Noclip Documentary -- Warframe

You all know how much I like Danny O'Dwyer's work by now. His latest project is a two-part series on Warframe, which well be out next week.

We just had a big thread about premium vs free to play games, so I think this should be an interesting watch. Warframe seems to be one of the few games doing free to play "right."

Here's the trailer. I'll post the actual videos in this thread as they release next week.

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You all know how much I like Danny O'Dwyer's work by now. His latest project is a two-part series on Warframe, which well be out next week.

They had him on one of the weekly community streams while he was there filming for the documentary a month ago, and it was fun to see them put him front and center to see what a typical weekly stream is like between DE and the community, and how direct the relationship is (and how forgiving chat can be when your fashion sense is crap :P ).

I've definitely been looking forward to this, though I know that there will likely be little focus on how the early lore really set the groundwork for the revelations that would have some people shouting "Masterstroke". Though I'm sure there'll be a section devoted to how something as simple as a single quest (like The Second Dream) can have a huge impact on the way people can see not just the entire game, but the studio itself, and what lessons DE took from that moving forward.

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What's the context for this second dream quest? Why was it so affecting? I'm curious because you can explain the context, and I remember you mentioning it before and posting people's reactions to it which were really intense.

Post as many spoilers as you want since I'm not playing this bad game.

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What's the context for this second dream quest? Why was it so affecting? I'm curious because you can explain the context, and I remember you mentioning it before and posting people's reactions to it which were really intense.

I mean, the context for why it's been so affecting for (new-ish) players is pretty well spelled-out in SkillUp's video for it. Beyond that, it's more of a "you had to be there" thing. As I've often posted, the game, its lore, and a player's understanding and place in it has been constantly growing and evolving since the game first released, so for someone who has been playing the game for three or four years, to have a revelation thrown in your face that not only "changes everything", but that makes complete sense within the context of all of the lore (and the HBO-in-its-prime levels of fan speculation, forum posts, and story analysis). It's impactful, and the team really took it to heart moving forward, making sure that quests are not only important to the lore, but that they answer key questions, while bringing up new ones for fans to speculate on until they decide to answer them (despite the major revelations of The Second Dream, for example, there are a number of important questions brought up that have never been answered, though a major one looks to be part of one of this year's quests).

As for what the quests revelations are, how they change everything moving forward, and how they relate to the past, present, and future lore and gameplay, it's something that you have to be there for.
I've told you some of it, but beyond that, I'd rather not say. The farther I can keep you from Warframe, Cody, the better. You have some pretty retarded opinions sometimes, and I think we get enough ignorance and negativity on your end without you having a swath of things that you can do your best to nitpick on.

All you need to know is that Warframe has Microtransactions, so you shouldn't ever play it. ;)

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So what is different about how they approach and execute the story? What can Bungie learn from them?

I’m not going to nitpick because I don’t doubt the way they handle the story is probably good. It’s just literally everything else about that game that is disgusting.

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So what is different about how they approach and execute the story? What can Bungie learn from them?

I’m not going to nitpick because I don’t doubt the way they handle the story is probably good. It’s just literally everything else about that game that is disgusting.

They have a "no empty calories" approach to story. They implement in-game lore (often building and referencing events that you can read about in the in-game grimoire), they flesh out existing characters, and have them interact with one another, many of the characters (such as faction leaders, allies, even Warframe's version of Xur) have had their own questlines that not only give them depth, but that explain their relationships to specific Warframes, and other characters in the game. When they introduce new characters, they aren't one-and-done. A lot of these characters have a permanent presence in the game, and occasionally have unique missions and uses for resources.

And each story questline has the give answers/raise questions approach, where you are given definite answers to some things, unreliable answers to other things, and questions are raised about something else.

For example, one of the many revelations in the Second Dream (not the "big" one) has to do with the Warframes themselves.

During the quest, you are loosely allied with a major enemy (who captures, dissects, and repurposes Warframes). He comments that despite being someone who has deep knowledge about Warframe anatomy, he doesn't quite know what we are, that what he's found "doesn't make sense". The major villain that we are fighting against, the Sentient Hunhow, calls us "Infested puppets" (the Infested are an enemy technovirus-based faction akin to the Flood or Hive) It's revealed that the Warframes are basically golems, non-sentient cyborgs, even though one of the grimoire posts tells a story about an "untamed" Warframe that was not only sentient, it was eating the scientists that it took down.
Anyway, near the end of the quest, your Warframe's control fails, and it goes lifeless. One of the game's major enemies, the rogue Warframe Stalker (this is a star-studded quest) takes this opportunity to drive the sword containing Hunhow through the Warframe, getting no reply, because obviously the Warframes are just lifeless shells, right?
A few moments later, while the Stalker is distracted and all hope seems lost, the Warframe starts moving on its own, it snaps the sword in half (defeating a confused and panicking Hunhow), and rips it out of its body before once more going limp.

In this quest, the question of "what is a Warframe" gets answered, but a few more questions are raised: What is the Warframe's relationship to the Infested faction? Are they sentient or not? Who made the Warframes? Why are they being controlled by the Operators? What are the Operators? Why does the Stalker hate them? Is the Stalker also a golem (he wonders this during the quest)? How much of this did Ordis (our ship's AI) know?

Some of those questions have since been answered by other quests, and some remain. And like I said, that's just one of the revelations.

Bungie can learn to employ this approach to the storytelling, where instead of a "bring us Tokens" interaction with Future War Cult, we actually do a quest that helps us understand them, and specifically Lakshmi-2 better. A quest that has a real, tangible impact on the world and story, and that provides us with a unique set of goals to the other factions. What if Lakshmi sends us to the House of Devils-owned London to get something vital from her old office? Then this macGuffin can lead into Gods of Mars, while the rest of the quest relays her relationship to Ana Bray, or sheds light on why she has a high amount of respect for Warlocks (maybe they helped her survive the burning of London). The quest might even give us some insight into Fallen culture and history. And the quest can end with unique armor pieces for Warlocks, or a unique exotic for the other two classes, all rounded out with a new London-based Crucible map (taking place where we finished the quest, with every round having a chance to drop a piece of the exclusive Warlock armor set), and the macGuffin appearing in the tower for us forever (maybe it was a Frame where she stored her data?).

