I've really been enjoying the current "grind loop" because it's a slow burn and it's going to require some planning. I don't want to buy Bad Juju, I want to earn it. I'm going to do my best to explain how I'm planning on doing it, but I'm also looking for advice on how I can streamline this process.

To get Bad Juju you have to offer tributes.
To get tributes I've been working on Triumphs.
To speed up Triumph acquisition, I'm playing menagerie to get Calus themed armor.
I learned that Exodus Down doesn't count as Calus themed [too bad I spent the last few days working towards that set >:( ], and I'm lacking the proper runes to get the appropriate armor.
So I need more imperials so I can purchase runes.
I need more glimmer so I can purchase imperial chests.

I have about 3,000 weapon parts but I really don't want to have to break them all down for shards, to take to spider for glimmer. If I'm going to do that, I'll just go buy the triumphs for Bad Juju. I'm hoping my process will be something that will allow me to complete a lot of things during the journey.

Whatchy'all think?

I've really been enjoying the current "grind loop" because it's a slow burn and it's going to require some planning. I don't want to buy Bad Juju, I want to earn it. I'm going to do my best to explain how I'm planning on doing it, but I'm also looking for advice on how I can streamline this process.

To get Bad Juju you have to offer tributes.
To get tributes I've been working on Triumphs.
To speed up Triumph acquisition, I'm playing menagerie to get Calus themed armor.
I learned that Exodus Down doesn't count as Calus themed [too bad I spent the last few days working towards that set >:( ], and I'm lacking the proper runes to get the appropriate armor.
So I need more imperials so I can purchase runes.
I need more glimmer so I can purchase imperial chests.

I have about 3,000 weapon parts but I really don't want to have to break them all down for shards, to take to spider for glimmer. If I'm going to do that, I'll just go buy the triumphs for Bad Juju. I'm hoping my process will be something that will allow me to complete a lot of things during the journey.

Whatchy'all think?

I found that I had a whole lot more Leviathan raid armor, there is 3 sets, than I had thought. I just checked my collections and geared up. I also had a lot of Leviathan weapons. It helps a lot for the triumphs if you have full weapon and armor sets. Unless you have done the new raids, your best bet for a Leviathan exotic (which gives you even more progress) is the Acrius Shotgun.

Other than that, you just have to play play play. I'm at the point where I'm just going to hang out in this armor for the next couple months and just keep playing Destiny. Yeah, I'll check up on the Calus bounties and what triumphs I need to do, but there is so many of them that I don't care THAT much.

Other than that, you just have to play play play. I'm at the point where I'm just going to hang out in this armor for the next couple months and just keep playing Destiny. Yeah, I'll check up on the Calus bounties and what triumphs I need to do, but there is so many of them that I don't care THAT much.

This is one grind (for a weapon I loved) that's lost me. Every time I've maxed the tributes that are asked of me, the goalposts move a little further. I'm just going to write it off completely until the time comes (and perhaps it won't) where I have enough materials to buy it. I'm not grinding for 1% discounts every time I play for the next month. Bump all of that.

It is cheesy but in addition to doing the triumphs, you can farm planetary materials by going AFK in one of the forges. Wear gear that drops your light level down to 300-400. That way, you are only matched up with other AFK-ers. Set it up overnight, and you get about 700-800 materials and (I think) about 15k-20k glimmer.

Keep the materials for the tributes or convert them to legendary shards by going to Devrim or Failsafe. Then go use the legendary shards to buy the other planetary materials from the Spider and deposit them for at least 18 tributes to get the mission started.

Repeat each night and you should have the tributes knocked out a steady pace. I started Saturday night, and I expect to be done with the purchasable tributes by this weekend. That is 35ish of the 45 needed for the Bad Juju catalyst.

Kinda defeatist though. If you just pick up the one or two easy ones each time you play actually getting the gun will be almost trivial in the end. You’re gonna be killing enemies/getting precision kills/using you Super anyway. Why not also work towards the gun you like too?

I far prefer a set, slow burn goal to get an exotic over the “good ole days” where it took me over a year to luck into Red Death in D1.

(Also, yes, the quest upping the number over and over was annoying. You get the fun, fairly easy Bad Juju mission at 18 statues.)

It is cheesy but in addition to doing the triumphs, you can farm planetary materials by going AFK in one of the forges. Wear gear that drops your light level down to 300-400. That way, you are only matched up with other AFK-ers. Set it up overnight, and you get about 700-800 materials and (I think) about 15k-20k glimmer.

Keep the materials for the tributes or convert them to legendary shards by going to Devrim or Failsafe. Then go use the legendary shards to buy the other planetary materials from the Spider and deposit them for at least 18 tributes to get the mission started.

