Looks like a marketing video to me.

Looks like a marketing video to me.

It's almost like they are a company that provides a product to people for money...

Looks pretty cool to me. It seems like they are using the Ascendant Challenges and Whisper Quest as examples of "new things to do" which sounds good.

I like that they are clamping down on this idea. Everyone likes this. There is is still plenty of content that is on a checklist, but I'm really happy that they are continuing to add new secrets.

New things showing up or rotating in on resets is definitely one of the best aspects of Forsaken. I appreciate that lean.

But those new Exotics. Like. That’s the juicy stuff. I’m very encouraged and given my desire since anout D1Y2 to have more trickled content this all feels good.

Specificaly it looks like we will be getting an end-of-season Exotic Quest like Thunderlord - hopefully they are more involved, though. Love the concept, but only 1/3 of the execution.

I didn't get much out this video. It was entertaining to watch and to see all the new stuff but I don't know what to think of this annual pass system. Part of it is the talks that were going on a month or so ago with the D3 rumors and they are going to gear more towards the hardcore crowd. I'm yet to receive a forsaken exotic and I don't really have the time or skill to complete the tasks required to get them. So instead of releasing doable content, they are releasing grindable content.

In that video they showed clips of (who I assume are) streamers playing, reacting, unlocking stuff. Remember that video they released long ago after Halo era with that terrible Hoobastank song? It seems their target audience has greatly changed since then and my concern is that I'm not in the new demographic.

I don't know if it's me or Destiny, but I'm not finding myself excited about or interested in Destiny like before and that vidoc didn't really whet my appetite. Maybe I'm just getting old.

I didn't get much out this video. It was entertaining to watch and to see all the new stuff but I don't know what to think of this annual pass system. Part of it is the talks that were going on a month or so ago with the D3 rumors and they are going to gear more towards the hardcore crowd. I'm yet to receive a forsaken exotic and I don't really have the time or skill to complete the tasks required to get them. So instead of releasing doable content, they are releasing grindable content.

In that video they showed clips of (who I assume are) streamers playing, reacting, unlocking stuff. Remember that video they released long ago after Halo era with that terrible Hoobastank song? It seems their target audience has greatly changed since then and my concern is that I'm not in the new demographic.

I don't know if it's me or Destiny, but I'm not finding myself excited about or interested in Destiny like before and that vidoc didn't really whet my appetite. Maybe I'm just getting old.

I'm older than dirt, but I'm excited (and weirdly conflicted. Don't know when I'll take my RDR2 sabbatical).

Looks like a marketing video to me.

You mean the thing ViDocs have been since they first started releasing them a decade ago? I’m shocked!

Looks like they're no longer calling it a Raid lair, but it's shorter than The Last Wish (Thanks?). I'm excited to be in the city again (the Chosen is one of my favorite D2 missions).

Given that the light level cap is going to be 650, I'd guess that the minimum requirement for the raid will be 630 or 640.

Kerm

Looks like a marketing video to me.

You mean the thing ViDocs have been since they first started releasing them a decade ago? I’m shocked!

I kind of got the same feeling as Cody, though I tried not to be so blindly cynical.

This video played less like a "here's a look behind the curtain of our game creation process" and more like a "Please buy the annual pass!" pitch. Nothing felt genuine, though the new stuff looked neat.

And I like how they skirt the Activision pressures as "this is what we want to do, because of fan feedback! Remember how players asked for matchmaking activities four years ago? Well, we've listened! Goodbye campaign expansions!"

It's pretty much sold me on NOT buying the annual pass, since it's clearly just yet-another manufactured-enthusiasm video from Bungie. I predict that the Season Pass will be on sale by Christmas.

Looks like they're no longer calling it a Raid lair, but it's shorter than The Last Wish (Thanks?). I'm excited to be in the city again (the Chosen is one of my favorite D2 missions).

Given that the light level cap is going to be 650, I'd guess that the minimum requirement for the raid will be 630 or 640.

Kerm

When the level cap was 600, minimum for the raid was 560. So why wouldn't the new one be 610?

Looks like they're no longer calling it a Raid lair, but it's shorter than The Last Wish (Thanks?). I'm excited to be in the city again (the Chosen is one of my favorite D2 missions).

Given that the light level cap is going to be 650, I'd guess that the minimum requirement for the raid will be 630 or 640.

Kerm

When the level cap was 600, minimum for the raid was 560. So why wouldn't the new one be 610?

That would be great! I was thinking proportionally--most of us were in the 380-400 range when Forsaken dropped. 560 was 80% of the possible light increase. 640 is 80% of the possible light increase this time.

Looks like they're no longer calling it a Raid lair, but it's shorter than The Last Wish (Thanks?). I'm excited to be in the city again (the Chosen is one of my favorite D2 missions).

Given that the light level cap is going to be 650, I'd guess that the minimum requirement for the raid will be 630 or 640.

Kerm

When the level cap was 600, minimum for the raid was 560. So why wouldn't the new one be 610?

It's usually not based on the Level cap. It's based on the last encounter light level. My guess is the end encounter will be 640 and the start will be 630 so the entry will be 620.

Don't know when I'll take my RDR2 sabbatical.

Heard that. For a game that has endless mundane tasks...it is quite enjoyable.

Looks like they're no longer calling it a Raid lair, but it's shorter than The Last Wish (Thanks?). I'm excited to be in the city again (the Chosen is one of my favorite D2 missions).

Given that the light level cap is going to be 650, I'd guess that the minimum requirement for the raid will be 630 or 640.

Kerm

When the level cap was 600, minimum for the raid was 560. So why wouldn't the new one be 610?

I’m more concerned about what happens to the soft cap. I’m still in the high 570s.

I understand what he meant. I don’t necessarily disagree. I miss the behind the scenes style of the old ViDocs, too, but they haven’t been that since Bungie started making Destiny, basically, and definitely not at any point for D2. This is what ViDocs have been for a while.

As for the annual pass . . .

Well, it remains to be seen. I like it, in theory. I’d love to log in every week and have a new thing open up . . . provided it’s actual content and not a repeat of the Thunderlord quest.

It is also unfair and cynical to act like the people talking aren’t genuinely excited about what they are doing. Even if it isn’t a deep dive behind the scenes, it isn’t like they’re reading cue cards covered in bullet points.

Looks like they're no longer calling it a Raid lair

They're still explicitly calling it a raid lair, in game. If you click the Season 5 icon in the upper right on the Director screen, it brings up a Season of the Forge thing with a box that says "New Raid Lair"

Not that it particularly matters, I guess.

Looks like they're no longer calling it a Raid lair

They're still explicitly calling it a raid lair, in game. If you click the Season 5 icon in the upper right on the Director screen, it brings up a Season of the Forge thing with a box that says "New Raid Lair"

Not that it particularly matters, I guess.

It matters from a marketing perspective, I think (without knowing how much the new "Raid" entails, content-wise).

