https://twitter.com/bthorne/status/1059236386182578176

Read the whole thread. It's pretty interesting.

That's pretty funny, not in a "haha" way, but in a "how 'bout that" way. I'm ignorant and curious when it comes to game dev in this regard but how do they test these type of things? It seems like "we" played most of the encounters "wrong"...how did nobody internally play it like "us"? There sure seem to be a lot of these oops moments with Destiny.

That's pretty funny, not in a "haha" way, but in a "how 'bout that" way. I'm ignorant and curious when it comes to game dev in this regard but how do they test these type of things? It seems like "we" played most of the encounters "wrong"...how did nobody internally play it like "us"? There sure seem to be a lot of these oops moments with Destiny.

When you are building something a certain way, it's very easy to then test it the way you built it. That is the whole reason why you usually have a separate testing department than the developers or why you have someone else look at your paper after you write it. But even testers are told "this is how the encounter goes, try and break it" but you only have so many testers and when it's released it tested against thousands of encounters so... I can't even imagine how hard it would be to make raids cheese proof.

That's pretty funny, not in a "haha" way, but in a "how 'bout that" way. I'm ignorant and curious when it comes to game dev in this regard but how do they test these type of things? It seems like "we" played most of the encounters "wrong"...how did nobody internally play it like "us"? There sure seem to be a lot of these oops moments with Destiny.

When you are building something a certain way, it's very easy to then test it the way you built it. That is the whole reason why you usually have a separate testing department than the developers or why you have someone else look at your paper after you write it. But even testers are told "this is how the encounter goes, try and break it" but you only have so many testers and when it's released it tested against thousands of encounters so... I can't even imagine how hard it would be to make raids cheese proof.

I would like to offer my service for future content. Bungie, I am a good candidate for when you ask "ok, how would the dumbest guardian approach this?"

https://twitter.com/bthorne/status/1059236386182578176

Read the whole thread. It's pretty interesting.

It's interesting, and also somewhat illuminating for me personally, given that I tend to disagree with almost every conclusion he describes. Some of his points are clearly and obviously true (for example, the fact that players will find ways to get places within a space whenever possible). But all his other points, such as how thrusting more responsibility on 1 player = "not fun" for the rest of the team, or how certain mechanics that only pop up after a failure (like the oversoul appearing after someone dies) are inherently bad... I think his takeaways on these points begin to explain why I personally feel like the raids are getting progressively worse.

Having certain players take a "lead" role in raid encounters was fantastic. It allowed players who were more experienced or more skilled in certain aspects to lead and direct a team of less experienced players to success. It was a path for new raiders to participate and get a feel for the encounters without being overwhelmed by a tsunami of mechanics. Then, as those players become more familiar with an encounter, they can graduate to more of a "lead" role.

Killing all the remaining ads after the Deathsinger was also fun... it was a nice way to "vent" after the stressful race against the clock that proceeded it. Plus, it was a great way to build up supers and collect ammo before entering the final encounter of the raid.

His points about players cheesing the Bridge is also a strange one (by which I mean, it is strange that anyone ever cheesed the bridge because it was actually slower and more difficult than simply doing the encounter normally. I can't explain that one).

The abyss is a fantastic encounter. It is fun and exciting every single time. The fact that a small portion of the player base learned how to cheese it is, IMO, fine. Not a problem. When I compare it to more recent iterations on a similar style of encounter (such as the chase to deliver Riven's heart at the end of Last Wish <- Last Wish spoiler), the Abyss remains fun and exciting 4 years later, while the latter example is a pain in the ass that I would skip every time if I could.

I’m with you. I never felt like I was letting someone else do the work if I wasn’t running Sword and just shooting a rocket instead. Or if I wasn’t running Relic on VoG.

I also strongly disagree about the Oversoul. Making it happen at the end of every DPS phase felt like adding a mechanic just to add it. It’s not like it’s challenging, but I thought it was a neat recovery mechanic to save a run.

I’m totally okay with the more involved designs they’ve been doing since King’s Fall where every player must understand what’s happening for every role, but I hope to see a return of a more classic style “fun-first” raid like VoG or Crota. I miss doing those raids every week and it just feeling like a cool hangout. There’s so many necessary callouts in the modern raids that that sort of session is impossible. Once I beat Riven, I fully expect to just never do it again. It is literally the least fun encounter I’ve ever done in Destiny.

Once I beat Riven, I fully expect to just never do it again. It is literally the least fun encounter I’ve ever done in Destiny.

The cheese is your friend :)

I did 3 LFG raids last week. All 3 groups blew right through Riven. The last group I ran with beat the whole raid in under an hour, with no wipes. Makes the whole thing a lot more fun and pain-free.

