First Bungie, and now QD. According to VentureBeat, NetEase has gotten a minority stake in QD to bring the normally PS-exclusive developer to more platforms (Heavy Rain on mobile? It could work! Though according to Cage, it will be more focused on the "next generation of games").
Looks like Bungie was just a small piece of their Western-developer push.

So do we still hate QD over their allegations, or is this great news for the future? Will "2 Beyond 2 Souls" have microtransactions?

So do we still hate QD over their allegations, or is this great news for the future? Will "2 Beyond 2 Souls" have microtransactions?

Didn't QD lose the court case, making those allegations more than allegations?

So do we still hate QD over their allegations, or is this great news for the future? Will "2 Beyond 2 Souls" have microtransactions?

Didn't QD lose the court case, making those allegations more than allegations?

They lost it over the whole photomontage case against the one employee. The sexual harrassment, discrimination, and wrongful termination allegations from others are still just that.

First Bungie, and now QD. According to VentureBeat, NetEase has gotten a minority stake in QD to bring the normally PS-exclusive developer to more platforms (Heavy Rain on mobile? It could work! Though according to Cage, it will be more focused on the "next generation of games").
Looks like Bungie was just a small piece of their Western-developer push.

So do we still hate QD over their allegations, or is this great news for the future? Will "2 Beyond 2 Souls" have microtransactions?

To be fair adventure games on mobile tend to work okay, and discounting the small screen and speakers, sometimes just as well as on console or PC.

So do we still hate QD over their allegations, or is this great news for the future? Will "2 Beyond 2 Souls" have microtransactions?

Didn't QD lose the court case, making those allegations more than allegations?

They lost it over the whole photomontage case against the one employee. The sexual harrassment, discrimination, and wrongful termination allegations from others are still just that.

Ah ok, thanks for the clarification.

The allegations definitely don’t make me love them, that’s for sure.

But they make shit games, so I wouldn’t play them anyway.

The allegations definitely don’t make me love them, that’s for sure.

But they make shit games, so I wouldn’t play them anyway.

Their games have shit stories. But as far as the mechanics go, they are fairly sophisticated. Although supermassive beat everyone by a large margin with Until Dawn.

They’re mechanically uninteresting. Yes, the actual decision trees and paths are cool and more complex than most that I’m aware of, but the actual mechanics of playing the game are on par with any Telltale game or Life is Strange. Worse in many cases.

I guess keep in mind I played Heavy Rain and gave up after a few hours of Beyond Two Souls.

Looks like Bungie was just a small piece of their Western-developer push.

Hope it stays that way. The less attention Bungie gets from them, the better off they will be, I think. You're not independent when somebody else owns you-- even part of you.

So do we still hate QD over their allegations, or is this great news for the future? Will "2 Beyond 2 Souls" have microtransactions?

I do think that video was about the creepiest possible way to make that announcement.

Looks like Bungie was just a small piece of their Western-developer push.

Hope it stays that way. The less attention Bungie gets from them, the better off they will be, I think. You're not independent when somebody else owns you-- even part of you.

Then nobody is independent…

Make a console game? Sony or MS could refuse cert and now you can’t sell.
Make a mobile game? Apple could pull it from the store.
Make a PC game? You rely Microsoft APIs and windows software.

Unless you control literally everything then someone owns a piece of you in a sense.

Looks like Bungie was just a small piece of their Western-developer push.

Hope it stays that way. The less attention Bungie gets from them, the better off they will be, I think. You're not independent when somebody else owns you-- even part of you.

Then nobody is independent…

Make a console game? Sony or MS could refuse cert and now you can’t sell.
Make a mobile game? Apple could pull it from the store.
Make a PC game? You rely Microsoft APIs and windows software.

Unless you control literally everything then someone owns a piece of you in a sense.

Wrong. Limiting your distribution options is not ownership of your product. From Adult-only weeb games to Metro: Exodus, distributors can be denied any power over your product's distribution just as easily as they can deny distributing it. It's still 100% your product if you're independent, and while that may limit your audience, you always have the freedom to find another distributor, or do it yourself (While Warframe is mainly associated with Steam, it is also available on Discord, and even if both were to fall through, DE has their own personal launcher for it).

Contracts, however, are whole other level of control over your product, and do blur those lines a bit.

