguing against the points and reason presented in this thread. Mostly I was just arguing against the statement that CoO was “objectively worse” than D2, as it’s an asinine statement by its very nature.

You weren't arguing against him, as that would require knowing the points he made, which you clearly didn't. You were arguing against the possibility that he might have made a good point, because you weren't going to risk the chance that he might by listening to him.

That said, CoO is objectively worse than D2.

If you didn't buy CoO, you had less content than before. That's changed for the most part, but you still have less content than before.

If you compare level design, CoO is objectively worse than D2. D2 had handmade encounters and controlled level design. CoO uses randomly generated Tile pieces (not even proper tilesets), and randomly generated enemies. It's a terrible execution of the concept, and when you look at the design of the tile pieces themselves, they are not on par with the base game's level design.

As it stands right now post-patch, CoO on its own does not make Destiny 2 worse (besides the content that folks are still locked out of). But as a continuation of D2, it takes steps back. When something regresses, and botches its execution, what would you call that? "An improvement!" in cheapLEY-world it would seem.

"But, but, the Raid Lair is great!"

"The car can't be a lemon, the steering wheel is gorgeous, and the power steering is so smooth! Who cares if the mechanic says that the transmission is failing! I love turning this steering wheel!"

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Sorry, apparently I cannot help myself.

Does that compare in any way to cheapLEY's "I don't want to listen to a word he says, so I'm just gonna say that he's wrong about whatever he says, and I'm right, no matter what anyone else says either!"

You make the mistake of assuming I was arguing against him. I wasn’t. Or if I was, it was only by proxy. I was arguing against the points and reason presented in this thread. Mostly I was just arguing against the statement that CoO was “objectively worse” than D2, as it’s an asinine statement by its very nature.

You weren't arguing against him, as that would require knowing the points he made, which you clearly didn't.

He literally just said this. He just stated that he was arguing against the "objectively worse" statement you used. As such, the following sentence cannot be what he was arguing.

You were arguing against the possibility that he might have made a good point, because you weren't going to risk the chance that he might by listening to him.

That said, CoO is objectively worse than D2.

If you didn't buy CoO, you had less content than before. That's changed for the most part, but you still have less content than before.

If you compare level design, CoO is objectively worse than D2. D2 had handmade encounters and controlled level design. CoO uses randomly generated Tile pieces (not even proper tilesets), and randomly generated enemies. It's a terrible execution of the concept, and when you look at the design of the tile pieces themselves, they are not on par with the base game's level design.

Maybe I'm weird and I haven't played it enough to be frustrated, but I don't hate the tiles. They certainly don't live up to my wildest dreams of what procedural generation could do, but they are a fun divergent experience.

As it stands right now post-patch, CoO on its own does not make Destiny 2 worse (besides the content that folks are still locked out of). But as a continuation of D2, it takes steps back. When something regresses, and botches its execution, what would you call that? "An improvement!" in cheapLEY-world it would seem.

This is subjective and I didn't see cheapLEY argue that is was an improvement. I wouldn't call it better or worse. Just a slightly different expansion. I really liked playing the campaign solo though.

"But, but, the Raid Lair is great!"

"The car can't be a lemon, the steering wheel is gorgeous, and the power steering is so smooth! Who cares if the mechanic says that the transmission is failing! I love turning this steering wheel!"

This is a bad metaphor based on different dependencies. I don't think you need to play anything else in CoO to play the lair. You can't continue to reliably operate a car with a failing transmission. CoO missions/prophecy content may be a flaming pile of crap (I don't think they are), but they don't make the raid lair bad. By virtue of expanding the game by one great experience, they have made the game better.

Obviously this ignores the changes to other mechanics you cannot ignore, but I'm not sure the evidence suggests that the game is worse because of these changes.

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That was an awfully long post just to prove you don’t know what objective means.

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It was just as big a waste of time as I anticipated.

His point about the Infinite Forest is that it sucks and is boring because he can either stand back and cheese it or run past all the enemies. Did he try, oh, I dunno, actually going into the rooms and engaging the enemies at close quarters? If he had, maybe he’d have discovered that the individual encounters are actually well designed and fun. He acts like the ability to play it like a dumbass makes it mandatory to do so, and discounts the possibility that playing it by actually engaging with it is worth doing.