Repeat each night and you should have the tributes knocked out a steady pace. I started Saturday night, and I expect to be done with the purchasable tributes by this weekend. That is 35ish of the 45 needed for the Bad Juju catalyst.

I find the principle of this irritating. Why even bother playing the game? Not to mention, how is this even possible considering you get booted from the server after being idle for a few minutes?

Boo to this method.

Side rant: These dang streamer millennials and their constant need for instant gratification. Just play the game and earn the gun!!! Sheesh!! Back in my day if you wanted the special loot you had to play the game on the hardest level, solo, on legendary, with all skulls on, uphill both ways, in the snow, with no shoes, and barbwire around our feet so we didn't slip on the ice, naked, with bears chasing us, and that's how we liked it!

pfft. Youths.

I don’t want to seem discourteous, and I mean this in a pretty lighthearted way, so don’t take it too seriously but . . . Absolutely fuck all that.

Asking for a game to respect my time is not the same thing as instant gratification. This is a video game. It’s a video game that doesn’t have much in the way of challenge, other than the challenge of finding the time to get around all the roadblocks Bungie puts up.

I’m actually pretty okay with this quest. It seems fairly well-considered. Do the Triumphs for huge discounts, or grind out materials to buy them. That’s good player choice. It’s almost exactly what I’ve been asking for. Only it still feels like it’s too grindy just for the sake of being a grind.

But saying that people just want instant gratification instead of earning a fun item in a video game is silly to me. It’s a video game. I want cool toys to play with in my free time, not another job.

I still don’t feel even remotely bad for using the exploit to avoid the whole thing.

I don’t want to seem discourteous, and I mean this in a pretty lighthearted way, so don’t take it too seriously but . . . Absolutely fuck all that.

Asking for a game to respect my time is not the same thing as instant gratification. This is a video game. It’s a video game that doesn’t have much in the way of challenge, other than the challenge of finding the time to get around all the roadblocks Bungie puts up.

I’m actually pretty okay with this quest. It seems fairly well-considered. Do the Triumphs for huge discounts, or grind out materials to buy them. That’s good player choice. It’s almost exactly what I’ve been asking for. Only it still feels like it’s too grindy just for the sake of being a grind.

But saying that people just want instant gratification instead of earning a fun item in a video game is silly to me. It’s a video game. I want cool toys to play with in my free time, not another job.

I still don’t feel even remotely bad for using the exploit to avoid the whole thing.

heh, you're right and it's case-by-case. I like the long drawn out easy to achieve stuff like the Bad Juju quest. It fits my play style. There have been other missions where I've cheesed it or just outright ignored them. :P

I'm pretty sure within the last month you could find a post where I was complaining about how long some of the quests have been. The Stugotz is strong in me.

So I need more imperials so I can purchase runes.
I need more glimmer so I can purchase imperial chests.

Just a note that buying imperial chests isn't the only way to get imperials. There are many menagerie triumphs that reward 500 imperials when turned in. You can also buy 3 "Wealth of the Emperor" buffs per week that yield 500 imperials each.

I think I’d be pretty happy with the Bad Juju quest if I was more active in the game right now. It’s exactly the sort of thing that makes it hard to come back though—it always feels like there’s too much that I’ve missed, that if I start playing it’ll be a month to get all this stuff done, instead of just coming back and playing.

That night I posted about last week happened almost explicitly because i cheesed that gun. Instead of focusing on the easiest triumphs to grind out, I could instead just jump in with other people and help with whatever they were working on, and knock out some other stuff for myself.

I know that’s mostly a self-imposes problem. I can always choose to do that instead of focusing on an exotic quest (my half finished Acrius, Sturm, Malfeasance, Truth, and Lumina quests are a testament to that), but it’s much more difficult to completely enjoy myself, even when it’s really fun, when I’m doing something that isn’t really beneficial to advancing some quest or another.

So I need more imperials so I can purchase runes.
I need more glimmer so I can purchase imperial chests.

Just a note that buying imperial chests isn't the only way to get imperials. There are many menagerie triumphs that reward 500 imperials when turned in. You can also buy 3 "Wealth of the Emperor" buffs per week that yield 500 imperials each.

I knew about the triumph rewards, I did not know about the buffs. Thanks!

I think I’d be pretty happy with the Bad Juju quest if I was more active in the game right now. It’s exactly the sort of thing that makes it hard to come back though—it always feels like there’s too much that I’ve missed, that if I start playing it’ll be a month to get all this stuff done, instead of just coming back and playing.

I think Destiny is way more forgiving than other games with regards to ways to catch up if you've been out of the loop. Just my personal experience, but even just running strikes or Crucible if you're nowhere near max light is a reasonably efficient way to get back up to speed.

That night I posted about last week happened almost explicitly because i cheesed that gun. Instead of focusing on the easiest triumphs to grind out, I could instead just jump in with other people and help with whatever they were working on, and knock out some other stuff for myself.

