Fan Communication

Gone are the days when someone like Matt Soell can go on forums and school fools. I fondly recall being on the receiving end on HBO :-)

https://www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2018/7/6/17540382/guild-wars-2-developers-fired-arenanet

And you wonder why all of Bungie’s communication is PR speak these days.

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Only problem is, you can't speak to fans without seeming to pick a fight, even though it may be the opposite of that. But that's pretty much what happened, they picked a fight with these people.

That's why developers like Bungie don't address fans directly--other than not having any time, regardless of what they say or do, it would be taken negatively. They just have to ignore it. If the issue becomes big enough, they address it in an article or the like. But to respond to someone personally will only open up a can of worms.

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I actually appreciate that Bungie employees does answer a lot on Twitter, they just sadly don't tend to give opinions since that leads to articles and angry reddit posts :-p

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I can sort of see both sides on this one.

As a developer, and longtime indie game dev wannabe, I tend to agree that ArenaNet firing over this is overly harsh. It draws a very clear line in the sand for it's devs, and is kind of a nightmare for community management in the long run.

At the same time, calling out someone for their opinion on game dev (as sexist!), where they are going to lengths to be respectful, is pretty harsh too.

Sad when you have high profile examples of miscommunication like this...

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I can sort of see both sides on this one.

Agree.

As a developer, and longtime indie game dev wannabe, I tend to agree that ArenaNet firing over this is overly harsh. It draws a very clear line in the sand for it's devs, and is kind of a nightmare for community management in the long run.

I think the main problem here is that her twitter account mentions that she is a member of the ArenaNet narrative team. When you do something like that you are basically saying you speak for the company which is what probably prompted the firing. It’s ok to tell people you work for some company, but you should make it part of your public identity unless you want to accept the responsibility that comes with being a mouthpiece for the company.

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I can sort of see both sides on this one.

Agree.

As a developer, and longtime indie game dev wannabe, I tend to agree that ArenaNet firing over this is overly harsh. It draws a very clear line in the sand for it's devs, and is kind of a nightmare for community management in the long run.

I think the main problem here is that her twitter account mentions that she is a member of the ArenaNet narrative team. When you do something like that you are basically saying you speak for the company which is what probably prompted the firing. It’s ok to tell people you work for some company, but you should make it part of your public identity unless you want to accept the responsibility that comes with being a mouthpiece for the company.

I mean, the person she lashed out at was replying to her own Twitter thread about a Guild Wars AMA she did. It was relevant commentary provided respectfully in the exact context Twitter is meant for. It was really bizarre.

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They let a harassment group fire their own employees.

This is only going to have a chilling effect on developers being able to talk openly about their craft online, especially for women in game dev.

I'm not touching anything related to ArenaNet from this point forward.

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Price and Fries were acting like a couple of douche-hats, and deserved to get fired.

Price made the whole thing a sexist issue, and lashed out (then mocked) a fan who offered respectful criticism, and who then apologized to her after her unprovoked snark.

Fries pretty much shut down fans' freedom to provide insight or criticism, which is a huge no-no in dev-community relationships. Basically saying "If there's something you don't agree with, keep your mouth shut".

I think this is a whole crap show all around, but those two did deserve to lose their position within the company.

I dunno. People are all turning this into either a "community is a pack of wolves" and "poor women in the gaming industry" stuff when it's a simple case of two people acting like idiots and losing their job because of it.

But what do I know, the devs I follow are far better with their community, and far more open to criticism and positive discourse.

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While her response isn’t exactly admirable (but I also don’t really have a problem with it), the fact that anyone defends it as a fireable offense is asinine, and t’s disappointing that folks think ArenaNet is in the right for doing so.

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While her response isn’t exactly admirable (but I also don’t really have a problem with it), the fact that anyone defends it as a fireable offense is asinine, and t’s disappointing that folks think ArenaNet is in the right for doing so.

To be fair, she says that she doesn't regret it, which shows that she doesn't think losing her job is that big of a deal, and that she obviously didn't take any valuable lesson from this.

