Film Crit Hulk has quite a few words to say on the topic of The Last Jedi.

He puts into words all of my feelings on The Last Jedi in a way I could never articulate (and also points out plenty I hadn't quite noticed, as well).

A lot of that is entirely relevant to the Destiny community and the way the game is discussed, too.

A lot of that is entirely relevant to the Destiny community and the way the game is discussed, too.

Elaborate?

I don't see any similarity at all.

Destiny never had good storytelling. The narrative was always jumbled, broken, and poorly done. The investment system was detrimental, and at times abusive. The game at one point actively deceived players. This is a far cry from a well crafted film that doesn't do exactly what some fans want.

A lot of that is entirely relevant to the Destiny community and the way the game is discussed, too.

Elaborate?

I don't see any similarity at all.

Destiny never had good storytelling. The narrative was always jumbled, broken, and poorly done. The investment system was detrimental, and at times abusive. The game at one point actively deceived players. This is a far cry from a well crafted film that doesn't do exactly what some fans want.

I'd say the situations mirror each other well enough in two distinct ways. For Destiny 1, the expectations were based on the precedent of Bungie, not a previous Destiny game. For Destiny 2, the expectations were based on the precedent of what had changed in Destiny 1 since The Taken King.

A lot of that is entirely relevant to the Destiny community and the way the game is discussed, too.

Elaborate?

I don't see any similarity at all.

Destiny never had good storytelling. The narrative was always jumbled, broken, and poorly done. The investment system was detrimental, and at times abusive. The game at one point actively deceived players. This is a far cry from a well crafted film that doesn't do exactly what some fans want.

Thank you for proving the point.

I was merely talking about the way the game is discussed. If you don't like something, it's bad, rather than something you just didn't like. I would never argue that Destiny had great (or even good) storytelling. But the fact that discussion is framed like that, as an understood set of facts, rather than a set of opinions, is the entire point I was making (or hinting at, I guess, since I didn't actually make much of a statement).

But it's not even just about Destiny's storytelling. It's just how every facet of the game is discussed. You literally can't make a positive comment about Destiny (or refute a negative one) without being buried in downvotes. That's the level of discourse about Destiny.

I was just starting to forget this movie and move on. DANG IT!

There is no mistaking that The Last Jedi has become the bellwether for how you approach the larger goals of your Star Wars fandom. Truthfully, I don’t really care to debate whether the film is bad or good. The question I am much more interested in is, “why exactly did this film make a subsection of the fandom so damn upset?”

Because it's a shitty story that forgets it's in the middle of an arc! It kills the flow of the arc, because *mocking* ...OOoOO... look how clever I am! Haha I fooled your expectations!*/mocking*

Riddle me this! If this was the beginning of an arc by Rian Johnson, would the reaction be the same? Keep everything the same in this thought experiment, just change where it stands in the story line up, does that change how the story is interpreted at all? We just start - BOOM - right there on that hill top.

My answer to this, is that it changes the feel of everything. Why? Well, same reason as Destiny at launch. As I recall I talk about this in that OG Megapost of mine about Destiny 1 Year 1. Expectation. Things are already established, you take what you get and grow it to make it better. DON'T FREEK'n EXPERIMENT WITH FORMAT IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ARC!!! ESPECIALLY! ESPECIALLY!! In an ARC using THE BIGGEST GRAND-OL' CHARACTERS in WESTERN CINEMA! THIS is STAR WARS! With LUKE-flippen-SKYWALKER! These things bring with them weight in... I don't know what word to use. I guess what I mean to say it, when a movie changes how movies are made, that brings a degree or...eh.. royalty with it. For action movies right now, it's John Wick. For VFX, it's Star Wars. Plus - the classic heroes journey. I think it's fair to say for a large amount of media we consume, be it a book or movie, watching a character learn and change is fun, and perhaps even reflective.

Yet, for the Last Jedi, if it wasn't for the deaths, there is basically NO CHANGE! The movie is basically a waste of time to watch. The first half is about "killing the past", then then 2nd half REFUTES THE FIRST HALF! GAAAA! Phasma is still a joke, Ray is still powerful because whatever, Finn is still awkward and out of place & Kylo is still conflicted.

*ho ho! but what about Poe Dameron*

YEAH WHAT ABOUT 'IM! One lone minor arc of change does not a whole movie make. Nice try. Thanks for playing. Don't even get me started on that arcs presentation... holy scheiße. I know, lets put in a super obnoxious character who we movie goers have never met nor care about, unless we've read other forms of media, in our MAIN MOVIE. Don't flesh out WHY we should respect this person jugement, who they are, just THROW 'EM in there and give 'em a big rank! That's interesting! /s I have NO time to explain why I have no time to explain! What could POSSIBLY!... go wrong with that idea. People love being in the dark, nothing is more satisfying. /s

The Last Jedi is an Anti-Story. It is literally story Anti-Matter. But the WORST THING OF IT ALL!!!! ... is that this piece of shit was said by some to best film in the franchise since The Empire Strikes Back.

*OOooOoo* Oh boy. OOhhhhh boy. Happy place. Happy place.

That's like... telling Cody that the shipped vanilla story of Destiny is comparable to the story of Dues Ex. No. Just... No. I don't even want to get into that... so...

The dress is blue, and it's both yanny & laurel...

THAT'S WHY!

*Deep Breath*

There are an unfortunate amount of man-children in the fandom who don't know how to articulate feelings short of the base instincts. What happened with the actor who played Rose, for example, is simply disgraceful.

Worst of all, the story and motivations Rian Johnson seemed to be trying to tell has already been done, and like... with an actual degree of competence. Plus - IT's incomplete! Ironically, it's in the past, with Knights of the Old Republic 2. So, yeah. It's just... sad. If only they had Lucas former wife edit it.

Cus 'yall... I didn't even mention anything about that edit. MMMMm mmmmm. There are things in those deleted scenes that shouldn't have been.

... but I guess I should read the rest of this article now. :P

This is part of the problem of how any public disagreement can make it seem like there are “two equal sides,” when really it’s just two sides of an argument. But I also say all this like the percentages actually matter. They don’t, I’m just trying to explain what’s happening. But I don’t care about winning some hypothetical popularity contest. I’m much more interested in the aforementioned deeper diagnosis of “what is everyone really reacting to within this film?”

Why? Love. Inspiration. If you thought, for whatever reason, someone throw a ball of rancid shit at someone you loved, or inspired you, how would you react? That's why. It's not just a movie, and Lucas never really understood that. To him, it was just a medium for HIS experiments in movie making. I'm noticing pattern here, but maybe it's just me.

I have come to argue is that the storytelling of The Last Jedi played like a damn song, going from beat to beat with total clarity and acumen. No, I do not think it is full of bad writing. I think it is exemplary of very, very good writing.

I remember I walked out of The Last Jedi, and we were all smiling, but there was one guy in the group who was just so bitterly angry about this plot detail. The rest of us were taken aback, not by the comment itself, but by the depths of the anger behind it (it turns out he would not be alone, as it is the one comment that has been thrown around online ad nauseam). “It didn’t make any sense!” he shouted. It didn’t matter how much we threw back the fact that she outlined her reasons for not trusting him in their first scene together, nor did it matter how much we pointed out the real-life logic of how military brass is under no impetus to tell officers below them their plan (often this is due to potential capture, let alone, in the film, their paranoia of being tracked).

