I feel like we've been here before.

Lol, seriously. How is Bungie so bad at this?

I think this is an okay change. I wish Whisper didn't exist. It either trivializes every encounter, or it makes encounters require Whisper to complete. I'll be glad when they can design encounters without having to worry about Whisper breaking them.

I have gotten up to Shiro Chi.

Without spoiling the raids (like it matters now but whatever), are there any boss encounters in either Riven or Scourge that differ from the “Boss has lot of health with a burn period” formula?

"No fun allowed"?

I suppose it depends on whether you find sniper rifles fun. To me, sniper rifles, especially the Exotics ones with infinite ammo, always turned Destiny (1&2) into a "who has the exotic sniper rifle" game instead of a game of tactics or weapons diversity. Nobody likes narrowly failing boss encounters, but if bosses all but require the use of one or two weapons, then I'd say the boss battle is set up wrong. A team's ability to focus DPS should be important, but the team shouldn't fail because someone dared use a weapon not at the very tip top of the meta.

I personally find DARCI to be a far more interesting sniper than Whisper because it's actually good for adds as well as boss DPS. It's also forgiving.

Likewise, I'm very glad to hear than Exotics that grant Super energy are being nerfed. In some Raid encounter, it almost felt like having a Hunter with Shadow Shot and Orpheus Rigs notably was completely manditory, the fight against Shuro Chi in particular, and that never sat well with me. What happened from my point of view is I followed behind the teammate with the "if I miss my Super we might as well start over" Hunter and did not risk shooting anything lest they didn't get their Super back. The only times I felt like I got to contribute were when the Hunter did miss. It kinda sucked.

Overpowered weapons and Supers can be a lot of fun for those who rack up the highest numbers on the scoreboard or are the key players in encounters. But, if things are too unbalanced, the people not using those essential weapons or powers can feel like they are dead weight being pulled along. For a long time Titans didn't even have an Exotic that gave back Super energy, for instance. Where's the fun in some people getting Super after Super after Super on repeat in the amount of time it takes others to recharge their Super once?

It could be that these nerfs go too far, but not every nerf is a Bungie vs. Fun situation. It will be interesting to see what the community thinks of these changes... before and after they actually experience them.

I agree with all of this. Yes, I main a Titan, that is why I agree with this, but I also play a hunter. Although I have a lot of fun with tether, I really do think rigs needs a nerf.

...I'm very glad to hear than Exotics that grant Super energy are being nerfed. In some Raid encounter, it almost felt like having a Hunter with Shadow Shot and Orpheus Rigs notably was completely manditory, the fight against Shuro Chi in particular, and that never sat well with me.

As a nearly full-time Hunter, I totally agree. I'd rather run more interesting supers, but Shadow Shot is usually best for the team as it effectively turns an entire crowd of enemies into a single add and generates a ton of orbs for everyone. My biggest issue with the update, though, is probably this...

these items are so overwhelmingly strong in situations where players face off against large numbers of enemies, some activities were designed considering the use of armor such as Orpheus Rigs, Phoenix Protocol, Skull of Dire Ahamkara, etc.

We are making some changes to these armor pieces to try to preserve their power fantasy and still leave them as viable choices for difficult activities without making players feel like they must have them equipped or be at a huge disadvantage.

They mention that encounters had to be designed around overpowered gear, and that they're fixing this overpowered gear, but don't mention fixing the encounters that are currently designed for gear that won't exist after the update.

Are they going to scale back the number of enemies in encounters like Shuro Chi, so that tethers aren't as necessary to meet the tight time limit, or are they going to leave the encounter as-is and just make it so now you need more Hunters running Opulance Rigs (as I will now and forevermore be referring to the new, nerfed Orpheus Rigs) to make sure there are enough tethers for add control?

-Disciple

Damn.

I should have jumped in and found team to roll with. Probably would have been easier to get those extra 102 points I need for Fabled going against a bunch of solos just doing the quest.

Wow. Déjà Vu is right.

So that’s why it wasn’t working yesterday, and there goes my only chance of soloing Shattered Throne.

So yeah, anti-fun.

Um...

that change doesn't happen until June 4. If something wasn't working yesterday, it had nothing to do with any of this.