I mean, the way Vortech was describing her (and from what I'm seeing online), this isn't an isolated incident, and she's the type of person who is openly hostile and blames white males for all of her personal shortcomings.

I wouldn't want to have someone who does that representing my company, especially if they are presenting it as one that shuts down any sort of criticism.

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The fact that we live in a society where folks automatically assume you speak for a company or represent their values just because you work for them is also disappointing. I am not the company I work for, I have my own set of beliefs and values. Those might align with company values as much as possible, but we don’t live in a world where that’s possible. At a certain point, I just need money to put a roof over my head.

She didn’t say anything destructive or dangerous, she just told a person on the internet to fuck off. Who hasn’t done that?

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The fact that we live in a society where folks automatically assume you speak for a company or represent their values just because you work for them is also disappointing. I am not the company I work for, I have my own set of beliefs and values. Those might align with company values as much as possible, but we don’t live in a world where that’s possible. At a certain point, I just need money to put a roof over my head.

Totally agree. If there's one thing that I've always shaken my head over is the need for people to say "my views are my own, blah blah", but the fact of the matter is that if you work for a company, especially (as t1g3r mentioned above) if you post that company in your bio, you're presenting yourself as a representative, and it's an acknowledgement that you are affecting their bottom line with the things that you say.

She's outspoken, that's fine. Everyone should be free to express themselves. But when you lash out at your community, especially when it's unprovoked, there are bound to be consequences one way or another, even if you put up a disclaimer that the views presented aren't necessarily those of your employer (so why should they take a hit for her?).

She didn’t say anything destructive or dangerous, she just told a person on the internet to fuck off. Who hasn’t done that?

I think the big issue is exposure. Guild Wars 2 is not a niche product. This is a company where a significant number of its users took issue with what these two employees did, and it was made worse by the fact that Price started blocking official Partners who wanted to diffuse the situation. Ya know, people who all had their own Guild Wars followings.

She took the posts from what could have been chalked up to a bad day, and exacerbated it in a way that is typical of people with her mindset. Again, she says that she doesn't regret it (and made a bridge-burning jab at ArenaNet), so the firing probably wasn't unwarranted.

But whatevs, what's done is done. End of the day, ArenaNet saved more face than the damage incurred, so they did what was best for the company (as excessive as it might seem to us, people outside of that community). In a week, nobody will care, and she can go back to job hunting in peace.

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But whatevs, what's done is done. End of the day, ArenaNet saved more face than the damage incurred, so they did what was best for the company (as excessive as it might seem to us, people outside of that community). In a week, nobody will care, and she can go back to job hunting in peace.

They may have saved more face with the gamers, but I think they shot themselves in the foot with developers and their employees.

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The fact that we live in a society where folks automatically assume you speak for a company or represent their values just because you work for them is also disappointing. I am not the company I work for, I have my own set of beliefs and values. Those might align with company values as much as possible, but we don’t live in a world where that’s possible. At a certain point, I just need money to put a roof over my head.

She didn’t say anything destructive or dangerous, she just told a person on the internet to fuck off. Who hasn’t done that?

That'd be fine if the person deserved the textual reprimand. However, this person was a prominent content creator in their community and his commentary was written in what I thought was the most respectful way possible. I'm not saying she deserved to get fired, necessarily, but what the two of them did was wildly out of hand.

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Shit.

I know Jessica. And she’s part of Bungie history. She was a big part of the I Love Bees ARG as a player (Phaedra). That’s how I met her and she was one of the people I counted as a friend by the end of that ARG. She was just starting out in the world trying to get a job and leave home and needed a computer (she can break them with just a glance. What’s the opposite of a superpower?) so I sent her my Titanium PowerBook (I thought it was a loaner, but apparently she didn’t :) )

I saw the comments and jokes about this story on twitter, but not any of the details of what happened until now. I didn’t know it was her. I follow her on twitter, but have her “muffled” so I need to tap on a message to see the contents. I have always felt bad about it , but really it’s because twitter is not the right medium for her. She writes voluminously and tweets the same way. Measured in inches she would account for 40% of my feed if I didn’t. Plus most of it is about how shitty my race and gender is being and it takes an emotional toll to read that stuff and be lumped in.

