The general vibe from almost all of the press articles about Destiny's reveal have been guarded, cautiously optimistic, but uncertain pieces where speculation is mixed with acknowledgement of how little is actually known.

Meanwhile here (and I suspect elsewhere, too) the speculation is leading into unhealthy territory. Far too many threads are making bold assertions centred on assumed gameplay mechanics where fans with almost nothing else to go on are using the only known frame of reference they have to guess just how Destiny will work. Mostly this is about MMOs. Sometimes it's the concerns of always-online, or levelling mechanics, or just how are Bungie going to make money from this anyway?

These frustrate me, because we know so little, but I think ultimately the buck stops with Bungie. We want to know about this game, but you gave us so little that we're forced to speculate. What this media event has demonstrated to me unequivocally is there is such a thing as too little information when teasing a game. Or at least, there is when it's a hyped reveal presaged by ARG and where members of the press are invited to see what you have to show.

Now maybe this is Activision's doing. Maybe they still want the big reveal for E3. But either way, I think this hasn't gone nearly as well as it should have, and it's doing what is undoubtedly going to be an excellent videogame a massive disservice.

I think this is why I said in my reaction post to the reveal that I was underwhelmed. The reason why I didn't go into territory about how the reveal was some sort of blunder is because I took this as being a concept reveal. Bungie may still be waiting to do a full reveal for an event like E3. I'm hoping that there's some sort of marketing plan behind this that gets going somewhere around or during E3 that gets the game itself out there and starts getting people ready for it. Actual gameplay. Actual screens. Maybe a demo (even if unplayable to the public or to people at E3).

There's still plenty of time for an initial marketing build up to be quite successful in selling this game and showing it off in all of its glory. So at least for now I don't think that this is all that much of a disservice, but I guess we'll see what happens as the year continues.

Isn't this pretty much normal for a new Bungie release? If anything they probably told us more about Destiny on the first day of the reveal than they told us about Halo's 2 - Reach.

Isn't this pretty much normal for a new Bungie release?

I think this is normal for games in general.

But Bungie's Halo sequels weren't brand new IPs. For the most part we knew what we were getting: more Halo. No one knows a thing about Destiny.

For my part, I didn't find the reveal underwhelming at all. It got me pretty excited. However, I can see the point kapowaz was trying to make. They didn't really tell us much, and that's forcing people to speculate. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but eventually people are going to assume they know what Destiny is going to be, and if it turns out Destiny isn't what they thought, there's probably going to be some disappointment.

Personally, I don't really see it as a problem. There's still plenty of time for Bungie to reveal more about the game. Anyone that takes speculation as the truth at this point is just setting themselves up for disappointment. Folks just need to keep in mind that we really don't know a whole lot yet. Be excited, be optimistic, but don't form any real expectations so soon.

Heh, I've loved everything I've seen, and it's more than I thought I would get. But I also didn't look at or read any leaks, and I feel like its the leaks that have done the disservice - not Bungie. Not to mention all these classy game journalists pining for drama to pull in pageviews!

I'm happy with what I got because I didn't have any expectations, and what I got is fueling my imagination. How could I complain? Why am I owed any more than what they decide to release? I don't have a Bungie-subscription, I'm not paying for these previews last time I checked. I don't even have to buy the game if I end up not interested. If you enjoy what you've seen - why can't it just stop there? Just enjoy it. Imagine, speculate. Be patient and hopeful. If you don't like what you see, find something that does.

Back in the day people would critique movies and books when they came out. Now the internet critiques previews and announcements and reveals. I find it absurd. People analyze and pick apart everything they can get their hands on and demand more, and then whenever the game/movie/etc. comes out, they're disappointed. We would judge inch-by-inch squares of a Rembrandt and condemn it before we ever see the whole picture if he was alive today.

I'm not aiming this at you kapowaz, I'm just tired of being the entitled, pessimistic, twenty-something that I am. :)

Not sure if you were here in the really early days of Halo - but this is how Bungie operates. We knew almost nothing - and in fact, by the time it actually launched, what we DID know in those early days was all wrong.

Not sure why this is doing the game a disservice - it's absolutely the first time they've talked about it, but it won't be the last. Activision's press release made it clear that launch almost certainly won't be this year... so you have plenty of time to get more information and learn new things, and change your perspective.

If you're going with the assertion that first impressions are everything... well, Bungie has ALWAYS disagreed with that. Like it, hate it, that's their opinion, and they're as entitled to it as you are to yours. (Personally, I'd say they've done reasonably well for themselves over the years - enough for me to cut them some slack at this stage.)

Six months ago, people screamed that the leaked contract proved that Destiny would be a subscription-based MMO, and that they were walking away and not coming back. Bungie kept their mouths shut, and let that rumor fester.

It got blown out of the water on Wednesday - and for folks who are actually paying attention, just that little fact should be enough to make them think twice about assumptions and what it means when they're not refuted by the company.

So what if people are making wild assertions based on nothing? It's the internet - that's how it works! I guarantee you that by the time the game launches, you'll have enough information to make the decision for yourself whether it's a buy or not. Until then... have fun. Speculate. Peoplewatch. Eat popcorn.

Enjoy the circus. :)

I heard 'x' is gonna be sprint.

Could be they just want to build better name recognition with the gaming community so that bigger reveals have a full impact. If people don't immediately associate "Destiny" with "Bungie-the-creators-of-Halo", they're going to struggle.