Even if you own your own business, you are not completely independent.

That was what Obama meant with his famous ‘you didn’t build that’ comment. Your ability to even create and distribute a game at all is reliant upon many things which you do not own or did not create.

- No text -

- No text -

Then nobody is independent…

JFC man.

Make a console game? Sony or MS could refuse cert and now you can’t sell.

That does not give them ownership of your company.

Make a mobile game? Apple could pull it from the store.

Yes, but that does not transfer shares in your company to them.

Make a PC game? You rely Microsoft APIs and windows software.

Yes, but that does not mean they own you. That's why you actually have to pay to buy something, and why Bungie went to such lengths to extricate itself from being owned by Microsoft.

Or else, hey, why bother-- since everybody you're engaged with in the industry exercises some level of control or influence on you, then one is just the same as the other, right? Ownership, control, influence, what's the difference, right?

Unless you control literally everything then someone owns a piece of you in a sense.

Only in the sense that words mean nothing. I mean, in a sense, we all own Bungie. Unless, you know, the word "own" actually has a specific meaning, one that was very clear.

So let me make what I mean, exactly, clear.

MSFT owned Bungie. They still own a part of it. Bungie went to considerable efforts to become independent enough-- to not have enough of its shares owned by another developer, publisher or platform owner.

The Activision deal was consistent with that, because unless Bungie seriously missed milestones, they had control over their own corporate governance and their intellectual property.

The NetEase investment is not consistent with that, because it was an investment, not a development deal. Because Bungie is private and closely held, we don't know how much interest or control they have, or how much of their control and influence they intend to exercise.

With the ATVI deal over, and Bungie now has to self-publish, we don't know if Bungie will have to continue down this road-- as they did in the 90s when they sold shares to TTWO.

That said, I think Bungie has shown considerable savvy in this area and I think they know what they are doing. I hope their agreements with NetEase are airtight is all.

Whether Quantic is savvy enough to protect itself well enough remains to be seen, and I also think we have not really seen NetEase try to exercise all the influence they could over their Western development holdings. That may come yet.

- No text -

Even if you own your own business, you are not completely independent.

You are literally "all lives mattering" this phrase now. Yes, ALL lives matter. Yes, NO ONE is "completely independent". After all, you know, gravity.

"Independent" can mean a lot of things. Nobody is suggesting it ever means "completely independent" in the sense of having no other entities that influence, control, or affect you.

In this case it refers to company ownership or to particular publishing and partnership agreements that restrict the choices that a company's management may make, specifically with regard to intellectual property ownership and development platforms.

In particular, Bungie from 2001-2010 and Quantic from 2010-2018 were restricted in similar, but not identical ways.

Bungie was owned by a platform owner (Microsoft) and so restricted to developing titles approved by that ownership, for platforms owned by their owner.

Quantic's games (Heavy Rain, Beyond: Two Souls and David Cage: Become Human) were published by Sony as platform exclusives.

These restrictions are similar, but not identical.

Both companies chose to announce their "independence" from those restrictions in similar ways. Quantic's video refers to themselves as "independent" while Bungie, having already declared their independence in 2010, chose to make "self-publishing" the descriptor for their latest change.

Both situations, it appear, were enabled by investments in their companies by NetEase. Presumably NetEase receives consideration for these investments.

That was what Obama meant with his famous ‘you didn’t build that’ comment. Your ability to even create and distribute a game at all is reliant upon many things which you do not own or did not create.

Yes, but in this case "reliant on" is a much weaker definition than "independent from" which I am using strictly in either an ownership or exclusivity agreement sense, mostly because discussing such transactions in a more general sense is unproductive.

bUnGiE iSnT iNdePeNdEnT bEcAuSe ThEy HaVe To ReLy On ThEiR fAnS tO bUy ThEiR gAmE

Well now that Bungie is ‘independent’ again from Actision we should be seeing cross saves and lack of PS4 exclusives any day now.

Right?

RIGHT?!!!

Well now that Bungie is ‘independent’ again from Actision we should be seeing cross saves and lack of PS4 exclusives any day now.

Right?

RIGHT?!!!

I mean, they are still deploying their game on PS and Xbox, where both of them want to control the player base... So I don't think it's completely up to Bungie.