Oh my goodness. So... the issue with this here is that this person is using the experiences or knowledge they have to justify something in the movie that is not fleshed out. Unless the story makes those points clear throughout the movie, not just a bullet point, the argument is invalid. If someone isn't a military person, you can't expect that person to understand. IT HAS TO BE PART OF THE STORY! THIS IS THE JOB OF THE STORY! I'm not disagreeing with anything else here for the moment, just this qubble here. Don't interject reason if the story gives none. Rule #1 of story telling; The audience is stupid.

Because there is literally no point to approach the “bad logic” of a given story choice like you think you are fixing flaws of a film. Instead, you are literally erasing conflict from the movie. The obvious problem there is that the entire damn point of a movie is to create conflict. We want stories that get at the heart of strife between two people, and through the dramatization of that conflict, will say something about the human condition.

Not all conflict is created equal. Can you make the conflict endearing and believable? This is where haveing fleshed out charicters comes in, if only we had some. For more information; Game of Thrones.

(GoT Spoilers Ya'll)

(GoT Spoilers Ya'll)

I can’t tell you how many people came out of The Last Jedi angry because we didn’t get “answers” to the “questions” that were “posed” in the last film and literally called them plot holes. Now, to be fair, I’ll actually give them a little emotional leeway on this one because J.J. Abrams can’t seem to tell a single story detail without it lingering in “the air of mysteriousness” with a given scene, so perhaps it’s fair for that storytelling approach to foster some curiosity. But it is equally fair for me to argue that does not make them dramatically posed questions, either.

You mean... character development? Bro, you serious right now?

What happens to the Knights of Ren? I have no idea and I don’t care. There were just a few shots of them in The Force Awakens, and I’m pretty sure they were barely referenced in the actual text. I get being vaguely curious, but there is literally no presented dramatized reason to care beyond their mere extended universe existence within the lore.

Alright, I'll give ya that. As it stands right now, they wouldn't add to the story, not that we have much choice at that conclusion. Then again, mama always said be careful of the friends you make as they can make you. I admit, that's some Episode 9 speculation I through in there. Whatever, doesn't matter in 8. Moving on.

But what about Lord Snoke? Who is he? How did he rise to power? Well, does it matter? Don’t forget the original trilogy never really bothered answering those questions with the Emperor and it didn’t matter. (And didn’t the prequels tell us we didn’t really want that kind of answer, anyway?)

Fuuuck. I swear, between both sides of the fandom are fucking echos. It's a freeking broken record to the max. The mystery of Palpatine WAS THE POINT! It ADDED to the story of the original trilogy.

Yet here in 8, we're picking up -in a way- from where we left off in... Return of the Jedi. Luke (well... Vader) killed the Big bad. Now we have a new big bad. How did this happen? Is that REALLY such a stretch? A leap of imagination as to why that question exists? It's CONTINUATION! It's an establishing question. How did the world become as it is now, as it is these things that push our characters along their paths. What are the rules of this new yet old world?

The Last Jedi has a different modus operandi, in that it’s going to point a conflict in one direction, before twisting it and turning it another. This is common of a lot of traditional storytelling, particularly in noir or mystery, but it’s all about fostering moments of surprise.

The thing about being an audience member is you need to be willing to let it do this. You have to be willing to let yourself be tricked about a given direction.

Bullshit. I mean, look, if it's a mystery then OK. Figuring out the red herrings and all before the main character does is part of the fun. Yet what The Last Jedi does is so egregious, that it beats you over the head with this pattern again and again and again. The movie takes this tactic, and beats you over the head with it so much, it could probably legally be considered assault and battery. I can't say I've read EVERY story out there, but when a story does "trick", it's done so by earning it. The Last Jedi takes this, and turns it into a cheap parlor trick, that some sadly confuse for cleverness.

Shane Black often talks about “quality of edge,” which is the belief that a film has to have a proper balance of dramatic clarity, surprise, violence, non-violence, etc. Basically, the audience can quickly tire of something if you overplay your hand. And while it works for most of the big reveals, the feeling of constantly have to augment your sense of dramatic direction can have a lasting effect. So it’s not that the dramatic decisions of the film don’t add up, nor that they’re non-functional. It’s that a traditional audience can tire of having to always play that particular game. Which can make it feel slower, especially set against the grain of the go! go! go! style of The Force Awakens.

Oh... so, what I just said. Cool.

male character made to feel foolish or less than against a female character and HOO BOY does that open another can of worms (which we’ll get to later). Again, it’s all about learning to speak the language of what’s really happening with our reactions, especially when people keep insisting it’s about “logic.”

Ugh. Freeking man-babys.

...there are plenty of things I find objectionable in a given film and could apply a logic argument to, but I don’t. Because that’s not the point of storytelling, nor why I’d really find the given issue to be objectionable. It’s all about how characters grow, change and are in conflict in one another. Particularly in the way that all creates “arcs,” which is something that those same hardcore fans argued were “bad” in the movie. So what is really bothering people who watch this film? What is didn’t they get? Well in order to get to that, let’s dig into those…

I’m going to jump right into this, but remember: the heart of any character arc rests in the dramatization of the character psychology. We want to understand what they’re thinking, why, and how the film shows us this through an action in the text, then track the way it influences their behavior, or how it changes is or how they show resolve. Cool? Cool.

Agreed...er... Cool.

So, people are accusing Finn of having the weakest arc in the film. But let’s start with an important thing to talk about: yes, I too wish this new trilogy had better explored Finn’s stormtrooper trauma. I too wish it spent more time exploring how he’s deprogrammed and comes back into the world. I wish these things because it is important messaging that I feel is prescient to our own world. However, I do not take that wish so far as to make it a criticism of his characterization in these films, because they are out of text fan-fiction-y concerns. And it matters even less, because The Last Jedi not only grounds Finn in a way that The Force Awakens never did (his behavior was always haphazard, contradictory and weird in that one), but I actually think Finn actually has THE STRONGEST arc in film, and one that speaks to the entire movie.

So... yes, there are weak story points with Finn, but that doesn't matter anyway? Am I reading that right? I mean, shoot, it's in the same paragraph.

A bunch of words go here

SO I just read/skimmed this fellows narration of Finn (I skipped Poe), Rose, Kylo, & Rey. All I have to say it the power of editing. I know it's a bit of a cheap shot, and yeah I can totally out line a bunch of... retorts, but this post is already long enough. Maybe I'll do it later.

"It’s about saving what we love." ... I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

...and my goodness there is more. I'm going to skim the rest.

If you read any of the extended universe books, you’ll know that the empowerment fantasy went so deep that Luke Skywalker basically became god. Coupled with the deep revere for the Vader lore, there were so many disgusting notions about the power of the Skywalker bloodline and the toxic thinking that goes with it. Fellow nerds would look at me dead in the eye and exclaim, “FORCE POWER CAN ONLY BE INHERITED THROUGH REALLY GOOD GENES.” Yikes.

Yikes indeed. I blame midichlorians. :P

And now that has all exploded. To wit, a person I dare not link to, who has basically been operating a full-scale harassment campaign at everyone involved in the movie, wrote the following about what happened to Luke: “There are children now dealing with bereavement, mourning their hero, and they don’t understand. Their parents have to explain it to them, and they can’t. There are sick children (and adults) who needed an escape, and hope. But @RianJohnson mocks them. #TheLastJedi. #StarWars.”