Isn't this pretty much normal for a new Bungie release? If anything they probably told us more about Destiny on the first day of the reveal than they told us about Halo's 2 - Reach.

Bungie announcements are normally pretty barren, but I think Destiny's reveal was waaaayy too hyped up. If they didn't have the 7-day ARG and the press event leading up to the announcement, the reveal would have been great -- just enough to get the speculation going. But nope, they made it seem like there was going to be a 10+ minute ViDoc with gameplay and other things.

Still looking forward to the next Destiny reveal whenever they get around to it.

They made it seem like what now? Bungie didn't even tell us there would be a ViDoc as far as I know.

Between what they've revealed, what we've heard from multiple journalists, the ARG and the leaks (which stole a good amount of the thunder) we know a good amount about this game for a first reveal, and it's probably not even coming out until next year.

And from what I've seen and pieced together so far...oh, my.

So what if people are making wild assertions based on nothing? It's the internet - that's how it works! I guarantee you that by the time the game launches, you'll have enough information to make the decision for yourself whether it's a buy or not. Until then... have fun. Speculate. Peoplewatch. Eat popcorn.

Popcorn? This forum really is better than the old one!

Oh god, I remember those halcyon days of Halo speculation. We all thought it was going to be just crazy weird. It was going to be massive, feature hand based communcations. The worlds would go on for ever

The reality was so different, and still so great.

Is it weird that for Destiny, we've seen far less of the game, but we know far far more than with Halo. The overall feature set seems far more locked in this time around.

The lead sure did make it seem like we would get a bit more, though.
I was thinking it would lead up to some pretty big part of the fiction.

- No text -

Not sure if you were here in the really early days of Halo - but this is how Bungie operates. We knew almost nothing - and in fact, by the time it actually launched, what we DID know in those early days was all wrong.

Not sure why this is doing the game a disservice - it's absolutely the first time they've talked about it, but it won't be the last. Activision's press release made it clear that launch almost certainly won't be this year... so you have plenty of time to get more information and learn new things, and change your perspective.

If you're going with the assertion that first impressions are everything... well, Bungie has ALWAYS disagreed with that. Like it, hate it, that's their opinion, and they're as entitled to it as you are to yours. (Personally, I'd say they've done reasonably well for themselves over the years - enough for me to cut them some slack at this stage.)

Six months ago, people screamed that the leaked contract proved that Destiny would be a subscription-based MMO, and that they were walking away and not coming back. Bungie kept their mouths shut, and let that rumor fester.

It got blown out of the water on Wednesday - and for folks who are actually paying attention, just that little fact should be enough to make them think twice about assumptions and what it means when they're not refuted by the company.

So what if people are making wild assertions based on nothing? It's the internet - that's how it works! I guarantee you that by the time the game launches, you'll have enough information to make the decision for yourself whether it's a buy or not. Until then... have fun. Speculate. Peoplewatch. Eat popcorn.

Enjoy the circus. :)

Yup. This.

I think it's been so long since Bungie had to flog something completely new that they've lost their reputation for being secretive. After all, once Halo 1 was released, the only secrets left to keep were the plot and what new features might get added. Release dates were almost a given, MS held them to such a tight schedule.

Bungie is not at all afraid to let people make fools of themselves saying ridiculous things that don't turn out to be true, or even relevant. In fact, I'd say most of the speculation that's really negative and/or off base seems to be coming from the "it isn't relevant if it isn't on PC" crowd. The vitriol I'm seeing spewed in Jason Jones' direction for stating something that I thought was not only innocuous, but fairly obvious at this point, is truly staggering.

It's like some people want to have their hand held through some miracle of constant ecstasy from the cradle to the grave. If they are let down for even a moment, it's 'How dare you, sir?' I mean, when one fires up Destiny for the first time, are they going to be thinking, 'If only the reveal was worthy of this certain (I did pay money, after all) masterpiece?'

I'd assume not. That's all very ridiculous.

What lead? The ARG?

A ViDoc was what I expected at most. I imagine it could have been less, and if there hadn't been an uncharacteristic flow of leaks, we might not even have gotten that.

Before Halo's announcement I think the only thing that had leaked was the title-- and Bungie wasn't even happy about that.

It's like some people want to have their hand held through some miracle of constant ecstasy from the cradle to the grave. If they are let down for even a moment, it's 'How dare you, sir?' I mean, when one fires up Destiny for the first time, are they going to be thinking, 'If only the reveal was worthy of this certain (I did pay money, after all) masterpiece?'

I'd assume not. That's all very ridiculous.

It is odd.

Wouldn't the other way around be worse?

Shouldn't people be more worried about the game not living up to the reveal than the other way around? (I'm looking at you, Earth City demo.)

Underpromise and overdeliver (ninjas on fire notwithstanding). Always leave them wanting more. Bungie knows how this game is played about as well as anyone.

So you're of the opinion that this whole reveal was in direct response to the leaks? Not part of the planned marketing campaign?

I couldn't agree more. My brother and I are just ecstatic that Bungie is working on something new and sharing it with us. We recognize that not a lot was shown, but hey, a little is better than nothing. I compare it with the smells of cooking coming from a kitchen before a delicious feast...or maybe I'm just hungry.

And that masterful snippet of music... I darn near started crying.

So you're of the opinion that this whole reveal was in direct response to the leaks? Not part of the planned marketing campaign?

It's difficult to say.