His points about players cheesing the Bridge is also a strange one (by which I mean, it is strange that anyone ever cheesed the bridge because it was actually slower and more difficult than simply doing the encounter normally. I can't explain that one).

The abyss is a fantastic encounter. It is fun and exciting every single time. The fact that a small portion of the player base learned how to cheese it is, IMO, fine. Not a problem. When I compare it to more recent iterations on a similar style of encounter (such as the chase to deliver Riven's heart at the end of Last Wish <- Last Wish spoiler), the Abyss remains fun and exciting 4 years later, while the latter example is a pain in the ass that I would skip every time if I could.

These encounters weren't soft on the new players (especially with the punishing level requirement [remember how Crota was 2 levels higher than the cap itself?!]). This leads to sherpas preferring to play it safer over more fun, lest it devolve into a frustration-fest when you keep failing inches from the end only to start all over again.

Having certain players take a "lead" role in raid encounters was fantastic. It allowed players who were more experienced or more skilled in certain aspects to lead and direct a team of less experienced players to success. It was a path for new raiders to participate and get a feel for the encounters without being overwhelmed by a tsunami of mechanics. Then, as those players become more familiar with an encounter, they can graduate to more of a "lead" role.

It's weird. I agree the avalanche of mechanics is bad for a newbie, but I strongly disagree with your conclusion. I think most of the confusion derives from how people usually explain the encounter, i.e. explaining the strategy instead of explaining the mechanics first and THEN how to tackle them.

What they need to do is give the testers a goal:

You are running this raid as efficiently as possible in order to get gear drops. How would you do it? No limits. Because after a point that’s how people played it.

His points about players cheesing the Bridge is also a strange one (by which I mean, it is strange that anyone ever cheesed the bridge because it was actually slower and more difficult than simply doing the encounter normally. I can't explain that one).

The abyss is a fantastic encounter. It is fun and exciting every single time. The fact that a small portion of the player base learned how to cheese it is, IMO, fine. Not a problem. When I compare it to more recent iterations on a similar style of encounter (such as the chase to deliver Riven's heart at the end of Last Wish <- Last Wish spoiler), the Abyss remains fun and exciting 4 years later, while the latter example is a pain in the ass that I would skip every time if I could.

These encounters weren't soft on the new players (especially with the punishing level requirement [remember how Crota was 2 levels higher than the cap itself?!]). This leads to sherpas preferring to play it safer over more fun, lest it devolve into a frustration-fest when you keep failing inches from the end only to start all over again.

Yes, that initial level gap was brutal. But in a sense, that was also the challenge of the encounter (I'm less prone to defend the level gap when talking about later encounters, but for the abyss I thought they struck a decent balance).

The actual mechanic of the Abyss can be explained in 15-20 seconds. What makes it challenging is execution. There are loads of little tricks and strategies that you can build up as you replay it over and over. So experience is certainly valuable. But there isn't a huge conceptual download required for a new player to "get" the encounter.

Having certain players take a "lead" role in raid encounters was fantastic. It allowed players who were more experienced or more skilled in certain aspects to lead and direct a team of less experienced players to success. It was a path for new raiders to participate and get a feel for the encounters without being overwhelmed by a tsunami of mechanics. Then, as those players become more familiar with an encounter, they can graduate to more of a "lead" role.

It's weird. I agree the avalanche of mechanics is bad for a newbie, but I strongly disagree with your conclusion. I think most of the confusion derives from how people usually explain the encounter, i.e. explaining the strategy instead of explaining the mechanics first and THEN how to tackle them.

I think you're absolutely right that there is a bit of an art to explaining raid encounters, and many players don't have it worked out.
As far as my personal conclusion, that was my experience through the early D1 raids. It's certainly a "YMMV" situation. I like thee way I could walk into an encounter for the first time, and someone who knew the raid could say "this is your job for this encounter". I could then focus on mastering my own little corner of the encounter, largely oblivious to what everyone else was doing. I never felt overwhelmed. And once I mastered my role, my curiosity would make me think "I wonder what it's like to cover the other side of the room?". Over time and repeated runs, I would eventually master every position, and then I'd feel perfectly comfortable leading a group of new players, directing them each on how to handle their specific roles, what kind of gear they might want to use, etc.

I find that the newer raids are too often dependent on every player understanding the entire encounter perfectly. There often no room for 1 player to make a mistake without causing a wipe for the whole group. My problem with this is that it raises the skill-floor that's required to make it through the raids up to a level that I worry is too high for the community at large. I could say with confidence to most D1 players "Your raid group can make it through VoG... it just might take some groups more time and practice than others". I don't think that can be said for Riven. Or even the vanilla D2 raids. I think they've moved up to a level of complexity and are demanding of perfection in a way that puts them out of reach for a lot of players out there.

https://twitter.com/bthorne/status/1059236386182578176

Read the whole thread. It's pretty interesting.