Well now that Bungie is ‘independent’ again from Actision we should be seeing cross saves and lack of PS4 exclusives any day now.

Right?

RIGHT?!!!

Remember how I mentioned that contracts blur the lines?
Yeah, those things are contract-related.

Safe to say, while Bungie has to honor the existing PS exclusives contract for the remainder of this year, they likely won't be renewing it come Fall. In fact, have you noticed that the Annual Pass has had zero PS-exclusive content so far? I mean, it barely has content as it is, but still not one piece has been exclusive, unlike the days when even the April update came with exclusives.

Well now that Bungie is ‘independent’ again from Actision we should be seeing cross saves and lack of PS4 exclusives any day now.

Right?

RIGHT?!!!

I mean, they are still deploying their game on PS and Xbox, where both of them want to control the player base... So I don't think it's completely up to Bungie.

Your character is saved on Bungie’s servers… and all versions of the game can connect to said servers… so yeah it’s up to Bungie.

In fact, have you noticed that the Annual Pass has had zero PS-exclusive content so far?

I have not since I have not bought nor played anything in the annual pass… but if that’s the case it is promising in this regard.

Well now that Bungie is ‘independent’ again from Actision we should be seeing cross saves and lack of PS4 exclusives any day now.

Right?

RIGHT?!!!

I mean, they are still deploying their game on PS and Xbox, where both of them want to control the player base... So I don't think it's completely up to Bungie.

Your character is saved on Bungie’s servers… and all versions of the game can connect to said servers… so yeah it’s up to Bungie.

Just because that is how it's stored and it's possible to do it doesn't mean Sony and Microsoft will let Bungie do it. Meaning, they still have clout with them, they have the hardware. Both are required.

- No text -

Sort of.

DE directly addressed crossplay on their last devstream, saying that while it has always been a goal, and Sony's crossplay Beta is slowly expanding, existing contracts between Sony and Microsoft were preventing it, and that it would take some real re-negotiation of those to make it remotely possible to implement.

The one ray of hope was Steve saying that a possible workaround would be account migration between platforms, which they've already done before between PS4 and PC, and PC and Switch (account data is stored on their system, and you can link the different platform accounts together, much like Bungie does).
To be able to do it freely, however, you run into a lot of issues involving real-world purchases made on one platform not transferring over (such as fan-made content, which can only be purchased with real money, and is a massive part of the game's monetization), but it would be a "better than nothing" solution.

- No text -

Sort of.

DE directly addressed crossplay on their last devstream, saying that while it has always been a goal, and Sony's crossplay Beta is slowly expanding, existing contracts between Sony and Microsoft were preventing it, and that it would take some real re-negotiation of those to make it remotely possible to implement.

The one ray of hope was Steve saying that a possible workaround would be account migration between platforms, which they've already done before between PS4 and PC, and PC and Switch (account data is stored on their system, and you can link the different platform accounts together, much like Bungie does).
To be able to do it freely, however, you run into a lot of issues involving real-world purchases made on one platform not transferring over (such as fan-made content, which can only be purchased with real money, and is a massive part of the game's monetization), but it would be a "better than nothing" solution.

Guess I don't care about that. For those who want to, let us choose the account we want to keep across all platforms and wipe everything else out. I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Regarding DE, not sure how relevant Warframe is to Destiny. I have zero interest in their particular issues.

Sort of.

DE directly addressed crossplay on their last devstream, saying that while it has always been a goal, and Sony's crossplay Beta is slowly expanding, existing contracts between Sony and Microsoft were preventing it, and that it would take some real re-negotiation of those to make it remotely possible to implement.

The one ray of hope was Steve saying that a possible workaround would be account migration between platforms, which they've already done before between PS4 and PC, and PC and Switch (account data is stored on their system, and you can link the different platform accounts together, much like Bungie does).
To be able to do it freely, however, you run into a lot of issues involving real-world purchases made on one platform not transferring over (such as fan-made content, which can only be purchased with real money, and is a massive part of the game's monetization), but it would be a "better than nothing" solution.

I wonder if that's what'll happen. That Bungie will wait until there are no exclusives anymore and boom, cross progression is available. Even so, they already have equipment requirements for specific activities, so (ignoring effort) it seems like it'd be possible to enforce platform specific gear before someone starts any activity on that platform.