I'm sure some people would point to the day and date as evidence of pre-planning, but the thing about those kind of coincidences is that you can arrange one however you'd like. I'm sure Bungie can plan a seven reference around any time period they'd choose. I certainly think that a reveal was planned at some point, and the material we got was planned to be part of it. I think the idea that the reveal was mostly story background and concept art is consistent with the idea that it was moved up earlier than planned, either in response to the leaks, in response to the idea that the release window is being delayed from Fall 2013 to early 2014-- to try and avoid too long a dark/quiet period.

The contracts leaked, and Bungie said nothing. Some concept art leaked, and Bungie released... one piece of concept art.

The announcement could be in response to a lot of things, the leak is just one of them. Activision certainly would like to see some enthusiasm built up, even if Bungie would prefer (and I'm not saying they would) to say nothing until release day.

The level of second-guessing that seems to go on around product announcement just strikes me as very weird. You should have said more! You should have said nothing! Your game is all hype and no substance! No PC release means... actually I don't know what significance whatsoever that is supposed to have, except the idea of there not being one really pisses some people off.

Even with relatively little information out there it's tough for Bungie to get the press to stay on message. I have seen in gaming press articles since Sunday:

Destiny is an MMO.

Destiny is not an MMO.

Destiny will have microtransactions.

Destiny will not have microtransactions.

Destiny will come out this year, probably.

Destiny will not come out this year, probably.

Destiny will come out on current gen consoles

Destiny will come out on next-gen consoles.

Destiny will come out on current and next-gen consoles, but not on PC.

Destiny will come out on PC, but not until later.

I find the idea that a reveal needs to be equal to the game a bit backwards. The game needs to equal the reveal.

Here here!

It's like some people want to have their hand held through some miracle of constant ecstasy from the cradle to the grave.

You have somewhat missed the point. This is not about griping because a person wished to see more than that which was shown. It is about whether what was shown did a good enoigh job of communicating the central points of the game such that there isn't any unhelpful and incorrect speculation in the absence of assertions to the contrary.

I'm of the opinion that this was planned this way all along. It seems similar to the Halo 3 reveal where the press got to see Bungie fly the camera around the Chief and the New Mombassa portal scene but nothing more. I mean, the ViDoc was as well done as ever. The arg was clever and well written. The website was finished and had its new look come online for the reveal. The iOS app was released the same day (something that Apple doesn't make easy with the whole uncertainty of the review process and all). The store had all the new Destiny stuff ready to go. And the big one, they are taking preorders. Maybe all of this stuff can be completed quickly to plug the leaks or whatever, but I don't think they'd start taking preorders if this was just a response to the leaks.

I also think we WILL see Destiny in 2013. It just seems too odd to me for them to accept preorders more than a year out. Maybe it has something to do with next-gen consoles, but that just makes it odder. Are 360 and NeXtBoX 720 and PS3 and PS4 titles all going to cost $60 all at the same time? I actually have never owned two (working) generations of consoles at once so I'm not sure how they price the same game across two generations…

Not sure if you were here in the really early days of Halo - but this is how Bungie operates. We knew almost nothing - and in fact, by the time it actually launched, what we DID know in those early days was all wrong.

I wasn't on HBO back around the time of the Macworld demo, but I do remember it well (and for oddly different reasons: I was always very interested in Apple's keynotes, so it was just weird coincidence that Jason Jones happened to present there). But this is the first time since then that Bungie has done a completely greenfield presentation. Times have certainly changed, and I'm sure Bungie think about how to do a reveal differently, but the Halo reveal gave us several minutes of in-engine footage. A lot changed subsequently, but it's a lot easier to pin down a game when you can see something moving in-engine like that. (Although I'm still sad we never got to get Covenant to surrender by holding a gun to their head).

Not sure why this is doing the game a disservice - it's absolutely the first time they've talked about it, but it won't be the last.

Bungie's reveal doesn't exist in a vacuum. As you mention, the previous leaks led people to draw some conclusions about the nature of the game which have now apparently turned out to be false, and yet … they're still not clarifying certain points related to the gameplay mechanics. Lots of the press coverage makes unsubtle reference to the fact journalists asked for clarification there, but Bungie wouldn't comment. I find it odd that press would be invited to an event and then when they ask questions most of them Bungie aren't prepared to be drawn on (in fact, my experience of the tech industry is that this usually happens only when a company starts to court the press before they're really ready to).

If you're going with the assertion that first impressions are everything... well, Bungie has ALWAYS disagreed with that.

I'm not sure where you got that from. My own opinions and impressions were absent from the original post above. I'm curious but I also feel I don't know enough to conclude anything, yet. Knowing nearly nothing about gameplay mechanics for a game tends to inhibit that.

Six months ago, people screamed that the leaked contract proved that Destiny would be a subscription-based MMO, and that they were walking away and not coming back. Bungie kept their mouths shut, and let that rumor fester. It got blown out of the water on Wednesday - and for folks who are actually paying attention, just that little fact should be enough to make them think twice about assumptions and what it means when they're not refuted by the company.

I would comprehensively disagree that they blew it out of the water; they said ‘It's not an MMO’, and yet almost every article written about it centred on the word. In fact if you read Eurogamer's preview you'd be forgiven for thinking they had said the game was an MMO. And this is from people who were at the press event! This is probably my central issue with how they've approached the reveal: this very important distinction about how the game works is still a source of contention and speculation, and Bungie have done very little (besides the refutation) to guide people in the direction of what it actually is. The impression I've formed is of an action game with MMO-like gameplay, but rather than large realm-based populations it uses matchmaking and (say, Xbox Live) friends-based party to populate the gameworld. But maybe that's wrong, too? I've more questions than answers at this point.

