Bright Engrams -- slippery slope?

I like Bright Engrams -- I think they're a cool element of the game, and if they bring money for a company I like a lot, that's all on the up and up.

I bought my first in-game stuff when SRL first shipped: SRL was a free download, and I would have gladly paid 20 bucks for that event, so I did, and got the record book and such. With each major expansion, I like to buy a little Silver, just as a way of saying "thanks Bungie, you're cool, you're making a cool game."

My personal standard is that so long as money-bought items don't provide an unfair functional advantage, then I'm fine with it.

The moment you cross the line from purely aesthetic, however, I feel you start down a slippery slope.

That line was crossed at the start D2, but it didn't feel it was a big deal.

Dig: Bright Engrams give you rare (blue) mod components, you know, get three-of-a-kind, and the Gunsmith gives you a purple +5 which gives you more recoil, faster ability recharges, etc.

Ok so, if I spend some cash with Eververse, I can get a bunch of those blue mods and immediately get all the armor / weapon mods taken care of, whereas a non-Eververse player might have to play for a few hours to get those.

With the introduction of Masterworks weapons, I feel that the "purchased" functionality bar has been set a bit higher.

Having played with a MW Positive Outlook a bit, I would say the changes are still fairly minimal, but they're nonetheless a noticeable step up from a non-MW weapon: now you're creating little orbs from double kills (so fun!), now you might get a bit more range, or stability, or a few extra bullets in your mag.

I'm sure someone can do the math, but if you buy enough Bright Engrams, you will get a lot of these blue mod components.

If you dismantle a blue mod component, you get a weapon part.

If you turn in weapon parts to the Gunsmith, you get a chance at a MW weapon.

Sure, those are a lot of "ifs," and we're not exactly talking "Eververse Exclusive: Fatebringer Legacy hand cannon," but it nevertheless caught my eye that someone with money can get a slightly better (MasterWorks) gun without ever leaving the Tower.

I'm not so much concerned with where we are, but where we might end up. What do ya'll think?

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I'm not so much concerned with where we are, but where we might end up. What do ya'll think?

Did you SEE that job posting for an Eververse designer? It’s only going to get worse.

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It’s an interesting point, multi step exchange rate would be ludicrous to gain any advantage at all. Like thousands of dollars, maybe.

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There are a few ways to approach this, I think. Some may say that while theoretically possible, using eververse to farm parts to exchange for weapons is so time consuming and expensive that it really isn’t a problem. Others will argue that if there were people who spent $1500 on ME3 Microtransactions, then we can’t make any assumptions about what people will or won’t spend.

Personally, I kind of feel like we’ve lost as soon as the issue becomes debatable at all. Microtransactions can be non-invasive. Other games have done it. Maybe I’m pessimistic, but I don’t see the term “slippery slope” as being an accurate descriptor in this case. I think what’s happening is more deliberate than that.

How do you get people to accept something that you know they don’t want to accept? You take a tiny little step in that direction. Then another, and another, right up until they complain. Then you wait. Then after a while, you take another tiny step, then they complain, so you wait again. Then another step, etc.

To me, the eververse reeks of deliberate encroachment. They’re gradually making it bigger and more invasive, and we’re left trying to figure out where “the line” is when really it shouldn’t be in the game all :-/

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Also remember that people's JOBS rely on money being spent at eververse. That inching won't stop, primarily because those people are IN CHARGE of that pool of features. Even if not intentional at all. :/

I'm mostly? fine with what is more or less in there now, though it is much more in your face. I am disappointed that eververse is a vital part of the ecosystem though. I do feel like it's the only way to get interesting things outside of major releases, which is a shame.

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Also remember that people's JOBS rely on money being spent at eververse. That inching won't stop, primarily because those people are IN CHARGE of that pool of features. Even if not intentional at all. :/

I'm mostly? fine with what is more or less in there now, though it is much more in your face. I am disappointed that eververse is a vital part of the ecosystem though. I do feel like it's the only way to get interesting things outside of major releases, which is a shame.