I think this is pretty much the ideal Destiny experience for frequent players (or at the very least, me). Help others, and in so doing help yourself. Once everyone in the group is more or less in the same place, then it's time for endgame stuff. And as it happens, this is the kind of thing I find happens a lot (maybe it's just the segment of the community I tend to run with) when people are in and out of the game for weeks and months at a time; friends will help out with older content to bring friends up to speed. Standing offer on anything you want to run, BtW. A Masterworked Acrius is a thing of exquisite beauty. Never leave home without one.

I know that’s mostly a self-imposes problem. I can always choose to do that instead of focusing on an exotic quest (my half finished Acrius, Sturm, Malfeasance, Truth, and Lumina quests are a testament to that), but it’s much more difficult to completely enjoy myself, even when it’s really fun, when I’m doing something that isn’t really beneficial to advancing some quest or another.

I agree with this last part, but it makes me want to say that we've been conditioned towards goals; which, while it isn't necessarily a bad thing per se, I find it a lot harder to holistically enjoy the game, for lack of a better term, because there's always some particular thing each player is after. This is also why I never, EVER see folks I know playing customs, despite the tons of fun I've had getting full games of Gambit or Mayhem going on the rare occasion.

~m

It is cheesy but in addition to doing the triumphs, you can farm planetary materials by going AFK in one of the forges. Wear gear that drops your light level down to 300-400. That way, you are only matched up with other AFK-ers. Set it up overnight, and you get about 700-800 materials and (I think) about 15k-20k glimmer.

Keep the materials for the tributes or convert them to legendary shards by going to Devrim or Failsafe. Then go use the legendary shards to buy the other planetary materials from the Spider and deposit them for at least 18 tributes to get the mission started.

Repeat each night and you should have the tributes knocked out a steady pace. I started Saturday night, and I expect to be done with the purchasable tributes by this weekend. That is 35ish of the 45 needed for the Bad Juju catalyst.

I find the principle of this irritating. Why even bother playing the game? Not to mention, how is this even possible considering you get booted from the server after being idle for a few minutes?

Boo to this method.

Side rant: These dang streamer millennials and their constant need for instant gratification. Just play the game and earn the gun!!! Sheesh!! Back in my day if you wanted the special loot you had to play the game on the hardest level, solo, on legendary, with all skulls on, uphill both ways, in the snow, with no shoes, and barbwire around our feet so we didn't slip on the ice, naked, with bears chasing us, and that's how we liked it!

pfft. Youths.

I mean, Bungie said they wanted people to find the most efficient way to farm glimmer. If you don't even have to be there, sounds very efficient.

Also back in my day it wasn't the loot that was special. It was just the act of playing the game that was special :-p

But saying that people just want instant gratification instead of earning a fun item in a video game is silly to me. It’s a video game. I want cool toys to play with in my free time, not another job.

I mean to be fair I do actually want instant gratification in games. I want to start having fun immediately upon playing. Not 30 minutes in. Not 1 hour in. Not 10 hours in. But 10 milliseconds in.

Side rant: These dang streamer millennials and their constant need for instant gratification. Just play the game and earn the gun!!! Sheesh!! Back in my day if you wanted the special loot you had to play the game on the hardest level, solo, on legendary, with all skulls on, uphill both ways, in the snow, with no shoes, and barbwire around our feet so we didn't slip on the ice, naked, with bears chasing us, and that's how we liked it!

pfft. Youths.

(LOL.)

*Creeky Door Voice*

Those were some good days.

This is also why I never, EVER see folks I know playing customs, despite the tons of fun I've had getting full games of Gambit or Mayhem going on the rare occasion.

~m

This is a really interesting observation.

I mean, Bungie said they wanted people to find the most efficient way to farm glimmer. If you don't even have to be there, sounds very efficient.

I'll paraphrase a Mitch Hedberg joke as a response. "They say Diet Dr. Pepper tastes more like Original Dr. Pepper. Well then they f***ed up!"

Also back in my day it wasn't the loot that was special. It was just the act of playing the game that was special :-p

word.

I think I’d be pretty happy with the Bad Juju quest if I was more active in the game right now. It’s exactly the sort of thing that makes it hard to come back though—it always feels like there’s too much that I’ve missed, that if I start playing it’ll be a month to get all this stuff done, instead of just coming back and playing.

I think Destiny is way more forgiving than other games with regards to ways to catch up if you've been out of the loop. Just my personal experience, but even just running strikes or Crucible if you're nowhere near max light is a reasonably efficient way to get back up to speed.

That night I posted about last week happened almost explicitly because i cheesed that gun. Instead of focusing on the easiest triumphs to grind out, I could instead just jump in with other people and help with whatever they were working on, and knock out some other stuff for myself.

