I can't get into modern television.

I have recently been made aware of the fact that I am behind on the "golden age of television". A co-worker expressed disbelief that I have never seen a single episode of Game of Thrones. "It's the greatest show on TV," he exclaimed, "how have you never seen it?!"

TV is a big commitment. You can usually sit down and watch a movie from beginning to end in 90 minutes or so, but never more than 3 hours, which is great for people like me who have to budget their play time between a host of different activities. A TV show demands that you get invested in the world, the characters, and the story over many days' of viewership, often requiring you to remember obscure details from past episodes at that. If the show gets boring or loses the plot, that's potentially 10-15 movies' worth of time you'll never get back. I enjoy episodic TV shows like SVU, but those seem to be in dwindling supply these days. I have always preferred the self-contained, efficient storytelling of movies.

However, I am aware that there are many shows that are now receiving the praise once reserved for great movies, and that television in general is becoming the medium of choice for "serious" writers, and so I have developed an interest in checking some of these shows out.

So I come to you, fellow denizens of DBO, to ask the double-barreled question: What TV shows are you watching, and should I be watching any of them?

I'll watch stories of any genre if they present a compelling narrative, but I tend to skew toward action science fiction. Some of my favorite films are Star Wars, The Matrix, and the X-Men franchise. I have never been able to get into the DCEU, and Marvel is almost like a TV show in the amount of material it commands you to digest. I do enjoy more cerebral films as well (Ex Machina being a great recent example), but if I'm going to watch an entire show's worth of material, I would rather watch one that plays to my interests seeing as I know those shows are out there now.

For reference, one of the few shows I do watch is Star Wars Rebels, which is pretty entertaining for a kid's show, although I will admit it's mostly the elements carried over from the far superior Clone Wars show that hold it up for me. (That show was fantastic, by the way. The first season was rough, but they quickly found their footing and told some great stories. If you haven't watched it, go watch it. If you're a Star Wars fan, it's a must-see.)

The most recent great television show I watched was Breaking Bad, which was indeed excellent, but the story felt complete and so I never felt the need to check out Better Call Saul even though I have heard that it too is fantastic.

I think I'm facing a crisis of oversaturation. There's so much "great" television now that I cannot narrow down the selection in any meaningful way.

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I do not have any form of cable or satellite service. I have Amazon Prime and I just buy the season passes for Rebels. It's a show I can watch with my son and simultaneously find something to enjoy for myself - although I'm happy to be recommended shows that are too mature for him! (He's ten.)

I do have bunny ears to pick up the broadcast networks.

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There are a variety of standard answers that I can fill in here. But the thing I suggest the most to people, regardless of their general taste for things is this:

Watch Hannibal.

It is currently on an indefinite hiatus after Season 3, and the seasons are in the dozen-or-so episodes structure more popular outside of US television. Basically everyone involved is interested in returning for a 4th season whenever the stars are right. It has a mix of police procedural (of the more popular ones it is more like Criminal Minds than anything else - also a good show if you are into that format).

Outside of that a few selections, in alphabetical:
Dark
Reference Stranger Things below, some folks like it more, some like it less. It's in German. I think it's a little less family friendly.
Dark Matter
An "They All have Amnesia episode: IN SPACE" series. It's interesting. I don't really have more I'd want to say because of the way the series starts out. Take a bite, see if it hooks.
Expanse, The
Based on a series of Novels. Colonized solar system. A lot more realistic science fiction than you usually get to witness on TV. I've found it quite enjoyable. Also, I consider Thomas Jane a plus in everything he's in.
iZombie
Based on a comic. Also not based on a comic. Think The Pretender but the main character is a Zombie. It's definitely much more focused than the comic, but it feels much more like a 90's TV show in concept in a good way.
Once Upon A Time
I fell off somewhere in Season 2 due to other events going on. But it's a very charming take on the modern Urban Fantasy/Fairytale genre. Probably the best of the bunch. It is a Disney property, so you see some of that show through, but it does enough interesting things with characters to really make itself its own. Watch it for Mr. Gold if nothing else.
Strain, The
Guillermo Del Toro does vampires in a modern setting. They aren't pretty. They are monsters. I'm pretty sure it's all from notebooks circa his Blade II production. Also, GDT originally pitched it as a TV series, wasn't picked up, and under suggestion, collaborated on some novels which then got it picked up for a TV series.
Stranger Things
Probably one of the best instances of pulling on nostalgia strings. Goonies, E.T., IT, Stand By Me, The Lost Boys. I could name more things that it is ephemerally or more solidly reminding of, but that gets the point. Also, S+ theme/opening and overall soundtrack. Season 2 is familiar to Season 1 but does a pretty solid job of not falling into a hole dug be the quality of the first.
Trollhunters
If you enjoy the SW animations, this is definitely worth being invested in. GDT again on the list. Season 2 was recently released and there are branching series about the town it takes place in (to include Aliens and Wizards) that were apparently part of the idea the whole time. It's fresh and interesting animation and storytelling.

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Unfortunately, anything on Netflix is going to be off limits for me. Hannibal does look interesting and I've heard great things about it. Might give that one a try. Dark Matter sounds right up my alley. Most of these shows sound fantastic, it's just a matter of picking one.

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Unfortunately, anything on Netflix is going to be off limits for me.

Well, he mentioned Stranger Things which does have DVD/BluRay releases. I did not like season 1 at all, but season 2 was okay.

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That's actually one of the shows that has never captivated my interest. I've become pretty sick of the nostalgia fad at this point. Endless remakes, revivals, and references. Intertextuality run amok. I know it's supposed to be a good show independent of that, but I just can't get into it. Not right now, anyway.

Maybe in a few years once this fad has died down... if it has by then.

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Maybe in a few years once this fad has died down... if it has by then.

You'll never get out of referential creativity, and most creators are now the ones who grew up on media by the folks who were creating in that era. That's near-literally everything anymore. Stranger Things does do a better job of holding its identity as the combination of elements than most things attempting to cash in on direct nostalgia or studio-driven remakes (as opposed to passion driven remakes) but ymmv.

Waiting a few years will probably work out well enough, though. A 3rd season is ordered, but the creators have said that they only intend on doing 2-3 more seasons, inclusive.

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I can't get into Game of Thrones personally.

The shows I'm currently enjoying a lot:

The Expanse - is based on some pretty solid theories on science and where the solar system will be in the future (and is probably the most realistic sci-fi show I've seen maybe ever, at least to start). Great story, and the seasons aren't too long. First season is on Amazon Prime.
Mr. Robot - really interesting story about a troubled young hacker activist. The hacking is actually incredibly realistic for the most part and it's got some cool psychological stuff going on. First two seasons are on Amazon Prime.
Brooklyn Nine-Nine - a comedy about cops that is probably the most consistently (but not funniest) funny comedy I've ever seen. Only streaming on Hulu with a subscription, but you could watch quite a bit with the free trial.
The Good Place - Comedy about a woman who goes to "The Good Place" (aka Heaven) but knows she doesn't belong there. The whole. First season is on Netflix. (DON'T skip ahead on this one, it won't be nearly as good).

One thing I do really like about modern TV is that they no longer make shows have 22-24 episodes per season. Everything I listed except Brooklyn Nine-Nine has ~13 episode seasons so they aren't intimidating shows to get into.

There are others, but I think these are probably my favorite shows on TV at the moment.

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Mr. Robot

This show sounds really intriguing. I actually remember almost watching it back in the first season, but life got in the way and I never got the chance. I think this might be first on my list to try.

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I do not have any form of cable or satellite service. I have Amazon Prime and I just buy the season passes for Rebels. It's a show I can watch with my son and simultaneously find something to enjoy for myself - although I'm happy to be recommended shows that are too mature for him! (He's ten.)

I do have bunny ears to pick up the broadcast networks.

If you haven't seen Game of Thrones yet, at this point it might be best to just wait till it all wraps in 2019. That way, you won't have to wait like the rest of us. It is NOT for 10 year olds.
Stranger Things. It's like Goosebumps, but for the 80's.
Mr. Robot. Do we wield our tools, or do our tools wield us?

Not as modern... but...

You may have herd of this show called "Breaking Bad". It's broken and it's bad. No one should ever watch it ever./s
Avatar: The Last Airbender is perfect. Ignore the Sequel TV show, it got squished in time and budget, so while there is some good, it is matched in bad as well. Your results my very.
Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (GITS:SAC) & Ghost in the Shell : 2nd GIG. It's an anime unlike so many other animes. It's a quality set of stories, with quality animation, with a quality english dub and a quality smart... SMART... plot of political & technical intrigue. DO NOT GET THE "TV" MOVIES, where they smashed all the episodes into a movie. The dub is different and they change the elements of the story from the series.

...and that is about as modern as I get. I would recommend Batman: The Animated Series, but some how that is no longer modern, since it was 1992-1995.