The money eververse brings in is dramatically more than the jobs of the small number of people who support it. Prices on microtransactions (everywhere) are grossly disproportionate to the work needed to create them. Pay $10 for a new skin that took one artist less than a day to make? Or $15 for an expansion pack that took 300 people two solid months of dev followed by three months of testing?

Saying "but their jobs" is denying the reality of the microtransactional universe: Namely that it's a cash grab by the corporations to boost profits for their shareholders.

If we hadn't all paid $60+ for the base game, then you would have a stronger argument, but the fact of the matter is that the base purchase is what protects those people's jobs, and the microtrans is gravy on top for the CEO and board of directors and pretty much no one else.

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Also remember that people's JOBS rely on money being spent at eververse. That inching won't stop, primarily because those people are IN CHARGE of that pool of features. Even if not intentional at all. :/

I'm mostly? fine with what is more or less in there now, though it is much more in your face. I am disappointed that eververse is a vital part of the ecosystem though. I do feel like it's the only way to get interesting things outside of major releases, which is a shame.

The money eververse brings in is dramatically more than the jobs of the small number of people who support it. Prices on microtransactions (everywhere) are grossly disproportionate to the work needed to create them. Pay $10 for a new skin that took one artist less than a day to make? Or $15 for an expansion pack that took 300 people two solid months of dev followed by three months of testing?

Saying "but their jobs" is denying the reality of the microtransactional universe: Namely that it's a cash grab by the corporations to boost profits for their shareholders.

If we hadn't all paid $60+ for the base game, then you would have a stronger argument, but the fact of the matter is that the base purchase is what protects those people's jobs, and the microtrans is gravy on top for the CEO and board of directors and pretty much no one else.

I don’t want to speak for Slycrel, but I don’t think he is defending the eververse hear. I took his point as meaning that Bungie created a situation where they now employ people who’s jobs are completely dependant on the eververse meaning they have a self-fulfilling interest. Therefore, we should expect the eververse to get increasingly larger because there is an active team there use relies on it to justify their very existence within the company.

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Also remember that people's JOBS rely on money being spent at eververse. That inching won't stop, primarily because those people are IN CHARGE of that pool of features. Even if not intentional at all. :/

I'm mostly? fine with what is more or less in there now, though it is much more in your face. I am disappointed that eververse is a vital part of the ecosystem though. I do feel like it's the only way to get interesting things outside of major releases, which is a shame.

The money eververse brings in is dramatically more than the jobs of the small number of people who support it. Prices on microtransactions (everywhere) are grossly disproportionate to the work needed to create them. Pay $10 for a new skin that took one artist less than a day to make? Or $15 for an expansion pack that took 300 people two solid months of dev followed by three months of testing?

Saying "but their jobs" is denying the reality of the microtransactional universe: Namely that it's a cash grab by the corporations to boost profits for their shareholders.

If we hadn't all paid $60+ for the base game, then you would have a stronger argument, but the fact of the matter is that the base purchase is what protects those people's jobs, and the microtrans is gravy on top for the CEO and board of directors and pretty much no one else.

I don’t want to speak for Slycrel, but I don’t think he is defending the eververse hear. I took his point as meaning that Bungie created a situation where they now employ people who’s jobs are completely dependant on the eververse meaning they have a self-fulfilling interest. Therefore, we should expect the eververse to get increasingly larger because there is an active team there use relies on it to justify their very existence within the company.

Also, most people forget about the maintenance team and the cost in general for maintaining a game as large as destiny. I'm sure some of the $60 is used for this purpose, but I'm also sure that MT's are also helping keep the servers up and running as well. This shit isn't cheap.

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Also, most people forget about the maintenance team and the cost in general for maintaining a game as large as destiny. I'm sure some of the $60 is used for this purpose, but I'm also sure that MT's are also helping keep the servers up and running as well. This shit isn't cheap.

I hate that argument. I don't buy it.