Something tangible like that, and something similar for the other two Factions...

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Thanks for this post.

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Wish I liked their artwork. Sounds awesome.

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Was that there basically was none until you put a solid 30 hours into the game. I've put in 48 hours into that game and explored more than half the planets and I played maybe 4-5 of the missions when they unlocked. And yet I still don't know much of the story line. That is what bugs me the most about the story line. It might have in depth and great morsels. but if I have to spend 100-150 hours of playing/grinding the game just to get to that point... ehh that's just not worth my time.

I understand that the game has been going for a while and it's a continual process and that's cool. I get that. I personally don't think a game can say it has an awesome story from a game perspective if that is what it takes to actually experience the story line.

Probably just me, but I don't know.

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Was that there basically was none until you put a solid 30 hours into the game. I've put in 48 hours into that game and explored more than half the planets and I played maybe 4-5 of the missions when they unlocked. And yet I still don't know much of the story line. That is what bugs me the most about the story line. It might have in depth and great morsels. but if I have to spend 100-150 hours of playing/grinding the game just to get to that point... ehh that's just not worth my time.

I understand that the game has been going for a while and it's a continual process and that's cool. I get that. I personally don't think a game can say it has an awesome story from a game perspective if that is what it takes to actually experience the story line.

Probably just me, but I don't know.

You're not wrong... But at the same time, a lot of it might have to do with how the game never explains the progression system for the story. Some quests you can simply activate from the Codex, some require you to speak to specific characters that you wouldn't think to visit on your own, some require progression on the star chart to unlock, and some you have to buy Blueprints to begin. And then some of these quests require completion before you can get closer to the actual main plot quests.

For those playing as they get released, it makes sense, but for anyone coming into the game, they blur into the background noise of the ten thousand other things that you're having to learn on your own.

I have two friends who had all of the main story quests completed before they were Mastery Rank 8 (about 15-20 hours). I think they used a guide to explain exactly what they needed to do to unlock them, but it shows just how much of the game can bombard even experienced players.

That steeeeeep onboarding curve has always been one of the game's single biggest faults, and one that DE can't seem to fix, possibly due to the sheer amount of systems and content in the game.

Maybe they'll overhaul the Codex at some point, as that's the one aspect of the game that's never really been touched.

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It might have in depth and great morsels. but if I have to spend 100-150 hours of playing/grinding the game just to get to that point... ehh that's just not worth my time.

Game Director Steve Sinclair is actually aware of this exact issue affecting new players, and in Noclip's documentary, he addresses that concern directly. Noclip highlights the clip regarding this:

"People are smart. The look at it, they see that complexity, they know, they smell, that that means 'this game is going to take a lot of mental energy, and you're gonna have to read wikipedia if you want to min/max it'. And they know 'I'm either in for that, or I'm out for that". Does this Netflix series have twenty-four episodes, or ten, right?
It's a big commitment to play Warframe. One of the big parts of my job [is] "how much time are we going to burn on a new player, and how much time are we going to give to that thousand-hour player?"

I feel like that's why despite some major overhauls, the new player experience remains daunting. It is, in itself, a gatekeeper for players, to give them an understanding of the depth and quantity of the game's systems. It's definitely not for everyone.

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But it doesn’t have to be for everyone. It’s refreshing to just have someone say that the game might not be for you instead of compromising.

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But it doesn’t have to be for everyone. It’s refreshing to just have someone say that the game might not be for you instead of compromising.

Right, which is why I got a laugh when the game's Art Director, Geoff Crookes, seems to be talking directly to you and others, Cody, when he addresses the game's polarising art direction. It was borne out of a refusal to compromise the vision/passion of the artists working on the game, with direct inspiration from the works of Jean Giraud (better known as Moebius):

26:53 in the video, if it doesn't load directly.

Much like the complexity of the game, they know that the art style is not for everyone, and they're okay with that, because they don't want to compromise their art for the sake of drawing in more players.

That said, because they allow fans to create cosmetic content for the game, the amount of customization is pretty wild, which leads into the way fans see personal customization as the true endgame.

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Haven’t watched it yet, but it’s up.

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If this documentary makes you curious about the game, right now is the perfect time to give it a try.

DE is celebrating the game's fifth anniversary, and is giving away some pretty great stuff, including a free skin, cosmetic item, and three unique weapons (complete with their own free weapon slots and pre-installed capacity upgrades) that you can earn by playing simple missions. You can get everything until the event ends on March 28 at 2pm ET.

And this is all apart from the free stuff that you can get if you play on PS4.

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I actually do want to give it a real shot. Just have to find the time. I’m getting ready to start Mass Effect 3. God of War is in a month, so I’ll have a few weeks to dive in, depending on how quickly I get through ME3.

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I’m getting ready to start Mass Effect 3. God of War is in a month, so I’ll have a few weeks to dive in, depending on how quickly I get through ME3.

Is this a replay, or have you never played ME3 before?

Just throwing it out there if it is your first time, ME3 has a multiplayer mode which is truly one of the best co-op games ever made IMO. I'd probably still be playing it actively if I had a consistent group (at one time, there was a group that was on almost every night). If you want to give that a try, I'm always up for it and I'd probably make an OK sherpa.

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It’s just a replay. I’m just about finished with ME2, and am going to do ME3 as well. I played ME2 multiple times, but only ever played ME3 once, at launch.

I did enjoy the multiplayer but never really got too deep into it.

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I’m getting ready to start Mass Effect 3. God of War is in a month, so I’ll have a few weeks to dive in, depending on how quickly I get through ME3.

Is this a replay, or have you never played ME3 before?

