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Do you have any idea how you got your gear? (Destiny)

by Kahzgul, Friday, December 22, 2017, 02:35 (2378 days ago)

Not counting items you got in, say, the last two days, do you remember what you did to "earn" any of the gear you're wearing?

Remember when Destiny was "your gear will tell your story?" Okay, so destiny's gear-story was usually "I got lucky opening a chest" or "the vendor finally sold a good roll on this gun" but occasionally it was "I did a super hard thing and now I have the Chaperone!" or "This is my Thorn. I earned it in a strike and then forged it in the void of the crucible."

Destiny 2 almost completely lacks that. CoO at least has the forge, where your "i grinded 15 heroic strikes" or "I opened like 50 chests until I got the items I needed" become "I 'forged' this gun, just as I forged these other 10 weapons."

It's a problem that I'd hoped TTK solved. Having challenges - REAL challenges - that netted you real rewards was a nice thing in D1. Black Spindle was AWESOME. Remember looking for the Sleeper Simulant? It didn't matter that the sleeper kinda sucked; earning it was AWESOME. Or that gun from the Siva raid? Holy crap that was great.

Sure, we got MIDA and Sturm and the third one, but those missions were not *challenges*, were not secret, and were so easy that having those guns is, similarly, not at all special.

In a way, CoO has brought back a small part of earning the guns, but the challenge element here is having the mental fortitude to withstand the grind more than it is doing something that requires skill.

Those few CoO forge guns that all tell the same story aside, none of my loot tells a story. And that's a damn shame.

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Having missions for loot blows.

by Funkmon @, Friday, December 22, 2017, 05:22 (2378 days ago) @ Kahzgul
edited by Funkmon, Friday, December 22, 2017, 05:27

I have zero memory of getting the sleeper simulant. I had a lot of fun getting Outbreak Prime with Zero yelling numbers at us, but I feel no attachment to it. I don't remember how I got my glowy fishbowl helmet on my Warlock in Destiny 2, but I do know it's one of my first exotics and I'm slowly becoming attached to it. You want to know the guns I remember getting most vividly?

My Gyllenhaal from Ir Yut, finally.

Probablylast's Gyllenhaal from us cheesing the Abyss chest. It's also where I got my Dragon's Breath, which I love.

My Field Scout Vanquisher, which we got after a particularly rough nightfall on my hunter.

Bluerunner's Fatebringer, which he got after forever.

My Field Scout Zombie Apocalypse from a crucible game where I had 20 kills.

My Light/BEWARE or whatever that thing was called from loot caving.

The thing about the missions for guns and loot is everyone has the same story. You know it's coming. No flashpoint memory is saved. There's no "holy crap a goddamn Icebreaker!" There is a "well, I've gotta go look at chests on Venus and I'll get this Super Good Advice machine." This kept me from really forming any attachment to my gear from TTK, with the exception of my Suros DIS 47 scout rifle with appended mag.

I heard that these could roll with full auto. So, I picked up the gunsmith thingies for the Suros scout rifles and waited, and waited, and waited. Sometimes a decent roll would show up. No, that's not right. Eventually, the perfect roll happened. Full auto, appended mag, the right sights, the balance perk, I just about ruined my pants. And I used it constantly. I never knew if it was going to show up, but I knew what I was hoping for, and one day when I got it, I used it literally for the next year and a half until Destiny 2 came out.

That's one I remember. That's one for which I feel something. Not the stupid black hammer quest I had to grind through with Chappy 15 times. The one that just popped up.

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Having missions for loot blows.

by cheapLEY @, Friday, December 22, 2017, 06:43 (2378 days ago) @ Funkmon

I’m starting to miss random rolls a bit. I know I’m the guy that rallied against them, and for the most part I hold true to that. I like knowing what things are.

The thing that’s made me reconsider is armor. I’ve playing Hunter a lot, and all the Recovery armor is ugly. So I’m forced to pick between useless armor or ugly armor, and that blows.

Guns are a bit more complicated. I like that the guns are just the guns and that I know what I’m getting. However, it means 90% of the guns I get are immediately sharded or infused. In Destiny, there was always that one perk combination that could drastically change the way I feel about a gun. In Destiny 2, if I dislike that gun, I’m going to dislike it forever. That’s not necessarily a problem, but it is less interesting, and the fact that I dislike so many of the guns in Destiny 2 makes the set perks feel worse than they might actually be.