Shoot, while I'm at it - ever hear of M*A*S*H? Ok.. I better stop now while I can.

I just realized... I really don't watch much modern TV. I really miss the old TLC/History/Discovery shows when all they would air were Educational Documentaries. :/

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Mr. Robot

That's the second recommendation for this show, so I'm definitely putting it first in line.

Loved Breaking Bad. Great show. Perfect ending. Can't praise it enough.

I was a big animation fan back in the '90s when I still had time to watch a lot of TV. Batman was an instant classic. The art design alone was Emmy-worthy, to say nothing of the great stories and vocal performances. It's become standard now to praise Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill as the definitive versions of Batman and the Joker respectively, but it happens to be true. I still like Michael Keaton's interpretation of Batman quite a lot, but Conroy was given the opportunity to occupy that role so thoroughly that I struggle to see anyone topping him within my lifetime.

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[*]If you haven't seen Game of Thrones yet, at this point it might be best to just wait till it all wraps in 2019. That way, you won't have to wait like the rest of us. It is NOT for 10 year olds.

I agree on this. I mean, it is very good, and part of me wants to say "watch it now." But, like Insane says, it's very close to wrapping, and waiting for the new seasons is TORTURE on account of it being so good.

[*]Stranger Things. It's like Goosebumps, but for the 80's.

Having just watched all of Goosebumps recently, I'm not sure how. ST was originally intended to be an anthology series, sure, but it isn't anymore. Also Goosebumps is shockingly, viscerally terrible until like the middle of the 3rd season.

But anyway, yes on Stranger Things, and I actually need to add to the discussion of it above: I REALLY hate when people go to the nostalgia thing first when talking about that show, because I think it gives the impression that's all it has going on, or it's the main draw, but I really don't think it is. All its old-timey style really does is help you inhabit the world, if you're old enough to have had corded phones and tape recorders and that sort of thing (I have no idea how someone who didn't would process it). What it is, really, is a good story full of memorable characters and great, nuanced performances.

[*]You may have herd of this show called "Breaking Bad". It's broken and it's bad. No one should ever watch it ever./s

Rubbish. Breaking Bad is outstanding. Also, if anyone ever tells you the first 2 seasons aren't good (a common refrain), you should immediately and permanently discount that person's opinion on all stories. They do not understand world building or pacing, and consequently can't really appreciate a good payoff.

Shoot, while I'm at it - ever hear of M*A*S*H?

Oh damn, don't get me started on M*A*S*H. There might not be any show I like more. I've actually eaten at the original Tony Packo's cafe in Toledo, if that means anything to you.

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It’s basically Star Trek TNG with slightly funnier characters.

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So I come to you, fellow denizens of DBO, to ask the double-barreled question: What TV shows are you watching, and should I be watching any of them?

I can only watch two shows at a time.

One show is the show I sit, watch, and get into. This is where I devote time to it.

The other is what I call a 'laundry show', which is a show that I can put on while I put away laundry or do other chores.

Right now I am watching Mr. Robot season 3, with my laundry show being Friends.

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I'm pretty similar. I can do two or three at a time, but no more than that, hence my feeling of being overwhelmed by this onslaught of content.

In a way, it's great. Even if the quality of these shows goes down the tubes in a few years, we'll have decades of entertainment backlogged for future enjoyment.

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So I come to you, fellow denizens of DBO, to ask the double-barreled question: What TV shows are you watching, and should I be watching any of them?

I can only watch two shows at a time.

One show is the show I sit, watch, and get into. This is where I devote time to it.

The other is what I call a 'laundry show', which is a show that I can put on while I put away laundry or do other chores.

Right now I am watching Mr. Robot season 3, with my laundry show being Friends.

I follow the same rule.

Currently my main show is The Americans, which is excellent. It also has the benefit of winding up this year.

My laundry show at the moment is miscellaneous youtube vids. It has been The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt and Futurama (had to take the latter off the list because there are too many sight gags to watch while doing laundry).

Breaking Bad is indeed excellent, including the best episode of TV ever made (Ozymandias).

That said, I like Better Call Saul better. Maybe because I find Saul more likeable than Walter White. It's the only show I buy a la carte.

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Breaking Bad is indeed excellent, including the best episode of TV ever made (Ozymandias).

Everybody says that, but the Season 3 finale had me physically shaking because it was so tense. I had no idea how Walt would make it out. But by season 5, you could kind of see the beats coming.

For the show finale, we did a 'pick em', where you listed each character, whether they would live or die, and if they die who would kill them. I got every one correct.

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Breaking Bad is indeed excellent, including the best episode of TV ever made (Ozymandias).

Everybody says that, but the Season 3 finale had me physically shaking because it was so tense. I had no idea how Walt would make it out. But by season 5, you could kind of see the beats coming.

Also a good episode.

For the show finale, we did a 'pick em', where you listed each character, whether they would live or die, and if they die who would kill them. I got every one correct.

The last few episodes were fairly predictable, and I guess you could say Ozymandias was, too, but that's not a gripe. What made the show great was that the arc was envisioned from the beginning, and Gilligan stuck to it (that's not usually how TV series work if they're popular). If you had named the show "The Fall of Walter White," it would have been a completely accurate title but not as dramatic. Ozymandias was a culmination of everything before, the moment when WW lost his connection to his family, which (he thought) was his driving motivation. And it was expertly written, paced, and directed. Whodathunk that same director would go on to ruin Star Wars? ;-)

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Whodathunk that same director would go on to ruin Star Wars? ;-)

You mean actually save it?

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Whodathunk that same director would go on to ruin Star Wars? ;-)

You mean actually save it?

I'm seeing it again. I'll let you know in detail. But no. The narrative in the Last Jedi is seriously effed up. It has lots of messages, though--tons of messages. Political messages. Messages to old fans. Messages to new fans. Messages to non-fans. The entire movie is the director talking to the audience ahead of any other priority. It's lousy with messages. If getting beat over the head with a stick were art, it would be a masterpiece.

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I’ve seen TLJ three times and I really haven’t been able to parse complaints about narrative outside of pacing, related to length. It is really interesting to me how many different takes folks have gotten.

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I’ve seen TLJ three times and I really haven’t been able to parse complaints about narrative outside of pacing, related to length. It is really interesting to me how many different takes folks have gotten.

Think of it as a series of setups (large and small) without payoffs and the criticism begins to make sense--at least it did for me. Inconsistency within the universe is also a problem (not just from 40 years ago but from two years ago). A good narrative has a sense of inevitability to it, even if it surprises you. Because the movie treats audience expectations as toys to play with and offers little except surprise, by the end it's hard to care what happens. So much of the action leads to nothing because so much of the action was contrived strictly as a way to toy with expectations. There's a reason so many critics who praised it said explicitly that what they liked about it was it was an FU to its audience or to JJ Abrams or George Lucas or whomever. It's the UN-Star Wars. It's the most intellectual, the most postmodern, it's the most whatever is flattering to me because I "get it" and the rubes don't. Most of the elements they praise don't serve a good story. It serves how they feel about Star Wars itself and its traditional mythos. I find that people who have not really cared about Star Wars before LOVE this movie, and I think that's telling.

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I’ve seen TLJ three times and I really haven’t been able to parse complaints about narrative outside of pacing, related to length. It is really interesting to me how many different takes folks have gotten.

Think of it as a series of setups (large and small) without payoffs and the criticism begins to make sense

Except it all pays off. What setups have no payoff? I'm not trying to be hostile, but I must have just received the movie very differently than you.

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I’ve seen TLJ three times and I really haven’t been able to parse complaints about narrative outside of pacing, related to length. It is really interesting to me how many different takes folks have gotten.

Think of it as a series of setups (large and small) without payoffs and the criticism begins to make sense

Except it all pays off. What setups have no payoff? I'm not trying to be hostile, but I must have just received the movie very differently than you.

Rey needs training. No, she doesn't. Luke is here, No, he isn't. Snopes is super powerful. No, he isn't. We need to go to the gambling planet. No, we don't. Self-sacrifice is heroic. No, it isn't. Leia just died. No, she didn't. Yoda is here to uphold tradition. No, he isn't. Kylo is turning. No, he isn't. Guys are dumb jocks. Um, yeah, can't argue with you there.

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Rey needs training. No, she doesn't.

That's because Rey taught Luke.

Luke is here, No, he isn't.

Not sure I understand this one.

Snopes is super powerful. No, he isn't.

He was… He was just outsmarted.

We need to go to the gambling planet. No, we don't.

We do. The entire theme of the movie, that the future rebellion will be made up not of chosen ones, but of the downtrodden and oppressed of the galaxy. What do you think the boy force pulling the broom was all about?

Self-sacrifice is heroic. No, it isn't.

Except when Luke did it?

Leia just died. No, she didn't.

And then she did again. Too soon?