Just throwing it out there if it is your first time, ME3 has a multiplayer mode which is truly one of the best co-op games ever made IMO. I'd probably still be playing it actively if I had a consistent group (at one time, there was a group that was on almost every night). If you want to give that a try, I'm always up for it and I'd probably make an OK sherpa.

I didn't want to start a new thread, so and this seemed like a decent enough jumping off point.

I'm about 11 hours into Mass Effect 3. I played it once when it first launched, and I remember being disappointed by it. I didn't hate the ending like most seemed to (although I don't particularly like it either)--I don't recall many specifics as to why, I just remember feeling let down by the game.

Now I'm really not sure why, because I am enjoying the hell out of this game. It actually does a really great job of making the galaxy feel like it's in a state of war. Every time you finish a mission and load up the galaxy map, it seems like three or four more things that you need to deal with open up. It really does convey being overwhelmed with shit to deal with. If I remember correctly, that doens't really pay off in that you don't actually have to make any difficult decisions and can still take all the time you want and do everything.

Also, the way they use the old crew members is great. Reuniting with Liara and having her join your crew (and Garrus, obviously) is great. All the stuff that happens with Kaiden and him not trusting you due to your dealings with Cerberus is well done, I think. And the way they use ME2 crew members like Mordin and Thane where they are not a part of your crew but are working with you to accomplish goals until they sacrifice themselves for the cause is really affecting and well executed.

As a side note, does anyone know which DLC is worth getting? I'm going to buy Citdal, because I never did go back and do that. But I think there's a few others, Leviathan and some other one, but I'm not sure if they're really worth spending the extra $25 for.

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As a side note, does anyone know which DLC is worth getting? I'm going to buy Citdal, because I never did go back and do that. But I think there's a few others, Leviathan and some other one, but I'm not sure if they're really worth spending the extra $25 for.

There's Citadel, Leviathan, and Omega. Of that last 2, I'd say Leviathan for sure because that has a really interesting thing to explain. Omega has some interesting stuff too, don't get me wrong, but not as interesting as Leviathan.

Also to build on Stabbim's offer, I too would totally be down to play some ME3 Multiplayer again. It is seriously fun and harrowing especially when you get a group together. It's been soo long since we've done it too.

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Also, the way they use the old crew members is great. Reuniting with Liara and having her join your crew (and Garrus, obviously) is great. All the stuff that happens with Kaiden and him not trusting you due to your dealings with Cerberus is well done, I think. And the way they use ME2 crew members like Mordin and Thane where they are not a part of your crew but are working with you to accomplish goals until they sacrifice themselves for the cause is really affecting and well executed.

Why? Why did you have to mention those two? Now I'm going to have to take tomorrow off work to grieve.

As a side note, does anyone know which DLC is worth getting? I'm going to buy Citdal, because I never did go back and do that. But I think there's a few others, Leviathan and some other one, but I'm not sure if they're really worth spending the extra $25 for.

I certainly remember enjoying all the DLCs, for different reasons.

Citadel by itself I don't think was an amazing story. I seem to remember it feeling more like one of those investigation-type side quests. But there's a LOT of opportunities to get to know Shepard's friends and crew better, if you like that kind of thing.

Omega is super cool if you like Aria. And who doesn't, really?

Leviathan was definitely the standout for me. There are things in that story that made me feel very small and in awe in a way I hadn't felt since that first conversation with Sovereign. Do you remember this extremely intriguing snippet from a planet description way back in ME1?

"Jartar is noted for the discovery of the 'Leviathan of Dis,' the apparent corpse of a genetically engineered living starship. The Leviathan was found in the bottom of a crater by a batarian survey team, and estimated to be nearly a billion years old. It 'disappeared' after a visit to the system by a batarian dreadnought twenty years ago.

Since then, the batarians have steadfastly denied that the Leviathan existed at all – and all the more vociferously when shown recordings of the corpse made by salarian researchers. "

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Leviathan was definitely the standout for me. There are things in that story that made me feel very small and in awe in a way I hadn't felt since that first conversation with Sovereign. Do you remember this extremely intriguing snippet from a planet description way back in ME1?

"Jartar is noted for the discovery of the 'Leviathan of Dis,' the apparent corpse of a genetically engineered living starship. The Leviathan was found in the bottom of a crater by a batarian survey team, and estimated to be nearly a billion years old. It 'disappeared' after a visit to the system by a batarian dreadnought twenty years ago.

Since then, the batarians have steadfastly denied that the Leviathan existed at all – and all the more vociferously when shown recordings of the corpse made by salarian researchers. "

I never played the Mass Effect 1 DLC with Balak in it, so I didn't learn this until much later, but if Balak survived the events of ME1, he shows up in ME3, and he tells Shepard about the Leviathan of Dis, and how it actually indoctrinated the Batarian scientists and leading military/government, which explains how the Batarians stood zero chance against the Reaper invasion (and probably why they were the first quadrant targeted). It's pretty cool. Darn shame that you don't get that info at all unless you keep him alive though.

Still, it was pretty scary not knowing, since throughout ME3, you just hear that the Batarians have been pretty much completely wiped out before the events of the game, so you get the boogeyman vibe from the Reapers.

I assume the Leviathan DLC touches up on this...

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Okay, so I guess I'm going to go ahead and spend $45 on this game now . . .

They all sound great.

I'd be down to do a bit of multiplayer. I doubt I'll really get super into it, but I'd spend a night or two on it for sure.

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Sweet. I'm offline Saturday and probably most of Sunday, but back in action Monday.

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Monday should work for me too.

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I’ll have to look at it a bit closer. That game had an online pass, and I’m definitely not going to spend money on that if EA Access doesn’t just give it to you.

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I played a few matches with the DBO folks through the EA Access thing back when it became back-compat

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I played a few matches with the DBO folks through the EA Access thing back when it became back-compat

I just played a few matches. Holy cow, this is fun. Maybe I will get into this for a bit, if others really want to play. I got immediately with no problem at all, so I guess this game is still pretty active.