I dunno.

I’ve been playing Destiny 2 really hard since CoO came out, and I’ve been really enjoying the day to day play more than I have maybe ever. But it’s also all sort of blending together, and I think that’s mostly down to loot variety being lacking. I know which armor I need—if it’s not recovery its gone. I know which weapons I like, and other than the odd exotic, I either have or have had at one point most of them. Almost everything I get now ends up being sharded.

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Having missions for loot blows.

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Friday, December 22, 2017, 07:40 (2378 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I’m starting to miss random rolls a bit. I know I’m the guy that rallied against them, and for the most part I hold true to that. I like knowing what things are.

The thing that’s made me reconsider is armor. I’ve playing Hunter a lot, and all the Recovery armor is ugly. So I’m forced to pick between useless armor or ugly armor, and that blows.

What you really want is for armor to just be style and for the "stats" tied to armor currently to be divorced from the armor. That's what I was hoping Bungie was going to do with mods. Let me choose the armor that I think looks cool, then apply the appropriate mods to make it behave how I want.

Guns are a bit more complicated. I like that the guns are just the guns and that I know what I’m getting. However, it means 90% of the guns I get are immediately sharded or infused. In Destiny, there was always that one perk combination that could drastically change the way I feel about a gun. In Destiny 2, if I dislike that gun, I’m going to dislike it forever. That’s not necessarily a problem, but it is less interesting, and the fact that I dislike so many of the guns in Destiny 2 makes the set perks feel worse than they might actually be.

I wish mods replaced the "upgrade tree" or whatever it's called. When you earn a gun it comes with a stock sight and then you get sight mods to apply to choose a sight that you like to use and that tweaks the base stats the way you want them to.

I know which armor I need—if it’s not recovery its gone. I know which weapons I like, and other than the odd exotic, I either have or have had at one point most of them. Almost everything I get now ends up being sharded.

RNG blows when it comes to allowing Bungie to correctly balance the game, but RNG loot acquired via RNG makes you feel like you are making progress. So as Bungie tunes the game to be less about RNG so they can balance the gameplay, they reduce the fun from acquiring loot. Destiny 2 is stuck in the middle. Bungie made the loot grind less fun, but they also only partially improved their ability to balance things. The enemy AI isn't particularly smart, so they aren't as much fun to fight as in previous Bungie games. Raids make up for that by making you think about how to apply your weapons and abilities, but at a significant time-cost which turns some players away.

Personally, I'm in the camp of drop the RNG for anything. Then beef up the enemy AI to make them a bit more fun to fight in the general case. Introduce more Raid mechanics to the core game including public events, adventures, and story missions. (Heroic events are a good step in that direction.) I'm sure there are others who wish it was more like Borderlands though (weapons are entirely random), but that makes it _really_ hard for Bungie to balance. They need to decide what kind of game they want Destiny to be and commit to it IMO.

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SGA: FWC armor is also recovery armor.

by Kahzgul, Friday, December 22, 2017, 10:04 (2378 days ago) @ cheapLEY

- No text -

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Having missions for loot blows.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, December 22, 2017, 10:32 (2378 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Guns are a bit more complicated. I like that the guns are just the guns and that I know what I’m getting. However, it means 90% of the guns I get are immediately sharded or infused. In Destiny, there was always that one perk combination that could drastically change the way I feel about a gun. In Destiny 2, if I dislike that gun, I’m going to dislike it forever. That’s not necessarily a problem, but it is less interesting, and the fact that I dislike so many of the guns in Destiny 2 makes the set perks feel worse than they might actually be.

This is just an inherent problem when you have so many guns. Would you 'shard' a gun you get in Halo? No… each gun was good in its own way and place. The game scenario was diverse, so you could find places to use them.

Loot should be a means to an end, not the end itself. You might covet a character's ultimate weapon in a JRPG, but having that now means you can take on the superbosses and have new experiences in the game.

The idea of a game where loot is the primary goal is bankrupt at the core.