Yoda is here to uphold tradition. No, he isn't.

Yoda was never there to uphold tradition.

Kylo is turning. No, he isn't.

This is just misdirection, not a setup that doesn't pay off. He clearly hid his motives.

Guys are dumb jocks. Um, yeah, can't argue with you there.

Some are nerds!

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Rey needs training. No, she doesn't.

That's because Rey taught Luke.

And how did she learn what she taught him?

Luke is here, No, he isn't.

Not sure I understand this one.

Force ghost or whatever it's called.

Snopes is super powerful. No, he isn't.

He was… He was just outsmarted.

We need to go to the gambling planet. No, we don't.

We do. The entire theme of the movie, that the future rebellion will be made up not of chosen ones, but of the downtrodden and oppressed of the galaxy. What do you think the boy force pulling the broom was all about?

Yeah, which is why the critics who want Star Wars to be a Marxist critique are wetting their knickers. I've said here before. Star Wars doesn't do politics well. That's not a critique of Star Wars. There are more important things than politics, and Star Wars was about those things--something Joseph Campbell recognized about the first film. The hero's journey is obscured now by other concerns. Case in point: I know less about Rey two movies in than I knew about Luke ten minutes after I'd met him in the first film. Her character is praised because of what she is not who she is (as is the case with several other cast members). Princess Leia was a better feminist role model in 1977 than Rey is. Again, this movie is about messages, not narrative. It's a commentary about Star Wars more than a Star Wars movie.

I'll all for getting away from the chosen one crap--the embrace of which was one of the cardinal sins of the prequels. The Force as I see it is the force as first presented--a power available to anyone who has the discipline to dedicate themselves to it. Now it just seems to be a super power some have. They haven't mentioned midi-chlorians explicitly (thank God), but I'm not convinced that they're gone. We'll see how Rey's stolen books figure in going forward. As far as I'm concerned, though, the Force as an idea has been compromised in perhaps a worse way in that it's used as narrative silly putty in The Last Jedi. It's stretched into things it has never been in the service of surprising the audience. And when there aren't clear-cut rules about how an imaginary world operates, we stop believing it and worse stop caring. Tolkien understood this in his bones. I don't expect Rian Johnson to understand the fantasy genre as well, but he really doesn't seem to care about any rules of the genre, much less understand why they're there.

Self-sacrifice is heroic. No, it isn't.

Except when Luke did it?

Which might have had an impact on me had I cared at that point. The problem is I never believed it was Luke. And it's not that I couldn't believe that Luke could've become who he was in this movie, but such a substantial progression from who he was in the earlier films would've had to have been presented carefully, and as is, it was sloppy and unbelievable, starting from a premise I couldn't believe. Nor could Hamill, apparently, but I didn't find that out until later.

Leia just died. No, she didn't.

And then she did again. Too soon?

Yoda is here to uphold tradition. No, he isn't.

Yoda was never there to uphold tradition.

The Yoda I know would have been.

Kylo is turning. No, he isn't.

This is just misdirection, not a setup that doesn't pay off. He clearly hid his motives.

Call it misdirection then. A storyteller is allowed a few, but a story made up of a bunch of them strung together ceases to be believable.

Guys are dumb jocks. Um, yeah, can't argue with you there.

Some are nerds!

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I disagree with you on some of that.

I think Star Wars was the best movie because of Luke turning into a hero, but I consider the original trilogy, and the prequel trilogy, to be a LOTR style history. We follow some characters, but the point is to tell the story of the fall of the republic and the fall of the empire, in the prequels and original movies, respectively.

I don't have a problem with the force stuff. Throughout the original movies Luke is said to be strong with the force, indicating he was special. Yoda said as much. It's essentially confirmed with the conversation between Luke and Leia in ROTJ that it's a special gift. Anyone can gain knowledge of the force and use it, but few can manipulate it. Those few can be Jedi.

Luke doing the force doppelganger is consistent with EU Jedi powers, and it's some dumb magic, I don't even care what they say it can do, but it's admittedly a stretch, though not a far one considering how Luke, Vader, and Leia chatted to one another with it.

Yoda, over time, becomes more and more flexible with tradition as he realizes the ways of the Jedi have failed them. You see it in ROTS, and in ESB he is convinced to break with tradition and train Luke despite (or perhaps because of) what happened with Vader. By ROTJ Yoda says Luke's done training, presumably because the world has taught him enough.

Furthermore, Yoda, knowing Rey saved the Jedi books, knows the knowledge of the force and the Jedi will live on, even if the order does not.

Otherwise, I agree completely.

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I don't have a problem with the force stuff. Throughout the original movies Luke is said to be strong with the force, indicating he was special. Yoda said as much. It's essentially confirmed with the conversation between Luke and Leia in ROTJ that it's a special gift. Anyone can gain knowledge of the force and use it, but few can manipulate it. Those few can be Jedi.

There's also plenty of precedent in the old EU for the idea that The Force isn't necessarily just a passive resource for those special few to use. It can also be thought of as a living entity with goals all its own (play KotOR II: The Sith Lords for some interesting perspective on that), and sometimes those people who are strongly connected to The Force can find events happening around and to them which help achieve those goals. If The Force needs a certain person to prevail, that's what's going to happen, and it may act through them to make it so, even if they have no training or don't even know that The Force exists (check out the Darth Bane trilogy for a bit on that). The point being that it's not rule-breaking or even that weird for strongly Force-sensitive people to be able to perform extraordinary feats when it's needed. Training can make those things more accessible, and put the person themselves in more control as opposed to just being a passive tool (though a certain KotOR II character would caution that they may be fooling themselves), but extraordinary things tend to happen to these people whether they have training or not. Luke just happening to find R2, Leia just happening to get involved in the Resistance and run across her father, Luke just happening to be a master pilot. These things might not seem as flashy as Rey pulling a lightsaber through the air, but they're nearly as improbable. They happened because that was what was required.

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I don't have a problem with the force stuff. Throughout the original movies Luke is said to be strong with the force, indicating he was special. Yoda said as much. It's essentially confirmed with the conversation between Luke and Leia in ROTJ that it's a special gift. Anyone can gain knowledge of the force and use it, but few can manipulate it. Those few can be Jedi.

There's also plenty of precedent in the old EU for the idea that The Force isn't necessarily just a passive resource for those special few to use. It can also be thought of as a living entity with goals all its own (play KotOR II: The Sith Lords for some interesting perspective on that), and sometimes those people who are strongly connected to The Force can find events happening around and to them which help achieve those goals. If The Force needs a certain person to prevail, that's what's going to happen, and it may act through them to make it so, even if they have no training or don't even know that The Force exists (check out the Darth Bane trilogy for a bit on that). The point being that it's not rule-breaking or even that weird for strongly Force-sensitive people to be able to perform extraordinary feats when it's needed. Training can make those things more accessible, and put the person themselves in more control as opposed to just being a passive tool (though a certain KotOR II character would caution that they may be fooling themselves), but extraordinary things tend to happen to these people whether they have training or not. Luke just happening to find R2, Leia just happening to get involved in the Resistance and run across her father, Luke just happening to be a master pilot. These things might not seem as flashy as Rey pulling a lightsaber through the air, but they're nearly as improbable. They happened because that was what was required.

I'll defer to your knowledge regarding the EU. Confession time: I never been a bigger fan of anything than I was for the first two movies. RotJ was slightly disappointing but still great. After that, not so much a fan, although I did enjoy the first two new films. My knowledge of the EU doesn't extend much past Splinter in the Mind's Eye, which was great. I've never seen Clone Wars, and didn't make it far into KotOR.

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Yeah, which is why the critics who want Star Wars to be a Marxist critique are wetting their knickers. I've said here before. Star Wars doesn't do politics well. That's not a critique of Star Wars. There are more important things than politics, and Star Wars was about those things--something Joseph Campbell recognized about the first film.

I thought Star Wars was an allegory for WW2 fascism. Vietnam too. It's always been about Politics. Lucas even says so. Even the prequels were critical of Bush Jr.

I'll all for getting away from the chosen one crap--the embrace of which was one of the cardinal sins of the prequels. The Force as I see it is the force as first presented--a power available to anyone who has the discipline to dedicate themselves to it. Now it just seems to be a super power some have. They haven't mentioned midi-chlorians explicitly (thank God), but I'm not convinced that they're gone. We'll see how Rey's stolen books figure in going forward. As far as I'm concerned, though, the Force as an idea has been compromised in perhaps a worse way in that it's used as narrative silly putty in The Last Jedi. It's stretched into things it has never been in the service of surprising the audience. And when there aren't clear-cut rules about how an imaginary world operates, we stop believing it and worse stop caring. Tolkien understood this in his bones. I don't expect Rian Johnson to understand the fantasy genre as well, but he really doesn't seem to care about any rules of the genre, much less understand why they're there.