I think this is pretty much the ideal Destiny experience for frequent players (or at the very least, me). Help others, and in so doing help yourself. Once everyone in the group is more or less in the same place, then it's time for endgame stuff. And as it happens, this is the kind of thing I find happens a lot (maybe it's just the segment of the community I tend to run with) when people are in and out of the game for weeks and months at a time; friends will help out with older content to bring friends up to speed. Standing offer on anything you want to run, BtW. A Masterworked Acrius is a thing of exquisite beauty. Never leave home without one.

I know that’s mostly a self-imposes problem. I can always choose to do that instead of focusing on an exotic quest (my half finished Acrius, Sturm, Malfeasance, Truth, and Lumina quests are a testament to that), but it’s much more difficult to completely enjoy myself, even when it’s really fun, when I’m doing something that isn’t really beneficial to advancing some quest or another.

I agree with this last part, but it makes me want to say that we've been conditioned towards goals; which, while it isn't necessarily a bad thing per se, I find it a lot harder to holistically enjoy the game, for lack of a better term, because there's always some particular thing each player is after. This is also why I never, EVER see folks I know playing customs, despite the tons of fun I've had getting full games of Gambit or Mayhem going on the rare occasion.

~m

Remember when we used to have spreadsheets pinned before the admins decided to take them down (not sure I understood why)?

It was handy to keep track of who was on what platform, whether their forum name corresponded to the gamertag, and we had columns for other stuff I think, like what time people liked to play.

For a long time I've been thinking of a spreadsheet that identified quest steps (squid's event from last week got me thinking about it again). It would be really nice to know who in the community is working on the same thing.

Even better would be a site similar to this that included quest step info by clan. Has someone built such a thing?

...reading through this thread gave me an idea. May or may not be balanced, but might be worth trying out sometime.

What if you could give up over-time resources to loan out a gun from an NPC?

Maybe a gun can be gotten fairly easily if it has limitations... maybe you give up glimmer gains when using the gun. Maybe you get locked out of other ammo class types. Maybe you get no faction gains while using the gun. Lots of ways to pay over time for a weapon that isn't necessarily crippled, allowing partial access to have fun with the game, with the option to "unlock" it fully over time, either as part of this rent-to-own idea or through a completely separate questline. Lots of options here...

But it would essentially even out the playing field for players to have fun in a more up-front way, with something to work towards.

Not sure all guns should be in this boat... but mega-reward guns and things that have a ton of time-gating would benefit greatly with this paradigm, allowing some sort of limited access.

Banshee would be a good starter candidate for this, and there is some precedent there in D1 using loaner guns for his bounties.

Just a thought.

Standing offer on anything you want to run, BtW.

I appreciate the offer, and I'll take you up on it at some point. I'm at the Guardian kills step for Malfeasance, so I need a squad to run Gambit. I'm pretty close to halfway done with that step, I think.

I've been getting better about asking people to run stuff with me. I hate to feel like a burden. I know I'm not--folks here mostly like to help with whatever random shit as much as I do. I got Cruel and Korny to run Zero Hour with me last week to get Outbreak Perfected (after spending an hour getting Korny's second character ready for the mission--that set up is longer than I remember!).

I don't mind "working" for cool rewards--I've found that Destiny is a far better game if you take it in stride and just use those things as long term goals rather than something to grind for as fast as possible.

I just don't particularly like the associated Triumphs for getting Bad Juju. I feel like I'm being shoehorned into some stuff that I wouldn't necessarily want to do otherwise, and I especially hate the "with Leviathan themed" caveat to them. Let me use what I want to use Bungie, not what you think I should.

Weirdly enough, the normal exotic quests feel fine by comparison. I don't actually know what the difference is, as the Bad Juju stuff is ostensibly far more player-friendly with more options than something like Malfeasance, which has no other options besides just playing Gambit. Those Triumphs just feel worse somehow. Maybe it's just how daunting it all seems. I dunno.

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I don't.

It's hinting at something that could be cool, maybe, with some work.

I don't want to spend any currency that the game is already pretty stingy about handing out to rent a gun. I don't want to rent a gun and then not get rewards because I'm using a rented gun. I don't want to get a cool new weapon along with a bunch of caveats. Sounds needless and silly to me.

Banshee's weapon testing stuff was cool, because it was just a nice diversion to get you to try out new weapon archtypes.

I would, however, like to see more exotic quests give you the weapon early and then make the rest of the quest about upgrading it and unlocking its full potential. The evolution of the Braytech MWP MK II into Polaris Lance, for instance.

Catalysts are sort of that, but that feels a little more rote than I would like.

It's not really the same as your proposal, but apparently the Asia-exclusive vendor Yuna does something sort of similar: Link to Reddit Thread

Last week in Menagerie wasn't I following after you running out of the chamber to run back and get a second shot at the chest?