You don't get to post record profits year after year and then turn around and tell me you don't make enough money so you have to put slot machines into your game, too.

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Also, most people forget about the maintenance team and the cost in general for maintaining a game as large as destiny. I'm sure some of the $60 is used for this purpose, but I'm also sure that MT's are also helping keep the servers up and running as well. This shit isn't cheap.

I hate that argument. I don't buy it.

You don't get to post record profits year after year and then turn around and tell me you don't make enough money so you have to put slot machines into your game, too.

I mostly mention this for two reason:
1. People rarely remember the cost of maintaining games
2. It astounds me sometimes that people forget they are playing a live game that doesn't have a monthly fee (Not really people at DBO)

I'm not saying it's the sole reason. I'm just giving another reason for alternate income in games. I personally don't think of them as slot machines, I also have never spent money on Eververse. I'm also an Engineer that supports a live product under the hood and our business model changed from a single transaction to subscription for a reason.

The fact that Bungie is still running under a single transaction/product model for a live game has its drawbacks. But for me, it's much better because I'm getting a ton of content for only paying for the base game and DLC's.

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Also remember that people's JOBS rely on money being spent at eververse. That inching won't stop, primarily because those people are IN CHARGE of that pool of features. Even if not intentional at all. :/

I'm mostly? fine with what is more or less in there now, though it is much more in your face. I am disappointed that eververse is a vital part of the ecosystem though. I do feel like it's the only way to get interesting things outside of major releases, which is a shame.

The money eververse brings in is dramatically more than the jobs of the small number of people who support it. Prices on microtransactions (everywhere) are grossly disproportionate to the work needed to create them. Pay $10 for a new skin that took one artist less than a day to make? Or $15 for an expansion pack that took 300 people two solid months of dev followed by three months of testing?

Saying "but their jobs" is denying the reality of the microtransactional universe: Namely that it's a cash grab by the corporations to boost profits for their shareholders.

If we hadn't all paid $60+ for the base game, then you would have a stronger argument, but the fact of the matter is that the base purchase is what protects those people's jobs, and the microtrans is gravy on top for the CEO and board of directors and pretty much no one else.

I don’t want to speak for Slycrel, but I don’t think he is defending the eververse hear. I took his point as meaning that Bungie created a situation where they now employ people who’s jobs are completely dependant on the eververse meaning they have a self-fulfilling interest. Therefore, we should expect the eververse to get increasingly larger because there is an active team there use relies on it to justify their very existence within the company.

I'm definitely not defending eververse, just making an observation. It's been made clear that there exists a "live team" that is funded out of eververse. And is in charge, to some degree, of making that ecosystem work. I expect creep on just that basis alone. Let alone the fact that money is good for everyone involved in making the game. Thus we see posts about jobs which are focused on striking the balance between paying for micro-content and "fun".

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Also remember that people's JOBS rely on money being spent at eververse. That inching won't stop, primarily because those people are IN CHARGE of that pool of features. Even if not intentional at all. :/

I'm mostly? fine with what is more or less in there now, though it is much more in your face. I am disappointed that eververse is a vital part of the ecosystem though. I do feel like it's the only way to get interesting things outside of major releases, which is a shame.

The money eververse brings in is dramatically more than the jobs of the small number of people who support it. Prices on microtransactions (everywhere) are grossly disproportionate to the work needed to create them. Pay $10 for a new skin that took one artist less than a day to make? Or $15 for an expansion pack that took 300 people two solid months of dev followed by three months of testing?

Saying "but their jobs" is denying the reality of the microtransactional universe: Namely that it's a cash grab by the corporations to boost profits for their shareholders.

If we hadn't all paid $60+ for the base game, then you would have a stronger argument, but the fact of the matter is that the base purchase is what protects those people's jobs, and the microtrans is gravy on top for the CEO and board of directors and pretty much no one else.