I'm of the opinion that this was planned this way all along. It seems similar to the Halo 3 reveal where the press got to see Bungie fly the camera around the Chief and the New Mombassa portal scene but nothing more.

Every single Halo reveal post Macworld 1999 was done to an audience who knew somewhat of what to expect. When talking about the Halo sequels, the core fundamentals of the gameplay were already known: at this point you can say that a reveal sets out two sets of expectation: story and visuals. Everything else is easy enough to fill in.

I haven't yet read every new DBO post since Destiny was announced, but I've read a few. Kapow's post above is pretty much how I'm feeling. The nebulous information is cute for a while, but at this point I just have literally no idea what Destiny is. And that makes it hard for me to be excited about it. In fact, pre-announcement, I was so psyched. Now, post-announcement, I'm just left bemused. Somehow I know less about Destiny now than I did before.

Hey, Bungie has never disappointed me when I've had my doubts (except for Reach's story; let's be honest). So I'm not just cautiously optimistic. I'm extremely optimistic. But only because I know Bungie's track record. I can easily imagine that if I were just a fair-weather fan, I'd be completely turned off by the underwhelming announcement.

As to Levi's point. I don't think I'm owed anything by Bungie. As far as I'm concerned, they could keep Destiny a complete secret until launch day, and I'd still play it. But when they build hype, even starting from the 10th anniversary ViDoc, up until the ARG and DeeJ's official announcement of the announcement, naturally I feel let down if it doesn't pay off. This has always been my problem with Bungie's PR (tradition be damned). It's one thing to release tiny details slowly. It's another to say "We have some really juicy details coming soon©™®!" And then, months later, we get an very small tease of something... that's just annoying. It's not an interesting or effective way to build hype imho. Imagine if Willy Wonka had announced he was going to open his factory up to 5 lucky kids, and when the day came, he gave them a grand tour of the parking lot.

You know I'll still love you forever and like you for always, Bungie. But come on.

But come on.

Agreed. I think the ViDoc was actually pretty good for an intro to Destiny, but I totally understand where you are coming from. The crumb sized releases of information can get frustrating. Like the height of the Halo 3 weekly updates which were sometimes nothing more than teases with tiny snippets of information and fake censoring of more juicy details. There are points where I feel like I'm a game developer's play thing, to be toyed with, when I'm the one paying the bills. I'm not asking for everything up front, or week to week progress reports that would confuse me and everyone else who doesn't understand how chaotic game development can be. But the announce, spend a lot of words each week to say nothing, actually show the first bit of solid stuff at E3 months later, and then finally ramp up marketing just before release is frustrating. Exciting too sometimes, but I'd rather see solid information at a slightly more frequent every once in a while with periods of darkness in between than get a constant stream of useless words with just one or two chunks of real info at press events and gaming conventions I can't attend.

Underpromise and overdeliver (ninjas on fire notwithstanding). Always leave them wanting more. Bungie knows how this game is played about as well as anyone.

They aren't really under promising. We're being told it'll be something completely new, unlike anything we've ever played. That's a huge statement. Once you say something like that, you're in trouble if it turns out to be not that different than the other MMO FPS type games out there already.

This is pretty much how I've been feeling as well. All of this would be way, way more exciting if I hadn't seen the numerous leaks - details of the setting and story, especially.

As it stands now, I already knew a lot of the info that was revealed this week. It was nice seeing a few clips of gameplay and hearing from the various bungie personalities again, but about half of the vidoc was a (admittedly cool-sounding) voiceover explaining the basic plot that we already know and slow pans over concept art we've already seen.

That's the risks of looking at leaks, I guess. Still, I feel like, if I were at bungie a few months ago, looking at the various leaks, I'd be advocating really vamping up the reveal in response. Put together a gameplay video or something, anything. I'm still very optimistic about the game, but as people have said, that's largely based on my faith in Bungie. Most of the responses I've seen from non-fans has ranged from "Huh, kinda cool I guess" through to "meh" (with a few smatterings of "screw this game!" but that was more due to the lack of a PC option and a certain quote from Jason Jones).

Bungie is not at all afraid to let people make fools of themselves saying ridiculous things that don't turn out to be true, or even relevant. In fact, I'd say most of the speculation that's really negative and/or off base seems to be coming from the "it isn't relevant if it isn't on PC" crowd. The vitriol I'm seeing spewed in Jason Jones' direction for stating something that I thought was not only innocuous, but fairly obvious at this point, is truly staggering.

I agree, this makes up a lot of the negative comments I've seen. It's really frustrating to read. People are so quick to assume the worst, and the fact that several of the gaming news outlets have been fuelling the fire.

I'm also kind of frustrated with Jones too, though, for not realising how that line would be misinterpreted.

- No text -

I'm also kind of frustrated with Jones too, though, for not realising how that line would be misinterpreted.

Is this the quote you're talking about?

now nobody plays shooters the way they used to play them before Halo ’cause nobody wants to

…because I agree, and I think anyone getting wound up by it is deluding themselves. Prior to Halo's arrival almost every PC FPS games had manual saving, a machine-gun > shotgun > pistol weapon upgrade flow and dull, mostly deathmatch-based multiplayer. Nobody's releasing FPS games like that any more because they'd be a disaster in the marketplace, as the audience has evolved and refined its tastes where FPS games are concerned.