He then goes on to say talk about the Lost Prophecy Verses and says that some of them need 60 Public Events which is OBJECTIVELY wrong. The most any need is 30, and that’s if you only get the resources from public events and ignore any other sources.

Then he talks about Eververse, which is whatever. I understand his complaint, but it’s no different from the base game, and it doesn’t bother me the way it does him.

And then he talks about the lockout, which is now a moot point, so it’s not worth addressing now.

I’m not as pissy as I might seem, but you’re being willfully obtuse and seem dead set on trying to insult me. This video was a complete waste of time, and now I’m upset that I took the fucking bait and watched the stupid thing.

So let me reiterate: this guy is welcome to his opinions, as are you, and I don’t begrudge them. But stop belittling everyone else that disagrees and are perfectly happy with the game.

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I know, and I know better than to get drawn in, but I can't help myself sometimes I guess.

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Some stuff he complained about was like worst possible scenario stuff. I don't think he actually thinks you need 20 public events or that you can go through the infinite forest avoiding all the enemies. (That was this video right? I don't even remember anymore)

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Some stuff he complained about was like worst possible scenario stuff. I don't think he actually thinks you need 20 public events or that you can go through the infinite forest avoiding all the enemies. (That was this video right? I don't even remember anymore)

When talking about the Verses, he says “ . . . And the next weapon after that requires 60 public events. There are even more reskinned weapons to earn and almost all of them require 20-60 public events.”

No, I don’t think he was exaggerating. He was just wrong.

I don’t think he was exaggerating or illustrating a particularly strong point with the Infinite Forest stuff either. Sure, you can run past everything. I can fast forward through movies I watch too, but I wouldn’t call the director a bad director because I did so. If he thinks the actual encounters are bad, that’s a separate issue, but he doesn’t discuss that at all. He just points out that you can skip them or sit back with a long range weapon and cheese them.

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But you can't really run through everything. You have to kill at least some demons, surely.

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I meant to address this too, but forgot. His restaurant analogy sucks (it’s the part that made me turn off the video the first time). You can fix a problem with a meal that’s made to order on an individual basis. That’s not possible when designing a game. He’s assuming that Bungie listening to fan complaints means that they’re listening to the folks that share his complaints. He’s at Wendy’s, lamenting the fact that he can’t get a nice steak dinner.

"The car can't be a lemon, the steering wheel is gorgeous, and the power steering is so smooth! Who cares if the mechanic says that the transmission is failing! I love turning this steering wheel!"

It’s almost the exact opposite of that. It’s more like my Mustang. Yeah, the interior sucks, filled with mediocre materials and parts from the parts bin, but the car is sexy as hell, sounds fucking incredible, not the fastest thing on the planet but still pretty fast, and overall just really fun to drive.

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You critique someone earlier for not watching the whole video:

Clearly. It's a fact that the he goes to various lengths to point out and provide evidence to support his facts. It's a fact that you didn't watch the video and are making opinions based off of a refusal to take your blinders off...

And then you say this:

I haven't finished the main story yet, so I don't have access to any of the adventures that you need to complete to even start getting the Lost Prophecies. That said...

There's a slight difference. Korny is hearing opinions and the evidence behind them from someone who has finished it and agreeing with the conclusions drawn. The only thing Korny can't necessarily do is corroborate the evidence given.

Sure, but it's not particularly helpful. It's like person A reading a negative review of a movie they haven't seen and then getting into an argument with person B who loved the movie and only read the first paragraph of the review. Person A may be right, but really, how much weight does that person's opinion have. Person B might have a different opinion of the movie than you, but at least they've experienced it.

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You critique someone earlier for not watching the whole video:

Clearly. It's a fact that the he goes to various lengths to point out and provide evidence to support his facts. It's a fact that you didn't watch the video and are making opinions based off of a refusal to take your blinders off...

And then you say this:

I haven't finished the main story yet, so I don't have access to any of the adventures that you need to complete to even start getting the Lost Prophecies. That said...

There's a slight difference. Korny is hearing opinions and the evidence behind them from someone who has finished it and agreeing with the conclusions drawn. The only thing Korny can't necessarily do is corroborate the evidence given.

Sure, but it's not particularly helpful. It's like person A reading a negative review of a movie they haven't seen and then getting into an argument with person B who loved the movie and only read the first paragraph of the review. Person A may be right, but really, how much weight does that person's opinion have. Person B might have a different opinion of the movie than you, but at least they've experienced it.