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I'm totally up for it Monday. I'm off work all day and no commitments in the evening so I can do any time. Post a time!

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Don't know if I'll be able to play tonight, but this discussion did inspire me to dust off femshep. She's working through ME2 DLC at the moment. (That was my ritual, finish the DLC of the previous game right before jumping into the next installment.) The graphics and animations are a bit dated, but you can forgive a lot when the writing and voice acting are decent. I've enjoyed jumping back into this universe.

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Don't know if I'll be able to play tonight, but this discussion did inspire me to dust off femshep. She's working through ME2 DLC at the moment. (That was my ritual, finish the DLC of the previous game right before jumping into the next installment.) The graphics and animations are a bit dated, but you can forgive a lot when the writing and voice acting are decent. I've enjoyed jumping back into this universe.

I actually found myself pretty impressed by how good it still looked, in the grand scheme of things. There are definitely some rough edges, but I think it has held up remarkably well.

And yes, it really is a very good, well written game. It’s a fantastic universe, and I honestly hope EA doesn’t let it sit on the shelf for too long.

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Don't know if I'll be able to play tonight, but this discussion did inspire me to dust off femshep. She's working through ME2 DLC at the moment. (That was my ritual, finish the DLC of the previous game right before jumping into the next installment.) The graphics and animations are a bit dated, but you can forgive a lot when the writing and voice acting are decent. I've enjoyed jumping back into this universe.

I actually found myself pretty impressed by how good it still looked, in the grand scheme of things. There are definitely some rough edges, but I think it has held up remarkably well.

And yes, it really is a very good, well written game. It’s a fantastic universe, and I honestly hope EA doesn’t let it sit on the shelf for too long.

I think Bioware today just isn’t what they used to be. Even as far back as ME3 (which I loved), there were signs that the studio was drifting away from the elements that made KotOR, ME1, and ME2 so spectacular and unique. There are studios today that do spectacular work, but those 3 games were so thoroughly infused withBioware’s specific style and intelligence, it’s hard for me to imagine another team coming up with a new game that feels true to the originals. Not that the Remy aren’t other ways to go. But I can’t help feeling that Mass Effect has gone the way of Halo; somebody might continue to make new ME games, and they might even be great, but they probably won’t scratch the same itch as the originals.

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Don't know if I'll be able to play tonight, but this discussion did inspire me to dust off femshep. She's working through ME2 DLC at the moment. (That was my ritual, finish the DLC of the previous game right before jumping into the next installment.) The graphics and animations are a bit dated, but you can forgive a lot when the writing and voice acting are decent. I've enjoyed jumping back into this universe.

I actually found myself pretty impressed by how good it still looked, in the grand scheme of things. There are definitely some rough edges, but I think it has held up remarkably well.

And yes, it really is a very good, well written game. It’s a fantastic universe, and I honestly hope EA doesn’t let it sit on the shelf for too long.

I thought you were playing ME3, not ME2, not that there's a drastic drop-off in quality IMHO. ME2 blew me away. A highlight of my gaming history was having Thane survive the final mission after I was plagued by guilt for failing his loyalty mission.

(I rediscovered yesterday that my femshep may have compensated for my broshep's lapses by taking Thane as a lover. Don't judge!)

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Don't know if I'll be able to play tonight, but this discussion did inspire me to dust off femshep. She's working through ME2 DLC at the moment. (That was my ritual, finish the DLC of the previous game right before jumping into the next installment.) The graphics and animations are a bit dated, but you can forgive a lot when the writing and voice acting are decent. I've enjoyed jumping back into this universe.

I actually found myself pretty impressed by how good it still looked, in the grand scheme of things. There are definitely some rough edges, but I think it has held up remarkably well.

And yes, it really is a very good, well written game. It’s a fantastic universe, and I honestly hope EA doesn’t let it sit on the shelf for too long.

I thought you were playing ME3, not ME2, not that there's a drastic drop-off in quality IMHO. ME2 blew me away. A highlight of my gaming history was having Thane survive the final mission after I was plagued by guilt for failing his loyalty mission.

(I rediscovered yesterday that my femshep may have compensated for my broshep's lapses by taking Thane as a lover. Don't judge!)

I cannot relate to a human being who plays ME2 and chooses anyone other than Miranda (;p)

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I cannot relate to a human being who plays ME2 and chooses anyone other than Miranda (;p)

The only acceptable excuse is holding out for Liara.

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Don't know if I'll be able to play tonight, but this discussion did inspire me to dust off femshep. She's working through ME2 DLC at the moment. (That was my ritual, finish the DLC of the previous game right before jumping into the next installment.) The graphics and animations are a bit dated, but you can forgive a lot when the writing and voice acting are decent. I've enjoyed jumping back into this universe.

I actually found myself pretty impressed by how good it still looked, in the grand scheme of things. There are definitely some rough edges, but I think it has held up remarkably well.

And yes, it really is a very good, well written game. It’s a fantastic universe, and I honestly hope EA doesn’t let it sit on the shelf for too long.

I thought you were playing ME3, not ME2, not that there's a drastic drop-off in quality IMHO. ME2 blew me away. A highlight of my gaming history was having Thane survive the final mission after I was plagued by guilt for failing his loyalty mission.

(I rediscovered yesterday that my femshep may have compensated for my broshep's lapses by taking Thane as a lover. Don't judge!)

I cannot relate to a human being who plays ME2 and chooses anyone other than Miranda (;p)

Having an organic RealDoll is nice if you’re a creep, but anyone with class knows that Tali is bae 5ever.

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Don't know if I'll be able to play tonight, but this discussion did inspire me to dust off femshep. She's working through ME2 DLC at the moment. (That was my ritual, finish the DLC of the previous game right before jumping into the next installment.) The graphics and animations are a bit dated, but you can forgive a lot when the writing and voice acting are decent. I've enjoyed jumping back into this universe.

I actually found myself pretty impressed by how good it still looked, in the grand scheme of things. There are definitely some rough edges, but I think it has held up remarkably well.