Sort of.

DE directly addressed crossplay on their last devstream, saying that while it has always been a goal, and Sony's crossplay Beta is slowly expanding, existing contracts between Sony and Microsoft were preventing it, and that it would take some real re-negotiation of those to make it remotely possible to implement.

The one ray of hope was Steve saying that a possible workaround would be account migration between platforms, which they've already done before between PS4 and PC, and PC and Switch (account data is stored on their system, and you can link the different platform accounts together, much like Bungie does).
To be able to do it freely, however, you run into a lot of issues involving real-world purchases made on one platform not transferring over (such as fan-made content, which can only be purchased with real money, and is a massive part of the game's monetization), but it would be a "better than nothing" solution.

I wonder if that's what'll happen. That Bungie will wait until there are no exclusives anymore and boom, cross progression is available. Even so, they already have equipment requirements for specific activities, so (ignoring effort) it seems like it'd be possible to enforce platform specific gear before someone starts any activity on that platform.

They already handled this with 360 vs. Xbone pre-order bonus differences.

DE directly addressed crossplay on their last devstream, saying that while it has always been a goal, and Sony's crossplay Beta is slowly expanding, existing contracts between Sony and Microsoft were preventing it, and that it would take some real re-negotiation of those to make it remotely possible to implement.

But we are talking about cross saves, not cross play.

I'm just not seeing the reason… all each version of the game does is look up your character on the server. So what does it matter if the other platform does the same thing? Neither the PS4 nor the Xbox apps have to talk to each other… they talk to bungie.net which is the same as now.

This doesn't require cross communication between platforms. If I post a link to a jpeg, my Mac doesn't have to talk to a PC for both of us to view it. From the point of view of each platform's code, they are doing the same thing they always have and only talking to the server.

If there is a contractual veto on this than whoever wrote that contract is a fucking dick.

To be able to do it freely, however, you run into a lot of issues involving real-world purchases made on one platform not transferring over (such as fan-made content, which can only be purchased with real money, and is a massive part of the game's monetization), but it would be a "better than nothing" solution.

Guess I don't care about that. For those who want to, let us choose the account we want to keep across all platforms and wipe everything else out. I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Easy for you, maybe not as much for others, especially those who have plenty of time and money invested into multiple platforms. And what happens to our Eververse purchases?

Regarding DE, not sure how relevant Warframe is to Destiny. I have zero interest in their particular issues.

Look at it this way. If your account is shared between platforms in Destiny, you won't have access to anything that was acquired through Eververse. At the very least, anything that was purchased with Silver or Silver Dust that came from a direct result of Silver-purchased engrams. How would they be able to discern from earned dust and purchased dust? They wouldn't, I don't think, so they'd probably just wipe that due to contractual obligation, and you'd be locked out on one platform, since you didn't make the purchase from them (this includes nullifying your existing Silver on the migrated platform). DE has pointed that out as one real, existing issue, so Bungie would no doubt run into it as well, and not everyone is Kermit, so for a lot of people, that's a big deal.

DE directly addressed crossplay on their last devstream, saying that while it has always been a goal, and Sony's crossplay Beta is slowly expanding, existing contracts between Sony and Microsoft were preventing it, and that it would take some real re-negotiation of those to make it remotely possible to implement.

But we are talking about cross saves, not cross play.

I'm just not seeing the reason… all each version of the game does is look up your character on the server. So what does it matter if the other platform does the same thing? Neither the PS4 nor the Xbox apps have to talk to each other… they talk to bungie.net which is the same as now.

This doesn't require cross communication between platforms. If I post a link to a jpeg, my Mac doesn't have to talk to a PC for both of us to view it. From the point of view of each platform's code, they are doing the same thing they always have and only talking to the server.

Alright, you did good reading the first half of my post, congrats! Now read the second part.

Look at it this way. If your account is shared between platforms in Destiny, you won't have access to anything that was acquired through Eververse. At the very least, anything that was purchased with Silver or Silver Dust that came from a direct result of Silver-purchased engrams. How would they be able to discern from earned dust and purchased dust? They wouldn't, I don't think, so they'd probably just wipe that due to contractual obligation, and you'd be locked out on one platform, since you didn't make the purchase from them. DE has pointed that out as one real, existing issue, so Bungie would no doubt run into it as well, and not everyone is Kermit, so for a lot of people, that's a big deal.