"Raid Lair" has received a negative reception in the community, with the term basically meaning "raid lite", and thus not having nearly as much value as an actual raid. Given that they're asking for the same amount of money for less product (again, subject to change, but they're ditching campaigns), they need it to sound enticing, so "raid lair" is out, "Raid" is in. I wouldn't be surprised if the in-game ad gets updated to reflect the more appealing term.

Who knows, maybe ditching campaign means more resources going into the raid lair, which would upgrade it to proper Raid status, but considering the way those resources are being spread into three DLCs this time, instead of two, it may be smaller than usual.

Some really cool things in there. And it's obvious that the direction we are headed in is more of the same. And I think that means Forsaken is the beginning of the end for me. I find myself strangely sad and conflicted -- I've had a ton of fun with forsaken and D2, and I've also continued to be frustrated at the lack of value my time has in the confines of the game.

There are countless examples of how my time is "meaningless" in destiny. From collecting bounties every time I log in, ascendant challenges where some bad luck loses me 10+ minutes, Progression paths that take me away from activities I would prefer to chase, instead focusing on "light levels"... Chasing "clan rewards" means playing specific content most of the time. Replaying single player, story-driven content is difficult... And story missions are generally unavailable to re-play in a linear fashion (other than going through with a new character), though playing them for daily type rewards is a thing now at least. Strikes lean away from meaningful rewards, and are fun but higher time vs reward than other activities. Bigger rewards continue to move towards account based, with the assumption that all of these "minor" daily type things (that take time!) are done with multiple characters.

I find more and more that Destiny is about doing the small, repetitive, daily (or bi-weekly) tasks rather than actually progressing through something that feels more naturally organic rather than forced. I don't know why I can only get rewards by event hopping on a time-boxed basis. Why can't I play 14 strikes and get the same rewards I get from 1 + 3 strikes, 1 + 3 gambit, 1 + 5 crucible matches? Between the way these rewards are set up and the RNG based bounties, I find that I'm being told how to play via progression way too often. If I log in for a couple hours and want to do, say, dreaming city things, but my bounties and weekly rewards are all PvP then I have to choose between what I'd like to do (Dreaming city things) and what will allow me to progress (PvP rewards + bounties).

I have to be relatively in lock-step with my friends or I don't get to do the group activities. Peer pressure is great, but can also lead to a bad taste if you're always trying to keep up with the joneses.

Today I received Truth for the first time. I've played more gambit than probably anything else since forsaken dropped. Yeah yeah RNG... still. I wondered where it came from and had no idea that it was simply RNG based and my luck was terrible on that one. I literally wrapped my gambit ranking without seeing it drop in season 4. Weapon availability continues to be an issue, and I think we're doubling down on that one.

Imagine my dismay when I looked up what it would take to complete my seal for the cursebreaker title reward this past weekend. I thought I was close... yeah, nope. At over half way, I'm time-locked for 6 weeks from now just on ahamkara bones alone, ignoring finishing the shattered throne a few times, getting wish-ender, then dealing with the corrupted eggs. Sounds like fun, but not something I can really do at my own pace -- I've got to show up at certain times and places... sometimes with friends... again, I've got to dedicate more time (scheduling as a new flavor on the above, beyond simply sinking in the time it takes, which I had previously considered...)

I've played D2... well, I'm in the top 27% of the playerbase. way too much. That's an awful lot of time to feel like I'm barely keeping up, and missing out on a decent chunk of the content as well.

I like destiny. A lot! But the time investment is becoming too high. And I fear I am being removed from the target demographics with the current direction. Because I am more than destiny. I'm looking for more than just something I can play 4, 6, 8 hours a day pretty much every day. I miss the days of being able to play one or two nights a week and have a viable character that can do most things with friends. I think it's great that we're catering to people who want to live in a virtual world. I think it's a shame that the bar is being raised so high that I have to spend that much time to even get close to experiencing most of the content.

I get it... it's a fine line. I think there are other ways of making content meaningful other than time sinks. Those have their place, for sure... but that doesn't have to be the end-all. And, while I'd love to discuss some ways on how to get that done, that had best be saved for another time, when I'm not soapboxing like crazy. =)

Today I received Truth for the first time. I've played more gambit than probably anything else since forsaken dropped. Yeah yeah RNG... still. I wondered where it came from and had no idea that it was simply RNG based and my luck was terrible on that one. I literally wrapped my gambit ranking without seeing it drop in season 4. Weapon availability continues to be an issue, and I think we're doubling down on that one.

Wait, what? I totally sympathized with a lot of your points, because I think you're right, folks with limited time DO have to choose between activities that they enjoy and activities that give them powerful rewards (there are lots of powerful rewards now, but you have to play a LOT to really take advantage of them)... but this one makes me confused.

There's a GUARANTEED Trust drop at your first Infamy rank reset - Drifter GIVES you a Trust when you finish Legend. You said you wrapped your ranking, but never got one... did you forget (or, I guess, not know) to pick it up?

It's still available, btw. Go talk to him - it's in the row of stuff below his bounties.

(fwiw, that was my first Trust, as well. Within 2 weeks of getting it, though, I had received almost half a dozen. RNG is a fickle mistress.)

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It is also unfair and cynical to act like the people talking aren’t genuinely excited about what they are doing. Even if it isn’t a deep dive behind the scenes, it isn’t like they’re reading cue cards covered in bullet points.

And let's say you think they are doing that. You think that they're feigning enthusiasm, and they don't really care, and they can't wait to get out of the hellhole that is Bungie now. My question for those who believe that is, why are you still here? Why are you playing Destiny or following Destiny? If it's just to be THAT GUY, the one whose every post is an opportunity to snark and hold yourself above the people who like where Destiny is now, then I say go away, please. You're not helping. You may think you are, but you're not.

It is also unfair and cynical to act like the people talking aren’t genuinely excited about what they are doing. Even if it isn’t a deep dive behind the scenes, it isn’t like they’re reading cue cards covered in bullet points.

My sweet Summer child...

In this eight minute video, the Annual Pass is directly mentioned or shown on screen eleven times, and by almost every pair of people shown (having different people pitch an idea at you is level 1 advertising).

Bungie made sure to hire a good video director, who had the pairs occasionally talking at each other (as if one of them wouldn't be aware of the thing their department has been working on for months), so it wasn't coming off as them just hyping a product at you, the viewer, but at each other, making them excited about the product they're selling you. Level 2 advertising!

Sure, this video isn't as bad as the ones that came before it, but they are very much reading bullet points and buzzwords. Directly mentioning things that Reddit has targeted their way (I especially like the moment where Steve Cotton specifically references the "Take risks, even if they don't land!" issue, before immediately saying "The Forsaken™ Annual Pass is about continuing...")

I'm not saying any of them was at gunpoint blinking morse code at the camera, of course they enjoy their job, or they wouldn't be there. But the careful marketing is obvious.

I'll definitely say I miss the old Bungie that wasn't as eager to please, but I also miss the old fanbase that wasn't as impossible to please.

Wait, you reset your Infamy?

For someone who repeatedly said he didn’t think he liked Gambit, you sure played a lot of it! (:

I'm in pretty much the exact same camp, with the exact same feelings (so probably about ten tents over).