I dunno, maybe that's not the quote that's caused such consternation? I'm finding it hard to see what's controversial about it…

That's the quote, but it's the sentence before that that caused the backlash:

We limited players to two weapons, we gave them recharging health, we automatically saved and restored the game -- almost heretical things to first-person shooters at the time. We made the game run without a mouse and keyboard. And now nobody plays shooters the way they used to play them before Halo 'cause nobody wants to.

The interpretation many people and some blogs have of this is that he's saying "no-one plays shooters with keyboard and mouse anymore, because halo rendered that obsolete", which is obviously not the case. We all know it wasn't what he meant, but you know the internet...

I also think we WILL see Destiny in 2013. It just seems too odd to me for them to accept preorders more than a year out. Maybe it has something to do with next-gen consoles, but that just makes it odder. Are 360 and NeXtBoX 720 and PS3 and PS4 titles all going to cost $60 all at the same time? I actually have never owned two (working) generations of consoles at once so I'm not sure how they price the same game across two generations…

Even despite the Activision PR that basically said "no don't even think about it"?

I'm curious... what would Bungie, or rather Activision, have to say in order to dissuade you?

The interpretation many people and some blogs have of this is that he's saying "no-one plays shooters with keyboard and mouse anymore, because halo rendered that obsolete", which is obviously not the case. We all know it wasn't what he meant, but you know the internet...

I feel for Jason. That's wilful misinterpretation in my book.

Underpromise and overdeliver (ninjas on fire notwithstanding). Always leave them wanting more. Bungie knows how this game is played about as well as anyone.

They aren't really under promising. We're being told it'll be something completely new, unlike anything we've ever played. That's a huge statement. Once you say something like that, you're in trouble if it turns out to be not that different than the other MMO FPS type games out there already.

That's very true, but I'm sort of separating the vague "ninja on fire" sort of claims that we can't possibly judge at this point and therefore may be overpromising, with the actual assets we're looking at.

For instance, if we'd been shown an Earth City like demo, or a complete cutscene, or something like the "gameplay demo" of Aliens: Colonial Marines-- and then the actual released product had fallen far short of the promise of that experience, that would be overpromising and under-delivering in the context I mean-- by presenting a video and saying "this is gameplay" and then finding out that your gameplay experience isn't like that, and your game engine doesn't look like that.

All we have is concept art, a few seconds of characters running, some character and gun models... and some vague claims about social connections and ambitious goals. I don't even think it can be evaluated yet.

So we've got potential overpromises in terms of Destiny's scope and success, but underpromising with regards to specificity about production values and gameplay details.

I'm comfortable with that. Yes, if this doesn't become "bigger than Halo" I suppose you could say they'll have egg on their faces. But that'd be true whether they said anything about it or not, so why not swing for the fences anyway?

Although... ninjas.. ninjas on fire. I suppose ambition counts for a lot :)

So we've got potential overpromises in terms of Destiny's scope and success, but underpromising with regards to specificity about production values and gameplay details.

That's fair and reasonable — I can completely understand any game developer's reluctance to commit to a level of visual fidelity early on and then for that to eventually emerge to be technically unfeasible (hell, Bungie know this one very well already, after what happened with Halo 2). But I think the lack of detail that has led to confusion largely surrounds high-level concepts which are very unlikely to change between now and release. Think about it in terms of elevator pitch: how would you describe this game to an investor, or perhaps in the opening paragraph of a Kickstarter? Right now, based on what we've been told, I really don't think I could do that for Destiny, which seems very odd for a game which is probably no more than around 12 months from release.

That's the quote, but it's the sentence before that that caused the backlash:

We limited players to two weapons, we gave them recharging health, we automatically saved and restored the game -- almost heretical things to first-person shooters at the time. We made the game run without a mouse and keyboard. And now nobody plays shooters the way they used to play them before Halo 'cause nobody wants to.

The interpretation many people and some blogs have of this is that he's saying "no-one plays shooters with keyboard and mouse anymore, because halo rendered that obsolete", which is obviously not the case. We all know it wasn't what he meant, but you know the internet...

Well, think about it this way. FPS games used to be a minority on consoles. About the only one prior to Halo that seems to have been well thought of was Goldeneye. Consoles were thought of as best for fighting games and platformers, not for shooters-- and for JRPGs but not so-called "Western" RPGs.

So FPS players on consoles have gone, over the decade that spans the Halo franchise, from being a very small minority to being a majority. The argument is about how much of a majority. Take a look at RockPaperShotgun, a site I enjoy reading even though I do more gaming on consoles since Halo, because they do good coverage of games that just happen to come out on PCs and consoles. But their raison d'etre is the PC platform, and how developers and publishers ignore it (or even sleight it) at their peril, and how the failure of crossplatform titles is the fault of developers who make crappy ports, and how piracy isn't relevant.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/02/18/mouse-keyboard-still-a-major-player-in-fps-market/

This article bends over backwards and pulls numbers right out of the author's nether parts to prove that Jones' vague generalization-- that shooters are not like they were ten years ago, for these specific reasons-- and turn it into an unjustified slight on the presumed legions of mouse and keyboard players.

He starts off with the huge disparity in NPD sales figures between Black Ops on consoles and on PC. Apparently in its first month, that title sold 8 million on Xbox 360 and PS3 combined, and a paltry 400,000 on PC.