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Standing offer on anything you want to run, BtW.

I appreciate the offer, and I'll take you up on it at some point. I'm at the Guardian kills step for Malfeasance, so I need a squad to run Gambit. I'm pretty close to halfway done with that step, I think.

Not a problem at all. I love Gambit. Malfeasance is one of the most reliable and fun hand cannons in my opinion. It's fantastic against Taken, super super useful if you're running Reckoning.

I've been getting better about asking people to run stuff with me. I hate to feel like a burden. I know I'm not--folks here mostly like to help with whatever random shit as much as I do. I got Cruel and Korny to run Zero Hour with me last week to get Outbreak Perfected (after spending an hour getting Korny's second character ready for the mission--that set up is longer than I remember!).

Haha, funny you mention this. Last night I had those two drag me through the Heroic version to get my catalyst and my first 20% completed on it. So now I kinda-sorta can run that with a competent fireteam and not feel like dead weight. Big ups to Team KevinMouglas/NornyDunky. Love you guys.

I don't mind "working" for cool rewards--I've found that Destiny is a far better game if you take it in stride and just use those things as long term goals rather than something to grind for as fast as possible.

I just don't particularly like the associated Triumphs for getting Bad Juju. I feel like I'm being shoehorned into some stuff that I wouldn't necessarily want to do otherwise, and I especially hate the "with Leviathan themed" caveat to them. Let me use what I want to use Bungie, not what you think I should.

Weirdly enough, the normal exotic quests feel fine by comparison. I don't actually know what the difference is, as the Bad Juju stuff is ostensibly far more player-friendly with more options than something like Malfeasance, which has no other options besides just playing Gambit. Those Triumphs just feel worse somehow. Maybe it's just how daunting it all seems. I dunno.

Yeah, normally I don't feel this way about almost any of wickets we have to go through to unlock exotics; but for some reason everything about the Bad Juju quest just rubs me the wrong way. I'm definitely at a point where I've earned most of the things I want; so it's now down to seeking things like the Mountaintop, or the Telesto Catalyst.

~m

Last week in Menagerie wasn't I following after you running out of the chamber to run back and get a second shot at the chest?

Well, if you want to call that an exploit, sure. I still had to spend materials I earned to open the chest. Still had to beat the boss to get the chest to spawn in the first place. But I'm not willing to put that in the same category as idling in a matchmade activity in order to collect mats for doing literally nothing, and potentially trashing the experience of other users who I might get matched with.

~m

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But I think the philosophical argument still stands. Narc does have a point, and in that particular case I think it's less black-and-white by virtue of the mechanics that were in play (playing the boss death sound and having the chest respawn, all while having a 300+ second timer active); but I think a distinction is at least meaningful, if not important. One can call it moral relativism if they like, I just find tactics like idling to be beyond the pale.

~m

But I think the philosophical argument still stands. Narc does have a point, and in that particular case I think it's less black-and-white by virtue of the mechanics that were in play (playing the boss death sound and having the chest respawn, all while having a 300+ second timer active); but I think a distinction is at least meaningful, if not important. One can call it moral relativism if they like, I just find tactics like idling to be beyond the pale.

~m

I agree with you. I don't do any full on cheeses that reward you for not playing the game. Not to mention, I like playing the game, so why would I skip that?

But I think the philosophical argument still stands. Narc does have a point, and in that particular case I think it's less black-and-white by virtue of the mechanics that were in play (playing the boss death sound and having the chest respawn, all while having a 300+ second timer active); but I think a distinction is at least meaningful, if not important. One can call it moral relativism if they like, I just find tactics like idling to be beyond the pale.

~m

I agree with you. I don't do any full on cheeses that reward you for not playing the game. Not to mention, I like playing the game, so why would I skip that?

Keep in mind that I am the same asshole who once joked about sitting in the loot cave to prevent that exploit in D1, but the forge exploit feels less game breaking to me. You're not affecting other players experience of the game except in some tertiary effect due to more people having a certain gun sooner. I used to care more about that, too. The whole loot model was new to me five years ago.

Maybe I've loosened up. Also, getting world resources feels further upstream than getting exotic engrams. I find it tedious enough just turning all that stuff in.

I would say that I absolutely like playing the game. I love playing it--a bit too much. The trouble is I love doing other stuff, too. This will sound like Cody, but I'm no longer willing to give Destiny such a significant portion of my free time. And I offer no judgment of those who play more than me. You'll always be ahead of me and you'll always have plenty of stuff I don't have. It's all good.