This all looks cool, but at no time did I personally ever want Destiny to become a constant, every day chore. I have precious little time, and too much else I want to play. I just don't feel like my time is being respected (compared to that of a streamer who's made it their life) when I log in anymore, and that sucks. I bounced away after Festival of the Lost ended and grabbing my Thunderlord. I legit picked it up, signed out, and haven't logged back in to fire even a single round.

So that said... If I bought this, with my time commitment, just how much of this awesome content am I even going to see? Going to use? Going to participate in?

The answer I'm sadly arriving to is "Not enough to justify the cost".

Maybe eventually I'll shell out, but not now. And if this is how they're going to choose to double down going into the next game... I might be cashing in my chips entirely.

Wait, you reset your Infamy?

For someone who repeatedly said he didn’t think he liked Gambit, you sure played a lot of it! (:

To be fair, we've had a few triple XP weekends, and even I reset my rank twice this past weekend alone.

“Less product” is yet to been seen. Different product, yes, but you’ve got 9 months of content to work through before you can claim it is less product.

Wait, you reset your Infamy?

For someone who repeatedly said he didn’t think he liked Gambit, you sure played a lot of it! (:

You're not kidding.

I think I decided that I wasn't going to let a video game dictate my mood. I'm not sure if that's childish stubbornness or just an attempt to be LESS childish... but yeah, I played a lot in the past two or three weeks.

I mean, you can taint your interpretation of things as much as you want. You can do a whole Charlie Day consoiracy wall if you want. I consider that to reflect poorly on your perspective, not their presentation. Even past ViDocs before this apparently cursed marketing takeover can fulfill your commentary.

They obviously had more than 8 minutes of commentary to work with. But a highlight reel that is obviously such doesn’t make the content of that reel not genuine. Your cynicism sounds like a choice to see it before reason.

“Less product” is yet to been seen.

Ah yes, literally what I acknowledged twice. Good point!

Different product, yes, but you’ve got 9 months of content to work through before you can claim it is less product.

Again, we have yet to see how much content is included in terms of value and depth, but from what Bungie has specifically promised, this is what your $35 gets you:

The first three months will include:

1 "raid",
Weapons and an armor set for each class.
4 Black Armory maps for four exotics.
1 exotic quest for Last Word (Like the Thunderlord quest? Oh boi!)
And... New lore books and Triumphs. Riveting.

And all of this amazing value gets trickled out over the course of three months. So yeah, that Last Word that you're paying for now? You're not going to be able to get that until February (If Thunderlord was anything to go by). But at least the raid launches three days after the Black Armory drops.

Curse of Osiris had more (on paper, since we haven't seen the exact Annual Pass content yet). But because the Annual Pass content is being bundled with the content that's coming out for all Forsaken owners, it's easy to lose perspective over how much you're actually paying for, but seeing as how I'm not falling for it, but will be playing plenty of Destiny 2 over the next few months, it'll be interesting to see if I feel like I'm really missing out on any substantial content.

That said, we have no choice but to adopt a wait-and-see approach, given how this is the first radical shift in content delivery for Bungie (but would it have been so different if Curse of Osiris trickled out its different bits of content over three months?). I hope they surprise and succeed with more content coming out, and maybe even a hint of ambition in there somewhere like I was able to finally see in the Shattered Throne dungeon.

With that push, did you find yourself enjoying it more than you had or still he same frustrations you have voiced about the mode?

I've often wondered the same, "Am I Destiny's target audience anymore?" I think I am, but I'm really tired of Destiny hammering down on the Fear Of Missing Out (FOMO.) Everything now is a timed event, a race to finish so much in a designated time box. Fail to do so and you've missed out. I'm looking at you sunshot catalyst that I never got last faction rally and now have no opportunity to get. Fail to keep leveling up and getting the right exotics your going to have trouble getting into groups and tackling group oriented challenges while people are still excited about them.

It starts to suck the fun out of things. You feel like you need to play the game on its terms rather than your own. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think you should be able to do anything, whenever, however, and get everything. That leads to a fun syphon of its own. But it would be nice to have pressure valves built into the system and communicated so that you have an out or a catch up mechanic.

Xur used to function like this; can't get that prized exotic for your class to drop (I'm looking at you Orpheus Rigs which I finally got from Xur) eventually Xur will sell them or you can gamble on fated engrams and you can be more effective at raiding or crucible or whatever is that you are looking for. Destiny 1 was great at this with the weapons and armor that each faction would sell. Need a good scout? Dead Orbit has you covered.

Now there is no catch up. FOMO is amplified. You are stuck simply grinding. Grinding takes time and luck. Luck is not in your control and time is a limited resource.

Looks like a marketing video to me.

You mean the thing ViDocs have been since they first started releasing them a decade ago? I’m shocked!

I kind of got the same feeling as Cody, though I tried not to be so blindly cynical.

This video played less like a "here's a look behind the curtain of our game creation process" and more like a "Please buy the annual pass!" pitch. Nothing felt genuine, though the new stuff looked neat.

And I like how they skirt the Activision pressures as "this is what we want to do, because of fan feedback! Remember how players asked for matchmaking activities four years ago? Well, we've listened! Goodbye campaign expansions!"

It's pretty much sold me on NOT buying the annual pass, since it's clearly just yet-another manufactured-enthusiasm video from Bungie. I predict that the Season Pass will be on sale by Christmas.

Yeah, this is it right here. I mean all the Vidocs were sales videos at the end of the day, but they felt more fan focused before and not a pitch to buy stuff.

I understand what he meant. I don’t necessarily disagree. I miss the behind the scenes style of the old ViDocs, too, but they haven’t been that since Bungie started making Destiny, basically, and definitely not at any point for D2. This is what ViDocs have been for a while.

As for the annual pass . . .

Well, it remains to be seen. I like it, in theory. I’d love to log in every week and have a new thing open up . . . provided it’s actual content and not a repeat of the Thunderlord quest.

Dude. Do you really think it won’t be many smaller things?

The reality is that making something great takes longer than playing it. So to have awesome new activities every single day is just not possible. No game has done it. You either get many little things that don’t reach critical mass, or you have the investment system slow and spread progress so you FEEL like there is something to do everyday.

The abandonment of the campaign is a troubling decision in my opinion. I don’t know why we can’t just have 40 dollar forsakens every six months. That would be ideal. If people scoff at the price, then clearly everyone has forgotten the concept of value.

It is also unfair and cynical to act like the people talking aren’t genuinely excited about what they are doing. Even if it isn’t a deep dive behind the scenes, it isn’t like they’re reading cue cards covered in bullet points.

I don’t have any problem with a game company genuinely talking about how they love their game and can’t wait for us to play it. But as Korny said, this feels like it is selling the concept of the pass, not the excitement of the game as the old Vidocs seemed to do.

I'll definitely say I miss the old Bungie that wasn't as eager to please, but I also miss the old fanbase that wasn't as impossible to please.

I myself am easy to please actually. Just get rid of eververse, light levels, and the investment system and I would have no complaints! :-p

Regarding activity hopping:

The reason this is done is because there will always be a most “efficient” way to earn powerful gear. The idea I think is to spread it around so players don’t flock to the most rewarding activity exclusively.