Ugh. ◔__◔ Everyone dies. Get used to it kid.

So, yes, let’s talk about Old Man Luke.

I have no real issue with Old Man Luke, other than... the edit, and some of the content. Again, just as it is with Snoke; How did it get to this point? (Though admittedly there is at least SOMETHING to go off of with Luke.)

---------------------

I could add more from my skim, but I'm stopping this here for the moment. Thanks for reading, and have a nice day! July the 4th be with you! :P

1) I love when you go off, even when we disagree

2) T H A N K . Y O U . for that camera-man GIF

What’s this middle of an arc bullshit?

Where was it written that Last Jedi had to be the middle of an arc?

What’s this middle of an arc bullshit?

Where was it written that Last Jedi had to be the middle of an arc?

I could have sworn that this 7,8, & 9 was a three part saga, but sure. The House of Mouse will do as it does. I'll boil it down even more; Timing. With timing you can have said the very same thing, in the very same way, and depending on the timing it can be here with the audience resonating or several places rotting.

I'm Batman.

Timeing.

1) I love when you go off, even when we disagree

Uh. You're... wel-come.

2) T H A N K . Y O U . for that camera-man GIF

It clearly resonates with a ton of people, hence the piece we’re discussing.

I don’t care enough to debate it anymore, especially point by point, but I still can’t fathom being so angry about it if I didn’t like it.

It clearly resonates with a ton of people, hence the piece we’re discussing.

Yep. So did the "Bay-formers" (Transformers) sans the magnitude of cultural impact. That movie made so much money. I'll get back to this in a moment, but with Pacific Rim.

I don’t care enough to debate it anymore, especially point by point, but I still can’t fathom being so angry about it if I didn’t like it.

A splinter of the minds eye... how fitting. My first summation of this movie, as I recall and I still hold to was that it's a good movie, that isn't a good movie. That mismatch is maddning for many because they are unable to articulate what is "wrong". It just rubs the wrong way, and it's caused... a fair bit of madness. Or just mad, that too I suppose.

We're all looking for something in the films we watch, perhaps (eh~) it's part of the reason we have genre. I recall reading reviews for Pacific Rim, watching people state they didn't like the movie because the story was bad. Yet, Pacific Rim never going to be an A+ Story. It would be nice, but that's not what the story is there for. Pacific Rim is about watching Robots Vs Monsters smash into one another. That's it, criticizing it for a story that only exists to get the Robots and Monsters together is silly. The turn off you brain light as been turned on, and don't forget to buckle up.

Star Wars transcends this, sorta-kinda-work-with-me-here, as it is part of a rare cultural genre where it is a movie that went not only BIG, but people grew up with throughout there lives. I mean shoot, look at Halo. Ask Avateur what he feels about 343, it's the SAME THING.

It's all about what you came for, and your quality bar for it. I'd bet, if I wasn't such a sticker for story (among other things), I'd be right with the lot saying it's an enjoyable movie. Not that's it's better or as good as The Empire Strikes Back though. That shit is ba-naynays.

but I still can’t fathom being so angry about it if I didn’t like it.

Hulk explains it pretty well in this, and his Thundercats essay.

Yet, for the Last Jedi, if it wasn't for the deaths, there is basically NO CHANGE! The movie is basically a waste of time to watch.

Maybe you didn't read the essay, but Hulk explains exactly how for almost every character there IS a change. Huge changes.

but I still can’t fathom being so angry about it if I didn’t like it.

Hulk explains it pretty well in this, and his Thundercats essay.

I mean, I get what he’s saying. It makes sense, logically. It’s just difficult to put myself in that position, I guess. I can’t imagine feeling so bitter about a piece of entertainment.

The closest thing to Star Wars for me is Harry Potter. It was my childhood, and, along with The Lord of the Rings, the thing that made me enjoy reading and storytelling. The newest piece of that universe is The Cursed Child, a play. I’ve never seen the play, but I read the published script (is that way you call the written play? I don’t know.), and I didn’t like it. I feel the way about that thing the same way many apparently do about The Last Jedi. I made the same arguments in my head that the author of this piece is criticizing. Like The Last Jedi, it might totally be good storytelling, but I just didn’t like it. The thing is, I read it, I hated it, and then I just forgot about it and moved on with my life. It didn’t “ruin my childhood,” it didn’t take away my enjoyment of Harry Potter. It was just a new thing I didn’t like and can safely ignore.

I don’t begrudge anyone not liking The Last Jedi. That’s fine. I do begrudge people telling me it’s a bad movie and that I’m wrong for liking it, though. There’s value in critical analysis. Let’s gave a discussion about it though, not an argument. If someone is that fired up, it’s already sliding into being an argument, and I’m just not fucking interested in doing that anymore.

Yet, for the Last Jedi, if it wasn't for the deaths, there is basically NO CHANGE! The movie is basically a waste of time to watch.

Maybe you didn't read the essay, but Hulk explains exactly how for almost every character there IS a change. Huge changes.

The state of the universe didn’t change much though, which is what I always feel like people are talking about when they say there was no point. Snoke died, that’s really the biggest change in those terms. I don’t think that matters at all—character growth is far more interesting and important.

Yet, for the Last Jedi, if it wasn't for the deaths, there is basically NO CHANGE! The movie is basically a waste of time to watch.

Maybe you didn't read the essay, but Hulk explains exactly how for almost every character there IS a change. Huge changes.

• First, I saw you post this as you posted it. I (silently) gave you a chance to... double check what you were saying.
  
  
• Second, with gleeful irony I might add, if you read MY whole post, you'd see that at the point that I posted that, I had not yet read... well... skimmed (again as mentioned) over the part where he does his autopsy over each characters story. Since you apparently missed that part of my ramble (:P), I denote editing as an issue and stop there. I'll add it would take longer for me to write out, and would be far easier to show. Unfortunately, AS MUCH as I would like to make my own edit, time is not my friend currently. So I'll just end this with the next part if my quote above;

The first half is about "killing the past", then then 2nd half REFUTES THE FIRST HALF!

The story does change throughout,yet we return to where we started. Unlike say Mad Max: Fury Road, there is basically no change in our characters. They are still the same. There COULD have been change, it's in the story, but we don't get it. Short of the deaths, there is little committed. An example; Kylo is still conflicted. he went through all this conflict, and he ended up the same, sans rank. Kylo easily has the better arc of them all, but for some reason they couldn't just commit to the options of change! He ultimately ends up where he started. Conflicted and I'll add Alone. He progressed, but didn't.

- No text -

[*]Second, with gleeful irony I might add, if you read MY whole post, you'd see that at the point that I posted that, I had not yet read... well... skimmed (again as mentioned) over the part where he does his autopsy over each characters story. Since you apparently missed that part of my ramble (:P)

Guilty.

Well, it will take at least half an hour to read that, so no comment yet, but as long as we are posting opinions worth hearing on The Last Jedi…

I'm not saying it represents me or it's all right, bu it's worth hearing out (and his Force Awakens Review was very close to my feelings).

As long as we are posting opinions worth hearing on The Last Jedi…

I'm not saying it represents me or it's all right, but it's worth hearing out.

As long as we are posting opinions worth hearing on The Last Jedi…

I'm not saying it represents me or it's all right, but it's worth hearing out.