It's interesting, and also somewhat illuminating for me personally, given that I tend to disagree with almost every conclusion he describes. Some of his points are clearly and obviously true (for example, the fact that players will find ways to get places within a space whenever possible). But all his other points, such as how thrusting more responsibility on 1 player = "not fun" for the rest of the team, or how certain mechanics that only pop up after a failure (like the oversoul appearing after someone dies) are inherently bad... I think his takeaways on these points begin to explain why I personally feel like the raids are getting progressively worse.

Having certain players take a "lead" role in raid encounters was fantastic. It allowed players who were more experienced or more skilled in certain aspects to lead and direct a team of less experienced players to success. It was a path for new raiders to participate and get a feel for the encounters without being overwhelmed by a tsunami of mechanics. Then, as those players become more familiar with an encounter, they can graduate to more of a "lead" role.

Fantastic for that player, perhaps. They got to show their skills, they had the opportunity get even better at a challenging task, and they were in demand. That lead player wasn't leading anyone really, because most of the time no one else followed their lead. In most runs I ever did there was always someone who was recognized as the best at sword running, and they did it because most people WANTED them to do it because it was less stressful on everyone (and less fun), but we wants our lootses. I ran the sword once and severely tested the patience of five people (I'm grateful, but I wasn't about to ask for more opportunities in order to get better).

Killing all the remaining ads after the Deathsinger was also fun... it was a nice way to "vent" after the stressful race against the clock that proceeded it. Plus, it was a great way to build up supers and collect ammo before entering the final encounter of the raid.

I agree with you there.

Having certain players take a "lead" role in raid encounters was fantastic. It allowed players who were more experienced or more skilled in certain aspects to lead and direct a team of less experienced players to success. It was a path for new raiders to participate and get a feel for the encounters without being overwhelmed by a tsunami of mechanics. Then, as those players become more familiar with an encounter, they can graduate to more of a "lead" role.

Fantastic for that player, perhaps. They got to show their skills, they had the opportunity get even better at a challenging task, and they were in demand. That lead player wasn't leading anyone really, because most of the time no one else followed their lead. In most runs I ever did there was always someone who was recognized as the best at sword running, and they did it because most people WANTED them to do it because it was less stressful on everyone (and less fun), but we wants our lootses. I ran the sword once and severely tested the patience of five people (I'm grateful, but I wasn't about to ask for more opportunities in order to get better).

The crota encounter isn't the best example of what I was trying to describe. I totally agree that the sword-wielder was a particularly stressful role that did split the player base. However, I would still say that it was preferable to the raid team's current philosophy. If the Crota fight were made today, they'd likely require every player to take turns running the sword, or they'd force a certain player at random to take the sword. I'd much rather have the player who wants to run the sword be the one taking that responsibility.

I ran the sword once and severely tested the patience of five people (I'm grateful, but I wasn't about to ask for more opportunities in order to get better).

I think you’re projecting a bit there. I mean, I wasn’t there, I don’t know how anyone felt. And I certainly know what it feels like to be the weak link and feel like I’m holding the group back, and it’s not a good feeling.

But I think maybe you underestimate this community’s patience. There’s very few people here that wouldn’t willingly let you run sword as much as you wanted to learn that role. Again, I know that’s a sort of anxiety inducing thing to do—it’s hard to ask for people’s time in that way. But most people here don’t mind.

I get what you’re saying, though. Being able to actively avoid doing the challenging role undoubtedly leads to most people doing so, even if they want to learn it, because it becomes a higher pressure situation than it otherwise might be.

I ran the sword once and severely tested the patience of five people (I'm grateful, but I wasn't about to ask for more opportunities in order to get better).

I think you’re projecting a bit there. I mean, I wasn’t there, I don’t know how anyone felt. And I certainly know what it feels like to be the weak link and feel like I’m holding the group back, and it’s not a good feeling.

But I think maybe you underestimate this community’s patience. There’s very few people here that wouldn’t willingly let you run sword as much as you wanted to learn that role. Again, I know that’s a sort of anxiety inducing thing to do—it’s hard to ask for people’s time in that way. But most people here don’t mind.

I get what you’re saying, though. Being able to actively avoid doing the challenging role undoubtedly leads to most people doing so, even if they want to learn it, because it becomes a higher pressure situation than it otherwise might be.

I agree. And even if I take the most pessimistic view possible, I come down in favor of a Crota-style encounter over something akin to a Riven-style encounter.

Let's say I'm a newbie, running Crota with an LFG group of Randos. I'll be far more comfortable asking if I can try running the sword, knowing that if I crash and burn I can say "thanks for letting me try" and hand the responsibility over to someone who knows what they're doing. Compare that to Riven. Let's say I'm new, and I just can't figure out a certain callout mechanic. Well now I'm holding back the entire group, and there's no way around it. That is a far more stressful situation, and one that is more likely to create impatience and frustration within the group.