I suppose none of this is interesting to anyone except maybe chappy, but I don’t know what else to do with it so I will leave it here.

As to the actual point of the post, this seems different than the old school bungie shoebeatings because it wasn’t on the dev’s forums, or even on a forum dedicated to the game. Twitter is a weird mix of personal platform and social space. I personally know Jessica has always wanted to control the conversation “on” her part of twitter, and I have never thought that could be totally effective, also can see how this is a bit like standing up from the audience to disagree with a presenter. I also see how this is like talking to someone else standing in the same crowd you are standing in. Like I said, twitter is weird.

The contrarian streamer seemed to be respectful in his disagreement in the tweets I can find (but maybe I’m missing parts and history. This isn’t my corner of the internet.). And I certainly don’t think you need to be a woman to have people disagree with you on Twitter.

No matter what, 2 people should not be fired because people disagreed relatively calmly and civil on personal accounts whether Twitter has an implicit invitation to conversation baked into the medium. That’s crazy and a scary level of disrespect for your employees.

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Shit.

I know Jessica. And she’s part of Bungie history. She was a big part of the I Love Bees ARG as a player (Phaedra). That’s how I met her and she was one of the people I counted as a friend by the end of that ARG. She was just starting out in the world trying to get a job and leave home and needed a computer (she can break them with just a glance. What’s the opposite of a superpower?) so I sent her my Titanium PowerBook (I thought it was a loaner, but apparently she didn’t :) )

I saw the comments and jokes about this story on twitter, but not any of the details of what happened until now. I didn’t know it was her. I follow her on twitter, but have her “muffled” so I need to tap on a message to see the contents. I have always felt bad about it , but really it’s because twitter is not the right medium for her. She writes voluminously and tweets the same way. Measured in inches she would account for 40% of my feed if I didn’t. Plus most of it is about how shitty my race and gender is being and it takes an emotional toll to read that stuff and be lumped in.

I suppose none of this is interesting to anyone except maybe chappy, but I don’t know what else to do with it so I will leave it here.

As to the actual point of the post, this seems different than the old school bungie shoebeatings because it wasn’t on the dev’s forums, or even on a forum dedicated to the game. Twitter is a weird mix of personal platform and social space. I personally know Jessica has always wanted to control the conversation “on” her part of twitter, and I have never thought that could be totally effective, also can see how this is a bit like standing up from the audience to disagree with a presenter. I also see how this is like talking to someone else standing in the same crowd you are standing in. Like I said, twitter is weird.

The contrarian streamer seemed to be respectful in his disagreement in the tweets I can find (but maybe I’m missing parts and history. This isn’t my corner of the internet.). And I certainly don’t think you need to be a woman to have people disagree with you on Twitter.

No matter what, 2 people should not be fired because people disagreed relatively calmly and civil on personal accounts whether Twitter has an implicit invitation to conversation baked into the medium. That’s crazy and a scary level of disrespect for your employees.

Firstly, I don't think Twitter is a personal bubble platform unless you make your Twitter private. The whole point design is around layered bubbles of followers that intertwine and interact. You can stand up on a podium of importance by having a bunch of followers, but at the end of the day everyone has the same access to everyone.

Also, again, not saying firing was the right move, but when your employee lashed out at genuine commentary and wrongfully (that's the important bit) blamed it on his gender...which is a large portion of your player base...and doesn't seem to understand what went wrong?

Yeesh.

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While I’ve not seen all of the context regarding the related gender considerations; the initial response that started it was patronizing and detatched from the actual comment itself (as I read them and reread them) and presented in a manner that is not normally how most such interactions are conducted with male developers. Coded language plays a big part in these interactions and people unaccustomed to being on the receiving end of such language can easily overlook what someone else may consider a slight.