That quote from "Story" regarding pressure…

I don't think that's necessarily true.

Think about the old adage where you look at how someone treats the waiter. If they are nasty, dismissive, or rude, then it's a good indication they aren't a nice person. But there's no pressure in the situation. Yet, it says a lot about the person if they are mean to the server.

Sometimes the little things actually reveal a great deal about a character than decisions made under intensity.

I feel like I’m seeing things everyone is missing regarding what is really happening in TLJ and/or why those things are happening. Perhaps it is because I’ve been going through a period of rapid personal transformation and I’m beginning to understand a lot more about the nuance of people’s behavior. I’m a bit short on time, but I’m going to try to articulate my thoughts below. Sorry if it is a bit incoherent, it sort of turned into an incoherent ramble; I’ll come back to clarify or reply to any misunderstandings or rebuttals. :P
The entire movie’s plot arc is about the characters’ attempts at recognizing their key personal beliefs, both positive and negative, and the acceptance or refutation of those inner truths. Some of the arcs live up to my flowery summation more than others, sure, but it fits well enough.

The main arc (Rey/Kylo) is about understanding the past and either accepting it or rejecting it. Kylo’s arc is the more relatable to the average viewer. Indeed, his behavior is, while on the extreme end of the spectrum, the type of behavior many people in society exhibit: unable to introspect well enough to understand and accept their pasts and grow rather than be chained by it. Kylo’s killing of the past is him dismissing it as if it doesn’t matter and can just go away. Here’s the rub, that doesn’t work. He has double down on the path he is on, thinking that this is his only/best option, despite all his feelings to the contrary. He is stuck in a deterministic state, unable to truly make a choice for himself. (Not to say he can’t choose better and that it’s not his responsibility, but he isn’t able to as he exists right now) This choice is his continuation down the spiral to ruin, increasing the stakes of the conflict to come.

Rey, on the other hand, comes to Luke with preconceived notions. Expectations. Luke throws her expectations right off the cliff behind him. He, too, is chained by his past. I’d imagine Luke had a lot of visceral fear of beginning the cycle of hate anew. The responsibility not to fail was on his shoulders, weighing on him, day by day, through every little decision. I know I’m assuming things here, but if you simply put yourselves in the shoes of this man, it is quite plausible. Nonetheless, I understand that this is an interpretation. But, assuming we roll with this, when Luke finally slips up and makes that mistake, he shuts down. To anyone who doesn’t believe Luke would have ever made that mistake, even for a split second, probably hasn’t been to therapy before; negative behaviors never go away and will inevitably relapse. The key is to forgive yourself for the relapse and move on, continuing to put effort into not repeating that mistake. However, this kind of mistake is not the kind you can smooth over by buying your buddy lunch. It’s a permanent, lasting consequence. And so, Luke recuses himself, now fully believing he is incapable of bringing the Jedi back into existence without the risk of some of his padawans turning to the Dark Side. A risk he was no longer willing to take.

Rey hasn’t seen his failure and doesn’t know his past pain that led to these circumstances, so she doesn’t understand why he has become this recluse. Nevertheless, what she and the rest of the Galaxy still see or can still see is that the Jedi are a symbol of hope. But no, says Luke! The Jedi are a sham! Their dogma blinded them to reality which led to the catastrophe of Order 66 and beyond. And he’s not wrong; the Jedi were puritanical, self-righteous, and as a result, complacent.

The thing is, you might think that the movie didn’t do a great job of portraying these elements. But see, they did. The problem is that not everyone can relate to everyone else. Not everyone you meet will make sense to you. But to those of us who have been in those characters shoes, we see the inner layers of conflict that rest just below the surface. That may yet be another lesson the movie has to offer: we must get better at understanding how to relate to those who are not like us.

Ultimately, both the Jedi and the Sith were closeminded as to the capability and purpose of the Force, forcing (lol) it into a box that fit the reality they wanted to see. But have you noticed how curious Rey is? She delves into the Dark side without hesitation and she went into the cave searching for answers. Contrast that to Luke and his trek into the Swamp in Degobah; Luke was afraid, Rey was curious. Open-minded. You’ll also note that Rey does use quite a bit of emotion in her Lightsaber fights and even used a saber technique in TFA reminiscent of Palpatine. Rey does not concern herself with the Light or Dark side of the Force, she simply explores what is. Rey tries to accept the past that has come before her (which is frankly a lot easier when you didn’t experience it) and learn from those failures to try to make a better future. This is where the Jedi and Luke all slipped up, they did not learn from their failures, they wallowed in them and tortured themselves over it rather than accepting it and moving forward.

Rey has a moral compass that guides her sense of morality and sees those ideals in the Jedi and in the Rebel Republic/Alliance (as do seemingly many others in the galaxy). Just because the Jedi’s old ways were toxic and to their own self-detriment doesn’t mean the Jedi of the future can’t evolve into something better that strives to fulfill those ideals.
And as for the Force, perhaps there will come acceptance that the Force is what you make of it. How you use it and the intent behind your use determines how it ultimately affects you. It’s all about state of mind. Emotions are important, they are a unique trait in life. The use of emotions in conjunction with the Force literally makes them more powerful. Frankly, I’d say that emotions make us more powerful in general. That doesn’t mean emotions are bad it just means we need to manage them. The Jedi achieved this by completely abstaining from emotion. Yeah, tell me how that works out for anyone in the end.

Rey’s severance from the past comes from the acceptance of what has come before and learning from it to make better choices. Kylo is continuing to try to kill his past but the past never goes away. You can never outrun the things that have come before you. You must make peace with them…but Kylo has continued to choose poorly and his character arc has him headed for a great fall. Luke came to terms with the idea that failure is not the end but is always a new beginning for a better tomorrow.

I know I rambled here and it could probably be organized better but I spend way too long on this. I’ll be back later to talk with y’all!

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Star Wars transcends this, sorta-kinda-work-with-me-here, as it is part of a rare cultural genre where it is a movie that went not only BIG, but people grew up with throughout there lives. I mean shoot, look at Halo. Ask Avateur what he feels about 343, it's the SAME THING.

Yeah! In case you have no idea what he's referring to, ask away! We can do this AMA-style. What could possibly go wrong? :P

All jokes aside, I would like to point out that every Star Wars movie I've ever seen in theater or on VHS or on DVD actually worked after I paid for it and tried to watch it. And if it hadn't, you can bet your ass I would have been given a refund. Major divergence there.

I feel like I’m seeing things everyone is missing regarding what is really happening in TLJ and/or why those things are happening. Perhaps it is because I’ve been going through a period of rapid personal transformation and I’m beginning to understand a lot more about the nuance of people’s behavior.

Sweet. I'm glad for your new set of eyes to see the world. Collect the whole set!

I’m a bit short on time, but I’m going to try to articulate my thoughts below. Sorry if it is a bit incoherent, it sort of turned into an incoherent ramble; I’ll come back to clarify or reply to any misunderstandings or rebuttals. :P

No worries! Incoherent ramble is my specialty! :P

The entire movie’s plot arc is about the characters’ attempts at recognizing their key personal beliefs, both positive and negative, and the acceptance or refutation of those inner truths. Some of the arcs live up to my flowery summation more than others, sure, but it fits well enough.

Yep.