The crota encounter isn't the best example of what I was trying to describe. I totally agree that the sword-wielder was a particularly stressful role that did split the player base. However, I would still say that it was preferable to the raid team's current philosophy. If the Crota fight were made today, they'd likely require every player to take turns running the sword, or they'd force a certain player at random to take the sword. I'd much rather have the player who wants to run the sword be the one taking that responsibility.

I don't think their philosophy is quite as rigid as he suggests (he's also one member of a large team, and Twitter is an awful medium) It seems to me like now we have a good mix of encounters that allow both player allocation and promote player participation/understanding. I like getting people involved - I think a lot of people are afraid to speak up or ask to do different roles. I hate arguing about who gets to do what (it makes me feel like arguing with my siblings when we were kids about who gets what seat in the car), so sometimes you just go with the flow.

Not every encounter needs the same basic philosophy. I think Last Wish's first 4 encounters are great, and the 5th is totally wild (I think it's fine, but hating it seems totally reasonable). That's a pretty good great/wild ratio to me. The raid design team does not worry me.

To clarify, “done” usually means content complete. That is, stop adding stuff, fix the bugs, finalize text and localization, etc. You can’t keep making changes after a certain point because then the game will never ship.

This gets lost in translation from creator to consumer, even I forget it sometimes in a moment. While it is quite fun and interesting to get to know the thinking that created the Crota Raid, it is this point right here that is the ultimate WHY. Not just for this, but for everything video game creation done effectively. Once the beta deadline is done, you literately get locked out to adding anything else. To fix a bug often means going to your lead, who unlocks that one thing for you to update with the bug fix, then when done, it gets locked.

I find that the newer raids are too often dependent on every player understanding the entire encounter perfectly. There often no room for 1 player to make a mistake without causing a wipe for the whole group. My problem with this is that it raises the skill-floor that's required to make it through the raids up to a level that I worry is too high for the community at large. I could say with confidence to most D1 players "Your raid group can make it through VoG... it just might take some groups more time and practice than others". I don't think that can be said for Riven. Or even the vanilla D2 raids. I think they've moved up to a level of complexity and are demanding of perfection in a way that puts them out of reach for a lot of players out there.

I can completely agree here. It does feel like you need to understand the WHOLE thing, which is not bad or good really (depending on player knowledge etc), whereas you had a singular role in each encounter before. I did feel I could run each raid in D1 with different people each time and complete it. Not at all in D2. I feel like I need the same crew, so we have the same thoughts etc.

- No text -

I find that the newer raids are too often dependent on every player understanding the entire encounter perfectly. There often no room for 1 player to make a mistake without causing a wipe for the whole group. My problem with this is that it raises the skill-floor that's required to make it through the raids up to a level that I worry is too high for the community at large. I could say with confidence to most D1 players "Your raid group can make it through VoG... it just might take some groups more time and practice than others". I don't think that can be said for Riven. Or even the vanilla D2 raids. I think they've moved up to a level of complexity and are demanding of perfection in a way that puts them out of reach for a lot of players out there.

I can completely agree here. It does feel like you need to understand the WHOLE thing, which is not bad or good really (depending on player knowledge etc), whereas you had a singular role in each encounter before. I did feel I could run each raid in D1 with different people each time and complete it. Not at all in D2. I feel like I need the same crew, so we have the same thoughts etc.

Eh, I think folks sometimes overthink that aspect. I’ve been lucky enough to raid on two platforms with multiple groups of people. It’s nice to have a consistent team to make things easier, but the raids aren’t that difficult in the end. I’ve had people try and lecture me while doing Leviathan after a year for not equipping the “right” super or gear, or not doing things correctly. Stuff like stacking up on the far right door in the throne room. Sure, that makes things easy. It’s also boring and totally unnecessary. I hate raiding with people that only care about efficiency.

That’s why I liked the raid lair prestige modes, at least in principal. It was a little bit of that old feeling of doing Croat with only Necrochasms. We don’t see much of that anymore, and I do think a lot of that is because of raids being designed to require more precision and it’s jist not as fun to goof off in them because they feel much higher pressure.

But, in any case, I don’t think even the Last Wish needs a consisten crew to be on the same wavelength. It’s just more tedious and time consuming to explain your wavelength to the new player, even if that player knows the encounter. I saw you all dealing with it last week. Okay, what do you call these 16 distinct symbols? How do you number these things or call out those things? It’s a mess.

I like the challenge of figuring it out. That aspect of Riven was really great. The execution of it is tedious and not fun though.

I like the challenge of figuring it out. That aspect of Riven was really great. The execution of it is tedious and not fun though.