But I think the philosophical argument still stands. Narc does have a point, and in that particular case I think it's less black-and-white by virtue of the mechanics that were in play (playing the boss death sound and having the chest respawn, all while having a 300+ second timer active); but I think a distinction is at least meaningful, if not important. One can call it moral relativism if they like, I just find tactics like idling to be beyond the pale.

~m

I agree with you. I don't do any full on cheeses that reward you for not playing the game. Not to mention, I like playing the game, so why would I skip that?

Keep in mind that I am the same asshole who once joked about sitting in the loot cave to prevent that exploit in D1, but the forge exploit feels less game breaking to me. You're not affecting other players experience of the game except in some tertiary effect due to more people having a certain gun sooner. I used to care more about that, too. The whole loot model was new to me five years ago.

Maybe I've loosened up. Also, getting world resources feels further upstream than getting exotic engrams. I find it tedious enough just turning all that stuff in.

I would say that I absolutely like playing the game. I love playing it--a bit too much. The trouble is I love doing other stuff, too. This will sound like Cody, but I'm no longer willing to give Destiny such a significant portion of my free time. And I offer no judgment of those who play more than me. You'll always be ahead of me and you'll always have plenty of stuff I don't have. It's all good.

I will also say that I don't condemn anyone for using cheeses, as long as it doesn't affect me. So if I want to legit do forges and I get someone who is afk farming... I'm not going to be happy.

I would say that I absolutely like playing the game. I love playing it--a bit too much. The trouble is I love doing other stuff, too. This will sound like Cody, but I'm no longer willing to give Destiny such a significant portion of my free time. And I offer no judgment of those who play more than me. You'll always be ahead of me and you'll always have plenty of stuff I don't have. It's all good.

It’s tough because Bungie have said before and reiterated that Destiny should be a hobby. I think ultimately I like gaming as a hobby. But not one exclusive game. It just seems like a lot to ask when there are so many other great games and experiences out there too.

I would say that I absolutely like playing the game. I love playing it--a bit too much. The trouble is I love doing other stuff, too. This will sound like Cody, but I'm no longer willing to give Destiny such a significant portion of my free time. And I offer no judgment of those who play more than me. You'll always be ahead of me and you'll always have plenty of stuff I don't have. It's all good.

It’s tough because Bungie have said before and reiterated that Destiny should be a hobby. I think ultimately I like gaming as a hobby. But not one exclusive game. It just seems like a lot to ask when there are so many other great games and experiences out there too.

I agree, but every company wants their game to be your hobby. And as a company, you kinda have to assume it is their first hobby. To not do that would see the game short for those who do find it their hobby, but also make it diverse enough that it doesn't have to be a hobby for others. Honestly, I think that's a tough spot to be in.

I’m not saying you don’t ever see AFKers in Forges, but it should be rare. Dropping your power level below 500 will pretty much ensure that you’ll get matched with other people doing the same thing.

But I think the philosophical argument still stands. Narc does have a point, and in that particular case I think it's less black-and-white by virtue of the mechanics that were in play (playing the boss death sound and having the chest respawn, all while having a 300+ second timer active); but I think a distinction is at least meaningful, if not important. One can call it moral relativism if they like, I just find tactics like idling to be beyond the pale.

~m

I agree with you. I don't do any full on cheeses that reward you for not playing the game. Not to mention, I like playing the game, so why would I skip that?

Keep in mind that I am the same asshole who once joked about sitting in the loot cave to prevent that exploit in D1, but the forge exploit feels less game breaking to me. You're not affecting other players experience of the game except in some tertiary effect due to more people having a certain gun sooner. I used to care more about that, too. The whole loot model was new to me five years ago.

Maybe I've loosened up. Also, getting world resources feels further upstream than getting exotic engrams. I find it tedious enough just turning all that stuff in.

I would say that I absolutely like playing the game. I love playing it--a bit too much. The trouble is I love doing other stuff, too. This will sound like Cody, but I'm no longer willing to give Destiny such a significant portion of my free time. And I offer no judgment of those who play more than me. You'll always be ahead of me and you'll always have plenty of stuff I don't have. It's all good.

I will also say that I don't condemn anyone for using cheeses, as long as it doesn't affect me. So if I want to legit do forges and I get someone who is afk farming... I'm not going to be happy.

You won't because you won't be matched with someone who is cheesing. Anyone matched in that session is also cheesing, and no one there has enough light level to kill the lowest level enemy anyway. It's impossible for anyone to win in that session.

I will also say that I don't condemn anyone for using cheeses, as long as it doesn't affect me. So if I want to legit do forges and I get someone who is afk farming... I'm not going to be happy.

You won't because you won't be matched with someone whose cheesing. Anyone matched in that session is also cheesing, and no one there has enough light level to kill the lowest level enemy anyway. It's impossible for anyone to win in that session.