The main arc (Rey/Kylo) is about understanding the past and either accepting it or rejecting it. Kylo’s arc is the more relatable to the average viewer. Indeed, his behavior is, while on the extreme end of the spectrum, the type of behavior many people in society exhibit: unable to introspect well enough to understand and accept their pasts and grow rather than be chained by it. Kylo’s killing of the past is him dismissing it as if it doesn’t matter and can just go away. Here’s the rub, that doesn’t work. He has double down on the path he is on, thinking that this is his only/best option, despite all his feelings to the contrary. He is stuck in a deterministic state, unable to truly make a choice for himself. (Not to say he can’t choose better and that it’s not his responsibility, but he isn’t able to as he exists right now) This choice is his continuation down the spiral to ruin, increasing the stakes of the conflict to come.

Yep.

Rey, on the other hand, comes to Luke with preconceived notions. Expectations.

Oh really? :)

Luke throws her expectations right off the cliff behind him. He, too, is chained by his past. I’d imagine Luke had a lot of visceral fear of beginning the cycle of hate anew. The responsibility not to fail was on his shoulders, weighing on him, day by day, through every little decision. I know I’m assuming things here, but if you simply put yourselves in the shoes of this man, it is quite plausible. Nonetheless, I understand that this is an interpretation. But, assuming we roll with this, when Luke finally slips up and makes that mistake, he shuts down. To anyone who doesn’t believe Luke would have ever made that mistake, even for a split second, probably hasn’t been to therapy before; negative behaviors never go away and will inevitably relapse. The key is to forgive yourself for the relapse and move on, continuing to put effort into not repeating that mistake. However, this kind of mistake is not the kind you can smooth over by buying your buddy lunch. It’s a permanent, lasting consequence. And so, Luke recuses himself, now fully believing he is incapable of bringing the Jedi back into existence without the risk of some of his padawans turning to the Dark Side. A risk he was no longer willing to take.

It feels abit like, you're using the experiences or knowledge you may have to justify something in the movie that is not fleshed out, plus certain philosophical differences, but... sure. Yep.

Rey hasn’t seen his failure and doesn’t know his past pain that led to these circumstances, ...

Much like the audience.

...so she doesn’t understand why he has become this recluse. Nevertheless, what she and the rest of the Galaxy still see or can still see is that the Jedi are a symbol of hope. But no, says Luke! The Jedi are a sham! Their dogma blinded them to reality which led to the catastrophe of Order 66 and beyond. And he’s not wrong; the Jedi were puritanical, self-righteous, and as a result, complacent.

The thing is, you might think that the movie didn’t do a great job of portraying these elements. But see, they did. The problem is that not everyone can relate to everyone else. Not everyone you meet will make sense to you. But to those of us who have been in those characters shoes, we see the inner layers of conflict that rest just below the surface. That may yet be another lesson the movie has to offer: we must get better at understanding how to relate to those who are not like us.

Ultimately, both the Jedi and the Sith were closeminded as to the capability and purpose of the Force, forcing (lol) it into a box that fit the reality they wanted to see. But have you noticed how curious Rey is? She delves into the Dark side without hesitation and she went into the cave searching for answers. Contrast that to Luke and his trek into the Swamp in Degobah; Luke was afraid, Rey was curious. Open-minded. You’ll also note that Rey does use quite a bit of emotion in her Lightsaber fights and even used a saber technique in TFA reminiscent of Palpatine. Rey does not concern herself with the Light or Dark side of the Force, she simply explores what is. Rey tries to accept the past that has come before her (which is frankly a lot easier when you didn’t experience it) and learn from those failures to try to make a better future. This is where the Jedi and Luke all slipped up, they did not learn from their failures, they wallowed in them and tortured themselves over it rather than accepting it and moving forward.

Rey has a moral compass that guides her sense of morality and sees those ideals in the Jedi and in the Rebel Republic/Alliance (as do seemingly many others in the galaxy). Just because the Jedi’s old ways were toxic and to their own self-detriment doesn’t mean the Jedi of the future can’t evolve into something better that strives to fulfill those ideals.

And as for the Force, perhaps there will come acceptance that the Force is what you make of it. How you use it and the intent behind your use determines how it ultimately affects you. It’s all about state of mind. Emotions are important, they are a unique trait in life. The use of emotions in conjunction with the Force literally makes them more powerful. Frankly, I’d say that emotions make us more powerful in general. That doesn’t mean emotions are bad it just means we need to manage them. The Jedi achieved this by completely abstaining from emotion. Yeah, tell me how that works out for anyone in the end.

Rey’s severance from the past comes from the acceptance of what has come before and learning from it to make better choices. Kylo is continuing to try to kill his past but the past never goes away. You can never outrun the things that have come before you. You must make peace with them…but Kylo has continued to choose poorly and his character arc has him headed for a great fall. Luke came to terms with the idea that failure is not the end but is always a new beginning for a better tomorrow.

I know I rambled here and it could probably be organized better but I spend way too long on this. I’ll be back later to talk with y’all!

I've mentioned KOTOR:II already. ("Worst of all, the story and motivations Rian Johnson seemed to be trying to tell has already been done, and like... with an actual degree of competence. Plus - IT's incomplete! Ironically, it's in the past, with Knights of the Old Republic 2.")

I've looked UP and DOWN, and I can't seem to find the clip I'm looking for, but in it's place I bring a strong contender.

The main part starts @ 2:57.

(GOSH DARN! This games writing is SO SOLID! AAHHH! I miss this... so much.)

Star Wars transcends this, sorta-kinda-work-with-me-here, as it is part of a rare cultural genre where it is a movie that went not only BIG, but people grew up with throughout there lives. I mean shoot, look at Halo. Ask Avateur what he feels about 343, it's the SAME THING.

Yeah! In case you have no idea what he's referring to, ask away! We can do this AMA-style. What could possibly go wrong? :P

All jokes aside, I would like to point out that every Star Wars movie I've ever seen in theater or on VHS or on DVD actually worked after I paid for it and tried to watch it. And if it hadn't, you can bet your ass I would have been given a refund. Major divergence there.

No Laser Disk? Avateur, I am disappoint. :P

The closest thing to Star Wars for me is Harry Potter. It was my childhood, and, along with The Lord of the Rings, the thing that made me enjoy reading and storytelling. The newest piece of that universe is The Cursed Child, a play. I’ve never seen the play, but I read the published script (is that way you call the written play? I don’t know.), and I didn’t like it. I feel the way about that thing the same way many apparently do about The Last Jedi. I made the same arguments in my head that the author of this piece is criticizing. Like The Last Jedi, it might totally be good storytelling, but I just didn’t like it. The thing is, I read it, I hated it, and then I just forgot about it and moved on with my life. It didn’t “ruin my childhood,” it didn’t take away my enjoyment of Harry Potter. It was just a new thing I didn’t like and can safely ignore.

I've never read the books and have only seen the movies (and even then, I don't like 2, 3, or 6). When it comes to the play, especially since all you've read is a script, I suppose I have a few questions. And I'm not really searching for anything with these, just trying to get your thought process.

Do you think that's a fair way to judge the thing without seeing it performed? Does the fact that Rowling herself contributed impact your thoughts on it? Regardless of the first two questions, does this play have any major bearing on what came before in a way that retcons, undoes, or (in your own opinion) destroys what came before?