This is how I feel about Riven herself and Val Kilmer. They are just too much. Other than those, I think both Spire of Stars and Last Wish are pretty well balanced.

In fact, the only trouble (read 'lack of fun') I've had with Spire of Stars (before the final encounter) was running with blueberries who would rather cycle the ball counter-clockwise. Gives me chills just to think about it. Those monsters.

Once I beat Riven, I fully expect to just never do it again. It is literally the least fun encounter I’ve ever done in Destiny.

The cheese is your friend :)

I did 3 LFG raids last week. All 3 groups blew right through Riven. The last group I ran with beat the whole raid in under an hour, with no wipes. Makes the whole thing a lot more fun and pain-free.

And what if I want to do it for real my first time? This is the pain of waiting: the encounters are ruined. That's fine if you've already figured them out, but not if you haven't :-(

Once I beat Riven, I fully expect to just never do it again. It is literally the least fun encounter I’ve ever done in Destiny.

The cheese is your friend :)

I did 3 LFG raids last week. All 3 groups blew right through Riven. The last group I ran with beat the whole raid in under an hour, with no wipes. Makes the whole thing a lot more fun and pain-free.

And what if I want to do it for real my first time? This is the pain of waiting: the encounters are ruined. That's fine if you've already figured them out, but not if you haven't :-(

Totally just my own opinion here, but for me the Riven encounter isn’t worth the effort of doing it “properly”. It isn’t fun for me. It isn’t challenging or exciting or daunting in a way that makes me say “this is tough but it’s going to feel so good when I beat it!”. Don’t take my word for it, because it’s utterly subjective. But for me, Riven is Destiny gameplay at its worst. Which is not bad, because it’s still Destiny :) It just doesn’t highlife any of the elements of the game that I enjoy.

https://twitter.com/bthorne/status/1059236386182578176

Read the whole thread. It's pretty interesting.

It's interesting, and also somewhat illuminating for me personally, given that I tend to disagree with almost every conclusion he describes. Some of his points are clearly and obviously true (for example, the fact that players will find ways to get places within a space whenever possible).

Disagree- There's a tendency for some game designers to design an encounter in such a way that their intended solution is "right" and any other solution is a cheese/exploit, when most of the time it's just the players exercising their creativity.

I'm sad that Bungie patched out so many cool way to beat Raid bosses with kill volumes and soft barriers.

Having certain players take a "lead" role in raid encounters was fantastic. It allowed players who were more experienced or more skilled in certain aspects to lead and direct a team of less experienced players to success. It was a path for new raiders to participate and get a feel for the encounters without being overwhelmed by a tsunami of mechanics. Then, as those players become more familiar with an encounter, they can graduate to more of a "lead" role.

Agree- Requiring every player be good at every role is stressful, and diminishes the potential for growth and replayability. Someone should have the ability to say "I'm good at X and not Y" and the group is able to work around that.

Killing all the remaining ads after the Deathsinger was also fun... it was a nice way to "vent" after the stressful race against the clock that proceeded it. Plus, it was a great way to build up supers and collect ammo before entering the final encounter of the raid.

I'm sorry, what?

All I ever heard from anyone about this was how much it sucked. Especially on hard mode, where clean-up duty was required to be performed by anyone who hadn't died, and took forever while the rest of the fireteam twiddled their thumbs.

It sounds like you're retroactively trying to explain this away as a good thing because it somehow masks the fact that the pacing between encounters for CE is actually terrible compared to VoG.

His points about players cheesing the Bridge is also a strange one (by which I mean, it is strange that anyone ever cheesed the bridge because it was actually slower and more difficult than simply doing the encounter normally. I can't explain that one).

Slower, yes. More Difficult? No. Lots of people don't have the patience for the strangers in their LFG fireteam dying over and over as they learn the encounter, hence placing all the requirements for success on one competent person who knows how to cheese.

The abyss is a fantastic encounter. It is fun and exciting every single time. The fact that a small portion of the player base learned how to cheese it is, IMO, fine. Not a problem. When I compare it to more recent iterations on a similar style of encounter (such as the chase to deliver Riven's heart at the end of Last Wish <- Last Wish spoiler), the Abyss remains fun and exciting 4 years later, while the latter example is a pain in the ass that I would skip every time if I could.

That's interesting to hear that. The final Last Wish encounter looks like the best part of that raid.

---

After watching the race to World's first for Last Wish, I wrote up a big post that I wanted to discuss with everyone who was okay with spoilers about the encounters of LW, but never got around to finishing it. My big gripe is that LW feels SUPER uncreative, to the point where a lot of the encounters are just mixing and matching of other raid encounters. Actually, the last raid encounter I found to be not guilty of this was the Zamboni.