You are making the assumption people are doing it correctly :D

I will also say that I don't condemn anyone for using cheeses, as long as it doesn't affect me. So if I want to legit do forges and I get someone who is afk farming... I'm not going to be happy.

You won't because you won't be matched with someone whose cheesing. Anyone matched in that session is also cheesing, and no one there has enough light level to kill the lowest level enemy anyway. It's impossible for anyone to win in that session.

You are making the assumption people are doing it correctly :D

I am. It's their loss if they're not. They'll get bad feedback and probably get banned in short order.

I would say that I absolutely like playing the game. I love playing it--a bit too much. The trouble is I love doing other stuff, too. This will sound like Cody, but I'm no longer willing to give Destiny such a significant portion of my free time. And I offer no judgment of those who play more than me. You'll always be ahead of me and you'll always have plenty of stuff I don't have. It's all good.

It’s tough because Bungie have said before and reiterated that Destiny should be a hobby. I think ultimately I like gaming as a hobby. But not one exclusive game. It just seems like a lot to ask when there are so many other great games and experiences out there too.

I like to think they're moving more toward a model where players can choose their level of engagement without sacrificing their ability to play with friends.

Last week in Menagerie wasn't I following after you running out of the chamber to run back and get a second shot at the chest?

Well, if you want to call that an exploit, sure. I still had to spend materials I earned to open the chest. Still had to beat the boss to get the chest to spawn in the first place. But I'm not willing to put that in the same category as idling in a matchmade activity in order to collect mats for doing literally nothing, and potentially trashing the experience of other users who I might get matched with.

~m

Well, it's not as bad as that, but it still sounds like an exploit to me?

https://gamerant.com/destiny-2-menagerie-chest-exploit-patch-announcement/

https://gamingbolt.com/destiny-2-update-fixes-menagerie-chest-exploit-adds-more-clan-xp-sources

https://www.pcinvasion.com/destiny-2s-menagerie-chest-exploit-will-get-fixed-in-july/

Seems to be the common term in use.

All this affects is how quickly you get rewards, and you'd get them faster than other players who won't use the exploit.

AFKing is negatively impacting the game experience directly for anyone you're with.

The idea that "just de-level yourself and you'll only be matched with others doing this... I don't know, is that guaranteed?

I will also say that I don't condemn anyone for using cheeses, as long as it doesn't affect me. So if I want to legit do forges and I get someone who is afk farming... I'm not going to be happy.

You won't because you won't be matched with someone who is cheesing. Anyone matched in that session is also cheesing, and no one there has enough light level to kill the lowest level enemy anyway. It's impossible for anyone to win in that session.

If I put on gear that drops my level and then try to play the activity, then I'm affected and I'm not cheesing.

You can say no one would or should do that, but I really don't like this distinction. It's like saying sure, I'm stealing, but I'm only stealing from thieves. I don't want to player Destiny with Dexter.

The idea that "just de-level yourself and you'll only be matched with others doing this... I don't know, is that guaranteed?

If you go beyond 400, yes, very much so.

Not to mention there is a good chance the rest of the team manages to prolong the Forge long enough for them to be booted for inactivity. The exploit only works if you lose the very first round.

The idea that "just de-level yourself and you'll only be matched with others doing this... I don't know, is that guaranteed?

Yes (insofar far as anything can be guaranteed in matchmaking). The Forge matchmaking has been demonstrated to be based on light level - you get matched with people close to your light. Granted if there are only three people playing forges in the world, I'm sure they'd be matched regardless of their light. But the reality is that there are many people going into forges at 600+ expecting to play, and many people people going into forges below 500 light expecting to AFK farm. In my personal experience, I've never matchmade with someone from the other population (and I've both farmed and completed over 100 forges). Unfortunately there are people who AFK without lowering their light - those people are dicks and it's OK to hate and report them.

Note that the initial enemy light level in the Forge is 610 - anyone going in with less than 560 will be unable to damage even the lowest level enemies, never mind compete the encounter.

I will also say that I don't condemn anyone for using cheeses, as long as it doesn't affect me. So if I want to legit do forges and I get someone who is afk farming... I'm not going to be happy.

You won't because you won't be matched with someone who is cheesing. Anyone matched in that session is also cheesing, and no one there has enough light level to kill the lowest level enemy anyway. It's impossible for anyone to win in that session.

If I put on gear that drops my level and then try to play the activity, then I'm affected and I'm not cheesing.

But what kind of gameplay experience are you hoping for when you try play an activity and the enemies you face are immune? A one-minute game of staying alive might be fun ... once.

You can say no one would or should do that, but I really don't like this distinction. It's like saying sure, I'm stealing, but I'm only stealing from thieves. I don't want to player Destiny with Dexter.

It's really irrelevant that anyone is in the session with you--no one in the session can affect the outcome. The timer runs out in a minute no matter what anyone does.