The two raids alone would be worth it for me. Assuming I can actually do them with you guys!

Yeah, this is it right here. I mean all the Vidocs were sales videos at the end of the day, but they felt more fan focused before and not a pitch to buy stuff.

So if it wasn't labeled as a ViDoc would you (and Korny, or anyone who seems to be upset that this exists) be... more OK with it?

I'll admit it doesn't feel like some of the old ViDocs, but it's not like any other Destiny or D2 ViDocs have been really behind the scenes like the H3 ones. Heck, even the Reach ones feel more like marketing than a documentary about the making of process. I mean, you're the one who preaches about how much the culture has changed, do you really think they could make ViDoc's like they use to? Would it be beneficial for them as a company?

I'll definitely say I miss the old Bungie that wasn't as eager to please, but I also miss the old fanbase that wasn't as impossible to please.

I myself am easy to please actually. Just get rid of eververse, light levels, and the investment system and I would have no complaints! :-p

I want those things also, but calling that easy is sooo ignorant of what would be involved or how that would affect the player base.

Yeah, this is it right here. I mean all the Vidocs were sales videos at the end of the day, but they felt more fan focused before and not a pitch to buy stuff.

So if it wasn't labeled as a ViDoc would you (and Korny, or anyone who seems to be upset that this exists) be... more OK with it?

I mean, they can use whatever name they want for it. That part is ultimately irrelevant (although ViDoc has historically meant a look into the sausage-making process and/or a dialogue about aims and challenges. You know, a sort of video documentary on the developer and their work), the issue is the content. It's a thinly-veiled plea to purchase the Season Pass for their underperforming game, and it just feels... not desperate, but insincere.

I wanted to see what they've been working on, and I got that, I guess. But they keep pitching the Season Pass as "this is us listening to feedback and stepping it up with a constant stream of content!" When it's essentially making people pay the same money for trickled out content that's seemingly not even CoO in size, scope, or potential. But Annual Pass!
Annual Pass!
Dev 1: Have you heard about our Annual Pass?
Dev 2: Whoah, really, PREMIUM content?
Dev 1: ADDED LAYER OF VALUE!

Maybe if the title included the term "Annual Pass" in any capacity, it'd be more honest. The video is mostly an ad blurring the stuff you pay for and the stuff you don't. But given how they've split this into the Battle Royale seasonal-trickle model, they've made it difficult to really advertise this stuff any other way, but again, this video feels much more like an eight-minute informercial than a ViDoc.

I'll admit it doesn't feel like some of the old ViDocs, but it's not like any other Destiny or D2 ViDocs have been really behind the scenes like the H3 ones. Heck, even the Reach ones feel more like marketing than a documentary about the making of process. I mean, you're the one who preaches about how much the culture has changed, do you really think they could make ViDoc's like they use to?

Absolutely. Fans want communication. They want understanding. Bungie should know this with how well-loved and well-received their ViDocs have been since the days of Halo 2. Is it really that hard for them to talk about what they do? What their process is? Is it really that hard to get someone to talk about their passion? When the most recent (completely free) expansion for Warframe was about to drop, over 40,000 people watched a stream of the Project Lead Steve Sinclair talk about the game and what went into it, as he and his team tried to fix a final batch of bugs before it launched. It wasn't new footage. It wasn't carefully edited videos of folks having a gay old time telling us why we should give them money. It was a tired dev working hard as he talked about his passion. This stuff matters to people.

Would it be beneficial for them as a company?

If there is one single idea that's become one of the biggest issues in gaming in the past couple of years, it's communication. It's goodwill.

Their ViDocs are one of the single biggest reasons that I bought Ninja Theory's Hellblade, and even having the game, I still go back and watch them. If you communicate with people, they will often want to help you achieve your hopes and dreams (unless you're a weird cynic who only feels envy/sadness when you see other people succeeding, but that's a whole 'nother topic).

When it comes to communication or honesty, Bungie faltered, 343i faltered, DICE faltered, Bethesda has faltered. Every single one of these companies has had to issue "We're sorry, we're listening! We'll communicate more moving forward!" proclamations/apologies. And why? Because their sales figures were hurt. This stuff absolutely matters. Look at sales for Battlefield V, or Fallout 76. How you communicate with your audience matters.

Everyone points to companies like CD Projekt Red and Digital Extremes as examples of how you communicate well with your community, and in DE's case, how you can afford to mess up, because people know you will course correct. Because those devs have shown people what their work is like, what their ambitions are, why they couldn't quite reach them, and what they're doing moving forward. They've put out real ViDocs.

I mean, maybe it's just me, but I respect stuff like that. Seeing Bungie's idea of communication being an extended commercial just asking me to give them more money for a product they won't deliver for months to a year? and on top of that calling it a ViDoc? I dunno. It just doesn't sit well with me.

With that push, did you find yourself enjoying it more than you had or still he same frustrations you have voiced about the mode?

Both, actually. ;) (Fewer frustrations, but they're still there.)

Part of it was a conscious decision to accept bad events without blowing up. I think it's been healthy. ;)

I've often wondered the same, "Am I Destiny's target audience anymore?" I think I am, but I'm really tired of Destiny hammering down on the Fear Of Missing Out (FOMO.) Everything now is a timed event, a race to finish so much in a designated time box. Fail to do so and you've missed out. I'm looking at you sunshot catalyst that I never got last faction rally and now have no opportunity to get. Fail to keep leveling up and getting the right exotics your going to have trouble getting into groups and tackling group oriented challenges while people are still excited about them.

They actually said there'd be more chances to get those catalysts; it hasn't happened yet, and maybe they've changed their minds and simply not told us yet, but i'd guess the chance will come again.

1 exotic quest for Last Word (Like the Thunderlord quest? Oh boi!)

Or maybe like the Whisper quest, which has been almost universally praised, and pointed to by Bungie as the type of event they'd like to do more of.

Not really sure why you need to be snarky about this.

1 exotic quest for Last Word (Like the Thunderlord quest? Oh boi!)

Or maybe like the Whisper quest, which has been almost universally praised, and pointed to by Bungie as the type of event they'd like to do more of.

Not really sure why you need to be snarky about this.

I mean, I've acknowledged how scrapping campaigns (because that's fun) means that we might get better piecemeal content as a result (I love best-case scenarios).

That said, Bungie has been talking about how they're going to "do more like this" since Black Spindle was released over three years ago. Before Destiny 2 launched, they were even winking and nudging when asked about hidden Exotic missions like it.
And what did we get? Nothing until Whisper. The same weapon as the last time. The whoops could not be bigger.
But hey, this time they're promising it once more!

But remember how they hyped up the "murder mystery" weeks in advance?
Remember how you could complete each step in ten to twenty minutes, but it was spread out over three weeks? The same way they're staggering all content from here on out?

I mean, I could confidently wager a Funkmon sock that the new exotic quest won't be next-level stuff, but honestly, it might be! Given Bungie's track record, though, I think I'll temper my expectations instead.