I think Empire is guilty of this too is it not? In Star Wars, the force was just something that aided your actions. Like a feeling or another sense. Then later you could pull objects, see into the future, talk through space, or shoot lightning.

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Yeah, which is why the critics who want Star Wars to be a Marxist critique are wetting their knickers. I've said here before. Star Wars doesn't do politics well. That's not a critique of Star Wars. There are more important things than politics, and Star Wars was about those things--something Joseph Campbell recognized about the first film.

I thought Star Wars was an allegory for WW2 fascism. Vietnam too. It's always been about Politics. Lucas even says so. Even the prequels were critical of Bush Jr.

And the hamfistedness of that was a low point of the prequels. Regarding WW2, yes, Lucas was definitely interested in WW2 films as inspiration, but the politics weren't front and center. Just because Nazi-esque uniforms served as good visual shorthand for evil didn't make the movie an allegory of WW2. (This reminds me of my eighth-grade teacher who insisted that we all write papers about how Star Wars was a retelling of the Wizard of Oz--as if that were it's only inspiration.) Regarding Vietnam, what director in the 70s hasn't sought to bolster his street cred by saying he was influenced by Vietnam? I repeat: the political takeaways from the Star Wars universe have always been problematic--case in point.

I'll all for getting away from the chosen one crap--the embrace of which was one of the cardinal sins of the prequels. The Force as I see it is the force as first presented--a power available to anyone who has the discipline to dedicate themselves to it. Now it just seems to be a super power some have. They haven't mentioned midi-chlorians explicitly (thank God), but I'm not convinced that they're gone. We'll see how Rey's stolen books figure in going forward. As far as I'm concerned, though, the Force as an idea has been compromised in perhaps a worse way in that it's used as narrative silly putty in The Last Jedi. It's stretched into things it has never been in the service of surprising the audience. And when there aren't clear-cut rules about how an imaginary world operates, we stop believing it and worse stop caring. Tolkien understood this in his bones. I don't expect Rian Johnson to understand the fantasy genre as well, but he really doesn't seem to care about any rules of the genre, much less understand why they're there.

I think Empire is guilty of this too is it not? In Star Wars, the force was just something that aided your actions. Like a feeling or another sense. Then later you could pull objects, see into the future, talk through space, or shoot lightning.

To some extent, perhaps, but a big difference is that for the most part these characteristics were introduced before they were necessary to advance the plot.

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I am with Cody regarding SW and politics. I can’t say i either agree or disagree with your assessment of Leia v. Rey as feminist role models (albeit account for a variety of things in 201X she provides a lot of things to young girls which far eclipse what Leia would give them now) as that is an essay in itself.

Nor could Hamill, apparently, but I didn't find that out until later.

But this? He has explicitly stated that he was wrong and the movie was better for it. No, it was not the Luke he had imagined, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t who Luke would or should have become. (It also parallels through the OT and PT with the folly of bloodlines and reiterates that Luke is still a person - underscores it - because it was an important character step beyond what he was at the end of RotJ.)

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I am with Cody regarding SW and politics. I can’t say i either agree or disagree with your assessment of Leia v. Rey as feminist role models (albeit account for a variety of things in 201X she provides a lot of things to young girls which far eclipse what Leia would give them now) as that is an essay in itself.

For one thing, the character of Leia seemed like a real person with a real personality.

Nor could Hamill, apparently, but I didn't find that out until later.

But this? He has explicitly stated that he was wrong and the movie was better for it. No, it was not the Luke he had imagined, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t who Luke would or should have become. (It also parallels through the OT and PT with the folly of bloodlines and reiterates that Luke is still a person - underscores it - because it was an important character step beyond what he was at the end of RotJ.)

Of course Luke is still a person with flaws and all. I didn't say Luke could not become who he was in The Last Jedi. I said, in effect, that the line between his character in TLJ and his character before wasn't sufficiently drawn. I maintain that.

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I’ve known as many “Leias” as I’ve known “Reys” so that doesn really parse for me. But I can understand feeling like there wasn’t a clear path between RotJ!Luke and TLJ!Luke. Part of that is the muddying of waters with how legend!Luke is spoken of during TFA and even with all the build up and the ending is sort of throws a loop for his progression. I don’t, personally, feel that is the fault of TLJ, but I also don’t know where I would peg fault with it elsewhere.

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Part of that is the muddying of waters with how legend!Luke is spoken of during TFA and even with all the build up and the ending is sort of throws a loop for his progression. I don’t, personally, feel that is the fault of TLJ, but I also don’t know where I would peg fault with it elsewhere.

I don't think it IS a fault in progression TBH. It's the point - those legends were just whatever other people thought/expected Luke to be. The fault is in assuming that those tales were reality.

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Part of that is the muddying of waters with how legend!Luke is spoken of during TFA and even with all the build up and the ending is sort of throws a loop for his progression. I don’t, personally, feel that is the fault of TLJ, but I also don’t know where I would peg fault with it elsewhere.

I don't think it IS a fault in progression TBH. It's the point - those legends were just whatever other people thought/expected Luke to be. The fault is in assuming that those tales were reality.

I don't even remember what exactly they said about him in TFA, so that doesn't factor in to what I'm talking about. I'm talking only about Luke Skywalker as his character is revealed in the first three movies. THAT character is inconsistent with Luke in TLJ. He certainly could have become that character, but not enough information is given to convince me. The in-between Luke that is shown is already out of character. It doesn't make sense that the character who faced Darth Vader while also giving him a shot at redemption is ready to murder his nephew in this sleep because of a vibe.

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Part of that is the muddying of waters with how legend!Luke is spoken of during TFA and even with all the build up and the ending is sort of throws a loop for his progression. I don’t, personally, feel that is the fault of TLJ, but I also don’t know where I would peg fault with it elsewhere.

I don't think it IS a fault in progression TBH. It's the point - those legends were just whatever other people thought/expected Luke to be. The fault is in assuming that those tales were reality.

I don't even remember what exactly they said about him in TFA, so that doesn't factor in to what I'm talking about. I'm talking only about Luke Skywalker as his character is revealed in the first three movies. THAT character is inconsistent with Luke in TLJ. He certainly could have become that character, but not enough information is given to convince me. The in-between Luke that is shown is already out of character. It doesn't make sense that the character who faced Darth Vader while also giving him a shot at redemption is ready to murder his nephew in this sleep because of a vibe.

I think that moment is crucial. While we are watching the flashback, Luke is explaining that he saw such darkness Ben, such lack of hope, that it terrified him and for a brief moment he saw so other choice. This is not an inconsistency with Luke's character, this is drawing a distinction between Ben and Vader. In RotJ, Luke said multiple times that he saw/felt good in vader, or conflict. in other words, he saw hope of redemption. But when he looked into Ben's mind, he saw no hope at all.

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Also don’t forget that Luke in the OT gives into Fear and Anger on multiple occasions, especially during the end of the Vader duel in RotJ, and is only stopped from hacking his dad apart by the realization that this is the path he would be led down because he chapped off Vader’s hand.

Luke succumbing to a moment of weakness and stopping himself isn’t outside of the character established in the OT. Especially when he is doing it with a notion that he is protecting something.

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Also don’t forget that Luke in the OT gives into Fear and Anger on multiple occasions, especially during the end of the Vader duel in RotJ, and is only stopped from hacking his dad apart by the realization that this is the path he would be led down because he chapped off Vader’s hand.

Luke succumbing to a moment of weakness and stopping himself isn’t outside of the character established in the OT. Especially when he is doing it with a notion that he is protecting something.

He's also prone to giving up, feeling defeated, acting recklessly... Really, the way some people talk about Luke in the OT is very different from the Luke that was actually shown in the OT. He was always deeply flawed, but came through when it mattered most. Which is exactly what he does in TLJ.

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Also don’t forget that Luke in the OT gives into Fear and Anger on multiple occasions, especially during the end of the Vader duel in RotJ, and is only stopped from hacking his dad apart by the realization that this is the path he would be led down because he chapped off Vader’s hand.

Luke succumbing to a moment of weakness and stopping himself isn’t outside of the character established in the OT. Especially when he is doing it with a notion that he is protecting something.

He's also prone to giving up, feeling defeated, acting recklessly... Really, the way some people talk about Luke in the OT is very different from the Luke that was actually shown in the OT. He was always deeply flawed, but came through when it mattered most. Which is exactly what he does in TLJ.