And yes, it really is a very good, well written game. It’s a fantastic universe, and I honestly hope EA doesn’t let it sit on the shelf for too long.

I thought you were playing ME3, not ME2, not that there's a drastic drop-off in quality IMHO. ME2 blew me away. A highlight of my gaming history was having Thane survive the final mission after I was plagued by guilt for failing his loyalty mission.

(I rediscovered yesterday that my femshep may have compensated for my broshep's lapses by taking Thane as a lover. Don't judge!)

I cannot relate to a human being who plays ME2 and chooses anyone other than Miranda (;p)

Having an organic RealDoll is nice if you’re a creep, but anyone with class knows that Tali is bae 5ever.

"auxiliary... induction... port"
^ Best line in the series. lol

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Don't know if I'll be able to play tonight, but this discussion did inspire me to dust off femshep. She's working through ME2 DLC at the moment. (That was my ritual, finish the DLC of the previous game right before jumping into the next installment.) The graphics and animations are a bit dated, but you can forgive a lot when the writing and voice acting are decent. I've enjoyed jumping back into this universe.

I actually found myself pretty impressed by how good it still looked, in the grand scheme of things. There are definitely some rough edges, but I think it has held up remarkably well.

And yes, it really is a very good, well written game. It’s a fantastic universe, and I honestly hope EA doesn’t let it sit on the shelf for too long.

I thought you were playing ME3, not ME2, not that there's a drastic drop-off in quality IMHO. ME2 blew me away. A highlight of my gaming history was having Thane survive the final mission after I was plagued by guilt for failing his loyalty mission.

(I rediscovered yesterday that my femshep may have compensated for my broshep's lapses by taking Thane as a lover. Don't judge!)

I cannot relate to a human being who plays ME2 and chooses anyone other than Miranda (;p)

You damned dirty specist!

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Don't know if I'll be able to play tonight, but this discussion did inspire me to dust off femshep. She's working through ME2 DLC at the moment. (That was my ritual, finish the DLC of the previous game right before jumping into the next installment.) The graphics and animations are a bit dated, but you can forgive a lot when the writing and voice acting are decent. I've enjoyed jumping back into this universe.

I actually found myself pretty impressed by how good it still looked, in the grand scheme of things. There are definitely some rough edges, but I think it has held up remarkably well.

And yes, it really is a very good, well written game. It’s a fantastic universe, and I honestly hope EA doesn’t let it sit on the shelf for too long.

I thought you were playing ME3, not ME2, not that there's a drastic drop-off in quality IMHO. ME2 blew me away. A highlight of my gaming history was having Thane survive the final mission after I was plagued by guilt for failing his loyalty mission.

(I rediscovered yesterday that my femshep may have compensated for my broshep's lapses by taking Thane as a lover. Don't judge!)

I cannot relate to a human being who plays ME2 and chooses anyone other than Miranda (;p)

You damned dirty specist!

Species has nothing to do with it! My preference is purely... merit based...

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I only started ME3 right after finishing ME2.

I feel real bad because Tali just threw herself off a cliff after the Geth destroyed her people.

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The first time I played the game, I was able to make peace between the Geth and Quarians. It was sort of anti-climactic, it just sort of happened without me really having to do anything.

It wasn't until this time that I looked up what needs to happen, and it's mainly based in Mass Effect 2. In my imported save, I reprogrammed the Heretic Geth, and Tali was exiled. With those two things, it's impossible to make peace between them.

I couldn't side with the Quarians, though. The refused to back off at all in Mass Effect 3, no matter what you say or do. Legion and the Geth literally say they won't counterattack if the Quarians back off, but they just had to keep pushing, so honestly, fuck 'em.

Sorry, Tali. ):

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Sorry, I’m probably out. I might be around a bit later, but I’m not sure. My grandma made a surprise visit to my parents’ place, so I’m going to head over there and visit for a bit.

If we don’t get a few more to make the raid happen tomorrow night, I’ll be up for doing that instead, or just any evening this week.

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Heh, I didn't read this until after we'd already played last night.

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Monday should work for me too.

Thanks for playing tonight, stabbim and Zero. Sorry we only got a single match Zero.

I am definitely up for playing some more. The game is a lot of fun, and I regret not getting into it when it was new. Hopefully we can get a full crew of four together sometime for a few hours.

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Monday should work for me too.

Thanks for playing tonight, stabbim and Zero. Sorry we only got a single match Zero.

I am definitely up for playing some more. The game is a lot of fun, and I regret not getting into it when it was new. Hopefully we can get a full crew of four together sometime for a few hours.

As soon as I have a few spare bucks, I’m gonna buy ME3 again so I can play it with you guys. You’re on a Xbox, right?

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Yup, we were playing the 360 version on XBone.

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What system are you playing on? I only have it on PC now (don't have my 360 anymore), but would be down to play with anyone who wants.

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I’m playing on Xbox One.

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I was kind perplexed by the popular (or at least vocal) dislike of ME3's ending. I liked it, and I liked the game. This week I finished up the DLC for ME2 and just ran the first two missions of ME3 with my femshep (during her time off she's gotten a little sun and a new hairstyle). I'm loving it. (Maybe my base expectations have been lowered?) I'm really looking forward to this playthrough.

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Heh.

Sounds like you're exactly where I was a week and a half ago. I never really minded the ME3 ending. I didn't love it, but I didn't hate it. The extended endings help make them better, I think, even if it is just a bit of narration over some still pictures.

During my playthrough of ME3 last week, I found myself liking it much more than I did initially. As I said earlier, I can't really recall any specifics, but I wasn't enthralled with the game at launch. I remember it feeling rushed and a bit constricting.

Maybe I've changed in the years since then, but I loved ME3 this time. Enough that it might top ME2 as my favorite Mass Effect. It's close. The game does a great job of making the Reapers feel like a legitimate threat, like the entire galaxy is at war. And I think the appearances of all the old ME2 crew members work really well.

And it still looks great, and feels amazing to play.