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I think it depends on the story

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Friday, December 22, 2017, 08:15 (2378 days ago) @ Funkmon

I agree that the moment of elation that comes from getting a random drop that you REALLY WANTED can create a powerful memory. But I’m not sure they balance out the overall frustration that can come from an RNG-based loot system. I would gladly trade my happy memories of random drops for the countless hours I spent grinding activities in the hopes of getting something I wanted. Because for me, it’s not just an issue of the amount of time spent grinding. It’s also the fact that by the time I got some of those drops, I was too burned out on the game to fully enjoy them because I’d spent so much time grinding to get them. Thats the key point that makes activity-specific loot rewards better, IMO. You don’t have to exhaust the game just to get access to the new gear that is supposed to enhance your enjoyment of the game.

That being said, I do think that Bungie has thoroughly phoned-in the majority of the quest-specific loot in D1 and D2. Repeating activities to complete arbitrary checklists is the laziest, most thoughtless form of “weapon quest”. If they actually told a story meaningful story with these quests, the game would be so much better off (the RoI Gjallarhorn quest was leaning in the right direction). Work it into the main story, for that matter. There was plenty of room in the D2 campaign to work in plot lines that involve reclaiming long lost weapons, or building something new from scavenged technology. It’s ok if everyone ends up having all the same weapons in the end... each of us will still have a developed memory of “the story of this weapon”, and that’s great if those stories are cool.

This ties into Bungie’s larger problems with storytelling... they can’t seem to do anything meaningful in this department lately.

The other element here is that for any of this to work, the loot needs to be exciting. Again, D2 often falls short here.

So really, I think this whole issue is a bit of a confluence of several different elements within the game, all of which could stand to be implemented much better.

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by Funkmon @, Friday, December 22, 2017, 08:54 (2378 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I just played Destiny. I didn't grind for stuff. I had a few things I would like to get, and then I played the game. Eventually I got them.

I understand a lot of people felt the pull to grind until they were burned out, but I never did. I just eventually got the stuff through playing.

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by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Friday, December 22, 2017, 10:20 (2378 days ago) @ Funkmon

I just played Destiny. I didn't grind for stuff. I had a few things I would like to get, and then I played the game. Eventually I got them.

I understand a lot of people felt the pull to grind until they were burned out, but I never did. I just eventually got the stuff through playing.

And that’s definitely the best way to approach the game while avoiding frustration, but what I’m getting at is that the game was built in such a way that to care about chasing gear would create a frustrating situation. In other words, it was a loot game where the best way to enjoy it was to not care about loot.

For me, the problem was largely that most of the gear in the game was utterly boring to play with. D1 with most guns just wasn’t fun for me. But D1 with Fatebringer, Black Hammer, and Gjallarhorn was a riot. If gear wasn’t RNG based, I could have done what I needed to do in order to acquire the gear I wanted to play with, then spent the majority of my time with the game having fun with my new toys. But D1 just wasn’t built that way. D2 is much better in this regard, IMO, except they haven’t created weapons that are as fun or exciting to use.

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by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Friday, December 22, 2017, 10:29 (2378 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I just played Destiny. I didn't grind for stuff. I had a few things I would like to get, and then I played the game. Eventually I got them.

I understand a lot of people felt the pull to grind until they were burned out, but I never did. I just eventually got the stuff through playing.


And that’s definitely the best way to approach the game while avoiding frustration, but what I’m getting at is that the game was built in such a way that to care about chasing gear would create a frustrating situation. In other words, it was a loot game where the best way to enjoy it was to not care about loot.

For me, the problem was largely that most of the gear in the game was utterly boring to play with. D1 with most guns just wasn’t fun for me. But D1 with Fatebringer, Black Hammer, and Gjallarhorn was a riot. If gear wasn’t RNG based, I could have done what I needed to do in order to acquire the gear I wanted to play with, then spent the majority of my time with the game having fun with my new toys. But D1 just wasn’t built that way. D2 is much better in this regard, IMO, except they haven’t created weapons that are as fun or exciting to use.

I would say that you just haven't found them yet, or your are crazy (or both) :-D

There are a ton of guns I love using: Sweet Business, Raid Auto, Osiris Scout, The Colony, Raid Rocket, Saint-14 Shotgun and I know there are more I just can't think of them off the top of my head.