I'll definitely say I miss the old Bungie that wasn't as eager to please, but I also miss the old fanbase that wasn't as impossible to please.

I myself am easy to please actually. Just get rid of eververse, light levels, and the investment system and I would have no complaints! :-p

I want those things also, but calling that easy is sooo ignorant of what would be involved or how that would affect the player base.

I said nothing about the effort involved… I said I would be easily pleased if that happened.

Yeah, this is it right here. I mean all the Vidocs were sales videos at the end of the day, but they felt more fan focused before and not a pitch to buy stuff.

So if it wasn't labeled as a ViDoc would you (and Korny, or anyone who seems to be upset that this exists) be... more OK with it?

I'll admit it doesn't feel like some of the old ViDocs, but it's not like any other Destiny or D2 ViDocs have been really behind the scenes like the H3 ones. Heck, even the Reach ones feel more like marketing than a documentary about the making of process. I mean, you're the one who preaches about how much the culture has changed, do you really think they could make ViDoc's like they use to? Would it be beneficial for them as a company?

Unknown.

That Halo 2 behind the scenes that shipped with the special edition left a ton out. As one person put it, Jim MCQuillan knows where all the bodies are buried :-)

Maybe I'm just setting myself up for disappointment, but I think there's a huge difference.

Forsaken has set the tone and pace of this style of content. Yeah, the Thunderlord quest is almost indefensibly bad and shitty. That sucks. But the rest of Forsaken has been excellent in terms of long-term content. If the Dreaming City (and even things like Spider's rotating wanted bounties) is the template moving forward, I'm all for it.

Season 4 was so full of stuff to do, there's tons I haven't done. I still haven't even set foot in the Shattered Throne. I've only done a handful of Ascendant Challenges. I'll still be working towards Redrix's Broadsword and Luna's Howl. And now there's three more weapons to go get!

Maybe there's another Shattered Throne coming (or, if not that, at least another Whisper-scale mission).

Again, maybe I'm just setting myself up for disappointment, and we've certainly been in this place before, but I think Bungie has to know another year of Curse of Osiris isn't going to cut it at this point.

Selling excitement of a new direction that happens to be the Annual Pass instead of traditional DLC is different than excitement for the release of a traditional DLC how? Is your interpretation of their pitch different just because you know the content release is different even if the pitch boils down the same?

That’s good to hear. I had a similar experience with playnot with RNG though. Think I cashed that out on a lucky meatball kill the first time I ever had it spawn.

1¢ - I'm cautiously optimistic about this new approach. It seems to me they have finally figured out a system for both the front end and back end that may make all parties as happy as possible without over doing either side. Thank goodness for planning days, am I right Bungie? ;D

1¢ - There's a lot of talk here that boils down to "feelings", and such things make for terrible logic.

...and that's my 2¢. kthxbi

Today I received Truth for the first time. I've played more gambit than probably anything else since forsaken dropped. Yeah yeah RNG... still. I wondered where it came from and had no idea that it was simply RNG based and my luck was terrible on that one. I literally wrapped my gambit ranking without seeing it drop in season 4. Weapon availability continues to be an issue, and I think we're doubling down on that one.

Wait, what? I totally sympathized with a lot of your points, because I think you're right, folks with limited time DO have to choose between activities that they enjoy and activities that give them powerful rewards (there are lots of powerful rewards now, but you have to play a LOT to really take advantage of them)... but this one makes me confused.

There's a GUARANTEED Trust drop at your first Infamy rank reset - Drifter GIVES you a Trust when you finish Legend. You said you wrapped your ranking, but never got one... did you forget (or, I guess, not know) to pick it up?

It's still available, btw. Go talk to him - it's in the row of stuff below his bounties.

(fwiw, that was my first Trust, as well. Within 2 weeks of getting it, though, I had received almost half a dozen. RNG is a fickle mistress.)

I'll have to go check now. I double-checked my vault and felt like this was confirmed (that it really was my first drop) when "trust" showed up as a newly acquired weapon in collections. Maybe I missed it somewhere and lost my chance or something, I'm not sure... I hit the drifter a couple times a week, so not sure how I did. I feel sad and a little lame if that's the case -- it's a pretty awesome hand cannon. =)

Well, that's entirely different than how I expected English to work, to be honest

Well, that's entirely different than how I expected English to work, to be honest

Sent from my iPhone (so excuse the misspellings and weird sentence structure due to autocomplete)

I myself am easy to please actually.

"I myself am easy to please actually." - Cody Miller November 28, 2018, 15:59

Well, that's entirely different than how I expected English to work, to be honest

Sent from my iPhone (so excuse the misspellings and weird sentence structure due to autocomplete)

Nah, Zack's right - that's not really how English works, and it has nothing to do with autocomplete.

You basically said "I'm easy to please - let me just find a winning Powerball ticket on the ground outside my house."

You can't separate the difficulty of completing the task(s) required to satisfy your requirements from the need to please you - if what it takes to please you is getting rid of Eververse, light levels, and the investment system, then you are NOT easy to please, because satisfying those requirements is basically impossible.

Maybe I'm just setting myself up for disappointment, but I think there's a huge difference.

Forsaken has set the tone and pace of this style of content. Yeah, the Thunderlord quest is almost indefensibly bad and shitty. That sucks. But the rest of Forsaken has been excellent in terms of long-term content. If the Dreaming City (and even things like Spider's rotating wanted bounties) is the template moving forward, I'm all for it.

Season 4 was so full of stuff to do, there's tons I haven't done. I still haven't even set foot in the Shattered Throne. I've only done a handful of Ascendant Challenges. I'll still be working towards Redrix's Broadsword and Luna's Howl. And now there's three more weapons to go get!

Maybe there's another Shattered Throne coming (or, if not that, at least another Whisper-scale mission).

Again, maybe I'm just setting myself up for disappointment, and we've certainly been in this place before, but I think Bungie has to know another year of Curse of Osiris isn't going to cut it at this point.

I honestly don't get the people are lauding this game as lack of content and there isn't cool things going forward and it's not with the money you pay for it. It just blows my mind. Yes, we all know the Thunderlord quest sucked, I don't know about saying it was broadcasted as this awesome thing... But I'm having fun every time I get on and there is no end to the amount of stuff I can do.

I've done about half of the ascendant challenges, I only just now completed the shattered throne last night, I haven't even finished some of the prestige raids on the leviathan. I spent hours just exploring the dreaming city in all it's awesome beauty with Dame a couple nights ago and it was FUN.

This whole thread is actually got me really worked up. I just honestly don't understand. To say I am angry or pissed off is too strong and direct. Emotions are bubbling out of me. I'm confused and astounded that we can sit here critiqueing and bemoaning a video, what could happen for future content, or the fact that people are making it sound like the very act if playing this game is allowing some evil entity to pluck the souls from honest gamers... It's just all so much negativity.