After watching the race to World's first for Last Wish, I wrote up a big post that I wanted to discuss with everyone who was okay with spoilers about the encounters of LW, but never got around to finishing it. My big gripe is that LW feels SUPER uncreative, to the point where a lot of the encounters are just mixing and matching of other raid encounters. Actually, the last raid encounter I found to be not guilty of this was the Zamboni.

It's a shame, because Eater of Worlds had the best encounter in all of Destiny raids IMO (quantum mine defusal).

I am a little tired of the "boss in invincible, do a thing to make it vulnerable, burn, repeat". That is very old at this point, and there has to be some better way of handling it. Bungie did it with Skolas, so it's not impossible to design an encounter that isn't centered around burn windows.

https://twitter.com/bthorne/status/1059236386182578176

Read the whole thread. It's pretty interesting.

It's interesting, and also somewhat illuminating for me personally, given that I tend to disagree with almost every conclusion he describes. Some of his points are clearly and obviously true (for example, the fact that players will find ways to get places within a space whenever possible).

Disagree- There's a tendency for some game designers to design an encounter in such a way that their intended solution is "right" and any other solution is a cheese/exploit, when most of the time it's just the players exercising their creativity.

I'm sad that Bungie patched out so many cool way to beat Raid bosses with kill volumes and soft barriers.

I should clarify. I was agreeing with the designer’s comment that players absolutely will find ways to reach any and all places that are possible for them to reach, and use that to their advantage whenever possible. I don’t agree with his apparent position that this is necessarily a problem.

Having certain players take a "lead" role in raid encounters was fantastic. It allowed players who were more experienced or more skilled in certain aspects to lead and direct a team of less experienced players to success. It was a path for new raiders to participate and get a feel for the encounters without being overwhelmed by a tsunami of mechanics. Then, as those players become more familiar with an encounter, they can graduate to more of a "lead" role.

Agree- Requiring every player be good at every role is stressful, and diminishes the potential for growth and replayability. Someone should have the ability to say "I'm good at X and not Y" and the group is able to work around that.

That’s one of the things I really enjoy about most of Last Wish. I know my strengths as a player. When I join an LFG group, I say to them “I’m happy to take any role or position, but what I do best is ad clear”. Randos are usually happy to let me take that role, especially after the first couple encounters when they see I can do it well. Role-based activities actually promote meeting and cooperating with new people. A full team of strangers can have a quick chat about what everyone wants to do, where they feel comfortable, and work out if they’re theoretically a good fit.

Killing all the remaining ads after the Deathsinger was also fun... it was a nice way to "vent" after the stressful race against the clock that proceeded it. Plus, it was a great way to build up supers and collect ammo before entering the final encounter of the raid.

I'm sorry, what?

All I ever heard from anyone about this was how much it sucked. Especially on hard mode, where clean-up duty was required to be performed by anyone who hadn't died, and took forever while the rest of the fireteam twiddled their thumbs.

It sounds like you're retroactively trying to explain this away as a good thing because it somehow masks the fact that the pacing between encounters for CE is actually terrible compared to VoG.

I don’t remember it that way at all, but it’s possible that my memory of Crota is dominated by the HoW days when the level gap was evened out and everything seemed to run a bit more smoothly. Those were the days when we’d smash through 3 runs in 90 minutes, so clearing that group of ads wasn’t as much of a hassle anymore.

His points about players cheesing the Bridge is also a strange one (by which I mean, it is strange that anyone ever cheesed the bridge because it was actually slower and more difficult than simply doing the encounter normally. I can't explain that one).

Slower, yes. More Difficult? No. Lots of people don't have the patience for the strangers in their LFG fireteam dying over and over as they learn the encounter, hence placing all the requirements for success on one competent person who knows how to cheese.

This probably isn’t representative, but the few times I joined random groups that were set on cheesing the bridge, the player trying to cross the gap kept failing, or it took forever for everyone to jump up to the roof... it really was slower than a proper run. In 1 of those cases, I talked the group into trying it legit, and after teaching them how to do it we nailed it first try. Everyone was saying “that’s it? I always heard this encounter was impossible!”.

The abyss is a fantastic encounter. It is fun and exciting every single time. The fact that a small portion of the player base learned how to cheese it is, IMO, fine. Not a problem. When I compare it to more recent iterations on a similar style of encounter (such as the chase to deliver Riven's heart at the end of Last Wish <- Last Wish spoiler), the Abyss remains fun and exciting 4 years later, while the latter example is a pain in the ass that I would skip every time if I could.

That's interesting to hear that. The final Last Wish encounter looks like the best part of that raid.

I need to think more about this, but my problem with that encounter might come down to pacing more than anything else. I certainly don’t enjoy it when I’m in it, but that might be because it comes at a point where I’m just ready for the whole thing to be over.