I would also say that a big thing that helped impact how much I love weapons in D2 is the way they added combo weapons, like Mida pair, as well as the exotic armor that helps your weapons out.

Sweet Business + War Rig = Bullet hose of fun

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by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Friday, December 22, 2017, 12:21 (2378 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I just played Destiny. I didn't grind for stuff. I had a few things I would like to get, and then I played the game. Eventually I got them.

I understand a lot of people felt the pull to grind until they were burned out, but I never did. I just eventually got the stuff through playing.


And that’s definitely the best way to approach the game while avoiding frustration, but what I’m getting at is that the game was built in such a way that to care about chasing gear would create a frustrating situation. In other words, it was a loot game where the best way to enjoy it was to not care about loot.

For me, the problem was largely that most of the gear in the game was utterly boring to play with. D1 with most guns just wasn’t fun for me. But D1 with Fatebringer, Black Hammer, and Gjallarhorn was a riot. If gear wasn’t RNG based, I could have done what I needed to do in order to acquire the gear I wanted to play with, then spent the majority of my time with the game having fun with my new toys. But D1 just wasn’t built that way. D2 is much better in this regard, IMO, except they haven’t created weapons that are as fun or exciting to use.


I would say that you just haven't found them yet, or your are crazy (or both) :-D

There are a ton of guns I love using: Sweet Business, Raid Auto, Osiris Scout, The Colony, Raid Rocket, Saint-14 Shotgun and I know there are more I just can't think of them off the top of my head.

I would also say that a big thing that helped impact how much I love weapons in D2 is the way they added combo weapons, like Mida pair, as well as the exotic armor that helps your weapons out.

Sweet Business + War Rig = Bullet hose of fun

I have almost every gun in the game... for me, they are largely boring and mediocre, with a few notable exceptions. Sunshot is probably my favourite Destiny weapon ever. Tractor Canon is hilarious. There’s a handful of others that are effective, but not particularly exciting (Urial, Mida, etc). I did just get the new exotic grenade launcher that fires little robot spiders... haven’t tried it yet, but it sounds fun. At any rate, there are just hardly any weapons that have distinct and exciting personalities IMO.

That said, I do fully agree with you about the synergy aspect to some of the gear in D2. I wish they’d play that up a bit more.

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by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, December 22, 2017, 10:23 (2378 days ago) @ Funkmon

I just played Destiny. I didn't grind for stuff. I had a few things I would like to get, and then I played the game. Eventually I got them.

I understand a lot of people felt the pull to grind until they were burned out, but I never did. I just eventually got the stuff through playing.

I am still bitter that I could only enjoy Hawkmoon for a week, before it was nerfed in TTK. In fact, I never got to experience it in all its full glory. I loved hand cannons, but I didn't get to really play with this one the way someone did who got it on the first nightfall. Or people on XBox.

While I'm sure you get a rush when you get what you want, nobody talks about the disappointment when you don't.

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I'll talk about my disappointment.

by Funkmon @, Friday, December 22, 2017, 18:51 (2377 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I didn't have any.

Except once when I died right at the end of Skolas, I got upset and realized it wasn't healthy for me to keep playing the game like that, so I took a break.

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by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Sunday, December 24, 2017, 07:36 (2376 days ago) @ Cody Miller


While I'm sure you get a rush when you get what you want, nobody talks about the disappointment when you don't.

...what?

That is literally all ANYBODY talks about. Almost every thing I currently hear about or while playing Destiny is disappointment over rewards or the lack thereof.

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Do you have any idea how you got your gear?

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Friday, December 22, 2017, 06:39 (2378 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Even in Destiny 1, most of the exotic weapon "quests" were still just doing generic stuff like running around in patrol or whatever. The Black Spindle special mission though? That was awesome, if perhaps a touch too challenging. I'd love if there were more things like that but at different challenge levels. Secrets for people to find that result in a special reward. I'd love if each lost sector included a specific, legendary tier loot item to give us reasons to explore them all instead of just getting materials to bring back to each planetary vendor (maybe also include those materials, I can always shard a duplicate for gunsmith parts). That would give players a defined way to get specific loot. Sure, it's not a unique, individual story but it still gives you a way to tell people where you found your favorite gear so they can find it too. If lost sectors weren't just displayed on the map you could even just tell them it came from somewhere in the EDZ or whatever and let them discover it on their own.