Intended or not, intention doesn’t change the result. I mean, no one would talk to Jeff Kaplan like that. Though he’d just roast you anyway.

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While I’ve not seen all of the context regarding the related gender considerations; the initial response that started it was patronizing and detached from the actual comment itself (as I read them and reread them) and presented in a manner that is not normally how most such interactions are conducted with male developers.

See, I gotta disagree (with most of what you said) here. I thought it was the most respectful possibly way to deliver feedback. Which, to an extent, you're right! It's not normally how interactions with male developers go. The language used here actually feels to me like he was trying his best not to step on toes, like walking on egg shells. If that was the case, judging by what happened, it feels like the language was justified? (even though it didn't help anything, in the end)

And though super anecdotal, I ran this past several female friends of mine (all in the gaming/geek community) and none of them saw any issue whatsoever.

I feel bad she lost her job, I really do. This is a crappy situation all around...but it sounds to me like she's got a chip on her shoulder and she's projecting. Those types of issues severely impact people's function in life and we're seeing one possible end result of such issues.

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Not to bee too pedantic, but special treatment itself, the treatment of women as too delicate to take direct criticism, is patronizing and something that a lot of women I know dislike in criticism I previously provide them. Hence it being nebulous. But the phrasing, if it were directed at me, would likely be taken as condescending at best. Especially when one suggests that a disagreement with the core supposition of a statement is an over-emphaitically-minor disagreement.

Regardless of external history I would still consider the gender-coded language choice to be questionable. And a reaction to it definitely not a firing offense regardless. I won’t go so far to suggest a male developer would have been let off more lightly, but the volatility in gaming against women in general is still pretty rampant and it sets a worrisome precident.

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Not to bee too pedantic, but special treatment itself, the treatment of women as too delicate to take direct criticism, is patronizing and something that a lot of women I know dislike in criticism I previously provide them. Hence it being nebulous. But the phrasing, if it were directed at me, would likely be taken as condescending at best. Especially when one suggests that a disagreement with the core supposition of a statement is an over-emphaitically-minor disagreement.

Regardless of external history I would still consider the gender-coded language choice to be questionable. And a reaction to it definitely not a firing offense regardless. I won’t go so far to suggest a male developer would have been let off more lightly, but the volatility in gaming against women in general is still pretty rampant and it sets a worrisome precident.

See I suppose I empathize; many of the women in my life up until quite recently implicitly trained me to be this way. Just as there are plenty of women who hate being spoken to with overly cautious language there are also plenty who almost require it, otherwise they "go off the handle." And frankly, this dichotomy isn't exclusive to women; men are also like this. Humans are like this. (There is of course the grey-scale gradient between the two in reality)

And I'll also point out that a man was fired over this too...so...I don't know if we can look at this through the lens of "how would a man/woman be treated in a situation." The situation is a bit unique.

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And frankly, this dichotomy isn't exclusive to women; men are also like this. Humans are like this.

Ahh, yes. This is a very important consideration. This is why I tend to advocate for plain language in criticism. Clarity is the utmost and dressing it up (in sugar or spice) is generally a bad way to approach. But in that same regard of balancing so should ones empathy.

And I'll also point out that a man was fired over this too...so...I don't know if we can look at this through the lens of "how would a man/woman be treated in a situation." The situation is a bit unique.

From what I had heard it seemed more like the firing on him wasn't for "the same situation" so much as "all parties involved." Carpet bombing, if you will. Because the situation isn't a man responding to criticism on twitter as the catalyst to the event I would agree that it isn't something easy to compare.

It will always be a long way for humans and communication. I actually only responded again because your use of the word empathy. Made me think of a recent TED Talk (How technology can fight extremism and online harassment - Yasmin Green, if you're interested) discussed using machine learning to contextually proofread and provide feedback on how comments online might be taken in and out of context. It's from the latter portion of the talk. It seems like it may have helped here.

