I feel like a lot of it could be solved if you can't freeze supers. Or if you can, but you can't really do any damage with the super.

The freeze effect is already significantly reduced against enemies in their supers. I've been frozen a number of times in Golden Gun or Tether and was able to break out nearly instantly and continue to use my super.

That’s not what I meant. I’m not calling you an idiot, that was a general you. I am sorry. My language is harsh, and I understand how it’s read that way.

I mean that this is a game almost explicitly designed to make people feel better than they are. That includes me. I’m not anywhere near top tier at this game. I’ve never gone Flawless and I don’t really expect to.

My point is that this discussion is silly to begin with. Destiny is not a game that is well considered from a competitive perspective. I don’t think it’s supposed to be. It’s a game that is focused around the mid-tier, of not quite the lowest common denominator. The amount of tracking that nearly every ability has is very generous. Shoulder charge can turn what feels like 90 degrees to hit someone who should have been well clear. Dodge is basically an instant leave button to get around corners and behind cover. Celestial Fire can damn near cross map people and Handheld Supernova still feels cheap.

Mid-level Destiny doesn’t feel like play, counter play—it’s a bunch of monkeys running around taking turns hitting their own brand of instant wins at each other until one side has managed to do it more.

What?

Shoulder charge is a mostly brain dead ability, assuming even a base level of awareness and competence. The only real risk to it is that the person you’re charging might have a shotgun. That’s it. Unless you’re an idiot and try to charge from way too far away. It’s not that difficult to charge unassuming players from unexpected angles and get basically free kills.

Wow. I didn't think you a dick, but that was a complete dick statement. I know you are a better player than most of us here cheapLEY, but wow.

I keep wanting to respond to this with how I feel, but I'm going to just take some time now. I might voice my opinion later.

I changed my mind: if stasis is ruining the fun of shoulder charging Titans, it’s perfect.

Edit: That’s not really a dig at Titans. Dodge is a completely brain dead get out of jail free button most of the time. Destiny is a chaotic shitshow that’s based around making players feel cool when they do stuff, is not a game built around tightly designed ability interaction. It’s a game filled with instant win buttons, and we should stop pretending otherwise, even if it had achieved some semblance of “balance.” Each class having an equal distribution of instant win abilities isn’t the same thing as it being well considered or well designed for competitive play. I’m not even arguing that should be the goal. But damn near no ability in the game is high-risk, high-reward. At best they’re medium-risk, high-reward, and most are low-risk, high-reward.

So first of all, I should say that I think there’s some “lost in translation” going on here. Cheapley is genuinely one of the nicest dudes I’ve played with. At the risk of putting words in his mouth, I certainly took his statement with the tone of a guy who is chatting amongst friends, and not as intentionally critical or dismissive. Could just be me, but I don’t get ruffled by the “brain dead” comments and stuff like that because I think those are the kind of mistakes that almost all Destiny players make from time to time. Heck, I do it way more than just about anyone (with the possible exception of Korny). This is a tangent, but I had a moment way back in Halo 2 when I was playing a 1-flag game where the flag is in the ruins of an old base, and there’s a window right in the front that you can jump through to land on the flag (was it called Boneyard?). My entire team was leaping in through that window and dying instantly, and sure enough I jumped in and was gunned down right away. One of the guys I was playing with said “why the hell did you do that? You just watched 3 of our teammates all jump in and die, so why the hell would you do it too?” I was struck by how obviously correct he was, and yet my instincts in the heat of the moment we’re screaming “GO GO GO”. I think of that often because all these years later, I still do it constantly, lol.

That said, to address your point; again, I do think there is some truth to what you’re saying. Shoulder charge involves getting right up close to the enemy, and as such there’s a certain amount of risk involved. Certainly more risk than many other abilities in D2. But to push back a little, I actually do agree with Cheapley’s point that none of the abilities in D2 are particularly high risk. Between the often claustrophobic maps and the levels of mobility our guardians have and the general chaos that often goes on in a crucible match, closing the gap and getting up close to the enemy is often quite doable. I mean, look at this:

Granted, I’m using an exotic that instantly refills my melee charge, but still... thats a lot of kills XD

Again, to your point, there are certain maps where that kind of play style is far less likely to work, but not many IMO.

Destiny is a chaotic shitshow that’s based around making players feel cool when they do stuff, is not a game built around tightly designed ability interaction. It’s a game filled with instant win buttons, and we should stop pretending otherwise, even if it had achieved some semblance of “balance.” Each class having an equal distribution of instant win abilities isn’t the same thing as it being well considered or well designed for competitive play. I’m not even arguing that should be the goal. But damn near no ability in the game is high-risk, high-reward. At best they’re medium-risk, high-reward, and most are low-risk, high-reward.

This is always an interesting conversation to have, but I feel like it's worth acknowledging that in actuality, there's still a massive gap between low level and high level play in Destiny. I've always felt like I'm somewhere in the middle of possible skill level, as I play games in Trials where we instantly 5-0 teams, and then we run into teams that instantly 5-0 us.

So yeah, when two teams of relatively equal skill sometimes it feels like just random crap is happening, but at the end of the day I know there's something (what it was, maybe I don't know) that I could have done better to win, because I've played players that did it.

The comparison I always come back to is Mario Kart. MK does several things to make races between players of vaguely similar skill levels a bit closer than a purely skill-based competition would be. There’s the lopsided power up system (better power ups given to drivers that are further behind), and aggressive rubber banding for the AI drivers. But there is a point when the skill gap between players gets wide enough that these mechanics actually start to backfire against the weaker player. A rookie driver might not find the steady stream of speed-boosting power ups all that helpful, as they may lack the skills to properly control their kart while moving faster. They might boost off a ledge or into a wall, or into one of the countless bananas being left behind by the drivers up front. Similarly, rubber-banding AI drivers will be pulled towards the human driver up front, meaning they’ll pull further and further ahead of the rookie driver in the rear.

I think Destiny is a lot like that. All these supers and 1-hit abilities serve to give players of all levels opportunities to do something that makes them feel awesome, but when the skill gap between teams hits a certain point, all those supers and abilities snowball in favour of the stronger team, and lead to an absolute blowout.

What?

Shoulder charge is a mostly brain dead ability, assuming even a base level of awareness and competence. The only real risk to it is that the person you’re charging might have a shotgun. That’s it. Unless you’re an idiot and try to charge from way too far away. It’s not that difficult to charge unassuming players from unexpected angles and get basically free kills.

See, it's hyperbole like this that keeps me out of these discussions.

I was a Titan main (and by 'main' I mean that 90+% of ALL gameplay I participated in, I was a Titan) for the first year of Destiny 1. I'm more spread out now - but I still play my Titan a lot.

And I'm TERRIBLE at shoulder charge. I've tried - it's not that I haven't tried. I'm just not good at it. I don't know of any sites that keep track of stuff like shoulder charge kills... but I'd bet that in D2 Crucible, I've got fewer than 25 (out of nearly 100,000 crucible kills). Again - it's not because I don't WANT to use it. It's not because I don't TRY to use it. It's because for me, it almost never works. I overshoot, I undershoot. I actually HIT my target but don't do enough damage. The ways I fail are far more numerous than the ways I succeed.

I'm not the BEST crucible player out there, but I'm far from the worst - and to have someone tell me that it's a brain-dead ability, providing free kills unless I'm an idiot... well, that just makes me feel bad.

You're wrong. Not partially wrong, not conditionally wrong, just wrong. Period. It is NOT a brain-dead ability. It is NOT free kills. I am living proof of that.

Basically exactly how I felt. Except I get more kills with shoulder charge :D