It blows my mind because I spend hours playing a game I love with old and new people I like playing with. Hours of enjoying a game that is honestly fracking beautiful and mind blowing in it's own right. Yeah, call me a fan boy or whatever, but all I hear on this post about this new content is the stereotypical food critic who is nitpicking so much that they lose sight of the fact they are still eating an amazing dish. It's infuriating to hear it over and over and over again. And not because it might actually be true at times but because it's the same thing from the people who are still playing the game. We have said it before on this forum, if Destiny is just not making you feel good then take a break or find a different game to play. But I'm honestly tired of hearing the negativity.

I'm going go play a fucking amazing game called Destiny.

In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face is that, in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so.

But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends.

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I have to disagree cody, removing light levels, progression, is what a lot of us are here for.

I love Bungie, I love Halo, I love what Halo did, but Destiny is different and I'm fine with Destiny being more MMO. Destiny 3 is coming out in 2 years and I cannot wait to see how they will drive progression and the mmo ceiling through the roof

Well, that's entirely different than how I expected English to work, to be honest

Sent from my iPhone (so excuse the misspellings and weird sentence structure due to autocomplete)

Nah, Zack's right - that's not really how English works, and it has nothing to do with autocomplete.

You basically said "I'm easy to please - let me just find a winning Powerball ticket on the ground outside my house."

You can't separate the difficulty of completing the task(s) required to satisfy your requirements from the need to please you - if what it takes to please you is getting rid of Eververse, light levels, and the investment system, then you are NOT easy to please, because satisfying those requirements is basically impossible.

From that point of view I see the point.

In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face is that, in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so.

But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends.

Which is why I still defend Vanquish as the decade’s masterpiece:-p

In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face is that, in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so.

But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends.

Which is why I still defend Vanquish as the decade’s masterpiece:-p

You’re right, releasing a game as derivative and un-fun as Vanquish is a risky move ;p

As ever, the problem is one of communication, messaging, and expectations.

Destiny is a fantastic, really fun game that still always manages to feel half-baked and sort of empty.

Let me start by reiterating the my post that you replied too--I love Destiny. Forsaken is the best Destiny has every been. There's so much to do, and it's the first time the game world feels like it's a living place, and like it's growing.

That's why I'm really excited to see what happens with the annual pass. If Forsaken is the template for the game moving forward, that's a great thing.

But the history of Destiny is littered with great things that just get abandoned. Look at all the quality of life stuff that came with the Taken King and Y3 of D1. The quest page is the big one. Why the fuck are we back to tracking individual quests in our inventories? It's stupid. Hell, to a lesser extent, that's what the milestones tab was, but instead of having that convenient tab, now the Director screen is a fucking mess of glowy shit.

And Bungie still has a hard time actually keeping things relevant. Why don't the old destination vendor armor sets have random rolls? You can still get those sets, but why would you handicap yourself by using them? Seems like a no-brainer to give those armor sets the new random roll perks and give us a reason to keep turning in planetary materials to those vendors.

Or, how about the ornament system? It was such a smart way to handle that stuff. You have one base armor set, with a new look for it to unlock every season. Early indications from data-mining seem to show that there are no new ornaments for Vanguard, Crucible or Gambit armors this season, and no new armor sets to replace them either. Why? It's an entire system that we had for a year and that was great, but it's been abandoned.

For as fun as Destiny is (and it is incredibly fun and compelling), it's still a game filled with missteps, and a lot of the forward progress feels half-baked. It's a loot game without enough loot--instead of giving us enough loot, they make everything take ages to grind for with poor RNG.

We all love Destiny--that's ostensibly why we're here. Voicing criticisms isn't negativity, and frankly, I'm far more annoyed with the folks trying to silence discussion of those criticisms under the guise of "can't we just be positive?"

For whatever it's worth, I'm not sure there's a need to have this discussion yet again, and it's not actually where I intended to go when I started writing this post. I just hate the "if you don't like it, quit playing it," mindest. We do like it! I love it! That doesn't mean I'm going to ignore its faults or stop hoping it could be better. Because I still firmly believe Bungie can do better, and Forsaken was the proof of that.

I certainly wouldn’t say here isn’t a lot to do. There’s a LOT. Even the strikes are super cool this time around.

The problem is locking things behind RNG, or the progression system. With all the cool stuff, there is so much stopping you from doing it. I mean, someone in the video said they were still 540 because he went on vacation. He literally could not damage enemies in the shattered throne! All because he had he audacity to not get every powerful gear milestone every week.

We all love Destiny--that's ostensibly why we're here. Voicing criticisms isn't negativity, and frankly, I'm far more annoyed with the folks trying to silence discussion of those criticisms under the guise of "can't we just be positive?"

It's true, criticism is not automatically the same thing as negativity. But criticism can be done in a negative way. It can be too unforgiving. It can be delivered with too much condescension or too much snark. It can leap to conclusions or can treat a worst case scenario too much like a most likely scenario.

At the same time, wanting to silence negativity is not automatically the same thing as wanting to silence criticism.

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At the same time, wanting to silence negativity is not automatically the same thing as wanting to silence criticism.

I'd be in favor of not trying to silence anyone, so long as they aren't breaking any of the forum's rules. The line between "negativity" and "criticism" is blurry at best, and up to a ceratin amount of interpretation in most cases. I find the constant pushes to silence people here on these forums far more problematic than any single sources of negativity. As far as negativity goes, there are several forum members who's posts I no longer click on, because I find their posts too negative or vitriolic to be constructive or worth discussing. So I skip them. Easy to do, and my personal choice to make. Far better than trying to silence the person just because I don't like their posts.

You don't have to read every single comment on these forums. None of us do, (except for the mods, possibly. Although even then I'd say they're fine to skip as many posts as they want. If a post shows up that is truly problematic, I'm sure it would get drawn to their attention real fast).

I find the constant pushes to silence people here on these forums far more problematic than any single sources of negativity.

Are you sure you're not overplaying things?

You choose to ignore posters you find disagreeable. But to you... the only acceptable option is for everyone to follow your lead? Nobody is allowed to comment on behavior you already acknowledge is not good? Is every single person who comments on a post you would have ignored a silencer? Is it possible to comment on a post you personally choose to ignore without trying to silence that poster? Is it ever acceptable to you for someone to comment on someone else's behavior around here?

Honestly, the game spins round and round. People don't like what someone says and comment on it... which you take as them trying to silence someone. So you then tell them to silence that criticism. Then someone can come and tell you to be silent, I suppose. I guess that would be me... except I was so glad when you came back and I still am. I don't want you to be silent! I read your posts specifically to get your take on things! But I do hope you'll reevaluate your words here because they could be seen as hurtful. They were to me.

A better position, I think, would be to acknowledge that we're all here in common enjoyment of a game, and though we have disagreements, nobody is actually looking to deny the other person the chance to share their opinions. Heck, I think most of us agree on most things. It's just things like tone and phrasing and snark that gets in the way on occasion.

A better position, I think, would be to acknowledge that we're all here in common enjoyment of a game, and though we have disagreements, nobody is actually looking to deny the other person the chance to share their opinions. Heck, I think most of us agree on most things. It's just things like tone and phrasing and snark that gets in the way on occasion.