LOL you are so right. This has got to be the reason.

Microtransactions everybody!

Alright, you did good reading the first half of my post, congrats! Now read the second part.

Don't tell me what to do. :-p

There are solutions to cosmetics if they apply themselves. It could be as simple as greying out items if they were purchased on a platform you are not currently playing on, and tracking bright dust on a per platform basis.

- No text -

Alright, you did good reading the first half of my post, congrats! Now read the second part.

Don't tell me what to do. :-p

There are solutions to cosmetics if they apply themselves.

I think there could be, but Eververse is going to be a pain either way, especially now, with Bungie self-publishing, where I feel like cosmetic microtransactions are going to pop up in a big way more than ever (just last week, Bungie was taking requests on Twitter for new Emotes, which are probably their most cost-effective Microtransaction besides Ghost projections).

I'd be okay with getting to pick a handful of Eververse cosmetics to bring over, and having to re-earn the rest. I already know more or less which I'd bring. Do remember that a lot of their Eververse content was seasonal, and there is currently no way to re-acquire a lot of it.

But anyway, nothing will likely happen until the Exclusives contract ends and they're fully able to implement their own game philosophy.

Looking it up, it seems to work like this:

V-bucks (the game's premium currency) don't transfer between platforms unless they were earned through gameplay. Same for Battle Pass content. You can unlock stuff with your V-bucks on one platform, and unlocked content does carry over freely, but you don't make progress for the unlocks across different platforms. You do get a notification telling you how many V-bucks you have on another platform, but there is no way to transfer it., and any bonuses that the Battle Pass gives you (XP boosts or whatever) are unavailable unless you play on the platform that you bought them on.

In Destiny terms, Eververse content acquired with Silver or Silver Dust would transfer, but none of your silver or Silver-obtained dust would. On top of that, the content would not be knocked out on your Prismatic Facet, so you'd have to fill out that "progress bar" separately.

Slightly annoying, but understandable. It would mean that a lot of your Silver would go to waste on the new platform by rewarding you with content that you already had (which would be increasingly annoying as they add new content to the Bright Engram pool), but it's a fair trade, I feel.

- No text -

- No text -

I think you and I had this conversation once before, but . . .

I still think the best play would be for every platform to just let it ride. Let microtransaction stuff just be account wide, no matter the platform. It'd all even out, eventually, I think. I would hazard a guess that most people probably only have one console anyway, so they'd obviously just spend the money on that console.

Those with multiple platforms would spend money anywhere, I think. If I was playing on PS4 and saw a cosmetic I wanted, I'd just buy it there (if I knew that it would still remain with me when I switched to another platform for an evening). I have no way to back it up, but I feel like most people would do the same. I don't think many would intentionally switch platforms just to buy something. It would spread that microtransaction money around. If they keep that stuff platform specific, it just ensures that I will switch to my preferred platform to spend money. So, if you're Sony, you get none of my sweet dollars, as I'd buy everything on Xbox. But if they just let it go wherever, I'd be just as likely to give that 30% cut to Sony as I would Microsoft. I think it would mostly equalize.

Imagine the goldmine that cosmetics exclusively bought on one console but still wearable on others would be.

Imagine the goldmine that cosmetics exclusively bought on one console but still wearable on others would be.

Yeah, I thought about that, too, when Fortnite crossplay was the hot thing being discussed.

Like, why wouldn't Sony want their exclusive outfits showing up on the Switch or Xbox or PC?

"Hey, where'd you get that?"

"Oh, you have to play on PS4 to get it."

"Oh, shit, I guess I'll go play over there for a week!"

Alright, you did good reading the first half of my post, congrats! Now read the second part.

Don't tell me what to do. :-p

There are solutions to cosmetics if they apply themselves.

I think there could be, but Eververse is going to be a pain either way, especially now, with Bungie self-publishing, where I feel like cosmetic microtransactions are going to pop up in a big way more than ever (just last week, Bungie was taking requests on Twitter for new Emotes, which are probably their most cost-effective Microtransaction besides Ghost projections).