Bouncing Sleeper Shots isn’t exactly easy to pull off correctly either

Except for on that one Hydra boss from the Black Armory. That's hilarious enough to be left alone, though, in my book.

But, you're right, and it's a direction I wish Bungie would explore. Make things unique and interesting, with neat mechanics that reward exploring the edges a bit more and actually learning stuff and improving skill, rather than "the number got bigger" and "this just does huge DPS." Being powerful on its own can be fun, but it's not nearly as fun as playing with something cool and interesting that gives the base mechanics of Destiny a neat twist.

I think some of these nerfs are required, though. The hardest encounters in the game are designed in such a way that I couldn't use Trinity Ghoul (near the top of my favorite exotics--it's just fun!), because I couldn't afford to lose out on the sheer DPS of Whisper or Sleeper. It's honestly why I don't think there are many fun boss encounters in Destiny--they're mostly just DPS checks with few actual combat challenges. You just have to not die and deal massive amounts of damage--it's not exactly interesting.

I disagree about Whisper being difficult to use. Plenty of bosses do nothing but stand there stupidly--see half of Gambit's bosses, the Ogre in Last Wish, the final boss in Scourge of the Past, Calus (granted, Whisper didn't exist when he was designed).

A reasonable supposition is that bouncing sleeper shots would somehow wreck in the new raid, so the nerf is pre-emptive. I can picture an encounter where lining up a ricochet is very easy and rather than redesign it they just nerf sleeper.

On the other hand, there are far too many instances where the boss battles are no fun because players are able to melt bosses within a few seconds. One phasing the Last Wish Ogre? Or Callus? Or outright killing Inverted Spire or Warden of Nothing or the A Garden World bosses before they even get to attack? That’s terribly boring.

I loved the fiery room mechanic of the flaming Servitor, where you have to hide as the various old Prison of Elders bosses are announced and fight you. But now, especially as the more powerful heavy weapons have been introduced, two players Whispering that boss kill it I almost immediately and I never get to play the rest of the Strike.

So, there’s actually two issues here: Poorly designed bosses and overpowered weapons.

If Bungie intends for us to play an entire encounter, it needs to build in damage caps and phases into the bosses. We see these in some places already in more recent content. They need to be extended into the past content. With damage capping health segments a unusually good weapon or strategy won’t ruin the gameplay. Remember, while I like getting rewards from the Crucible, I like playing Crucible much more and a quick end to a game because I was joined into a game that immediately ends in a mercy is pretty much the worst Destiny experience for me. Having a Strike or Raid encounter end almost immediately is equally awful for me. So not all of this can be blamed on guns being too powerful. Boss design needs to be betterment too.

But sometimes weapons are too powerful. The best examples are the Kalli and Shuro Chi encounters. Teammates using Sleeper were able to triple my damage output when I was using my brand new Two-tailed Fox. Boy, that felt crappy. In the early runnings of Last Wish, our lower Light levels basically meant either everyone used Sleeper... or we straight up failed the Shuro Chi stun check and wiped. Destiny is a game where you are encouraged to build your own load out. And yes, the boss can be too tough or a player could bring a totally unsuited load out, but at some point, like when one or two weapons outperform literally everything else by 3x, the guns themselves are also part of the problem.

The Shuro Chi battles was one of the worst encounters in Destiny for me. I was getting one third the boss damage of everyone else so eventually I was assigned to an unlock plate so I’d be useful, and we had the Orpheus Rigs Hunter, so shooting things during the adds phase was also a no-no. The encounter is clever and interesting and fun. I got a lot of enjoyment watching my fire team complete it... (aka, I felt pretty useless in most of the encounter.)

Ultimately, I see these weapon nerfs as necessary, but they are only half the equation. Bosses need better design too. Look at the Eater of Worlds Hydra. There was some straight up DPSing required, but destroying its weak spots each round did not require DPS. It required sustained damage of any amount. Slow firing, high burst damage weapons were actually a liability. There’s no need for Bungie to entirely eliminate DPS phases in its boss designs, but it’s better when beating bosses requires a more diverse weapon selection.

Nerfing these weapons isn’t so much a walk back to mediocrity as it is past encounters unfortunately getting designed around just a few overpowered weapons. Weapons wouldn’t feel ineffective if bosses weren’t so tanky that they required the very top tier weapons to kill.