He was driven to anger in the OT, yes, but what we witness is someone about to commit premeditated murder. Yes, Luke has always had his insecurities, and BECAUSE OF THAT I have trouble believing he can be 100% sure he must murder his nephew in cold blood. Kylo hasn't been presented to US as wholly evil--he obviously has his own struggles making himself do the evil thing that must be done, which makes it that much harder to buy this Luke-must-kill-baby-Hitler backstory. I can see Luke being beside himself with grief over failure. I can't imagine him as the flippant, pessimistic, bitter old man he is in The Last Jedi. The Luke I knew was human, sometimes easily frustrated (most often with himself), but the concept of the Jedi and the idea of becoming one was obviously his most fervent wish. That he would abandon that idealism so completely is a big deal. We don't see his optimism appear and be broken. We see a brief flashback and hear a description of events, but otherwise we're asked to accept his personality change without question. The kindness and goodheartedness that was his nature is gone and we don't get to see it leave. It's jarring and off-putting, and like I've been saying, seems part of a larger pattern where confounding expectations is the entire point of the film.

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commit premeditated murder

Citation needed.

There are 3 Rashamon-inspired flashbacks. One with no Lightsaber. One from the perspective of a scared child already poisoned by the darkside. One from an uncle who feels that his instinctual readying of his lightsaber was abhorent. I think this is very deliberately done to illustrate a shame Luke has and does it well. By the end of RotJ, and as is illustrated through his mentions in TFA, Luke was considered a legend, and in TLJ he admits he was struck down by pride - by believing his own legend. And that is very human. Even more human than Luke behaved throughout RotJ except when he embraced anger and struck down Vader.

At least that is where I am coming from and still having a hard time marrying what you describe to what is on screen.

I am really enjoying this discussion beeteedubs. Most of the folks I’ve discussed it with came away with a similar perspective re: Luke as I did. So it is refreshing to hear about other interpretations that don’t just claim character homocide.

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commit premeditated murder

Citation needed.

There are 3 Rashamon-inspired flashbacks. One with no Lightsaber. One from the perspective of a scared child already poisoned by the darkside. One from an uncle who feels that his instinctual readying of his lightsaber was abhorent. I think this is very deliberately done to illustrate a shame Luke has and does it well. By the end of RotJ, and as is illustrated through his mentions in TFA, Luke was considered a legend, and in TLJ he admits he was struck down by pride - by believing his own legend. And that is very human. Even more human than Luke behaved throughout RotJ except when he embraced anger and struck down Vader.

At least that is where I am coming from and still having a hard time marrying what you describe to what is on screen.

I am really enjoying this discussion beeteedubs. Most of the folks I’ve discussed it with came away with a similar perspective re: Luke as I did. So it is refreshing to hear about other interpretations that don’t just claim character homocide.

You perfectly described what I was trying to say. Luke’s actions were instinctual. That line in and of itself communicates the magnitude of what he saw when he searched Ben’s feelings. He saw such darkness and anger that he involuntarily drew his lightsaber. Luke Skywalker, who stood alone next to Vader AND the Emporer and kept his cool (for a while), was so freaked out that his threat-detection instincts took over and he drew his weapon.

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Also don’t forget that Luke in the OT gives into Fear and Anger on multiple occasions, especially during the end of the Vader duel in RotJ, and is only stopped from hacking his dad apart by the realization that this is the path he would be led down because he chapped off Vader’s hand.

Luke succumbing to a moment of weakness and stopping himself isn’t outside of the character established in the OT. Especially when he is doing it with a notion that he is protecting something.

He's also prone to giving up, feeling defeated, acting recklessly... Really, the way some people talk about Luke in the OT is very different from the Luke that was actually shown in the OT. He was always deeply flawed, but came through when it mattered most. Which is exactly what he does in TLJ.

He was driven to anger in the OT, yes, but what we witness is someone about to commit premeditated murder.

I think it’s very important to remember that Luke stopped himself. It was, as he points out, a moment of weakness and of panic.

In my eyes, one of the main themes of TLJ was the weight of time and expectations. The young heros grow up under the weight of crushing responsibility. More than anyone else, Luke is seen as the “saviour of the galaxy”. He feels the burden of ushering in a new time of peace, while also facing the far more personal responsibility of taking his nephew under his wing. For him to look into his Nephew’s heart and see something WORSE than Darth Vader, to see the threat Ben would become, and to realize that it all developed right under his nose... that would be enough to damage anyone. And then for Luke to have his momentary panic push Ben over the edge, leading to the murder of all Luke’s students and whatever other havoc Ben proceeded to cause... for me, that fully justifies Luke’s apparent transformation. He was right and wrong at the same time, and his failure to handle the situation properly led to murderouse consequences and the metaphorical loss of his nephew.

On top of that, there’s the very accurate realization that Luke repeated the mistakes of Yoda’s Jedi Order. Considering the circumstances of everything that went down, I can totally understand how Luke could convince himself that the Jedi need to end.

Yes, Luke has always had his insecurities, and BECAUSE OF THAT I have trouble believing he can be 100% sure he must murder his nephew in cold blood. Kylo hasn't been presented to US as wholly evil--he obviously has his own struggles making himself do the evil thing that must be done, which makes it that much harder to buy this Luke-must-kill-baby-Hitler backstory. I can see Luke being beside himself with grief over failure. I can't imagine him as the flippant, pessimistic, bitter old man he is in The Last Jedi. The Luke I knew was human, sometimes easily frustrated (most often with himself), but the concept of the Jedi and the idea of becoming one was obviously his most fervent wish. That he would abandon that idealism so completely is a big deal. We don't see his optimism appear and be broken. We see a brief flashback and hear a description of events, but otherwise we're asked to accept his personality change without question. The kindness and goodheartedness that was his nature is gone and we don't get to see it leave.

This is just my read on the OT, but Luke never struck me as particularly optimistic. When we meet him he is more naeve, rash, and impulsive than anything else. Pretty typical of his age, really. He agrees to become a Jedi not out of some deep commitment to the cause or the order, but because he wanted to leave home anyway and this opportunity was right in front of him. Plus he was angry about what happened to his family and wanted some revenge. And it wasn’t optimism that drove him to confront Vader at the end of RotJ. It was a pragmatic decision (Vader was tracking Luke through the force, so Luke needed to draw him away from Han and Leia), plus Luke felt an emotional obligation to reach out to Vader, given the internal conflict he’d already sensed. Luke went with Vader expecting to die while buying his friends some time. Heroic, but certainly not optimistic. In fact, I’d say his lack of optimism is directly tied to the magnitude of his heroism in RotJ.

It's jarring and off-putting, and like I've been saying, seems part of a larger pattern where confounding expectations is the entire point of the film.

I agree that confounding expectations was a large point of TLJ, but I personally think Johnson was very smart about picking the correct expectations to flip or dismantle. I think he went after the expectations that were suffocating the franchise and limiting the storytelling potential of anyone involved in making new Star Wars movies. The message to me was “stop emphasizing things that done matter”. Rey’s parentage doesn’t actually matter. Snoke’s backstory is irrelevant. Poe being a hotheaded lose cannon isn’t actually a good thing. And no, Luke isn’t the beacon of hope and optimism that Star Wars fans have retroactively turned him into. If anything, the true beacon of hope through the OT was Leia, and I felt TLJ finally hammered that point home.

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You've put my thoughts into words better than I could have. Well said.

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Rey needs training. No, she doesn't. Luke is here, No, he isn't. Snopes is super powerful. No, he isn't. We need to go to the gambling planet. No, we don't. Self-sacrifice is heroic. No, it isn't. Leia just died. No, she didn't. Yoda is here to uphold tradition. No, he isn't. Kylo is turning. No, he isn't. Guys are dumb jocks. Um, yeah, can't argue with you there.

While I had thoughts to the prior post that would need additional gestation, this is actually probably more to what was causing said boggle.

Because I don't see any of those things as "No, X Yn't" because the movie actually sets most of those things up previous to the occurrences. For example:

Rey needs training.

And fails in her endeavors as she makes a mistake that she must learn from. She is far from not needing more training, but it is a parallel to Luke taking the bait in ESB which is one more reason he warns her against leaving. She is convinced she does not need training from Luke, so she fails to understand the lesson, which is telegraphed throughout her time on Ahch-To.

Self-sacrifice is heroic.

At no point does the movie actually speak about self-sacrifice as being heroic in the sense of our own aspirations. There is a mention of "dead heroes" after the costly, questionably successful opening attack - but that is used to underscore the fault of that thinking and emphasize that temporary victories are not always worth their costs. They telegraphed pretty far in advance that self sacrifice is costly and to be avoided except when left with no choice. This is why Poe is reprimanded in the beginning, Fynn is interrupted, and Rey is shown that her sacrificing her for the good she felt in Ben Solo is a failure - but Holdo is celebrated for protecting what she loved. I don't think Luke counts, because if he isn't a force ghost in IX I will eat my hat. (Not really, I like my hats)

Guys are dumb jocks.

Luke doesn't actually exist in this movie. Also, Don't Join.

Okay, I'm mostly being cheeky there. And I have points for everything on that list. I understand it is hyperbole to get a point across, but I think that line of thinking rides a tangent and doesn't reflect the film. I would be interested to see a perspective as such presented that is supported by the narrative, but most of what has gone around the internet hasn't been that.