I don’t want to speak for Slycrel, but I don’t think he is defending the eververse hear. I took his point as meaning that Bungie created a situation where they now employ people who’s jobs are completely dependant on the eververse meaning they have a self-fulfilling interest. Therefore, we should expect the eververse to get increasingly larger because there is an active team there use relies on it to justify their very existence within the company.

I'm definitely not defending eververse, just making an observation. It's been made clear that there exists a "live team" that is funded out of eververse. And is in charge, to some degree, of making that ecosystem work. I expect creep on just that basis alone. Let alone the fact that money is good for everyone involved in making the game. Thus we see posts about jobs which are focused on striking the balance between paying for micro-content and "fun".

I see, sorry about my misunderstanding. I agree with your assessment that the live team is likely to make things worse by virtue of being funded out of this microtrash.

I also think it's bullshit on the part of Bungie's PR to say that microtransactions fund the live team. Many games have had live support, dedicated servers (gasp), and continuous balance adjustments without any sort of microtransactional revenue element. Modern games don't, of course, because they're all suckling at the teat of money for virtually nothing (seriously an entire DLC is $20, or you could pay $1000 and have pretty good odds of getting the whole dawning armor set), but they all *could* be just fine without such a system; possible exception to games like WoW that are true MMORPGs (though some MMORPGs get by on microtrans only without any pay for expansions or base game). And if that's not bullshit, and the live team literally is funded solely with money from eververse, then Bungie's accountants are terrible at their jobs and Bungie should *not* be trusted with the ability to accurately predict financial expenses of future projects.

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I got an exotic ghost shell from one of my bright engrams.

And exotic ghost shell (The Electronica Shell) which, as one of its perks, gives me INCREASED LOOT FROM PUBLIC EVENTS on ALL worlds. I frequently get an extra purple from public events now, in addition to my normal blues, and in the last few days, I've also gotten 2 exotics from public events.

This is by no means the only pay to win ghost shell eververse sells.

The Star Map ghost shell detects caches within 50 meters and increases glimmer gains. On ALL worlds.

The Cosmos shell increases XP gains by 10%.

The Fire Victorious Shell gives you more faction tokens from strikes and gunsmith telemetry data from kills, again on ALL worlds.

And the Fast Lane shell makes your vehicle summons faster (okay that's not game breaking at all, but it is convenient).

My point is that these shells provide clear and sometimes dramatic advantages over non-eververse options. *There's* your slippery slope.

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I don't usually hold with the slipper slope. I think once they pass an arbitrary line in my head where something becomes unfair, then it's BS. Now, at this point, considering no loot in Destiny 2 is good, I don't mind those ghosts. They don't give us anything hardcore players really want. They're useful, but ain't none of us scrambling for legendaries. Some people farm tokens and crap, and these ghosts would be useful for them, but I honestly believe they're fringe cases.

If those ghost shells were there during Destiny 1.0, you bet your ass I'd be pissed because of how rare the good stuff was and how important farming was.

Where it becomes something to quit the game over is if you, as a hardcore player, feel that you're being conned out of the ability to get a great piece of game changing loot by not buying it.

Are we moving towards the eververse Fatebringer? Yes. But as shady as Bingle is being lately with the microtransactions, they're still Bungie. They aren't dumb. I expect they also have a line they won't cross. I'm not going to get too upset until they do.

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I didn't know that any of those existed. O_o

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I didn't know that any of those existed. O_o

To be fair, none of them did, before last week. :)

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Ah, that explains it. I'm not on the current DLC and haven't played much in a couple months. I just hopped on because of the Dawning stuff.

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But I still hate all the things you're pointing out.

Instead of just designing items to work like that and be convenient for the player, they're actively making things worse for players, and then selling them the chance to get an item that lets things be slightly more convenient. The fast-spawn sparrow is another great example of that.

I don't mind cosmetic armors, ships, sparrows, shaders, ghosts, etc being in the Eververse, but I do hate that they've actively made the game less convenient (and therefore less fun) with the intention of adding small little perks that make all that shit just slightly more convenient.