I have no idea what this play is. I literally just looked up the writers, and I didn't read a plot synopsis. I assume it's a prequel? There are also the Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them things (I haven't seen the movie, but apparently there's a sequel coming out sooner or later). Is Rowling invovled with those? I know Harry Potter people, and I can't say I've heard tales of tragedy and woe regarding canon being destroyed or characters being portrayed completely differently and illogically compared to what came before.

So, of course there's your own personality and way that you react to things that will surely differ from how others do. But I don't know if comparing whatever these Harry Potter things are (especially when still being contributed to by the original creator and author) to what has happened with Star Wars in VIII or (as Insane pointed out) to Halo really works.

Now if you wanna talk about the Hobbit movies, I view so much of those things as a waste of time and a cash grab with unnecessary fan fiction characters and events that don't add much to anything at all. But those movie adaptations do nothing to the original works of The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings. Star Wars and Halo, on the other hand, are still doing a thing with pre-existing characters in ways that are apparently canon according to the overlords of the series. That's going to upset people. It may have been a slip-up, but Mark Hamill himself didn't really like what happened with Luke (because that's not what Luke or a Jedi would do).

For the record, I'm not saying I agree with Hamill at all here. I'm on record here as saying that I enjoyed VIII, but it's a mess. Halo, lol, you know (AMA!!). But because Star Wars and Halo are still "living and breathing" things (as you know, I say Halo is dead--I have heard numerous coworkers, friends, husbands/wives of friends say that Star Wars is dead to them after VIII), issues with canon, character, writing, overall story, and on and on are going to deeply impact people. I don't know if the Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings comparison really fits.

Do you think that's a fair way to judge the thing without seeing it performed?

No, which is why I brought up that I hadn't actually seen the performance. However, they did publish the script and basically advertised it as the new Harry Potter book.

Does the fact that Rowling herself contributed impact your thoughts on it?

I honestly don't know. The fact that she was involved makes it harder to ignore than if she hadn't been, I guess. I probably wouldn't have even read it otherwise.

Regardless of the first two questions, does this play have any major bearing on what came before in a way that retcons, undoes, or (in your own opinion) destroys what came before?

No, I don't think it destroys what came before, even where I don't think it lines up with what came before (see below). That was my point. I just ignore it, forget about it, and I continue to enjoy Harry Potter as much as I always have.

I have no idea what this play is. I literally just looked up the writers, and I didn't read a plot synopsis. I assume it's a prequel? There are also the Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them things (I haven't seen the movie, but apparently there's a sequel coming out sooner or later). Is Rowling invovled with those? I know Harry Potter people, and I can't say I've heard tales of tragedy and woe regarding canon being destroyed or characters being portrayed completely differently and illogically compared to what came before.

The Cursed Child is a sequel, dealing with children of the main characters of the original series. It does a lot of stuff that I feel like doesn't make sense. It fucks with Time Turners, and how those things explicitly worked in the main series. Voldemort had a kid, something that is also almost explicitly against his character as presented in the main series. That's the thing I was talking about--I see myself making the same sort of arguments that the author in the Star Wars piece was criticizing. Those details are important, they matter, but, at the end of the day, they're secondary to telling a good story (in my opinion). Either you believe Luke could close himself off to the Force and become the man we saw in The Last Jedi or you don't--the fact that we didn't personally see the events that led to that transformation isn't important, or even that relevant to the story The Last Jedi was trying to tell. At a certain point, you just have to meet the film half way. I totally do, and I can easily see Luke making that transformation, especially as the film does do quite a bit to lay it out for the audience. We heard it explicitly from Luke's own mouth, what more could we need?

It's been a while since I actually read The Cursed Child, so I'm fuzzy on the details. I might be interested to read it again, to judge if it's actually a good story, but I did get lost in those details the firs time, and could help but think it was garbage because of them. This comes back around to your first question. No, I don't think reading the script is a good way to judge that--it's not like reading a novel, and it's hard (for me at least) to feel like I'm reading anything but a script, which makes it easier for me to get caught up in those nagging details that I feel like don't match with the universe I know.

But, as I said, I'm willing to just let it go. Maybe I'd be a better person for attempting to read it again, to try and judge it more fairly. But, honestly, I don't care enough. I didn't like it, I'm content to just let that be that. But, more importantly, I don't spend my time jumping into conversations about Harry Potter trying to let everyone know how much I hate The Cursed Child, which is what happens anytime anyone anywhere on the internet brings up Star Wars, or Destiny for that matter, or, hell, even Halo.

I really understand be bummed about not liking the new Star Wars (or Halo, or Harry Potter, or Star Trek, or whatever thing you love with a new entry that you don't--I can only imagine how Mustang fans felt when the Mustang II hit the streets).

As for Fantastic Beasts: I liked the first film well enough, and the trailers for the second have me intrigued. I don't particularly feel like we need to see the story of Dumbledore and Grindelwald (especially as told through the eyes of neither one of them), but I also don't hate the idea. It's the same sort of thing Rogue One and Solo are--wholly unnecessary, but ultimately well done films, fun movies. I like the Harry Potter world enough to want to soak up more of it, and if this is what that looks like, I'm okay with it.

The last I knew, Rowling was involved with those films, but I don't know in what capacity. It could be as much as writing and consulting on design or whatever, or as little as just slapping her name on it so people think it's "official."

Star Wars transcends this, sorta-kinda-work-with-me-here, as it is part of a rare cultural genre where it is a movie that went not only BIG, but people grew up with throughout there lives. I mean shoot, look at Halo. Ask Avateur what he feels about 343, it's the SAME THING.

Yeah! In case you have no idea what he's referring to, ask away! We can do this AMA-style. What could possibly go wrong? :P

All jokes aside, I would like to point out that every Star Wars movie I've ever seen in theater or on VHS or on DVD actually worked after I paid for it and tried to watch it. And if it hadn't, you can bet your ass I would have been given a refund. Major divergence there.

No Laser Disk? Avateur, I am disappoint. :P

Nothing gets you into the movie like having to get up and turn it to side 2 halfway through.

Rey hasn’t seen his failure and doesn’t know his past pain that led to these circumstances, ...

Much like the audience.

That's sort of the point, isn't it? Think it cruel trickery or whatever, if you want. But fans spent the time between The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi theorizing about how badass Luke Skywalker was going to be when he finally came back (and he exceeded my expectations in the most perfect way, by the way). Rey is us in that moment, almost precisely.

I don't understand where you're coming from with the idea that Luke's turn isn't fleshed out or well explained. We hear it literally from Luke's own mouth. What more do you need? Do we really need to see every thing Ben ever did as a kid that made Luke scared enough to turn on his lightsaber in that moment? Luke's word that he was that scared isn't good enough? Is that moment not enough to make you believe that Luke would feel such failure that he would turn his back on the Jedi path? It makes complete sense to me, I totally buy everything about it.

You said in one of your previous posts that audiences are stupid. I completely disagree. Not every single little detail needs to be laid out. I would argue that if you can't believe Luke's turn, that's a problem with you, not a problem with the film, because the films makes it pretty clear without lingering on it for ages (as if it has the minutes to spare). I don't mean that as a dig at you, really, I'm just not sure how else to say it. I don't mean that it's a "problem" with you, maybe more that it's just a result of your expectations for storytelling.

...and while the performance itself was lovely, and while I enjoyed to plot and characters to an extent, there were a few plot issues that break the rules of the universe in irreconcilable ways; plot points that the entire foundation of the plot hinge upon.