Did you ever play Andromeda, Kermit? If you can go in with proper expectations, I do think it's a game worth playing.

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Heh.

Sounds like you're exactly where I was a week and a half ago. I never really minded the ME3 ending. I didn't love it, but I didn't hate it. The extended endings help make them better, I think, even if it is just a bit of narration over some still pictures.

During my playthrough of ME3 last week, I found myself liking it much more than I did initially. As I said earlier, I can't really recall any specifics, but I wasn't enthralled with the game at launch. I remember it feeling rushed and a bit constricting.

Maybe I've changed in the years since then, but I loved ME3 this time. Enough that it might top ME2 as my favorite Mass Effect. It's close. The game does a great job of making the Reapers feel like a legitimate threat, like the entire galaxy is at war. And I think the appearances of all the old ME2 crew members work really well.

And it still looks great, and feels amazing to play.

Did you ever play Andromeda, Kermit? If you can go in with proper expectations, I do think it's a game worth playing.

No, but I bought it.

I completely forgot about the Jessica Chobot's guest star appearance as a embedded reporter in a skintight outfit. This time I found it creepy and weird whereas I don't remember thinking anything of it back then. I guess we've become more sensitized on few issues, like the media's relationships with developers. It's also interesting in that the game is dealing with the media's relationship with the military.

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It's weird to me to watch the bits about what became the released Dark Sector. I actually played that game back then, and I loved it at the time. It's been a LONG time so I can't give a detailed rundown, I just remember thinking it was unique at the time. It's weird to look back now and think that what I was playing was really just a majorly compromised version of what DE originally wanted to make.

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The Hail Mary to keep the studio from going bankrupt. This is a fantastic video that highlights just how much DE does right that Bungie doesn't, and more than the first part, I think this is essential viewing for any developer.

There's a particularly great segment that Bungie could definitely learn from at 14:12 in the video (and it's something that I remember reacting to when they introduced and explained the change. It was one of the first things that sparked my love for DE before I even really got into the game).

tl;dr, there was a physics exploit in the game. It broke a lot of the game's movement foundation, and tons of people were using it. Because they knew what triggered it, removing it was an easy fix. Only DE didn't fix it. They looked at why the community was latching on to the exploit, and they completely overhauled the game's movement system from the ground up to turn that exploit into a feature, and not only was the game better for it, but the sheer amount of goodwill that came of it proved to DE that the playerbase has a reason for why they do things, and they like it when the developer listens and iterates on the feedback in the best way possible.

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Bungie saw that people loved using the titan jump for mobility (which required some skill to use) and in Destiny 2 they... removed it. I mean, I understand why - it was a bug that made the Titan class more mobile than other classes (in theory at least) so they felt a need to fix it to keep the game more fair/competitive. I wish they hadn't though, it was a fun mechanic. I feel like every time Bungie catches the player-base taking advantage of a bug they just nerf the crap out of whatever it is; they should instead be asking themselves why players feel the need to do that. It feels like they are more interested in player engagement than player fun. I think it's fine to nerf as a short-term fix if it's something hurting other players experiences, but if they do there needs to be a plan in place to bring the good parts of it back.

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That is actually one of the factors that has me relatively excited about 1.1.4 and the total reversion of shoulder charge and the changes to certain mobility abilities. While I don’t think we’ll necessarily see skating back, the pivot and admission that they had made a mistake by not paying attention to he way the player base was using the abilities is highly positive. (Haven’t watched Pt.2 here yet, just had that thought.)

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Only some people think some players having that amount of extra mobility was “fun.” All games have a balance. Some things are overpowered or game breaking. For example, I think Titan Skating when combined with Twilight Garrison was game breaking and I don’t think it was a “they should think why people liked it” kind of problem. To me, that kind of movement would be at home in something like Titanfall 2, but not Destiny. And there’s a reason why I play Destiny and not Titanfall 2.

In contrast, Bungie nerfing (and soon unnerfing) the shoulder charge type lunges for Titans in Destiny 2 does fit your description. It felt bad that it was removed and fortunately Bungie heard that and is putting it back.

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It helps that Warframe's PvP is a joke, so no one really cares about balancing. Also, every 'frame could do the glitch, so there was that

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More than issues with the game, the way Digital Extremes talks to its community is something I wish Bungie would take note of.

Bungie built this fancy twitch studio and they use it twice a year to try and sell the new expansion. Why?

Remember last time? A scandal came up (was it the XP thing?), and they canceled the stream to address the issue in a write up. Why not address the issue in the stream? Because it's harder to ensure a stream is the carefully crafted bullshit you can get perfect in text? Give me something real--use that fancy new studio to actually talk to us, rather than using it for bad marketing.

This doc was great. I'm going to try Warframe now, for sure. Whether I end up liking it or not, I have an immense amount of respect for Digital Extremes, their attitudes, what they've accomplished.

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More than issues with the game, the way Digital Extremes talks to its community is something I wish Bungie would take note of.

Bungie built this fancy twitch studio and they use it twice a year to try and sell the new expansion. Why?

Remember last time? A scandal came up (was it the XP thing?), and they canceled the stream to address the issue in a write up. Why not address the issue in the stream? Because it's harder to ensure a stream is the carefully crafted bullshit you can get perfect in text? Give me something real--use that fancy new studio to actually talk to us, rather than using it for bad marketing.

It's pretty clear Bungie doesn't want to talk. They can't make changes fast enough for a meaningful dialogue to even take place. The way they are making the game just isn't really compatible with what people want in terms of communications.

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More than issues with the game, the way Digital Extremes talks to its community is something I wish Bungie would take note of.

Bungie built this fancy twitch studio and they use it twice a year to try and sell the new expansion. Why?

Remember last time? A scandal came up (was it the XP thing?), and they canceled the stream to address the issue in a write up. Why not address the issue in the stream? Because it's harder to ensure a stream is the carefully crafted bullshit you can get perfect in text? Give me something real--use that fancy new studio to actually talk to us, rather than using it for bad marketing.