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And frankly, this dichotomy isn't exclusive to women; men are also like this. Humans are like this.

Ahh, yes. This is a very important consideration. This is why I tend to advocate for plain language in criticism. Clarity is the utmost and dressing it up (in sugar or spice) is generally a bad way to approach. But in that same regard of balancing so should ones empathy.

And I'll also point out that a man was fired over this too...so...I don't know if we can look at this through the lens of "how would a man/woman be treated in a situation." The situation is a bit unique.

From what I had heard it seemed more like the firing on him wasn't for "the same situation" so much as "all parties involved." Carpet bombing, if you will. Because the situation isn't a man responding to criticism on twitter as the catalyst to the event I would agree that it isn't something easy to compare.

It will always be a long way for humans and communication. I actually only responded again because your use of the word empathy. Made me think of a recent TED Talk (How technology can fight extremism and online harassment - Yasmin Green, if you're interested) discussed using machine learning to contextually proofread and provide feedback on how comments online might be taken in and out of context. It's from the latter portion of the talk. It seems like it may have helped here.

Appreciate the link, will take a look for sure! I'm also an advocate for clear, open communication. I'm simply noting that I'm historically familiar with the gut instinct to pad everything I say with nice fluffy white pillows. While I speak I'm always evaluating how what I'm saying can be taken and trying to point those things out if I think that they might think I mean something different. It's not as efficient as being able to iterate and revise on my thoughts until I speak a well designed sentence, but at least it's self-aware.

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Firstly, I don't think Twitter is a personal bubble platform unless you make your Twitter private. The whole point design is around layered bubbles of followers that intertwine and interact. You can stand up on a podium of importance by having a bunch of followers, but at the end of the day everyone has the same access to everyone.

That’s fine, but that’s not a rule that’s baked into the platform anywhere. That’s an expectation that you have formed based on how you and people you choose to follow choose to see it. When I joined twitter it called itself a micro-blog. I(“@ Replies were invented by the users not by the design that you reference) Isn’t a blog a personal platform? When did it stop being a blog? Because they added replies? Blogs allow replies. Hell, I could edit other people’s comments on my blog if I wanted to. Lots of companies and web sites use it as a weird RSS feed or a pr wire. It’s not all discussion. Twitter sure as hell Is not going to tell us, they are too busy courting celebs (who absolutely do get to treat it as a broadcast medium, not a discussion medium and have a very different type of access), verifying nazis, and breaking third party application APIs to take the time to try to address behavior on the platform.

So, I say “I don’t know”. It is swimming upstream to try, but I also don’t see why someone can’t block whomever the hell they want.

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Firstly, I don't think Twitter is a personal bubble platform unless you make your Twitter private. The whole point design is around layered bubbles of followers that intertwine and interact. You can stand up on a podium of importance by having a bunch of followers, but at the end of the day everyone has the same access to everyone.

That’s fine, but that’s not a rule that’s baked into the platform anywhere. That’s an expectation that you have formed based on how you and people you choose to follow choose to see it. When I joined twitter it called itself a micro-blog. I(“@ Replies were invented by the users not by the design that you reference) Isn’t a blog a personal platform? When did it stop being a blog? Because they added replies? Blogs allow replies. Hell, I could edit other people’s comments on my blog if I wanted to. Lots of companies and web sites use it as a weird RSS feed or a pr wire. It’s not all discussion. Twitter sure as hell Is not going to tell us, they are too busy courting celebs (who absolutely do get to treat it as a broadcast medium, not a discussion medium and have a very different type of access), verifying nazis, and breaking third party application APIs to take the time to try to address behavior on the platform.

That's fair. I only started using Twitter a few months ago and that was the impression I received. Twitter appears to be a platform for micro-discussions. When your original posts have the same character length constraints as your replies, it seems to pull the One closer to the Many, if you know what I mean.

So, I say “I don’t know”. It is swimming upstream to try, but I also don’t see why someone can’t block whomever the hell they want.

Twitter lets you block people, no?

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