I'd be okay with getting to pick a handful of Eververse cosmetics to bring over, and having to re-earn the rest. I already know more or less which I'd bring. Do remember that a lot of their Eververse content was seasonal, and there is currently no way to re-acquire a lot of it.

But anyway, nothing will likely happen until the Exclusives contract ends and they're fully able to implement their own game philosophy.

It would be a shame if they let Eververse be the hold up. I couldn't care less about it. Make cosmetics/silver dust platform-dependent, non-tranferrable, whatever they have to. It's a small price to pay. I think they'd still sell more copies of the game.

I’m with you, but that’s probably not easy. Think of all the Eververse items you have. Shaders, ghosts, transmat effects, ships, sparrows, weapon and armor ornaments, armor, emotes.

What happens to those if they’re equipped and you sign in on another platform? They’d probably have to get auto-vaulted and locked somehow. That’s a messy solution, and it means now I have to spend ten minutes every time I sign in picking the right gear. That’s without even considering how difficult that might be to accomplish from their end.

If that’s the cost of being able to platform hop, I’ll take it, but I hope they could figure something else out.

I’m with you, but that’s probably not easy. Think of all the Eververse items you have. Shaders, ghosts, transmat effects, ships, sparrows, weapon and armor ornaments, armor, emotes.

What happens to those if they’re equipped and you sign in on another platform? They’d probably have to get auto-vaulted and locked somehow. That’s a messy solution, and it means now I have to spend ten minutes every time I sign in picking the right gear. That’s without even considering how difficult that might be to accomplish from their end.

If that’s the cost of being able to platform hop, I’ll take it, but I hope they could figure something else out.

I mean it's basically all down to who gets the money right? And of course the console exclusives... But if you iron that out from the get go that shouldn't be as hard. Basically what they need to do is have a contract that states a percentage of the micro-transactions going forward. Then all items could be transferred right?

Am I missing something here? I mean getting the console giants to sign that deal might not be easy, but I feel like that needs to be a standard from the start of a game going forward.

I’m with you, but that’s probably not easy. Think of all the Eververse items you have. Shaders, ghosts, transmat effects, ships, sparrows, weapon and armor ornaments, armor, emotes.

What happens to those if they’re equipped and you sign in on another platform? They’d probably have to get auto-vaulted and locked somehow. That’s a messy solution, and it means now I have to spend ten minutes every time I sign in picking the right gear. That’s without even considering how difficult that might be to accomplish from their end.

If that’s the cost of being able to platform hop, I’ll take it, but I hope they could figure something else out.

I said this earlier but they've already handled it. I had D1 bonus items that showed up on one Xbox platform but not the other. They just swapped it out with another item in that category. The exception was ships, which would be invisible.

I mean it's basically all down to who gets the money right? And of course the console exclusives... But if you iron that out from the get go that shouldn't be as hard. Basically what they need to do is have a contract that states a percentage of the micro-transactions going forward. Then all items could be transferred right?

Am I missing something here? I mean getting the console giants to sign that deal might not be easy, but I feel like that needs to be a standard from the start of a game going forward.

Let the platforms continue to sell silver for their platform. Have silver wallets stay platform-dependent. The console guys would get their share. Once items are bought, let them be transferable or don't. Don't care myself. Definitely care more about just having cross-saves.

It would be a shame if they let Eververse be the hold up. I couldn't care less about it. Make cosmetics/silver dust platform-dependent, non-tranferrable, whatever they have to. It's a small price to pay. I think they'd still sell more copies of the game.

Can confirm...at least ONE more copy, anyway. I LOVE playing Destiny 2 on the PC, but I haven't picked up Forsaken for PC because I love raiding even more and there just aren't enough DBOers regularly on PC to get a raid group. If I could play on PC any time I wanted to just screw around playing solo stuff and then jump over to Xbox on raid nights, I wouldn't even think twice about picking up every expansion and season pass on both platforms as soon as they're released.

Which reminds me, I should really jump back in long enough to grab Whisper on PC. Snipers are so much more useful with mouse and keyboard :)

-Disciple

Despite the irrelevant examples Cody gave, even just talking equity, it’s true that “nobody” is independent in that sense. Very few people have the money to 100% Self finance a game of any significant scope. Nor should they take that risk alone, really.