It's pretty clear Bungie doesn't want to talk. They can't make changes fast enough for a meaningful dialogue to even take place. The way they are making the game just isn't really compatible with what people want in terms of communications.

I can totally accept that. But if that's the case, they should quit pretending that giving me a marketing pitch is engagement and communication.

Sorry, I don't want to turn this thread negative. I genuinely appreciate where Destiny is at right now. I'm perfectly happy playing for a few weeks every three or four months for expansions. I'm not looking for an accelerated content schedule or anything like that, I just want to feel like Bungie is being straight with me. While that's getting better so far this year, we're still not there yet, and Digital Extremes clearly takes that to a whole other level.

Mostly I'm still just confused by their streaming studio. They hyped it up like they were going to be doing cool streams, but so far they basically don't use it, and when they do it's pretty bad and lame and I feel like they're talking at me rather than to me. I feel like they're trying to sell me a Slap Chop.

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More than issues with the game, the way Digital Extremes talks to its community is something I wish Bungie would take note of.

Bungie built this fancy twitch studio and they use it twice a year to try and sell the new expansion. Why?

Remember last time? A scandal came up (was it the XP thing?), and they canceled the stream to address the issue in a write up. Why not address the issue in the stream? Because it's harder to ensure a stream is the carefully crafted bullshit you can get perfect in text? Give me something real--use that fancy new studio to actually talk to us, rather than using it for bad marketing.

It's pretty clear Bungie doesn't want to talk. They can't make changes fast enough for a meaningful dialogue to even take place. The way they are making the game just isn't really compatible with what people want in terms of communications.

I can totally accept that. But if that's the case, they should quit pretending that giving me a marketing pitch is engagement and communication.

Sorry, I don't want to turn this thread negative. I genuinely appreciate where Destiny is at right now. I'm perfectly happy playing for a few weeks every three or four months for expansions. I'm not looking for an accelerated content schedule or anything like that, I just want to feel like Bungie is being straight with me. While that's getting better so far this year, we're still not there yet, and Digital Extremes clearly takes that to a whole other level.

Mostly I'm still just confused by their streaming studio. They hyped it up like they were going to be doing cool streams, but so far they basically don't use it, and when they do it's pretty bad and lame and I feel like they're talking at me rather than to me. I feel like they're trying to sell me a Slap Chop.

This is why the whole “Bungie didn’t change... the community did” argument from a few threads ago strikes me as thoroughly incomplete. To say that Bungie hasn’t changed is simply false (and I don’t mean “change” in a purely negative sense, although I happen to feel that some of the changes are negative).

I should explain my thoughts in more detail... maybe I’ll do that later today.

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It hit me just a bit ago.

What I want the Bungie streams to be is basically the Bungie Podcast. The Bungie Podcast is the one thing they do that feels like real communication. And I don't mean real in the sense of it being responding to fans or community concerns or anything. I mean real in the sense that it doesn't feel scripted. It feels like some dudes sitting around talking about something they're excited about without an agenda.

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It hit me just a bit ago.

What I want the Bungie streams to be is basically the Bungie Podcast. The Bungie Podcast is the one thing they do that feels like real communication. And I don't mean real in the sense of it being responding to fans or community concerns or anything. I mean real in the sense that it doesn't feel scripted. It feels like some dudes sitting around talking about something they're excited about without an agenda.

That's exactly right. There is, however, 1 extra layer (at least for me).

One of the reasons I loved the Bungie podcasts so much back in the Halo 3/ODST/Reach days is that I'd listen to these guys talking about something they were excited about, and then a few weeks or months later I'd get to play the game and experience the specific thing they'd talked about, and it would be awesome. I loved the games in their own right, and that fed into my enthusiasm for the podcast because I got to hear the devs talking about the game they'd just made or the one they were making next, and I'd gain insight into the thing I already loved. I know this is super subjective, and only part of the equation, but some of that does get lost for me when I listed to a whole podcast about the new D2 weapon system and how great it is because it promotes player freedom and flexibility, and then I play the game and find it actually does the exact opposite and I don't find it nearly as fun as the system it replaced (I know that's a super specific example of a particular issue I have with the game, and I'm not trying to say its anything above or beyond that). So even though I love and appreciate the effort to create that podcast, and I love hearing the thought process behind the design of the game, my inner fanboy kinda checks out when the stuff I'm hearing just doesn't at all map on to my experience playing the game for myself.

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So even though I love and appreciate the effort to create that podcast, and I love hearing the thought process behind the design of the game, my inner fanboy kinda checks out when the stuff I'm hearing just doesn't at all map on to my experience playing the game for myself.

The devs of Super Meat Boy could give the best, most informative, most awesome to listen discussion of their game and I wouldn't listen because I straight up don't like the game. But I'd still give them full credit for communicating.

Just wanna be sure you're not conflating liking a game with how good a podcast is.

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So even though I love and appreciate the effort to create that podcast, and I love hearing the thought process behind the design of the game, my inner fanboy kinda checks out when the stuff I'm hearing just doesn't at all map on to my experience playing the game for myself.

The devs of Super Meat Boy could give the best, most informative, most awesome to listen discussion of their game and I wouldn't listen because I straight up don't like the game. But I'd still give them full credit for communicating.

Off topic, but the SMB devs don't give a shit. The Mac version was literally unplayable, and there's no way to get a refund or support beyond unofficial means. I will never buy anything from them ever because my experience was so bad. Made enough money off it to buy a house? Got mine! Fuck the guy who buys the Mac version which is complete dog shit without even the most basic functionality such as controller support and resolution options above 640 x 480.

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resolution options above 640 x 480.

I'm sorry, what? What year is this?

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resolution options above 640 x 480.

I'm sorry, what? What year is this?

Tell me about it.

Contrast this with WadjetEye who is just as small. I email them about dates for Mac versions of Technobabylon and Shardlight. The owner responds that they are coming, but might be a while. He points me to porting kit, and says I can buy the PC versions and get them to work with that. If it works, great! And he'll send me the Mac version for free when it's released. If it doesn't work, then I can get refunded.