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Do you have idea how you got your gear? Black Hammer, Thorn

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Friday, December 22, 2017, 08:37 (2378 days ago) @ Kahzgul

I remember black hammer. I also remember the struggle for Thorn. The random drops fade from memory. Yes even Gjallarhorn fades from memory.

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RNG is padding for lack of effort

by Durandal, Friday, December 22, 2017, 09:19 (2378 days ago) @ Kahzgul

While I like destination armor, there needs to be more forging/building and customization of it.

Instead of vendors flat out giving you armor pieces in exchange for currency, I'd like to see you gather parts from around the region, and be able to forge those into armor with perks and stats that you want, but with the appearance of that regions set. Perhaps with slight embellishments based on the materials used.

While this doesn't solve the "i grinded x strikes and x chests etc" problem, I don't think that is solvable currently. The game has a limited number of activities, and you will always be driven to play those activities.

I can see some vendors selling complete sets, but again they shouldn't randomly give you parts you should be able to get the set in stages as you turn in cash. At higher rep levels you should be able to get more customized gear. Rep levels would be part grind, but also a level up quest at certain points. Something unique to each faction.

So players who don't want to grind gear can just play the game and buy specific items from vendors, but players who really want to get specific combinations can forge very specific guns.

The main issue is as usual balance. Bungie doens't make all combinations of frame and perks available, so they don't test all variations. This is why we have such a range value in perks all through D1 and D2. Using the above system will inevitably have the internet putting out a metric tonne of bad youtube videos about which guns are perfect for any activity.

The other problem is the loot-splosion issue. People don't feel as rewarded when they don't get stuff from activities that they can use immediately. It would be like finishing a strike and getting a bunch of tokens and some weapons parts...hmmm, perhaps this isn't much of an issue after all. Leave raids and To9 to dump gear, and convert the rest of the game over?

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Do you have any idea how you got your gear?

by RaichuKFM @, Northeastern Ohio, Thursday, December 28, 2017, 13:56 (2372 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Honestly, while I'm completely fine with the animal that Destiny is (though I haven't played in a while and still have to finish CoO) and I'm willing to defend that, I don't think my personal valuation goes that way.

I remember how I got some things, not some others. The Quest Exotics in D1 and D2, of course; and I won't forget that time I got Gjallarhorn after Hard Mode Ir Yut, just because of how much the forum made it matter. I remember grinding Vanguard Marks in the first week of the game for ever just to pick up the vendor stock Doctor Nope. I forget how I got Zombie Apocalypse, mainly because I didn't realize how much I liked it for a long time.

Now, some of the quests, I liked. I have fond memories of Super Good Advice's, even though it was generic tasks, just because of the flavor; the mission to get Drang was fun, even though I don't like sidearms or hand cannons that much, but the bit in pursuit of Sturm was eh; getting MIDA with the Mini-Tool was fun, though, just because it gave an excuse to do a stupid silly thing I normally wouldn't do.

But grind can be frustrating, and the funny thing is, a quest to do something is still grind. Whether it's good grind or bad grind is in the eye of the player, and blah blah stuff everyone's been over. I don't really mind grind much, but lately I haven't had the time for it.

So, with this mess of a preamble ramble aside, I may as well get to my personal opinion. I don't really think either random drops or missions to get specific gear are the ideal, nor is any specific tuning of the mixture; what I think would be best is to just have all the loot already unlocked. You can use whatever. Maybe there are modes where you have to build an inventory, like in a linear campaign, or just have some modes where you pick your inventory from everything. You could have each gun have a customizable set of perks- possibly limited, to lessen the god rolls problem.

Make it a game I want to keep playing because I think it's fun- have fancy cosmetics to chase if it's really that important, but embrace the fact that it's already a sandbox.

No idea if this would lead to a more or less homogenous metagame, but I've never cared about metagames. I won't pretend this idea is actually definitely a good one; I don't really know enough to make that kind of judgement. It's just what I would like.

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