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Two more exotics disabled... (Destiny)

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, April 14, 2020, 14:37 (1691 days ago)

Sure, Gwisin Vest got to run rampant in PvP for ages, but Winter's Guile is killed immediately, despite it (and Wormgod's Caress) being mostly useful in PvE. I see you, Bungo.

That's four exotics disabled at the moment.

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I’m Officially Convinced Halo Was A Fluke.

by Morpheus @, High Charity, Tuesday, April 14, 2020, 17:31 (1691 days ago) @ Korny

- No text -

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I’m Officially Convinced Halo Was A Fluke.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, April 14, 2020, 17:45 (1691 days ago) @ Morpheus

Who was 'responsible' for Halo's quality? Of those people, how many are still at Bungie? The answer is very few.

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I'm still mad about the Staten/O'Donnel thing from D1 dev

by Spec ops Grunt @, Broklahoma, Thursday, April 30, 2020, 06:06 (1676 days ago) @ Cody Miller

- No text -

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I don’t think that’s fair.

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, April 14, 2020, 18:46 (1691 days ago) @ Morpheus

Destiny is a far more complex game.

That’s not really an excuse. It seems pretty apparent that they’re not willing to really devote the resources that maintaining the game actually requires. Destiny seems to be in life support right now. That’s not really bashing them either. I assume they’re hard at work on the next big thing, both in Destiny and whatever Matter is. But they don’t seem entirely committed to actually supporting a live service game. I don’t attribute that to malice or laziness—I really believe they still just don’t have that balance figured out.

Unfortunately those are really the only options

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Wednesday, April 15, 2020, 06:50 (1691 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Malice or laziness (read: unwillingness to dedicate the resources to "figuring it out").

Unlike Eververse, I'm not willing to chalk this up to malice, but let's not give this AAA company a free pass on their 6th year of running a live service because "they're new".

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Unfortunately those are really the only options

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, April 15, 2020, 08:31 (1690 days ago) @ someotherguy

I’m not giving them a pass, truly.

But I still do give them some benefit of the doubt. They cut from Activision and are also working on an entirely new IP. The content they are currently putting out is lackluster, and that sucks. The way they market that content is bullshit. They market it like it’s essential, can’t-miss stuff, when it’s really just busywork for the people who would be playing anyway. I don’t even think that’s necessarily a bad thing, it’s just a problem of messaging what the content actually is, which is just something to do between bigger pieces of content.

I do think they haven’t figured out a way to release substantial content in a timely fashion without being in a state of constant crunch, and also allowing resources to work on their new IP. Let’s not pretend that’s an easy problem to solve.

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You know those are the only options because...?

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Wednesday, April 15, 2020, 09:12 (1690 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I’m not giving them a pass, truly.

But I still do give them some benefit of the doubt. They cut from Activision and are also working on an entirely new IP. The content they are currently putting out is lackluster, and that sucks. The way they market that content is bullshit. They market it like it’s essential, can’t-miss stuff, when it’s really just busywork for the people who would be playing anyway. I don’t even think that’s necessarily a bad thing, it’s just a problem of messaging what the content actually is, which is just something to do between bigger pieces of content.

I do think they haven’t figured out a way to release substantial content in a timely fashion without being in a state of constant crunch, and also allowing resources to work on their new IP. Let’s not pretend that’s an easy problem to solve.

I also want to note that it could be their processes, or it could be their foundational code or build system. There is a lot about technology where once you start building on to something, it's incredibly hard to change any of the foundation. People have this idea that just because code is virtual it is really easy to change... It's not :D

You make a godo point that yes, they need to work harder, but all we can do is assume what their problems are to get it to a point. We don't know any of that. All we can see is what the end product is now, and where we want it to go. We have no idea the work required to get their and what their resources are. I always give software the benefit of the doubt because I know how a simple problem could actually be incredibly hard to do.

But they are a AAA company and they do have resources. So you know, they have the talent. It just depends where they are spending their effort.

This video is exaggerated to some extent and it's made to be funny, but in reality this is sometimes what software is like. We have instances of this kind of thing in my company. I can't even imagine what a constantly live game has. Food for thought.

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You know those are the only options because...?

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Friday, April 17, 2020, 13:23 (1688 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Another possibility - this is just a consequence of an ever-changing sandbox. Halo had a static sandbox and the later games like Reach still had post-launch game balancing changes made because they didn't identify the problems in-house. Destiny takes that sandbox and puts an exponent on it making it that much less likely Bungie will pick up on problems ahead of time.

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This. Nailed it.

by Beorn @, <End of Failed Timeline>, Monday, May 04, 2020, 13:48 (1671 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

Another possibility - this is just a consequence of an ever-changing sandbox.

I’m Officially Convinced Halo Was A Fluke.

by FyreWulff, Thursday, April 16, 2020, 21:37 (1689 days ago) @ Morpheus

Because things have bugs that they're going to fix and they have the ability to disable them?


Halo 2 shipped with a bug that disabled most of the physics in online multiplayer. You couldn't flip a warthog or grenade jump off host. They had no way to fix it.

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Two more exotics disabled...

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Friday, April 17, 2020, 13:20 (1688 days ago) @ Korny

Sure, Gwisin Vest got to run rampant in PvP for ages, but Winter's Guile is killed immediately, despite it (and Wormgod's Caress) being mostly useful in PvE. I see you, Bungo.

So you're complaining that they let an overpowered exotic go for a long time, but now you're complaining that they are no longer letting an overpowered exotic go? Which is it? :P

Seems like progress that they are removing game-breaking things sooner.

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Two more exotics disabled...