As far as the way the characters grew up...it may not have been what anyone expected, but hey, when does life go quite as planned? Some of the reasoning behind how they got to where they are felt a little weak and shoehorned, but again, its about letting go of expectations and letting the storyteller tell the dang story.

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It may have been a slip-up, but Mark Hamill himself didn't really like what happened with Luke (because that's not what Luke or a Jedi would do).

Definitely wasn't a slip-up, but he's actually said he didn't like it while it was being filmed, and hasn't come to grips with it still, but he also thinks Rian Johnson made a great film. Seems like he's saying what a lot of people thought when seeing it (including me): a lot of people are going to hate it.

Rey hasn’t seen his failure and doesn’t know his past pain that led to these circumstances, ...

Much like the audience.

That's sort of the point, isn't it? Think it cruel trickery or whatever, if you want. But fans spent the time between The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi theorizing about how badass Luke Skywalker was going to be when he finally came back (and he exceeded my expectations in the most perfect way, by the way). Rey is us in that moment, almost precisely.

Yep. No disagreements here. A fine storytelling moment that primes questions both new and old. And yet.

I don't understand where you're coming from with the idea that Luke's turn isn't fleshed out or well explained. We hear it literally from Luke's own mouth. What more do you need? Do we really need to see every thing Ben ever did as a kid that made Luke scared enough to turn on his lightsaber in that moment? Luke's word that he was that scared isn't good enough? Is that moment not enough to make you believe that Luke would feel such failure that he would turn his back on the Jedi path? It makes complete sense to me, I totally buy everything about it.

It's not about 1 or 0, it's about emotional content. A story is not just data, for if it was, then exposition would be enough. There is a second part to this, but I'll hold to this a bit more first.

It's -dare I say- fairly obvious, based on the tone of the movie, that Rian Johnson really wanted to push the old characters away to make way for the new. Which is fine, GREAT even. Honestly this move isn't surprising in the least, in fact I applaud it. Yet, for these characters that for DECADES were the FACE of Star Wars, no stone must be left unturned. People grew up with Luke Skywalker. Have a resonance with Lukes character in the original trilogy. This is a problem, as now there needs to be explanations mixed with the continuing stories of our new Disney Heroes. It's not a Luke Skywalker movie, and it can’t be. There there is no room for error and each thread needed to be weaved with precision. ESPECIALLY... I mean seriously, ESPECIALLY if that FACE of Star Wars is going to be killed off, for whatever that may mean.

If I had the keys to direct & edit, I would have probably cut short the utterly lame Casino Sub-Plot (which I want to add does have interesting things in it), and given Luke Skywalker a touch more screen time, because this is it. How does a hopeful young man become a grizzled hermit drinking -*shock*- GREEN milk, between when we saw him last to where we found him now? Yes, we have those answers perhaps, but it’s also not what you say but how you say it. In other words, editing, as I've mentioned a few times already.

Yeah they throw out a few bones of story, but there is little emotional meat per the weight of it all and I don't mean acting - they all played their parts. There were times where WE the viewer were required to fill in the blanks. For example; Why was Luke mourning the death of Han Solo cut from the movie? Who was the sociopath who thought (not that it's that simple) such a small moment wasn't worth showing? Here is that scene, which was a deleted scene, edited back together. I remind you that in the movie after Luke finds out his friend is dead, the movie immediately cuts to something else entirely (and I don't recall what).

Keep in mind that this clip changed the music around, but this helps give the basic idea. If that had been in the Movie, it would let the viewer grieve with Luke for his lost friend. That’s SO IMPORTANT! It’s both catharsis and character building (which of which depends on the viewer) and this was cut!

Look, I’m not sure If I have explained this well enough to present how simply content is not enough, but this is what I have to express right now. Sorry if you’re still scratching your head with this.

Sidenote – I find my self wondering how this all looks, and shall look, to those who didn't grow up with Luke Skywalker. Who just sees some old dude who knows things.

You said in one of your previous posts that audiences are stupid. I completely disagree. Not every single little detail needs to be laid out. I would argue that if you can't believe Luke's turn, that's a problem with you, not a problem with the film, because the films makes it pretty clear without lingering on it for ages (as if it has the minutes to spare). I don't mean that as a dig at you, really, I'm just not sure how else to say it. I don't mean that it's a "problem" with you, maybe more that it's just a result of your expectations for storytelling.

Again! Story Story Story! I’m like a broken record over here. Or maybe I’m crazy – neh. Nonsense. We all have Imaginary Killer Hamsters too, right? Right!? Anyway… let’s parse through this (with the quoted words in Bold):

Not every single little detail needs to be laid out.

Yes.

I would argue that if you can't believe Luke's turn, that's a problem with you, not a problem with the film, because the films makes it pretty clear without lingering on it for ages (as if it has the minutes to spare).

No. A story is a journey, or at least tends to be, especially Starwars in its classical sense. Perhaps instead of stupid, the word should be ignorant but regardless, we're entering a world with its own rules. It’s not up to us to tell the story, it’s the STORIES job to tell the story. When it comes to a story, if I don’t understand something, it’s inherently left to the story to fill those gaps at some point.

With that said, all this doesn’t mean I can’t misunderstand (or simply miss parts of) the story, of course. But to say that the buck stops with the audience is simply nonsense. It is the leader that solves the problem, it is the leader that gets the blame. The story is what leads you; be it a heard or read, watched or played. There were answers, but little solutions.

But with that said, it’s never that simple right? Know your audience. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sidenote #2 – Can anyone else see how difficult this is? It's like I'm trying to describe and discern exact layers of an onion. Not this layer, but THAT layer! Woah! Uhggg.

No. A story is a journey, or at least tends to be, especially Starwars in its classical sense. Perhaps instead of stupid, the word should be ignorant but regardless, we're entering a world with its own rules. It’s not up to us to tell the story, it’s the STORIES job to tell the story. When it comes to a story, if I don’t understand something, it’s inherently left to the story to fill those gaps at some point.

So, as someone who has seen Star Wars in release order, I wonder how someone who saw them in chronological order would feel about the behavior shift from Episode 3 Anakin to Episode 4 Darth Vader? I honestly don't see how we get from A to B on that one and the movies have never really said...but we all accept it, don't we?

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Episode 3 only gets a pass because it's cool, because damn if it isn't bad at filling the holes between ep2 and ep4

Here is the thing regarding editing and moviemaking: you can’t just think moment to moment, but you have to look at the big picture.

You’ve seen Spider-Man Homecoming right? There were two scenes with Vulture that were cut out. Scenes which were good. Scenes which deepened his character and motivations. So why were they cut?

The scenes took place between the fight with the ferry and when Peter picked up MJ for the dance. Basically, with those scenes gone, the reveal when Peter opens the door is much more shocking and impactful. Because without those scenes, the audience ‘forgets’ about Vulture. So to have him come back that way made everything much more tense and unexpected than if you’d just seen him the scene before.

Now I don’t remember what it cuts to after Luke asks where Han is, but I do remember Luke’s feelings about Han’s death not mattering that much in the scheme of things. And that scene is all of 16 seconds. It’s not really enough to really let it sink in, but too long that it stops the movie while it’s happening.

It’s on Netflix, so maybe I’ll watch it again with this in mind!

The point is, even good scenes get cut because the movie has to come first.