I’m all for criticism offered in good faith. What I don’t like is consistent cynicism. That makes me wonder if they’re here in common enjoyment of the game or they just like being the guy who pisses in the punch bowl.

This is a place for the former. As such, we don’t have to be welcoming to the latter.

As ever, the problem is one of communication, messaging, and expectations.

Destiny is a fantastic, really fun game that still always manages to feel half-baked and sort of empty.

Let me start by reiterating the my post that you replied too--I love Destiny. Forsaken is the best Destiny has every been. There's so much to do, and it's the first time the game world feels like it's a living place, and like it's growing.

That's why I'm really excited to see what happens with the annual pass. If Forsaken is the template for the game moving forward, that's a great thing.

But the history of Destiny is littered with great things that just get abandoned. Look at all the quality of life stuff that came with the Taken King and Y3 of D1. The quest page is the big one. Why the fuck are we back to tracking individual quests in our inventories? It's stupid. Hell, to a lesser extent, that's what the milestones tab was, but instead of having that convenient tab, now the Director screen is a fucking mess of glowy shit.

And Bungie still has a hard time actually keeping things relevant. Why don't the old destination vendor armor sets have random rolls? You can still get those sets, but why would you handicap yourself by using them? Seems like a no-brainer to give those armor sets the new random roll perks and give us a reason to keep turning in planetary materials to those vendors.

Or, how about the ornament system? It was such a smart way to handle that stuff. You have one base armor set, with a new look for it to unlock every season. Early indications from data-mining seem to show that there are no new ornaments for Vanguard, Crucible or Gambit armors this season, and no new armor sets to replace them either. Why? It's an entire system that we had for a year and that was great, but it's been abandoned.

For as fun as Destiny is (and it is incredibly fun and compelling), it's still a game filled with missteps, and a lot of the forward progress feels half-baked. It's a loot game without enough loot--instead of giving us enough loot, they make everything take ages to grind for with poor RNG.

We all love Destiny--that's ostensibly why we're here. Voicing criticisms isn't negativity, and frankly, I'm far more annoyed with the folks trying to silence discussion of those criticisms under the guise of "can't we just be positive?"

For whatever it's worth, I'm not sure there's a need to have this discussion yet again, and it's not actually where I intended to go when I started writing this post. I just hate the "if you don't like it, quit playing it," mindest. We do like it! I love it! That doesn't mean I'm going to ignore its faults or stop hoping it could be better. Because I still firmly believe Bungie can do better, and Forsaken was the proof of that.

Let me start by saying this isn't pointed at any one person. I just replied to you cheapLEY because it was at the bottom and the last thing I read :D

My reply was about my own feelings about the state of Destiny and parts of this forum. I never said and do not wish to suppress anyone's voice on the subject of Destiny.

Some people have already commented on it, but I just want to add my on thoughts, that it's not about voicing criticism it's about how you do it. Yes, we are all different people with different ways of voicing our opinions, but I have to point out that we are also a community and how people talk affects others. I was trying to state, albeit in a gush of emotions and bad English, that the negative criticism was starting to affect me.

I personally feel that criticism is a very important thing, but I also feel that how you do it is almost just as important as doing to begin with. It's not different than having a debate with someone, if you can't have a reasonable debate to get your ideas and point across, what is the point other than venting negative feelings? Yes, venting is also a healthy thing if you aren't doing it all the time.

Your thoughts on Destiny above show more criticism for certain aspects of Destiny than most posts, but that is fine by me because you complement grievances with things that you like or you think that Bungie is still doing a good job at. That added bit turns it into constructive criticism from you, otherwise all it feels like to me is venting and bashing on Destiny. Again, that is in part a good thing at times, but if that becomes a normal reply it starts to become oppressive.

I want to also say that you point about reading some things and not others is a good idea, however it's unfortunate that we have to come to this. There are several people that I generally steer away from because of how they write. But the thing is is that those people also have great ideas that I also want to listen to. This is one more reason why I think we all need to think about how we present our ideas and criticism. There are times I have wanted to reply about a great topic, and I try, but it eventually comes to a point that it just feels like to much effort on my part to sift through all the stuff that to me seems unnecessary.

I still love this community and I am still staying with it. I'm just letting people know it's hard to participate in it sometimes. Which is unfortunate.

There are several people that I generally steer away from because of how they write.

Wait!? I'm several people! It's me! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! D:

(:P)

Who knows, maybe ditching campaign means more resources going into the raid lair, which would upgrade it to proper Raid status, but considering the way those resources are being spread into three DLCs this time, instead of two, it may be smaller than usual.

I have mixed feelings on this.

Bungie ditching a campaign is good in the sense that their storytelling has been embarrassingly poor in general with the Destiny games. However, the campaigns do present the setting to you, which somewhat contextualizes all the truly fun activities.

A game that is just raids or other challenging activities that lack story would lose something I think. We are beyond the time when challenge alone was the dominant driving factor in immersion. This worked with older games because they were not as sophisticated in their audiovisual presentation to immerse through aesthetics. But games now are. In some sense aesthetics are more effective at immersion than pure challenge. But as the aesthetics of the game are very sophisticated, they feel hollow if not accompanied by some kind of contextualization for their existence.

It may make the game 'better', but the game would be better still if it utilized every avenue for immersion. You could get away with games of pure challenge back in the day because everything else was primitive. But now we have moved on and challenge is not the most important thing anymore.

It may be the best fix right now, but ultimately Destiny needs a solid campaign and narrative to really shine.

Who knows, maybe ditching campaign means more resources going into the raid lair, which would upgrade it to proper Raid status, but considering the way those resources are being spread into three DLCs this time, instead of two, it may be smaller than usual.

I have mixed feelings on this.

Bungie ditching a campaign is good in the sense that their storytelling has been embarrassingly poor in general with the Destiny games. However, the campaigns do present the setting to you, which somewhat contextualizes all the truly fun activities.

A game that is just raids or other challenging activities that lack story would lose something I think. We are beyond the time when challenge alone was the dominant driving factor in immersion. This worked with older games because they were not as sophisticated in their audiovisual presentation to immerse through aesthetics. But games now are. In some sense aesthetics are more effective at immersion than pure challenge. But as the aesthetics of the game are very sophisticated, they feel hollow if not accompanied by some kind of contextualization for their existence.

It may make the game 'better', but the game would be better still if it utilized every avenue for immersion. You could get away with games of pure challenge back in the day because everything else was primitive. But now we have moved on and challenge is not the most important thing anymore.

It may be the best fix right now, but ultimately Destiny needs a solid campaign and narrative to really shine.

I don't think you actually need a full on campaign. As you said, you need context. Without knowing we are fighting a war (like the red one) the crucible doesn't make as much sense. Without seeing the queen and awoken and how prideful, reclusive and all that the dreaming city doesn't seem like a beautiful sanctuary. It all needs context and just seeing these people in the game and telling you clips of stuff doesn't do it all. You need missions that tell story. They don't need to be full on campaigns but we have to SEE these people and how they act to understand what this world is like.