It's valid to say you're denying yourself the experience of earning the materials the legit way. It's valid to say you're stealing time the developer intended you to use playing their game. To an extent it's valid to say you're gaining an advantage over players. Certain weapons are always going to be give advantages--we covet those advantages, don't we? That said, it seems that more so than in the past, "any weapon will do" is the response to "what should I equip?" in the raid groups I play with, so I don't know how great that advantage is.

My thinking on this has evolved as Destiny has evolved. I don't think I buy the Dexter comparison in this case (caveat: never seen the show but know the premise). I was Dexter-like that one time I sat in a loot cave. I was misusing game mechanics to keep people from misusing game mechanics.

there have always been some form of afk’ers, probably alway will be. I will see them in strikes and crucible from time to time. Bungie has implemented procedures that make afking harder and dedicated afkers have come up with creative ways to work around them but what is notable about forges are that many of these protection either don’t work or were not applied. Furthermore the afk ability in forges almost seems designed so that someone could do it and not negatively affect anyone. I’m pretty sure Bungie didnt do it on purpose but I don’t think they could have done much better if they were trying. this has been a known exploit for months (just maybe not widely known and rather pointless until recently) they haven’t rushed to fix it. with everything about to get split into pre and post shadowkeep versions of the game it will be interesting to see if they ever will.

but what is notable about forges are that many of these protection either don’t work or were not applied.

Specifically, the reason this works is that if 3 people are AFKing, you will fail the Forge encounter in 60 seconds, which is less time than it takes for the anti-AFK checks to kick in. However, failing a Forge still gives you materials and lore, which is what makes this such an efficient farm.

No, it was pretty widely known and relevant within the first or second week of Black Armory. It was the fastest way to reliably complete that lore book. You could complete it in a single night if you did this AFK method.

I only have like 13 Dusk Light shards, so I might do this for a few sessions.

I don't.

It's hinting at something that could be cool, maybe, with some work.

I don't want to spend any currency that the game is already pretty stingy about handing out to rent a gun. I don't want to rent a gun and then not get rewards because I'm using a rented gun. I don't want to get a cool new weapon along with a bunch of caveats. Sounds needless and silly to me.

Banshee's weapon testing stuff was cool, because it was just a nice diversion to get you to try out new weapon archtypes.

I would, however, like to see more exotic quests give you the weapon early and then make the rest of the quest about upgrading it and unlocking its full potential. The evolution of the Braytech MWP MK II into Polaris Lance, for instance.

Catalysts are sort of that, but that feels a little more rote than I would like.

I think a way can be found to give players temporary/limited access to weapons so they can play the game for fun, rather than playing for progression. Ideally these things will overlap. I think sometimes they don't.

I was very careful to not propose a crippled version of a gun, because we do already have that in some ways, on a per-weapon basis. Nechrochasm was super cool in that regard, and I think that kind of idea led to catalysts and such.

Currency and economy are a careful balance. This is already a dance that's done, this doesn't have to ruin any economy or additional fun, if done intelligently and intentionally.

I've played a lot of destiny and destiny 2. I've hardly ever unlocked guns like nechrochasm to their full potential, usually due to time/resource constraints. I look at all the "grind" quests around PvP and, while I have completed some, and some have given me new ways to play, I find the game un-fun if I follow those hardcore and make that the reason for playing. So I go without, which is totally valid... and yet I wonder sometimes at what I am missing, and why I can't have access to those things over time... especially when I've "fallen behind" my peers. Those progression hooks become things that actively keep me away from the game.

For PvP I also am good enough to run with people who are in the top 25-30% or so of players -- and often don't put in the time to get the rewards that top tier players do. So I find myself up against players that have superior weaponry. This can also be fun, but in a brutal, challenging sort of way.

Other games deal with this directly bu allowing you to play pre-made characters with set inventory or best-of-class weapons. Others have modes where you can use anything and everything in a pseudo-sandbox mode -- but can't use it all outside of specific settings. Or make gear essentially irrelevant, and rely on stats and other boosts to make you more effective.

Lots of solutions to this, but this one struck me as particularly helpful for those who may want to enjoy the game without making it a part-time job. It's been said before, progression keeps people playing more and longer, which is great for the game. But not always good for individual players. I'm not sure this progression vs fun line has to be win-lose, and that's the general thought here -- how can we let people enjoy content without messing up the goals we are giving them for progression?

And this wasn't meant to be a "bungie, please plagarize this and implement it exactly as I've described" sort of suggestion. It was meant to highlight that there are ways of bridging this seemingly polarized issue. It would definitely take fleshing out and careful consideration... but I mentioned it not because I was bored on the internet, but because I hope someone there does take a moment to consider that question. They probably already have, and have hashed over that multiple times. But on the off-chance they haven't, here we are.