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Monday, April 20, 2020, 07:14 (1686 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

I think his point is that overpowered in PVP hurts other players, but overpowered in PvE is less of a problem because only the enemies suffer.

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Two more exotics disabled...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, April 20, 2020, 10:30 (1685 days ago) @ Vortech

I think his point is that overpowered in PVP hurts other players, but overpowered in PvE is less of a problem because only the enemies suffer.

I think it's more complicated than that. The whole 'loot economy' can be put 'out of wack' with dominant PvE weapons, and there's the fact that some weapons you can obtain in PvE are very good in PvP (or at least this was the case when I still played). It's why they continually patch cheeses in strikes and raids for example, or tone down very damaging weapons like Jotunn.

Two more exotics disabled...

by Claude Errera @, Monday, April 20, 2020, 11:00 (1685 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I think his point is that overpowered in PVP hurts other players, but overpowered in PvE is less of a problem because only the enemies suffer.


I think it's more complicated than that. The whole 'loot economy' can be put 'out of wack' with dominant PvE weapons, and there's the fact that some weapons you can obtain in PvE are very good in PvP (or at least this was the case when I still played). It's why they continually patch cheeses in strikes and raids for example, or tone down very damaging weapons like Jotunn.

As far as I can tell, Jotunn has never been toned down - nor does it need to be. It's my favorite gun in Destiny - but it's outclassed in every category by other guns. (There is no gun as versatile as it is - but that doesn't mean it's the best in any particular category.)

Fine sentiment, bad example.

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Two more exotics disabled...

by bluerunner @, Music City, Monday, April 20, 2020, 13:55 (1685 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I havent used it in a long while, but pulled it out to knock out the solar kills bounty in cruicible this week. I wasn't even dominating or doing super well, but I got multiple hate mails for using it. I dont get it.

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Two more exotics disabled...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, April 20, 2020, 14:24 (1685 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I think his point is that overpowered in PVP hurts other players, but overpowered in PvE is less of a problem because only the enemies suffer.


I think it's more complicated than that. The whole 'loot economy' can be put 'out of wack' with dominant PvE weapons, and there's the fact that some weapons you can obtain in PvE are very good in PvP (or at least this was the case when I still played). It's why they continually patch cheeses in strikes and raids for example, or tone down very damaging weapons like Jotunn.


As far as I can tell, Jotunn has never been toned down - nor does it need to be. It's my favorite gun in Destiny - but it's outclassed in every category by other guns. (There is no gun as versatile as it is - but that doesn't mean it's the best in any particular category.)

Fine sentiment, bad example.

Then which one was the fusion rifle that completely broke on high end PCs? Damage ticks were applied every frame, so high frame rate meant way too much damage.

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Two more exotics disabled...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, April 20, 2020, 14:48 (1685 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I think his point is that overpowered in PVP hurts other players, but overpowered in PvE is less of a problem because only the enemies suffer.


I think it's more complicated than that. The whole 'loot economy' can be put 'out of wack' with dominant PvE weapons, and there's the fact that some weapons you can obtain in PvE are very good in PvP (or at least this was the case when I still played). It's why they continually patch cheeses in strikes and raids for example, or tone down very damaging weapons like Jotunn.


As far as I can tell, Jotunn has never been toned down - nor does it need to be. It's my favorite gun in Destiny - but it's outclassed in every category by other guns. (There is no gun as versatile as it is - but that doesn't mean it's the best in any particular category.)

Fine sentiment, bad example.


Then which one was the fusion rifle that completely broke on high end PCs? Damage ticks were applied every frame, so high frame rate meant way too much damage.

Yes, that was Jotunn. But it was a PC exclusive bug, so if you were playing on console, you never would have experienced it.

I believe the original point that Korny was making was that Bungie has a history of very rapidly fixing bugs/exploits that benefit the player, while taking forever to fix problems that negatively impact the player.

I don’t think it’s as simple as that either. For 1, the issues that players complain about and Bungie takes forever to fix are rarely bugs. They’re usually design choices. Problems like One Eyed Mask, Nova Warp, or Hardlight being the bane of the crucible are not glitches or exploits. The problem I have is that Bungie’s response to these issues is to spend 6-9 months collecting feedback and data, rather than having a single lead designer play with (and against) One Eyed Mask for an hour and realize “yeah, this isn’t fun to play against. It feels cheap.” I don’t care if One Eyed Mask was actually no more powerful than any other exotic... it FELT horrible to play against. It sucked the fun out of the match. You don’t need months of data, you need someone in a decision making position to say “we’re going to fix this because it isn’t fun”.

Two more exotics disabled...

by Claude Errera @, Monday, April 20, 2020, 15:00 (1685 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I think his point is that overpowered in PVP hurts other players, but overpowered in PvE is less of a problem because only the enemies suffer.


I think it's more complicated than that. The whole 'loot economy' can be put 'out of wack' with dominant PvE weapons, and there's the fact that some weapons you can obtain in PvE are very good in PvP (or at least this was the case when I still played). It's why they continually patch cheeses in strikes and raids for example, or tone down very damaging weapons like Jotunn.


As far as I can tell, Jotunn has never been toned down - nor does it need to be. It's my favorite gun in Destiny - but it's outclassed in every category by other guns. (There is no gun as versatile as it is - but that doesn't mean it's the best in any particular category.)

Fine sentiment, bad example.


Then which one was the fusion rifle that completely broke on high end PCs? Damage ticks were applied every frame, so high frame rate meant way too much damage.

Oops, completely forgot about that (mostly because I don't pay attention to the PC environment). Yeah, as Cruel said, that was Jotunn... but it was a game-breaking bug, not a 'let's tune this down because it's overpowered' decision.

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