---

After watching the race to World's first for Last Wish, I wrote up a big post that I wanted to discuss with everyone who was okay with spoilers about the encounters of LW, but never got around to finishing it. My big gripe is that LW feels SUPER uncreative, to the point where a lot of the encounters are just mixing and matching of other raid encounters. Actually, the last raid encounter I found to be not guilty of this was the Zamboni.

Yeah, that’s a good point.

This probably isn’t representative, but the few times I joined random groups that were set on cheesing the bridge, the player trying to cross the gap kept failing, or it took forever for everyone to jump up to the roof... it really was slower than a proper run. In 1 of those cases, I talked the group into trying it legit, and after teaching them how to do it we nailed it first try. Everyone was saying “that’s it? I always heard this encounter was impossible!”.

I didn't play Crota's End until well into the House of Wolves era (I think--I should check with that Triumphs montage on the character screen of D2). So nothing about that raid was every difficult when I played it, which warps my perspective a bit.

That's interesting to hear that. The final Last Wish encounter looks like the best part of that raid.

I need to think more about this, but my problem with that encounter might come down to pacing more than anything else. I certainly don’t enjoy it when I’m in it, but that might be because it comes at a point where I’m just ready for the whole thing to be over.

No, I think your initial impressions are right. It's just not a fun a encounter. As I've said, I think it's too tedious. It's the worst of both design philosophies, honestly. One person gets the relic from the Captain and actually does stuff, while the other two sit with their thumbs up their ass. Sure, the other person directs the relic runner, but that's not really an active role in a way that's fun. There aren't any ads to clear to speak of (Wow, a whole nine Taken Psions and a few snipey dudes--my shooting abilities are really challenged! One grenade takes out the group in the middle, and two headshots with my curated Nation of Beasts for a second group and then I just get to stand there).

After watching the race to World's first for Last Wish, I wrote up a big post that I wanted to discuss with everyone who was okay with spoilers about the encounters of LW, but never got around to finishing it. My big gripe is that LW feels SUPER uncreative, to the point where a lot of the encounters are just mixing and matching of other raid encounters. Actually, the last raid encounter I found to be not guilty of this was the Zamboni.

Yeah, that’s a good point.

I dunno, that whole encounter is exactly just mixing and matching of other raid encounters. We've got calling out of hidden symbols, which has been around since Warpriest in King's Fall. We've got a relic with a cleansing mechanic, which was in the very first raid. Even splitting the team into different groups is just a remix of Atheon teleporting three players to another area. The only really unique thing is the mechanic with Riven's Eyes, which is admittedly pretty neat, but the entire rest of the encounter is lackluster. Actual combat skill and gunplay barely factors into the encounter at all.

This probably isn’t representative, but the few times I joined random groups that were set on cheesing the bridge, the player trying to cross the gap kept failing, or it took forever for everyone to jump up to the roof... it really was slower than a proper run. In 1 of those cases, I talked the group into trying it legit, and after teaching them how to do it we nailed it first try. Everyone was saying “that’s it? I always heard this encounter was impossible!”.

I didn't play Crota's End until well into the House of Wolves era (I think--I should check with that Triumphs montage on the character screen of D2). So nothing about that raid was every difficult when I played it, which warps my perspective a bit.

That's interesting to hear that. The final Last Wish encounter looks like the best part of that raid.

I need to think more about this, but my problem with that encounter might come down to pacing more than anything else. I certainly don’t enjoy it when I’m in it, but that might be because it comes at a point where I’m just ready for the whole thing to be over.

No, I think your initial impressions are right. It's just not a fun a encounter. As I've said, I think it's too tedious. It's the worst of both design philosophies, honestly. One person gets the relic from the Captain and actually does stuff, while the other two sit with their thumbs up their ass. Sure, the other person directs the relic runner, but that's not really an active role in a way that's fun. There aren't any ads to clear to speak of (Wow, a whole nine Taken Psions and a few snipey dudes--my shooting abilities are really challenged! One grenade takes out the group in the middle, and two headshots with my curated Nation of Beasts for a second group and then I just get to stand there).

After watching the race to World's first for Last Wish, I wrote up a big post that I wanted to discuss with everyone who was okay with spoilers about the encounters of LW, but never got around to finishing it. My big gripe is that LW feels SUPER uncreative, to the point where a lot of the encounters are just mixing and matching of other raid encounters. Actually, the last raid encounter I found to be not guilty of this was the Zamboni.

Yeah, that’s a good point.

I dunno, that whole encounter is exactly just mixing and matching of other raid encounters. We've got calling out of hidden symbols, which has been around since Warpriest in King's Fall. We've got a relic with a cleansing mechanic, which was in the very first raid. Even splitting the team into different groups is just a remix of Atheon teleporting three players to another area. The only really unique thing is the mechanic with Riven's Eyes, which is admittedly pretty neat, but the entire rest of the encounter is lackluster. Actual combat skill and gunplay barely factors into the encounter at all.