And then come the buts. Only includes the US (only includes the US for both console and PC, like all NPD figures). Unreported digital sales. Piracy. (Why developers and publishers are supposed to give a damn about the mouse and keyboard market share represented by pirates is really beyond me.)

He goes through a laundry list of less popular games, demonstrating that at the lower end of the sales figures, the gap between consoles and PC closes from a gaudy 16:1 to 3:1, and somehow arrives at the figure that almost-- ALMOST-- half of FPS players worldwide are using mouse and keyboard. It is a figure he has made up from whole cloth, and even so, he could not get to parity, even when including pirates.

Never mind that mouse and keyboard use was only part of what Jones was talking about-- and yes, if he'd thought about it a bit more, perhaps he could have phrased it the way I think he meant it, which is that pre-Halo the market was leery about shooters using controllers. That is absolutely no longer the case. Even the RPS article admits that more than half of FPS players are using controllers, which was certainly not the case 10-15 years ago.

But no, Jason Jones has mocked our near religious devotion to the Microsoft platform that wasn't really made for gaming.

I really have a hard time wrapping my head around it. The Linux gaming advocates I can understand-- they just oppose companies like Microsoft and Sony in all their forms. But what the heck the objection is from people who are gaming on Windows is... I just don't get it. There's obviously some kind of brain chemical that is being dispensed when people get a kick out of believing it somehow matters that their aiming is more accurate, that they are sitting closer to a monitor with more pixels, and their rendering pipelines are more buzzword compliant.

The PC has its advantages-- most of them, as far as I can see, have to do with mods. I just have a difficult time reaching from there to a point where Jones' slightly misworded sentence about FPS games turns into a personal insult. Oh well.

And people wonder why the guy doesn't spend a lot of time talking to the press. Sheesh.

I would comprehensively disagree that they blew it out of the water; they said ‘It's not an MMO’, and yet almost every article written about it centred on the word. In fact if you read Eurogamer's preview you'd be forgiven for thinking they had said the game was an MMO. And this is from people who were at the press event!

Right near the top of Eurogamer's preview is a paragraph that contains these sentences:

Activision Publishing boss Eric Hirshberg says it's not an MMO. No, it most definitely is not an MMO.

But yes, you're right, the rest of the article spends a lot of time comparing what the writer saw to MMOs.

I guess what I have trouble with is the fact that you're blaming Bungie for the writers' inability to find a way to explain what he saw in terms that don't include 'MMO'.

The presentation started with a really simple sentence:

"We're building a shooter."

For me, that set the tone of the rest of the 90 minutes or whatever - apparently, for others, it was ignored as they tried to tie together what they were seeing (which they were told, over and over again, was different from existing genres) to what they know.

I look at it this way: Myth was a Real Time Strategy game. However, it had a twist that no other game had ever done, a twist that made Myth completely different from everything that came before it - it was an RTS without resource management.

This was big enough that many people, looking back, don't classify Myth as an RTS.

But in the beginning... that's what it was called.

I think Destiny is a shooter with deeply-integrated social aspects. This is a genre that doesn't have many examples - so for now, people are comparing it to other games with deeply-integrated social aspects... like MMOs. Doesn't make it an MMO, though.

I guess what I have trouble with is the fact that you're blaming Bungie for the writers' inability to find a way to explain what he saw in terms that don't include 'MMO'.

If it were an isolated example, and there weren't other articles where the author felt that the lack of clarity on what Destiny is was worthy of remark, then maybe it would be unfair to put the onus on Bungie here. But that's not the case. And within this forum several others have remarked on feeling confused and uncertain over exactly what the nature of the game will be.

I think Destiny is a shooter with deeply-integrated social aspects. This is a genre that doesn't have many examples - so for now, people are comparing it to other games with deeply-integrated social aspects... like MMOs. Doesn't make it an MMO, though.

Yeah, it'll be a shooter. That's not really mutually exclusive with it being an MMO though, as games like Planetside have demonstrated. Perhaps the problem is that what some (most?) people think an MMO is, is really just a highly-distilled codification of the mechanics of games like World of Warcraft, where you have features like levelling up, gear upgrades, quests, player stats and a large-scale co-operative endgame. Will Destiny have these things? Really, right now, it's anyone's guess (although I did notice that player stats were visible on the iPhone app you see in the ViDoc).

My interpretation of what Destiny will be is something akin to a cross between Firefight and Spartan Ops, but with the addition of an open world to explore, populated by players all over the world, all using matchmaking to bring people in from console-based online services. The label Massively-multiplayer online really doesn't seem like a bad description for this.

I also think we WILL see Destiny in 2013. It just seems too odd to me for them to accept preorders more than a year out. Maybe it has something to do with next-gen consoles, but that just makes it odder. Are 360 and NeXtBoX 720 and PS3 and PS4 titles all going to cost $60 all at the same time? I actually have never owned two (working) generations of consoles at once so I'm not sure how they price the same game across two generations…

Even despite the Activision PR that basically said "no don't even think about it"?

I'm curious... what would Bungie, or rather Activision, have to say in order to dissuade you?