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I don't think Luke counts, because if he isn't a force ghost in IX I will eat my hat. (Not really, I like my hats)

We don't eat hat's in these parts. We prefer socks.

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- No text -

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Rey needs training. No, she doesn't. Luke is here, No, he isn't. Snopes is super powerful. No, he isn't. We need to go to the gambling planet. No, we don't. Self-sacrifice is heroic. No, it isn't. Leia just died. No, she didn't. Yoda is here to uphold tradition. No, he isn't. Kylo is turning. No, he isn't. Guys are dumb jocks. Um, yeah, can't argue with you there.

I don't really have anything to add, I just felt compelled to say I loved it, and it's going a long way towards making Star Wars fun again for me. I really enjoyed The Force Awakens, too, but The Last Jedi is much more interesting and exciting. I genuinely don't agree with most of the complaints about The Last Jedi (except for the wonky pacing, which is more forgivable on repeated viewings).

I don't really like the way the conversation around the movie has played out. I don't like anyone arguing from a stance of "you just didn't get it!"

I really like what they did with the Star Wars universe, and Luke's character especially. It's much more interesting than the old EU where Luke sets up a successful academy and becomes a superhero, training literally everyone in his extended family. I understand why it may have rubbed some folks the wrong way, but I loved washed up, bitter Luke that came back and found his redemption without having to actually pick up a lightsaber again.

I also sort of feel like people get too hung up on the details. I wouldn't tell anyone they're wrong for doing so, but most of the arguments against this new trilogy are equally true for the original trilogy. That feels like a stupid thing to argue, though, and honestly, the whole debate comes off as a little silly the more often I see it.

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I also sort of feel like people get too hung up on the details. I wouldn't tell anyone they're wrong for doing so, but most of the arguments against this new trilogy are equally true for the original trilogy. That feels like a stupid thing to argue, though, and honestly, the whole debate comes off as a little silly the more often I see it.

Since you mentioned it, here's the details that really hung up on me. Spoilers ahead.

- Bombers that have to fly directly "over" a ship to drop bombs? How does that make any sense in space? Lightning McQueen already blew up all the turrets, so why not lob them from a safe distance? They couldn't have shot all the bombs before they hit the ship.

- What was the point of looking for the guy with the lapel pin if they can get just some random drunk to crack the codes? If ol' what's her face that had Luke's lightsaber in TFA knew the guy with the lapel pin, why didn't she just tell them his name, or even give them his number instead of some random article of clothing he might have on. If you said to me "Hey, Blue, we need this safe opened to get this antidote or we're all going to die in the next 24 hours", and I say "Cool, there's a guy in Las Vegas who can open it. He's wearing green pants" you would be demanding a lot more information.

- Apparently the guy on the big First Order ship that mans the radar was playing Galaga and not noticing all these ships flying off to that nearby planet that nobody noticed until the last 15 minutes.

- Finn and his new girlfriend have a feel good time sticking it to those rich snobs and stealing those not-horses, but I just assumed they were all recaptured or shot from the air the next morning.

- Finn's about to be all noble and sacrafice himself to save his friends. I better wrecklessly crash my ship into his, potentially killing him anyway and negating his sacrafice for the off chance I can give him a kiss.

- I like Laura Dern, but purple hair Laura Dern got on my nerves.

- Put a shirt on Kylo Ren. You're not going to get a force connected makeout session.

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- Bombers that have to fly directly "over" a ship to drop bombs? . . .

It is a little ridiculous. I mean, SW has almost always played the "Aircraft and Naval ships: IN SPACE" card pretty hard so I suspend disbelief. But it is not tactically sensible.

- What was the point of looking for the guy with the lapel pin if they can get just some random drunk to crack the codes? . . .

I think that was why she was having a "Union Dispute" so that she could be pre-occupied when providing info. If she wasn't she said she could have done it. Also, plot contrivance to include DJ. (More on that in a moment.)

- Apparently the guy on the big First Order ship that mans the radar was playing Galaga . . .

They specifically identify that the transports are cloaked and that means that a broad scan with the instruments, focused on the larger ships, won't notice them, they are at a range where the First Order's weapons are negligible to cruisers. It isn't until DJ sells them out (after overhearing the conversation between Finn and Poe and them getting caught) that the First Order starts actively scanning for transports.

- Finn's about to be all noble and sacrafice himself to save his friends . . .

I can understand this interpretation. But I felt the purpose is to reorient him away from doing it because he hates the first order, which overrides his protective actions.

- Put a shirt on Kylo Ren . . .

But how else would we establish with the reverse cutaways in a clear concise way that they can, in fact, see each other and that they are not imaginary manifestations? At least this post wasn't accompanied with the Kylo Green Milk comic.

I'll be honest. Some of these things got on my nerves more (mostly the Canto Bight stuff and the initial space battle) during my first viewing but have mellowed after the subsequent viewings. Definitely not perfect, and I have a few beeves myself with it. But, eh.

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I hated Dr. Sattler being able to take out those ships with a jump to lightspeed, and the bombs were dumb.

Then I rewatched the movies, and noticed an entire Star Destroyer was taken out by a small fighter suicide running into the bridge in the original trilogy. I don't remember which movie, but I think it was the worst one (ROTJ). Why not Kamikaze all star destroyers?

This confirmed for me that all space battles in Star Wars are stupid. They have no rules.

Once you get past that, the rest of the dumb stuff is okay.

You just have to realize that Star Wars is dumb now, and they've stopped making movies that tell a story about neat things, and have started making movies that have neat things in them with a story that serves those purposes.

I mean, say what you want about the prequels, but it was about the fall of a republic, warmongering, and the failures of the Jedi. The original movies were about the triumph of the people over a totalitarian, oppressive regime, and the redemption of the Jedi. The sequels are about...I guess the triumph of a militaristic sect of the republic against an unsanctioned militia, the failure of the Jedi again, and uhhh...

But the sequels are still good movies, still good to watch, they just have no point anymore. The story isn't worth telling. Rogue One was, so there's hope that at least the one off films will be good for SW fans.

Again, they've taken the rules for space battles and applied them to the whole movie. If you accept that, you enjoy the new ones more.

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You just have to realize that Star Wars is dumb now

I know. Unpopular opinion here. But Star Wars has always been kinda dumb. It’s very pulpy. A lot of occurances throughout feel arbitrary to serve the wider narrative. I could make arguments about perceptions for and against, but I think it is important that the Sequel Trilogy, thusfar, hasn’t ventured that far from the OT or PT in terms of overall pulp/dumb/etc. levels.

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Right. Now the rules that govern little parts of the story we all took for granted are writ large on the story as a whole. It's dumb, and that's fine.

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You just have to realize that Star Wars is dumb now

I know. Unpopular opinion here. But Star Wars has always been kinda dumb. It’s very pulpy. A lot of occurances throughout feel arbitrary to serve the wider narrative. I could make arguments about perceptions for and against, but I think it is important that the Sequel Trilogy, thusfar, hasn’t ventured that far from the OT or PT in terms of overall pulp/dumb/etc. levels.

- Sir, an escape pod just launched. Laser annoys are locked on. Should I destroy it?

- Nnnoooooo don’t bother.

- ... but... I’m locked on. It’ll take like 2 seconds.

- We scanned it for lifesigns for some reason, and found none. So it’s not worth even the most minimal effort or attention.

- But, I mean, it takes nothing. Like it would have been destroyed 15 seconds ago if you’d just said “fire”. It will use 0.00000009% of our energy reserves.

- I don’t want to file the paperwork.

- ... seriously?

- Yeah.

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The two best sitcoms to ever grace television: Scrubs and Parks & Recreation.

I have seen every episode of scrubs literally ten or twelve times. It's the only show I own on DVD. I used to watch the show every single night before bed. It's funny, heartwarming, heartbreaking, thoughtful . . . it's just a very good show.

Parks & Recreation is very similar, just replacing running a hospital with small town government.

I don't actually know that either is on Amazon, but I'd have to imagine they both are.

Granted you said "modern" TV, and scrubs has been over for a decade now, and Park and Rec has been done for probably half that long, so I'm not sure they meet that qualifier, but they're damn good shows.

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Ditto on Scrubs. That show should be mandatory IMO.

Haven't seen Parks & Rec yet, but it's on my list.

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Haven't seen Parks & Rec yet, but it's on my list.

Don't judge it by the first season. They reworked it after that season. The next 2 or 3 are good, but it started losing me toward the end.

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I've also never seen GoT and also agree that "watching tv" could be a full time hobby. My wife and I used to get into shows and series...but then we had a kid so our tv time is limited to 1 show per night, usually. We also don't feel like getting emotionally invested in stuff, we would rather veg out to something brainless. Competition reality shows have become our bread and butter.

(Channels listed below was how we consumed it.)