Who knows, maybe ditching campaign means more resources going into the raid lair, which would upgrade it to proper Raid status, but considering the way those resources are being spread into three DLCs this time, instead of two, it may be smaller than usual.

I have mixed feelings on this.

Bungie ditching a campaign is good in the sense that their storytelling has been embarrassingly poor in general with the Destiny games. However, the campaigns do present the setting to you, which somewhat contextualizes all the truly fun activities.

A game that is just raids or other challenging activities that lack story would lose something I think. We are beyond the time when challenge alone was the dominant driving factor in immersion. This worked with older games because they were not as sophisticated in their audiovisual presentation to immerse through aesthetics. But games now are. In some sense aesthetics are more effective at immersion than pure challenge. But as the aesthetics of the game are very sophisticated, they feel hollow if not accompanied by some kind of contextualization for their existence.

It may make the game 'better', but the game would be better still if it utilized every avenue for immersion. You could get away with games of pure challenge back in the day because everything else was primitive. But now we have moved on and challenge is not the most important thing anymore.

It may be the best fix right now, but ultimately Destiny needs a solid campaign and narrative to really shine.

I don't think you actually need a full on campaign. As you said, you need context. Without knowing we are fighting a war (like the red one) the crucible doesn't make as much sense. Without seeing the queen and awoken and how prideful, reclusive and all that the dreaming city doesn't seem like a beautiful sanctuary. It all needs context and just seeing these people in the game and telling you clips of stuff doesn't do it all. You need missions that tell story. They don't need to be full on campaigns but we have to SEE these people and how they act to understand what this world is like.

Excellent points, both of you.

It actually reminds me of something folks were talking about a while back, with special regards to the "Just steak vs. Seasoning/sides/meal" metaphor, and SkillUp's talk about how cinematic quests like The Sacrifice are essential, even if they don't add new systems, loot, or gameplay content.

Bungie tossing story aside in favor of lore is a huge misstep that Bethesda just made with Fallout 76, and which clearly did not pay off, as the game's over-reliance on lore has led to a soulless world, and which removed any sense of agency, because you aren't being driven to accomplish something that will push the story forward, you're just looking backwards.

I don't have an issue with lore. I have never disliked stuff like audiotapes, environmental storytelling, books, or Lore Tabs. These are all the "noble pursuits" in storytelling; essential to flesh out your world, give players understanding, and giving context to the status quo... But we need cinematic quests involving us, so that we can feel a sense of importance or progress.

Sure, we can do a raid lair or two without meaningful context, and that'll be fun... But after a while, it's just another item on a weekly checklist that we aren't invested in (Spire of Stars, anyone?). And what has changed afterwards that can give players a sense of story progression? Like you said, what can give us a sense of immersion, and a feeling of impact?

Who knows, maybe ditching campaign means more resources going into the raid lair, which would upgrade it to proper Raid status, but considering the way those resources are being spread into three DLCs this time, instead of two, it may be smaller than usual.

I have mixed feelings on this.

Bungie ditching a campaign is good in the sense that their storytelling has been embarrassingly poor in general with the Destiny games. However, the campaigns do present the setting to you, which somewhat contextualizes all the truly fun activities.

A game that is just raids or other challenging activities that lack story would lose something I think. We are beyond the time when challenge alone was the dominant driving factor in immersion. This worked with older games because they were not as sophisticated in their audiovisual presentation to immerse through aesthetics. But games now are. In some sense aesthetics are more effective at immersion than pure challenge. But as the aesthetics of the game are very sophisticated, they feel hollow if not accompanied by some kind of contextualization for their existence.

It may make the game 'better', but the game would be better still if it utilized every avenue for immersion. You could get away with games of pure challenge back in the day because everything else was primitive. But now we have moved on and challenge is not the most important thing anymore.

It may be the best fix right now, but ultimately Destiny needs a solid campaign and narrative to really shine.

I don't think you actually need a full on campaign. As you said, you need context. Without knowing we are fighting a war (like the red one) the crucible doesn't make as much sense. Without seeing the queen and awoken and how prideful, reclusive and all that the dreaming city doesn't seem like a beautiful sanctuary. It all needs context and just seeing these people in the game and telling you clips of stuff doesn't do it all. You need missions that tell story. They don't need to be full on campaigns but we have to SEE these people and how they act to understand what this world is like.

Excellent points, both of you.

It actually reminds me of something folks were talking about a while back, with special regards to the "Just steak vs. Seasoning/sides/meal" metaphor, and SkillUp's talk about how cinematic quests like The Sacrifice are essential, even if they don't add new systems, loot, or gameplay content.

Bungie tossing story aside in favor of lore is a huge misstep that Bethesda just made with Fallout 76, and which clearly did not pay off, as the game's over-reliance on lore has led to a soulless world, and which removed any sense of agency, because you aren't being driven to accomplish something that will push the story forward, you're just looking backwards.

I don't have an issue with lore. I have never disliked stuff like audiotapes, environmental storytelling, books, or Lore Tabs. These are all the "noble pursuits" in storytelling; essential to flesh out your world, give players understanding, and giving context to the status quo... But we need cinematic quests involving us, so that we can feel a sense of importance or progress.

Sure, we can do a raid lair or two without meaningful context, and that'll be fun... But after a while, it's just another item on a weekly checklist that we aren't invested in (Spire of Stars, anyone?). And what has changed afterwards that can give players a sense of story progression? Like you said, what can give us a sense of immersion, and a feeling of impact?

I actually thought that the Leviathan was great story that added to Destiny. The Leviathan raid lairs did not. I'm all for them doing lairs and what not, but I need reason to do them outside why we are actually pursuing in the raid. Leviathan was more than Callus testing us in his games, it was about callus, the cabal, who he is to them and a character that was basically outside the light/darkness we are so use to seeing. THAT is what I want to see. Context for doing a raid is important, but to have a raid experience in the middle of world like Destiny and not know why it's there is not what I want. Also, Last Wish is another great example :D

I don't have an issue with lore. I have never disliked stuff like audiotapes, environmental storytelling, books, or Lore Tabs.

I have issue with some of those except for the environmental storytelling.

Take audio tapes, which more often than not do not make sense within the game world. Who would leave these recordings around, and say the things that they say? Rarely does it make sense that if the world were real a character would do that.

Same thing with the lore tab. I kill 4 guardians on invasion and now I can read some lore. But how does that make sense within the world?! Where is that text 'coming' from?

Environmental storytelling and the ability to talk with characters using dialogue trees solve these problems.

I'm looking at you sunshot catalyst that I never got last faction rally and now have no opportunity to get.

They actually said there'd be more chances to get those catalysts; it hasn't happened yet, and maybe they've changed their minds and simply not told us yet, but i'd guess the chance will come again.

So even though they said that there would be a way to get the Catalysts after Faction Rally 3, and promised to tell us how before Summer was over, it turns out that it was all a lie!

Forsaken came and went with radio silence, and now, dmg04 confirmed on Twitter that you won't be able to get the Catalysts this season either, meaning that you'll have to wait until March or April at the absolute earliest for news on when you will be able to.

I forgot all about those, honestly.