I'm not delusional! I swear! I'm just holding out a bunch of hope. :)

I'm of the opinion that this was planned this way all along. It seems similar to the Halo 3 reveal where the press got to see Bungie fly the camera around the Chief and the New Mombassa portal scene but nothing more. I mean, the ViDoc was as well done as ever. The arg was clever and well written. The website was finished and had its new look come online for the reveal. The iOS app was released the same day (something that Apple doesn't make easy with the whole uncertainty of the review process and all). The store had all the new Destiny stuff ready to go. And the big one, they are taking preorders. Maybe all of this stuff can be completed quickly to plug the leaks or whatever, but I don't think they'd start taking preorders if this was just a response to the leaks.

All very good points. It doesn't really make sense that all of those things would have been hurriedly thrown together.

Maybe it has something to do with next-gen consoles, but that just makes it odder.

I doubt it. Starting the pre-orders now with the intention of selling the next-gen copies doesn't really jive - people would still have to switch their pre-orders to the next-gen versions once those were announced.

I've more questions than answers at this point.

THAT is the fun part!

Let's say your friend introduces you to this girl named Destiny (okay... so it sounds a little like a stripper name or something, but whatever, she's really cute and you know you're friend has good taste...). You get her name, a general gist, and of course now you know what she looks like.

It's perfectly natural to have more questions than answers at this point. That's part of the fun of courting her, part of the fun of looking forward to the next date with her. What mysteries does she hold? Is what you think of her accurate or will she continue to surprise you? Maybe you'll find out you've got a ton of shared interests, maybe she'll make you love things you've never heard of.

But if you try to rush things or pry, you're gonna do a disservice to the both of ya. And if you listen to your jerk friends who like to insult every relationship you're in, you're also going to screw this up for yourself.

And if you end up wanting to spend your money on a ring and marry her and dedicate your free time to her - you still wouldn't want to know all the mysteries up front. You'd still want to be surprised years down the road, I think.

To be satisfied with answers is never exciting - the questions are the journey. Never have more answers than questions!

The impression I've formed is of an action game with MMO-like gameplay, but rather than large realm-based populations it uses matchmaking and (say, Xbox Live) friends-based party to populate the gameworld. But maybe that's wrong, too?

FWIW that's what I'm getting so far as well.

Absolutely.

But this situation is more like if your friend built her up as a girl that'll put out after a week, and after a week all she does is hold your hand.

Teases are fantastic and wonderful and have their place. But I think we who feel underwhelmed rightly assumed that Bungie was ramping up to something more than a tease. Given their track record, maybe that was foolish. Given how any other company would announce something, I think it was a totally sane assumption. But, like I said in another post, that's the one thing that always annoyed the piss out of me with Bungie.

343's openness was such a breath of fresh air, regardless of my final thoughts on Halo 4. I really loved being told "We have something really juicy and neat to tell you next week" and then have them actually tell me something juicy and neat next week.

Absolutely.

But this situation is more like if your friend built her up as a girl that'll put out after a week, and after a week all she does is hold your hand.

But what if we took what our friend said with a grain of salt, knowing that he wasn't actually in a relationship her yet; so everything he says is hearsay, essentially. Perhaps his words increase hope (though, I'd prefer her to hold my hand instead of put out :P), and expectations remain consistent with we actually know of her. I wouldn't necessarily put weight on what my friend says about a girl; it might influence my opinion of her, but I would set any expectations on that... but that's just me.

We're still talking about Destiny, right?

Listen, the point is we're not upset about the amount of information they released. It's about how much they released in context to how they've been ramping up.

Here's my summed argument (or beef rather. I'm not really arguing that you guys should feel this way. Just explaining why I and others do): Building hype is great. Teases are great. But building hype for a tease is an oxymoron, and unfortunately it's always been Bungie's MO.

The amount of TF2 I play is directly related to the moment I discovered you could use the XBOX 360 controller.

Remind me not to post that fact on RPS. ;)

But seriously, I know I'm just one guy and therefore not statistically significant, but I remember thinking 'gotta play TF2 with mouse and keyboard - it's better!' before my brain kicked me in the butt with, 'Who cares? You don't like it.'

Dogma is a real problem out there.

It's like some people want to have their hand held through some miracle of constant ecstasy from the cradle to the grave.

You have somewhat missed the point. This is not about griping because a person wished to see more than that which was shown. It is about whether what was shown did a good enoigh job of communicating the central points of the game such that there isn't any unhelpful and incorrect speculation in the absence of assertions to the contrary.

I speaking more generally at that point - apologies for any offense.

I'm still reading the thread, so maybe this has already been answered by you or someone else, but what's wrong with unhelpful or incorrect speculation? There is typically a lot of that with Bungie, and I think we're smart enough to move on once we know what is and isn't correct.

Listen, the point is we're not upset about the amount of information they released. It's about how much they released in context to how they've been ramping up.

Wait, really?

There was a 5-day ramp-up to this reveal. You heard NOTHING from them before last Tuesday... and then you were presented with a fun (but not particularly complicated) mini-ARG.

To use your own analogy, it's as though you're assuming that the date you're on is going to put out because you can see a little cleavage over the dinner table. It's YOU who are misjudging... not Bungie.

Listen, the point is we're not upset about the amount of information they released. It's about how much they released in context to how they've been ramping up.

Here's my summed argument (or beef rather. I'm not really arguing that you guys should feel this way. Just explaining why I and others do): Building hype is great. Teases are great. But building hype for a tease is an oxymoron, and unfortunately it's always been Bungie's MO.

I didn't think anything was coming until last week, when the ARG started. And it was a pretty simple, short, straightforward ARG (and to please thebruce, not an ARG at all really, heh). And for a bit I thought the ARG was going to be the reward in itself. We got a bunch of mysterious clues and a sample of music. Pretty neat stuff!