Face Off - SyFy - Makeup artists create movie costumes and makeups
Skin Wars - Netflix - Body painting competition
Project Runway - Lifetime/Hulu - Fashion designers act dramatic and sometimes make clothes.
Chopped - Food/Hulu - Chefs are given random ingredients and minimal time to make gourmet meals.
Master Chef - Fox/Hulu - Gordan Ramsey yells at amateur chefs and everything is way too dramatic.
Forged in Fire - History - Blacksmiths are tasked with making swords and various weapons using random stuff.
Top Shot - History/Good luck finding it because "guns" - Marksmen shooters use various weapons in various skills challenges to declare who is the "top shooter."
Broken Skull Challenge - CMT - Stone Cold Steve Austin yells at a bunch of lunks while they compete head to head in muddy crossfit competitions.
Steampunke'd - ??? - People turn regular things into Steampunk things. It wasn't that great but if you like steampunk stuff, you might dig it.
King of the Nerds - ??? - This was a guilty pleasure. It wasn't a good show but worth a laugh. I'm not one to nerdshame but these were some odd cats.

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Caveat, I'm married and 90% of my television watching is with my wife. So with that I'll group them into those categories.
The other categories are whether we are stressed out and want to watch a stressed out drama vs a more "silly" show. So I'll mark shows accordingly. Just in case, these are my views not my wife's ;-)

Me and the wife:

Suits - Stresser, inteligent, awesome, 45 minutes

Game of Thrones - Yes, we watch it. It's really solid. It's a stresser/drama. But I have no problem meeting other people, getting to know them, and never recommending this show.

Supergirl - light hearted, fun, 45 minutes

The Flash - light hearted, fun, 45 minutes

Psych - Really light hearted/funny, we both watch. Often a nightcap if we can do 45 minutes

Silicon Valley - Straight comedy, often a nightcap if we can only do 22 minutes

Big Bang Theory - Straight comedy, often a nightcap if we can only do 22 minutes

The Ranch - Straight comedy, often a nightcap if we can only do 22 minutes

Solo shows:

The Arrow - Another DC comic show (along with Supergirl and The Flash) but more violent. It's a good background watching time killer.

House of Cards - Heavy, drama, and you have to tolerate politics (which my wife doesn't do well), but incredible acting and writing. Certain earned every award it's received.

The Expanse - Solid modern science-fi that Xenos and I both love, but for completely different reasons :)

Fate/Stay Night - Anime, English dubbed. I'm not a HUGE anime fan but I've watched maybe 4 complete anime shows over time. This one (so far) has some great writing, such that watching previous episodes actually reveals things I should have caught the first time around... and I pride myself on never missing clues.

Discovery (watch with brother) - The newest Star Trek. Love it. Can go into details or can trade blows if you want to come to Seattle :-)

Agents of Shield (watch with friend) - Solid start, meh middle ground, intriguing current season. Lacking a friend that cares the first few seasons make for a good background show. For example I watched Seasons 1 and 2 while playing Civilization :-)

Feel free to inquire about any particular show. In the mean time I'm going to go reconsider life decisions considering how many shows I watch...

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Fate/Stay Night - Anime, English dubbed. I'm not a HUGE anime fan but I've watched maybe 4 complete anime shows over time. This one (so far) has some great writing, such that watching previous episodes actually reveals things I should have caught the first time around... and I pride myself on never missing clues.

I’d encourage you to follow up with Fate/Zero if you haven’t already watched it. It is very good. It’s a prequel to Stay Night, but that kinda works in its favor since you sorta understand who you are watching and the stakes that are being set up. Then, the more recent Unlimited Blade Works is also very good from what I’ve seen and heard. (I just haven’t watched through the entire thing yet, but everything I have seen was excellent. And very beautiful art wise. The fans don’t call it Unlimited Budget Works for nothin’.)

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Not Going Out is great. Here is some information from wikipedia. It is full of cheap laughs and puns. Bonus is that it's an English show, so you don't have to wade through a lot.

The series focuses on Lee Mack who plays a fictional version of himself; an unambitious man in his late thirties living as a lodger in a flat in London Docklands.[8] Originally from Chorley, Lancashire[9] (which is approximately 20 mi from Southport, where Lee Mack originates in real life), Lee is a negligent, unmotivated layabout. Frequently between jobs, he spends most of his days on his sofa watching television or down at the local pub with his best friend, Tim Adams (Tim Vine), an accountant who owns the flat in which Lee is a lodger. He is also noted for his cheeky wit and for having a very troubled relationship with his father, with whom he shares many traits and who openly mentions that Lee was unplanned and resulted in the end of his marriage.

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Based on your likes you mentioned these might not be a category you like, but they're some that I've enjoyed lately.

Turn: Washington's Spies - Based on an excellent book by Alexander Rose. It's about a spy ring that opperated out of New York during the American Revolution. While it is based on actual people and events, they play loose with history in some spots in order to build drama, but it's worth it for the season ending payoffs. I thought the writing and pacing were great, and it has plenty of memorable moments. It's 4 seasons long and finished last year.

Vikings - Don't watch it for a history lesson, but the characters are great (even if they actually didn't live in the same century). And who doesn't love big Viking battles?

Fargo - Like the movie, it dips into dark humor. Each season is a separate setting and story, but they do cross reference each other. Season 1 is great, mainly because Billy Bob Thornton and Martin Freeman are fun to watch together. Season 2 was good with a twist I enjoyed but another twist that I thoight was maybe too far out there. I have had Season 3 all ready to go for a long while, but just haven't found time to watch it. I'm waiting on the right moment to binge watch it all the way through.

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Hey, I'll watch anything if it's got an enthralling story.

I have heard really good word of mouth about Fargo. I was hesitant to watch a TV show based on a movie as self-contained as that movie was, but I have been made to understand that the show is only loosely based on the film, and as you describe, ends up becoming an anthology sort of thing.

I do find the trend of turning movies into TV shows interesting. Just off the top of my head, there's Fargo, Lethal Weapon, Westworld, and 12 Monkeys just within the last few years. I know this is not a new thing for television - hell, M*A*S*H was adapted from a movie - it's just an interesting trend that has seemed to pick up steam recently.

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Well, I've given some opinions in other replies. Coming up with my own list is sort of hard because almost everything I'm watching lately is on Netflix, and some of it (Frontier, The End of the F****ing World) is even exclusive.

The only thing I've really watched on Amazon is The Grand Tour, which is, IMO, only appealing right now if you're very invested in the 3 former Top Gear hosts who are on it. It's gotten a lot better in its 2nd season, but it's still got a little way to go before it's as good as Top Gear used to be.

If you prefer old shows, I've been watching The Dick Van Dyke Show, which is a very old sitcom that's surprisingly good, although a bit campy in some places.

Red Dwarf is a show that's both old (started in 1988) and new (the latest season came out last year). It's a sci-fi comedy centered around the last man alive - while working on a mining ship, he's put into stasis as punishment for smuggling an un-quarantined cat on board. He wakes up 3 million years later to learn that the crew is dead and they've been flying away from Earth the whole time, so he is effectively alone, except for a humanoid creature which evolved from said cat, and a single hologram recreation of one of the crew (his bunkmate, whom he hates, naturally). The story doesn't matter much from there because RD takes enormous liberties with continuity - anything they need to set up a punchline is fair game. The humor comes mostly from savage insults and subverting sci-fi tropes.

Interestingly, they've managed to go this whole time without technically having any aliens involved. Everything they encounter is either manmade stuff that got left out in space (robots, genetically engineered creatures), or people from other dimensions, etc. Also, Patrick Stewart is a fan.

I recently watched a Scottish comedy called Still Game, following some older folks (pensioners, as they'd be called there) who entertain themselves as best they can in a run down old city. It's technically in English, but if you're not actually Scottish you'll probably need subtitles. And Google.

I am watching The Lizzie Borden Chronicles right now. I'm only halfway through, so I can't tell you if it's good overall. I can say that the first half features gratuitous violence and Christina Ricci being creepy.

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I agree with many of the recommendations in this thread, but there are a few that I haven't seen mentioned yet...

Future Man
A new Hulu Original about a janitor guy (Josh Hutcherson) that sucks at life but is really good at a particular videogame called Biotic Wars -- and when he finally beats the game, it turns out that it was a "test" sent from the future to find a savior of humanity - yes, totally like The Last Starfighter. Pretty much every episode (perhaps with the exception of the first) has had me laughing out loud multiple times. It also stars Eliza Coupe (who you would recognize from Scrubs, among other comedies) and Derek Wilson as the future soldiers that basically serve as Josh's handlers.

Also (but definitely not "new"):

Firefly
Yes, I am one of those people that thinks Firefly is the greatest show ever.

The IT Crowd
The funniest show in the history of ever.

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Firefly
Yes, I am one of those people that thinks Firefly is the greatest show ever.