Person A is arguing that the reviewer's opinion seems sound and that Person B should probably go watch the full video before arguing with it. That's a valid statement. Person B should probably be arguing against the points from the review, but instead dismisses the review entirely and instead chooses to argue with the person who hasn't actually played the content. Seems equally silly for both Person A and B, really.

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You critique someone earlier for not watching the whole video:

Clearly. It's a fact that the he goes to various lengths to point out and provide evidence to support his facts. It's a fact that you didn't watch the video and are making opinions based off of a refusal to take your blinders off...

And then you say this:

I haven't finished the main story yet, so I don't have access to any of the adventures that you need to complete to even start getting the Lost Prophecies. That said...

There's a slight difference. Korny is hearing opinions and the evidence behind them from someone who has finished it and agreeing with the conclusions drawn. The only thing Korny can't necessarily do is corroborate the evidence given.

Sure, but it's not particularly helpful. It's like person A reading a negative review of a movie they haven't seen and then getting into an argument with person B who loved the movie and only read the first paragraph of the review. Person A may be right, but really, how much weight does that person's opinion have. Person B might have a different opinion of the movie than you, but at least they've experienced it.

Person A is arguing that the reviewer's opinion seems sound and that Person B should probably go watch the full video before arguing with it. That's a valid statement. Person B should probably be arguing against the points from the review, but instead dismisses the review entirely and instead chooses to argue with the person who hasn't actually played the content. Seems equally silly for both Person A and B, really.

Fair. Just one last point. My post was not about person B, just person A.

I was mostly just amused by the progression of disclosures:

"You can't comment if you haven't watched the video." ---> "I haven't played the game."

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Who has the more valid stance? They guy criticizing a video he hasn’t watched, but has experienced the things being criticized, or the guy who watched the video, but hasn’t experienced all of those things? Or are we both just idiots, pissing into the shitstorm that is Destiny?

FWIW, this is totally lighthearted. I don’t actually give a shit.

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Destiny 2: 8/10. Curse of Osiris: 2/10. Destiny 2 + CoO: 5/10.

Literally nobody has said anything like this.

Skill Up is handed a ribeye.

"Well, this is still good. I prefer filet mignon but whatever."

Skill Up is handed a top sirloin steak in addition to the ribeye.

"Now, because this steak is bad, the ribeye is bad. All steak is bad. I hate steak."

Unless you're being deliberately dense, neither of us have said that the DLC has made Vanilla Destiny 2 content worse. We've both pointed out that the DLC executes elements in a worse way than Destiny 2 has. The vanilla content is still there, and it's still good where it's good, but where it's bad, the DLC has done very little to correct that. The content in this DLC is less fun than vanilla content overall, and a large chunk of that is from the design choices. You can't look me in the eye and tell me that the gameplay spaces are on par with Destiny 2's. Ignore the skyboxes, and look at the play spaces. Then look at weapon quests, then non-eververse content, etc.

I just honestly disagree with that sentiment. I think the Infinite Forest is a bit weak, but I love the strikes that take place there. And the actual “rooms” are great encounter spaces, I think. Lots of cover and verticality, they’re just fun spaces. Mercury itself is small, but is a great Destination with lots of stuff going on. The Lost Prophecies are basically what tons of streamers and Reddit asked for, even if they’re far too grindy for my tastes. At least they got me to actually jump in to the strikes playlist, which is something I didn’t really do before.

And the Raid Lair is incredible. No spoilers, I know you’re blind. It’s shorter than Leviathan, but much cooler. The final two encounters are amazing, with one possibly being my favorite Raid encounter ever.

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Less effort, worse design, weaker content.

Which is completely baffling given two other studios are helping them! Either their tools still suck and content creation is still a pain, or Bungie has the next big thing cooking and just has no interest in Destiny anymore. Jones is working on what’s next according to that BBC interview.

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Someone with a professional interest in playing video games more than I have time to and who has probably played the current D2 content more than I ever will decides not a play the game anymore. Does it affect me? Not really. Am I interested in why they quit? Marginally. They think their reasons for quitting are worth being put into a video. By the title, I know they're past the point of being constructive in their criticism--they're gone regardless (unless they're being dishonest). I know by the title that they are seeking attention and click$. I know by the title that they want me to watch and perhaps, if their criticisms ring true, be justified in quitting the game myself (and telling other$ to watch). I suspect by the title that they are being dramatic. I know by the title they have an expectation that wasn't met by the game, but it's not my expectation.