I don’t want to spoil anything at all because I know you’re part of Kermit’s Blind team, so I’ll just say this in the most vague and general way possible: the part you are talking about is not the part that Cyber and I are talking about ;)

I don’t want to spoil anything at all because I know you’re part of Kermit’s Blind team, so I’ll just say this in the most vague and general way possible: the part you are talking about is not the part that Cyber and I are talking about ;)

Ah, okay. I've actually been spoiled on that anyway, I just forgot about it because I haven't actually done it. It also looks not very fun, but maybe actually playing it will change my mind.

Crota could be smashed around fairly casually and treated like a nightfall once we were leveled up enough.

That's what was fun. The rest of the raids had dumb mechanics that forced the encounters to be done the same way, basically, or one of two alternate ways. Crota could be done tons of different ways; it was flexible.

After that expansion, too, they ruined all boss fights, forcing us into arenas with no hiding spots, where we have to constantly jump around.

It actually really kills my enjoyment of the stuff. Every time a new boss shows up, I don't think "oh this is what this boss does," I think "oh this is how they took away the fun on this one."

That's pretty funny, not in a "haha" way, but in a "how 'bout that" way. I'm ignorant and curious when it comes to game dev in this regard but how do they test these type of things? It seems like "we" played most of the encounters "wrong"...how did nobody internally play it like "us"? There sure seem to be a lot of these oops moments with Destiny.

I get the feeling more devs should hang out in Test.

Just a thought.

On the other hand... his responses to most of those gave me an ache in the pit of my stomach.

The abyss is a fantastic encounter. It is fun and exciting every single time. The fact that a small portion of the player base learned how to cheese it is, IMO, fine. Not a problem. When I compare it to more recent iterations on a similar style of encounter (such as the chase to deliver Riven's heart at the end of Last Wish <- Last Wish spoiler), the Abyss remains fun and exciting 4 years later, while the latter example is a pain in the ass that I would skip every time if I could.

Yup!

It occurs to me that the Abyss is more fun to play, and that last sequence you mentioned is lots of fun... to watch.

The only really unique thing is the mechanic with Riven's Eyes, which is admittedly pretty neat, but the entire rest of the encounter is lackluster. Actual combat skill and gunplay barely factors into the encounter at all.

Heh - I was gonna argue with this... but thinking back on last night, the VAST majority of our fails came from being in the wrong place to cleanse ("No, not that one, a little higher up the stairs- never mind, I've got the res") or missing eye shots. (I guess getting pushed by Ogres counts as combat skills deaths; we should have cleared them before shooting.)

The process isn't unique, it's just precise, and very long - mistakes compound, and the need for perfection becomes tedious. I can see why LFG groups ONLY do the cheese.

The process isn't unique, it's just precise, and very long - mistakes compound, and the need for perfection becomes tedious. I can see why LFG groups ONLY do the cheese.

This is where things become anti-fun (for me, at least). I love raid mechanics where a mistake or death was an opportunity for the group to shift roles, adapt, and still pull off a win. Here, though, waiting too long do enough damage to get Riven to reveal her eyes, either because you were trying to give the other team enough time to cleanse or because you were late getting to the 2nd floor, means that unless you can defy the 1-in-45 odds and guess both eyes correctly, everyone is insta-killed and your round is over.

I'm glad we worked out how to do it the correct way, but I'm totally down for cheesing it from here on out.

-Disciple

The only really unique thing is the mechanic with Riven's Eyes, which is admittedly pretty neat, but the entire rest of the encounter is lackluster. Actual combat skill and gunplay barely factors into the encounter at all.

Heh - I was gonna argue with this... but thinking back on last night, the VAST majority of our fails came from being in the wrong place to cleanse ("No, not that one, a little higher up the stairs- never mind, I've got the res") or missing eye shots. (I guess getting pushed by Ogres counts as combat skills deaths; we should have cleared them before shooting.)

I still wonder if just numbering those positions might be more effective than the callouts we’ve used. I think it would, but only marginally. You’d still have to have them memorized very well, and moving around that room is obviously way different than what it looks like while staring through the window. The orb runners need to pretty know exactly where every one of the symbols are to be able to accomplish that part smoothly.

The process isn't unique, it's just precise, and very long - mistakes compound, and the need for perfection becomes tedious. I can see why LFG groups ONLY do the cheese.

I will probably mainly do the cheese from here on out, if I do it at all. I had a lot of fun last night, but that was solely because of you folks and not at all because of the activity.

It’s a really neat encounter on paper, I think, but in practice it is just not fun or compelling.