Correct.

The IT Crowd
The funniest show in the history of ever.

Also correct.

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How far back do you want to go? I'll break this down into precursor shows, and then what I consider our "modern age":

Prologue:

The "Golden Age of Television" that we live in didn't happen overnight and was a slow burn at the beginning. Did you catch when the X-Files made the first non-soap-opera continuing narrative dramatic storyline in order to cover for the fact that Gillian Anderson was pregnant? That was the catalyst, and it happened way back in the 1990's.

Lost was a seminal point for these narrative dramas as it garnered a cult-like fanbase that watched the show religiously. It had several strong seasons, but the ending disappointed many, and the vast majority of plot points never paid off. Similarly, the behind the scenes drama of the show led to several high profile firings of the cast, resulting in dropped threads and many plot dead-ends. Still, this is an important show for understanding how we got to where we are today.

24 (season 2 is the best by a MILE) came out at the same time as the Lord of the Rings movies were making their way to DVD. The result was that fans of both took to binge watching. A 24-hour 24 marathon aired on TV, and many people had parties where they watched all 9 hours of the extended edition Lord of the Rings movies in a row. Thus, binge-watching became a Thing.

Finally, Mad Men showed that fans valued quality writing and production over all else. It stormed the awards shows and put AMC on the map, driving viewers to cable for the first time in years. It's brilliant writing and willingness to take risks that big-budget movie studios refused, combined with all of the accolades and awards, drew Hollywood's top talent away from film and into the small screen. If you wanted to write a compelling narrative with complicated characters and unusual topics, television was now the place to be. Film became nothing but a bastion of blockbuster action films and hack jobs of known quantities: sequels, prequels, and remakes galore. Safe investments only. Television was now willing to take risks, especially cable television, as they saw how audiences flocked to them. In fact, broadcast TV *sued* the FCC because they weren't legally allowed to use the same language or graphic violence of cable shows. That's how much cable took over television: Broadcast networks had to resort to legal battles because they could not compete with actual content.

End of prologue.

Welcome to the modern age of television!

Breaking Bad. It's 10 years old now, but if you haven't seen it, this is the shepherd that ushered in the current age of television, good and bad. There are some rough patches (notably the first few episodes of both seasons 2 and 3), but everything ultimately pays off in spades. From a purely academic standpoint, this show is a must-see. Almost every other show made since has been a gritty, realistic drama with dark characters, loose morals, and a penchant for the anti-heroes only sort of storytelling that Breaking Bad made famous.

Game of Thrones. Take Breaking Bad and add a lot of sex, normalization of male genitalia on screen, and writing good enough to trick the entire world into thinking that a show about talking is actually a show about dragons. The major add to the entertainment world here is George RR Martin's writing. He is not precious with any of his characters, and is willing to end their lives for the sake of plot, rather than contriving elaborate means of escape found in almost every other previous form of entertainment. Borrowing largely from the War of the Roses and other historic battles of conquest, GoT delivers political intrigue on a grand scale, backing the wills of tyrants with the force of armies, all under a backdrop of looming existential danger to the entire human race. It's fantastic on many levels, but may be jarring to viewers who are not prepared for the narrative dissonance brought about by the last twenty years of television history.

Empire. This is a trashy TV prime-time soap opera done right, and it marks Broadcast TV's first major success in the new era of hard-hitting and impactful shows. By fully embracing a minority demographic as central characters, broadcast TV discovered wide-ranging appeal and this show drew a path forward for their future success. I'm not sure it's worth watching (I'm not into soap-style shows, really), but its impact cannot be denied.

This is Us. Here is broadcast TV's new juggernaut. Eschewing the grit and violence of cable television, This is Us tells human stories with heartbreaking compassion. Finally, broadcast has found an answer to the Breaking Bads of Cable, and that answer is to tell emotional and heart-wrenching dramas where, in lieu of anti-heroes, everyone is a true hero who is struggling against the every day life and death struggles of living in our modern world. Beautiful and emotionally manipulative, this show will, I predict, be the vanguard of a new breed of high drama shows about ordinary people dealing with everyday problems.

Netflix. There are too many shows to list, but against this backdrop of cable vs. broadcast tv, Netflix emerged with viewer-driven analytics, creating and renewing shows that people wanted to watch. They are unafraid of risk, airing many pilots or one-off films in order to see what sticks, and then creating feature quality shows with top talent in order to capitalize on the viewing habits of their subscribers. Netflix marks the business model of the future, and today, Disney (via Hulu), CBS, HBO, and many others are attempting to enter the same entertainment space that Netflix rules. Expect more and stronger online programming in the future as these shows compete tooth and nail for subscribers and awards.

End of history lesson.

So here we stand in this breaking bad vs. this is us battle of cable vs. broadcast, with netflix showing that the very concept of "typical" tv service is a dinosaur. The only real lessons to be taken away from this is that your eyes are valuable and many different companies are producing top programming in order to lure your gaze. There are quality offerings on many fronts, so I can't possibly name them all, but I will point to a few of my favorites not already mentioned:

- Parks and Rec. Brilliant comedy well worth viewing. Originally on broadcast TV, now on netflix.

- Broadchurch. BBC detective drama where a failed big-city cop comes to a small town to solve a gruesome murder. Incredible storytelling, beautifully shot. Now on netflix.

- GLOW. I flippin' loved this show and I can't wait for season 2. It's masterful, with both comedy and drama delivered in spades. Netflix.

- Stranger Things. How can I not mention this genius of an '80's throwback? Wildly popular and very entertaining. On Netflix.

- The Crown. Massive budget brought to the small screen. Incredibly well produced, written, acted, and artfully delivered. Netflix strikes again.

Enjoy!!!

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Don't watch any YouTube videos I have been in since the show premiered or you're gonna have a bad time.

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Game of Thrones. Take Breaking Bad and add a lot of sex, normalization of male genitalia on screen,

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He is not precious with any of his characters, and is willing to end their lives for the sake of plot, rather than contriving elaborate means of escape found in almost every other previous form of entertainment.

*Except for his 5 initially-identified (in his book pitch) "must survive to the end, at least" characters who should be pretty obvious to anyone paying attention.

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Check out Person of Interest. I feel it hits all the notes you're looking for if you're in the mood for a compelling narrative with plenty of action in a science fiction universe set in current day.

You also get the added bonus of it starring Michael Emerson as Harold Finch. Great actor!

- MacGyver10

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Feel free to keep them coming if you've got more, but I'm already overwhelmed again!

I've decided on checking out Mr. Robot this weekend, and then after that I am interested to try one of the "serious business" character dramas a la Breaking Bad.

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Feel free to keep them coming if you've got more, but I'm already overwhelmed again!

I've decided on checking out Mr. Robot this weekend, and then after that I am interested to try one of the "serious business" character dramas a la Breaking Bad.

I meant to jump in earlier, but didn't.

Now that you're overwhelmed, let me add some specific suggestions, instead of general ones.

Since you have Amazon Prime video, I'm sticking to that.

Here are some shows that I've found to be good, and that are shorter than, say, Breaking Bad (5-6 seasons, depending on how you count) - these are all 1-3 seasons, so it's less of an investment.

Goliath (Billy Bob Thornton is a burnt-out lawyer) - one season, with a second on its way.
Sneaky Pete - just started this, pretty great. One season, with a second on its way
The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel - this is fantastic. One season, with a second on its way
Catastrophe - British sitcom, 3 seasons, fourth on its way, but they're half-hour eps, so easy to burn through. Hilarious.
Good Girls Revolt - a period piece looking at the news magazine industry in the 60s (think Mad Men-like) - one season, weakest of this list, still good

Amazon has some great stuff. :)

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Feel free to keep them coming if you've got more, but I'm already overwhelmed again!

I've decided on checking out Mr. Robot this weekend, and then after that I am interested to try one of the "serious business" character dramas a la Breaking Bad.

I meant to jump in earlier, but didn't.

Now that you're overwhelmed, let me add some specific suggestions, instead of general ones.

Since you have Amazon Prime video, I'm sticking to that.

Here are some shows that I've found to be good, and that are shorter than, say, Breaking Bad (5-6 seasons, depending on how you count) - these are all 1-3 seasons, so it's less of an investment.

Goliath (Billy Bob Thornton is a burnt-out lawyer) - one season, with a second on its way.
Sneaky Pete - just started this, pretty great. One season, with a second on its way
The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel - this is fantastic. One season, with a second on its way
Catastrophe - British sitcom, 3 seasons, fourth on its way, but they're half-hour eps, so easy to burn through. Hilarious.
Good Girls Revolt - a period piece looking at the news magazine industry in the 60s (think Mad Men-like) - one season, weakest of this list, still good

Amazon has some great stuff. :)

I think their original content is better over all.

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I can't get into modern television. (Off-Topic)

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