I know this because I'm enjoying D2 irrespective of this person and his opinion. I have friends I like playing with. They seem to enjoy it, too. I assume if they don't they'll stop playing. THAT will affect me, but maybe I'll quit too because I'll not be enjoying it then either. Hasn't happened yet. Bungie needs to watch this. They need to care because this guy is an influencer I suppose and they need, from a business perspective, to counter his influence either by changing the game to meet his expectations or more clearly setting expectations for those who share this person's viewpoint. I, on the other hand, don't have to watch this. I enjoy this game and don't feel the need even in my head to defend that. Life is dramatic enough. Don't need more.

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You overestimate the actual amount of influence these people have.

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And I keep telling Jackie that Destiny 1 year 4 isn't too bad!

Anyway, we picked it up during the week of black friday, and essentially got the DLC for free, and from what I've played thus far, that was a wise choice.

The campaign was much better this time around, but I don't have -any- desire to play it again. It was popcorn. Tasty but not filling. Empty snack.

But as Jackie and I were going through it together blind, I looked over at her many times and she was really, really enjoying it. We got to the tank section and she's like "wow! this is great, I wish this was in D1, this is cool!" and I'm thinking to myself the entire time "I did this in Halo 1, 2, 3..."

Listening to her enjoy it since she never played the Halos was humbling for me, and helped me loosen up a bit. For me, many of the experiences Bungie delivered in D2's campaign I've already experienced (and better) in their earlier work. But it was awesome playing it with someone who never had that experience.

By the end, I felt I was going through the motions. But she wasn't and her enjoyment made me enjoy it, if that makes sense.

We finished the story in about 2 weeks, playing a little as we go.

That was good.

It took another 2 weeks of leisurely play to level up to around 270.

We've still got to try the raid sometime (hopefully we can wrangle some people that are still blind).

Still have the Raid lair to do too.

We've still got to try iron banner.

I want to do trials (she'd rather watch)

Still have all the exotic quests to do (Need help with The Rat king!)

Way too over-leveled to do the 'adventures', but we bite on them now and then.

Just dipped back into crucible for the first time a few days ago.

Have not ran many strikes.

No nightfall yet.

All that said, we don't feel like we're "out of stuff to do" by any means, but we DO feel that there isn't anything "new" to do.

Our approach has 180'd from D1. We aren't in a hurry. We'll get to the content when we get to it.

We finished CoO main missions and again I gotta say, really glad I got that DLC fo free, cuz it ain't filling. At all.

Your brother made the right call, I feel similar. When I was locked out of D1 content during Fall of Crota, I was mad. But I learned the lesson for how this game works. If you don't buy the DLC, you don't get any of the "incentives" to play. Is what it is.

All these chuckle heads that keep going "THERE'S NOTHING TO DOOOOOO" make me laugh because there WAS plenty to do, the majority of them just blasted through it. That's their right, of course, and I'm not going to tell someone they're playing it wrong, but.....

So, we're enjoying it for what it is. A competent shooter that doesn't re-invent the wheel or add anything meaningful but that's still fun in small doses with friends over time.

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We've still got to try the raid sometime (hopefully we can wrangle some people that are still blind).

Can't do anything about the Raid as I'm not blind anymore (but I'm willing to play and say nothing if it comes down to you needing people. Could be a fun challenge for me too.) but I'm all in on the raid lair if you have any interest. I'm super blind on that!

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We've still got to try the raid sometime (hopefully we can wrangle some people that are still blind).

Can't do anything about the Raid as I'm not blind anymore (but I'm willing to play and say nothing if it comes down to you needing people. Could be a fun challenge for me too.) but I'm all in on the raid lair if you have any interest. I'm super blind on that!

Likewise... I'm not blind on the raid or raid lair, but if it just comes down to needing people to play with, count me in :)

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We've still got to try the raid sometime (hopefully we can wrangle some people that are still blind).

Can't do anything about the Raid as I'm not blind anymore (but I'm willing to play and say nothing if it comes down to you needing people. Could be a fun challenge for me too.) but I'm all in on the raid lair if you have any interest. I'm super blind on that!

Likewise... I'm not blind on the raid or raid lair, but if it just comes down to needing people to play with, count me in :)

I still haven't finished it. But we figured out the boss. Count me in too.

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