And then bam, we got a bunch of beautiful concept art that revealed a lot more about Destiny's setting. I thought THAT had to be it.

And then we got a ViDoc - and not just one that looked behind the scenes, but one with motion-altered concept art and a narrator setting up the premise of the game.

And, most surprisingly to me, we got in-game footage

Rarely do we see that with any first announcement for a game, and moreso its the first time I've ever seen Bungie do that while I've been a fan the last decade.

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Wait, really?

There was a 5-day ramp-up to this reveal. You heard NOTHING from them before last Tuesday...

Oh, come on. You can't say that with a straight face to anyone who's been remotely paying attention, here of all places. We knew Bungie was working on a game called Destiny at least two years ago. The hints were there even longer, but they were certainly nodding and winking to the fans with their O Brave New World ViDoc 18 months ago. This reveal has been a long time coming.

A ViDoc was what I expected at most. I imagine it could have been less, and if there hadn't been an uncharacteristic flow of leaks, we might not even have gotten that.

Before Halo's announcement I think the only thing that had leaked was the title-- and Bungie wasn't even happy about that.

Halo 4's reveal said absolutely... nothing. We had to wait to see Halo again, but then it was a gameplay demo. It was annoying, but not confusing - there was a clear separation between when we knew something, and when we didn't

I feel like what made the Vidoc disorienting was that it was somewhere in-between. The plot information was about right, but the gameplay aspect was talked about, but not in a way where we could really understand what they meant.

I'm not complaining about getting more information (and I enjoyed the Vidoc), but it felt a little off to me, too.

Wait, really?

There was a 5-day ramp-up to this reveal. You heard NOTHING from them before last Tuesday...

Oh, come on. You can't say that with a straight face to anyone who's been remotely paying attention, here of all places. We knew Bungie was working on a game called Destiny at least two years ago. The hints were there even longer, but they were certainly nodding and winking to the fans with their O Brave New World ViDoc 18 months ago. This reveal has been a long time coming.

Now you're being disingenuous.

I was responding to Ibeechu's complaint that the ramp-up of hype didn't justify Sunday's reveal - and you respond that t-shirt sightings and in-game posters that could mean ANYTHING should be considered developer hype?

Now it's ME rolling my eyes.

The puzzle released last week was hype. Jonty Barnes showing up in a Seven Seraphs shirt for a ping-pong game with the Penny Arcade crew is NOT hype.

Please point out the 'hype' you're talking about, the 'hype' generated by Bungie that culminated in Sunday's reveal. Thanks.

The puzzle released last week was hype. Jonty Barnes showing up in a Seven Seraphs shirt for a ping-pong game with the Penny Arcade crew is NOT hype.

We don't even know what the Seven Seraphs are, they're selling t-shirts for them, and you don't think this is hype? I think our definitions of that word differ somewhat.

The puzzle released last week was hype. Jonty Barnes showing up in a Seven Seraphs shirt for a ping-pong game with the Penny Arcade crew is NOT hype.

We don't even know what the Seven Seraphs are, they're selling t-shirts for them, and you don't think this is hype? I think our definitions of that word differ somewhat.

lol - they're not selling t-shirts for them. You can't buy a Seven Seraphs shirt.

But yeah, we clearly have different definitions of hype.

You should read the Matt Soell article currently on the front page. It sums up my feelings on the subject really nicely - Matt is, and always has been, a better writer than I am.

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lol - they're not selling t-shirts for them. You can't buy a Seven Seraphs shirt.

Ah right, I didn't realise that. I must have confused it for one of the various other Destiny t-shirts they were selling prior to announcing they were working on a game called Destiny.

Thanks for sharing that article, summarizes exactly how I feel. Brought back memories too, Cortan Letters, that was so long ago.

The amount of TF2 I play is directly related to the moment I discovered you could use the XBOX 360 controller.

Remind me not to post that fact on RPS. ;)

But seriously, I know I'm just one guy and therefore not statistically significant, but I remember thinking 'gotta play TF2 with mouse and keyboard - it's better!' before my brain kicked me in the butt with, 'Who cares? You don't like it.'

Dogma is a real problem out there.

I hear you. As a Mac fan-- who also spent a lot of time in the mouse/keyboard argument before Halo's release-- I've been a victim of it as well.

There was a 5-day ramp-up to this reveal. You heard NOTHING from them before last Tuesday... and then you were presented with a fun (but not particularly complicated) mini-ARG.

Also, it wasn't an ARG* :P

* not in the traditional sense at least, nor arguably in a common sense; labeling it "ARG" could also be used as a reason why it was hyped more. 'OMG ARG! Ilovebees! Iris! Big reveal!' -- It was a series of web-based puzzles revealing poetic and cryptic themed exposition about the game's universe.
/mini-rant

I didn't think anything was coming until last week, when the ARG started. And it was a pretty simple, short, straightforward ARG (and to please thebruce, not an ARG at all really, heh). And for a bit I thought the ARG was going to be the reward in itself. We got a bunch of mysterious clues and a sample of music. Pretty neat stuff!

LOL! I read this right after I post my mini-rant about it not being an ARG. haha, you know me too well :P

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Ok, not *NM* :)

Didn't want to incite any debates or ill will. It is what it is :)
just not an arg :P

and yep, I know *NM* means nothing now, heh