It worked.

That's how you deal with your customers as an indie studio.

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So even though I love and appreciate the effort to create that podcast, and I love hearing the thought process behind the design of the game, my inner fanboy kinda checks out when the stuff I'm hearing just doesn't at all map on to my experience playing the game for myself.

The devs of Super Meat Boy could give the best, most informative, most awesome to listen discussion of their game and I wouldn't listen because I straight up don't like the game. But I'd still give them full credit for communicating.

Just wanna be sure you're not conflating liking a game with how good a podcast is.

I pretty clearly said that I still "love and appreciate the effort to create that podcast, and I love hearing the thought process behind the design of the game". :)

I think it is fair to say that the nature of their communication has changed drastically since the early Bungie Podcast days, but even when they get close to their older ways of communicating, it doesn't land with the same impact for me because I just don't believe it. I don't mean that in the "they're lying to me!" sense, because I don't think that way at all. Just that Bungie's assessment of the game(s) they are making is now very different than my own assessment. Which is not a criticism of them at all, but it is a factor that dampens my enjoyment of their efforts. To your point though, I do fully appreciate that kind of communication, when it happens.

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So even though I love and appreciate the effort to create that podcast, and I love hearing the thought process behind the design of the game

It might not be possible, but after the Bungie book is done (soon™) it would be cool if I could release all the interviews in audio form. There's so much excitement about both the big stuff and the little stuff. Random little (and big) details that are both fascinating and entertaining.

The thing is though, everything has to have a quantifiable PR slant now. Bungie signing with Activision is really a double edged sword in that regard, and in my opinion the self facing edge is more bloody than the one facing outward.

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I feel like something DE had to learn early on is that a game-as-a-service requires constant change. So the most important aspect of Warframe was really that they tried to make it easy to add new content early on. OTOH we've heard repeatedly how Bungie has found their new engine/tools/game technologies are making it take far too long to add new content to the game. The most important thing for Bungie to fix with Destiny IMO is to fix those issues so that they can add content faster. It sounds like they've been making real progress in that direction, but I suspect they still have a long way to go.

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The most important thing for Bungie to fix with Destiny IMO is to fix those issues so that they can add content faster. It sounds like they've been making real progress in that direction, but I suspect they still have a long way to go.

This might be the single most important factor for Destiny going forward.

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I feel like something DE had to learn early on is that a game-as-a-service requires constant change. So the most important aspect of Warframe was really that they tried to make it easy to add new content early on. OTOH we've heard repeatedly how Bungie has found their new engine/tools/game technologies are making it take far too long to add new content to the game. The most important thing for Bungie to fix with Destiny IMO is to fix those issues so that they can add content faster. It sounds like they've been making real progress in that direction, but I suspect they still have a long way to go.

See, that's the thing that makes D2 more frustrating. It was supposed to be a "clean slate" where Bungie could implement everything that they learned from building D1. We were told about how much easier it would be to make and tweak stuff (down to quick stat changes on individual guns!). And in the nearly-seven months since D2 launched, we've had just one significant balance change, and even the broken-gun fix took them a week to put in, and a month to fix.
The patch notes are no bigger than D1's, and a lot of that has been reversing bad decisions (sometimes even dealing with D1-era mistakes and issues).

Like the documentary says, DE learned early on that in order to sustain the game as a service, you not only need constant change, but you need quality. You need to provide quality content as often as possible, while simultaneously addressing player and balance issues, and periodically throwing a big curveball at players. And most importantly, it all has to be communicated well. You do this consistently and honestly, and it will not only retain and grow your playerbase, but it will also earn you a lot of room to make mistakes.

DE has missed deadlines, they've walked back on promised features, they've removed content from the game, they're not perfect, and even now there are issues in the game that have been around for ages, that they said they'd look into...

But they key difference is that they have always made a point to communicate every step of the way. They've acknowledged when they've made a mistake, they are always explaining how they plan to address certain issues, and they never hide behind "we're listening" while going completely silent between "Roadmap" updates.

A lot of these issues remain, because DE is still a fairly small studio, especially when you consider the scope of their game. The tech is constantly evolving. They've moved huge chunks of the game to new engines, have patched in custom tech, and a lot of times it ends up making far more work than they can handle, so promised stuff gets pushed back. And yet, they still execute on delvering quality content, and delivering it often.

So it really feels like Bungie's issues are self-imposed. They hyped up the game, and their development, and they promised "this time it'll be different". And then it's not, and their excuse is "game development is hard!" "It's difficult to make new content, because our engine and backend!" Like Cheap said, they make a Twitch set-up, hype it up as a platform for communication, then they only use it for marketing purposes when their new DLC is coming. There is no communication. Repeatedly reminding us about your Roadmap is not effective communication. Updating that Roadmap once a month is not enough. A single Warframe update has more changes, features, fixes, and content than the entire Bungie Roadmap has for the entire year (this is not an exaggeration, just look at this week's update).

Bungie has more than double the number of employees that DE does. D2 has four different development studios working on it, remember? It really begs the questions:
"Just what are all those studios and employees doing over there?"
"Is development on D2 really so hard that all of those dev teams can't put out content any faster than Bungie could during D1?"
"What are those Microtransactions paying for?"
"Who's watching the cash register!?"

So yeah, they clearly have a long way to go, but I really wonder what has held them back so much that they felt the need to make a full sequel, and then they seem to have all of the same exact issues holding them back yet again (as well as new issues that they brought to the game).

It all wouldn't be so bad if we got even a single morsel to tide us over between DLC. A free Crucible map, a new exotic, some more lore... heck, even some new emotes (that last Warframe update includes six new free emotes).

I just want to hear something honest from Bungie. Having dmg04 working on the THAB was a great step, but if there's nothing upcoming for him to talk about, I feel like even his updates will become more and more like DeeJ's filler.

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