I actually don't mind the figuring out the puzzle aspect, I love puzzle rooms, it's that once you add in "I don't even know if we're a high enough light level for this" that I immediately become "well this isn't fun to figure out". If I'm trying to figure out the solution to something, adding in the possibility that it may be impossible to solve makes it less fun, and starts to make it work.

I had not read this when I wrote my reply to you below. I understand better where you're coming from. It's been discussed a lot, and I've said before that I have a high tolerance for existing in that "I don't know if we're high enough light level" place. I think we've gotten better at knowing when that's the issue, and even then practicing and refining approaches to new mechanics is fun to me. I'm building up the muscle memory for when it becomes racquet ball. :)

There's also the time when you're barely high enough light level, and you just need some good breaks, a few miracle plays maybe, and good execution to succeed. A lot of my first clears of raid bosses were in that situation, and it was exhilarating.

Yeah I'd be really interested to try a raid blind with the new "contest" version. New dad here, so I had no chance in hell of trying this last one, but I'm keen to check out the next.

To that end, I'd like a way of accessing the "contest" version whenever as an option (is that an option?).

Maayyyybe I'll feel different if I can try a blind raid where LL is no longer an issue.

I love that feeling as well, but Destiny has never constantly given it to me. It’s so overtly “gamey”, from the health bars and numbers flying off enemies as you shoot them, monster closets that spawn enemies, teammates that disappear and reappear between loading zones, “darkness” zones... Destiny just isn’t a game that manages to make me feel like I’m in a “real” place, on a “real” mission very often.

And that's a fundamental problem I think.

I mean I don’t see it as different than anything else in videogames. If you’ve never play a video game before, you don’t “know” touching a goomba in Mario will kill you. You do it, and you see what happens. You don’t “know” that you can break bricks if you’re big. You just discover that. You don’t “know” hidden blocks exist. You find them.

The rules of every game only reveal themselves one you get in there and start playing. It’s always been a part of learning how to win.

I've never put together this way, but I like feeling like I'm immersed in a fictional world. Blind raiding just means you're on the elite squad of guardians willing to scope out the unknown. It's cool, man.

I love that feeling as well, but Destiny has never constantly given it to me.

It's not constant for me either, but I've gotten a bit of it every time we move ahead while blind raiding. I admit that the feeling as has never been as intense as it was in Gorgons' Labyrinth.

I mean I don’t see it as different than anything else in videogames. If you’ve never play a video game before, you don’t “know” touching a goomba in Mario will kill you. You do it, and you see what happens. You don’t “know” that you can break bricks if you’re big. You just discover that. You don’t “know” hidden blocks exist. You find them.

The rules of every game only reveal themselves one you get in there and start playing. It’s always been a part of learning how to win.

I've never put together this way, but I like feeling like I'm immersed in a fictional world. Blind raiding just means you're on the elite squad of guardians willing to scope out the unknown. It's cool, man.

I love that feeling as well, but Destiny has never constantly given it to me. It’s so overtly “gamey”, from the health bars and numbers flying off enemies as you shoot them, monster closets that spawn enemies, teammates that disappear and reappear between loading zones, “darkness” zones... Destiny just isn’t a game that manages to make me feel like I’m in a “real” place, on a “real” mission very often. This extends to raids as well, where the various mechanics feel more like arbitrary and artificial challenges than having an actual battle against a powerful foe. I don’t mean any of this as a criticism... it’s all loads of fun. But immersion is so rarely part of the equation for me. That said, there are rare moments that go farther towards making me feel like I’m with my fireteam in a real time and place, and they’re some of my favourite experiences in Destiny. Shattered Throne, Whisper, Zero Hour, a few of the strikes, parts of some of the older raids... its a great feeling when Destiny does start to close the gap between the game itself and my suspension of disbelief :)

I feel like most of the raids on the Leviathan have felt immersive because it actually feels like your in Calus' House were he is testing you in some weird space gladiator arena. So all the switches and weird rules makes sense. It actually made it even more twisted because you know he built this to test people.

I mean I don’t see it as different than anything else in videogames. If you’ve never play a video game before, you don’t “know” touching a goomba in Mario will kill you. You do it, and you see what happens. You don’t “know” that you can break bricks if you’re big. You just discover that. You don’t “know” hidden blocks exist. You find them.

The rules of every game only reveal themselves one you get in there and start playing. It’s always been a part of learning how to win.