While I do like that scene that was cut, it’s not necessary. Luke’s momentary confusion about hearing Rey mention the Falcon, then the realization and him asking, “Where’s Han?” in the way he does is enough. We can infer his mourning. I won’t disagree that those moments are good, even if only as a sort of fan service or whatever, but I don’t think it’s necessary in this instance, and I’m not sure it makes for a better film.

Episode 3 only gets a pass because it's cool, because damn if it isn't bad at filling the holes between ep2 and ep4

I don't think it was meant to. The trilogy was meant to highlight the three most pivotal moments in Anakin's life that led him to become Vader. But we don't cover how we get from Day 1 Vader to A New Hope Vader...and it's sort of a hard sell. But we all accept it, because ANH Vader is OG and cool and stuff...

Exceptions made for reasons and all that.

So yeah I watched the film again.

The cut in the film is perfect. Where's Han? --> Kylo Ren.

You don't need that scene.

I watched it today as well. Totally agree.

With Snoke and Mirrors.

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OK. I read it last week. It's not so much that I disagree wit the main points, it's that I just am not nearly so impressed by the things that were there as he and in some cases I simply disagree VERY much about how successfully it was done (Finn's character development and Casino planet are the prime examples). More than any of it though, is I just never felt like I was really connecting to the characters very well. I know why they were doing things, mostly; and it made sense, mostly. It just felt kinda distant from me emotionally, and some of it seemed kinda unsupported by the earlier scenes (like Rose kissing Finn. I assume it was romantic, and if so, shoehorned in.). Many of these postmortems have referred to cut scenes that were informative, so I should go back and watch those on the Blu-Ray.

Also, I simply disagree about his description of Ray's cave. It was not mirrors, it was slices of time, and as such none of the metaphor that he lays out makes sense.

Also, I can;t say how much it bothers me, but from the first showing I saw I continue to find it odd that so few character have so little agency in the story, and so many have none. I suppose that helps build a story of failure, but that's not how I feel when I see it. Success or failure, these are characters being tossed by the tides — forces they are too small to influence much at all. And that is weird.

To be clear, I still liked the film, but nowhere NEARLY as much as I like Force Awakens.

And if everyone who didn’t like it were as nice about it as you the blogosphere would be a better place.

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OK. I read it last week. It's not so much that I disagree wit the main points, it's that I just am not nearly so impressed by the things that were there as he and in some cases I simply disagree VERY much about how successfully it was done (Finn's character development and Casino planet are the prime examples).

Personally, I liked Finn a lot and how they did her. She was different. And though I agree with you on the Casino scene, I also think people expect everything to tie into everything that is Star Wars. In my mind, that scene wasn't perfect but it was still good for what it was. It illustrated to me what some people fight for and how lopsided the galaxy is. It's not just always about the rebels and empire.

More than any of it though, is I just never felt like I was really connecting to the characters very well. I know why they were doing things, mostly; and it made sense, mostly. It just felt kinda distant from me emotionally, and some of it seemed kinda unsupported by the earlier scenes (like Rose kissing Finn. I assume it was romantic, and if so, shoehorned in.). Many of these postmortems have referred to cut scenes that were informative, so I should go back and watch those on the Blu-Ray.

Personally I like the character development overall. I think they might have failed for some places, but overall good. And although people consider the original trilogy to be held as the standard, I never connected with Luke at all until maybe the end of Episode 5 and Episode 6. So I'm going to just keep going and see where the characters take us.

OK. I read it last week. It's not so much that I disagree wit the main points, it's that I just am not nearly so impressed by the things that were there as he and in some cases I simply disagree VERY much about how successfully it was done (Finn's character development and Casino planet are the prime examples).

Personally, I liked Finn a lot and how they did her. She was different.

Eh?

And though I agree with you on the Casino scene, I also think people expect everything to tie into everything that is Star Wars. In my mind, that scene wasn't perfect but it was still good for what it was. It illustrated to me what some people fight for and how lopsided the galaxy is. It's not just always about the rebels and empire.

But it wasn't;t a scene. it was a sequence. Possibly the longest in the movie? I think much more than was needed to convey the idea that the poor and downtrodden dislike the wealthy who only think about them in so much as they exploit and abuse them (even despite American audiences seeming to have the opposite reaction in their own lives). Finn showed immediately in TFA that he was driven by empathy (and fear) I don't think we needed so much time for him to realize that economics can also oppress.

More than any of it though, is I just never felt like I was really connecting to the characters very well. I know why they were doing things, mostly; and it made sense, mostly. It just felt kinda distant from me emotionally, and some of it seemed kinda unsupported by the earlier scenes (like Rose kissing Finn. I assume it was romantic, and if so, shoehorned in.). Many of these postmortems have referred to cut scenes that were informative, so I should go back and watch those on the Blu-Ray.

Personally I like the character development overall. I think they might have failed for some places, but overall good. And although people consider the original trilogy to be held as the standard, I never connected with Luke at all until maybe the end of Episode 5 and Episode 6. So I'm going to just keep going and see where the characters take us.

Agreed. Ep 4 Luke is a whiny exhaustion of a person. It works in the arc of his overall character, but it's tough to watch.

OK. I read it last week. It's not so much that I disagree wit the main points, it's that I just am not nearly so impressed by the things that were there as he and in some cases I simply disagree VERY much about how successfully it was done (Finn's character development and Casino planet are the prime examples).

Personally, I liked Finn a lot and how they did her. She was different.

Eh?

Sorry, in my head I swap Finn and Rey sometimes for some reason. Just swap the names :D

And though I agree with you on the Casino scene, I also think people expect everything to tie into everything that is Star Wars. In my mind, that scene wasn't perfect but it was still good for what it was. It illustrated to me what some people fight for and how lopsided the galaxy is. It's not just always about the rebels and empire.

But it wasn't;t a scene. it was a sequence. Possibly the longest in the movie? I think much more than was needed to convey the idea that the poor and downtrodden dislike the wealthy who only think about them in so much as they exploit and abuse them (even despite American audiences seeming to have the opposite reaction in their own lives). Finn showed immediately in TFA that he was driven by empathy (and fear) I don't think we needed so much time for him to realize that economics can also oppress.

I hear a lot of people say that that entire sequence shouldn't have been in the movie. I disagree. I do agree with you that it could have been shorter, but it does add good substance to the entire movie as well as the universe.

More than any of it though, is I just never felt like I was really connecting to the characters very well. I know why they were doing things, mostly; and it made sense, mostly. It just felt kinda distant from me emotionally, and some of it seemed kinda unsupported by the earlier scenes (like Rose kissing Finn. I assume it was romantic, and if so, shoehorned in.). Many of these postmortems have referred to cut scenes that were informative, so I should go back and watch those on the Blu-Ray.

Personally I like the character development overall. I think they might have failed for some places, but overall good. And although people consider the original trilogy to be held as the standard, I never connected with Luke at all until maybe the end of Episode 5 and Episode 6. So I'm going to just keep going and see where the characters take us.

Agreed. Ep 4 Luke is a whiny exhaustion of a person. It works in the arc of his overall character, but it's tough to watch.

I want to say that I'm not a hardcore star wars fan. I just like the movies for what they are. And I'm always for improving things, but I'm not so zealous that I will condemn an entire move as horrible. I'm not saying you guys are, I've just heard it before.