I honestly think I'd be less offended if it was literally pay to win and not just tiny little inconveniences that can be made slightly better by spending more money. It'd be less insulting, at the very least. Because trying to sell me a sparrow that spawns three seconds quicker, or a ghost that shows planetary mats on the mini-map is fucking lame, and they somehow think that's something cool worth paying actual money for.

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I hear ya, buddy. It's not the things for sale as much as the things in the normal game which are made shittier in order to make the things for sale more attractive.

I wonder how many of the decisions in the game's mechanics were made under the guise of "this will inconvenience the player and will drive them towards eververse, which will sell things that negate those inconveniences." in a perfect world, it would be zero, but that is clearly not the case here.

Speaking of: I find player choice important. Having to choose between a sparrow that reloads your guns when you hop on vs. one that spawns quickly vs. one that is more maneuverable while riding is interesting and gives the player a sense of ownership over their ride. Having a sparrow that does everything, hidden behind a slot machine paywall, just makes the people who made choices into second class plebs.

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I hear ya, buddy. It's not the things for sale as much as the things in the normal game which are made shittier in order to make the things for sale more attractive.

I wonder how many of the decisions in the game's mechanics were made under the guise of "this will inconvenience the player and will drive them towards eververse, which will sell things that negate those inconveniences." in a perfect world, it would be zero, but that is clearly not the case here.

Speaking of: I find player choice important. Having to choose between a sparrow that reloads your guns when you hop on vs. one that spawns quickly vs. one that is more maneuverable while riding is interesting and gives the player a sense of ownership over their ride. Having a sparrow that does everything, hidden behind a slot machine paywall, just makes the people who made choices into second class plebs.

In principle, I agree with you. But mostly, I just think those perks are lame and not interesting. They're just not really meaningful choices in my opinion. They could give me a Sparrow that had literally all of those perks and it wouldn't change me experience in any meaningful way.

I told kupkake and Destroyo tonight while we were playing that I just immediately shard all new Ghosts. I pick my Ghost based on the way it looks. All the perks are dumb. I'm lazy, I'm not going to switch my Ghost out every time I go to a new planet. It's just lame. Perks should be far, far more interesting than that, in my opinion. Things like finding resources shouldn't be a chore I have to do in the game. Making a perk that makes that chore slightly less frustrating isn't cool or interesting, and I honestly just don't care enough to engage with that shit. I'll do those chores as I play the game--it'll happen when it happens.

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I hear ya, buddy. It's not the things for sale as much as the things in the normal game which are made shittier in order to make the things for sale more attractive.

I wonder how many of the decisions in the game's mechanics were made under the guise of "this will inconvenience the player and will drive them towards eververse, which will sell things that negate those inconveniences." in a perfect world, it would be zero, but that is clearly not the case here.

Speaking of: I find player choice important. Having to choose between a sparrow that reloads your guns when you hop on vs. one that spawns quickly vs. one that is more maneuverable while riding is interesting and gives the player a sense of ownership over their ride. Having a sparrow that does everything, hidden behind a slot machine paywall, just makes the people who made choices into second class plebs.

In principle, I agree with you. But mostly, I just think those perks are lame and not interesting. They're just not really meaningful choices in my opinion. They could give me a Sparrow that had literally all of those perks and it wouldn't change me experience in any meaningful way.

I told kupkake and Destroyo tonight while we were playing that I just immediately shard all new Ghosts. I pick my Ghost based on the way it looks. All the perks are dumb. I'm lazy, I'm not going to switch my Ghost out every time I go to a new planet. It's just lame. Perks should be far, far more interesting than that, in my opinion. Things like finding resources shouldn't be a chore I have to do in the game. Making a perk that makes that chore slightly less frustrating isn't cool or interesting, and I honestly just don't care enough to engage with that shit. I'll do those chores as I play the game--it'll happen when it happens.

I didn't mean those were great perks. I meant that they at least gave you something to demonstrate a preference over.

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Bright Engrams -- slippery slope? (Destiny)