I've never put together this way, but I like feeling like I'm immersed in a fictional world. Blind raiding just means you're on the elite squad of guardians willing to scope out the unknown. It's cool, man.

I love picturing an "elite" squad of anything that involves just "trying" things until something works, dying multiple times in the process. I felt like I was on an elite squad of lemmings.

How is that not elite? Elite squads have died throughout history in warfare, often gaining ground for those who come after. In our case we happen to be deathless zombie warriors, so we are the ones who come after. And why the scare quotes around "trying" things? Of course you're trying things--that's what you do to figure out how to open the combination lock that is most rooms in Destiny raids. I mean, it's okay if you don't like puzzles, but they have always been a staple of the fantasy genre.

Blind raiding is absolutely not like a sport, and if that is what you want, don't blind raid.

Why would you go to an escape room if, by your logic, it's like racquet ball when you don't know the rules? Not knowing the rules is the fun part of blind raiding for many of us, and many of us also like the enjoyment of playing with others later after we know the rules. It's a different activity then--one where the comparison to racquet ball is more apt.

It's why Argos is my favorite encounter since there aren't many "ah you forgot to flip the switch" moments while it's this dance with all the other members of your team that allows for some improvisation/heroics.

FWIW, the new raid is all about the dance. There are constant opportunities to improvise and correct when someone makes a mistake.

Maybe we were doing it wrong, but there are a couple of places where a mistake meant a guaranteed wipe.

Example: Final fight, crystals. You've got what... 10 seconds? If you get there, don't destroy the crystal, and one of the pair dies, there isn't enough time to recover. Guaranteed wipe. No recovery possible. (I mentioned this to someone last night, and they said they hadn't had any trouble with that - even if someone died, "another pair could come over and sub in." Our experience directly contradicted that solution; with 3 or 4 seconds left on the clock, it didn't matter HOW fast you could run, you couldn't get to the crystal before time ran out.

::shrug::

If the solution is "don't die during the crystals"... I guess this raid isn't for me.

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Do you mean the level caps and all? I kind of liked that, as a player I mean. I've never watched the world's first competitors because I wanted it to be blind for myself.

In my pursuit of staying blind I wasn't even aware of the temporary level cap until after the fact, but yes, that's part of it.

Most of my frustration is with the raid release schedule. For some reason Bungie wanted the raid to be available on the same day that the new season released, but they knew it couldn't be completed on the same day because the raid level requirements are 715, 725, and 735. So they created an "easy mode" event that only 6-person teams that were able to take time off work or school could participate in. That's just not something the average or even dedicated Destiny player could do.

Bungie also included in-game rewards (a triumph and emblem) for finishing within that 24-hour time frame. If you wanted the in-game reward and you only had a few hours after work/school before going to bed, you probably cheated yourself out of the blind experience in pursuit of the in-game reward. You know I don't like having to choose between in-game rewards and the game experience itself.

Imagine if the raid was released on the second or even third Friday evening after a season started. There'd be no need for an artificial level cap because many more casual players could reasonably prepare. Many, many more fireteams would certainly be able to play on a Friday night.

---
Yes, I understand that Bungie is probably favoring the streamers over the whole of their customer population in order to get more attention and sales for their product. Doesn't mean I have to like being treated like a second-class citizen.

I understand. You're in a different position than me--you've got a talented dedicated blind raid group that has (or might have had) a decent shot at those triumphs/rewards. I daydreamed about getting the jacket for about ten seconds the afternoon before the reset, but that was it. :)

I would actually suggest that keeping the first 24 hours with an artificial power cap would be of greater benefit to a Raid with a delayed release.

Haha yeah, I guess there's a weird partial state of blindness where you're getting trolled by your sherpas because that definitely happened to me.

Sorry; every now and then there's something like that that catches on among sherpas. More recently it was "everyone punch the boxes at the same" to activate the elevator to the the final encounter space in the Spire of Stars raid.

3, 2, 1, <guardian down>

It's funny when it's not you, plus you get to help sell it to the next guy.

I'd have to find myself in an extremely rare mood to not find it hilarious. Though on Spire Of The Stars I could tell something was up. In Kings Fall the prankers just have to fall back slightly and let the mark go first...

and you get great moments like this:

https://clips.twitch.tv/ThirstyTenderNostrilChefFrank

Haha yeah, I guess there's a weird partial state of blindness where you're getting trolled by your sherpas because that definitely happened to me.

Definitely. I don't think this clip represents that, though. I think everyone was blind.

Yeah, too many people got taken out at the same time for that not to be a blind team.